Here we go two weeks in the new year and chuck is firmly way down the road on his ongoing quest to get me cancelled. I suppose I would say that? That's not what I'm going for here. I just this is a really into thing topic and a really interesting guy and a really interesting movie. It is a very controversial topic, my guest as Matt Walsh, he's a conservative writer and blogger he's also a film maker and I've never met him before, but I've known of, for a while. You know on social I've seen his stuff he's seen my stuff and I never really What we would sit down to have the conversation were about to have, but he made a movie called. What is a woman and child

has been recommending that I watch this movie for months. While I watched it and damn it, it's really good will This is why this podcast is called matt, walsh, meda movie what I have to give you credit. Do he does couple of things in this film. That way more, experienced document arians, don't do he's, got a point of view and its controversial but he manages to stay weirdly in the middle The film, as I said, is called what is a woman. It's a question matt poses to clinic. psychologists and teachers and parents profess professors and men on the street and friends the answers that you will hear to this question, including from a supreme court justice by the way who you might remember, from the headlines not so long ago? Struggled to answer them exact same question. This is

an amazing time that we're living in and again this conversation while it sort of revolves around the business of transitioning from male to female, or vice versa is really more about the changing language and reality and truth- and all of this is enough- yeah yeah right, it is truth. Isn't it that's the thing? Is there a truth rather than your truth or might is there a truth, yeah and when you sprinkle, on top of that, this relatively new mantra that we ve all been hearing incessantly for years now follow the science. Well where in the world has the science taken us with regard to by all? I don't know, I don't know either man I dont know tough. say I don't know, but here's the thing to do, and this is why your bad producer, if you say you don't know where the site it has taken, is that's gonna upset people and if you say you do know where the science has taken us, that's going to upset,

there are so many landmines in this conversation, but want to have it anyway, so I did Now I want to share with you, so I'm gonna but as you listen just try and understand that, where me, and my soon to be fired producer coming from is the mat walsh is made. A really good film in this

same way that Michael more made a really good movie called roger in me and then a really great movie called bowling for columbine. So I think what I mean to say chuck is that I don't really care if you liked any of Michael moors films, and I dont really care if you like. Matt washes film, but you have to admit when you watch them, whether you agree or not, they're pretty well done, yeah, yeah, yeah! That's the point is that Michael more made some good movies, Matt Walsh made a great movie. This movie is good. You may not agree with the premise and it is very controversial, but from a film perspective it's a very well made movie. I would argue,

what about bowling for columbine there were parts of that that I thought were more propaganda. Wish Michael Moore, could learn a lesson I think from Matt Walsh. I was just trying to be equitable. I was choking. I appreciate that enlisted. Let me tell you there are way more reasons to fire me as a producer. Besides the fact that I just don't have an answer to that one question, so you make an excellent point. Matt walsh makes some good points as well, but as you listen bear in mind, that thing is going on in this country with regard to children, this isn't about bruce jenner, becoming caitlin jenner. It's really not that this is about our institutions and their relations. With our kids and the decisions that are being made and the consequences that are unravelling an evolving as a result, no lectures here, no sermons, no scolding and no polemic, just a really good movie.

I was happy to talk about here in an episode called met. Walsh made a great movie right after this do do do do do do do do do do do. Resolutions are tough to keep because most of them require us to do something difficult over, and over day after day, eat less and less exercise more be nicer to everybody. You come in contact with blah blah blah. Well, if you have resolved to save more money this year, star by consolidating your credit card debt with a credit card consolidation loan from light stream. You only have to do at once. save all year, plus its easy and theirs. Really no better way to pay off your credit cards and lock in a low, fixed interest rate rate started. Seven point, nine, nine percent, a pr with auto pay and excellent credit. The rate will never go up over the life of the loan ergo, it's fixed. You can get a loan from five grand to one The grand- and there are absolutely no fees you can you,

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say nice things, but I've just learned that Matt, wherever you are, it looks beautiful, but you can't see me is that correct I can see or but you can always described this letter to me and I can enjoy the mental images anyway. Thank you for that opportune. I am actually pretty good at this. What I'm wearing as a rag and bone sweater, is a raw high collar and a somewhat plunging neckline. I dont think its crossed into the bounds of tasteless news, but it is open a little further. The normal on shoulders, you would see that same rawhide Centralisation going down like apple connecting to another, a bit of rawhide that holds the sleeve to the basic structure, like it, was cobbled together on a loom by a blind mistress, but I thought you would appreciate it adds quite a bit that's the most description, I've ever heard of a sweater. So that's that's impressive! Well,

knowing that you can't see me and falling back as I do from time to time on through, miss spent years on the queue vc cable shopping channel, Let me just say it all fell right into place for me that it certainly did So when did we get on each other's radar? Do you remember the first time I actually think I do because I was writing years ago. I was writing a blog which creatively called the mat, walsh bog and and written something about? Why, don't necessarily need to send your kids to college and I think you posted on facebook. I've been a fan for a long time, so I was thrilled by that and I think that was the first time that our paths sort of crossed digitally at least well. I thought you we're a terrific writer and based on that thing you posted you know. Not only did I agree with it, but I took a deep dive into your. Log and I thought okay, this guy

actually string some sentences together and he is a great communicator and he has. Deeply held positions, and then I went back to my facebook page to see if anybody else knew who you were and lo and behold, matt, even at that tender age. Even at that nascent point in your career you and managed to piss some people off and vague, to my page to make sure I understood that that's been the case for as long as I've been doing this. Whenever I did a shoutout, from a prominent person unhappy about it. But then my next thought is how do they know they ve gotten themselves into? I always abrasion. Appreciating the time too, well. Obviously, I want to take a deep dive into your movie. I watched it last night from start to finish. I started it a couple of times over the last couple months and for reasons that had nothing to do with its excellence and driving narrative. I had to put it down and tend to something else, but I find

at ninety minutes. Last night I watches from start to finish I tell you honestly this'll sound grand, but I I set it to chalk earlier today. I think it might be, the best dogs I've ever seen. But aside from that, I think it might be one of the most important documentaries of the twenty first century and before I go, too much more. Let me tell you it's not simple, because you are taking on a topic that really needs to be talked about. Specific, the the the gender movement and the unintended consequences. I think that accompany it, but to me mad, The movie is about truth, or maybe reality or maybe some combination of the two and people listen to this podcast know that one the things the torments me more than anything else. Is the changing language right. Our faces

and words don't mean what I thought used to mean, and so when I all the title of your doc. What is a woman? I laughed because I I knew you were going to go in that basic direction, but I didn't know how deep you we're gonna go and matt Walsh. You went deep yeah, we did, and we sort of didn't know exactly how did the rabbit all we go either till we started film industry, and now he knew we first. The concept of the documentary renewal was It was something a little bit different. I wasn't sure of any real presidents, machine, the sort of on the right. I don't like to label the documentary, a goro, goro railway. Documentary because it is, it does just that objective truth. You need to be on the right or the left or anything to oppression, that, but I am a conservative, so we ve got. It's some kind of news. We know exactly where this would go and who we would be able to get to talk to us and for how long they would talk to us by

we quickly discovered. The other thing I didn't know either is myself is just how pervasive and widespread is the kind of fundamental confusion about basic biological reality. I knew that This confusion, I knew where it was coming from news coming from these institutions: academia, petitions dollar S and we have them in the film by power Well, the films also going out onto the street in every city, where we went to interview someone we will go out on the street and talk to people, man on the street style, and I was- acting naively going into this that out on the street, We stop blue hair twenty year old woman that we would get a lot of that kind of awoke non it's about gender, I was expecting mad, but I thought that if, when we stopped now just average looking normal people who are about the age of forty or fifty that's when we will get a straight talk and that's, I would have What we found is that the vast majority of the people we encountered there seem to be confused about a question

as simple as one is a woman or were terrified to talk about. they knew the truth but felt like they could not talk about it, especially on camera. That was a kind of eye opening for me did it occurred to you that that basic, simple fundamental question could not only be the title of the documentary, but it would more or less propel every conversation that you had over the course of it it's so simple matt. I give you credit for that, but the big thing Want you to talk about. Two is what we Read me when I knew you were doing this was. I know where you're coming from politically- and I have friend on both sides of the isle, who make the same basic mistake in my view again. And again, and that is they lecture. They scold They sermon eyes. They get an opportune did you get in front of the camera and they use that opportunity to tell the viewer what they say

and why is logical right, we default to that kind of apologetic, but you don't do that in this movie. You actually displayed an incredible amount of self control by asking that question, and just letting people answer and in some cases twist self is happy. Just an folk who directed it, encourage you to do that. we're going with your instincts or what it's really a combination of the two we knew going into that that's the approach towards egg was too not lecture and because I have a pod gas, I give up our guest and I I do that everyday eyes. I sit here but difficult to give my opinions about things and we wanted this film to not be an extended podcast. Yes, we want it to actually be first of all, a film that will be a real movie, but then we also wanted it to go. It's not me presenting things, and so allowing the other side. to present its own.

And we also knew that if gender ideology, which is what we're talking about to put a label on it, if gender ideology is going to be dismantled, I would rather that it be decent and under its own, whether rather collapse under its own weight, expose itself rather then. Maybe, ding, really great arguments when you ve gotta, someone is debunking one presenting a great argument: that's away, I've kind like showing off intellectually and people my what That means be very impressed by and autonomy impressed with I want them to get the point and the best way to do that. We found it. Just let people talk now, I will say, bring johnson falcon to this. We shall this film over the course of about a year and when you're actually are they're doing a day in and day out and getting all this footage and I'm sitting across the table from people and people. I disagree with cell fundamentally on such an important issue. Listening to them say things to me that I see to be as totally insane that there is a god temptation on my part to just at a certain point, drop it and start

yelling them and just change the focus on the documentary entirely. I was complete. to me when I got about seventy five percent away through the documented in the last twenty five percent will be just me screaming at the camera, then that's why Fourthly, just following to producers on this film were able to step in pull me back and say: men are now. This is the point here. Is to ask questions and that's all we're gonna do and too Regional point about this simplicity of one is a woman. You know that to me this was years ago when all this, for began to really achieve mainstream acceptance on such a large scale, which seem to have an almost overnight. I mean that the roots of it go much deeper, but You like eight or nine years ago, it seems like we went from not talking about this to everyone's talking about those and was right around that point. Then it occurred to me that this basic question one is a woman kind of so is the dominoes falling you do want to keep it simple, because I think, in my view the people who are promoting this stuff. Their number

One tactic is too obvious gate and to make things seem a lot more complicated than they are at all times is very intelligent people. They had academic backers. And their very good at making simple things seem complicated, just think of things. In simple terms, I've benefit from the fact that I didn't go to college, and so I'm just a simple thinker: that's not a parlor trade and just how I am ends, I think on this issue. That's a benefit because is actually very simple. You gotta keep it simple. I think you're right but I think you have to answer some pretty complicated questions along the way, not just around the debate. around the business of making a film where do you start right? Where do you see start the conversation, whether your writing, a peace or whether you're making a movie like you guys. Went back to kinsey and What's his name money, alfred money, right drama to people was it alfred. John, was john money cancer, John money right, kinsey money. Why You choose to start it there and explain to people.

who they were and to what extent they informed the debate today, you're starting to there was in some ways part of this team of keeping things simple. because, of course you could you take any social phenomenon you can trace back as far as you want to and this is something you could take all the way back to take back hundreds of years. If you want- and there have been- I'll Truman's and arthur, we want a book called the rise in triumph of the modern self he's in the film, and in that, which I would highly recommend ever wonder. If he traced is the philosophical roots of this phenomenon. Back hundreds of years but in the film we decided to start in the mid twentyth century with these two guys, because that is where Obviously they were influenced by people who were inflows what you want, but this is where gender ideology, in its current form, that we recognise started to take shape with, right around that time, especially with these two guys, and they were both kind of sex allergies, sex researchers in the psychotherapy. But germany psychotherapy realm

had slightly different focuses for john money. He was very focused, the issue of gender and in fact the whole idea of people having a gender which is distinct from their sex we mind up until around them and twentieth century. Nobody talked about god, somebody in eighteen fifty and said: what's your gender, they would have looked confused because they don't understand themselves what because people having genders is. People who write a sex engender was a grammatical concept. Words had gender, not people, so was john money who, was one of the guys who thought of this idea that actually people have a gender anderson eggs coined the term gender identity and other related terms we use so often today, and it was his notion that while we do have a biological sex out gender. Is you know this? The way that we. express our sex and it's an entirely different category that is determined by society.

We created it. You glossed over something there than I thought was important words. Words have gender that was the limitation of our understanding. The word, the french language, for instance, seems very heavy on it and so forth, but to some We draw a bright line between sex engender, yeah right that must It happened at a fixed moment in time and that must have been drawn by a specific individual. Yeah. That's all part of the theme of making simple things seem complicated, What you find, we, I think slices out a little bit in the film is that later, can we talk to Jordan petersen, and he really makes this case. I think compellingly that concept of gender is pointless. You don't needed what people actually most time trying to talk about when we talk about their gender is simply too personality, there are male. Females, but then there are many. different ways of being a may all there are many different ways of being a female, so it's not

putting people and these really restricted boxes. When we say that your male or female man or woman, it's a bite choice, those other categories, but within those categories there are many differences. Expressing yourself with that's all could fall under the personnel the under the umbrella of personality, which is what Pierre They are trying to say when they say gender, so this was I think that the very beginning and effort to complicate matters it never made a lot of sense, even john money, if you go back and read what he wrote entirely clear on what exactly the distinction is between gender insects and why you need it. We tried to as we flesh out in the film you, he tried to confirm his findings and actually conducted experiments. Human experiments on people and the most infamous case are the case or the reimer twins that we talk about in the film area, two twin brother said one did Adam circumcision, one of which the circumcision was botched, and essentially aren't his penis off and the parents bring. Childs John monies are what do we do about this and he says well just

raising as a girl, because gender is social construct and sell, construct an environment, he's a girl and raise him that way and everything be fine and that's what they tried to do? But it was not fine because, even though there are raising him as a girl called on, while he was still many recognise that didn't and wealth was up they did not end. Well. All right in part of the story is its along complicated story, part of stories that these or test subjects of john money. So the boys were brought in throughout their childhood to john money for follow up and the parents apparently didn't know that those follows included. Actually the use of experimentation. All I in adulthood both boys is that it came and ended up killing themselves their lives or just utterly ruined by this The point is it was an attempt at an experiment to confirm this social construct theory and the experiment failed and catastrophic fashion so from

very beginning. This thing is literally a failed experiment, and yet his ideas, even though they work also catastrophic, and he discredited himself. His ideas remain then they eventually took hold of society, forgive the hopscotch nature of maya, interrogatories butter I don't know assume the listener knows too much so talk four minute. If you would about the underlying stakes, and the reason that this topic and will come back to the language later. But the reason this specific topic is so important to you, what is happening Now, as we speak, is a hormone blockers and transitioning and with kids and with suicide and all these things. I know the stakes are high, but how high and to what degree did that

inform your decision to spend a year on this topic. Do do do do do do do do do do tell them how they get ya thanks MIKE they get you with us, thirty day free trial, no obligation to buy it's the truth, man, its thirty days, I dont off their science to support this, but I bet there is thirty days perfectly reasonable amount of time to figure out if you like, a subscription, but it's also the perfect amount of time to forget that you subscribe for the damn thing in the first place, right, which why the average person has twelve subscriptions, the average person thinks they pay. Eighty bucks a month for their subscriptions, it's more like two hundred wow, so rocket money is a brand new sponsor on the podcast, I'm thrilled to welcome them.

lord I've downloaded their app. You ve got it downloaded yet have you used to get yeah? I mean it's telling me like all of my last purchases that I did on my credit card. I can see. I can see how much money I have in my bank, when the nice check that you send me every two weeks gets deposited that kind of thing. Yeah. It's all there we're going to have to discuss that heard about rocket money from Ashley and our office and she's been using it for a while now and really at four. I just thought it was a way to save a few hundred bucks a year on these unwanted subscriptions, it's more like seven hundred and twenty dollars a year on average over three million. we are using this app and their saving a fortune it also ties into your credit card right. So you can like there's no surprise at the end of the month. You can look at rocket money any time and know exactly what you ve spent where and when and you can set it up for an alert. So every time something is charge, your credit card, you gonna, see it on rocket money, it's pretty good, the other thing they do

that they will look and see what you're. spending money on each month and they can lower your bill for company used to be called through bill? If this also familiar familiar they're called rocket money. Now are seven a lot of people a lot of dough. Stop throwing your money away, cancel your unwanted subscriptions, manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocket money, dotcom, slash row! That's a rocket moneyed outcomes, lash row, shocks, to me one more time and make me want it rocket on a dot com, slash row save We can show you write money that ragged muddied icons, leisure, all right, I think the ultimate stake is reality itself. That's really. What is at stake is. Are we going to be a society with a basic grasp of fundamental reality or not, and If the answer is not, then you couldn't

and count the number of bad consequences that follow from that in Austria we would be doing something totally unprecedented. There has never been a human civilization that has to reject a reality is fundamental. As this young man and woman. How can you function. That way. The answer is that you can't buy this. Also not theoretical? On my part, we can already see the consequences. As you mentioned, we could bearing out with kids, so the first thing you mind is that trans identification, as these ideas have gain a foothold in the culture, totally dominated now they ve taken over the academic, situations the school system all that time, the delegation among kid has absolutely skyrocketing. We'll talk about exponential increases, and transit invitation among jens and the younger generations generation below that as well and It is not a natural. This is not the course of natural evolution. This is because kids are being indeed Alternated into these ideas

part of that indoctrination- and not just an idea party, that indoctrination is actual physic changes that are being carried out that are being inflicted, on his kids Kids that are starting before puberty put roma on what they call puberty blockers and purity. By the way, are chemicals. astrogation drugs. Leubronn is one of the two, not the only ones, one the drugs that they give to kids. And this is a drug that has actually been given to sex offenders for the purpose of chemical castration. It really is a cancer drug for older men with prostate cancer, but has this off people use and on they say what you give it to the kid at a young age so that you can stop puberty from happening. This is the claim but puberty on pause, so that the child can decide for himself for herself what gender he wants to be, and I mean I he wants to go forward with the transition. That's when they move over to arm to the or hormone replacement drugs

now. This is when permanent life- altering physical changes are happening to the child. Still a child, including you know, arguments sterilizing kids way before they can ever hope to have kids of their own in adulthood This again is happening to children. This is chemical castration sterilization drugs being given to kids, who can not when all of our laws around consent tell us that kid age cannot consent to these procedures, and yet what we're hold in the case of these drugs. Is that somehow they can, but they can't will, where's it coming from, I get kinsey get money. I get the laying the groundwork for all of it, but is it big farmer is it money? Is it? good day? Is it our with care system feels like an alliance? of sorts, but you're right. I can't

Think of anything over the course of a generation that has evolved or devolved. If you prefer so quickly as this and so yeah you talk about the age of consent. You know you can't vote you and order to drink a bar like the list of things you're not equipped to do is long. The ep somehow you're talking about nine year olds, declaring the this is who they are their truth. And a long line of adults are Standing there, handing out leubronn right, what makes it so insidious is that all also are pushing this stuff. They were all kids ones and we our kids, and we know what it's like to be an adolescent to be a teenager. You know that you're impulsive, that you're not thinking about the future, even something like

and this is not even the worst of it in terms of their physical damage being done, but the valuable sterilizing kids. Well, so, let's say of fourteen taking a drug going on urge hormone replacement therapy being sterilised. Bogota fourteen, possibly know what it means, quote: choose to never have biological children you ask me when I was like twenty three: whether I'm ever going to have kids whether ever want to. I have told you when I was twenty three: I'm not gonna get fast forward. Three years? And I have two kids now I have six so that I could be happier away to a baseball team. Exactly I'm almost there brings me deep. indescribable joy to be a father, but the point is that even in my early twenties, I couldn't have seen that so to be teenage or how could you possibly know and so We all know that we know that. That's what it means to be a teenager and yet is being exploited to is that another part of being an adolescent, a teenager is not feeling wholly com.

Double or at home, in your own body. That thing is especially the case for girls when you consider the even more dramatic changes that happened to their bodies as they go through puberty thing. Is this part of the and why the a majority of the adolescents and teenagers who are getting transitional procedures are girls. This is most common when it comes to the adolescent teenager demographic, its most common by far among girls. How does this slippery slope of this workmanlike? Where does it normally start and at what point are you you know a sixteen year old, a fifteen year old, getting a double mastectomy, I mean: is it ro won't run, isn't a frog in boiling water. What's the typical path that you found What part of makes so difficult is that there are so many different ways that a child can end up in this position. One Is that what they call even a term for radical, rapid onset gender does for you and I El schreyer talks about those in her book, irreversible damage, which is another great, but that you should read on the subject by these

adolescent girls, who now thirteen fourteen fifteen round there who are perfectly normal and fine and never talk about anything with gender. Never never have any inclination towards declaring themselves trans, and then one day it seems like out of the blue. They come home to their parents, and this actually, my boy now and I sometimes that the idea of this kind on rapidly, maybe a sort of an allusion to the parents, bark they realize what's happening behind the scenes, but other times it is kind of rapid a girl just start again, these kids are balls. They just find them. I was tumbling down into this world really rather suddenly and oftentimes. could be entire friend groups, all at once, so now they're kind of feeding off of each other. They just out of nowhere. It happens, something that can happen, that's federal out by peer pressure by what they encounter on social media appear culture at school. In all these, things can conspired together to pull out held into this very quickly But then there's also especially these days when you've got young kids

were growing up in a culture where these ideas are mainstream, I think you have kids who fall victim to a. Much earlier here all the time about five and six year olds, who quote use their gender and they begin what they call a social transition. Now the people that are proposed, of this are very quick to point out that, while no one's giving drugs are performing surgeries on five year olds, which of course they are yet but they are putting kids on that conveyor belt where that, eventually be the case by beginning this so called so. Transition, which means that, telling a boy. Oh you're, really a girl dressing, the boy up like a girl and then what that leads almost inevitably for a lot of these kids is drugs and surgery down the line because the kids are going to oftentimes, they feel like they can't jump off the conveyor belt already a committed themselves. To this end, we imagine being an eight year old and feeling like your committee, into a lifestyle. Did you

your bill mars tag on this, we'll see I'm on a lot but every now and then he says some stuff that just slays me and I think he was talking about when he was twelve years old. He was pretty sure he was gonna- be a pirate. In fact, he was certain right. like you know. Thank god I didn't talk. My parents and I ve no solid off a leg. Given me wooden crutch taken, and I bob give me a hand and put the parrot on my shoulder not to make that light of it. But it's not a small thing: the capacity for an eight year old or a twelve year old. To feel certainty is no different than our capacity like what? Maybe I'm saying that wrong? We know more. Obviously, we live longer, so our repository is larger, but if your reply, The tories filled with a liquid call it certainty. Then it does it matter. how big your repository is, it's either filled or it's not, and so

feeling of being certain when you're eight is not much difference. for me anyway, at sixty of feeling certain about anything else that you see like an obvious thing to say out loud, but I know people will be upset to hear that There's the certainty but then also- and I agree with your boy: the differences with the child was a young child. Is that what world are they certain of a young child lives? A five year old, ok in a world where It wouldn't seem unusual to them if they walked outside and saw an actual fairy flying around in the garden or they saw a dragon fly overhead on their heads. It was like they wouldn't react all that surprised them, because that's the world they live. They live in a world of like half, make believe and because, have only a varied, sorted tenuous grasp on reality, which, in a healthy society is a wonderful thing about child were so delightful thing that children live in this world wide web

I believe in reality, sort of blend together we try to foster there. in healthy ways we sort of play along with this ideas. As the child comes in and says, I saw a fairy as you play along with it, because it's a fun and wonderful thing well now. It seems like this kind of there being ability to fully grasp. Reality is being exploited in the most sinister possible way telling them these things about what you can really be a girl, of course, to a five year old boy, if you tell them that hey, if you like the color paying you prefer playing with barbies, rather than gee I chose than you are actually a girl to a five year old tell him that ensure ok. That makes sense, because, he lives in a fantasy. Landmines are even if you could tell em anything telling a story about a magic batman flying through the sky with reindeer. He believes that too and makes perfect sense to him, so they don't have. Grasp on reality, which is why when they say something like actually a girl, though it's a boy. Let that statement doesn't even mean anything. It can't mean anything given who it's coming from a really

following question: when the girl was the a boy say. I'm actually girl here is a follow up question for the boy. What is a girl? What do you think a girl is and the response, you're gonna get oftentimes. As he's gonna tell you about he's to give you two christians are the kinds of things girls like to do. They liked the color pink they like to play with barbies. That's all he's trying to tell you like telling you some deep inner truth about his inner being he's just telling you that he likes color pink, and he also wants to play with barton not saying give me leubronn remove my genitals right. Ok, yeah it's a bit of a tangent. When you talk fairies! When you talk about the one, of imagination and our desire to foster that in our kids I won if there is something to the fact that game of thrones was a pretty big deal, and lord of the rings, was a pretty big deal. I dont know you, but I'm guessing that you ve read those books. I did, and I didn't

them as a kid. I I read them as a grown up and people today are riveted flying dragons is spent fire and harry potter and Well, my boss, over at discovery, warner brothers, and I got the bag of schwag. You always get for christmas and it's filled with all kinds of things, including magic wands from harry potter, right and so I just wonder I mean: do you have any thoughts on? Do we ever really get over the wonder of fantasy and possibility and have we, the royal. like we have. We taken our own adult fascination with fantasy and all that could be possible kind of hit it back over the net onto the site of court where there's a nine year old,

are we reinforcing the fact that anything is possible through our entertainment preferences? I think that's interesting thought. I think, there's probably something to that. I think it's. A good thing certainly to hang onto a sense of wonderment the world in interest in fantasy and all those sorts of things I mean. I know I read lord. There is also a thousand adult, that's a good thing, but I thought The problem these days is that there's a future it is this kind of a tangent. I shall go off on one too, because I think are the problem is have taken this sense of wonderment we kind of corporate eyes did and we ve turned it into franchises, and so it's like franchises incorporate brands own all of that now, and so why, when you hear about adults that are like hanging on to their childhood, I talk about it. Show today. Theirs if we get the word they use for now kid alt is the word they're using our kindled.

And that's the word that toy companies are using to describe people on my generation who are still buying children's toys for themselves for themselves? Yes, a mother, rules are now and john actors are keeping the we companies afloat, because we not meet up going, I'm buying, these toys for ourselves and on one hand, if you wanna take it like a signal positive way, you would say, while people are there style Jake, and there are hanging onto childlike wonder- and I would like to that way, but when I see more is that people, Their nostalgia is entirely based on brand low. two, and so the only thing on a strategy for are the consumer products that they used when they were a kid. there. Then, like the experiences, you know there's, a lot going on, but its sort of been perverted I suppose, in a certain way, I just I mean the more I think about it, the more fascinating it gets a healthy machination is a good thing. A healthy

and to see life is probably a good thing I don't need the fight I'm about to pick. I work for the people who own them. For universal, but I think you may Jane and like the twenties or thirties I mean I get. Superman I get awkward and I get all that, but now there's a universe and to your point, it's not being marketed to kids, it's being marketed to grown ups, it's hard not to wonder when you think about the amount of time the average grown up spends immersed in entertainment, that's firmly rooted in fantasy and or immersed some kind of interaction, that's firmly rooted in a screen in some kind of virtual identity. You come back in all that together and what you're really talking about is something answer the call to reality and that's a fun place to visit? You know Disney was real good at that, when I was growing up, it's a little to see land, but now it's not little

Its enormous and our new rules. Anything is possible that guy's a wolf man that guy can fly, I mean Is it any wonder that anybody can be anything they want to be if they just think about it, hard enough and prayed whatever god, they worship. I think, on the universe, think this is a fresh worries me to know and when I hear people say well, the other so anymore, more movies that they can make in the star wars, universe or in the marble. Universes I hear that what you think about all the movies you can make in the universe like the actual universe, is endlessly large there. So many stories you can tell you, don't need a tie it to this particular brand. This is like limited in a way. I know why they do it because as money remaining, but actually limits our imagination and a lot of ways outside by the way. To that does nothing. With wanting to relieve your childhood, which I think is a lot of. What's going on with a special people, my generation millennials

obsessed with the nineties like anything ninety, so we will have to talk about the nineties and you have also millennials into a room within about five minutes: guarantee they're gonna be reminiscing about the commercials they liked in the nineties. It's quite pathetic there's nothing wrong with that in internet itself, but there's a proportion for everything and proper proportion for everything. There is also a way that things are ideal the dawn and so you're supposed to relieve your childhood as an adult through your own children, so like you, have kids and I would just playing with man, toys myself the other day, but I wasn't sitting by myself on the ground, room when my wife and the kids in the roof of the playing with bad men, like I was playing with baby in toys, my son, and so I was experiencing that with him. I was kind of introducing him was bringing him into this thing that I love you. I was a kid and, or you know, you go with your kids to a theme park and you experience it alongside then you're bringing them with with you, rather than these, like adults, who are you to go to disneyworld, and if you want your kid to meet mickey mouse, you gotta

in a line three hours long, because there's a bunch of adults by themselves. We also want to eat mickey mouse, there's a proper way experiencing these things. But part of the problem is that with no one else I have decided not to kids and also have to just relive it themselves think, there's something relevant to your movie, and I think there is something wrong and to the whole controversial part of our conversation. and it starts with a question- is anything possible and It feels like a lot of adults today, really want to believe that anything is possible and that reflected in our entertainment is reflected in our virtual lives and- if you say wait. A second, that's actually not possible, then europe. formatively on the wrong side, your squelching, something that's precious and I think Matt it even goes into science. I've been lucky, as ten years have been narrating, the show called how the universe works. I really enjoy reading the copy.

and I'm fascinated by all the possibilities, but with guard to the multi verse with regard to the idea that there are an infinite number of conceivable universes out there we're all living in some sort of mirrored dimension in some kind of you know, multiplicity, world That gets real, serious conversations like real physicists sit down, and they talk about this really really seriously, and I don't mean the cash shade or suggested, there's nothing to it. When I, to say: is that is only possible in a world where anything is possible right and in that world this whole business of tranche gendering of transitioning olaf?

such possible because anything is doo: doo doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo doo down, so the feedback on covered tax relief, dot, org is kind of incredible they just got a small retail business. Almost eighty thousand dollars a manufacturing business nearly two hundred and fifty grand and a big district sure business, almost nine hundred thousand These are examples not get tease and not all businesses will qualify. But if you run a business or a church or non profit, and if you pager employees who all or part of the pandemic you very well could qualify for up to twenty six thousand dollars per employee through the government's cares act. That's the good news, but you gotta jumped who all kinds of hoops to get the money and it's a major time suck- also there's a ton of click bait out there and all kinds,

companies who will make you pay up front and then make you do more. So the work and then take a huge percentage of your refund covert tax relief dot. Org does not do any of that they receive a reason the commission for doing the work, but only after you receive your refund with three hundred cps and tax experts on hand nobody's better at getting the maximum benefit than covert tax relief, dot org visit carbon tax, if dot org now, because this plan will expire soon, that's ovid tax relief, dot, org. I think that is the fundamental question, but I would maybe phrase it differently, and so I think that the question it lies in the bottom of this is Is there such a thing as truth, an objective reality out. There just exists and whatever, in their reality is there and if it's not, it's not, and I think that the lot was talking to in the film they want

We live in a world where there is no objective reality. There is no true that we all get our own truths that people talk about these days on. This is my truth. I'm living my truth as if we each have our own kind of true, that we can possess like it's ours, but we don't. You know. Truth is something that you are a part. You live within you don't get to take possession of it. That's the world. want to live, and which is why I must every conversation I had in the film with somebody. proponent of these ideas. Almost every conversation quickly devolved into exactly this is. Why is there a true thought? You know, there's a truth, who's to say what is true and what is it There are some moments in the film there are some moments that didn't make it into the film because we had to cut it for time, but there are, even in the film a few moments quickly see just the absurd? links that they will go to maintain this delusion that they get their own truth. I think there's one conversation in the film I ask a woman is used That's a lie. A major issue of yours and I say: well, If it's my truth, that you'd

exist, fancy said to me. Well then I don't exist. That's pretty amazing yeah she's, going to raise her own existence. For the sake of her our wording to win. The argument should feel my god use Think seriously. I bet you already have about just populating social with quick exchanges. There's a guy who utah or two at a university who was extraordinary he was one of several people who said: ok like your thirty seconds from, Ending this interview. I don't like the way you're going that to me, he was the most one of the most. interesting moments in the film, it told me that he, didn't know who you were map, he didn't quite know what he had agreed to and when he figured it out, he didn't like it and to your credit. Wasn't I gotcha you were still asking the same basic questions, but,

when he realized that his on answers warrant quite lining up. He got angry. What's the thing, oh, the twitter was so upset about lives have tiktok the reason that site is so interesting- and the reason is I think relevant to sure that content is because its unfiltered, it just speaks for itself. And there are so many moments in your film that, where the, people. You are interviewing, speak for themselves and we I hear what they're saying that guy he could not put the poop back in the goose and it was not a good look for him. Yeah I all the time. Well, how did you get these people and even talk to you? An answer is that they live in a bubble way their ideas have just never been challenged, certainly not to their phase, and they are a comfortable night bubble, and they simply assume like. I think that when we sat

to talk about these issues, people that I'm talking to they couldn't either, imagine Anyone would actually challenge them on this because to them. This is like basic got you have to accept this to be a good person, yeah and science, it's settled science and in particular, I think. If you're, he was a professor women in general studies, wherever in the world like no one is going to university and taken a gender studies class and then going to be sceptical about these ideas. If you're sceptical about em, you would never sent off that damn class in the first wave result. I think He's just never simply has never been actually challenge facing us because for a lot of these people and if they started to realize that oh, I am going to be challenged and challenged only in the sense of being asked. Actually, skeptical questions, in other words, He asked a real question other than aside from a fake question: that's really just put their as us for you to launch into your meal. once these aren't. I realized that that's when I got oftentimes got really angry although you know they were threat

the storm out and almost every person we did threatened to only one point actually did the which was interesting. The rest would threaten the congressmen, the congress, and he's torn out. That was really in time is about a thirty minute. Conversation and he was very uncomfortable for about twenty eight In other words, it took twenty, eight minutes to work up the courage, get up and walk out, but it was it's too late. That was one of the funniest moments in the movie too. It's like, I just want to know what a woman is and you're not gonna, find out yeah. You too soon a family wants interesting. When you watch go back a watch, I clip you, can see him as I'm talking to me his eyes, keep darting off to the sides that kind of looking behind me and that's because his aid is adrian in the room with us standing right over my shoulder the whole time, and I think he was looking for her a bail out, and you never did it also german up, but you know that thing that struck me with a lot of, interviews that you did was, I dont know if it's paternalistic, they talk to you

as if you were a child, and it just made. We think is that how they talk to their patience. Is that how they talk to their students? There is just a oh. I dunno a mix of paternalism in condescension. That would have been difficult to sit quietly through from me. I imagine it was difficult for you too, best ever to be condescended to especially by people that you don't. You know special, given what they were saying. While there were condescending to me. I think that partners, their style. I think it was probably wrapped up results of defence mechanism being condescending. So the moment they realise that they were being ass well questions than they really wrapped up the condescension it's, probably just my overall aura that they, you know, as I'm just some bumpkin in a flannel with a beard, and it's like the way that I fuck. They associate that with a guy walmart, which I do share the walmart, so they got that right. It's a good! weird by the way. Thank you. Thank you. It's like a reflex to talk you in our

it's actually interest, in contrast, because here the eternal is to come, pension from these people, but only once africa. We talk to you a tribe, I'll drive in africa, the besides the messiah right in from them. It certainly was not condescension, but they also like they felt sorry for me, but in a really sincere ways for them it was kind of a pity, but it wasn't insulting is actually kind of, is sort of sad and I sad for american culture because I started talking to them the way that they looked at me and talk to me like they really were. Very sad to find out that this confusion exists in the world and they fell bad for me, because they thought that I actually was confused myself. We never like clarified that to them, because we wanted to get their authentic reaction, so that was interesting too. There's a great word. We don't hear a lot. It wasn't amused, and it wasn't confused. They were bemused, they were bemused and made. The amusement even more interesting was the fact that it was all going through an interpreter. So,

you know the messiah languages endlessly complicated kudos to that guy for learning. wish as well and here he's, trying to explain to a tribal elder what your basic questions are, and it was kind of The other thing that made that scene met so interesting, and I love you take on this because I got all kinds of stories the flies you are covered, everyone is covered with flies. It's so hot Obviously, there had been a rain, so the flies had come forth and I know how difficult it is to come. In our view, when you're covered with flies, but an interview with an interpreter, honest Jack like this with flies. Everywhere that had to be a hell of a journal entry formulated at night Yeah, that was not an expert in that field. Like yours, I was what we what I was expecting was mosquitos and, as with everyone, tells you to watch out for the interest enough at an encounter building one mosquito, but the flies where there was a play applies everywhere and one day

I didn't want people to take from that part of the film. Is that, where sort of idealising that life, like I'm saying I wouldn't be greater, live this way to get back to similar things. I wouldn't want to live in that village surrounded by flies and all that? No, that's not the point. The point is either as a few points. I think, but one of the points is that these people live then a culture that is fully we talk about. Balls I mean they are fully outside of the west, turn culture bubble ends. Don't have any of the same basic assumptions that we have and they haven't have absorbed by us Moses, these culture, ideas of gender ideology, everything and so if these ideas makes sense, then you should be able to go to someone who has never been introduced to any of this annex in a way that makes sense. But once you talk to someone about it is totally outside the bubble. You see how utterly nonsensical. This is because it goes back to my point, which is that

primary question is: is it possible is applied? simple for a man to be woman is apposite, for a woman to be a man. If you are open to the possibility then you're gonna, have a very different kind of conversation if you're not open to the possibility, as I think for I, don't. The last eighty thousand years, most people weren't. I mean it's really only in the last fifteen or twenty seconds right that this thing has become like we're number four on: let's make a deal, there's a new door right, there's a new car There's a whole new thing, that's possible, but to your earlier point back in eighteen, fifty know this: wasn't it conversation and here in twenty two, twenty to in that part of africa with tried. No, that's not a possibility; they haven't yet accepted it as possible, so the question becomes: are they backward they unenlightened or are they sophisticated and wise and you'll probably get a different answer depending on

who you ask, it doesn't have to be either one of their certainly not backwards and on a line, you? Don't need to be sophisticated to understand these basic realities? I think the answer is more simple and I don't mean simple. We know we say this like it's people. Take that as derogatory. I consider myself, simple man proudly and people who live a simple life and so They haven't lived in this culture where these ideas have, because everything has become unnecessarily complicated, evacuated started talking about this. I think that first time, when I even ask them what is a woman, they didn't understand, question and not because there a woman as well, because it's such a simple reality? They could understand why even ask it, and so they assume that was asking something else, and I just something was lost in translation. So originally, when I first asked the question is started talking about other of tangential related things and then eventually they realise that, although I really am asking this is like the thing that they ve always known intuitively, because it so simple

now someone is actually asking them about it, and so they have to explain this basic research funny, but I even asked them in the film like. Do you guys spend any time thinking about gender, identity and the answers like now. There's are there live in their lives and they know what there supposed to do. I think that's part of it all the messiah very duty oriented do you too I went before and in society? Thank you and I, like if you're a man. This is what you are supposed to do for your family in your community. If you're a woman. This is what you do, though responsibilities, don't utterly, and we define what a man or woman is, but you don't know what you're supposed to do. And so they don't have as much time. I guess for like sitting around navel gazing about what does it mean to be a manner when what is there just gonna live in their lives and doing with their supposed to do. I do it back to the language in general overall, but before that, maybe a little bit on the emotional blackmail that I think

is in forming a lot of this. I feel so badly for parents there's no real playbook for it seems- and so, if you ve, gotta niner ten eleven year old or younger and older whatever it is and they're coming to you with this belief then man. It's a very serious thing because obviously there's so much suicide attached to this. I just wonder how did you address that in the movie and what advice do you have if any for people who are just scared to do anything other than under the wishes of their nine year old. the first thing to realises that the emotional male is emotional blackmail. That is, in fact, what's happening to you as a parent and there is a terrifying thing when you girls, but you're going to an authority, You trust like a councillor therapist or you know, school accounts or something like that, and they Look you in the eye- and they tell you point blank,

if you do not go along with this year, you're being a boy for example, that she will kill herself. Like four apparent. Child committing suicide is the ultimate is literally nothing worse than ever happen to you in the world and that answer We are taking the absolute worst possible thing and bludgeoning you into submission with it, but what parents need to realise is that there is enormously high suicide rate and suicide attempt rate among trans identifying people. But what that tells us is that, when people get lost in this lifestyle. The that's what causes the suicide rate. That's where comes from when someone is war with themselves, when they are rejecting the fund, until reality of them. Selves that call as is an immense amount of despair, and so the waiter

scan. Your child from that is bring them into is to help them, except cells for who they actually are in or not except some phantom version of themselves that they've concocted in their head when your daughter says I think, I'm a boy. Your message should be: no, you are a girl, and that is a wonderful, wonderful thing. Let's talk about why you don't wanna, be a what is being a girl that scares you, let's talk about that. Let's talk through that! That's what counts! in therapy for a child should be, but it's not because now they called the affirmative model of care and what they're. We affirming or not affirming the child affirm the channel the firm reality. That's what they're doing farming, the confusion and therein consigning all these kids to self destruction and by the one of the key point about that, because the other side will say there were bundled everything I just said is gonna. Be that well know the reason why you have the sky high suicide rates and one transferable is because they're not affirmed as trans, like their trans identity, is not without being bullied there being ostracised marginalized

that's why they're committing suicide we know That is utter nonsense, not just because of common sense, but also because we live now, even they would admit in a much or trans affirming and trans inclusive society never before in history, but the sewers. I rate, hasn't gone down so was the case that we should see suicide rates plummeting right now and they're. Not not only that, but you know, let's go back to in fifty again in eighteen, fifty or in nineteen. Fifty there were no kids. openly identifying as trans and being accepted as such and yet according to that side, they will tell Well, there are tons of trans people just that they were unable to come out and declare themselves as such one We will look back and nineteen fifty nineteen, twenty nineteen other shouldn't. We see an epidemic of like a catastrophic. dammit of kids killing themselves en masse because they were trans

kids in the closet and they lived in the least affirming culture possible for that lifestyle. But no you don't find it child. Suicide was basically not thing and essentially didn't exist at all- is a rare exception until recently So what we find is that a society becomes more affirming Suicide alley goes up, that's the actual correlation, and could it be because in eighteen fifty not everything was possible in nineteen. Fifty not everything was, possible, but in a world where everything is possible, where it's not only ok to transition, but where the path is made clear that be the door number before that becomes affirmative possibility and then, if you don't have the thing, that's possible. I would imagine that creates a different level of axed, then not being able to have the thing that isn't possible. it's hard to find a corollary, but if you like

spread your arms right now and levitating and flew off through that window. Behind you, I would be gob smacked obvious, lee, but right on the heels of that would be something like envy ride like why can't I fly like mad can fly. I didn't know that was possible but some deeds can fly, they have beards and their thoughtful and they fly boldly I should grow beard. Maybe I could fly to gravity. You know poverty is a rule. It still one of the few remaining realities. I think we can all agree on lean back too far on that chair you're going down, but to your earlier point, there people in your film who say no, if you don't believe in gravity than gravities, not real for you, and if you believe you can I who am I to tell you that you can't we're still in this place, where how dare you tell me that the third

I want the thing I feel and the thing I believe and my gut with all that certainty isn't possible. How dare you tell me that back. That's like a little bit of semantics, but pushed back slightly, because I do think that so much that everything is impossible, that everything is in truth like they want believe that anything is true. That's there. That anything is true or everything is true, but that's not the case that technical eggs. I think that we want to get really philosophical about. It would say that technically. It is possible for there to be a world where men can become the women re like or where there are more than two sexes that is like possible, you could I mean for all, I know there's, maybe a planet in the universe somewhere, where that kind of crazy stuff goes on maybe there's a plant in the universe somewhere where people can fly like. There's flying elephants are like dumbo, I mean that's possible there's a universe you could create where that exists. But that's not us, though, that is

this reality less than this universe? That's not this planet, it's not true that's it the realities. Just it just is what it is. Then we happen to live in a reality where there are. We too sexes mail. Female and you cannot cross the barrier between the two. You might be for that its other than that, but it just is this We have to start there. You can talk about. Why is it this way with it? But it is this, and the first step towards living. The kind of well adjusted thriving prospers life. to be able to understand and accept what is and then operate within those confines, because that's your only did you find anybody in your film to be persuasive, who was on the other side of this. Did anyone get close

to giving you an answer to the titular question and was there any one who you kind of left thinking? Ok, their misguided, but I admire them or their nice enough, or I mean was there anything redemptive, in other words, about the exchanges that you had no no one came close to persuading me. No one could even answer on outside could even answer the basic question, so they can. Actually questions that we're not anywhere near the level of persuasion. Now there, some people that I encountered, who were nice, and I was impressed with her. stay used that was also rare, but that in fact, the first person we talk too in the film the therapist. We talk to we do want, is gender affirming therapist. and she was very very night. She was a very nice person, very sincere and

I was impressed with her now she was me too. She was also totally wrong. You know, and that still remains in spite of how my she was? You realize What is a woman part? Two is going to be a whole different deal for you right, yeah, that's one of the advantages of doing these interviews, the one a woman is that, what what is woman didn't exist yet, and so that's one of the ways we can get away with doing those interviews. I have a question about the popularity of the film because You know a film like this. I went to and tomatoes, and I was expecting, like you know, a ninety per us audience, but probably a twenty two from the critics- and I was surprised, you know- are ninety six percent, but the critics. The tomato meter was eighty three percent and I found that kind of amazing- and I wonder why do you think that is? That is

some of the big I've, unchecked around tomatoes, page in a wild. By last I checked its eighty two percent, but it's like five. There are only about mrs kinnock Selina, most of them were. You know there were no mainstream critics at all who when reviewing and we sent review copies out all the mainstream critics and all the big publications and we got back in many cases, we are backing male saying, like worsen. Fact of f off. We don't know, but not the not editing it like that they refused to lodge, they wouldn't watch anything that I was in. They wouldn't want anything that deals with a subject from that angle, so the critics and what they were hoping to do was just to ignore it if has ignored it, wouldn't give it oxygen and woods fizzle away, but that's not what happened. I think it took on a life of its own and it man storage bonds,

a much wider audience than I ever thought it would I mean it had. We knew we had something that was special and that would that had the potential to make an impact. I was worried how much impact would actually make, because I knew that you know- people who usually call your attention to films would just ignore it It was able to break through that anyone is there any to see it besides the daily wire. Do you have any other distribution deal? That's part of fascinating fingers and it's on the delaware platform you gonna ones. Women are common, subscribe and watch it there, and even in spite of that, it was still able Achieve a wine audiences are also, of course, tons of clips that are circulating all over the place is well. My last question was really An extension of my first comment, which is I'm sure why it's successful as It is, I do believe, it's going to continue to grow in a huge way, but I really wonder: is it because the topic of womanhood

and the whole conversation around transitioning is what it is. Is it because the country realises on some fundamental level that our land, which is evaporating around us are we losing rationality in our vernacular, linguistically and justice last point, chuckle. Remember one of the first conversations we had on this podcast that touched on this was around the house Let's go brandon thing and my argument was look. I think the reason that caught on wasn't, because it was a clever way to say ass Joe Biden, I think, caught on because people finally saw and heard the opposite of what they were, being told when that rapporteur said: oh fair, yelling, let's go Brandon and we could clearly here the other thing he right. That's when a critical mass

of viewers. Just said now No, no! No! No! No! That's not what I'm saying it's, the emperor has no clothes and at base. I feel like hans christian andersen somehow was watching what is a woman and nodding. I think you're right about all that one of the interesting comments that I hear relatively frequently for people The film is worse than the effect. I ve been for someone to make this movie, I dont know if they had. This exists. concept darting in their head, or, I think more what they mean just like they were good. How crazy all this is and that they are living in a culture that losing its grip on reality and there not okay with it, but yet most of what they see in media and so forth is just promote so, they're looking for

something or someone who will stand in opposition to it. I think that's part of the ass. I also think that people down, even as I said when I went into making the movie, I didn't- realize- obey it was. I didn't, realize, pervasive and ubiquitous all this stuff was. I didn't realize extreme and really gets ends the people who didn't have experience of making it our brain now are not watching it. Maybe having the same kind of eye open. Experience and I did and then their passing along to someone else like you gotta see this, you can understand what really happening out there. What a brilliant roll, though I mean to really with the cherry on this to see a supreme court justice least someone nominated unable to answer the question It's not a small thing. It's not just clinical psychologist arguing or men on the street putting up stupid debates. It goes right to the very top, it seems and

the level of confusion. What is the answer by the way? Man? That's probably the last question. I should ask you: what is a woman? Spoiler alert the spoiler say that like come on, of course, the Actual answer is just adult human female and by the way, there's a lot more. You could say about women are not just with volume of the amazon. Each individual woman, there's much it's about her, but that is the simple and basic answer to the question sugar and spice in everything nice is in bad either. You know what we should do parents, because I've met some women that don't come forth hey man. I really appreciate your time. I know you don't have a ton of it. I know you're busy over there, the daily wire chuck already plugged it pretty well, but as a woman, dot com we'll get people to where they need to go up. It's a fascinating look at a topic that dumb

is fascinating alot of people confusing a few I daresay, but give it a look. It's a great dark, chuck, final thoughts. Well, I just want to say that it's not only a fascinating subject, but it's a real, He really well made documentary. You know we had just in focus this podcast last year and when you guys were doing it and he couldn't talk about At the time, but as soon as I saw It- and I didn't realize it- I saw his name in the credit. I immediately called him and said man. You have managed to do it. You ve made the best talk him her tree accede in like ten years, and it truly is I recommend it to everyone and he had just come off the heels of no say spaces and really, if you'll, from a directory standpoint. These two movies rhyme really well. Save spaces was really about conversations and words and being hurt by ideas,

This is more a rumination on being heard by a question, a simple question that turn to be really hard for a lot of people to answer and good you're mad walsh, proposing the question. Yeah final thoughts from you, we gotta go, take care that beard. Here. While it takes hours of care everyday, progenitor. I really liked here in particular that it was a Oh well made film, because that is the one coming We had over and over again while we're making. It is that this has to actually work as a movie. You cannot just be a bridging without all the there goes to just falk who were you can have all the great footage in the world by actually assembling it into some sort of. Film is an entirely different matter, which was all the aims so now he did it right, but some credit for yourself dude. I know how difficult it is not to shake your finger, not to scold, not to lecture. I get it and that level of restraint is action

leave, the most persuasive thing you could have done, and I think anybody who watches the movie with both eyes open and an open mind is going to have to give credit where its due and there's a lot of credit. Do congrats. Thanks mike pressure, when you leave a review, which we tells you and before you go and you fine. Stop

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