« The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

Episode 215: Han Shot First

2021-08-31 | 🔗

Mike recalls the circumstances of a young man’s first flight in a plane with an open cockpit, the mother who allowed it to happen, and the consequences that followed. With a little help from George Lucas, Jon Stewart, a mechanical shark, and a conversation with a pilot named Bill Whittle.


This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Hello again. It's the way. I heard it episode number two fifteen. This one is called Han shot. First, the Hon. in question, of course, is the one and only HANS solo brought to life by Harrison. Ford and little movie, you may have seen called star wars, the title This episode refers to the now. Infant seen in star wars that took placing the moss, Isley canteens on the planet, tat to wean, where Bounty Hunter named greed, oh announced his intention to abduct Han solo and bring him to a gangster called job of the hut who plants to killing. Now in the original seen Hon Solo seated in a booth across from his kidnappers. With a weapon pointed at his chest, when he learns of the kidnappers intentions, preferring not to be abducted and murdered on, takes action,
surreptitiously, removing a blaster that he had clever, he concealed in his boot and then shooting the bow. Hunter from underneath the table, killing him instantly In the original seen Han shot first and everybody knew it. two decades later, though, the director of the film George Lucas re edited that's in a way that showed greed, o the bounty Hunter firing first and missing, George Lucas did this. He said to better justify follows decision to use deadly force. Now this struck a lot of people is kind of absurd because in a gunfight, there is no line between Dg going first and firing. First, both jobs are equally aggressive. If a man or a woman,
or an alien bounty hunter for that matter, points a weapon at you and demands that you leave with them against your will. Then you have every right to shoot them from beneath the table. Assuming you had the foresight to tuck blaster into your boot and the courage to use it. but here is the point in eighteen: seventy seven, George Luke saw Hon Solos decision to shoot first as an act of self defence consistent with the actions of a hero, twenty years later he did not, and so George Lucas changed the scene and with it the history of that film, then in two thousand for Lucas authorized, another edit in which Han and Greed o appear to fire at each other simultaneously and now in the most recent print airing on Disney plot, a new camera angle has been inserted in yet Other re at this one shows a close up of greenow in which he may
an exclamatory remark in his native language a moment before the exchange of fire in which he has killed so This has reignited the whole who shot first debate with fans of star wars. Many of whom are uncertain why the sea We needed to be tampered with in the first place. Much for a second third and fourth time now to be clear. None of this has anything to do with the story. Europe to hear the true story of a boy who loved to fly. but it does have a lot to do with what happens next, because the decision, to re. Imagine a famous seen in a beloved movie like STAR wars is really not so different than the decision to re. Imagine the events and our history books and
through today's conversation is all about with my most excellent guest, a pilot named bill Widdle, whom I will properly introduced momentarily. First though, please enjoy the short but true tail of a boy who love to fly and the mother who let him sore. This is the way ahead. the nervous mom with the old fashioned name, was getting the hard sell from her too, Four old son, please mom you gotta! Let me go means the world. To me, Captain Davis is the ass pilot ever he says it's safe, please mom! Please, Paul's mother ran her finger. over the metal rivets on the way go by plane and shook her head. The very idea, that such a machine might actually take flight was hard to imagine, but Doug Davis was indeed an accomplished pilot and his confidence was undeniable.
I've done this a thousand times, man I'll, have him back in no time a promise stencilled on the side of the plane, Paul's mother noticed a woman's name whose Gina may she asked the pilot. Smiled. Well, that's my girl. He said we were married on Christmas Day and I flew to our honeymoon in this very plain, the nervous mom, with the old fashioned name side. Shore a pilot who put his sweethearts name on the side of his plane had much to live for Paul, could see his mother teetering please Can I fly with Captain Davis, please eventually Paul's Ma relented and watched with great trepidation as her little boy,
I'm to board the genome. May you both be careful, she said and hurry back. It was early August a perfect day for flying. The skies were mostly clear and the winds favourable Paul fell to rush of excitement impossible to describe not just because this was his first flight, but because this His first mission, Captain Davis, gave the signal a volunteer spun the prop in the engine roared to life seconds later, the biplane hundred across the open field, until the jarring bump suddenly gave way to a gentle otherworldly glide Paul was transfixed the wind stung, his cheeks as the horizon disappeared, revealing nothing but the wild blue yonder. For the first time in his young life, Paul felt completely and unambiguously free far.
low, his friends and neighbors waited in anticipation. They look so small four hundred feet away, Paul hoisted burlap sack into his lap and gripped it tightly in both fists. Now, Captain Davis now not yet Paul the biplane climbed, another hundred feet and started another slow circle above the eager crowd. Ok Paul get ready, Paul grip, the top of the sack with his right hand and clutched the bottom with his life, then he leaned over the side and waited for the command. Ok, bombs, away, Paul dump the contents over the side.
And pulled the empty sack back into his lap bombs away. He repeated in quiet, wonder instantly. The air was filled with a hundred and fifty rice paper parachutes below each shoot. A delicious chocolate bar floated gently toward the earth, courtesy of the kurdish candy company, Captain Davis Bank. aircraft away from the payload and back toward terra firma as the nervous mom, with the old fashioned name, paste and bitter nails all around her children, squealed with delight as the fluttering battalion of sweets floated down from the Heavens for Doug Davis. The lead pilots of the baby, Ruth flying Circus. It was just an the routine flight and one of the most
successful publicity stunts of all time for his twelve year old assistant. The experience was nothing short of transformational. That was the day. Paul became the boy, who loved to fly a passion that would stay within the rest of his life and though she did know it. This was also the day that Paul's mother was destined to become a household name, it's interesting The way men are often inspired to name their most precious things after the women they love. Those candy bars for Students were named for President Grover Cleveland daughter, roof the Curtis Candy, Company was named for its founders, mother, Helen Curtis, Paul, never forgot the thrill of his first flight or the real reason. His
his mother allowed him to climb into a biplane with a perfect stranger. It wasn't the pilots, confidence or his own incessant begging. It was the presence of that girls name on the side of the plane, that's. Why? Twenty years later, when Paul flew into the history books, he did so in a brand new plain than old fashioned name, a plain named after his dear old mom. it was early August, a perfect day for flying. The skies were mostly clear and the winds favourable paw felt. The same rush of excitement, he always did whenever the propellers started to turn, but on this day the boy who loved to fly wasn't taking orders. He was giving them. Colonel Paul tippets yelled bombs away? He wasn't dropping
candy bars over Miami. He was dropping something altogether different from a plain called the Enola Gay over a town called Hiroshima. Anyway, that's why Here's a little did, you know worth sharing. Did you know that the average interest rate on credit card debt today is something like twenty percent, a pr that she's crazy actually for anybody with decent credit. You can lower your interest rate today. and start saving money with a credit card consolidation loan from lights, and you should why, because rates start at just five point, nine three percent a pr without pay an excellent credit. Five point: nine three percent: there: no fees of any kind, the rate is fixed and you can get alone from five grand to a hundred grand the day you apply got light strain.
I can't slash, wrote to get a special interest rate discounted, save even more the only way. This extra discount is to go to light stream, dotcom, slash row, Elijah, Hd S, t r e m dotcom, slash road. Now, here's back by popular demand, to read the disclaimer in Baltimore exit, subject to created approval rate range from five point. Three percent a pr to nineteen point. Ninety nine percent, a pr and include zero point. Five percent or This scale Lois Right, requires actually credit, terms and conditions apply and offers are subject to change without notice visit, light stream, dot com, slash row, more information, Hon, One more quick note: if you'll indulge me before my conversation with bill will back in two thousand nine sixty four years after Paul tippets drop the atom bomb on Iraq.
Humor and twenty two years after HANS Solo shot Greta under the table and the MOSS Isley Canteen a John Stewart. of the daily show called her Truman a war. Criminal Harry Truman, of course, was the president of the United States, who ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki John Stewart argued that Harry true was a war criminal because he didn't first drop Comic Bomb, a few miles off of the japanese coast to fully demonstrate the lithography of this new web He made several other arguments against dropping the bomb, many of which his audience applauded and none of which confirmed my understanding. That being. The atomic bomb had actually saved many mill. and lives, in other words, the way John heard it and the way I heard it had nothing in common at all. Anyway. Shortly after John Stewart comments, a pilot, I know named bill, Widdle Rock,
Where did a very persuasive rebuttal that I was pleased to share on my facebook page and to this day I think it's one of the most important public corrections. I've ever seen, because even though John Stewart apologized for his remarks about Harry Truman, I'm afraid Lots of other Americans today still believe that dropping the atom bomb was in fact a war crime in spite of the fact that the Japanese themselves, including the Emperor, Hirohito publicly said that without this new and terrible weapon. The war would have dragged on until there were no japanese left to fight. So too did Machu due for Sheeta
The man who led the attack on Pearl Harbor after the war Machu said to Paul tippets quote: you did the right thing. The japanese people would have died for their emperor, all of them they would have fought to the last man with sticks and stones. If need be. I wanted to talk to bill today because I think the further away we get from the date that Paul tippets dropped the atom bomb. The more people forget the actual circumstances. The drove Harry Truman to do what he had to do:
just as they will forget the actual circumstances. The drove Franklin Roosevelt to do what he had to do, and Abraham Lincoln before him and harm solo before all of them. Once upon a time and a galaxy far far away, because look, if we don't remember who shot first, there's no telling what else will forget as time goes by anyway. This was one of my favorite conversations so far, it's a rambling and circuitous tete. A tete with my favorite pilot. Slash historian, Slash space geek, Slash, content provider, the one and only bill will you know, I think anybody Business eventually comes to the realisation that every single thing you do as a trade off- and I just remember watching after burner and firewall at the time thinking man, he figured out, there's no there's no network executive.
Snow fell gruyere, otherwise the you know if you're gonna get work executive, their MIKE, as that of the thing I did on the atomic bomb would have been done, but the talking dog again, it was so it's fun as a professional editor to work with studio executives who, who you know they're they're gonna come in and they're gonna take. This version of hamlet is just ass. We think it be more popular hammered out to talk. Dog. And what do you say to these people? They get paid for thousand dollars a year to put their fingerprints on things, and this is what they come up. Oil is not its as a great idea, and then I just cut it. They would look at hamlet and said: Bear Bodkin. What does it mean? Who would fondles bear to grant and sweat under way to make too many words is one of the great cause. If sums it what's a bare bud, can I would just turn omitted it's a solid chip, armor, piercing, arrowed down you don't make em make them pay for their ignorance.
Bill. Can you turn your game down? You're you're coming enriched super hot? Yes, I can t and hot. That's the way I like Maya hot, that does not just might be the title of this episode has that's better yet much better, much better thanks, sulking Charlie, you record yup we're recording. Can you see the the chat both of you either of you, I'd like to voice. Yes, I sell none other chat like that. You know where I put out o that thing: yeah yeah, yeah where's. Aren't you look at that? Look at us communicating! I haven't Are you sure you Jason whispered? Why my voice it's so thick and media shock and yours so average and bill says minors. Finian really got because you ve got the golden voice their MIKE. What are you doing for commercials? If only I had an original thought in my head?
Imagine how far I could go. What do you get to do the fort commercials- and I get to do, though you know the fear, many commercial shooting. It's funny when we did so many of those things. I'd I'd, think I've done one since two thousand and thirteen or two thousand twelve, but people still there, people out there who still think dirty jobs as in production right amazement, literally out of production since two thousand twelve, but the network never stopped airing it. This is a great deal when I take an hour to it. If there every topic I would like to cover. Do not today. Obviously, but the one thing I would really genuinely like to talk to you about his elite. Is I don't know why wouldn't do that. I mean look you're welcome back any time- and I say this before you even said anything prescient, but so many The stories in this library lend themselves to a deeper historical perspective in context that I'm I'm sadly ill equipped to provide. That's why you're here?
They are bill widdle and before we jump into it, I gotta tell you in the interest of creating the illusion of research. I did go to your Wikipedia page and learned a couple of things we have to get out of the way first, William Shatner, You worked with Shatner on what was it I worked. I did for purposes of shattered. Raw nerve, algae editor on that ship and fifteen years. Before that I was it, you first floor to do in a video for the floor to gaiters and he came to delegate a role which is their joint homecoming you're gonna get a little segment needed. One sentence from another: this guy is the most implicit in the world. We need to stress this by saying one: two, three of that for picture I am on my work here in the Museum of STAR Trek, and this is the ultimate cut. with dissidents. For me, MIKE personally, is what a great guy, what a rotten guy or a great guy and um,
You know I'm not breakin any news without one, but nevertheless he is american mythology. Had a chance owes a limo driver for many years had a chance to drive the forest Kelly was somebody said somebody from STAR Trek. Anybody want to pick him up, MR fourth I'll take it and, as always, I'll be back with driving up the Schuman hopes from family x. I asked him this like a very serious manners, and you know, Mr Kelly, really fully realised. Just put your functionally immortal, I mean, as is- There- is electricity doctor, Mccoy, gonna, pc and he's dead. Jim I mean it's. It's meets its part of the pit the recent I just thought it was an audition. I just thought I was gonna run. The pilot might go back to doing my westwards. What you said before about Shatner. So true, he, Sir he's one of those few people who who is truly iconic I was in business with him for a couple years. Briefly, yeah I had some friends who started
this company called future call which involved prepaid phone cards, and we would, by the licences for certain hollywood- properties that had rabid, fanned basis started with so you Know- and I went to like the Simpsons and the x files and so forth, so we'd put art on the front of the car. hard. Put a hundred dollars worth of prepaid time on it and then give people the going to be there, making a long distance call or accessing the entertainment platform and listen to relevant right. So I thought it was genius. It wasn't quite genius. It was a bit premature, but Shatner got wind of it and said: hey, I'm, I'm William Shatner. I can get you the license. like in four star trek from Paramount and those fans are fairly rabbit. Wouldn't you, where you re going so I said in a meeting a paramount everybody was in the meeting
and they did not want to let this licence go into some sure. You know shattered paramount when head to Head for many years and all kinds of law suits and disputes when Bill Shatner walked into the room to demand the license. He was willing to pay something for it, not much, but it it wasn't Shatner. It was Captain Kirk. Oh, he walked into the room, and I'm telling you do these people they. They sat up straighter, some of them leaped out of their chairs captain on the bridge. He demanded the license and he got it us and I've never seen anything quite like that. You know Clint Eastwood walks in its Clint Eastwood. It's not dirty Harry but Shatner walks in its captain Kirk yeah it's coming down and talking to the shepherds at the base of the mountain, you know it's gonna get to argue with em. I actually got a real. It always makes me happy when I can get Somebody really respect those having lunch with Johnny Boy, who was the guy who was in the
Viewing shatters runner that identity and a will happen Can I turn on the said? You know, John. The thing I like most about Shatner is because he will shatter movie theater. You pay seven, fifty four, the ticket, but you get twenty dollars worth of acting and judges. That was the funniest thing. That's a great joke! yeah man. He didn't leave a lot on the table. That's for sure know he did not well. The second thing on your buyer. That made me spit my coffee back into my cup. Referenced. It was your time, your time, in Florida. You ma- Mention a guy that I didn't. I thought the Jack Wertheimer was afoot. Many of my imagination, this guy, he was called the Dar hustler right and until you came out and then, and then people searching for star hustler got taken to hustler thumb the absolutely serious and that's what he had to change it to start Gazer.
as always the little boys and girls for big surprise when oh yeah there were gazing at more than there was the starfish gazer. We are again. In nineteen I say: seventy six, maybe more be seventy seven, my brothers and I back baltimore- would sit late at night and watch what I still. It was like the back block of programming around. It was so weird. It was like money, python, air video and it was the adventures and Einstein Types doctor who and in the midst of it this character called Jack. Whore Keimer comes walking out of a really cheesy kind of sea gee. I set up Chuckie standing on the rings of Saturn talking with such unbridled enthusiasm about something happened. You know in the head and it was his enthusiasm for that that ultimately,
led me to narrate how the universe works, which I'm still doing to this day, It was just that were true. I started working for him when I was thirteen June and I had my first nervous breakdown it for the planetary met his thick outdoors and I came to put my head through him intentionally. I have to say this about Jack Jack. Were camera? Was a hard go to work for, but he gave me a sin we all of the opportunities that I got started. I was a ticket take her and I came in and I wanted to work there very much because I wanted to be an astronaut. I saw the first planetarium showed him from from my elementary school, and I said I gotta work your sword and it took tickets- and I said I'll just do this rephrase it now we don't have any money should be left to pay me. Others come back for you, so I came back the next day and I kept coming back and after well, they took pity on me and start a mere two dollars in fifteen cents. An hour
I was cleaning up vomiting the planetary, because we'd swing things around a lot. You know you a lot of people get motion. Second, there sure and other glamorous jobs, but I really was really really so deep into the to the whole thing. It was all done manually, all the slight projectors and all those motions, no automation at all, so I would come in early installations code of practice shows and after about a year, this one show that he did, which is genius called long journey, the young God, which was about the APOLLO program and it wasn't it dreamily complex should run and he came in one day and said I've gotta go visiting from from another planetarium. Can we put up the projectors and run long journey, the young God and the we took, as you know how to do a one. Wasn't there in the other ones that I've got a commitment. I can't make myself, I could do it as fourteen percent he's. A look. Bills is important. You know this, you gotta get this right as I could do it opened up in practising that can do it? Ok, so we put it up and we did it
and I ran it perfectly and I started doing planetarium shows as postal operators the next day. So it's one of those great examples of the thing you is talk but make you know it's a people talk about luck and fortune and someone. You know Fortune Knox, but you gotta, have your bags pact wait a minute. You he's got it, you gotta be ready to go, and I just I just knew I could do it. He let me professional rating I ever did Was- was monitoring chosen, the Miami planetary he was, he was, tremendously supportive, a guy in that respect, but he was also matters ahead and hum and nodded a fun kind away. He was, he was just very, very almost hysterical about getting things exactly right. I'm going to encourage everybody. Listening right now, not at this exact second, but when we're done, Google Jack, Whore star dad Gazer or hustler. Whatever you like and you'll, see what I'm talking about. It's almost unparalleled today,
see that level of unapologetic enthusiasm almost frothing at the outer practically cap readings greetings Fellow star Gazers area. There has ok, but but he but he sold it because he believed that they really did. He really believed and he influence so many people it whenever that comes up and is not widely known. I can't tell you how many people are here from who whose life he chain and my more than anybody I was without the EU. Without him, that's extraordinary had no idea in my memory bill- and this I think, goes to so much that you ve written about and and talked about the way menace. Podcast is called the way I heard it because so much of history seems too well. It has to go through the filter of our own biases and our own recollection and so that has to do with timing in context and and to be sitting there in in the darkened living room in my and my parents home and to have Monty Python, interrupted or the adventures.
down your who, with this cat right, he was a different version and of reality, but yeah, lost right here, He'd been surrounded by another comes of programming. I dont know that would have resonate last Amy in my memory. If the graphics had not been so bad, nobody, what would a watch the show it was the best he can do their descended to the Netherlands to get that kind of cheese. You know I mean that it did that the grip. we're just horrible? He would be sitting on the rings of Saturn in this sad awful Cromer can do anything. You bought it because he he didn't. He wasn't ironic. Might that's one was No, you didn't do it take on it. He was just a hundred percent there and it was sincere and I think that's why everybody enjoyed it so much that's something I want to get into well. When you talk about John Stewart, I want to talk about the using piece. You wrote as a rebuttal when he made his comments about,
Hiroshima or is it Hiroshima? Can we get that story right now? It's Hiroshima, okay, so Listen to the little story I wrote, which was my attempt to find com and inciting incident in the life of a guy who went on to do an extraordinary thing. Tickets was an amazing guy, good grief, flop. Tell me what I dont know and belief, or you could fill a book with it, but where my story star, I really wanted you to come in and just talk a little bit more about it, because I know you're you're welcome warm, but I also want you to do it through the lens- if you can of what's happening right now in Afghanistan, and I don't need to make this a big GEO political thing we want, and we want mention political parties will just talk about. You know what's happening, I'm just you well. just let me say that I'm just so, struck by the confusion John Stewart seemed to express by not
really understanding what the enemy demanded back and nineteen. Forty five and the same thing that may or may not be going on right now with the Taliban and Al Qaeda and our own confusion about who were actually fighting. So it's a lot but your thoughts, while the most amazing thing frankly about Paul D, Tippit the job he did was that he did his job so well, and so did everybody also the generation that we now have the luxury of doubting their motives. Maybe that's the kind of success that they had right. They absolutely put it under the table in this we don't we no longer have to worry about foreign invasion or any of the rest of this stuff. It was an amazing guy because, in order to pull off the delivery of the bomb, you needed a game first, what was just a great natural flyer? You needed a guy was a natural leader of men.
But you also need somebody who understood the secrecy aspect of this and it's a very difficult thing to try something completely new and keep it secret. At the same time. That's really tough thing to do. He had a small group of Are we train handpicked people to a man, this specific squadron that he had em when we took over the side when we started getting bases intention and say pan the tiny and base that the that the twenty nine took off from on the atomic bomb missions had just Rosa rows of aeroplanes, but often the corner sealed off with barbed wire that was tippets pondered. I think probably the foolish thing about it is just in terms of vision. Interest is your flying, a propeller driven airplane. You know it twenty thousand feet, maybe a little lower and you're about to do the biggest bomb in the world, and it's got a full time
less than a minute? And that means you have to get the living daylights out of there and you have to do it fast and you took it to hit the afterburners you know and out at the speed of heat you ve got a lumbering, essentially it an airliner and so tippets. Essentially practice this move where the second day with I think the actually did it. A little bit of a climb kind of Olaf's thing, but the second the bomb was released and it was on its way down the sixty seconds or less so instantly. Tippets probably had his co pilot happen, just all the way over on the ale runs. This enormous, be seventeen. By far the biggest playing the war just goes into. Like a ninety degree bank and dives dives dives through the dirt cause he is trying to get airspeed. He needs to get this play going as far as it can. He practice this hundreds, if not thousands of times, and
This is what he trained all of his guys to do so. Nobody knew whether or not that bomb blasts was gonna. Tear this plain to shreds. You know people look at a flying fortress or something everyone as a kid. I was watching, like twelve o clock. I and you see these guys, the B7 teens over Germany in the fighters come in and I thought I no problem and might in my debts, over the skin on these things, because it is a cook can just super doesn't stop anything so tippets made Well, I've been on a suicide mission. He didn't know nobody knew fans of this progress. No, the degree to which I am suspicious deeply deeply suspicious of all cookie cut her advice This is true of education, Struve, job satisfaction and its true exercise. No work out works the same for everybody, which is Football is succeeding where other exercise plans, art fit bodice, an app that creates a fitness programme.
Continually adapts to you. There algorithm this data and analytics too. Few build on your last work out to maximum as your results doesn't matter. If your exercising three days a week or twice a day. Every work out is scientifically proven to be better than the last with fit bud, having up a personal trainer in your pocket, but not your wallet, because bogs, only nine ninety nine a month or fifty nine. Ninety ninety years sign up now and you'll get twenty five percent off your membership at fit bud. Dot me slash MIKE that's twenty five percent off at fit bod dot me slash MIKE, have also done some work with the do little writers and those eighty guys we're short. They weren't gonna come back and they had the backup crews offering them. Two hundred and fifty threerd doubts huge money for enlisted men in world war, two to get on the plains,
that will launching hours and hours only those with a kind of people they were. I am ashamed to say that the first time do little really real got on. My radar was in, I guess, in Chicago right in the airport just walking through. I missed my flight and I some time to to read up on what he did and the point of no return and the stakes and the leadership of all of it and a couple later. I was deeply honoured to have the opportunity to read his tribute for an annual event at the veterans do each year the tells a story, and I get goose bumps every time I think about it, and it's I hadn't thought of tablets. In the same way, I think most people Imagine the Enola gay was way up there and they dropped their thing. And you know it's it's one of the safe for things you can do you think,
he hits the bomb. Releasing any could almost imagine him. Turning to co pilot say, let's Jesus, we wish to get a kick out of your men, but you'd mention Afghanistan, and I think to me that the superficial take on it immediately is the entire Manhattan project and space, civically the first mission, because that the NET Nagasaki mission was a real real good rodeo. But tippets mission there rose from his mission in an illegal was absolutely perfectly executed and he'd been flying for nine ten hours, something like that just to get there. He dropped the bomb within fifteen or twenty seconds of when he was, but he was just perfect, perfect, imperfect mission without computers and GPS and all the rest of it, and that's because they knew what they wanted to do. They were very clear about what their objective was and they trained trained and trained and train for that objective
and they did not give their location to the japanese air defence forces. You know, in exchange for an assurance that they wouldn't come up and shooting down that particular day. I mean that that bomber centrally, whenever Japan alone, there was an another, be twenty nine with the scientific equip, but the reason that they could fly over Japan pretty much unmolested was not only the japanese defences have been down, but because we're thinking ahead, we were flying two or three be twenty. Ninth over Japan at the same attitude same time of day four months before that is to get em used to it. I must be a photo reconnaissance mission. Ok, let's go after the first couple and after a while they just kind of ignored it, and that's that's what you can do when you think ahead of right. You know what
what you're trying to accomplish- and they didn't seem to be a whole lot of thinking ahead and in what I've seen a couple lately now and to your earlier point. This whole thing is complicated by the fact that you can't really talk about what it is you're doing as you're doing it. For the first time you mentioned tinny you know the first time I think I heard somebody talk about ten in jaws when Robert Shaw is telling the story, It's amazing story it's an amazing story and the fact that he largely freelance that in the then we're onto I mean completely just just lit and it's one of the greatest moments in Cinema is actually one of the two five scenes in the history of movies, when I talked but you did everything you just man, I'm so glad. You said that I auditioned once before. show on. I guess it was TB, S, no Turner classics, and you know it went to somebody.
Knows movies far better than I do, but in the additionally, ask me about my favorite film in my favorite seen- and I said you know what I think Jaws is my favorite film, because I can't turn it off the universe, northern within for sure yeah, and it's like Jack whore Keimer in a weird way, when you of that jacked up, see gee, I effective those rings around Saturn and then you think of that ridiculous shark, in all of its plums, The awkwardness, but made amazingly real thanks to Spielberg's way of shoe and then you combine it with one of the drunk stars with respect I love Robert or from blank Sunday your, but for him to sit there and talk about What's that mission was so secret where The Indianapolis delivered the bomb. What happened, of course after that, the shark attack and so forth. Everybody knows ships with top secret that nobody, nobody knew. Nobody was allowed to know when it was expected back.
Was allowed to know where it was going or when so. These guys were the water for days and that that, finally, that fund line of, as you know, is just told this horrific story of all these people screaming. Agnes are being ripped apart and then you just gotta, gathers himself ready to take some cities, but we do the bomb. Oh, my god, you know the greed MIKE the reason the snow. I heard it the reason that the jaws of such a great movies, because the shark didn't right says why Spielberg has given his first big, directing chances done, one movie before the dual. I think, and and now he's out there with this enormous project, hugely popular novel and they built this mechanical shark. That's gonna work underwater and he gets a thing in the water. and it doesnt work and when you do see the shark in the movies you mentioned it just looks. Riddick is law right, but because, but because he shark wasn't working, he had to think of a way to tell me
stories that you had the shark in your mind and not and not see it, and that is much much more terrifying, no matter how good the effect is, my favorite moment in that movie is when you ve seen her big and mass of this thing is at its pulled up, boil down and that its pull to down in quinces I've never seen anything pull them to repose down. Three of these enormous float, as the orca out there sitting there analysing these. These three barrels come up. You don't see any of the shark, but you know you know it's like all. This is going to be good. This is not good, be good at all, but there's more to it than that bill. The camera Bird puts the camera about a hundred yards off the stern of the boat right on the surface, and he but from the interior shot with three manner singing show me the way to go home and for a second, you're, not sure why he would give you this angle, its low, it's weird, it's a little compressed the
the au goes from a hundred per cent to about forty percent. Now you ve got this little boat in the distance, with this crazy drinking song, and that's that's. When the barrels appear plop blotted slop, it's the sharks, peeled eight! It's the sharks! Point of you, that's exactly what it is. This is where the shark is. This is what these three guys look to: the shark that's when towards what a little speck out there on the ocean and he's he's taken you from inside this enclose space into this open sky, open sea and he's giving you the sharks point of view, and if that shark, we're working, you not only would remember Jaws, you probably would never furtive Steven. Spielberg is one of those things where it's it's again. We talked about this before it's a kind of fortuitous sort of said it where you, you have a choice now you can either go down the road of despair and dismay, which is the modern solution or you can look at. This is a challenge and
can't pull it off unless you got the kind of talented Spielberg has, but he was forced to realise that the best movie version this was a movie version where you feared something that you didn't see because nothing scarier than what you can't see. Well, if we're gonna talk about the sharks point of view and we're gonna talk about tippets, what was his point of view on that day, if you had to, I mean I'm sure, he's been interviewed countless times, but before he dropped it after he dropped it a day later, a week later, a year later, how does it age if I had guess MIKE. I would say that on the mission Tibbetts wasn't the slightest bit nervous. He was probably relieved, that's usually what the store year for men going to combat and he had trained for so long that everything was going exactly the way it was an and pretty sure he must have had that kind of calm sort of competencies? Constantly you know an airplane sweet. We're always talked much got it. Just stay headed the airplane, you got it, you gotta think about where they are planes going words, gonna be
I'm sure he was thinking about the next two things on the mission. That's a great one too, by the way I got in reading, and I got it in LOS Angeles, which is the busiest airspace in the world and all things that you have to do in terms of communication and setting up your viewers and also to stop its overwhelming, and so they would say just worry about. What's the next thing, and once a thing after that, what are the next two things? So I'm sure that's how tippets flew the flight, and I am sure that when he got back, I know that when he got back he was overjoyed and so as everybody else, and when the news broke, one of the people that was among the millions of people that were overjoyed. What was my dad? Who was not in Japan?
was a second lieutenant in Germany. Germany had already surrendered and you ve got millions of american soldiers Army soldiers in Germany expecting now we have to go in and vague, Japan and none of us are criminal. None of us- and that was the expression that my dad and everybody else it so tippets was proud of what he did for the rest of his life. I'm proud of what he did, but I think probably the most interesting person to ask about this and forgotten his name, but the japanese aviator, who led the attack on Pearl harbor. This is the japanese equivalent of Tippit
but he's he's the guy. You go to who's going to command the ultimate mission, which was the Pearl Harbor straight for the Japanese. After the war was over, they both survive. The warn that in itself is kind of miracle. The japanese pilot who led the attack on Pearl Harbor, said to tippets. Now you were absolutely right to drop that bomb, because if you hadn't, we would have fought you with bamboo spirits to the last man. That's the culture that we had of the emperor had said, keep fighting. We would have fought until twenty million of us were dead. You did the right thing and you saved a lot of japanese lives and it's not very Truman's job to save japanese lives but he did he saved a lot of them. I want to talk about John Stewart for a little bit. I was so interested in the way he got a new sort of agency to use that platform to talk about things that man or to him in a way that was unique to his point of view, and I and I really do respect all of that, but I was watching in with the two thousand and nine
where someone really he made those comments. I think you Old Harry Truman, a war criminal he did, and I think he formatively said that well had we drop the bomb off the coast had begun a better job of demonstrating to these people to our enemy. What the capacity because of this weapon we had, then that would have been far more monetary and sing to do that. Raymond early on when I said I'd, I that made me think he didn't understand and who are enemy really was at the time and ended eggs me worry that we don't really understand who are Who are enemies are today We have the same cynical sort of attitude because of the comfort that we live in the prosperity and security that we live in that these men soccer
as their lives for means. We can be that stupid. They will lead us to become the stupid because they kept the wolf away from the door for seventy years now. But when I was watching that clipping group, full of people said he thought Eric trim was war criminal and I felt my temperature going way way up and then the argument he got into was that he wouldn't have been a war criminal. If we'd only warned them. that's when I went back and started writing this. This afterward and after an exhaustive six and a half minutes of research, I discovered something called the LE may circular, which you can find on the internet, and it is a leaflet, would be twenty. Nine on the front and on the back, it basically says if you live in these cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including, but not limited to these cities, get to the country immediately. The united,
Aids is going to be attacking these cities. In order to end this military regime, that is oppressed. The japanese people were the friends of the japanese people. We have no quarrel with them, but we're going to put an end to this militaristic thing. Now. I did notice that, while the drop millions of these pamphlets over Japan before the atomic bombs, I don't recall any pamphlets being dropped over Hawaii create a pearl. Harbor but but stewards argument was no. No. We shouldn't detonated went out in the bay and then, if we, if we given warning of what was coming then they would have surrendered men than we would have been the workers. Well, the Manhattan project was the most expensive project American his when they were refining the uranium at Oak Ridge. The centrifuges used one six total electricity generated in the United States, one six
the total. U S. Electricity was dedicated to generating enriched uranium from such reaches the Manhattan project, probably use more electricity than the entire empire depended part. But if you put a hundred people in a room right now, a hundred Americans who fell see themselves up to? speed and more or less conversant on the war and what not How many know that there are great was in Tennessee. It's. It's breathtaking to me. I read years ago about the amount of electricity that was required and about the cost him it's it's thence they had what for bombs, maybe one day we tested while this is my tire point when it was rebutting John on this, we managed to get enough of the stuff together to make for bombs.
we had one uranium bomb, which was little boy, the Hiroshima, and that was basically take a hunk of uranium and you fire a bullet of uranium at it, and we were so confident that that would work we didn't tests at design, but the Nagasaki bomb and two others to Tony and bombs and for them to work They were a sphere of plutonium encased in steel, surrounded by explosives and make these explosive had to fire at exactly the same instant in order to compressors thing, because if one of them- is just a mellow so Ananas. Secondly, practically then there's a place for the explosion to get out of it, there's no efficient. They had to account for the length of the cables, six or seven feet. A cables had to be put into their calculations, electrons moving pretty near the speed of light, and they got a factor that it so they had to test this of the forms we had little boy. The uranium bomb is off to the side. We take one of the remaining three bombs called gadget and
the trinity test and once gadget worked, we had some confidence in that. So what it was basically saying that John Stewart Look, we started with four bombs. We use twenty five percent of our nuclear arsenal to test whether this one's going to work, and now he wants us to drop one off in the bay which now leaves us with fifty percent of the total bombs we have, and by the way, this right only part of it really got snark use and has it supposed to work John? Was you get on the phone as a hey? A Japanese recommend how's it going guess it listen just want to give you a heads up about something on Sunday, one shall getting your launchers got. The top he'll hear and looked directly self took was about fifteen miles. Out brings sunglasses, it's gonna be. something you really need to see. We're gonna put a bomber over there to make a demonstration for you guys for what about you do not know for sure get down cause which I told you know they're all when exactly as I and all the rest of it and somehow, if we do this, then we won't be war criminals, but if you see it and turn it down than you would be, but
might the main point of all of this is it's all moved? His point is moved anybody who claims that we should have demonstrated the bomb because then they would have surrendered misses the point. We dropped a bomb on a city, and they Didn't surrender ripe, We granted automotive Schiller and they didn't surrender for three days, and then we dropped another one and they still didn't surrender. We drop the crucial bomb and August. Sixth. Seventh goes by we're waiting for surrender. Eight goes by know that looked like they got the message yet. On the ninth we launched in August occupation, the tenth goes by the eleventh goes by the twelve. by we're getting blunder before ready were beginning to think Magdeburg enough to run a whole another one of these atomic bombs for the invasion four days after the second bomb was dropped. The japanese Minister of Defence with twenty million Japanese willing to commit themselves to suicide attacks, we can repelled the American Invasion Nagasaki.
and hiroshima- are radioactive clouds, and there still talking about facing Americans with bamboo spears. They were training. Japanese children put explore the pacts on their back and dive under american tanks when they came ashore and and and when the emperor went to finally make the announcement of the japanese surrender. A small group of japanese high level officers attempted to kidnap him and prevent him from surrendering because that's how committed they work this this bastard, I dispersion of bushmeat so when you listen to what here, oh he'd have said, he said the enemy. Now has a new and powerful weapon, and this is why we are ending, or he says it verbally The last thing I want to do is trivialize the death of thousands and thousands of people, but honestly might want to think about this. The only thing I can think of in an analogy is in these movies from the forties were somebody gets hysterical and finally, someone just slap them and they can
and the next thing. This is. Thank you cassettes. Essentially, what happened? Yeah it skin browser thanks. I needed yes, yes, you know what you did you needed. I mean you didn't actually Hirohito needed an excuse him. He needed a fig leaf. The atomic bombs aloud to surrender with what was left of their honour right. Yet if there had not been atomic bombs, there would have been no point in the spectrum from Pearl Harbor to whenever the end was in nineteen. Forty six, where something happen, but the atomic bombs put a milestone down where he could say to his people there. No defence against us not now I dont know what John Stewart knows, who doesn't know, and I hate to generalise too much, but I'm going to assume his audience doesn't know a lot about this either love and you referred to the emperor a couple of times.
And now the correct me, if I'm wrong, I he was a God emperor, he was the God Emperor of Japan, So in the God is a society. This is a deity you're talking about absolutely us one hundred percent, and so basically the men who most believed in the application of the emperor, we're ready to kidnap the emperor, the sick about that four minute: Jesus crystals the earth and you put a gun to his head, put him in the back of a black Sudan and driving someplace cause. You don't like what he's about to say: ok, women, just sauntering after Nagasaki, four days after Nagasaki Relays after Nagasaki three days after here here, he toe is finally persuaded that he's pissed an upper rope right game over you know my days, I have been working to surrender yep and I'm going to the radio station now to surrender on the way to the radio station. His top people attempt to kidnap him
member of the hard core, japanese high level officers, made a serious attempt to kidnap him and prevent him from surrendering Japan, it's just so, and full of cherry on the top of this make such a pen surrendered right and now the Americans are everywhere. We were in the harbor where we we started. Putting some guys on the ground were starting to go to a personal. we're camps and free these guys, including by the way three Doolittle Raiders he'd been in there since April may of nineteen forty two and the guy who headed the Kamikaze Programme, the emperor who surrendered is for five days later. He says I want all of you guys to come me we're gonna, launch kamikaze attacks now on the american fleet that is essentially anchored in Tokyo back and and the other guys around. I'm kind of saying why don't you go first year after year and he did he did so for five days after the emperor has surrendered, you
got a guy out there in a plane trying to launch a kamikaze attack on the american forces to restart the sting and see. This is selective history right. If you dont know these things, then none of it makes sense. If you dont know that a pile will ever was seated by a politician who was preceded by APOLLO nine of an appalling. If you just look at APOLLO like it, parachutes out of the sky, then it seems impossible. But if you look at the entire history, this This programme, you there's nothing between Ellen Shepherds, for laid a new Armstrongs first step is particularly incredible. You know, I mean it's all incremental right. It goes from impossible in a vacuum to inevitable and a timeline perfectly set, and so thank you Chuck make a note per se, police said in fact, that might even be a better title for this job. That down now here
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the irony and the sarandib any that have informed virtually every one of these conversations. I've had now for the last thirty eight weeks, Jack and I have expanded the format of the pod cast and I'm still somewhat hesitant to commit to this whole interviewing thing. But down this, Have you drove a stake through the heart of it? Didn't have other tables over her? Yes, now I finally have clarity should lie everybody in. Thank you get the save, excuse The emperor had. No, I'm just look the sharks point of view is a fascinating thing to room on, but even more so right. Now, I'm just thinking the only time I've ever met you in real life was in an airport. Actually all know, that's not really tonnage one of the three times we ve met, as it would appear that the last time we met was at the airport, definite corral. this time we were added up a lunch for an organisation that may or may not have existed, and I as yet and and so we had a roomful
or American a safer. There were Dolly Mercosur absolutely and and we were going around talking- and you said I I just saw this video call eat the rich. Did you go see the six actually making anybody see this house a meeting is actually slap might go out again. The video sites, the kind of impression I made- and I think we might see each other at a restaurant later that night or something yes, are you carry out that would twice night our right chalk actually brought me at that meeting and another year, and I sat there Looking around gas, I think was there and I d been. I will go to it right, may or may not have been there. I can neither confirm nor deny, well. There is a great example sorry to interrupt, but this is a great example of how will people remember things differently cause bill, and I talked about this yesterday, where he mentioned that story at the restaurant and I was like, I had a different version where I introduce the two of you together at Barneys Beanery.
Amen, hustle right, my version that so I heard right here. Actually I've, never everybody's got a different version. You thought that MIKE thought at the time. That was the elite I was in the airport. I thought it was Barneys Beanery. You thought it was a disregard nice this memorable as all that? Well, listen, man! all history, some of its macro, some of its micro, some of its personal well played some. its huge right, but I mean I dont know how John Stewart heard it or whether he heard it at all, but in the interest of keeping this somewhat on the rails. Chucks point is, is exactly right: Harry Truman can be a war criminal. If you don't take the time to pay, back a few of the layers and ask yourself a few questions and look. It goes the other way to right, I mean,
part of the fund of these stories is keep you know the cognitive dissonance that comes when we realised that Hitler like dogs, right it, ain't right, So, as I say, the murdering others, people use a swell guy aside from that year, and this is the point actually that I think the pit so obviously enraged me so much about calling Harry Truman Work Criminal, because when he made that decision we had been firebombing Japan Nightly and for those people say. Well, that's racist thing: cuz, a yellow people have a little talk with the Germans in Dresden. Those are about his white people get we were firebombing them too. That's what world war, and we are so far away from world war that the entire idea knows just inconceivable to us. But if hurry Truman is a war criminal, then at the oars war criminal, because he ordered the fire bombings of these cities and
if at the oars war, criminals and Abraham Lincoln, is a war criminal, because he ordered the union army to burn Colombia to the ground and so on and so on and so on, and if all these people become war criminals John than what does that due to the actual war criminals? What does it do to Hitler or stolen if you'd, if your basically saying that hurry Truman and out of Hitler more or less the same guy. What is that, due to the millions of people who died in those extermination camps, He had a lower them down little bit. Doesn't it you know just sort of smooth sings out a little bit its Merle equivalency. When, when you hear about american atrocities, which happened in war, and then you say what were no different than the Nazis, look, there's a difference between one guy who goes off and kills a bunch of civilians and then is caught. Courtmartialed tried and imprison versus giving orders to go out and kill us. Many civilians as you can. One of them is a defect in the human heart and the other one is a defect in a civilization, and these things don't way the same.
The difference between Paul tippets and bill widdle with respect those lights. But right I mean it. I guess maybe part of we're dealing with today, is this inherent baked in suspicion of our heroes and this inherent baked in propensity to. try and understand our vigilance and while all of that exist under the umbrella of objectivity understanding when they really really meets the cheese. You're gonna have to decide York you're going to have to pick aside, and I think that's the thing that worries that will never change. Unless you too, We believe that good and evil are utterly fungible. There's gonna come a time when we're gonna have to choose
Afghanistan worries me because we're not in up in a head space right now we're making those decisions feels wise. It feels like a capitulation and it's not we're so far away from reality that were allowed to make bad decisions, because we have nothing to compare two. In other words, if used let's defined the police, you could say well, if we do, that will get rid of police. Pretend and so, when you say defined the police. In your mind, you think you have a perfect world where there's no police brutality. What you're not thinking about is what the world looks like without any police and the thing come to realise. Is that these days, the only way to cure people these better, just give it to him. I did a segment in the cold war did a forty part session on the cold war, and when I was talking about the difference between the two sides, because personalizing things, everything right. This is why you,
Joseph so popular, and why and why your tv shows were so popular. It's gotta be about people, you gotta, connect, big pictures to the human experience, or else it's just data, so I was trying to find an example of the difference really between America and so the? U N in terms the Cold war and what I ended up doing was set on one day. Joseph Stalin personally signed, over three thousand death warrants in an afternoon? He killed millions of people, but just in one afternoon he just went down, listen and adjust, checked off three thousand people to be killed one day, the worst thing that bright eyes an hour ever did on a date with He was on the golf course and he got a little upset any hurled a put her in the general direction of one of his eight. Now, if you can't see a difference between these two things, murdering three thousand, people versus being Irene up the chuckle put her in the general direction. Somebody if you can't see that there is a difference between these two things. A chasm is unbridgable care
then there's something wrong with. You something wrong with me and is not something wrong with anybody else, or something really seriously wrong with you. If you can morally equate these two things. Well, if you hear something really screwed up. Let me just say this about the stolen I've sign three thousand bucks before at a book, signing Ets exhaust that guy must have real. What a word at the excellent navvy didn't have the machine staff them, there is no magic ban, one other things it's one was was was looking at the humour of the Soviet Union, so you basically got stolen, psychopathic murder. You ve got Khrushchev who had tendencies. He was You know considerably less evil than stolen regimes. It young Sakhalin, Senor pressure is kind of a communist guy. I'm gonna things its first to look at the jokes from each one of those times. So you appreciate this, so here's a joke about stolen that was told in style. time very, very quietly so comrade stolen, is at the fifteenth communist.
The national parliaments, thousands of people in the room and somebody sneezes encumbered stone steps, a speech in school sneezed and, nobody's terrified and nobody says anything silences. First row of you stand up. Should this entire first Rome so down the goat, Four hundred people get out now, who sneezed and again everybody's Turban second wrote stand up, tell em up gun them down whose needs. Finally, in the back, this guy raises, like a trembling hand, discovers elements are governed, though it was me, it was
We'll need. God bless. You stolen money goes on with his usual with a sick. So that's the stall job. The Khrushchev joke is Khrushchev goes to a farm, a collective farm where their growing pigs and his it's a publicity. Think, as this is just another one of the benefits of soviet labour, so he's got a picture there, surrounded by these pigs and then they're gonna run the stream problem the next day, but the editors and like my cup, of how we can help you to put this comrade. Shove among the pigs pigs with cumbered Christian in a week, we gotta be very careful about how we gonna do this. So the next day the paper comes out and below the picture and says Comrade Khrushchev, second from left
and then the Breton have joke is Brezhnev loved this metals. He comes into a politburo, meaningful dates and and everybody's amazed. These not wearing his metals, walk up to his cup, a bishop. What happened? Did you did you what happened to your metals and he looked at his? I forgot to take em off my pajamas, and so you can t The Russians have married to russian and the Russians are masters of this dark humour, because sometimes the only way to cope with things. But if you, if you think about those three jokes, the descending level of terror. You know I mean they just that that decision the level of darkness as it slowly emerges to them that maybe we can say something not taken out and shot for ya. you got. A guy who sleeps with his metals, coming all the way off the heels of a guy who will bless you for sneezing and then shoot up half the room
last one allowing superfast justice did General just is my favorite joke ever both the civilian, so others? This little babushka goes into a comrade. Brezhnev's offices, I demanded speak with comrade Bristow or come regrets, as is very busy. I was in the great patriotic war and I sir brush and so on, and so, but I will speak covered oppression of so she just doesn't leave she stays there stays there stays. Finally, three o clock in the morning, Bristow comes out the been things comrade Bristow. This woman has been you forever. She just wants to ask you one question when question on an impressive says: yes, what is it coming? What what did you wish that we should combat prisoner? with communism, invented by politicians or by scientists and burgeoning says wolf by politicians, of course, and the woman said I knew it if it had been invented by scientists they would have tested it on rats. First Let me just say something, though bill. You know your your podcast, the cold war. What we saw was great and there is
great section in that, where you go through a bunch of the the dark humour that this union used. The dissidents used in my favorite thing is the expression. Then it seems really prescient recently that the the future is known in the past. That keeps changing. That's exactly right, future certain surpass the keeps changing and that's why I kept thinking of with all of the statues coming down and and and everything and at an end, and now we see this in front of our very eyes right with them when we're talking about the Taliban, our partners in peace- they're, not our enemy the highest, K is our enemy, the delta version of this is our enemy, it's not the Taliban. We would be friends with them the whole time there are partners, their running perimeter, security for us, we're pals us is the exactly how we were supposed to do it and then all of a sudden this came along and ruin. The part Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia right, always until suddenly it's not an end. This effort
To suddenly make the Taliban are. Allies is arrest. mirroring and mostly to result of spin, is just spin. Here's a catastrophe. So, instead of having a catastrophe with our allies, let's just say, not only find it. This way along with great bodies, are partners. A piece to the Taliban are brothers. Is somebody and canadian government's it? Here's what different? I think and this is where we started- is probably a good place to start to wind it up, but you said at some point in your rejoinder to John Stewart, you said: don't worry sixty four years later, a snark comedian will come along and set the regulated already, and what I you too mean was a breathtakingly short period of time. A single generation, the bulk
of Americans can become completely disconnected and unfettered from the fundamental facts that existed in nineteen, forty five that ultimately drove Truman to do what he did right in sixty four years well, nine eleven were come up on the twentieth anniversary just twenty years, and I would argue even less than that for us to get to a place right now- we're a big chunk of the country is affirmatively thinking about the Taliban as our partners in peace. If that's not the way, I heard it written in fire and stencilled into the head, I don't know what is that's really about all there is to say about it the reason that I've been looking for this podcast so much By the way, I can t what an incredible disappointment. It's been a failure
Well, the dinosaurs, MIKE, if it weren't for falling standards, neither one of us would ever but but that the current serious point to be major. The reason I like it job so much thought it was. Such an important shop was because, if you don't see these the infrastructure, which means the below the surface structure, then you can assume that it doesn't exist. Water flows, sewage, those electricity comes on its all magic. We don't have to think about it. It's only one- You're shown these things that are that are actually there. When you only shown, the other side of the story is pallaby would say that you begin to realise that. Ok, if we only if we cherry pick the stuff, that's immediately visible or made to be immediately visible, then we can form any conclusion. We want two once you start talking,
the people that have to do things like clean dead animals. Out from underneath the house, which I had a guide where possible and roused to three years ago, Sunday crawled under there came out with a plastic bag and he was pouring a hose overset sure night. I don't tip the sky two hundred bucks because I didn't have to do it. You know he did it, and and without this acknowledgement that the stuff- that's not glamorous matters and in fact, matters a lot more than the step that is glamorous You end up with a society that extremely unbalanced and when, when you ve got a society where the information is being suppressed on half the argument, the irony of this is: is it having a discussion having information, that's what thinking is and if you're gonna, lock half of the population out of the discussion through social media and so on, those people still get to think the people who don't get to think are the people you're, presumably protecting, they ve never heard anything different? They ve never had their ideas challenge and then you get people.
sensors single. That's not true what I say. How do you know it's not true? How do you know you ve never heard the other side of the story. You don't have the faintest idea, I'll tell you the challenge for me and I think you and anybody who is in our industry right now, who wants to be persuasive, has to figure out the difference. Between talking to a room full of the people you described earlier, where we apparently first met a place where you could say: ok, let's preach to the choir. Like most everybody in that room, was it ethically on the same page but in the real world, when it comes to media social and- and otherwise I made my bed and I've- got a lion and it's a good bye dirty, job, somebody's gotta. Do it returning the favour this podcasting? These are all. These are all attempts to talk. Broadly and in a friendly way to people on either side of the Isle. But one of the things I think I'd said to you
guarding Europe, your excellent video eat. The rich was indeed the rich get was look. I could never say that any the formats where I work, but, but I can from time to time look get lessons from the dirt, and I can do with special, which I did called Brown before green, where we take the position that look. We all live on a healthy planet, but May you dont want to march and lockstep behind Al Gore or Leonardo Dicaprio. Maybe there are other role models who care just is deeply about conservation and wouldn't it be fun to meet some of them, and you on Europe on your podcast. You did something, recently on safety, which is a big thing for me. You you basically needs done. It was based on Europe it was a safety. Third, as it was eighty three young, no safe that story all the time that we this this safety culture is making peace not only scared the more you protect people, the more scared they get
I'm sure all of us, no actual members of active seal teams- and these guys are fearless- and they don't freak out at the sight of a pattern chewed in the general shape of the pistol, because two days ago they had with real pistols, shooting at them trying to kill them and nothing else beyond that, really bothers them very much? It's gonna make do with the sponsor actually biological thing, but when you were when I did all that, based on safety. Third, if if all of the suppression is predicated on our safety and the obvious logical conclusion of this is well, then, let's all just walk or selves in the bathroom have you that that certainly the safest thing we could do you don't go out there to catch crabs in the Bering Sea, because safety is first and it's not second, either right. We live in a world of risk and of all the things that scare me the most now is this. Dear that somehow life owes us a comfortable dead, the death in bed at a hundred and three surrounded by relatives. We peacefully just disappear off into the veil
we can't be killed by violence. We can't be killed by disease were not allowed to be killed by anything. We ve got this idea that life owes us this safe, perfectly secure life and its a credit to the people that have gotten us to this point, but when We came along. My response was okay. Now, there's a new way to die. There's a new waited I wasn't here before, but smallpox was a way to die, It's not here anymore, typhoid, bubonic, plague. I live in the senators I could probably catch robotic plate, but as easily as is as copied my team. But if I get robotic plague, I get a shot and fine. So we take all of these ways to die off. The tape bull and one new way comes on to die. What ninety nine point- nine percent survival rate and we have to shut everything down. It's because we we ve been trained to be terrified because we ve not been allowed to fail when we were young
if you, if you dont, lose a little league baseball game, then you don't know how to lose your job and you don't have to lose anything. This is the thing that concerns me, the most about the time when you were a very small boy, growing up in the shadow of the cold war, You and I and Chuck we're all of that same basic generation doc and cover right. We knew that there was this thing that this new way to die Visa VIII fat and or little boy or gadget were the fourth unnamed bomb, That was a new thing and I think it was Cs Louis who wrote in nineteen forty eight again how to live in the atomic age was really just an answer to a question somebody who said how can you possibly sleep at night, knowing that Armageddon could fall from bombardier doors of any number of planes at any time. How do you do it, and-
your fans in your listeners will love. This plea share it with embodied the very, very, very short version, same way. We always have same way? You slept when the Vikings could pop up any time. with their swords site. That feeling is, always the same, but it always feels new and always feels different and as we navigate through that we, always do some really childish things. That's happening to us now, I'm afraid what we call it a novel corona by its shell. the virus might be new, but there's nothing novel about the machine of the gods. And, what's your Louis said, was really true what it comes down to his. If you are determined to make a population as free from threat is possible, then you prevent the development of courage
in individual people. There's no need to learn how to be courageous, if you're being protected from cradled. A great courage is a learned activity and in a healthy society its given to children in small doses, were you give them something report, little bit of courage. You're not gonna, give a four year old and iris audit, although my sister has to picture my sister taken was used for, looks like he's about to get one, but you u gradually increase their exposure to threat and you increase their emotional ability to deal with a threat, and when you were, you think that you're protecting people by not allowing any threats to be in there all you're doing is making race of perpetually frightened people afraid about everything, because I've never had develop courage. What's yes Louis said, and I quote, you said: is how'd you sleep in my sleep with courage, I am afraid of this. Yes, I'm afraid of it, but I'm not gonna. Let my fear master me. That's what courage! It's an you can't have courage if you, if you try to prevent people
from things that are scared, because the scary things are going away? That's the thing right! If the, if the actual scary things were in fact, during that we could all be the eloi and who cares? But it's not the case. There are actual threats out there and we have to face like animals, and that means we have to develop a sense of courage and that's what growing up is what a great place to learn. The plain and Allah gay tributes was scared. She didn't want to let her boy gamma rays exactly right. She was scared. He was curious, the pilot, was confident and saw how that triumvirate, I think, is the thing that forges the people. That you write about the heroes that you write about Paul Tippit, became the man he became for long. The reasons, the least of which certainly isn't the fact that the pilot of that plane once upon a time
and his girlfriend stenciled on the side of it. You just never, no man if another gay had prevented Paul tippets from getting into that biplane as a child. In particular, I would have been the commander of the atomic mission in somebody else, would have been, but Paul tippets would have led a far more pathetic life. He would have you know what I saw at another get might suggest closer this like you, ve, seen the video these guys in these in these blind citrate. Their goal through these canyons and that there is a French a couple of french gadget- jack pacts on these things in these two men are like shipment, adjust the got no nowhere plan, rather just banking and flying through the air and all of this, and then I heard the one of these as was killed, and I realized that life is not about length. It's about volume right, it's it's it's about volume. How much can you put into this it is true that the longer life you have, the more you can generate volume. But this guy lived more in twenty five years than most people will ever live in a hundred
This isn't a dress rehearsal. You know where to get the head in a receipt at the end of this and then say: I'm going to have never known the real life. This is it and if living is just surviving, then how does it make us any different than sponges? You know, honestly. There is a risk and a reward and, if you're not ready to make that deal then probably life should have been given to somebody who was because you EU rocks don't take risks. You know palm trees, don't either. This is what life is about is decided what is worth increasing my risk, and what do I get out of it and Paul debates at a lot of fun that day and I've ever finding a thousand hours a fly about three engine failures and they commander full attention, but I was ready for them because of my training and because I developed sense of courage- and I have seen things and done things that people will never be able to imagine ever. I have flown between two layers of clouds with my wing it in a glass
either with my wing and avert in in a waterfall that was falling upwards. Air was sitting the mountains and going up as rose it was condensing. I look up my left wing there's a waterfall of mist going up- and I my wing in it- and I get to a point where I can see the Pacific Ocean is flying over the desert in obliged or as a cloud deck above me, there's one below me. The one above me is gold. The one blow me as purple. I could see the ocean and MIKE I swear to you. This is the thought I had I said if I go through the grill of a truck on pure blossom highway on the way home from this it'll have been worth it. It'll have been worth it. I did this and I saw it- and I remember just from that before in my life, I just reached a place of a real piece about it. You know. Well, I did this. You slip the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God. I in fact did that in an airplane with no engine. Just using my wits in my training and that moment changed my life and if I've been deprived of that, I would be very.
Sorry, the right angle is an aim. Your podcast bill, little dot com is probably the place to go for people who want to just immerse themselves in more of this sort of spontaneous wisdom and interaction. Anything else we should know about what it is Europe do these days. Yes, I am moving aggressively into I telling stories using three: the animation using a computer game engines like unreal, because the way to really reach people is to reach, and so that it did on other, been reached. I just want to show people things. I want to show people how people behave in certain situations and then they can draw their own conclusions, but that still a few myself, all right. Well, it's gonna be a huge success. I know that if there is any way I can return the favor and appear on any of your a fantastic endeavours. I owe you learns out. I had this thought prior to this introduction. Well, let's do it ok seriously and look.
got a hundred and fifty stories in this library, and it occurs to me that about half of them are uniquely suited for somebody who knows a bit more about the actual facts than yours. Truly, so you're welcome back any I'm united stories in river knowledge no well what you like in which you like the chat about and them will make it a thing thanks. So real pleasure dinner, You know I now that we know that you're, a Big STAR Trek fan as well. We have some star trek, upsets O Yemen, oh yeah, so very good ones, I'm down yeah good. I don't hang up. Jack, has to upload your big giant fat media, vascular, voice, Imprint Adam regard for computing power no getting and to officially say goodbye to you gentle listener. It's not really good bye! It's it's not even farewell system see next week it looks like we're jacket. It seems like the path and has actually morphed into a trend, and we might have to do
this again next, we have not even we're gonna talk to warehouse gonna happen, but once again you ve pulled out of Europe. You know what you ve done. You know what you ve done: chuck people being watch anyway MIKE they might be with you again in a few moments of true enough, but there's no accounting for taste with but you know what I'm going to do. Man I'm going to watch jaws tonight again, for maybe the I don't know five hundred time, I'm going to listen to your podcast, the cold war. What we saw I think you better hurry messages in Timor episodes this morning. Oh my walks out its vital way, great it out of its greatest improved line of all time either. One of you any opinions greatest improved line in a major motion picture of all time. I know what the greatest my favorite greatest improbable, it is, but it's there's no line. What's what what's the greatest problem? Grayson problem,
it is from Jaws and it is Roy Cider and it is we're. Gonna need a bigger, Bonita, bigger, but not in the script at all. in its every moment in Cinemas, when in Indiana Jones. He comes out like that that this expert arab swordsmen see how, as other stuff and and and any just pulls out his gun and and fires. It's not in the script, Harrison forded, Dysentery, he could barely stand and and he's out there is barely on his feet and he's gonna have to do this, fighting with the whip and everything, and it just turns to Spielberg Spielberg's contented you shouldn't. I saw people come out of their chairs in a theater where I saw that in the rough and when that happened, people came out of their chairs chuck and I were working for United Artists when that movie came out, and I don't I'm a time she sat through it. But I just again and again and your right now how many times did Spielberg have to learn the same. Damn lesson right:
Sharks, a mess, don't shoot it and your movies gonna be better Harrison. Ford's got the squirts. Don't make him the movie is gonna, be better. you have to use your ingenuity, ingenuity, trumps budget and anything else that club The moment in the more in the moment, when is it? What the hell are we gonna do that almost always produces the best stuff. Just tell me works. I got a scene for you for both of em for anybody who still listening MIKE we have to work on our honour, goodbyes Chuck, but yet we're terrible at this. It's ok, now for my brevity either. There's still, sitting. So what I'm? A good company but wait a member You say this. I just want to say that the Indiana Jones Film, I have the poster that hung it United artists, the original, the ones that, back in the days when they mailed it in an envelope about you, know twelve by twelve. So it has all the
Greece's ended as well. They didn't think to yell them up back them right, but I've got I've got an original because they, let me take one- is ice to change. Unfortunately, the lost are not Indiana Jones and the readers of the last dark. Just another example of rewriting history. You know what s right remember utterly. Wherever there does assurances of Gloucester. Oh look they did and in STAR wars right the seed and the ice is it maintains he. They took the guns out of e t rights to all time, the autumn classic. If you want to talk to people who do not deep into history or politics, about history being rewritten than the absolute gold standard of evidence is hot, shot. First rate of rights, I have it. I have walked into rooms of millennials and started my speech by saying who shot first. The first words out of my mouth and efforts as HANS shut first so fit for the two of you were listening, both their parents probably
in the original movie. Nineteen. Seventy seven Han solo is pulled over is about to get money Falcon and take Lucan and open one where they're gone and he's he's pulled over by a phoney hundred plus a gun I want somebody pulled a gun on you. That's why you don't forget not somebody was ready to shoot Possum over the booth sitting down and base please gloating about our job is gonna really enjoy turn your partner, I'm gonna love turning them into an HANS and buckled is blast running at the table. He says yeah. I bet you anymore. the trigger and blows a whole in this. This reptile agreed only. Down, that's the second time I've seen people come out of a chair in a movie theater somewhere in the nineties, Lucas work in all the rest. These guys decided. No, we don't want to promote gun violence, so what they did was they know. I'm sorry. man is not a joke. This is this is how things are they re edited the scene with greed, oh shit,
but second, First MRS hits the wall behind as a professional hit. Men with two and a half feet away, misses the shot. An end should so fast that paying gloom also so Guido shut first, but the thing that is most disturbing, but this MIKE is You can. I find that original seen unless you Olivier, just if it is not available, you cannot get it. It's been erased from history. Do you have it? I know that there are people online, you haven't, you should look at Youtube Shop. On your first you'll see it means united thing that should be in the greeting on your website. It's the kind of thing, the p who were in your world should see. Otherwise, how do you yet look? That's his movie anymore, he made the movie, he put it out there. He gave it to the p. Now it's ugly, that's right! That's our culture, an end to think that ok
you're gonna, be upset if on shot first, any child realises the Greta was gonna, kill him. I mean it's not like it's on the council just walked up and the barge blew his brains out. It's not morally difficult, but were treated like children all the time and is treated like idiot. Children will to land the play for the second third or possibly, fourth time right. The second out more and more lord of the rings who shot first, It does matter when you're looking down your politically right, pearl, harbor seems to be the first shot, yeah. I guess Saki feels like the last exactly right and so, and there is cause and effect right Hiroshima and Nagasaki would never have happened. If the people who suffered Roseman Nagasaki, hadn't decided to put three thousand Americans at the bar the bay on a Sunday morning. This was the cause. This was the effect we didn't start
the war by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This was the pause. This was the fact, and when you eliminate these two things, that's how you get this moral equivalency, which is the way you destroy people's ability to make judgments of good and evil. I knew if we kept talking You would land the plane is only you can do it by God. You ve done it. Bilbil the movie, I would imagine, apropos of nothing, is called the big koona dont know if you ve seen it, but it's Danny DE vetoes greatest work and he gives a speech. on character is so flippin good bill. It's nine, nearly at every level of saint it watch it now Danny to veto character, the big koona you're welcome, thanks. Everybody for listening. The odds are fifty. Fifty will be back taught you next week
Transcript generated on 2021-09-01.