Which of you, abso number two hundred eighty five, the way I heard it this one is called, scream inside your heart, scream inside your heart, MIKE, don't do it out loud It's a translation from a japanese expression that I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce, but it came up late in the conversation out here with my guest just in heart, just in heart has written a book called gone viral and I hope it does actually because it is filled with information in sight. Appear

in fact, about what we got right and well. We got wrong over the last two and a half years regarding covert and spoiler alert, underneath the what we got right column is nothing while the subtitle of his book is how covert drove the world insane and that's what really drew me to it, because I felt like I was goin lupi for the last two years, He explains a lot of reasons. I would look. I think we all have yeah look, I mean so. Ok, it's gonna be a little controversial for some people, because I in general it safe to say that as we get some distance between the lock, downs and where we are right now. People are more willing to look back and talk about what we got right and what we got wrong. But I think it's also pretty clear that some people aren't ready to do that. Person I wanted to talk to this guy, not because I

with certainty that he's correct about anything? I happened to agree with a lot of it, but that's beside the point I want to talk to him because I think we're going to go through this routine. Again. Das, don't say it. Well I'm not. I don't know that we're going to go through lockdowns again, but there's going to be another covert, there's going to be another variant, there's going to be another thing. You know, hopefully not for a long long time, but there's going to be another thing that fills our hearts with dread and that thing is going to push us to make all kinds of decisions and do all sorts of things that we might live to regret. Now I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems regret is on the menu right now when people look back at everything from school closures to masks two protocols to social distancing to vaccines, to boost

is so I'm just gonna throw it all out. There are no, not saying anything new. This isn't a terribly controversial or political conversation we shouldn't be, but it might be country first, you because I don't know where you are, as chalk said moments before we started recording if you're sitting home right now alone. Listening to this your mask on your probably not going to enjoy the conversation, but If your genuinely curious about what we all just went through an you'd like to hear from a guy who's got some real skin in the game. You know he stopped his sight pretty much right when the locked down to begin what was called reasonable ground, rational ground

I shall ground yeah rational out right, so any out whether work. I think that work right. So what you're about the here is the opinions of a guy who will be the first to tell you he's not in immunology he's not an epidemiologist he's, not a doctor, but he is a data. Geek he lives in breathes data and when he started looking at the early data around some other some of them claims that were leading to many the policies he saw all kinds of warning signs and in many cases his concern has been justified. So now he's got a book out, it's called gone irish and scream inside your heart is an express The term I mean a sad to have is to feel good head of the summer title of all time, but I think its super appropriate for what you're about to hear chocolate

thoughts before I seamlessly throw to this advertisement. I can't find ashur natsir pal christa, rational ground. Maybe that's it. I'm saying it wrong I shall ground dot, org of rational ground dot. Org stand by folks. Before I throw this commercial. Want to make sure I got this right, pretty sure it's rational around an artist, it's nothing's coming up here when maybe I'm going to try dot com hold on. I think it's dotcom yup, it's definitely dot com. all right. Well folks, I apologise for that. It was a whole you could have driven a truck through brought to you by the one and only chuck, Klaus Meyer, former producer, of the way I heard it. It's been swell people etc so do eighty five scream inside your art and it all gets gone. Right. After this

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zero point: five percent pages and low. Israel's requires ready, in the conditions that I and others are subject to change without notice. That is visited ice, free cars sure The here we go how's that for a chuck, all better. That sounds pretty good. How's that sound to you ross, how's it sound to you justin. I think you sound terrific mike it's crazy,

thanks for have me you're very welcome thanks for coming here, I'm full disclosure halfway through your book, and viral and I'm so angry. I dont know that I'm going to be able to finish the rest of it that's a common refrain! We hear that alot very painful in recent times I mean there's just so much to talk about, and I know you ve been so busy promoting this thing, but first things first I was literally warming up my coffee here when chuck sent me a thing and you're suing face Can twitter now, or is this been going on for a while, I'm out of the gate with that come in hot weather, since last year, right so last year you know Jen saki, the press secretary of president Biden may the announcement next

to the surgeon general that they were indeed working with facebook and twitter to take down posts and accounts. They felt were not upholding these sort of approved narrative and what they saw their shortly before tat. My account god taken down, others did on facebook and twitter, and the post I put was pretty benign. It was just there's, not a ton of evidence. masking kids is a positive effect on curbing cases for our schools and the evidence shows that it could actually be harmful, and for that one info graphic like supported by a bunch of studies taken down so yeah. Don't you think? Maybe that could have been a straw that broke their back? I came ass? You first with rational ground right very, very early in the so you ve been a jagged little pill for these guys furled from the jump, so I guess maybe we'll circle back and get

all that, but I am sure my feeling, as I was listening to your book first and foremost, was this weird mix of anger. But also vindication, because on a personal level I mean you can fill a book with what I don't know, but I saying to shock from the beginning in anybody else. Who would listen to me on my facebook page that what first going on here. It is what it is, but if we don't have a metric if we don't have some sort of benchmark by which we can say. Okay, we're gonna, get back to normal, then I don't know they will ever get back to normal, and it was just that for me. It was that nagging feeling that really turned end to something else and metastasized into the kind of discomfort. I know you feel and many many many millions of other people feel. But, unlike me, you wrote a book about it

through this thing in such a declarative way. That will help. It just strikes me as important just an old thanks for me. I'm so glad you won t get. My wife is super excited tunas. It is too she's a big fan of yours by we're just watch and the other day she's been zoning out at night to last man standing and is: is that, like other, it is like like a tip brother? They can that's correctly. It was so strange. I've, antimony, pod podcast before and neither one of us quite new bureau uses. Never but these things, if it's gonna, be good or bad or weird or what but halfway through rehearsals, we were like good grief. You know I can come back here every week. It could be Well, no, I mean he's such a great guy and I don't have an older brother in real life, but he was my tv older brother- and it was just a kick working with that guy. Does a fun upsets like this? I'm glad

I bet if he were on this call. He does some questions for you tell ye as yeah. Maybe bombs, left and right grief. So, let's start where we started when things crap the bed rational grounds. You're in a brady bunch type situation. You got three kids previous married at your wife s, three good, suddenly bob guessing there, eight people in the house at the same time, life is not the way it used to be. yeah, it's a little crazy to going into twenty twenty. I had a host of clients that I was really proud of right. One was a doing golf excursions for baby boomers right, the just hold your laughter. The next one was going to be. It was college. Kids was a platform for parents to send their kids to college and figure out which one they should go to and then the third one was my favorite client was high and vacation club for wealthy families. So you can imagine all three of those clients were dead by the time had part

and April came around being in the leisure space. It was quite the scene, and so I had some time on my hands and I thought well. My background is really as data guy doing just a big, deep analysis and that's what I do companies are coming to say here is where your sales are going wrong. Here's where your company is going off, and let me show you these really cool dashboards. I can help you understand how to get back into shape bright, and so I say well, let's see what we can do to get the country back into shape and when I ran the numbers all of a sudden, I realized, I think these or the wrong numbers, I would see what was coming out of italy. What was coming out of china to the first countries obviously to be hit- and I said those calculations are not quite right and I knew a little bit about infectious diseases. Just by chance, two years previously here in san diego, where I am, I was hospitalized for two weeks of nearly died, the step to shock staff and connection. You know that

actual floral on your skin somehow got into my bloodstream, and so I thought myself again some time my hands at hospital and what to do I run data wow. How did this tiny little thing? Almost kill me right. What were the stats my survival, and so I took some of that same learnings of my data background and then just my general interests to keep occupied. I really don't like being in the I'd and keeping for my job, and so when a random numbers I realized doctor. for example, was indicating to congress that one out of one hundred people will die from this thing, and I said I don't think that's the number, and so I found a group of experts and analysts and ragtag moms and dads who are like hey look. I know this isn't my domain and as we say, I normally would insert myself into someone else's domain, but you know like they had no problem, inserting themselves. to my domain. My kids education, my boss, Bruce shop, my coffee shop, my business by Jim and I said something just amiss. Then I think it

the end it was basically I was brought up- is really a very strong, proud american answer since we're going to thanksgiving time, I've got, sectors on the mayflower and everything else there. I really proud of sort of my herod share and when I looked at this I said I don't think you can go wrong if you stick by our founding document since order that pillars right, because that's for a baseline of pursuit of happiness, they cannot stop that right. It's tracks is like your plow is in the field right, you're, looking out the window and they're saying Nana you're going to have to let that rust. I can't let you go out there and plow the field and you're like what am I going to do to support my family will will pay you for that, I don't know, that's quite right, and so the group of people I was with were the same way and we ended up somehow getting in touch our scott atlas reached out to us and he's a professor at Stanford. His whole experience in his professional career was

public policy in applying the desire to go into the policy right. So he called us said hey. I need some help at the white house. Can you provide me with charge or data was a pro bono will do anything you ask. So we have a group of people on twitter just every morning get together and say: okay, what is scott ne? What is atlas deed and we try to produce these information. We thought by the end of the summer. We'd have this thing quelled and over with and everything else there, but the way it was set up was just kept going and going so that was sort of the intro to this whole thing and it changed the trajectory of my life. I never thought I would be sort of you know, leading the charge to as mit dubbed me. The anti mask brigade

leader of the anti mass brigade, and so it was a crazy scene to see all these people really pushing back in such a dramatic way- and I said well- maybe we're over the target ray- were taken flak mirror over the targets. So that's the beginning of the story. So what I'd like to do? It's probably impossible, because politics has seeped into every single thing. There is, but the reason I think you're look is important and has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with all of it or not. It has to do with my belief that, we really need to look back with a dispassionate I really understand what we got right and we got wrong and why? Because it's coming back right, we're gonna go through some version of this dance again. and it just seems like the stakes are so high and honest,

For me, I'll take a lot of grief, I'm sure really for having you want just for having this conversation, cause it still hot for a lot of piano, it's difficult one right. It is but the other day I forget which now it was on, but I heard somebody make would really sound did like a rational plea for forgiveness or or maybe amnesty was the word. right. We want to look back on this and let us not be too hard on the people who got it wrong, and I thought you know what I'm not sure how I feel that it's not that I want to put anybody in the public stocks necessarily, but we have to understand

what was fundamentally wrong with our overall analysis and if that hurts people's feelings, I think maybe that's a fair trade. There is an article. This was too moyne iowa and there's an editorial in. There are talking about how the american people are perfectly willing to do whatever it takes, but they greatly dislike learning later that it was all for not and actually that was written in nineteen nineteen after the great stringency they had during that pandemic. So, a hundred years later, we didn't play, learn that less and right- and I think that's part of where a lot of people are right. I think a lot america's just dutifully said: hey, I I don't want to hurt anyone. I want to be a good person and, frankly, in o, stick your neck out. It seems

if you're going to get it slapped and whether it's a crossrail and someone yelling at you or the plane and someone yelling at you. No one wants to be yelled at and that's perfectly understandable, but I think in the end, what we have to do is kind of step back and say I all these interventions, whether it was the plexiglass, the mask, mandates, the social distancing, the quarantine from the slightest exposure and then especially, the impacts on our kids,

the school closures, the education lost, the learning loss from just you know, or the young kids masking, and not being able to see people's lips moving something as simple as that right. There is one stat that kind of cuts across political boundaries and everything else there. Everyone understand it's it's undeniable and it's something that happens when you throw a wrench in society and just put the brake on. We believe in the spring of twenty twenty that we probably missed about two hundred thousand cases of potential domestic abuse, because it's typically sharp eyed teachers and administer those who call those out and our kids word in school, I mean how many bruises to be miss our moms face because she was wearing a mask, a drop off

I mean those are sad. Reality is when you, when you just change the world as it exists right. That's the sad part of that equation, but I think there is like the. U have to have sort of like those stories than you have to come back and say: ok will what will we do differently? What can we do differently if this happens, he can cause a will. Well, my sense from reading your book is the answer to that question is every damn thing, every damn thing: we do differently I mean: am I wrong? Did we get everything in your view? Did public policy get anything right? Only the reopening right, and I think, even then we say how buddy it was too late everything from the transmission of the disease to the implementation of plexiglas too. Shutting down the country. The free forgiveness, p, p, p owns a mean. Obviously we need to do something because we are forcing businesses to close, but that

impacts, were filling now financially. I think those are direct repercussions there and it was crazy but the stories in the footnotes too, if you get the book is really itching is like. We talk about the teepee rush right and you'll find this very mike. I know you will that in that rush, what it was I'm no bryce didn't carrasco, getting the your big kirkland slab with my wife do before the shut down sure I had that they there really orderly right. Cassio had that down to a science, and but I remember, reading and talking to us executives from the paper industry and they told me the reason why we had so many tp shut down that we come in waves right that you'd have these scarce was that we do if you'll excuse the term, and I know you will half of our business at our business right? You can so ruin. You shut down your jim's when you shut down buildings, stadiums, universities, else. There do. You know the supply chain for those big sort of non

intimate swabs have no, not the cushy bear stuff were used at home. When you stop that train right all of a sudden, they have to reproduce this stuff at home, and then I talked to people in the sewage and water reclamation plants and their clogs were up by fifty to seventy. five percent every month because of the universal use of those clorox wipes. Remember early. He often people just flushing that it's down the toilet, I'm sure you heard from a lot of friends in your time as to what the impact that had in the blue collar seen when that all was happening. That's when calls to bring dirty jobs back really started to blow. My face have age right, because essential work was headline news, but it was the story of a giant he'll, be mass in some sewer, the site, of like the big ball in Indiana jones is, it nearly ran over harrison ford him. It was all just these wipes and crap combined together and

I haven't even thought about it in those terms, but when you shut down the account me in the society you shut down, two thirds of all the plumbing, so all of that became a very they are. Let me tell you a story about Michael her tato became Michael, her tato. This was an footnotes. It was really detailed. My editor thought this would be fine, but maybe later on, he wanted to really accessible up front. But in the footnote you'll find this. He was an engineer for property off of vegas strip and, of course, vegas shut down as well, and the way they today. Those hotels, as you know, is the anticipate a certain amount. People staying every day and the us, water flushing. To all the volume in gravity. You need to get things flowing it so literally his tie. Engineering team spent the spring of twenty twenty walking the halls like like, act nicholson in the shining, grenades and adjust should have flushing the toy

its findings to the lose watching. You know, because otherwise, legionnaire's disease, everything backs up, I mean all work and no play makes Michael toto a very, very bad. You know so these are things that no one really thought about the military side of the coin. Those are the humorous things right. The real and you know where you see the learning loss and our kids- and you know like you and I are- are dull for adults and we're gonna we're really going to deal with this as best we can lost a couple years years for life says back professionally in some ways. In some ways it was pausing for some professions, but our kids right, I mean I've got. I had kids, five three and one right now and they were increasing all the time over the pre school teacher coming up to us she's deeply apologetic. She says just I'm so sorry

Your daughter, aria, she's she's, just not she's, not going to be ready for pre school. I mean I'm having the most difficult time, trying to teach them how to pronounce the letter h through a mask right. You can't do it, and so those devastations are things we're gonna feel for our generation and we ve got up have some hope I'm up it's for that. Like you said, I love the idea. We welcome all people, as we say, to team reality without a lot of people. come and say: oh, you poor. What masks, probably weren't the best mandate to making universally or plexiglas. Yet everyone agrees that was stupid, or even these mandates where I lose my job. If I don't get a job, if, especially, if it's not stopping the spread of the disease, that's questionable, so they can come to seem reality. Welcome to make that decision, but some of these people- I I I hope they never have a shot at setting public policy again or influencing that that's sort of

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They are merely qualities. The founders of black rifle coffee wish to encourage and sincerely hope that you will. I was drinking their coffee for the record before they started. Paying me to say nice things about them it's true, you can google it. You can also choose your favorite roast rounds and delivery schedule anytime, you like members get free shipping and access to exclusive partner discounts at black rifle coffee. Dotcom, slash, rob that's black rifle coffee! That gun slash row lack black rifle, missed me, dot com, wrong, that when her part of the thing that bothered me,

most to aside from not having a clear glide path into some kind of return to normalcy was the degree to which all of the advice that was being dispensed was cookie cutter in nature. We didn't seem capable of articulating a strategy four different groups based on their susceptibility and I'm just personally sensitive to this, you know in my foundation and in that part of my world? The thing I write, against is the idea that the best path for vamosed people happens to be the most expensive thing. There is in terms of education, so I felt like we were treating every one sort of like we treated everyone in the wake of nine eleven of the level of scrutiny, t directed at my eighty four year old mother trying to get through.

T say, was no different than a degree of certainty right as like we it's. What. Why are we treating every body the same when it seems clear that the disease These is going to impact many. Many many people really really really differently. My kind of interpretation was canada, squeaky, we'll theory, which is when you know these health overlords, as is sometimes unkind, if you refer to them, made the decisions which they hear armageddon exactly and so team apocalypse right, yeah, yeah, and so that they're hearing from all these people, when does my child can be safe people that were seriously fearful right about I mean, like you, and I would having a very different conversation. We we talk about this in the book about the average age of death for covert was eighty years old right, which is about the average age that people die here in the united states as well from any other causes the average age of death during the nineteen.

team pandemic was twenty nine years old. The impact on society is much different for someone that dies who, your brother at nineteen or eighteen of protein than someone, your grandparent, whose lived a full life dying at ninety six. What are they sure you guys call that half years of life lost years of life. While am I right while, and so the challenge that we have is- and understand. Well, if I don't do a one size fits all, then I'm gonna hear from all these squeaky wheels. So I've got a sort of even those out it didn't feel you know they have this sort of notion, sometimes of fairness that overrides them and that's why the subtitle the book gone viral, how covert drove the world insane? It really did, and it was I two older daughters, stepdaughters were going to a classical christian school here in san diego, my wife had seen them through the entire growth of the school, and even you know this group that prides itself on the rhetoric and

logic and reason were like pillars in on flags through the school. My forty one came home today. She says you won't believe this, so the school intended came to me and she said: you're gonna have to sit perpendicular on your bench, straddle your bench and not for your classmates you're, not facing him all my colleague so cold goes one direction right, and that was that was the answer oddity and then they try to make accommodation. So twenty twenty, while schools were closed down when you finally got to the twenty twenty one. Twenty who scorsese and write the schools were opened, mostly, but he was closures. proxy right of anyone who had kids will remember this slightest exposure to a positive case whether the kid was sick or not, would send you home ten days, and I was it's frustrating for us, you know my daughter is thirteen. I don't think even the vax was approved for her then, but she was in a school play and we got a note she's going to have to quarantine for ten days. Well why she has no symptoms.

Well, but one of their classmates in the play they test deposit for covert, while our basic they're doing ok all right. Well, why this? My daughter, have to stay home and others are going to school? Your daughter's, not vaccinated, was the kid who got second tested positive, actually we're yeah. He wasn't. I still it just that sort of just really. They are that's where I go. Ok doubt that's unfair, but I and why they you my keyser interpretation as to why the one size fits all cookie cutter thing came into play was because I didn't want to treat people differently but in doing so they really just drug us all through the mud ryan. It seemed like so overwhelming ryan, so unfair, all to begin with. It's like it's, not just the unfairness of that, which, I think is what do they call it prima thaci. I I see that how much harm was done to people who were morbidly obese when we simply didn't say out loud look: what is it eighty seven percent of all fatigue,

that is an hospitalizations had that morbidity? I mean if were seriously overweight in serious trouble, but we didn't seem to articulate that and look. I want to be really careful just because I d when a monday morning, quarterback it what we know now what we know, then it's easy to. Second guess but as I remember it- and I dont want to forget this, but I remember it that data was out there. It seemed to me out there, but it seems to be being affirmatively ignored and that clashed that's hard to forgive yeah, that's hard to forgive the single best thing people could have been doing in hindsight, admittedly, is too. Be outside to be walking, fives eight miles a day to be eating better to be taken care of themselves. Tat is, we're living in opposite bilbil, yet the other coma

trinity, we saw MIKE, was that it was obesity, then the studies came out from indian fewer places showing that the people who really had an issue and bad outcome as with covered we're not going or beast, but a lot of people had really low levels of vitamin d ripe, and we know that basically goes succumbs to respiratory disease, easily so whose idea was it to stick inside out of the sun eating taken everyone nido putting on their covert nineteen pounds right, and I know I had so it devastate. I I looked at my my apple watch my. What are my tracker right and I said: well, we all still pretty well was due seven to ten, sometimes twelve, to fifteen thousand steps. Today, if I was working Whatever else there, they went down to like two to five thousand steps: day during the spring. I said: that's probably going to have an impact on my life, right, you're peddling, there's something they didn't consider right. I don't think well look again if you want to give people the benefit of

doubt- and I want to be mindful two of I mean gonna be so easy to forget some of these things. Justin again, that's what worries me most. Nowadays, in march, twenty twenty washing the fruit washing the door knobs operate, from this assumption that it was droplets for we under do the aerosol thing and then once we're stood the aerosol thing, not changing the protocols. literally standing in a jet way two days ago, getting awful flight and they d cows are still there. Please stay six feet apart The markets are still on the floor right, so part of me is like good god get those things off there. another part of me says. You know what keep him there because, as I'm goes on we're going to look at that and we're going to realize. I think just how superstitious and pro kindly wrong. We were there's really interesting site point that happens here. The pandemic is very local right.

like here in san diego, where I am it's pretty of fluent place here, it was ninety percent mass of the height of it If I went like fifteen miles inland, they didn't care. If you wore amass crying gods, tree in power there than the diner still gay The menus and everything else, and sometimes the county people come on them, but you go to What are we visited floored a few times and it was like a different world in someplace. Ism felt so odd right. It seems to be at least I experienced whether your school district, your county, if they were coming down hard on you, experience that but literally your neighbor three miles away in the next county might have a very different experience. That sort of divergence really shook people up in some ways and there are some people still like are wondering like what was your experience. I didn't experience anything like that as well. You weren't here in california, but they sort of locked as deadly padlocked, daughter swing set at her local park for a year for,

here there is like it would literally like they had a padlock audit and oil companies. Around the playground, the others we said it was just like. Why are we doing this right and is Firstly, when you consider that the risk for these kids was, so low to begin with- and we just put so solely burn in fact doing people that are mandated to be met, ass, our preschoolers in some cases, because the facts had never been approved for them in, but of course, they take the masks off when their napping next to each other for two hours, during the middle, the genuine again, they drove people crazy. I think that's part of the things like even the people that we assumed had your some say and the d in this thing it just everyone had their sort of run in and it's understandable. The kindest interpretation was that just it's understandable why people were very fearful because it sought a lot of newspapers. It became sort of the main tool that people would use my own county health director said you should just treat everybody like they have the disease. I say: that's that's

have some societal impact right. Well, my god of all the things in the book. The thing the jumped out at me in terms of a real hinge, were a real turning point in the way people thought about. This was the moment it was articular I that the asymptomatic person could and would spread and that the only sensible way to live life. I forget who said it, but somebody's out there on record was to go about your life, with the working assumption that every single person you encounter has covered and my remembering that right, you are in it you like, I said his colleague, butterflies and heard pain scenario butterfly flaps, had swing here and causes a hurricane on the other side, the world we we have. This one assumption was that asymptomatic transmission. We all these groups scrabble words that you and I can use right, and so

asymptomatic mean the guy is sick and he doesn't know any spreading it right. What turns out that account for less than one percent of all the infections, and so from that one assumption came plexiglas, mask mandate, social distancing, quarantine from the slightest exposure. It was crazy scene it just that one terrible assumption cascaded, something just awful and take. Waxy glass, for example. This is a pretty benign one that we saw happen. Writer, everything turned into like in the inner city right. Every retailer had this plexiglas in front of them, after you went to hope depot. I wonder what the converse It was there because they thought. Oh, my gosh. This is our colleague right. We have all the equipment, let's show how to do some real plexiglas. It's a uses either right. They they had those big metal. out these six foot plexiglas there still up their here in san diego at these home depots. I can't hear anything: it's like bulletproof glass. I can't hear them in, but it turns out. You know

one of the cdc I should in studies on it. They said This is actually stopping ventilation, which is actually one thing you can do to sort of help. Stop the spread disease and also it becomes another surface to clean, so they quietly very quietly. In march twenty twond wasn't over a year and a half ago said we should just drop that recommendation really tell anyone about until we caught it made it made a beef about it I see them everywhere. I see them at my bank. I see them at the grocery store. I see him at the drug store, there's plexiglas everywhere. Somebody's gotta get the word out. If that's the case that this is worse than not having it. My wife ass her doktor one I mean she says, look why we still warn these mask and they said well, your people are nervous about it and she's like well. I'm is about you wearing a mass, graham, you heard wearing a and so were catering to the full. Years of society, which I would think can be a very good things sustainable. Certainly, you know that one

Neighbor, who still double massed in his car alone? Right I caught a wrote the book for that audience to which is to say I want this to be conversational accessible. I don't want to get too down into the the weeds of the data. I want the data there, but I also want a lot of stories, so I kind of mixed it a lot of conversations that I had so that people would kind of say, oh yeah, I do relate to that and hopefully slowly we can pull them out of that you take college kids, for example. May there the one last bastion that's maxed to the vaccine max to the masked and anything else there, and I think the reason my keyser interpretation MIKE is that for these kids, the real risk of getting cancelled by some errands social media post of you wearing a mask in a place where you should have been right is very real. and so the is the generation of my parents. The sixties, all my years to get to the man like we better obey the man

Now I'm going to get pummeled by my friends online. If I don't toe the line, when did that happen? It's so backwards. It used to be the college. Kids would be. The tip of the spear other way say what you want to say live your best blah blah blah. It was amazing the way that happened. It was also amazing. The speed with which they would forgive hypocrisy in their leaders that call who used to be among the most sceptical and they seem to have become the most forgiving. I couldn't believe it. I mean I'd live up here, northern california, Yeah I'd try to stay in my lane for the most part during all of this, but when Gavin newsome was out there the french laundry I my had exploded. I actually thought: that's it forget it, there's! No! What people will forgive well intended elected officials who get it wrong, but how do you forgive that level of hypocrisy

It's tough thumb. I grew up in the bay area too. In these bay and my parents are still there, my dad has been prominent guy business there in san francisco for for decades and ever. Those him in the city, and you he's very quietly to cartel me when I ask some questions about houses. if you're the real estate business there and everything else there, and I can tell it's a different city and give just a couple hints you know towards that is to things- have really dramatically changed and that's a that's an unfortunate thing that really became a catalyst for massive changes and in how things went and again like this is like nothing new in the book. We talk about what happened one hundred years ago and what happened four hundred years ago. I tell the story that was from journal entries during the the seventeenth century in milan, ITALY, when they faced in all really big pandemic. They'll play great that took one of the three lives. That was a biggie so suspicious of everyone right one point: they see it elderly gentleman, the top of the front of the pew when they thought that he was purpose

spreading the disease bore, because I was a rumour that was going around. They took him outside and puzzled him in the journey entry to simply ends and says I do not think he could have survived many moments. Longer and you saw all the altercations that we went through whether it was someone trying to get into their gym or their kids, trying to go to school or not putting on their mask kind of on a plane those things rule have the societal impacts that it's gonna. Take us a little bit to get through that huge. When do you think the mask became a talisman? When did it begins to signify something that had nothing at all to do with public health, but we do have all the four year emails, that is the emails we get from filing these lawsuits against mugabe to see who made these decisions in the first place and early aren't doctor She was telling him his emails. He says now and I dont where these mass these things together drugstore than I can do anything right, but it quickly

and to that being a universal mandate. One of the reasons was, I'm sure. A gun, earful from a lot of governors in county officials were like give us some tools right, and so this became kind of a political. tool right of, if cases we're going up in your area, its ease, the blame mass. While you were run your mask hard enough right. If cases we're going down, it was thank you very much for wearing your mask, repaid come to find out? Two years later, the mass we were wearing everyone agrees now probably did very little to stem the size of the pandemic and everyone went to these and ninety five's in a very, very late in the pandemic, there was mind boggling. It became a an outward sign of an inward faith. Maybe that's the best way to put it, and people really did want to believe that you know they could.

make a difference. There was a poll done. It was just a year ago. I think it has said it asked americans what gives your life meaning right, and it was something like one in twenty americans said: oh covert covert gives my life meaning. If, yes, I think people and they found that it was a, It- was a virtue signal that was very empting and very easy to initiate in their lives, and there were warned it anyways. doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo doo down somewhere between the great resignation and the great regret are a few million people trying to find a new way to make a buck. Many of these people are empting to turn their side hustles into full time. Jobs and the ones who are succeeding all seem to have one thing in common: that's the sound of a sail on shop, a fine, it's true shopper. Why is the commerce platform that is literally enabling millions of businesses large and small?

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slash road to start selling online today that shall provide that gum, slash row shot. If I got Jane chuck you'll remember this, I think was the last time I saw the thing you're talk about, but chuck came up here for a visit, maybe six months into the lock downs, maybe not even that long I live kind of in the woods. You know we were just walking down a small street and not a small street. Maybe forty feet away from us was an old guy and he looked over and he just shook his head and then he shook his fist and what did he say, chuck put your mass gone shouldn't you be. The mask- and you know what now I look back at that guy and I feel like well. He was bamboozled, but when it happened, I was really torn because, on the one hand

I hate to be held at in public, it's annoying and kind of embarrassing, even when there's nobody else around, but you're old, buddy, buddy, also saw on his face and heard in his voice, unmitigated, abject terror. He was scared and he saw me and chalk as the proximate cause of his demise, and he just couldn't believe couldn't believe how irresponsible we could be, and that worried me not be, as he was wrong, but because he was not along the. How is it is a challenging time altogether and you think about sort of the attic Shall you are your brother's keeper? And now you are my mandate right it? What a crazy seeing that it took one sort of a set of influencers for decades

to convince us that while we exhale was going to kill the planet, it took about four weeks to convince us that while we exhale was gonna, kill everyone else and grandma right instantly. He had so those are really challenging things when basically, your actions affect the entire, your course of a hurricane happening in someone else's house, and when you do that now you know it gives your neighbor complete plausibility to common pummel you. as you know, you're not wearing mascot you'd see those incidents again and again in I'm doing this, for your health. Why won't you where the mask and take this thing? And so ok, thank you. very botswana, eight, what a crazy see, I think, like you said it

have a lot of people insane, because when you sort of throw a wrench into the works of society, the outcomes are just unpredictable. I think we see that now now the question is- and this is the tough one right which is- I think the numbers are kind of like twenty per cent in my group, which we call team reality are really sticking our necks out right and taking it on the chin as we could. There is another twenty per cent of people that were, totally on team apocalypse, as we call them, but there was that sixty percent majority of people between her. Like look, I I really don't want again to the fight, but now That same group is like it's really hard to think that all of these interventions were basically for nothing right

it could have been for nothing and then I made all those sacrifices. My kids made all those sacrifices and it didn't move the needle an inch right. That's really difficult for people to stomach, but in some cases they've already come to it. Like I think most people agree. Closing schools was a terrible decision and has far reaching ramifications, and now it's just sort of like we gotta go through each one of these. Do they do most people think that yeah, I'm not sure of that your neighbor MIKE. I believe if you asked that guy what he thinks he'll say. Well, we were doing the best we could we didn't know what to do. We didn't know any better You say to somebody like that that was then at some point. You can argue that, because now we're say: ok, fine, but we no now. What can we say wrigley now that we know for certain that we did not know then, and I'm just asking just enough is

Are we overstating it at all? Or can we definitively say? I mean what they through like the structure of your book, because its chapter by chapter, it's a methodical, debunking. Here's what we were told wrong here's alibis here's what we're told wrong and it goes on for doesn't chapters so is it gotta It even use this expression cause you're, just gonna, love it and hated outside their. I'm is this and settled you know. That was the tough thing. If you picture it and most people can who are a business, for example, they can think of a funnel right. Like I have so many people, they come Website or visit my shop and then that turns the people that are interested in my products or services in them. Contact them some more and now they become customers right. It's the same sort of thing that the cdc. Does a certain amount of people get sick and maybe they'll know it. A certain amount of people get sick and visit the doktor

some of them are hospitalized and some of them die right, and so, when they for example, that in full has a fatality rate of zero point, one for right That means that, basically up here, I've got forty. Four million people got sick and I ve got about fifty thousand that died right. So so it's a very, very small thing and then What do you do it by age? All this, and now you have more details right. So when we walk through that whole scenario right, how did you find that someone getting sick these pcr tax autonomy about those. Well, there really sensitive right and they could pick up a virus at five days or seventy five. Is the fact that some counties they were denoting deaths from covered for anyone that, two positive within the last ninety days. We she got to look at some of these death certificates. Are they were from a few groups, it actually asked for them and we looked at them

eighty six year old, female fall from height, diabetes, broken fibre tests, a pause of recovered three months ago cover death rate and that's really challenging thing. Stomach. Now my kind interpretation, you might say, ok well who's the fraud at the hospital who put, on their right now think about these hospitals right going down through the fund where you got sick and now you're going to the hospital, and we put these stringency on these hospital. We set of you know what you're gonna have to do away with all incidental All the elected surgeries write anything like plastic surgery. What gives you know the hospitals? Now? That's a big part of the revenue right. So if you A hospital ministries are worth your salt right. Then I could get how many they keep this company afloat well, and they give me nine thousand dollars for a positive case through, a thousand dollars for a hospitalization if I'm in our rural county,

and I have some of the icy you. I can get ninety two hundred twenty thousand dollars and reimbursement from the government for having a covert case, seeing that, through right I'm not saying they push those through, but they wanted the widest latitude, so version october. The hospital lobby has got the administration to allow them to count this october, twenty two many to count anyone that was in an observation bed for covered as a covert hospitalization. So now what happens well, I get up to the dashboards and ac is huge spike in october twenty twenty like what happened there? Well, they changed the world in hospitals, asians and then that frightens more people, and so it's terrible cat gave feeding back into the funnel. So when you go through all of these steps like okay? Well, you think about the one big issue, and this is something I think we can look at down the role, which is, if you get

sick with something your doktor, diagnose you without right, he'll. Send you back. Take two aspirin call me in the morning right: they couldn't do that right. Member. The first point in the last point to care was going to be the hospitals and we did want them to overrun, but will ok avatars to pause for cattle why do doc will go home and if he is close to dying, go to the hospital which I take anything in between? I can't really recommend anything. You know in india when you tested pause for cover. They gave you what we would call like a blister kit right and it had like all these throw beds and they are, and everything else there are now will go into the right. Nobody that, basically it help them is a hey like take some of these and see. If that helps you, they did pretty well right, but somehow we couldn't. There was no protocol like no, no major institution medical us

we should have stepped up and say: we've got you know the vaccines are in the works right, we're going to do what we can with those, but right now we've got the only protocol that you can use to help stave off severe covert. If you happen to get it right, no one tackled that. Why didn't they? And I think it's because we were on this course where? Well, next step of the funnel that we have planned and everything is set. There is the hospitals right and everything is focused towards there. I got a text from a friend. I think I mentioned the book in orange county and said both my parents are died. Now I said what happened was a covert no one from an undiagnosed blood disease, one from an undiagnosed cancer within four months of each other. They were too scared to seek treatment. They were too scared to seek true, but that one stat mike because it was oncologist I'll, never forget call from a friend who was oncologist cancer doctor, and he said: okay, either covert is cure cancer or something else is happening altogether right because we're seeing half as many patients as we did the year before, yeah.

That's rough, so the funnel broke somewhere along the lines and that's what we do in the book and we take each one of those steps say here all the assumptions they may you can this rube goldberg machine of terrible decisions just ended up with terrible outcomes and wrong outcomes and terror

numbers too, and we're still seeing that today. I don't want to ask this the wrong way, but clearly all of our institutions seem to have led us down the faith. Whatever amount of trust they deserve from us was abused. The politicians, the gather hypocrisy and for me anyway, was a deal breaker the science. I don't know how to feel when an threefold. She says he is the science it made me bristle and I know he spoke for a lot of people that didn't upset a lot of people but and then, of course, there's the media. They all three seemed to have fed on each other to keep the fear and the loathing at a fever pitch. But who do you think was most called? above as an institution, not an individual but as an institution who, let us down, I would say no technically it's the cdc and the age they made a lot of these

incisions. They decided to implement these lockdowns. I mean they were talking in from the emails we have it. You know welding people inside of apartments, like the word in china right and just going completely anathema to. What we have here is our rights in the united states, but I'll tell you, one institution to lead us down was just kind of our education, and just in general I mean I can't believe we, for example, let them close our churches and let them sort of dictate how many people could assemble one time. I know why we did it. I can think through that, but the fact that are sort of the american family, the american sort of spirit, failed to really stand up for those those pillars. I think you know our founding fathers would be embarrassed. They would want us to say: hey

you can't go wrong. If you stick by those things right, I can understand the feeling. I remember I read my first paper. It was a the corona virus. Dashboards will kill us all long before the virus ever will just talking about how the numbers were scaring everyone, but I woke up the next morning, just forty m texting a friend saying I'm sick over this. What if this really is as bad as this is, and I'm downplaying it right and that morning, Johnny Anita, is the most cited living scientist out of Stanford. He noted we are probably in a once in a lifetime data fiasco and we could shatter the entire world on this thing and then that's kind of what we did. There are government institutions and there's kind of the the institution of the spirit of america kind of fell by the wayside. We need to teach and sort of encourage our people to stand up for this thing. That makes us who we are. It's really difficult sidebar. I shared that article by

it is the day after it came out and for the first time on my facebook page, I saw a warning at the bottom of the post: classifying it as some level of either misinformation. I forget the exact language, but it was the first time I had seen that entity save now, don't share that and a really threw him under the bus. Where is he standing today and where, if you could talk a little bit about those three- behind the great barrington declaration Who they were and, as I recall, all their credentials, you could want us all of the acronyms, and you know abbreviations. You could want after an expert name. What happened to them and where are they today? Will john? Is a professor of medicine

air at Stanford. My most unkind interpretation of his enemies is that they were really really miffed about what he did. Ten years previously, John made an for himself and the reason why he's the most cited living scientist in papers is that he went and tried to reproduce both medical and sociological experiments. You know the ones we talk about, like the marshmallow when the kids and everything else really try to reproduce a lot of these things and found out and was able to statistically demonstrate that about sixty percent or or of all these sociological studies that people have been citing over the years could not be reproduces bullshit, and so he bade, really did away with sixty percent of their sociological literature. I think a lot of people are miffed, but John was there and John is like

if the nice guy he's there at Stanford? Still, my good friend J, botched tarja, one of the most gentle souls, but so brilliant. He got together with martin cold or from harvard and SEN gupta from oxford, and they formed the great barrington declaration was named after the town place they were at when they signed this declaration, and it was a very different approach. Like you said, it was a targeted protection, that is to say the people most at risk by a factor of one thousand or ten thousand, comparing like a kid to an eighty year old, the are elderly right, and so let's protect them, as we could let our walls kind of go about their business.

it didn't. They would note that the impact on treating this all the same and treating kids like a vector of disease was so disastrous in those desperate, because I mentioned this was in the summer of two thousand and twenty, which we examined them, one of the ones that kept coming up. You only have to get desperate if it gets, as here's part one he died of diabetes or he died of respiratory disease, and that is part two things that contributed to it right and invariably the contributing part. We would see this phrase- that's very common industry gets it was failure to thrive right. We saw these massive waves of deaths come into our alzheimer's. Are nursing homes right and part of the reason why they passed ways he relied on that sort of human touch and their interaction, and now they were barred from that in the appendix to the book. I share some really really difficult store. These are people who saw their last. The last sight of their loved ones were faced time right because they weren't allowed into

the hospital and what a devastating consequences that is right, that that end of life moment talk about a woman who is mentally challenged and her sister had been taking care of her whole life, but because she tested positive, she's dying alone in his hospital just plugged up. She had no idea what was going on We can't say our whole shook ass honestly. Does yesterday my seat as I can't. Let us happen. That's why I wanted to talk to you, because I m me when you really sit down with people of camera. If your any way in the middle of However, I am- and you have these conversations, these stories that people are hanging onto from coal They seem so small. Sometimes when you compare it next to life and death, but worse? What were learning is, let's say crusader. I had part out loud there's something

Is that are more important than not dying right. There are some things that are just simply more important to life. Some of it has to do with red up. Some of it has to do with freedom You said it before: I'm not a regular church going guy, but when I saw that outside church services had been made illegal by protests. The streets were not. tolerated but encouraged. But then clearly, that's not science, that's not public. Certain protests, certain proved not all protests right. So any reason: The person on either side of the isle ought to be able to look at those kinds of decisions, and in me at least see something really mission. obvious at work when those same decisions force into so heartbreaking, a mentally ill woman who doesn't have the capacity

at any given time to understand what's happening in the world is shot off from her caregiver and forced to die alone? well. It takes a special kind of person to shrug and go look sorry, but the stakes are awfully high here right. How much frickin higher? Can the stakes get than that? Right to your point, you said: do people do the majority of people believe that we have? That was wrong. I think, probably yes, when there told that I think a lot of people come round. I mean I've never seen political divides bridge so quickly as when your children are jointly being kicked out of

wool or threatened with whatever mandate they have that bridge political odd. I have people and friends who are extremely close to me now and we were completely on different sides of the political spectrum, but we all agreed on where this thing should go right. We can be great parents and teach our kids this next generation of we're going to stand up for you and I'm going to I'm going to make recompense. I remember my daughter in her preschool our preschool, for our kids was doing everything they could. To keep masks off a right. We were able to get some type of letter in there to say our kids don't have to wear, mask well, the california he did a license. You are, the preschool licensing would come down for surprise visits, and I remember the office told me, and they were laughing, saw, that they came back to my daughter, which is one of the few people that was on mass there on the playground outside ray and the licensing peoples had little girl come here. Why aren't you wearing a mask and she said? Well, my daddy signed a piece of paper, so I dont have to also we don't believe in them.

by I like such a proud moment. I was like. Oh that's great, I don't think the administrators or the is like that at all, but you know those sort of things where we need to have our kids or understand kids. Here's where you draw the line. I was seventeen, your boyfriend. Seven girls and one boy right here. My three older kids are from my previous marriage by on close to them and they live just north of me. But you know here, I missed the last couple of years of school. He missed the last couple of years of that interaction in his church group and it's you know, set him on a different course altogether and those are really devastating things, but finding their sea legs and saying yeah. You know what I'm going to make something of this and try to pivot from us as adults. That's easy to do. We can look at this and say alright. That was a great set of learnings. Let's use that to pivot into something better right for law. These young kids that'll be impressed upon them. I remember looking over a friend's shoulder and his daughter was there. She had pulled out a target catalog.

And she had taken a marker and she was covering over the face of every one in the magazine. She wanted to make sure they had a mask on right. Was culture sort of? Does that to a kid they see, every one is a vector of disease: that's deficit, how did they get out of that? How do you turn that around? What's that going to do to every single trust issue, that's gonna confront her for the rest of her life. How does that not wind up in forming virtually everything you? do we just don't know yet, but I mean that's part of the reason. I suspect you wrote the book, yeah really I want this to be both our amber all right. So you just kind of this is something I won't forget, but I also wanted to be a defense or put some pretty poignant letters that you can take and take right out there and give it to your school board. They started doing this again right because the the the same tactics, whether it's for the next wave of covert the next pandemic or whatever other boogeyman they envision needs, puts you under their thumb, they're going to use.

Again right, I guarantee you. There are people, especially in the press. I noticed who we gladly have well. Did you inside you're a part of their and your house if they felt it was to get they'd, probably burn their hands off before they learned how to do a welding torch, but they would try they try to belgium, they would volunteer for that. It wouldn't end well, I guess, What was the moment for you when you really believed that we had,

I turned a corner and entered into something that was decidedly not of public health, but of something else, and that we were all just going off the cliff. I know what mine was, but was there a time when you just said okay, this is getting real and terrible yeah. You know I spent part of my career in politics doing the same sort of thing I do for businesses trying to build dashboards and funnels for nonprofit groups or political campaigns. I worked on a presidential campaign and I was very unsure what president trump had said. I predicted just looking at demographics that he was going to win, regardless of where I ended up on the political spectrum. I said I think he's going to win. I know where these winds are. Turning when march twenty- ninth, twenty twenty, it was the rose garden presser and he was there mike pence. Was there DR burks? Was there DR fouch was there? He said

that fateful day we're going to extend the two week lockdown to forty days, and it pains me to have to say it, but I tweeted out, I said president trump just lost the election and I knew it not from some type of anger, but I knew it just demographically if only three or four percent of an elder population felt too scared to go to the polls or otherwise or upset him for this, as he lose it straight out now, people say there are shenanigans sure we can look at that during the two thousand and twenty election, but in the end it was the demographic issue and I think in my mind I thought I'm willing to test this for two weeks for another. Forty days, I don't think people are seeing the endgame here. I think this is it and what happened? Is it opened up Pandora's box, fifty governors, thirty two hundred counties, thirteen thousand schools- Tricks cost country, everyone form their own policy, and once you open up that you no ghost of of things there, it gets greater, it's funny it a lot of epidemic. this approach. A kind of picture themselves says I'm like dustin Hoffman from that movie

I'll break with romania. Rousseau back in the nineties raise teasing this sort of Secondly, the money right he's holding up a says. If you see this monkey call this number, really do see themselves as that, but in truth, there more like walter, packing, ghostbusters right epa inspector who comes down shuts down the power grid and the ghouls all flying around the city, that's kind of what transpired on that day. That was the moment for me as a change in the movies somebody's talking back, and he says. The one that is easier said than done and then adjudged murray. Is this true and bill Murray says it's true. This man has no dick. I just it has to that's the best exchange goes well. I do I use this analogy in the book, and I I included the last part by editor, and I mean that's the same great film that gave us dogs and cats living together living too There is miller, for we are. I mean this: is it dogs and cats masking

together, re masking together or not masking shouldn't. You have a mask righteous indignation, certainty god, just in there was so much certainty. I mean it. How well he has as its just to be wrong at a time of great uncertainty is one thing to sound so certain, either your correctness or your incorrectness, it seemed like humility was a giant casualty and all of and around the same time, you were predicting trumps loss with that tweet Andrew cuomo said the thing, Now he was being lionize at the time with his daily press conferences and what not and I why one, and he said something- and I can still hear this under my sphincter slamming shot, I was so appalled, but I'm gonna get pretty close to but it was something along the lines of no measure, no matter how draconian can be deemed excessive,

if it saves, but a single life and the press applauded were in the room and they applauded and that man- ok, that's it. thing. What we're saying right now is no man or what it costs we to save every life and that's what I thought well that will last for a while, but not forever, because we'll get bored with that we'll get bored of being terrified. In that moment, we weren't, a lot of people bought that really really, rather yourself in double pack and don't get in the car. Ray outlaw left hand turns lower the speed limits. Five miles an hour and in case every vehicle in rubber and wire everyone in the car to wear a helmet if you're sick, is about saving every life? You can you do it. You can start

by saving the eight thousand who die in new york every year right so there is this analogy. I saw one time on this at a amusement park had just opened up back in japan. This was right in the middle pandemic and they were going to allow guests back in right and the Secondly, we wanted to demonstrate how safe it was right, but he had to wear a mask on the rise. Weiler coasts ride the end of this. Of these executive sitting at her from the ride wearing masks. Only there were instructions given not to scream and I'm sure it sounds better in japanese, but the instructions were scream inside your heart, a scream. In spite of your part, and I tell you there were times- I wonder, scream inside my heart to and out loud mean you just saw them they're, going in through the roller coaster up and down, not saying a word right there, s just that dad says just drove the world. It say that those are those are bare sing moments, and hopefully we never after

relive those again, but I'm sure they want to cannot put that away. I've tried to capture those, so we can understand the ridicule earlier. Yes, what it's that fine line between, I told you so and bashing them over the head. But sir recently keeping at top of mind, because it's going to happen again, there's go to be another thing. Maybe it's the same thing. Maybe it's a new variant, whatever it's gonna be there will we and other elected official who says no. As your domain have, chromium can be deemed excessive if it saves but a single life, and there will be people who nod and want to hear and there will be a chorus of people who channel Any sceptic and criticise any sceptic as denier and we're going to go through all of this again and I hope that what you have written will serve as some kind of record some kind of evidence.

you know, I'm trying to figure out what to call this episode, and I can't you ve, given me to amazing titles: one is failure to thrive. other is scream inside your heart, but, given all we discuss, do you have a preference I think, kids scream inside their heart, like that one both of the beatles' failure to thrive, is, I think, the title. My next book therapy is just those are the devastations, where you realize, while we really I mean that was one of our greatest generations. My grandma died. She was ninety six, not a covert, but she lived a very full life and we are all there. The funeral was fantastic. I can't imagine not being able to celebrate those lives and, in general, that was, what they took from us, was our abilities celebrate life altogether right. You know, we all felt it you're in a very stringent state, in mass mandates. For everywhere, when you took off the mask, you felt naked, it felt awkward, an odd and I hated that feeling that they had curbed be into this sort of.

This mouse eating the cheese, this maize And- and I need to find that again right now for the mass back on my face, maize in which you can get used to and it was really devastating. There's gonna be a host of Souci logic. I just want to give up the other day said because of all the zoom calls re with it a bit known are shown in some studies that more attractive women received better grades than their counterparts have maybe weren't as attractive in college The zoom is the great equalizer appear things that went back to normal right little interesting things. We humans like energy is really really difficult to curb. I share them story. It's a little dishearten, but also kind of epitomizes. This entire moment it's apocryphal its handed down through jewish literature. It tells the tale of the people that didn't make it onto noah's ark, which was everyone else. separate all right. The story goes that this was a very wicked people, as the history tells it a very vile, wicked p,

when the waters rose to their knees, they held their kids to their ways when the waters rose to their chests apron, kids on their shoulders but when the waters rose to the neck, they put their kids under their feet, so they could live themselves and think about my own experience of my kids. That's that truly epitomizes what we candidate to these kids I'm in a deal with the punch. You just gave me to the gatt, but he come after my kids and I want to write a book and start a movement to. you down altogether and you're gonna, see to the biggest companies who ever lived. That's going to be very exciting for you, just any in the coming weeks and months, ass, the apple shot across. The bows sounds your wife done and all those Dave had a front row. Seed dave watch their mild mannered data driven dad turn in two and apostate yells outwork enough for you,

she's been with me right along the road she tweets even harder than I do on these things and and really brings down the boom. You know she was fearless going into stores, sometimes now wearing a mask and sheep challenges that health care. We had a kid in the middle, this pandemic right and we two miscarriages two on either end of that child. That was rough to the first one. really rough, because I couldn't go in with her. So I was at home and I get the text message. Baby died know, a couple of weeks along, so it wasn't as devastating, but it was like I'm not there with her my heart just sunk, I'm like what is going on, and so this next time you know except for any ultrasound. I go to I'm going to be with her. I don't care, I will bust through those doors right, and she makes sure that I can bust through those doors she just she's fearless in that way. So it's been a real to have some on your side. I can't

Imagine what sort of frustration this must have been for families who were divided. I know there are family members. I have who wouldn't speak me for a year and their friends. I've lost over the years. Entire email lists that have kicked me off at every also there and I try to be kind and everything else there and try to convey my side, but damn We use the bludgeon of you're trying to kill grandma and I won't have it and they block you and sent you often. I hope we can come to some recompense in some type of reassessment of that. What I would say my biggest lesson is: stick your neck out, for something you know is right: they will be painful. First by the rewards will come and people will come to you. I have. I people come to be a conferences that I speak out. We had our own conference here in san diego weeks ago. You know they said I am you guys were the only ones that I could find comfort in to know that I wasn't going crazy. There are other people that I think like I do and I think eventually people will come round to that feeling. It's gonna take a little bit but

last question: has there been any one in your personal life who basically shunned ostracised unfriended whose come back in the wake of so much new information, much of which is in your book and said? Hey, I, ah, you know I'll take a mulligan at one. You know got that one wrong as well, instead of just recently I'll recount, where I had a good friend who's in the biotech industry, big biotech area down here in san diego he was very big on these vaccines cause. I can't wait to get these. I'm gonna give this to my kids and to everyone going. I'm not going to touch the third rail here, but it's been pretty well, attested that once you get a third peruse through you actually become more, like susceptible to this he's, that was just an embassy news by it's the other day we were together and he had been shunning me because of some of the things and then we haven't be at a party together the other day and a pilot friend of ours came forward and he said: hey up robin is his name.

It says, hey I'll, just say, rob he's a rubber. Should I get this third booster and he stopped and then he looked at me. He looked at the pile and he said no don't get. The booster is just going to more susceptible. We have this little laugh together because he was so hard facts of this was the way out. This was gonna, be it right and you know they promised us a hundred percent protection against all these things and when even just that it'll promise that was so outlandish when that didn't come through people are like wow. They just took a knock on the chin. There too, so we lost a lot of friends, but I think you're right. I have a couple more coming back and saying you know what I can meet you the middle ground here, and I've had a couple. People come back and say I wish I come out sooner. I have a lot of people saying I wish I wish I had stuck my neck out like you did. I was followed the example of the people, so we are still in a very fraught,

time. My sense of it is that there are many thousands of doctors still in this country. Who would say you take that? Third boaster trust me. It's good that advice is still out there and there's some people very close to me who have gotten that advice. And acted upon it. So I guess I'm still left in this place where somebody is wrong, and whoever it is sounds pretty certain and there's not much too. in the face of that ambiguity, except to scream and screaming you're allowed to tell you can do so. Anyone else make sure you screaming your heart and not allowed. You know what I'll give you fifty fifty yards, that within six months at least one band is going to form and they're going to be called scream inside your heart

I don't know if they are going to be any good, but they're going to be out there and they're going to be loud, and I think we can all take a little bit of pride in that team reality is open for them, team reality that right, we will see him apocalypse or arms which one was it apocalypse bottle team the demon partnerships with the other guy's gonna, put yourself against, says: he's sorry man, so your book is gone viral, that's what it's called a gun I go to don viral book. Dotcom gone viral book. Dotcom will take you right there to amazon to buy it, but you can get the audible book, which is great and just appreciate. We've had some great success with it. I think you know the next steps are kind of looking and saying: okay. Well, let's have some real frank, open, transparent hearings on this things, we'll see how that happens next year will consider this a rehearsal. For that very thing. I look or to sing you on the big screens small screen and keep shaken things up just, and this was fun. Thank you for coming by. Thank you MIKE Mike. I thanks guys

This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile sorry, it went on so body if it makes you smile your satisfaction in the way that people do Lee today. I hiv Debbie be urge, but

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