Hey guys, it's the way, I heard it episode number two, twenty seven, this so called about those safe spaces about, those same spaces. Couple years ago, I wrote a story for the podcast called a safe space and it because I believe that safe spaces by and large, with the exception of one. are a really dangerous myth, and I wanted to make that point, because it's my opinion that the whole safe space mentality, rose from a growing unwillingness to tolerate ideas that we find objectionable in colleges that mentality led to a level of intolerance. That again, just my opinion level of intolerance. That, I think, is completely at odds with our first amendment. We can't, in other words

So at least we shouldn't deal with speech. We find offensive by creating separate spaces where such speeches not allowed. Obviously, I'm not the only one who shares this view. Shortly after I wrote a safe space, a filmmaker named just in folk called to see if I like, to participate in a project that he was directing called no safe space Just then, and I had a great conversation. We agreed that safe spaces are by and large, very bad idea, and a Democratic republic like this one, but just as project was based the belief that there are no safe spaces anywhere at all and my story.

We argued that there was in fact one such place begging the obvious question who is right today, just in focus my guest, and I am delighted to have him on the podcast, because, even though the schedule didn't allow me to participate in no safe spaces, I was able to participate in his next project. A documentary called trading up which I discussed on the pot cast a few weeks ago with my guest Chloe, Hudson, on whom The documentary was based anyway just and I are going to talk about Chloe today and trading up and micro works, but mostly we talk about courage and the difficulty of making projects. Today, like the ones Justin is focused on, will also too thus the differences between a safe space by micro and no safe spaces by just in folk. Let's start with mine. a short story about a man named Roy who fight

We found the safe space he'd, but looking for then we'll catch up with Justin who took a much deeper dive into the unsafe and of the pool episode? Two hundred twenty seven of the way I heard it about those safe spaces. Roy was not a pervert, nor was he deviant. He was just a guy and a department store trying to consummate a simple transaction, but the lady behind the cash register was not convinced. Will there be anything else, sir? Where will you be loitering for the rest of the evening behind a cashier, supercilious, smile, a palpable

wave of judgment, informed her every move like the various clerks who had refused to answer his earlier questions. This woman stared down her nose at the man who had no business in this part of the store or withering gaze. The very definition of disapprobation, please MA, am just put it in the bag and I'll be on my way. Roy Slit, his credit card furtively across the counter the cashier lifted. His items into the air inspecting them displaying them to the women in line behind him. I'm going to need to see some idee, Sir two forms. If you please, why could feel the disapproval buffering him from all sides, as customers and employees collectively wondered how it did generates, had been allowed to creep into a reputable d

my store today. Some might say that those women were triggered by Roy Presence, as well as his purchase. Others might say that Roy was in need of a safe space to explore his personal proclivity in peace, alas, in eighteen, seventy seven there were no safe spaces for men like Roy. Perhaps if there had

sanctuary of some kind Roy would not be divorced, thirteen years later or bankrupt, or publicly humiliated. Maybe if Roy had kept his secret just a little longer, he wouldn't have found himself teetering on the railing of the Golden Gate Bridge on a cool August evening and one thousand nine hundred and ninety three staring through the fog into the swirling water. Two hundred and fifty ft below him funny I'll shame sticks with you, even when there's really nothing to be ashamed of on the ride home from his embarrassing encounter at the women's where department back in nineteen, seventy seven Royce humiliation had turned to anger and his anger and to resolve, surely he was not alone? Surely other men with similar

predictions had suffered the same sanctimonious stairs from disapproving clerks. That was the moment Roy resolve to push back to build a safe space for men like him

Like a lot of entrepreneurs, Royce idea required cash, so we borrowed eighty thousand dollars a lot of money back and nineteen seventy seven, some of it went toward a lease in Palo Alto. Some went toward the hiring of cashiers and clerks with a more tolerant view of men like Roy the rest, went toward merchandise, inventory, insurance advertising all the other stuff that a new business needs to deal with. Well, Roy was right. He was not alone and soon. San Francisco gentlemen were flocking to his safe space spending over five hundred thousand dollars in the first year. You're too, is even better Roy rolled out a catalogue least more space and hired more understanding, clerks clerks, who would never judge a man for asking

and indelicate question. But of course, sales and profits are two very different things, and even with revenue on the rise, Roy was bleeding cash. So when a man named Leslie Wechsler offered raw a million dollars to simply walk away from his idea right, took it back in nineteen. Eighty two million dollars was a lot of money. What happened next, as the oldest story in the world Roy used his windfall to start a brand new business, a business that led to a very public failure, a failure that led to a very public divorce, a divorce that led to a very public bankruptcy, a bankruptcy, the led to a very long walk on a very foggy San Francisco night, which brings us back to the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge we're a lonely and bankrupt.

Entrepreneur named Roy Raymond contemplated the fortune that slipped through his fingers, no, not the million dollars he lost after selling out I'm talking about the money he lost because of the secrets he failed to keep. You see, Leslie Wechsler, the man who purchased Royce Business and nineteen

Eighty two. He didn't see Roy's idea as a safe space for men. He saw it as a place of empowerment for women, so Leslie Wexner made a few tweaks and by one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, just ten years after Roy pocketed, a cool million dollars to save space in Palo Alto was worth two billion dollars. I back in nineteen. Ninety three two billion dollars was a lot of money too much, perhaps for Roy to live with losing we'll, never know for sure. While we can say with certainty, is that Roy entered the ultimate safespace on August 26th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, because in the end Roy Raymond,

keep a secret, a secret, born from his awkward attempt to buy a sexy birthday present for his wife, a secret. He named for a woman who understood that the most enticing fashions were always hidden. Just beneath the outer garments, a queen, named Victoria Secret might have made Roy Raymond a multi billion air, if only it hadn't sent him straight off the Golden Gate Bridge anyway. that's the way I heard there may be no such thing as a completely safe space, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you can to make your home as safe as it can possibly be, and there is no better time to do that and right now, because this week, our friends it simply safe or give my listeners early access to all their black Friday deals. Fifty percent

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A bit more peace of mind. Take advantage is simply safes. Early black Friday deals and get fifty percent off your new home security system by visiting simply safe that calm, slash rural again, that's simply safe that calm, slash role for fifty percent of your entire system. it's hard to know what to say in a moment like this. Just listen to another story, and you want to hop right into the conversation, but once again, the listeners not privy to the last half hour of pure Anjou agony, but would you call it check? It was a nightmarish, but it was was forty minutes. Fun unending, sound checking you. and impersonating a producer now for this podcast for, but for how long, roughly five years, maybe something I've years. Ok, good I want to make that point, because our guest today is just in full was a filmmaker who lives in this world of production and pre production.

And checking the very basics of things, and he just sat here show you start area amount of patients as you, and I a couple of monkeys attempted the fires football into oblivion. Think we ve gotta worked out just and thanks for your patience, how that area, Great, I'm just start by saying, I'm just privilege to join such a well oiled machine addresses you guys what you do it's magic? Really it's! You should be the template for how to do this. I my God, where the two look for something I read the Dana two million four hundred thousand podcast out there and we are consistently in the top like not the top ten. a problem and we're very high up we'll keep it up. Just keep up all this because it's working We encourage people, if you think you can do this, give it a try

somehow or another. We fail every week and yet they come just and they come to listen. I think come to listen to see if were actually gonna pull and other went off, and I don't want to go too far over my skis, but this is the first glimpse optimism. I've had all day long, where you, as are the keystone, cops podcasting, gradual shipments. I've been called worse It's great to see you again when last our paths crossed you were finishing where we were in the midst of a documentary in Nashville right, ray we're out. Nashville filming trading up this, a documentary for Prager you and there was a lot of fun. Didn't you out there with Chloe Hudson and we found some abandoned warehouse somewhere by our railroad yards, like that and filmed and had a great time. It was terrific ban congrats, it's a short doc, barely twenty minutes or so, but the feedback

been great and not enough. You heard but Chloe was on the pod cast a couple of weeks ago when the audio worked again amazing. Everything was reclose. Anything she touches turns the gold. So I can see that amazing man She was incredible. What was it like to director and work with her, because I dont think she had ever done anything at all. Her shortly She doesn't have any sort of like showbiz are hosting experience. I think what happened? Was we became aware of her from micro works from the work that you guys did with her with a scholarship and the I'd read her story and I'd see in her on your profile there on your website and touch. about her and knew that she just was a person that really broke the mould. On being a welder and there's just her appearance and being sort of an instagram inflows Sir, and so we say, just a conversation over zoom with her, and I was struck by how well spoken she was she just as a way of communicating and are not just talking about the

Shoes that she knows about in the work that she does, but any awry the issue. Is she could just way and on and just has, is amazed kind of world view she's a so well studied and for a young person. She does fuck me. A somebody's really special interest had so much to offer again, not just what she does, but just the world in general and why she does she has to take on just about everything and I do it, but let's back up a little bit because you Europe I almost set up an actual filmmaker, and I didn't mean it to sound like that, but I mean you couldn't filmmaker right. You were in the belly of the beast. You were working with some of the matrix stuff and some full on. auctions and now you're in this very different space. Dare I say an unsafe space We talk a little bit about where you came from and what you were doing and why you wound up where you are now right while always want to be a filmmaker and so naturally,

First thing you do, is you moved a Hollywood and you start working on jobs, and I got to the point. to work on some pretty big movies and metal out of people, and it was a good experience. I worked on the matrix, sequels reloaded revolutions. I ordered the incredible hulk, and a number of other films. I worked in a visual effects department and I did it for a while. after a while, I just sort of kind of got tired of being a cog in the wheel and really wanted to impact. I guess the war of ideas and do some different one sort of catalyst for me was as pretty abbot snowboarder, also at the time kind of aid a fearless snowboarder and cautious filmmaker, and it wouldn't hurt myself. Snowboarding blew up my knee my child was on the way, and I think that kind of put me my seat and really made me think about what I wanted to do. Gotta get me serious about what stories. Do I want to tell and for me, because everything coming out of Hollywood and it's true to this end

Out of a native connotation on the idea of America, what is America? What are the principles our founding. Didn't always used to be this way, but it is now, and so I really thought hey what if we could tell stories that, actually promote the idea of Amerika. What this place is liberty, things like that, and that's I gotTA, Meda, my my ambition to tell stories that talked a lot about the american idea, money think that happened because you're so right when you think back to the fifties and Sixtys there was such a and unapologetic pro american granite. Maybe we over reached here and there, but the default position was. This is pretty remarkable country, and we want to make movies the tap into that remark, ability somehow or another that seems to have not only shifted but kind of reversed. it actually has something to do his pipe several factors: politics place.

Into a, but I think the globalism of things in terms of markets has changed storytelling and film making. Where now Hollywood stewed they're, making films not for american audiences there. Maybe and for international audiences and so There is a real keen eye towards hey listen. Is this a story that China is gonna like or something that a play in other men, gets in Europe or South America. These studio executives are making decisions based on what Joe sue in Iowa want to watch their making decisions based on what they can sell to the international market, and I think that does a big role in what types of films are being made? What kind of content is being made? That pledge is one factor, but I think its prior major one Can I just say that will really scary idea that we're trying to appease in some cases our our enemies. Europe and its the almighty dollar. I mean look at everything else, for sports and with Nike what's happening with basketball, I mean, I don't think the entertainment industry is unique to that. I think

the corporate interests here America are thinking outside. Of our borders and how whatever they do plays over there, and so it gives Americans are very different product and it certainly has for movies Yeah, it is scary, and it's like the front in the boiling water. I would leave it to some filmography for her to do a better take down on it, but I bet, if you look from the 60s or the 70s to the 80s, you can probably find the month where things tipped and then all of a sudden we're just in a completely different world and Frank Capra is just a name that maybe a few people remember and John Ford, and you know all of those movies that just really started with the premise of we're good here's. Why your name as a filmmaker first, came across my transom with the project prior to the short Doc with Prager and with Corolla, no safe space

so no say spaces, trying to think of inarticulate way to ask it, because the story that we just played, which I soon you listen to the story of Re Raymond, Riff, yes, this is weird for me just because I wrote that that was a seventy four story in this pod casts a right a couple years ago, when words like trigger and safe spaces were starting to work their way into the culture and at the time, I was trying to be very, very careful I didn't want, slip to show if that makes sense. And I want to say something about what I believe is the futility of the safe space movement, and I did it through the story of Where is secret? At the same time, you are hitting the nail very squarely on the head and asking me to participate in that project in hindsight just wanted to tell you I wish I would have because the state are higher than I realized, but talk about that movie a little bit what it meant for you and what it was like to work with those guys,

Sure to your defence you're, pretty busy guided time, I'm ever that you, like five shows going on at once, so you an excuse for not being in no safe spaces. I will hold that against, but thank you in terms you story there. I'm sure you know the fact that you tell story about women's underwear and now you're trying to related to my movie. I appreciate that but I thought is really entertaining store. I don't know any of that about this Roy Raymond Character, who created Victoria's secret You think, he's kind of a parallel to know say spaces because Roy site, to create a safe space for men to go in Peru. Women's underwear without any sort of stigma and is where you go and ask questions and not be looked down upon, and you know with our movie no say spaces. The major point that we want to make is America is the true say, space for ideas, a place where people in peruse ideas and ask questions and look around talk about these ideas. Much the same way that maybe where I want to look at women's undergarments, so

exploring ideas legs explore women's undergarments. I guess in that sense, but increasingly that's come under attack. The idea that we can peruse ideas. We can talk about things. We can ask questions. That's what's come under. tat in the last couple years, and we really seen ramp up. Obviously, in the last couple years since you and I might talked about no safe bases and trying to get you involved, it's really kind of alarming. How relevant our movie, no say spaces- has become a new and we are making it that we're tapping into some real truths, but I just had no idea how quickly these things unfold, and these troops would be right in front of our face every single day with the cancer culture and with just this notion that if you say something that offends me, you need to go and so I'm proud of the film extremely proud of the film I wish you wasn't quite as relevant as it is today, because it speaks to great problem that we have in our society like a mission earlier about my desire to tell stories about the american idea? Freedom of speech is

at the centre of that american idea. I don't think young people quite git it unfortunately Emmy we sought on call campuses. Now it's gone everywhere. It's gone into big tech, these people that were at these Colleges have now gone on to jobs at Google and Facebook and corporate Amerika and finance we saw chases basically removing customers based on their political ideas and scary and I'll? Think young people quite grasp what this thing is? It'll understand it as a slippery slope, stand that free speech, what the founders intended can be messy at times. It means that people can be offended at times, but they ve been told that they right, not to be offended, and so they want to jettison. the thing in our society, which makes us, unlike the other place in the world, where we, now ideas. We can talk about those ideas, we can debate and it's really it's how we solve problems. It's why we ve been such a prosperous society for so long is

because we can bash ideas against each other and see what shakes out. I don't know where I heard this chuck. Maybe you heard it I think it was Microsoft are doing, adds now and there just extraordinary people or introducing themselves eyes Right, it's like I'm twenty, eight years old, I'm wearing a green shirt I am of latino descents, my pronouns. Are he and him right, and this is what my business card says. It's this whole campaign, essentially for blind people, so they can understand exactly who you are, but the entire transaction is based on understanding who you are by the way you look at the entire. Thing is: let's remember how important the cover of a book is. So, let's just like that,

I couldn't believe it and there's so much personal cognitive dissonance for me, because I bought Microsoft about three years ago and there have been a great run, an unwritten forum, but I didn't What to make of this, and it just made me wonder if you're blind, I mean if we want color blind society? It seems like the whole safe space, thing is somehow not only wrapped up in it but aligned against it wont. Let me just jump in for a second and say that there are a lot of people now who are not rooting for a colorblind society, and I think that Microsoft thing exemplifies said that, yes, it should be that race should be the first thing you look at to me. I love what Prager says. I care about your color as much secure by your eye color or your hair color, it's like who are you the goal used to be? We want a color blind society, that's what Martin Luther King Jr preached about.

But now there are young people who think that is a bad idea, and I just I dont get it, but I get an ok boomer from the young or old. Why do you not supposed to get it and isn't it just such a big waste of time? ITALY politics in this sort of the wokeism. I mean that intro was like a minute and a half long and Ali accomplish in that time was say with their hair, color hairstyle, look it, had nothing to do with whatever they should have been talking about, and I think we're seeing that everywhere were spending so much time. Now that there are issues to discuss, but this sort of work is on sort of like you signalling is just such a waste of time I mean it is constantly people have to like. No I'm in the right. Try that the list there into six. Ninety wise, where there are good person- and it's is such a waste tat. This get right down to the talk about ideas. It becomes comical in that instance that Microsoft, video was absolutely hilarious but it was handed the obvious Dave chapels, the black clansmen, the blind black

That will be the greatest skip of all time. and what does he know many great truth and Dave Chapels Workers autumn now is like Professor can a lot of ways I like to look at it in terms of what you can control and what you can't control. I can't control my blood type. My star sign my eye color. It can't control my ethnicity, obviously my color, but it seems like What we're doing is focusing only on those things out of our control as opposed to what we choose to believe. If we choose to worship where we choose to live, what we choose to do, which gets us back to the whole point of of trading up, what is the definition of a good job? What is the death

Mission of job satisfaction. All that stuff can be sorted out in a safe space. It has to be figured out in a place where their consequences and sharp elbows and so forth, and so on. I think. Right like didn't, we learn this lesson. You mention data Martin Luther King, Jr, chalk, I'm ever growing up learning about him and does immutable characteristics. We learned were meaningless and it's all about the content of character. but somehow now we're going back to that as the number one thing, and now we're essentially fighting racism with racism, and I didn't we learned our lesson- about opening focus on things that Europe especially born with, is not the way to go. Oh and now we're right back there and the people that have maybe the intentions of. Doing good things are. Race are actually doing a credible damage by continually reminding us how we look different, how we know we ve come from different places,

it's the opposite of America, which is e, Pluribus Unum, and we got here. Back to it. I just don't know what we can do at this point. I hope the ship hasn't sailed. I hope that we can- remind people that those things don't matter? Let's talk about what does matter like what we do to improve this country? What does work look like, I think, sometimes things have to go splat before people really start to pay attention, I'm just not sure what splat looks like right now, I'm looking up this window on down downtown Baltimore for a couple days visiting my folks and I can see the Martin Luther King Boulevard, it's just around the corner from where I'm sitting and How many towns have a boulevard named after this great man? and what direction we headed and are we going to take his sign down or we're gonna take his statue down, because this guy of says

his dream, is a time when the content of character, trumps, the color of skin and the people with whom you would think he would be most Line today are not just disagreeing they're saying the exact opposite is opposite fill the thing it matters most. Is the color of your skin never mind the content of your character. That's personal you're, sort that out on your own, so I wonder thirty, forty twenty years for now, maybe his statues or down, maybe the names of the streets are changed. Who knows I'm hoping I just in recycling, yeah, second to surf x this right now? But that does seem the way it's going, because its increasingly on funny unforgiving society that work ring for ourselves here, where we're gonna dig into everybody's. Pass for the past twenty years and hold that up and base

clay, punish people perpetually for anything they said or did, or if there are in a picture that just didn't look right. I don't know us. Looks like either MIKE, but it sure can it looks like splat right now messy right now and it's like we're just focus completely on the wrong things. I will have the nominee myself as the one to fix it. What we can do is just continue to tell the truth so that when the crisis, so bad that those truthful? sitting there remaining that people can look out. ok. Now that is the way. Let's get back to that, let's go that direction. We all these truths to be self evident, except we don't anymore they're, not self evident. They need to be reintroduced. They need to be pulled apart. They need to be examined. Somebody needs to make a case for them. Because Jefferson had to cut to the chase, so we hold these truths to be self evident, but if we don't hold those truths to be self evident that we set the table in a way that we can't possibly

hope to achieve any kind of meaningful detente, because nothing, self evident. We have to step back We examined everything. What does splat look like ask Re Raymond? That's what splat looks like when you go off the bridge and realise that you're going to enter the only safe space there ever was, which is oblivion. However, you think of it again. I wrote that at a time when I was trying to be terribly clever, where I wanted to say the things I'm saying to you right now, but couldn't say it in a direct fashion for a lot of reasons, I just felt and still feel like. Nobody wants a lecture, so I'm hesitant to have these kinds of conversations because we're not going to convert anybody.

Think talking among ourselves, but the movies that you make the things you put out there and the stories that we tell who knows where they land feeling stressed. We are not alone. more people are more stressed for more reasons than ever before, and studies show that people who experience high levels of stress struggle to concentrate and focus on every day tasks sound familiar If so, you should know about com, dotcom call. Is now the number one mental wellness app over a hundred ml?

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get a limited time offer of forty percent off a calm premium subscription you get access to hundreds of hours of programming and new content is added. Every week. That's com, dotcom, slash, might for forty percent of unlimited access to Coms entire library, see a l m dotcom, Slash MIKE that's com, dotcom slash, my maybe they'll get people. Start thinking differently about what self evident and what isn't yeah? No, I mean you say we may not convert anybody, but I think we will, if you just sit there, if you just tell the truth- and you know that's what I hope that my movies do is tell the truth. But if you just tell the truth and a lot of people don't want to tell the truth theirs

aired right now. It's scary, scary time. Social media has made things scary, where you can make one post and lose your job immediately, and so people don't wanna, be that guy. They don't want to be that person. That's held up as an example and especially if they have kids and family and a good job. So it's hard for people to see. God there are some people that are bold and brave, but if we all can continue to speak the truth collectively that truth, I think, can win out, but it takes a lot occur, I'm kind of in a safe space. Now is a filmmaker where the type of films that. I make in this. Cheapest sailed with me and like mainstream Hollywood along with that My right there calling me to do. You know glee, part four and I recognise that. But that's not a bad thing for me, because I've made a pretty good go of it here, making these types of films and establishing myself in this way, but for a lot of people.

That's not easy to do their work in different job, in hollywood- or they know that if they simply say the wrong thing on sat the full stop ringing, so what about simply being on the wrong sat? You ve got room to manoeuvre now because Dennis Prager has left a big footprint in the world and what he's done over their Prager. You he's done two things. He has made a persuasive case for the ideas that he wishes to espouse, but he's also pissed off a lot of people and what that means for a guy. Like me, I dont get judged on what I say really not much anyway, because I'd try to be thoughtful about

then I put it out as reasonably as I can. I get judged for the company. I keep right. I get judged for making a video for Dennis Prager. I got judged hard for making a chauffeur CNN for two years and then I got all kinds of blow back today. I spent the last three days with Fox and went to the Patriot awards right, I'm curious about your thoughts not on what happens when you say or do the wrong thing, but when you're simply spy next to the wrong guy. That's what scares me now: it's not just the war of ideas. It's the war of Geography, yeah and the guilt by association thing is just another level of a ad hominem attack, you're, not debating the person, any sort of ideas or what they said or or what they stand for you're. Just finding you know you might as well, one of them or say that, unlike this person, because I have an ugly face, the fact that you hung out

Ben Shapiro one time that makes you just unapproachable. So it's just another level of attacks that come when people want to smear you it's enough one thing I wish that didn't work, but for some that kind of does people say well represent, voted for tromp or that person hung out with a start a person with so and so at a cocktail party, one time and its tribal ism, that's taking place I think social media do the two, but people are being cordoned off into their various tribes and, if you're in the other tribe, or if you're hanging out with that person you're, obviously in that other tribe, and so therefore I can associate with you oh, how it ends the most powerful people I feel in society today are the people to break. tribalism mould. Glenn Greenwater as an example in their people that ok, Maybe there liberal, like lingering or Garlic Brett Weinstein's, where they lay ok, Yeah, I'm a liberal, but I'm not going to be.

constrain into a box to think a certain way, and so therefore, next singing you're hanging out with conservatives, and we were like confused about that. and what it tells me as those people like Green Walden. Einstein or just interested in ideas there not interested in that association thing, that's where some of the best I'm relations take place, our people that are kind of coming from different places and discussing something head on conversations, much more interesting if two people are coming from different places and they wouldn't you agree if you are just me from the same household in arguing about something Nobody wants to watch that or listen to that. Nobody wants to watch me. Are you with my wife? Maybe someday does measurement does how about I like to see the Siberian I'll tell ya yeah two conclusions: the most in conversations, we have from people from different schools of thought. Coming together and again can a ram and their heads together. So those who most power

people I feel like right now, the people, the greatest influence of people that cross over those try ballistic boundaries, now some real conversations, audacious palace, one of em right, is a powerful because the more pressing that's exactly what I was going to say is a powerful because he's talking to the other side. Or is he powerful because he's Talking to his side, in a way that his side might not want to hear that's what blowers doing right now, that's amazing! Ever single model augur that both of these things because right now we have such a silo off society, where Gilmore on a show of he's just talking to his audience. He's not recent conservatives necessarily, you know maybe a few curious once, but by speaking difficulties speaking, both his own side, like you, you'd acerbities, also talking to service, was like he's getting that salaries breaking down those walls. I think it has to do with criticising one's own tribe to a degree

The reason that you know bill MAR you go. Who is that he is talking to his audience, who is traditionally liberal and he's expressing ideas that are counter to what they believe. Tucker Karlsson, does that with Republicans I've heard duck or car say careful, Chuck care. I know you want to do that. Association thing. You may be right, but I think that when you criticise your own camp, it gives you credibility. There are others who you will never hear criticise their own camp and I find them not as interesting to listen to as people who are willing to take on their own tribe, as it were for Jews to say that you did something wrong for like to say that Catholic is doing something wrong whatever. I think that's what Bill Mars doing. I think that's what Glenn Green Wall is doing, but the problem is that now, Glenn Greenwash

is being associated with conservatives and people on the left are writing him off is so he's just a closet, conservative and I just don't think, that's true right. Well, he sharing his opinions with an out of the closet conservative. CNN would have Glenn on we'd, be having a totally different conversation, but they're not. I couldn't agree more just The people who can move the needle now are the people who can still make some kind of argument from a middle or perceived middle. Started waiting into this thing more and more a couple years ago and what he told you this one in Nashville, but there was a very strange week for me when I went on real time. With bill more and a couple days later, when on the blaze, with Glenn back the same exact conversation with both men about the foundation, about the very concept in the very things that you did with Chloe and that great die

It was amazing. The blow back, I got from the left and the right was identical and no one, and then there are thousands and thousands of exchanges on foot spoke, and nobody said. I disagree with what you said. They all said. How could you? How could you sit next to that guy? What were you thinking We're ahead. You that's a long way of saying that's why I probably should have just drop the pretence for a moment and been on no safe spaces, because when I saw it, I got it had a better understanding of what the stakes truly are. Adam Corolla did a great job in that that must have been interesting to to see the shift in his career. He burned some bridges did cross the Rubicon get out of, has always been fearless and he's created a platform, but obviously for him to be fearless. He calls it the pirate ship, which was his podcast, which Jean upset the Guinness Book of world record for listeners, because people love that

Fearlessness and Adam has an amazing Billy to kind of strategy divide where he can keep some of US friends on the left and he s friends on the right and people know Adam is a guy who just calls it as he sees it and has been consistent in that, and I think that's what kind of keeps him in that position. He doesn't play this partisan game he's not a tribal list, so to speak. He looks at every. Issue uniquely and ways in on it, and I think people really. spectrum for that. They know that are not always gonna agree with Adam Corolla. He has some friends on the left. That know that he's going to say things he's going to hang out with a guy like Dennis Prager he's going to do. occasionally that are gonna, be off putting to their world view bid, but they also know him to be a true speaker speaking through the way he sees it and they respect that. I wish more people had that position out. I'm sort of built that for himself to be to do that, and that's not an easy thing to do

it is interesting to see how he operates and how he can Conor straddle that divide of being cut a best friends with Jimmy Kimmel, but going around and paying and on what then is prey, or so he's kind of a model for society and a lot of ways. Can this be done personal. Oh for you at work, you know: can you hang out with Sally over there and accounting and I go hang out with another guy. You know in the shipping department who has very different views, can you conversations with both those people and when He sees you hanging out with the guy in shipping, she doesn't get offended, Adams been them using at being able to do that? We used to be able to do that. You remember the show Donna here dear and the seventies he would have these long talks with people on opposite ends of the political spectrum, respectful conversations and in depth by think of Milton Free, and all the time on their single best thing. Anybody can do the same to this right now. If you're gonna go down. Oh you tube rabbit whole, listen to Milton Friedman, Andante you. There were some of them

interviews ever and I give the guy alot of credit for for putting him out there that must watch stuff. I totally agree while we're at saying what you take a dive, one with mentioning Justin's movie no safe spaces, and it really is a terrific movie. It's not just a thoughtful movie, it's an entertaining movie, and I think that is the thing that is really important to day. You know, I know Bright Bart said culture is downstream of politics, or is it the other way around eighty river other rare? But the idea of no one's gonna watch your movie. If it's a lecture like you said it's gotta be entertaining, and that film is definitely curtaining what they shouted. That's why we have out and crawl in the film the guy's entertaining a guy's funny and breakers gonna It is all right to it. When we made the movie is what kind of struck me was when we got there too, together, there is like almost a role reversal where Prager would kind of become the funny white.

Men, Adam Cruel, would be like the really super insightful one and they were just gonna trade positions. You know, if you want to speak to people, it is important that you make him laugh little bed that you pull their heartstrings little bit. If you just basically throw a white paper in their faces, They read this. It's not convince anybody, but we are a lot of fun making. It was a lot of fun. Making that movie, it took us well over three years, actually make that film. Both those guys have very busy schedules this thing was kind of unfolding inform our very eyes, and so we are going to like what are we follow here? There was just things popping all over the place. You know kids riding on campuses and then everything going our big tack and is driven out of a fire hose their farmers did anything happen that affirmatively shifted the trajectory of the film. You thought you were gonna make where their issues at college Airbus is, for instance, that would seem like was on fire just the full. On locking down of speech

the very beginning, I think there was, when abroad ideas So we knew that we want to talk to young people about various ideas and that's when they Berkeley Riot happened, the one with Believe Milo they're burning the camp and at the home of free speech like Berkeley, supposedly the homo free speech where they're burning things over a speaker, and so I think that was a thing that really point us in the direction of while what's happening here. and then not long after that it was only partly couple months later. We were try to do it a bit with Adam Carolla and Dennis Prager together on stage at Cal State Northridge, and they essentially got canceled the college administrator said: no, you can't do the event. They didn't give us a good reason. Why? They made up a bunch of lame excuses, and so ok now we're in this story now we're part of this story, because it just happened to us right so those I think that the two things back to back that propelled us into this story.

and how did it impact your stated Mind in your view of the film, when used, suddenly realised that you're a character in Dhaka? What does that do It gives you a little sense of importance. You, like you're, doing something that matters. I think when we went to these college camp since then? We would see what was happening: Israel Eye opener. There was a bit scary, but think I had the same thoughts about college campuses that a lot of people do like all those crazy kids and there's gonna, be dumb and stupid and do crazy things, but it doesnt affect me, but I think once we gotta these campuses and saw what was going on and saw the mentality behind it in realising that it was going to spread That's when I was a wake up call, I think for me, knowing that this was not gonna stand campuses, this was going to go everywhere. That's a really jolted me, I guess not fun games anymore,

we can't just sit. There pointed laugh and be like those silly kids with their safe spaces and trigger warnings and everything else. Crying closet right right area. This dangerous make following a growing closets, MIKE

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the article said the sweat pledge was bloggers, and I wanted him to hear somebody who signed it, who had prospered as a result, but also in the course of all that this guy Jake was his name. He talked about the fact that he used to love dirty jobs used to watch it his dad until I got older and realized many years later, that the idea is at the heart of the show were what he described today as sneaky conservatism. We were entertaining you first, foremost, but underneath that there was a morality play and it had to do with hard work and delay gratification and a decent attitude, and sense of personal responsibility and rugged individualism. Isn't it crazy how those attributes have become associated with concern? but if principles in the same way that liberal ideas today

to fall in line behind kindness and empathy and basic decency and insight Why would either side abdicate any claim onto those virtues, but we have, have it's just so bananas, so the non sneaking us of your movie that I admire today, you still entertained first and foremost, but you lead with your right no safe spaces. Let's not be confused about. What we are trying to do here still want entertain, but you kind of hit that nail pretty hard on the head. I thought We basically created a character for the first, a minute named, firstly, and we basically murdered him on screen, so I was pretty direct

yes, how rocks cartoon murder the first amendment, but whose idea was that I think it was my co producer came over. That idea is a good idea is how do we execute that we found a great animator intended gray composer, who basically rewrote the song? I wrote a regional song for it, so Michael producer Owen came up with that idea, and then we went out and made it, and it was this crazy enough to do and sticking to filmed of really kind of make people like we did a lot of tests, greetings for no say spaces and I seen always through people, they have loved it or they hated it, and that's why I knew it needed to stay. There was a lot of fun to make one the points I was going to make it one of the greatest benefits about being a filmmaker is being able to learn about things while you're making a movie on a topic and has been one of the finest I've learned way more as a filmmaker than I ever did in school, and that's why the trading up with such an awesome thing making the short, documented trading up on the train was great because

to learn about that budget. To learn a lot more about the trades member when Prager you asked me make a short documentary about the trades and trade school you're. The first person I was my plumber, but he was like too busy to talk to me. So that told me something right of the same person like all this shock you now I gotta talk to chuck about this chocolate. because I think he knew that I didn't know enough about the trades yet to really tell a story so he's like kind of quiz me on the phone is like what do you know about the skills gap? like. Can you tell me about the skills gap and come like other skills gap? Meanwhile, my Google's kills yeah shock, no skills gap, it's a very real thing and we got to do something about that. and so the process of making trading, but with a lot of fun, because I did and again just like no say spaces. It was alarming What I learned and a couple of things not to me is that, due to the fact that we have so many, these jobs are unfilled and we don't have the people to fill them, and that is the skills gap

But what is even more alarming is the fact that- and I think people notice but you're on reply love to hear that half of the trades workforce is going to retire in the next decade. Ass witches s, it's like boom, like who's gonna, fix anything around here. Who's gonna do anything, and now we have Biden in Congress talking about infrastructure and passing these bills, but ok whose do that work remains actually much a robot somewhere that can Weldon draw blueprint. And do everything else somewhere in some factory somewhere that are going to actually do these jobs So it's a scary thing that we have a country that won't be able to fix anything. That's one of the major threat things ehler when we're making trading up. I think it's a truly terrifying thing. I think it's a matter of national security, the whole business of the balanced workforce, but I also want to talk about not just the political

by, but the rhetorical divide and the assault on the language you mentioned infrastructure. There was a time when everybody could talk about infrastructure spending, because we all know It was recently we ve learned that it's not just bridges and roads and power grids. It's not just sewer lines and runways, its also free college and it's free healthcare and its slave reparations and look. I had no beef discussing any of those things among people of good faith, but to redefine them is infrastructure. That's something new that something too when you googled skills gap. You probably found a number of articles that would talk at length about how it wasn't a thing how it was a myth, how it don't really exist now, ten point: four million open positions does make that a difficult argument to make, but people are still making it and they're making it.

Passionately hell just in Miriam Webster, just redefined anti vaccines to include those people who were opposed to mandates, so the language is being completely shifted right in front of us in real time. The attacks that you mentioned before, whether its add hominem or logical, fallacies or any of the other rhetorical devices that are used up and a conversation, those are happening. The supply chain is happening. It's frozen, I'm trying to get a line of whisky launched. I can't do it as a keg bam bottles there still stuck in the port right Boo hoo my characters: whisky out, I'm just saying that our brain, really, it is hard because it's really good whisky, I kind of like the country can use a drink right now and I can provide one, but what we really need bottles I might go, have one now to go lament Europe lack of bourbon. I would appreciate it

If you got it thirteen years ago, when we started this odyssey, it was based on exactly what you said. We don't have enough people replacing the workforce its retiring today, we're still having the same conversation still to make a more persuasive case for the trades, but we're doing it when the words trades don't mean they used to me so This is why I wanted you to come on frankly, because you're in this fight, in a meaningful way, because you're making content that can be shared and that can hopefully help move the needle and the fact that you used to be escape border will not escape borders. Snow order who took risks and made some films in his spare time and now you're a filmmaker who takes risks. Who, probably I don't know, do you still skate you're figuring out in front of your audience. Its awesome- I am now a careful snow border and fearless nor make yourself just shifted those two things around

right about the language? This stuff is one in lost with the language their propaganda come up. a new way to explain. Supply chain is going to mean something else right, there's gonna be a. We don't have enough gender studies professors going into let's get me to supply chain issue that we're getting really with next year's european trading up is an important. Even those short documentary Wanna Prager whose main goals of that film was to cut up, put that out there for young. people that are considering this stuff- speaks in truth to them and people that are considering coming. College thinking about college thinking about universities and is gonna dangling, They, like you, know what hey. There are some other options that maybe you haven't considered and I think the greatest of parts of trading up besides Chloe in her story,

is when you lay out for us the pr campaign that has taken place over the last thirty forty years and the stigma attached to similar that doesn't go to college and decide to do something else. Alert skill might think this one, the most important parts of the film in terms of message, because This is what young people need to hear today, I'm a bit in the abstract. Doesn't it kind of truth that we need to continue to speak to people and you guys been doing it with micro works for a long time now, a credit you guys, but you guys we're sort of the inspiration for making this film and waterways wouldn't keep speaking the truth. I think again when that splat happens at least the truth will be sitting there for people to come and pick it up Another truth to is, if you think, a plumber costs a lot of money now, just wait till half of whom retire. The trap is that most people, wind up thinking,

this in terms of the employee and the employer and the relationship, the eternal struggle between labour and management, right, humanity in capital. But it's not I mean it is, but it's bigger than that. That's why training up as a movie that people need to see my opinion because it does engage the three hundred and thirty million people in this country who are all impacted by the skills gap? What do you think it's a myth or not chucks point, valid? How long do you want to wait for a plumber and how much can you afford to pay, and these questions answered honestly, sometimes oftentimes? In fact, our counter to the active of a union and that's why I'm often difficult spot if you are representing plumbers collectively. Well the fewer there are the more they can charge and congrats.

patients. Your role is done. You ve done your job, but there's a bigger job to do because everybody in the country now has indoor plumbing and we'd like to keep it right and so to get the country engaged in the conversation the trick Justin in your own yeoman work. Thank you. I mean a lot going, MIKE and the thing is people may think about the trades and you to keep in mind. It's not just broken pipes and Claude toilets. The trades encompass. So many things, air traffic controllers are trade worker. They have their own trade school from F ay ay, where they go, learn how to land plain safely. So ok, yeah, you might have a cloud toilet, but do we have enough people that can land plain safely, I know, there's shortage right now in air traffic controllers; maintenance guys on these areas, means. Do we like it when our airplane and safely on the runway. Well, if we do, we should consider what's happening here with the train workers. Do we have enough people to meet

demand. So we know whether its air travel control weathers here: in cooling, whether its even cooking a few going to a nice restaurant, the culinary arts? That's a trade, so much Society is built around the tradespeople that have skills. Can do amazing things. What's first is that so disregarded and has been for so long and that emphasis needs to change.

Particularly ironic and personal for me. The reason that I didn't at the beginning of our conversation, to cut out the incredible frustration we experienced for the half hour we spent trying to get this damn connection to work on this eternally vexing broadcast is because metaphorically it's exactly what you're talking about. I'm not saying podcasting is a trade necessarily in and of itself, but it is pursued that requires skill and that skill comes with preparation and planning, and sorts of things, the chalk, and I simply can't do because we're spread too thin. Now I'm making excuses, but that's part of it TAT was my forty chess move guy come clean. Now I had a little. I was pushing that was hearing each other and I knew that you would make that connection and how that really brilliant inside so they worked. They worked well

job is to make sure the connections are clear. My job is to land the plain, and you did set me up nicely with the air traffic control metaphor. I thought I was gonna, bring everything around two on normal man, searching for some lingerie for his wife on her anniversary in the ultimate chain of events that led him to go. Splat offer the golden gate is still not a bad. Way to end it, but the truth is we are all incredibly connected and reliant on somebody to figure out the MIKE, the toilet, the electricity, the air traffic controllers as we cannot separate our workforce anymore into blue and white collar halves, because when you do that there's your gap. The gap is the space between those two colors. It ain't the colored collars it's all of his figuring out our role in this and showing up early and getting it done right, amen, brother Look. I gotta know magic

I got an aim and I am not an from you. I got an email from judgment, but I was not in my head that just doesn't translating the audio Brianna the pot cast in a category of shameless plug. Three working people go to see either the films that we ve been taught. About and what, if anything, can they do to help the cause along? As you know, say spaces you just gotta, either no say spaces dot com or it is available on streaming platforms everywhere and then trading. You can go to Prager you dot com and watch that short document. You gotta, look for under short documentaries nigger you dot com, and then you can follow me it just in folk at just enforcement What are my very active on twitter? But you know if you wanted to follow me and then reach out to me somehow that's pry the best way of doing that we work on now. What's next, I have a future linked documentary and working on that. I have to keep the details to myself. For the moment when we talk about fearless

making its requiring a lot of that. It's touching on a very controversial topic, that's very relevant today and again trying to speak some hard truths. I guess in and get the conversation go on about some important issues going on so hope now that done and have that released in twenty two. Two coming up next year? Maybe we can let you get hung back you're not going to talk about it yeah. absolutely I'm curious chuck. This isn't the project that you and I were discussing with our actor friend is it? Is it the same project you mean recall untidy. No, no! No, not at all now know that that guy now no other ideas, not it's not that none another. No, no sorry! Folks. I apologise initials Anne S, desire to my eyes. I cannot confirm or deny and agendas now. Ok, that's why I'm talking about I'm aware our project, I'm involved with it, but that's another controversial topic, I'm doing indifferent, controversial topic,

This is a better way to end this conversation, the idea that film making has gone. from it's a wonderful life and the searchers, and all of that great stuff into this desperate, a cynical attempt to pander to an audience That is not us right to now. Making movies with people who can't even talk about them. Yet we just talk about it yet because it's too hot it's too sensitive, that's where we are as we approach twenty two talking with filmmakers, can't even promote their next project. Just yet hell of a thing just as it is, it says a lot about where we're out, but to economise. We have a quote by famous director Warner Herzog, who said The two greatest skills a filmmaker can have is picking a lock and of forging a document So it is

the art of filmmaking. You really have to go rogue to target story, unfortunately, but it ends up being a lot of fun to its centime. So congratulations on being fearless at doing a thing that you actually love, you're good at it. I'm flattered that she thought of me for the first one in grateful that I share my way into the second one: and we can tell me the title of the third one. If you need a narrator, let me no regrets civil rights, social, I started my money now. My you better just informed. Thank you for your time in Nepal, jeez again for the goat, Rodya that the procedure was a fine thanks, guys proceeded.