We're laughing those judges said. What do you want to talk about? The preamble and I said well what? If we talk- about the amazing interview we just conducted. That's probably a good idea: I'm going to go with it it's the way. I heard it episode number two hundred and eighty one and not to overstate it. But yes, this was a very good interview and I said not because Jocker. I asked amazing questions, although I think we did ok, you did better than I did. Well. You know that's kind of way It's the way I heard it with who, like my yet microsoft got it. guest is another mike mike render been making the rounds because he's written an extraordinary memoir called a billion years. A billion years refers to the term. that does see org members in the church of scientology pledge to serve a billion years

The name of this episode is I'd like to buy a vow v, o w because I think it rhymes nicely with the title of the book and you'll, hear how it pops up in our conversation but check this was a good one. Man really. I could listen to that. Guy talk for three hours: it's been a long time coming and regular listeners. Now I've had to be in my bonnet with scientology for a long time. This was gratifying on damn near every level. It really was we ve had spanky taylor on before. Who knows might render very well and she's been telling me for a long time that he's such a wonderful guy and t prove to be just that he's, got that charming australian accent, which makes it really jacked up cause. He says: vow in youth vow were bow I know what was talking about, but we worked out he's on the pod cast, because he spent most of his life, not just in scientology but way way way way way up the food aid. He ended

but miss cabbage were basically connected at the hip for a long time He got in scientology at a very young age. He worked on the apollo, which was the ship that all right answered the flagship yeah. His book is amazing and I'm just gonna tell you right now. If you ve ever been interested in why people believe what they believe and how they get pulled into cults and organizations and bad jobs and bad relationships. Well, it happens a little bit at a time and he knows it better than this guy. He somehow escaped scientology. He has become a jagged little pill and a huge thorn in their side, he's on a mission, big time he's on emission book is a memoir. It's also cautionary tale. It's a pleasure listen to and it's fun and horrifying to read at the same time, but it's so really gratifying to tee.

To somebody who knows that when you're going through Hell, the best thing you can do is keep going keep going he punched through. He came out the other side. He's got an amazing story to tell and he's telling it everywhere. Sixty minutes CBS like us. He's making the rounds- and he was kind enough to make some time for us and say very nice things. It's nice to connect the dots between him and spanky and huge fuck, you know I mean we all have our weird little connection. With this thing I felt like the conversation brought it full circle absolutely, and I think we ought to just get right to it, because it's good, it's nonstop and it's rapid fire. So, let's do it I'd like to buy a vow episode. Number two. Eighty one gets going right after this doo doo doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo doo done many years ago on dirty jobs. I did a story on the process of artificially inseminate turkeys and evolve.

A glass jar with a lid on it and a straw through the hole in the lid, some annual stimulation and a lot of sucking honestly, I'm still not ready to talk about it, but but I ready to talk about the best way to get a delicious turkey onto your platter, this thanksgiving in a word, but your box book box- wants to send you a free turkey with your first order, and I recommend you take him up on it. Why because searching for in finding a delicious, affordable, free range. Turkey in the grocery store without any bioethics are added hormones is a pain in the neck. That's why and it's not just poultry, but your box takes the guess: work out of finding high quality beef and see food that you can trust all of it delivered right, dear doorstep, free shipping in the continental, united states and no surprise fees. Doubt let thanksgiving stress you out any more than it has to get a free turkey that

Don't have to inseminate yourself with your first order at butcher box, dotcom, slash road use, promo code row to get a ten to fourteen pound free turkey in your first box, let's put your box dot com, slash row. Promo code wrote a claim this deal if you your me in a box well, like my knees, today talking he really thrilled. This is the single podcast interview that I have actually been looking forward to that. That is some high carbon might render. Thank you so much for saying that, although I dont know when aside,

the gist of former scientologist. Tells you that he? Why she's, your show, religiously, That is a very good point that is very before yeah. Well, that was religiously after I left, I wasn't watching tv, when I was there in the sea argos after I left so today even allows a tv is on the apollo, oh no notice he's on the apollo, even subsequent to that like when we arrived at the fort harris There were tvs and all the rooms because it was a hotel. but we want allow the watch them amazing. I think officially begun ross. You wanna hang around you're welcome to stay. I mean you look so comfortable their aid to wake you up. Right thanks ass rob higher. Ladies gentlemen, weighing in from a recumbent posture his audio, is not recorded mike so we'll just have to magic, thereby sounds lawyer, so

guess might render. We have officially begun you're here for a. Or of reasons all of which are really really personal to me, but it started spanky and I understand she actually said some of kind words to you about me. Do tell yeah whilst spanky says kind words about everyone MIKE. So I just don't want your head getting too big veronica's. She is one of the kind of people that I have ever had the pleasure to know- and I know she has worked with- and for you all want. However, you want to characterize it for a long time and even before, she sort of said anything about your interest or thoughts about scientology. She said, oh, I just gotta tell you he has just done nicest man here

just the nicest man he's so wonderful. You can imagine spanking voice, saying that, and it's just like she would like walk over hot coals, view. While there is no need for that, but I will tell you this the feelings mutual. I always just thought she was the sweetest, nicest, naturally decent person. The reason I kicked, this hornets nest, when I heard her story is that I just I mean I can't abide a bully in any of the many forms they come in and to see someone like spanky on the receiving end of just the impossible, wait and see. Of the certainty that just crushed her it just me angry and then, when I saw you and when I saw Alex kidneys film, I just thought you know what I dont need trouble in my life, but when the dust settles, we're gonna be weighed and measured and

would be on the wrong side of this one. So that's why you're here I assume almost zero relative risk in shaken the tree, but you have picked an enormous fight with a giant adversary. and I want to start where you want to start. You ve written an amazing book. It's called a billion years you're, making the rounds talking about that, but you're doing much more, in my view, your laying out a path for people to break free of this. This prison- and it really does strike me as that- a prison well Larry, right, white, correctly subtitled going clear, scientology the prison of belief, and that is what scientology as it is, a prison with

bars built out of the woods of l, run hubbard, who has managed to in case people in a way of thinking, king and a belief system that holds them in place and causes them to do things that are not really in their best interests. I guess that's, probably a pretty good definition of what a call is or what you know our high control group is it's. When you can be persuaded to do things. that clearly not in your best interests, whether its handing over money, whether its devoting your life, whether is doing things than that and you're in your basic nature, when you can persuade people to do those sorts of things

you are controlling them mind and they are effectively imprisoned, and you know I was saying to chuck before we started the tragedy of a story like spank ease or my story or anybody story is not just us and what's happened, Us it's the fact that it is continuing to this day, because the Migration cannot change because it is all based on the writings about run hubbard in these long gone. So nobody can change that people need to your stand that I think, are really fundamental way. So much and by the way I was thinking. As you were talking of a great book. I've got it around here somewhere called why people believe weird things. It was written by my Shermer it It is on a lot of what you just said, but this idea that you need to be put.

Wait a bull and at this time you come face to face with a person who is a very strong, persuade her. That seems to be the fertile ground and around hubbard wrote his book. You know decades he was a very strong, persuade her, obviously in the stars, just seem to line up and as we too, I just want to be mindful of the fact that its easy from the outside to pull back the curtain and look at this cult and look at these people who have just made this crazy, crazy, crazy decision to believe these crazy, crazy, crazy things. But it's not like that at all No one ever thinks they're crazy. No one ever thinks there in our called. So as we talk, I I wanted try and understand what it was about. Hubbard that struck so many people are so reasonable and how

like a frog in the boiling water, so many otherwise discerning people suddenly found themselves with a one way ticket to crazy town. Well, that's absolutely thing that I tried from my perspective at least to describe in the book as well as I could. What was I thinking. How did I come to believe this crazy shit, but I want to Something like that often comes up, which is you know, billing colds they're all like incapacitated in some fashion off stupid or not very bright, to have gotten involved in something like that. It is actually the opposite. Like you look at someone like Spain, key and spanky is a wonderful smart, driven

intelligent woman who her defining feature is her kindness and one of the things that traps. People in scientology is the idea that you can help not just yourself, but you can help other people, the whole planet, the whole every body to species exactly and the This is something that you find with the run of the mill scientologist. Yes, you can look them ago. While these people are really pretty out there they're pretty crazy, this stuff, they believe, is really out there, but the core of those people is that their belief is based on the idea that they gonna help other people, then not evil p. People who are intent on enslaving in controlling other people. They think they're helping them the inside

being in controlling comes at the top, and that's kind of the case in a lot colts. I we had a wonderful episode on the aftermath with a survivor of jonestown and she's thou police captain in san francisco when just incredible woman. What an amazing story! She has her whole family got involved with that, because they believe that were helping their community and Jim Jones of course was kind. Rebel. Being in the power that he had over people, but the people that were participating in his people's temple thing. They wouldn't nice people thought they were helping the world and that's the same, would scientology and is the same with Jehovah's witten and whatever other like or

innovations they're out there, and I think that that something that people need to really think about before they pass judgement on. Oh yeah that guy's a cold member its critical I'll. Take it a step further. I remember chuck and I used to work for a united artists. We saw a lot of movies when we were kids. I remember seeing writers of the lost dark for the first time and when nazis were on the screen. I remember thinking to myself. You know need any exposition at all. All you need to do is show me the arm ban show me the asshole and that's it right so like as, if all the The members of the nazi party looked in the mirror and saw the evil that I saw in indiana jones and by the way, every other clip that ever run on any news real. You can seem goose, stepping in zig high

and you just looking you shake your head and go wow. You know they just food, their way right out of Hell, they're the the embodiment of evil, but they looked in the mirror to, and they didn't see anything like that, they saw saviours right. That's the first big thing, Try and remember when I talk about all of this stuff, nobody and I'd, scientology or J dubious or the knots party or any other called group or organization season, selves as anything other than enlightened, absolutely correct. But then there is one other difference that I would point out mike, which is there is always a percentage of those people who are sociopaths and those of the people that rise to the top of such

organizations and those are the people who look in the mirror and they see themselves as saviours, but they have absolutely no conscience. They actually don't care about any body, other than themselves, and tell me read this sociopath next door. Oh, I was just about to say you recommended the book I'm gonna get. I recommend every person I've ever talk to and on my blog and it in a book that I just wrote, read the sociopath next door by mafia style. It is brilliant, easy to understand simple explanation of something that many people- on into and are unaware that that's what they're dealing with and that book was a revelation to me mike, because I worked for David miscarriage, who was clear

really a sociopath I'll, run the hubbub who navy was a borderline sociopath per probably was but had some redeeming qualities dam and when I read that book I went. Oh, my god, a I'm, not crazy What I thought was going on really was going on and be I'm not the only person in the world this had this experience, I thought I was like run into the unicorn of the universe. Who was this solemn buzz? creation that you know nobody would understand, and I read a book. They went out If you know what this personality type is you absolutely understand what is like at the top of scientology working for david miscarriage? So, yes, I definitely what a nightmare you are to these people. I mean people come in

go from all sorts of churches and organizations all of the time and many times they don't have flattering things to say, but you you were what third from the top were close to it yeah. I was the international spokesperson for scientology for two decades, I was on the board of directors of the church of scientology international from when I help create it until I escaped in two thousand seven, you know like thirty twenty five years, so, yes, I was in a very senior position. As you will know from my book, I was brought into the world of scientology at a very young age. I joined what was called the sea organization, which is like the inner circle of scientology and you sign a billion year contract to pledge yourself for eternity.

To achieving the aims of scientology. That's when the name of the book comes from shore, but Probably more significantly and more significantly. With respect to the book, I brought to children into that world and Two children remain there to this day and the book is actually addressed to them with the hope that one day they will actually be able to read it and know who I am all was, and you know maybe the reader after I passed on, who knows, but its importance and its importance to me and I lay out in the beginning in the book wide awake, keep going. Well, it's really because of that, because I want them to have the freedom to think for themselves and it's my belief that this point mike the only way that that will happen. The only way to break

I'm out of the prison is the blow up the prison. I think the reason your book is number one is because you are taking a very big swing and you are trying to correct a very great. Wrong, but you're doing it in a very personal way, mrs micro, ro. At the same time, you're taking a big swing at attacks exists organization that uses taxpayers, money and dedicated exclusive. We too, a wing within the organization whose sole purpose is to harass and attack. P. Please understand that. But here you set estranged from your kids and that estrangement goes right to the very heart think of what is so troubling and so purse to so many other people who are estranged from their family for what ever reason you ve, tapped into

an enormous thing: that's also an intensely small and personal thing and here's a question one has ever asked you before I listen to you on patrick bet, david Alison down megan Kelly. I listened to your CBS this morning. I listen to you on sixty minutes, australia, boy. You be busy! Well look man! I don't use probably been interviewed by a lot of people who think they know you yeah and you ve problem answered every conceivable question, but what's on my mine right now is how does it feel to be really under the microscope? Talking so intimately about something so personal that the ramifications to literally changed thousands of people's lives. I mean it

deadly serious. What you're in the midst of right now and I just wonder how that feels on a day to day basis, for you well you're right. Might nobody has ever asked me that question before, like I thought you would joking, I thought you were going to give me Like you know, routine question everybody us all a type now I went for it meant. I was gonna, tell you where that Emmy came from, but I'm saving attempts have ass. He knew no telling how that re right, great yeah exactly how does it feel it feels very We are a heavy burden. In one respect, I feel a great responsibility to make sure that I get things right and that I do justice to all of the people who I know who are victims and have been victimized by this organization and make

them feel like they have a voice that maybe they don't have the opportunity go on making kelly or patrick bet David or wherever that I represent them. Well, I say the things that are important to them and that they know there is a great feeling of I've got want to make sure that I do those people justice, because it may be the only justice that they feel they're going to get is to at least have someone explain things like they would like to explain them or express a perspective like they would like to express on the sort of flip side of the the responsibility comes the satisfaction of knowing that some people are being helped by the work that I do I hear from them routinely there

always so incredibly appreciative and thankful and so kind and nice, you know I'd buy in them at the supermarket or when I get on a plane, wherever, and that is intensely gratifying, and you know I talk in the book about one of the other big attractions of scientology is that it offers you this huge world view of your involved with something. That's really important, really important to mankind and when you leave or escape you lose that and I have replaced that you know. I said to someone on one of these programs like I was saving the world with scientology. Now I'm seeking to save the world from scientology, I think that was

that's CBS morning show and that pretty much summed it up like when ok yeah, I've sort of replaced my dedication and further to achieving the aims of scientology, with a dedication and fervor to exposing the abuses of scientology, so that I can stop What I know is going on to people who you have no way of doing anything about it. Isn't it funny? how something so enormous come down to a proposition with or or fraud from did you die from covered with cove rain I mean it's a good, the biggest the heat he assumed. The world often hinge on just the smallest thing.

And that leads me to want to ask: are there any small things in scientology or are they all big things? I think when I talk to spanky, I wound up calling that episode the crushing certainty of scientology. Do do do do do do do do do do. Do don't have a crystal ball folks, and I've been wrong too often to give you financial vice, but it sure seems like interest rates are rising and if you have a balance on your credit card, it sure seems like a good time to lock in the lowest possible interest rate that you can possibly negotiate before the interest rates jump again. Credit card consolidation loan from light stream can help you pay off your credit card. Save you money and lock in a low, fixed interest rate rate start at six, point nine, nine percent, a pr without obey and excellent credit you'd get alone from I grant you a hundred grand and there are absolutely no fees and get your money

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busy life really counts, and really MIKE the recent dispute, cast is called the way I heard it is because I dont know the minute I become certain about a thing I become suspicious of my certainty and it felt, like you know when I read through the early stuff, and when I looked at Alex's documentary, which everybody should watch by the way, the thing that always rose to the top was. There was just no room for debate. There was no room for scepticism. Anybody in contact with some. He who didn't fallen line was disconnected so just a complete all encompassing

total unwillingness to engage with anyone who, doesn't share your certainty. That's not small thing, but it seems to inform every chapter of your book and every conversation I've ever had about this well you're, exactly right. I'd defining characteristic of scientologists is their certainty. They are absolutely certain. Then it is hampered in design told us that there is one path only one, and it is the

pass that was forged by el run, hubbard through the fires of you, no seventy five million years ago and everything else, and that only by following exactly what he said. Can you achieve spiritual salvation for yourself, but also save the planet, and on top of that is the idea that if you fail to do exactly as he says, you will not get the results that promised by habit. Hubbard promised that with a one hundred percent perfect application of his technology, which is what he called his scripture, his babblings, you will receive absolutely one hundred percent guaranteed reserve

doubts and hobbled had another defining or interesting thing. He talked about everything I mean he was an expert about everything from window, washing to how to cure cancer, to how to run a business to like anything and everything he expressed his particular view of things, and this is something that You know I write about in the book. One of the earliest things in my life was learning this concept of do what wrong says that hammered has the answers for everything MIKE seriously everything like you hurt yourself. You got the cane teeth like whatever is he's got an answer and all you have to do

is study and learn what happened said about it and you will have the answer to, and this is the certainty that scientologists have and display to the world. Is the certainty founded in the idea that EL run hubbard has the answers to all of life, and they are the only answers that actually work and that only son intelligence have those and all the other poor individuals on planet earth who remain uninformed or ignorant of the millions of all run harboured the warm world as its coleman scientology, walk, walk w, oh gee. We all stand for something or is it just a it's, an old expression that the colonial british used to use to describe the you know

calls in india or whatever country they would colonizing. They called them. Worthy oriental gentlemen, the great unwashed didn't hubbard believed that he was reincarnated from seas. Roads, yes, cecil road to rhodesia, I write about that in the book too. Before you went into the certainty you ask if there are small things in science: oh yes, and there are- and this is what part of the genius of hubbard was to take small Workable agreeable things and present them, and he plucked them from all over the place: philosophical writings and other religions, and this in that at present them as this is his stuff, and so you know there are

little practical things that anybody could agree with at the beginning stages of scientology in that's what gets you involved and hot and the sort of mantra is well if this piece of technology from ron works for you look for the rest, what else is there that might work for you? His technology works all the time. It's wonderful! You know and involved, and so there are all these little things and you know even down to practicing how to communicate to someone scientology claims that it has a habit claim. He had develop the technology of communication, while goodwill and scientologists old tell you they ve got the technology of communication

and it's something that's practised a lot and you dream about, and also some things in scientology to quote: teach you how to communicate effective. And there is some value to that, and people learn things and experience some like. Oh, my god, I feel better about being able to talk to my wife or I'd feel better about being able to talk to my kids because they sort of practice- and you know them, then, whether it is oh good or not. There is also an enormous confirmation, bias that exists in scientology where everybody is telling everybody else, how wonderful everything and if you're, not on the one, the scale of how amazing everything is, there's something wrong with you and there are. All these explanations in scientology and then not pretty. If you're, not

experiencing these remarkable gains, and wins, and advances zone: ecology, you're doing wrong. Not only you doing it wrong. You may well be a suppressing person, which is Anna me or you, may be what's even worse than a suppresses person, a degraded being who would db a db? That's how they get You could fall into that category and nobody wants to fall into that category. So I know I give very long winded answers mike I'm sorry, it's just like I love you said what I was kind of hoping you would say now that I've got any this mapped out, but there are small, things. I don't know that. I would agree that you know communicating with your spouse or your kids is a small thing, but before you get to that if he shows you a better way to tie your shoes if he showed You a better way to get a cork out of a bottle if he shows you a better way to your point.

to wash your window, and these simple, simple technique start to line up trust, develop. Right, yes and then suddenly, when you start talking about look, let's talk about how you communicate with your kids. Will you ve got my attention because you just did me right on these four five other things that came before it? What comes after that? God only knows, but that's the importance of a small it's the wrong on. The latter did get you to the big thing, and then you start. spending money, then you see getting your reactive mine straightened out than you start getting rid of these. What are they call him phaetons wherever they are in body satan? Yes, the money start to change hands, and now you got yourself a business and so forth, and so on so right, and that is not a small thing The reason I ask you about that is because the title of your book is a billion years and a billion is not a small number. It's a big, nothing very big number

so you don't come out of the gate, mass somebody to sign a billion, your contract and just quick sidebar. If you'll indulge me in my goofy world, I sign a lot of contracts and twenty five years ago, I was signing contracts over discovery. Then headline which, in the end, that appeared to have been written by a human being and daddy these contracts- I basically giving them the right to use the work product in some way. Will that ways now defined as you agree that the work product will be assimilated all over the world and in any other world. throughout the universe, known and unknown on planets, covered and yet to be discovered and its longer than a billion years MIKE. It's in purpose deal with it in perpetuity indians galaxy so like the land

which always matters to me. I gotta give him credit. They just want right, four billion, it's a good number, and everybody who works and see org signs it. Yes, absolutely my children sign that contract when they were ten- and I was proud of it at the time. But now you ve breached your deal. You breached your deal. Migrants gonna do with you. You had nine hundred and ninety nine million plus years left I had a lot to go. I wasn't eligible for a pension for a long long time. Ok, sorry for the schizophrenia cops catching, but you worked directly with around hubbard you were, the boat you were swatting lacks. You were in his presence. Yes, that must have made you very unique among other congregants. Well yeah.

Ass time went on. There were less and less people, and you know to what even before he died, he was around close, and you only had like three people with him so in a motor home right. in a motor harm me up. I I was actually only to pay but with them, one of them was not even there, but the number of people who someone asked me this the other day. How many people are left You know still alive, who may have worked directly with l run hubbard in this organization. I don't know, maybe a hundred like it's not that many, and so because of that I worked with him on the apollo a little and then I work with him more when he moved to le kinda california and after we came off the ship people ass, we saw what was how but like, and he was

certainly a larger than life character. He was a big personality. There was no doubt when he walked into a room. You didn't have to be looking at the door to know that some big thing had come into the room and he was a a storyteller that was his forte his strength and defining characteristic was his ability to tell stories. He told so many stories that in the end he but if his own bullshit stories- and he was proud of the fact that he was a storyteller and heat stories for a living before he's

added dynamics and scientology? He told stories about himself to make a living like he presented himself as all sorts of things that he really wasn't in order to kind of increases status and get more books sold. and get deals with publishes blah blah blah, and then he started doing that same routine. With dianetics and scientology, and he bullshit it is way through his like he's, got three thousand lectures might that are recorded and treated as sort of gospel in I told you, these are the words of l run habit. He wrote a bunch of books, but he also delivered all these lectures. These like is a rambling storytelling and the stories that he tells in these elections.

one day, he'll say he was here doing that and then the next day he'll say he was somewhere else doing something else, and you know their internally inconsistent. There are also very inconsistent with reality and that's actually what prompted larry right to write his book showing clear was when he was in a viewing paul haggis all the new yorker radical, but he did prior to that book tommy day this who was then the spokesperson there was dealing with him from scientology. He replaced you write, tommy thea, yes, exactly started telling him all these out. Rageous stories about l, run habits, accomplishments and exploits, and larry kind of when you know this doesn't match up with any reality that I know, and Tommy Davis got indignant and said. Well, if this isn't she

then the whole basis of dynamics and scientology is false and larry went well. That's worth looking into, and vat truthfully is the basis of him, then going and continuing his research and digging and digging and digging, and if You know Larry right. There was one thing Larry right, he is the most relentless pursuit. Snickey in red and blue e pedantic, perfect yep pedantic makes it sound bad. My connotation pedantic is always that that something about erect over the top wrong yeah he's just the most thorough person in the world when it comes to digging into what happened here. Where's the documents- let me peace, this story together,

and, if you read his book, his book is a masterpiece of gathering together and finding what the real story was and what the real truth was and that exposed harboured as a abortion. we mentioned earlier- martha stealth spoke. There was another book that had an enormous impact on me, which I mean in my book, which Russell miller's, unauthorized biography of I'll run. Hubbard bear face. Messiah because Russell Miller was very similar to Larry right, a researcher, a guy who's. He went and found hobbled school. Friends from when he went to primary school and his aunts and uncles and people the habit had claimed? You know I was a brother, the blackfeet tribe, and he went wrecked the people down and found

You know there there was no record and I and the people in the navy- and he did all of this research and his book is a wonderful book. I highly recommend a tyranny body that has an interest in scientology hubbub, because when I read it I went you know he's actually captured the man while exposing the bull shit. He has also made clear that he has some real deal of respect for the fact that this guy was the consummate storyteller, yes, and he managed to parlay that into making millions by darting. First of all, a self help mental health organization group thing with dynamics and then a religion with scientology. but that's the line MIKE this isn't the landmark forum. This is tony robins get together. This isn't were erhard

es than all of that stuff, it's of that. But then he jumps into a religion. Then he gets tax exempt status now we're in a whole different world right, it's kind of less as you describe the sky I'm a storyteller, sometimes I'm a bullshitter. I liked to memory eyes, lots of quotes from famous people and I'll string them together in men. Cases to create the illusion of a deeper level of intelligence that I actually possess. I've done that my whole career, that's what a house does. He cried you know the illusion of competence and deep knowledge in short burst, where it really is- and I know that- and I was too Buddy last night, who went to vegas and solved david blame and he sang mikey. Just you can't believe you just can't believe the stuff this guy does and I symbol

he's a magician, of course, he's very good at it, but here's the thing you know if David Blaine says I'm from another planet, okay, I m of different species, and that's why I can push the needle through my arm. That's why I can hold my breath for nine and a half minutes. That's why I can jump off in aid story, roof and landed a pilot cardboard and be fine. If you start pointing to something outside of you as the proximate cause of europe policies, then you're no longer a bullshitter, then your con man If you get a tax exempt status on top of that now, gaiety bar the door, Now, a lot of pierre we're gonna make a lot of money. Yes and there's an interesting thing. I don't know if you watch the vow and now the season two of the vow about Keith, Rennie, airy and next year, a veto.

Www veto, w, like the foul like the letter yeah, it's unbelievable, that's my mom relaxing! I wife gives me a hard time about all it. I say that law, I say law. She says no more. Like the thing, you know the thing that the police, yeah- that's what I said. Law no that's more. More and more like folk lore. No, it's more anyway! That's I'd like to know exactly and my very long right, right and centre have ours it s exactly. She says you put hours were you both do and you take them out where they supposed to be what's wrong with you strangely and what am I spoke like I'm sorry, do do do do do do do do do do do. Are you hiring? I bet you are, and I bet your look

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Key through the area stole a lot from habit a lot. If you watch that series, it is remarkable, and now I've become pretty good friends with mock vicinity and Sarah Edmunds into the main protagonists. In that and like they use even the same terminology: the technology suppresses and going up. The level I mean is like both of them told me oh yeah, Keith ordinary, studied, scientology peas, study they'll run how but about how you go about creating, because very similar in many respects to the scientology you'll. Never victor you're gonna be because of your own life and all this sort of ship. His big mistake, however, was he didn't become a religion, so he was able to be prosecuted without hiding behind the protection of the first amendment which,

is almost absolute honestly I mean it is so you know it's not just tax exempt status, taxi status in the united states is the only thing that conferred on any organization a religious status if you're tax exempt as a religious entity. That's the closest thing even get to governments stamp of you, our religion, because you know the first amendment says government en route. You know, church are supposed to be very separate not like in most of the other was countries in the western world. So sorry, Technology now has this sort of cloak that doesn't just keep it from having to pay tax. It keeps it from having to report or be

in any way open to government oversight. Theirs no requirement for providing any information about how much money that taking in all what their spending it on and it automatically confers the rights that are afforded to all religions in the united states, based on hundreds of years of law, that they basically can decide to do what they want to do, and the courts in the government can't? Second guess it as long it's not clearly in violation of a particular statute or more so you, can get away with enormous amounts of stuff because of that and make enormous amounts of money. You set an early on in the show, my brilliantly, that

Scientology is using your tax dollars to operate what is effectively and intelligence and destroy your enemies and that's true, I always say, look if you're paying taxes in the united states. Europe tax dollars are literally subsidizing. These abuses, that is going on in scientology, and they are going on to this day and to be clear, we're talking about kidnapping, we're talking about illegal surveillance. We're talking about. you're a long list of things that essentially what's the acronym internal organization, that handles that. Oh sir office of special affairs Joseph and I was the head of that for like twenty years

and I'm telling you telling your listeners that the policies of l run habit. The right meetings of the hell run hubbub dictate exactly what is to be done by this organised action within scientology and there are like hundreds of sea all members who are part of this particular department of scientology and his directives include. You know you must do destroy them utterly. If they are an enemy of scientology, you find out what they are seeking to protect. You threaten it. They won't shut up, you cost them their job, there, a case offices, their intelligence agents, thereof, spies and plants. All of this, off is old, laid out in the writings about run hubbard. You can find an all over

the internet on my blog everywhere. This is the actual policy scientology money is being spent millions of dollars a year are being spent to carry out these campaigns to destroy people to smear them and dual this sort of stuff and They continue to have tax exempt status. sort of my crusade at this point and leah azores on labelling to buck? U s government, I rest do something. This is crazy. There is supposedly a clause. In the irish regulations. That says, one of the requirements for maintaining your tax exempt status is

You are not in violation of public policy and public policy. Is this very, very vague, poorly defined term, but it basically means you're not doing things that the general populace would find to be objectionable, and how about you know spying on people A painter, still, a garbage setting up cameras outside their house or paying for Google adds to smear them. That stuff is all acceptable. Well, the problem is, there is one supreme court case that defines what public policy is in the united states and its a case called bob jones university. The commissioner, where bob jones university is a christian university and they would do

ruminating against applicants by race, and so they iris revoke their exemption, and the supreme court said. While the iris had a right to revoke their exemption because there, in violation of public policy, they can continue to do whatever They want to do they just copy tax exempt doing it So now the eye, arrests and air- and everybody has interpreted public policy to mean you have to be racially discriminatory in order to be in violation of public policy, Ok, I'm off in the weeds, but none of them was but ok, so why couldn't they then take a similar approach. With the gay thing I mean from what I've read

Yeah scientology, doesn't exactly roll out the red carpet to the homosexual community, big time absolutely right mike absolutely, and I'm so happy to be talking to someone that actually thinks with these things and goes yeah. Well. What about this? Like that's good, see, we need people, all in congress to stop yelling at the irs and saying what are you people doing like? They got three billion or forbid billion dollars over there, we could be collecting that and taxes from them and preventing people from being abused. Let's get a bit why don't you get on your received a horse and start crusading for this mike you mentioned before you know, people being abuse. Can you speak to our audience of the kind of physical and verbal abuse that you went through? Oh just a taste, so they understand just how crazy this is

Well, I recommend that you watch going clia because going clear will actually give you a little taste of what life in the whole was like. The whole was a prison that was created by the leader of scientology or the current leaders scientology david miscarriage at a property in riverside counting california, where senior scientology officials, myself included, were locked up. The doors were bought windows were scrooge shot nobody could escape. We were that twenty four four hours a day, seven days a week no shower food was brought in. You know left over food. We slept on floor. There was no air conditioning and this is in the desert. Very it gets very hot out there yeah it does get pretty hot out there, as does captain obvious here, you know with

the really pressing daily activity, was literally beating people up in order to get them to confess to enough bad stuff that it might satisfied David, miss cabbage and I recount in the book a lot of examples of the physical things that happen punching and king and throwing ashtrays and objects of people. There was also the emotional torture that people go through and the humiliation I mean the humiliation is almost unthinkable to describe it accusations that are made about people constantly and having them. Who humiliating things and keeping every body in

higher echelons of scientology on edge and not sure whether tomorrow you're gonna, be in the shit or tomorrow. You gonna be ok, which is a pretty typical tactic of dictators and despots through history, because they don't we any cabal forming the is gonna overthrow them, so everybody's kind of like who can I trust. I can't trust anybody. It's a very very abusive world chuck. I dont know that you can really grass in trying to describe it brief lee just how insane this stuff is. Spend a lot of time trying to lay it out in the book to without making it seem like this is just a horror story, but it is a horror story. You know

I go back, I re what's going clear and they look at spanky and I hear the story of spanky and what happened to her daughter, and I mean that stuff is like, and it is all based everything sort of grows out of this fundamental idea that what is good for scientology is what is good for you, whether it is resulting in you looking like a skeleton, because you haven't eaten for three months and slept you know. Four I was a night for a year on end and you look like I did when John Sweeney interviewed me on the BBC show. That is I'm thinking yes, but there is a great pity there is a larger thing, my well being

My comfort, my happiness, is not important in the bigger picture and this justified is so much terrible stuff happening? Oh my god. and then you add on to work the other big sort of trick. Harboured played on the world or at least on scientologists, which is you completely responsible for your own state that it is because of whatever you have done in your past, that you are suffering today. If I walk out the front door of my house right now, get run over by a car scientology reaction to that is to sit me down in front of it. Amy and asked me when I ran over someone with a car, because I pulled that in and then

charge you three hundred dollars or three hundred thousand dollars. Algeria effort is yet exactly yeah. I saw it look. I think it's important to point out too that we made this point at the beginning. We can't fall into the binary good guy, bad guy thing like what you just said, sounds like what hubbard is pushing or is the level of personal responsibility among all of his adherents, and I applaud that. I personal responsibility is good, but, like every other good thing, you can take it too far and that's the biggie like he gets you with a good thing You don't want to be a victim show of hands. Right wants to be a victim. Nobody wants to be a victim right, right and You ask a series of other questions, and now all of a sudden, your way out there on the thin branches and yes, how the hell did I get here, how look chuck the big answer,

Your earlier question, and mike tell me if I got this wrong, but when you look at the whole and when you look internal disciplinary measures, which, basically, what that is, you really have to highlight the word internal, because this isn't like escaping from the gulag. This is it getting out of Stalin. Thirteen. This isn't like in over the wall and running to freedom. We get out of the hole, you know what you do. You go back to work right. You go back to work. You never get out of the hole. You're, relax, you're in a small hole at the bottom of a much wider hole, that you're in the whole man You're always in the hall that is so right by that is so exactly rocket. And yet I watched you want CBS, sorry chuck, but you got him, I mean they're attorney. is sitting there. I think was David Axelrod he's doing the journalism thing right journey.

Losing all over the place there and she just square in the camera and says no. There is no whole he's mcgann up he's, making the whole hang up now, what are we to do as citizen, is trying to trying to make sense of this. We somebody's not just wrong somebody's like real wrong, might grow up wrong somebody is being paid a lot of money to sit there and say those things now. Just think about this. Might how insane is it that cps recorded that? I recall that in a view would Jim Axelrod a week before the release data the book- and it was a great and of you like pushed me. He asked me tough questions. He wasn't like just puff pulling away, but it was a very honest interview that went on for two hours. It was supposed to air the day after the release of the book. The twenty eighth of september.

Scientology, sent a delegation to CBS, including monique, Yang and numerous threat. Letters and whatever else they did say you can add this. This is blah blah blah blah blah blah and eventually My publisher was like not really happy about that, because they had often an exclusive to see bs. You know I could again, a b c I gotta go on NBC or whatever, but they chose CBS, partly because Simon and Schuster aren't gonna subsidiary of paramount and so is CBS shirt, so they went with the system company and they buckle to the pressure of scientology and then the competing pressure of second, just going hey, wait a minute use. What are you doing and decided

that the compromise was to have this lawyer come on about my book now. I actually wonder if this is ever happened before. If there has ever been. but this is my personal member memoir. This is not supposed to be the encyclopedia here of scientology, it's not even larry rights. I'm a reporter reporting on here thing that I have the new research, etc, etc This is my memoirs. This is my experience in my life and they a lawyer come on and not a scientologist. by the way, and she made it very clear to Jim Axelrod, I'm not assign told us, I'm a practising catholic who came on to

deny things that she knows nothing about like she's, never been to the whole. She doesn't have a clue what the whole is, but she got told go out there say there is no such thing as the whole, where I was sort of a clever little weasel, because the whole was this. Bandit after it was exposed. So there is no such thing was there ever well that question remains I don't know how she would answer that one and you She also says oh yeah mike render. He only does the his own. source of income is to attack scientology. While that's interesting, because there are a lot of other people that I work for and continue to work for this day that have nothing to do with attacking scientology. But I tell you who has made tens of millions of dollars money keenly

from scientology? That's all she does. Shucks. What are we paying mike for this one? For this interview, yeah laurel and hardy handshake, I gave you a discount rate might have had a leaf of my good friends Is it for a billion years? Delicate cbs interviews you for two hours, yeah who owns the totality of that footage and whereas, if CBS did you ever think about, and I'm sure this would be illegal, but whenever I do interviews anymore, I don't care where I than weathers for print or whether it's for you don't like guns also podcast, I usually take out my phone and just a record, sometimes actually set it up, and you know just to have my version of it. It's the truth. I am. I wish you'd

able to do that. I'd love to see- and I know people would love to see not the edited version at the conversation that you had which have Axelrod. I want to see that it was a fascinating. It was like this conversation. It was actually a conversation. I mean he had notes and stuff, but he had actually read the book like he wasn't like some of the interviews that I've done a clearly the people. Having read the book, they got like a couple of talking points and they just like jump into talks about Tom. Your nose noted all the gold and the cold kidman and done about blah blah one about katy homes like and all these people ass. You are caddy homes and I keep saying I don't have include that katy homes that all happen after I left either. I you know, I just don't know anything about katy on we'll tell us about katy homes anyway, so it was a very interesting, informative conversation and he

Similar to the conversation that I had with with patrick that David Patrick, that David was challenging he challenged me on a bunch of things, and I love that I loved, because it made me think about stuff and makes me go who you're what is actually the point here. Is this something that I'm missing about a or is this something more important or is there some other angle about this? What are we doing here like I want to? I want to be as open and as interested in finding out how things work as people are interested in finding out what I have just like. I want to hear I wonder weeks. Laura, I want to know more. I don't want to know less. I don't think I know it all, but I have a very good go ahead MIKE. No, no and sister, you are

a very good question and I am keen to see if that's possible. Well, I have an observation with will be followed by a question that I believe that I managed to expect patients is one that might render has not heard before. Like your previous question might even tell me if I'm wrong, so I listened to your book MIKE and it was great and one of the things that you said repeatedly in there. We first started to get the doubt in your head. You know and you're being abused by the chairman of the board, he's physically abusing you he's verbally abusing you. You say this multiple times in the book, but I'm still a scientologist. You now so there's this idea that you are still like really the problems that to come. The doubt that came into your mind was because of david miscarriage and not because of l run hubbard. So my question to you- and you tell me if you ve ever been ass- this before is, if alarm

which were still alive. Would you still be a scientologist? Well, Lastly, I gotta tell you sorry chuck. I have been asked that caution before our right, maybe once twice once was good enough. My answer is, I think I probably would, because I don't think the spell would have been broken enough for me to decide that I had to escape like the final straw. As you see in the book, was that crazy interview with John sweeney- and you know when he was doing his programme for bbc panorama and then ultimately miscarriage, saying, you'll, never coming back to the: u s and the sort of thing it held me there for so long? Was the obligation that I felt

children and my wife. I did not want to abandon them, but he basically took that out of the equation out of my hands and I went there's nothing left. I mean life socks and it's all horrible and is always bear and never seems to get better, but the one thing that I was hanging on to miss cabbage took away and if he hadn't done that I probably would never have left and have I not left. I wouldn't have gotten enough distance from the bubble. Think you know, I call scientology the bubble. This bubble. Think that I can then event

too late, because when I first left, I still consider myself a scientologist for many years. I was absolutely convinced that still, the only hope for mankind was scientology. It was just being sky. up by david miscarriage in the organization and only with having enough distance was. I then able to get a perspective about but himself and finally break that mine prison like the first one was the sea organ being inside the organization I had to get out, the organization to get my brain washed enough to be able to recognise that there was that hobbled. Wasn't all that he had been cracked up to be and, as I said, Russell Miller's book really

He was sort of the thing that made that happen, and at that point I, and started to feel like ok, now I can really start thinking for myself. You remember the moment the road to deny Ask us moment when the scales, all from your eyes and its it makes that audible quick. In your mind I mean I, I look back in my own life, and those parapet is right. There big moments. I just wonder if there was one specific for you.

Well somewhere in the middle of that Russell Miller book was that was like that was linked. The big I went, I get it. I suddenly sort of thought to myself. I get it. I actually get what the deal was with l run hubbard. Now. I actually understand that this, was a perhaps larger than life, but certainly not love than men. Kind of you know, god like vigour, who made the most out of the single skill that he really possessed, which was retail, telling stories, and I went the you know you,

back and you go and o t three, the great z news story on the wall of fire- it's, like you, know, pulp science fiction storytelling, and do you know my that habits added like he originally and dynamics would say. Well, I've done all this research, and I researched this- and I tried this out on two hundred and seventy three people in savannah georgia or at the blah blah a blog and I did those and I did, and they didn't do any of that bullshit didn't do anything he just like made stuff up as they went along, but later on in his life after he discovered past lives, and there was a remarkable book by how the that is still used by scientology to this day called the history of man or a history of man. And you know this is a cold blooded factual account of the

last seventy six trillion years of existence. This is so bonkers. This book is like that's. Why scientologists derogatory term clams because he says that all people on this planet evolved or there bodies at least evolved and one point. There were clam sitting on the sea shore and they open and close, and they

with tears coming down their eyes and the opening and closing of the clam is now the jaw of a human. And if you go like this to someone you can make them have a toothache. In fact, the teeth can actually fall out from doing this to them. I'm serious yeah and that's why scientologists have referred to as clams by anti scientologist but hubbard then after all of this past life stuff came up, started, saying well, see he has perfect recollection of all of his past lives, unlike others who are it's sort of dim, and you know you have to like struggle to try and find anything. He had perfect recall, and so he would start saying that

His expertise on things was based on his experience and planets like seventy four million years ago, and so he understands how computers work and he understands how to operate planets with a computer. He understands how blah blah and this and that- and this has become accepted fact- in the world of scientology so now scientologists pay. I'm going describe something to you and you're gonna go no! This gotta be bullshit. No, it's gotta be bullshit nope. It's absolutely true. Scientologists pay five thousand dollars to do what is called the cause resurgence rundown, because resurgence

down consists entirely of running in a circle around a pull. This was developed from habits, hold track, which is what passed lives, a golden scientology whole track. Reach much of how you are lying flows of your energy and that phaetons spirits when they had a traumatic experience used to go out and circle around stars for hundreds of years going in a big circle until they had real line the thing, and so this now has become. First of all, it was a punishment programme that we had at the gold base where we had to go out and run around the damn pole in a hundred and ten degree like and just not stop

The only order in this process is keep running. That's it. That's all they are allowed to say to you, then, they made this into a sale. bull item and scientologists pay five thousand dollars to be told run around that Paul share eunuch Ok ever away that technology fur. Not! Then, once you some days you get some days, you get the whole someday. You get both from meal to hold well again, though, as you say, this he's a great writer of science fiction and he stated that lane he would be remembered. Probably, as one of the most inventive mines to put pen to paper heads in gene bury said at the end of star trek. Look here's the deal I come from. The future

and what I've given. You is a gift in the form of entertainment. I've. Given you a peak tens, hundreds of years this is what's coming, my friends, then I guarantee you, many thousands of people would have said yeah. I leave it. Of course, I believe it I mean it was so apocryphal there was so much prescient in what he did and then the next thing is just? Let's find a mechanism whereby money can change hands. We'll get you closer to the transporter awareness level, where the phaser awareness level right and so forth and so on, and then you ro a little tax exempt. On top of that and Bob your uncle, I mean here I'm not monday morning. Quarter backing I'm just looking at it and trying to unpack it. A writer of science fiction created a really

Jim and people stood in line to run around a pole, yeah its remarkable, and it is remarkable how much money people are willing to pay for this. How hard was it for the lawyer to say the churches were three four billion dollars? oh, I think that maybe her last appearance, that was, I do not want to go there and good for Jim good for Jim. Yes wishing, yes, absolutely I put a tweet out and said you know thank you for at least pushing to have to admit. Finally that scientology does have billions of dollars. This is a really important thing. It's important for people to know that. It's not just that they have tax exempt status, its there's a lot of money sitting there. That could be gotten and use some one to do something more beneficial with and is

a lot of it just in empty buildings, oh yeah, so much real estate, it's become a real estate empire I mean scientology, I say now is a business mask rating as a religion, and probably it should more accurately be scientology is a criminal organisation masquerading as fundraising business, slash you no real estate empire pretending to be a religion, but it's crazy, how much property they have and the reason they have all that property now is because of many giggling, while not strictly speaking. Ronicky angling is the tax attorney for signing the head of the tax attorney business in full, intelligence and the irs is one of these

things is. You can accumulate massive amounts of liquid assets or cash as exempt organization, because the theory of exempt organizations is this disposed to be done We need good for the giving society at large that the government doesn't have to do so. We grant them taxes and status because they're giving sir, the people they helping the homeless does not allow whatever. So if you accumulate too much money. You run a foul of the exam organization division of the irs, but if you buy property, The irs is not allowed to say all these buildings are all empty, because that is approaching on the policy of whether a relief just organisation can say: what are they need their buildings for or not and that's a violation.

first amendment. So they don't go there, so you can buy thousands of empty bill meetings and say this is all we need all this to minister to well parishioners, its complete bullshit and the asset remains on the books of scientology. They don't have give it away to anyone, but don't you think, there's an incredible The opportunity for a congress person senator to really take it upon themselves. I get there's a couple of big obstacles, but but to fix that loophole to say that in the confines of a five or one c, three, no, you can't you can't hide behind elsie's buying property in your name, I'm in check out of you, solve the aerial shot of clear water and the prince reacted look of what's gotten into their buying this, he had a line that idea right and that's just a small part of the overall global plan that has

changed at all just seems like an enterprising congressmen could make his bones on this thing. Oh my I couldn't agree with you more and I believe that through a the exposure, that social media has brought in the internet in general. Has brought you know formation is poison to courts. It just is ultimately is what kills them the incredible work that was done, the first really by the saint Peter. burg times, then Larry right and alex givney with going clear and then our seas he's on the aftermath had a big impact. I think We are changing the public perception of scientology is changing. It used to be people, sort of when I know anything about it. Isn't that isn't that the thing that Tom cruise is involved in now days,

it's more yeah, we know about them. We don't want to have anything to do with it, and you know there was a programme, caution that you see always in society you sort with the civil rights movement. You ve seen it with gay rights. To begin with, nobody wants to publicly come out in favour at the very beginning its all political figures of note will be opposed to gay rights. Then it will slowly so changing and then you'll have people who generally p, won't say anything. Then you ll have some people come out in favour of it then, by the end of the sort of cycle it becomes

politically opposite to. You can now say your opposed to gay rights. That's death! These days, you, even if you are opposed them, you can't come out and say yet, but there are a bunch of people who will come out and use. That is their platform. I believe we are reaching that tipping point. Where scientology is gonna become something that some enterprising politicians at federal level are going to latch on hu as a cause that just like you said, Interestingly, I don't know if you've been watching this, but that mayoral race, in LOS angeles, is for the first time in the issue of scientology as a political, football and care bass and richard turning thing, rick caruso, rick caruso. Are

like trying to outdo one another as to who can shit on scientology the biggest as a plus interest, and that is massive change in the world, and I see that coming soon and hopefully some federal politicians will take this up because it's not just the vote, get it. It's a good thing to do. To save some people for real abuse and maybe also recover some money. to the: u S, treasury there by night? How can there be something wrong with that? You know it's amazing. How many see words are flying around in this conversation from certainty to courts, to communication to congress, to curiosity and alter least celebrities. I don't care about katy home

I'm not going to ask you about that. I've heard all the Tom cruise stories. I know the john travolta stories. I get the kate moss thing, blah blah blah blah blah, but what is it about? the celebrity relationship that's so unique to scientology. Is it the fact that they are? a new and better way to communicate that just resonates with some, people. Who were I mean, let's face it, wherein the communications business, but if not that what, when the world is no, it is that mike- and I absolutely is that that is the pitch, but also recognise hubbard in the fifth these started the idea that scientology needs to actively go after to recruit celebrities because they set the trends in society. If people see a celebrity involved in something you know they may have become interested in that they are a great way of

reaching a lot of people with your message, and you know that was spank ease world yes bank. He was in the celebrity weldon scientology and she Tell you yes, that's what we pitch to these people will help you with your ability to communicate every artist wants to communicate better blah, blah blah blah blah blah, but good news there hasn't been any new big celebrity in scientology since Jeez. I don't know since more, like the only actual celebrity big sort of name who has become prime, and then in the last five years, is elizabeth moss, but she was raised design told she doesn't really account He was brought into the world of scientology, like John Travolta or tom cruise or Kirsty alley were back in the aid ease on nine

ease or whatever it was that they first got started. They got hot and brought in and became public faces of scientology. There ain't none happening that Timothy shallow me, eddie bodies agent, at this point in the hollywood, if they even leave. The idea that they were going to get involved in scientology would tell me get away to engage, do or otherwise I drop in you the client, then I got to ask you a break. My word: what do you do if your top cruises agent because Tom cruise I mean it was father, son and holy ghost. It was l ron hubbard. It was David Miscavige who was Tom cruise he's still such a huge part of that, and now you got top gun great movie. maybe the biggest movie star in the world. How is he advised and how is he going to balance the teachings of hubbard with the d

and of the ten percent harry and the very business the monstrous business that is built. Well, if you'll know these days, he doesn't talk about scientology gear. In fact, he requires for junkets for movies that there be no scientology question, and there is a black list of reporters who have done scientology stories who are not allowed to interview him. So write about it in the book about the battles over this with paramount and pat kings Lee and his earlier representation also realise that he is like you know he's, see a new note, tent Paul he's not just a tent poles paramount he's a sea, eight, ten pole and his part paula,

is married to rick necesita, one of the three guys that run cia. I mean it's like he's I think seen the light that promise. scientology and mixing up with trying to promote movies is probably not good business. I think his agents are just tell him good good job when used talking about scientology things started going good again said the dude anymore. That's what I think Well, look where ninety minutes, I wanna, be respectfully your time, so I think a good place to land. The plane is with another seaward, which is courage and all of this to me. I look at all the players. We ve talked about and summit we're cowards? Neither seaward some of them are courageous. Spanky was courageous. I think what you ve done is courageous. I won't point out the cowards, but in the end this thing has to tip the

all always do sooner or later. So that's my last question what has to happen? What has to happen for the wheels to come off the bus? The tax exempt status needs to be revoked because that will open the door to transparency about the finances and how much money He is actually being spent on private investigators and how much money they spending on all the things they claim to be doing to benefit the world, but really just pr photo ops and once that stuff is exposed. That's the real beginning of the end. It'll take a while for this monster to be dismantled

when you ve got that much money and that much property, it doesn't just go away overnight, but I think the thing will be that the internal world of scientology starts to lose confidence and that certainty that everything that they are doing is right and everything that they are doing is above board and that they are being told the truth by david miscarriage at these cookie events that he holds that scientologist get the news. That is what I think and mike the sooner that happens, the better, because people are being hurt every day. You know, I think about what you said before. It's based on the box. That hubbard is put himself in. He can't be a little bit wrong. It's not enough to say: okay well, he's either exactly who he claimed to be

are among the greatest deceivers to ever walk the planet. It can't be somewhere in between. He has to be the messiah or the bare faced messiah, and that seems be a pretty simple choice. The evidence demands a verdict and your contributing a critical part of that evidence. I think thank you so much. Thank you. Honestly. It's been a real pleasure talking to you guys, really really interesting in full but if I thank you we're just a couple of guys who have known each other like forty five years and now we find I found their way into this really weird place and look. I know there are a lot of other players out there, and I know you ve talked to a lot of them, but I there's a long list of peace. Well, who have done a lot of brave things over the years, but it's rare to find buddy, who was occupying

the position. You were in to be sitting where you're sitting now. So I wish you the very best of luck with your father I hope some our another. There can be a reconciliation and I hope anybody out there. You are not to turn this into p. I, but I think there is still a cop awareness network. That's out there this is not just scientology. There see so many people who have bought in to the business of believing a weird thing and that's ok, that's their best, this, but man once your personal economy is wrapped up into it, you're just inches away from oblivion. my right makers are still some general place out. There were people can go to started deprogramming process while yet but dont say call a wireless network as scientology took over all that I still want to believe it not, but there are plenty of them MIKE and in fact

I started a foundation with a few other survivors from scientology called the aftermath foundation. We are devoted to helping people escape from scientology and providing them with the resources that they need to be able to do that because many people who leave scientology, don't have any money. Some of them don't have licenses licences that an empty phrase. any more than of any to go, and so we assist with that. But there are many organization like all you have to do? Is Google you just have to google cult, you know whatever organization you, how long they more they get. Google MIKE how long before they got gonna go. I made honestly I was looking up your australian sixty minutes and the very top result that I click on was a scientology hit piece on that yeah?

pay for those adds a new tax dollars, the subsidizing unbelievable paying for those that so yeah, but remember, there's another seaward There's one last thing that I could say might that I would like, which is so of the message of my book. Overall, it's never too late to change no matter what circumstance you may be, and you don't have to be in scientology or in a cult you could be in a bad relationship. You can be in a job, you hate and whatever you can change it if I could escape scientology when I was fifty two years old and walk out the door with literally a briefcase that was I had no money. I had nowhere to go. I had absolutely nothing, any body can do it and you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Is possible. I am living proof of the old dog that learn new tricks, so have hope- and I hope my informs people beyond Irene. We wanted it to to be something that whether you are scientology or a cold or whatever you could learn something: on it or see something or feel something about your own circumstance. So I just want everybody to know you. Life can be better. I hope you, Well, it's billion gum years by my creator thanks my soul. I thank you thanks. So much if you please leave some sties, I d give

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