Hillary Clinton's clinch of the Democratic nomination gives Sarah, Ezra, and Matt a chance to go deep on what we know about women in electoral politics.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This we support, is also sponsored by Nature Box, gotta Nature, Baxter, Comstock, weeds for fifty percent off your first order. The following podcast contains explicit language, its annex k to have them voicing ash telling his legs. I generally welcome to another episode of the weeds boxes policy podcast, independently network. I met the glaziers out with me in the studio of my colleagues here, cliff and as reclined, but which one of us is which well of you only tell by using your eyes
question is its challenges, we're all little. Some of us are a little to be a little little tired from similar tire little. So, how do you pronounce the super Tuesday with the fives? What's the right from the bird to do it's just it's a it's, a purely typographical jack that does not. So we were spelled super Tuesday, but with no new moral, five replacing the essence, pretty ready Yang everybody awesome, but it doesn't translate into the podcast medium. The point is New Jersey, California, New Mexico. North Dakota Dakota in Montana voted? They did and Hillary Clinton one four out of their sex that's right, genders one North Dakota and Montana Hannah. I emphasise worth noting Hillary Clinton dangerous when, for the set us when the now, if you want the ones where people, if yes I would lastly, one the Norman nation is another important. I would say that this this three levels of like pure results here,
why is she won? T meaning delegate she needed to go clearly Majority of pledge delegates, as was over the top and in the total count, the other, said she won the tactical battle against Santer Sanders head pitched his campaign in California, because the whole campaign at this point had become a little bit of a sort of media campaign and struggled to control the narrative, so Bernie just part himself in California. You know said if we can win in California and do well in the other five states we're going ahead into the convention with a lot of momentum, but he didn't do well in California. He he lost California convincingly oil margin. I think the votes have not. Although we fully been been counted buddy, it's only like six or seven point margin like a crushing landslide, but actually larger than the final poles, which was yet who to three point me. I was, it was issued. She outperformed her paws. The other thing really,
to. That is that, of course, what happens in South Dakota does not matter numerically, because no people live there, but but South Dakota is a very part of typical Bernie State, with the these sort of whiteness of a giant empty square state very slightly eleven thousands of native american population, defective Clinton, one near looks like an inch Haitian, that there's a certain amount of the mobilization of Bernie people. You know that that some people who demographically seem like Barney people, dynamic sharp and vote that his campaign was not running a full organization out there. They didn't do South Dakota. You know Jitchu Tv New Mexico is also a little bit significant because one of the raging. Controversies in this whole campaign has been about the am voting behaviour
what he knows in which there's been some conflicting and fragmentary exit polling, but Hillary Clinton keeps winning all of the places that have large hispanic population which seems like a strong indication that lets you know? People are voting for her? It was passed all that. That's not the reason why she like one Clark County in one Florida and won the Texas Border counties and and so forth, but that seems to be the case so yeah. Basically, it was a third level. You said she, you said the her three levels on which she won and those at technical level. There is a mistake There is more than technical level in California. The pledge delegates, and then the third was these, like narrative points around Latinos around, like the bird the last, but indeed man I just think, really really gonna. Do I just ain't? Let me add: one new is basically an across the board catastrophic performance by Bernie Sanders who had ache. lightly bank. Shy
the theory of how he was gonna win and none of those things came the MIA. two things here. One is that it can. I think these are important. Signals are what's happening in the campaign. One. They Bernie Sanders laid off half of staff last night, which is not what you do of your expecting go into the general. The second is that the political revolution got politicos there was an article two came out and put a go. It was actually won the more extraordinary pieces of campaign reporting and has been extraordinary from slipping While the reporting, though, was but also just like you rarely see something like this Bernie, Andrews is AIDS. Some on the record some the record, some leaking emails internally from the campaign basically went to politico and said what's been going on. Lately is not our fault, it is a candidate fault. They said that he has become resentful and upset, and I do not bring this up to make sanders. Look bad.
at the camp. Campaigns are never as bad as it look when they are losing and for a candidate losing is such a difficult emotional, exhausting. Experience the Bernie Sanders I think ultimately concedes action will not be the one reflected in that in none article, but the reason I think that our goals, Jordan is two things: one is your seeing. Bernie Sanders is AIDS are trying to position themselves jobs with other democratic camp. because they need jobs with other democratic campaigns they they needed when this is over, and the other is that this is not a campaign in a functional place to be executing further strategies can be internal support for Bernie Sanders. It looked to me for the stakeholders inside his campaign to launch some kind of really quixotic effort here, so came out. I think that there was that the real results, but then there is also the kind of effect this is having internally
on the Sanders campaign, and this is a campaign that looks me to be in the allotted for waste preparing to shut itself down. If you're anything like me, you know sometimes you wanna snack end. If, what's a man snack on his junk food, you gonna eat junk food, and it's it's not great. So if you want a sort of live, a healthier life even start snacking, healthier with Nature box, they make snacks that actually take great and their better. For you, you're great with high potty ingredients that are free from artificial colors flavors of sweeteners. She can feel ok about snacking. I like some their dried fruit staff. There are great apples, grey hairs. They also have some slightly more indulgent, principally things and there that that I also article four and they recently made their service even better. You can order as much as you want, as often as you want with no minimum perch required and you can cancel at any time I. So it's really simple you than a nature box, tat, calm. You check out their snap catalogue. Does it work
its next to choose from there always adding new stuff? She choose what you want. They deliver read your door, it's easy, but nature max! You never get. Bored is new stuff there, each month, it's inspired by real customer feedback and if, for some reason something comes you don't like it, they will replace it for free, that's a good opportunity to try something new, I'm so right, now, you're, safe, even more because nature boxes offering offence fifty percent off your first order. If you got a nature box, dot com, slash reads: she got a nature box, tat, complex weeds that we get credit. You get. Fifty percent of the first order, Nature box, dot com, slash So another thing. I've been thinking about an innocent. I want to talk about in this episode was we now have our first female candidate from a major party for present and without any real, which was an ideal, but also in a weird way. Like hasn't been, a focus are like. like a big deal in this process in a part of it might be the fact we ve had this democratic primary that has gone on for quite a long time and isn't fully over.
Sanders still in the campaign, and I think still play to go into a contested yeah. That can that's it sets out as of as of Wednesday morning located he's. A change is about how we publish right, we're not responsible for that, but we You have our first female candidate from the major party which I think there's something in it staying in am one the fact had happened, but also to that it has really struck, is like this big deal moment. and that's one thing: I've been thinking about a little bed and brought about four vocs today. I guess This'Ll be two days ago. One I've run listens to this is that I think the things that have happened. Women advancing in the workplace for young women who are looking at this election, don't see it as much of a big deal that you know they ve got from college in the same sort of birds as as man actually and higher numbers that they're going into the workforce with a very small pay gap, at least when they start
and have been breaker Bernie supporters that it's not really just a story about Bernie brows to stir sorry about young women in supporting sanders in higher numbers. So I think that something very interesting and can remarkable. that we have a female nominee and the fact that their doesn't seem to be as much like We said we have a female momentum going on. I do feel that that began to change last night is something that I was watching and in the commentary and in the reactions. Having that I heard anecdotally and frankly, I think felt myself. A little bit was that people watching Hillary Clinton offer was basically a nomination, except in speech. Last night, a lot of people felt more of the history of her role. In that moment than had been until now hurdle. A lot of people say they were crying I mean did. Did you feel that that began to shift? I didn't go? Oh, I think. Yes, I mean, there's
post at the Clinton campaign put up that I have just seen shared everywhere of her like a little girl say you sing, like I don't know exactly what the text is, but these are. The point was like now a woman run for office in making the Catholic showing how historic it is. So I think there is on one hand, a shift, but I just hasn't felt like. Maybe this will grow over the election and maybe, if Clinton does, when when the election that it will be like the holy shit moment. I would say that it doesn't feel the same as when Obama clinched denomination, when, like I felt like there is even more of an outpouring of look at this stork thing we have achieved, then there is with cleansed end clinching at an No, if that's the result of gender, that the result of this particular election- but it seems Less dramatic, then two thousand eight. So what one factor that that I feel is at work here is that there was something comparable that I can think of two bombers
presidency occurring anywhere in the world like theirs and knew not been like eight Turkish. Ancestry. Chancellor of Germany. You know that that kind of thing, We ve seen in other like advanced electoral democracy? Is a woman be prime Minister? The UK one be Prime Minister of Canada be Chancellor of Germany for women, be prime ministers of of nordic countries, so the sort of factual pretty it can a woman, be elected was like among elites, I think, a question that felt more settled. It suggested that you have before work of Amr. There never been an arrogant, can nominee, but the very few african Americans, representing majority white constituency, is of any kind at any level
that's changed a little bit since his election, Coy Booker at and TIM Scott about senators and Common Harris's is likely to be the next senator from California. But at the time Obama was running. He was the only black politician in any state. Why, face in the United States. I believe, and he had one in a really flunkey kind of election. And they are in Illinois, and I think I think was like a real feeling that leg he wouldn't win and then, when he did, it was very surprising to is heading for a whole bunch of reasons. There are quite a few woman senators, woman governors, Hilary was favoured to win the nomination. The whole time there been allow one prime ministers
then it is, and I think when you look back, it's like this is a big historical moment, but when you sort of confronted in the moment no one's was Ike. Oh my God, Hillary Clinton, my when, because people people thought like ten you years ago that Hillary Clinton might be. So I want to interrogate that feeling there, because I think it is really interesting and- and I've been thinking a lot about it, so we're dealing with the situation here, where not only has a woman, never won the presidency. The United States of America, but no woman has ever in a nominee, a major party nominee for president and before Hillary Clinton, two thousand eight no one had ever come close there had been a woman on the vice presidential, take it twice right, Pailin and then before her Ferrara, but no one had ever come closer, she being no woman ever complex phenomena, and so I think the first thing that should make you think is a premise given that we have had
I think, it's fifty six elections, presidential elections, although I think roughly thirty, three of them are in the numbers of night. Thirty, three of our elections have before women gained the right to vote so we only had since making twenty be elections. Woman had the white woman had the right to vote, so I think the first thing that should make you think is it's actually really fucking heart, and it is a weird thing that we got into this space with Hillary Clinton, where we began to think that it was, inevitable or overwhelmingly likely that she would manage to This thing did not had no one managed to do before her, but that no one had even come close to doing, and I think first that has created a very weird. worse round, her were somehow we have really underestimated. In my view, the difficulty of this, but the other thing that that I've come to think in us really influenced in this by Rebecca Tracers, really excellent profile, hello contained in New York magazine
but she was talking about how the Clinton, in particular, but often women, candidates, just don't get judged, is having charisma, magnetism of on Obama, Bill Clinton even to some degree, George W Bush, but then she was like Donald Trump really like we're gonna, say that Hillary Clinton is just to work, course lake and good student and teacher to match up to Donald trump She was saying something we have to ask whether the way we have set up presidential elections and the way we have coded being a good politician is selecting from EL traits in ways, maybe that we don't really know to express, but that is true and that, let me think lot about the way Hillary Clinton one, the selection, in the way that we have reacted to it, because she thence in many ways as a weaken and flawed candidate she's not great on the stump. Theirs is
spire, and you get these conversations. I hear them all the time of. Why doesn't it feel more inspiring when Clinton runs in the way that Brok bombers campaign really felt inspiring to people whose great giving these speeches and so forth, and one thing it is interesting hears? It Clinton ended up winning election by building a tremendous said of coalitions and really relying on deep relationships in politics, and she did this the way that no not incumbent has, at least in my memory? She had rolled up more the Democratic Party than any now incumbent candidate had to my knowledge, really ever an but it his interesting about that? Is it from their she started with that. And this round of establishment support and then is a campaign turn like giving speeches and being inspiring and speaking confidently in front rooms. She would each time I'm in a way that again, two thousand sixteen begin to bleed support and then we'll, don't say she's very flawed candidate, but I actually sort of have come to think it's the opposite. That
Can I have a tremendous set of skills that are not the ones we tabled, who had a prize in american politics, but that inside game, The building of those relationships, are creating these massive coalitions like when you look at studies, female leadership, these traits are much more were common among female leaders and they were extreme extremely prevalent in Clinton's campaign and led her doing this incredibly hard thing. I really think we are, rate it as an achievement and then I think, what's even sort of a double bind and yet she got like, then it began to be that Hillary Clinton is corrupt for having rolled up the democratic establishment for having built these coalitions for having built this gigantic Weber relationships it. Unless you do this, inspiring speeches and like getting people thrilled from the rafters that you, like? An established politician who in some ways rigging the is rigging the game, because you did all that behind this things work as opposed to the in front of the camera work- and I don't know,
visit. That's a bit of a ramble answer, but I think there is something we have really underrated here about the degree to which the way we used to campaigns being run, selects for traits it are. The stereotypical agree, mail and the way, and ran a campaign that actually diverged sharply from our strategy. It worked but we have rather than I think, being impressed by that continued to sort of either dismiss it or, in some cases scold her for it right like say. Thank you didn't do this the right way that were used to rising campaigns. This is something If it's for a project and working on that you'll see inbox com in the next few weeks and a great website. I encourage you to read when you're out listening to this excellent podcast. There's a lot of interesting political science research can of looking at this question. It's become a debate over the past years is it harder for women to run for political this end, and the presidency is a bit hard to look at
because we have so few examples, we only have an example right now, one we, as of today, have one woman who is right. as a major party candidate, but there's a lot of reason. Looking at congressional elections and how we will proceed voters is it actually hard or not. For the past few decades, really the kind of conventional wisdom has been Yes, it is harder that there's a fascinating research, looking at how, voters perceive women and if you just give people like a generic, in Canada generic male candidates, they will just say the woman is the more liberal like they will. If you're gonna run against each other, the eel just find that the by says that women are more liberal. You find women are being from less connected physicians, they are fundraising as much, but they are arguably having to work harder fund rays, and do you have a lot? these kind of sense and a sense of sexism and the campaign trail kind of, moreover, than what you're talking about. I think it's really kind of interesting things, more subtle,
about how we kind of bias, typically male trades, in campaigns, but also, moreover, critiques of appearance of people's voices of what they look like that that something that women have to contend with, on the campaign trails, that's kind of Bin, the prevailing wisdom for the past few decades and then this really interesting new book came out earlier last month. I am to political scientists. Danny Haze and Jennifer Lawless would be the opposite argument which, actually argues. You know it isn't harder to run as a woman, it's just as hard and we keep actuating this myth that its harder and that's actually what's holding women back from running. I have some kind of quibbles with there events. I think it's a really interesting one where they look at how candidates are covered. example and say yes in the presidential there's like a lot of talk about appearance, you look at congressional candidates, men's appear, actually gets covered more in the local media than women's appearance, for example, or if you look at kind of the types tweets, they're, doing the running very similar campaign
on therein that mail campaigns of female campaigns dont, look very different and a lot of research that we have a few decades ago about candidates being perceived as like, better economic issues are more conservative, liberal, a lot of that isn't true when you're testing actual candidates names the hour does that polarization has been really good for women, because what matters is like, if you're a d or are not, if you're, a woman or a man. So it's it's been interesting argument. I've been thinking about lately. Is it just as easy as it becoming easier to run as a woman, but is watching kind of like what Clinton went through making it harder, making it more difficult and kind of more nerve racking for women to kind of get into politics in the first place. I think you know when characterizing that lawless research- and I think you find this- would without a lot of different kinds of studies, that that look it to spread out
between women and men, that this activity levels on which you can be talking and one is like. Do women face overt discrimination? Another is do women face structural barriers to entry wide, and I think see in a lot of the pay gap. Literature for example, that is well, attentively the little evidence of like two identical sick waited women and men are like applying for an identical job, and everything about them is completely identical, but the woman is being offered less money, but then there's lots of evidence that women are held back by various large scale, social conventions, that more of the people who are held back by families. circumstances and- and things like that- are women right and that that's like. Why on a society wide level, you see there s an end to me. I feel like that too
cream the haze, lawless research and the most provide could have way. You say like we ve found that women. Don't don't face problems running for office, but what they really found that women who achieve launch velocity do just as well as men who also do right, but there's like big picture reasons, some related to social norms and and some related to structural? the currency in work places more jobs really it seems to me why fewer women put themselves forward and, like hell, one's life story. It seems to me pretty emblematic of this right. like their young bill and Hilary are both like graduates of atop law school, both like off in low level, but Jobs for low level. People to have like their careers, are off to a new start, but you know they get married. They move back to bills home state, because
As from Arkansas, he can be a politician in Arkansas. Hilary can't really they have a baby bill is governor. Does this I have two for the price of one rhetoric about how Hilary is competent, professional person? Who has the skill to be involved in government, but that means and a practical sense, is that she's like timing, helping her husband out with his important job. They have this. I career arc that spans DEC aids? Now, eventually, Hilary is like a senator she's Secretary of State she's, a presidential candidate, but by that time their daughter is all grown up. Right is out of, how's she's, an age when normal people are retiring and she I just now reaching this career peak and by the time she's in a position to do that. She's facing a lot of a bombs in her political persona that aren't because she's a what
and so much as they are, because she's been a highly visible public figure for a thousand years right so like she has all this weird baggage from like the cultural politics of the midnight. he swayed and she used to have a southern accent when she was first Lady of Arkansas and she says she likes beyond sais new album and that doesn't seem legitimate any just like a bit silly on one level, she's not shoot, issues facing these problems really because she's been around so on, but the real why the first woman who is in a position to win is someone who's been in public life, Gillian years has to do with, like the structural position, men in American an American. I hope- and I think they would I think that undermine admired what they would say. It is worth trying to give women one less obstacle to running that like to see you
have to worry- that you're going to face like an overtly sexes campaign the greatest them survey- research in it. Where you ask people, you know how hard is it for a woman to succeed in business in politics and journalism, and they find that everyone thinks politics is the and basically their argument is that this is something that holding women back that they're saying You know I'm not gonna run for office, because I I'd want people to listen to people rising, you know my how tall. how I look all day. I do want to face this kind of uneven playing field so that you're deftly right the plane, old is already uneven. To begin with, I think the idea that they are trying to push there is this is one of those obstacles that, with I hope we could say that if this is the reason you're gonna put off running like it's, not it's. a good reason, why is ideal as you might that it's like, if you're an assistant? U S attorney, and you know, there's a state Senate see opening up where you live. and you can always wanted to be a politician like get. You should go for right, but I have to get to the
Yes, I totally agree there are these obstacles with getting to the assistant state attorney position in the first place that are that are still more real for women ever man. It's always struck me that, like one of the things about this. Did you really solace, in contrast between Clinton Obama, in into there's a way but there's, like Obama was inside young guy seem complete, on qualified for the presidency, like obviously so, but a lot of people who seem an unqualified had been elected president in the past and he's like pre like present Looking and he's gonna giving speeches and he had a right for the moment. You know tracking on the Iraq war, so was like a fuck it. well they go away and losing it was. I grow like a great like it was like a seminal. Article is like a lot of people in this position would feel that really the right thing to do is try to like a mass of plausible level of experience, the documents,
Without these huge mistake of homage, it just run despite no real qualifications for office, and I got so, he did and it turned out to be completely correct device and Obama, totally fine president, and I also know did Abraham Lincoln, who everyone acknowledges. The best president was come Thirdly, it is no obvious resorting to do it, but but there is something very gendered here, there's a lot. There is a lot of experimental evidence that shows that men are willing to. In this case, talk about thing, or raise, are here to talk about things. You don't know about a raise your hand for positions here unqualified, for whereas women demand, of themselves a much higher level of knowledge, expertise while the commission can. I give there's this green paper, Jennifer, lawless author, that book, who should ever Brookings and two thousand eight, where she kind of rounded up the type of people you expect. Roth as people in business educators? So you know state legislators, answer
That is where they, basically all the same level of qualification. When you ask them, you know, are you very qualified to run for public office? Thirty, three and men say yes, twenty percent of men or thirty, two percent of men say yes, twenty percent of women say yes and then, if you s ended in freeway kind of men rate thrown qualifications. You know higher then than women do, and this is a group or another one that you know she asked people to say. Do you agree with the statement I know a lot about public policy issues. Forty six percent of women's day ass compared to fifty nine percent, of men. So there is a very real self assertion gap that I'm the kind of manifested. an important ways that stuff it really matters. And then you you get. On the other hand, where is I mean- and this is a place- whether you really see the gendered assessment of of Clinton in particular, but I do think
MRS Advice- and this is right- and I think it's a recent Elizabeth Worn- should have run this year. He should kind of run. When you are, you have momentum, I think something he saw with Clinton is that experience is often not to a huge advantage in american politics, because you ve just been around through different cycles, public opinion and have your name, or at least your statements on lotta different piece of logistics in that May or may not have worn well by thinks. Having achieved Clinton. Is that if you listen to how people too, about her and pretty even in how they praise her? You have is very traditional she's incredibly prepared. Nobody knows leaving bucks. Bad, are you know, she's at every meeting? She super attentive me really here about what is based is superfluous, you did and David Brooks wrote a column of things about a month ago. I got a lot of criticism resetting the problem here, and in his it everybody knows how like what a harbor her she has been. Nobody knows what she does for fun, which also is not true
We know a lot about what s work with another bunch. She enjoys yoga another grandchildren, her good child, but nevertheless there is this persistent thing, where On the one hand, you have a few of these gender expectations that have affected women and, in this way, to make people feel they have to show beyond any sort of reasonable doubt how qualified they are, how hard they work? How conscientious hid behind the job and then once you ve done that people? Like? Will you she might any fun at all? I don't believe you write like an ideal is actually. This is totally true in two thousand eight as well, where, like Obama just seemed like so fucking cool and then there same things? I wrote a bet, mats suggestion I revisited, and I say about for news. We could has twenty three about Hilary and basically writing about this. Thing that initially, let's actually turned back they want to. I want to talk about that essay, but first so What what? What did you write? You a good peace today, looking back at this Pierre,
challenges are what was the original peace They come up yet so one of the great and terrible things. writing on the internet- is a good find literally everything you wrote. So my high school alive journal is out there and this era renews really There really is, as I can confirm that you know you can find my deepest turkish secret. Spam is like high school. but what I wrote about Ito today, Europe today on boxer Wednesday for everyone listening was as s But when I was twenty three is called sorry Hilary girls already rule. It was kind of this big package for news week where I was just start. My first job Torreon sustained about I'm kind of Hilary engender, and I was can millennia on staff. So I wrote from the kind of young person perspective. You call we called millennials at that point. I know now, but I think it was still generation why right as the youngest person on the pelagic seem I asked to speak for the younger than this cover package and enable a brutal essay that's
like weirdly kind of under knows this election cycle to about Hilary didn't feel like a revolutionary candidate to me. One could Obama bomber seem so cool and Hilary seemed like kind of like to students seems to me as a very young voter. That that she she put out this this. One of you guys remember. It goes like this really weird like Hilary for you and me video that it was agreed, trying to be funny like Obama, had as I will. I am tribute that, like everyone loved and like everyone, was watching, and then Hilary clearly like tried to do it and just like didn't fit her personality then also writing about how you a female Canada, didn't feel remarkable to me because I kind of looked around me and saw women succeeding at the exact same rate as men. Like all of my friends, we're going to med school going to law school is coming as you know, a very good private university, and and seemed to be on their way to great things that now it kind of mad suggestion
look at that as a second time, and it stiffly true, female. Candidate has begun feel more remarkable to me as a kind of move up in my own career, where look around and see the very top leadership position. are very rarely filled with filled with women. Imagine I've worked like forty friends newsrooms. for the past eight years and none of them that a female editor in chief, nothing can see everything as and egg it struck me as much more remarkable to think about you, as I've moved closer to those higher positions that those are still in twenty sixteen, even though we have had to stay, female. We had more leaders who are female. That is still quite remarkable to see a woman pen of push against all the option. Matt was talking about and make it to be on the cusp of me. Get to the very top position and much more meaningful to think about think about the kind of change in kind of kind of leadership?
what's going to set for a lot of women in the future, we also had a short- and there are those really interesting and- and I've heard this discussion a bit throughout the campaign that the Spected, the young women and you know, women in their thirties or forty or fifty have on. This are quite different view to China, but the pay gap and what are the sort of lifecycle trends you see in the pay gap and unity? We accept yes, you out with such an interesting charts from this paper that the Harvard economists, Claudia Golden wrote and twenty fourteen and she's done a lot of really great work on the gender pay, I am one of the things I was just so illuminating about the chart is basically is it's like music like a. U shape, almost I'm a little bit of a! U but like not so steep, you kind of like slide down and inside back up. What you see is when people enter the workforce. The pay gap is relatively small and keeps getting smaller so women who are born in nineteen, seventy eight they had about like a ten percent pay gap from their male counterparts. At the start of their career.
Women born in the nineteen forties had a much larger one. I forget what it was, but I want to say that ground, like twenty or thirty percent, but then what use happen immediately over time is the pay gap just starts to get bigger and bigger, as you go into your thirties and fortys, and obviously this is the time when people are darting families when they're kind of stuff heads and have other responsibilities and then the pay gap its drinking again in like late forties. Fifty is presumably when kids have grown up when they ve gone out of the house ended was a group as the others striking chart about How- and I think this is really shaped. My perspective, we note because when I was twenty three and I felt like thing Rico like. I actually wasn't that wrong things were probably pretty equal to me. and my male colleagues now that I'm We won I'm kind of like on this downward sad slope of this graph. It's become much striking. As I watched my friends of kids, you know what I think about having kids in the next few years. It become much more
breaking the obstacles in the way that you, when I wrote the hadn't, I didn't get the headline, but the headline of my peace than accurately. bribed it was, you know sorry, Hilary girls, already rule and indefinite felt true twentieth A doubling does not feel true at thirty one that that the same kind of playing is there something that I think matters about that. Isn't it like you connect that to research, the Matt you wrote recently that women really do govern differently and govern differently. It seems from the reset your time are connected to a bunch of these issues at their sensitized. Somebody Washington, so they just give them a higher priority, so so electing women around some of these concerns inches representational. But it's actually ends up addressing them more directly. Yeah did this was interesting.
Tumi, we know I'm you just look at voting right until, like women are more liberal than men in the aggregate. So if you work just like put a blindfold on and guess you know if it, if you just break, miss out by gender you'll see very different voting behaviour, but that's because their indifferent political parties But what I learned was interesting was that you can control for both partisan affiliation and you can. Control for district voting behaviour and you still find that men and women vote differently that just elected official, are constrained by party affiliation and their constrained by district politics, but they are not by any means. Like you know, in a straitjacket they have some autonomy and they can like gonna, do what they want to some extent an Women office holders pay more attention to issues related to child care, our family life, women's health. So
here are some things that are super duper, specifically women and then some other things that are just lose a little bit. order in in women's life. They also pay more it and Chin sub some research funds to the impact of policies on the neediest people broadly speaking, you would say that leads to more liberal policy. comes you you saw like the last time. It's a big but Glasgow. Just clarifying quota is what that is the takeaway that research it leads to more liberal policy outcomes or that holding liberalism constant. It leads to a different I or of policy, will that's what I was going to say. It's a little bit difficult to fully parts. I mean Think if you say on a high level congresses, we spend more time worry about child care policy that, like realistically, that probably means Congress is going to pass more liberal.
was but but the finding really is that they talk more about the issue and in principle I mean I've heard it ray. Is that one He's in the cost of day care is so expensive in Dc. Is that the industry is overregulated, I don't it's true, I haven't looked into it, but that is like a right of centre take on child care in an example. The kind of thing that a conservative woman politician might think to put on the agenda was concerned. male politician is maybe just not that interested in the whole subject, unlike if forced to talk about child care would probably send his staff be like What can we do on this and come back with the answer? Well, you know Change this rule that says the kids all have to be on the first floor. That's like grossly inflating costs Papa, but it really does like the agenda space matter, a lot as far As I know, the United States Congress has never taken up the question of whether chow
care facilities are regulated excessively stringently. There have been a lot of congressional republican Majority is who have put on the agenda. Lot of deregulatory initiatives, but like them, you know it seems like as a carcass. They are not that interested in this whole question, and that is very plausibly related to the fact that there are very few women in the world. begin cock as an end. One line of research shows that the impact of women in legislative bodies is multiplicative, fright that, as women reached critical mass, their male colleagues, also start spending more time addressing these kind of questions, presumably because to an extent you have to participate in the discussions that are happening. right when there's ten percent of the people who were more women than men can ignore them when it gets to. Like thirty forty percent, yet to come up with when something to say and that's you know it's a weird thing about a presidential election right, because the prisoners
person, so, like Hillary Clinton is obviously not going to say, statistically speaking, I more likely to be a tax break is actually just has her policy agenda, but it that's. The point is that it, it matters in the green, I think in matters of more than people, think I think it sounds like a sophisticated thing to say to be. Like luck, I'm in a vote for the person who I agree with the issues not based on a crew gender here, a stick Actually, most people are in fact voting on the basis of fairly crude heuristics in life and it would be weird for a person with a deeply liberal convictions to go vote for republican politician, because it happened to be a woman but at least in primary, is like this really does Matt seems like one of the most effective ways to get more attention paid to us certain suite of it. Whose is to try to put what women anything,
right. A generally does a line with a liberal set of issues, but not always one thing. It's been interesting. Looking at some of this is all about Congress on about the presidential, but some of the more recent research suggests kind of Last see, is you definitely did you see a lot of female legislators working together because they tend, I think, some that reflected just being more moderate in their views, now, you see kind of less of that is your like a lot of very conservative women in Congress like someone that guy think of like Johnny, for example, are Marcia Blackburn Juniors from Iowa Marsh Buckram from Tennessee, or to look very conservative women. I don't have a lot of common ground with democratic female legislators, but you do see that my kind of commitment to changing the issues space when you have this debate about plan parenthood and how should we regulate plan parent it was kind of it was a very female heavy. Committee having that debate and obviously with very little agreement about and of how we should regulate plan parenthood, but you Adam represent Blackburn
from Tennessee, chairing the committee and kind of pushing that discussion forward think it changes deftly agreed see in real time like how this changes the issue space, where the other things adventure today and which is a question I don't know the answer to be curious to hear what you guys think about it. So mad wrote this peace. a few- I think at the beginning of this week about the consequences of having a female president he's. I did some really interesting researcher. Research from a woman named Amelia show Walter who busy made the argument as Europe as you elect more women, it increases there sensation of women elsewhere, as you could expect electing us. Was it like electing a centre, leads to gains and a state legislatures governors and senators and then subsequent gains in in state legislatures to exploit the difference, We so one thing, I'm interested in that research that I just I haven't really come to take a firm conclusion is like a how how
Clinton run. Possibly Clinton presidency can, if fits into that, on the one hand you could see like the very happy tale of Clinton. urging other women to run sang like yes, it can be done or you can see women looking like the very specific example for presidential race, unlike what like bullshit Hillary, is had to deal with, like the things trumpets called her a kind of just this kind. ten barrage of sexism doesn't really happening. Congressional racist comments regions are more boring and like a lot less like kind of slinging so Turkey. Can you like nothing that happens and racist tromp happens in any But how do you know you ripen a because also part of it, like you can't really extrapolate, but how do you guys? Think of- but when you look at like that research, when you look at the election that happening right now, I'm I'm pretty torn on whether this
tells women like. Yes, it's a good idea to run for office or like, oh god, they stay away from like this terrible and ass. I have a strong suspicion that having a woman in office will spur more women to run for more things, because I think it's not just about you. No fear of facing certain kinds of attacks are or what not but seeing what the result of facing that lives right, so I mean, I think, there's like a real question. I mean I think nobody really knows, but what is the upshot of like Donald Trump tweeting gross things about Hillary Clinton right, isn't very plausible to me that the upshot of that Conservative, leaning women are going to be like demons, the to actually go vote for him and he's going to lose the election right and like people well, we'll see that that Hilary, like she's dead,
strong. She fought for us, and you know that the stuff she says and my winds and people will feel a greater level of confidence about d by slings and arrows of of outrageous fortune, the anything about about areas as president that I think is difficult to look at basin past research, because a real difference between Hillary Clinton and some other woman political figures like like mark or Prime Minister Thatcher, is that she has a universe circle that features a lot of women mean a many many many more. We don't. No, no, who she's gonna point to high level, but has positions, but you see her say: Department, Castro, characters, her her campaign staff and obviously there is a lot of difference between individuals and that, but not only his every president, we ve ever had been a man, but every mail president we ve ever had as that sleep male group of like cronies,
with a bomb I go bomb is actually a varied, salient example because he's in some ways appointed more women to high office than than any other president by farm in them, woman Supreme Court, just ass, a woman Federal Reserve chair, but these are primarily positions that, though, extraordinarily important do not of as their key role like sitting around a table with breakup alma hashing out what they're gonna do next wait. Unlike that kind of crew unit, the chief of the all his chiefs of staff have been men, for example, and you know the Democratic Party is primarily composed of women. It's actually a little bit remarkable that you would have liked after another after another, in a row of male chiefs of staff, fright and clinical change that not just like one woman at the top of the orange chart- many more women at the top of of orchards and we ve had before in the political world it's difficult to prove
but I just like I feel like that, will make a difference. It just show is in normalizes like expectations. For what does a treasury secretary look like what is called on court presidential? I grew up. Ok,. do isn't right, there was agreed. Actually, there is a very funny buzz buzz viewed, That, then, I saw recently- and it is about the recent G8 summit, and it is good that the joke you Mass was it embarrassingly. Seven of the eight people had all shown up wearing the same. Outfit, and and and Angela Merkel hadn't gotten the memo, and that's just because it's like you have a certain idea of like this is like the leader of a country looks like this right and it's like it's like laughable, but you can. You can broaden to make one other point on it. I think that we I have a lot of visibility into top level.
point means we have a lot of visibility, intellect officials and some you know we can. We can do counting there right. We can do the counting of House and Senate. We can do the counting a president's Life. Any law which is New York Times did a lot of great articles on the agenda mix of Obama's top staff and that it was at least at that time, quite a balanced, but one thing is really import, here about in terms of what all that looks like ten years from now fifteen years from now who is getting put in the key positions. There are low enough on the tone and pull that we actually don't really have a good way of tracking them. So. On the one hand, it is a case that a president who won Stu change agenda dynamics of his cabinet. Can you know a kind of scramble and refined of woman, Agriculture, Anderson, our women binder swollen exactly, but I think that something will be important about a Clinton presidency.
And would be important in, but not just a cleaning presidency, but also about female secretary of defence or female sector Treasury is what I think you need in order for these ranks to be full of women in a very natural. Ghana way In ten years or fifteen years is people who were pointing women, the key junior positions now and then King Gos women, their kind of trusted young advisers, and that is something that you can impose from up here very effectively, and it isn't something you track from outside very effectively, but I think those good evidence both like actual actual studies, engines in my anecdotal experience of, for instance, Hillary Clinton, State Department bet. You just see a lot more of that when women are in keeping. of Power, and so I the one thing that happens if you had a You know reasonably more unbroken line of
female heads of major cabinet agencies and so forth, thou it actually lead to a lot of pipeline help and that people ends up being pretty important. I mean the people who run for office, particularly at the house, and send a level are often people served at reasonably high levels in House and Senate offices before or serving government in some way, not always but often in the people. appointed to become the National Economic Council or headed the defence department? Are people who often rose up there Thanks of those are related agencies and other points, so I think, That summit is important. There is just having so the maiden low level ranks be a little more gender balance and, having folks to your point about the ways in which his becomes amounts later life having folks in key positions who are sensitive to what you need to do to quit? workplace. It works for women who have a family as opposed to her frustrate, by it until you have, even if it isn't anything overt, just a trick.
And of women who need to take care of their families and out growing rank of long time. Super senior AIDS, who are men who ve been, will able to offer that work on rats yet another agree with bad due to another thing, when I go to think about the governmental go back to this Claudia Golden Paper that had the graph we're talking earlier in one of her interesting findings is that you see the biggest pay gap in jobs that reward like very long and flexible hours. If you look at pharmacists, interesting, interestingly, have barely any pay gap because they're so inserted for one or another, like you there's no kind of skill that accrues. to being the person who stays the longest when your pharmacists, you just get paid for that extra hour, not Susie like very little pay gap among purposes, but then you see these Sharon's where there is a lot of reward given to those who you know are willing to be inflexible, are willing to work longer hours. It's not like for each hour. You get the same amount of
money that Edam. It's not like that in the end. The pay is proportional like a goes up. Much for your wages got much faster. If your, to work more hours end. These are kind of what government jobs have often demanded that when you think of people in the foot covering Obama care. The folks I knew in the White House were really giving up their entire lives as they were like trying to push this legislative effort through it'll, be I'm you'll, be interesting to see like how Une navigate jobs that have typically demanded, very inflexible hours and those inflexible hours feel very necessary to accomplish the things you want to accomplish. As president and as an administration and How you create a system that also lets women, who I mean just by biology you're, going to need more flexibility around their schedules, while pregnant having babies Zito, even if they're, not the primary caregiver it. I didn't
part. I think it too hard challenging it's our challenge for employers out other governments, it'll be a hard challenge for a Clinton and but for a possible Clinton administration. The way to eat also does strike me as an example of the kind of thing where the identity of the leaders, man, That is why did like Hilary herself is like well past, that phase in her life, but she I really understands the nature of the problem. don't think that means she's going to be able to come in and be like harm inherent like work. Family Conflict limit values like our way, but he does matter right at the margin, if, like the president and the chief of staff,
and several other like senior policymakers are themselves and just like women, but mothers who have like IX variance with personal experience with these problems and close friends and confidence, also due to be a little bit more mindful and alive a bit more creative you'll, because it the nature of like hard problem swayed is one way you can react to. It is be like, dare thats a hard problem like ledges bracket that my move on ride like we're, we're looking for the low hanging fruit here, where you can think about, is like this is like one of the most profound change just society faces so we're going to try to like Chippeway right and it strikes me as just much more likely that President Hillary Clinton will try to chip away at that in the executive office of the President, then Barack Obama or Bernie Sanders would, unlike
that's not based on like a white paper, even more Donald Trump yeah right, even Donald Trump he's a legendary sense, I would in practice offers a hard issue, but also a really hard issue, because, like especially when you're in the middle of a big legislative pusher there really is a value to being able to work, longer hours. I don't it's, I'm cool is to see like how much leadership, What the margin is where you can effect that, unlike how, as commander in chief music. Aware of these issues like how you balanced them against your own legislative agenda, it's it's a hard issue. I would put in It's about time. I've been obviously it but in public debts
I really do think that, like that's, why, like identity matters rank as if there was an obvious fix right, if it was like what we need is to listen to the American Association of University women and their proposal to issue executive order, seven mandating that, like everyone, doesn't have this problem, then things like a bomb do it ran like women's groups, would lean on him and like even if they like, cost eleven billion dollars. A you know like they would go, get it done, but like because things that are really hard and dont like have an obvious answer. Take a level of personal commitment that that other things down that executive order, seven cents began to pass that Washington administration and has the ceremonies the ceremonies in israeli instinct. Thank you. This van another fun reads like you, too, are produced. A few Shapiro to my colleagues are Clifton glacis weeds.
VOX dot, com and panoply production units.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-14.