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A conversation about anti-Semitism


Matt, Dara and Jane talk about the rise in anti-Semitic violence aimed at Hassidic communities, and what the political implications may be. 

Related reading:

"The conspiracy theories behind the anti-Semitic violence in New York" Jane Coaston, Vox


Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox

Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica

Jane Coaston (@cjane87), Senior politics reporter, Vox

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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specificity below one hundred other sort of the Medes on me, but I guess network I met her place, has joined today by Jane Austen public as dare lend the usual crew scraped. See you all. So we can talk about the fun and lifting subject of anti semitic violence, of which there has been a number of recent incidents, in the New York City area I am jewish enough and aware enough of the news to have like seeing this happening and have the opinion that it was bad extra feelings about my Hanukkah menorah this this past holidays. But I I didn't
actually know that much about what was happening until I read peace, Jane wrote and it's weirder than I had realized yeah. I think it's important. We were just talking about how it's important to put the rise of antisemitic hate crimes, crimes generally against Orthodox Jews and hasidic Jews, worst noting that should be put in context, because a couple of members of Congress have put this into the breakdown of law and order or cities. It's not part of a breakdown of law to order or cities violent crime in city and and other major cities is down. Crimes against jewish people is up and so I think that in time this is something distinct from you, and I think that, as I think that Well, I'm not gonna speak format here, but I personally am probably going to say a lot of things that may or may not be representative of all Jews in America in this episode, but it see
to me that the specter of anti semitic violence- that is, you know, been a more real presence in the kind of like mental landscape that American currently the risks, american Jews have felt there under has been for the most part, white nationalism, This is a distinct phenomenon from that and one that has the cave scrambles the politics of that, an interesting because it just in groups of Jews, guys served out so daring. I and probably most jewish weeds listeners are from the more secular to reform side of American Jewishness. Have more liberal politics had a lot of concern about White Nationalist, Anti Semitism, a lot of sort of personal affiliation with the tree of life since and the dynamic around that, but we are talking about attacks, had room perpetrated against orthodox and hasidic drains, nor your who
cells tend to be more much more politically. Conservative also are more outwardly visibly identify as jewish through their garb and have, in this case, been targeted, a distinct tardy, it specifically, but also target by totally different group of people, and seems to be mean. One thing I think it's important get is that lake there isn't some sort of better anti semitic violence. White nationalist violence is not superior to anti semitic. Violence committed by people of color. There's not like a this is the violence that we're into the people who lose out real time, no matter where this is happening. Art jewish people pretend I think it's important to clarify. Also that the u I've written before in a lot of people, talked about how Anti Semitism tends to work as a conspiracy theory and some of the conspiracy theories about jewish peoples,
typically hasidic jewish people and crowd heights in areas of New York are very specific and some ways to those areas better, just as harmful and just as you, almost more Alec as one of the great replacement can anti semitic conspiracy theories each year from white nationalists, who told us through the what's that, what's the deal the number of anti semitic attacks generally aimed at hasidic. An orthodox juice has been going up for the last year and if you read tablet ORF
or word at a host of other jewish publications, you would see this has been a topic of a great deal of discussion among specifically Orthodox choose, but not in the wider world, because it's not white national. It's not easier to be like okay. This is going to happen to to think that you're. One of the things also is that the concern of white nationalist violence is you that's an easy one for people to kind of Paris out of why this is happening and what we could potentially do about it, but when it is one people you hasidic Jews, who are being targeted and its there being targeted by people of color. I think that that, for a lot people people back away from that people are much more loath to get into discussions of why that's taking place, and so you seen alive
of the discussions about the rising attacks on jewish people, attacks on synagogues and these attacks have been incredibly brazen. There is a will. There is a mass shooting in Jersey City that could have gone horrifying, Lou, even we're horrifying than I would actually happen because of the amount of explosives that the pair behind the attack appeared to have on them. There have been attacks on people wearing kippers, getting hit in the head with bricks. People being just attacked in Reed's in parts of New York and in suburban New York. This has come about you. It's been much less specifically violent, but the rhetoric about hasidic Jews has been deeply. Harmful and you're getting it from both. The republican party in areas of New York were describing hasidic unorthodox, chooses an invasive force and from Democrats on sit new on councils in Jersey City, who are basically,
like your essentially blaming jewish people for the violence that jewish people are encountering and you. I think that, when I spoke to tablet. Magazines Armand rose and you don't know the reason. Why has taken a long time for people outside of these circles to talk about? This is because all these attacks were against people from her ready orthodox communities who are seen as seeing as being outside of the mainstream their seen as being not apart. You they're, not quote you secular, Jews or they're, not kind of people who are considered to be a part of the fabric of New York, which couldn't be further from the truth, but at the same time their very much is a sense of ill could have a permissive attitude of harassment or how people talk about the orthodox community. The idea that you they're, trying to you plot a takeover of different counties and pose a danger, I'm quoting from a video posted by the Rockland colleague Republican Party, saying that area already Jews pose a danger to our.
Homes are families are schools. Are communities are utter our way of life and you you're, seeing as I mentioned, a member jersey, City Board of Education Trusty, who talked about YO jewish brutes of the jewish community, who were trying to buy the homes of people of color, and so there is a sense of like this a harassment, that's taking place and then the people who are being harassed are being blamed for their own harassment in a way that seems nasm to me, but it's it's happening across the political spectrum and so I tried slight distinction made khazar, so one thing that the issue with these sort of some of these were publicans and that in the excerpts right, this is fundamentally as so much in life is a zoning.
Issue, which is that you know how ready communities have large numbers of children and consequently, they have a consistently pro development politics and a sort of old fashioned, fairly tightly controlled political machine dynamics, and so they are very effective in places where many of them live in getting zoning adjustments made that allow for more house building, which is anyone who has ever listen, me in any form knows. I agree with that, but is frequently opposed by other people. So this and becomes a weird thing we're like I would say it is not a conspiracy theory to believe that if a large number of heredity people move into your town, there will be a subsequent move on there. To try to get zoning laws made more permissive for them to build large densely, packed houses.
The corollary that, because, because of the average size of any family family, you know you're a typical, typical, affluent urban family that the long term political demographics of that area could change accordingly, yes, and for the whole rhetoric of every zoning fight everywhere, like it will change the character of the neighborhood if it becomes a large already neighborhood. Now I don't think that is bad, but it's not Lou I would suggest that it gets very difficult because you're talking about You know a because a eddies laid over this idea that the character of the neighborhood is changed by having a group that is visually, distinct and very self contained. The also the whole lake long stay
in terms of anti Semitism only I just I just would say that as someone who has followed like any zoning fight in any american town on any subject, but does this huge battle and a chunk of western Massachusetts that has nothing at all to do with Jews, but just developer wants to build, as he has his right under Massachusetts. What about housing law on apartment building and there's like incredible paranoia? Stop the western monster. You know Bob up so anyway, I would just say I think the like Anti Herei nimbys are bad people and they are in the wrong. Here, but I think that, like the fundamental dynamic at work, there is like the timeless nimby dynamic.
Which is a little different from like that. The black hebrew Israelites, yes, have a specific gonna, get like a very specific view here. Yet live what what is so? It's complicated some your eyes, black Hebrews rights; they have their it's kind of an a centre of black keepers rights and there is also the fringes and the fringes are tend to be the more extreme. But a lot of this goes back to a conspiracy theory and an untruth out should say, which is that- and this is its every time you kind of describe conspiracy, theory out loud, there's a sense of like. I can't believe I have to make this clear, but at night to ninety one nation of Islam as a Louis Spherical, put out a book in, the secret relationship between blacks and Jews and which fair icon argues that jewish people were the real force behind the slave trade and in a later volume, ultimately, behind the rise of the coup cloaks clan,
Pretty anti medicate group. But this is a long and historic and storied relationship between African Americans, jewish Americans throughout the civil rights movement by it s Henry Louis Gates noted in a night's. Ninety two junior attends article one, which he talks about this book as being Roma, sophisticated instances of hate literature yet compiled the idea of cut fermenting ethnic isolationism of driving people apart to make people who you like, fair cod and other stronger within these communities, has been, as the efforts have proven incredibly effective. In some areas, and so these conspiracy theories- and I did a little bit of looking
and while I was writing this peace and the degree to which you, obviously you can't really judge real how popular or widely held something is based on how widely held it is on the internet, because the internet is real but its fungible, but the degree to which some of you, the your when people have been doing interviews in Jersey, city and elsewhere after these attacks.
Acts that young people are talking about, Cyrillic well, you're, the attacks are terrible, but it doesn't get out YO, YO, jewish people being behind this conspiracy theory behind this conspiracy theory, and so I think it's important that you there is. No. I ain't you I've seen this and a cup of other pieces written on the subject of the idea that you of this is a complex relationships between African Americans in jewish people. Make hitting people over the head with hammers is not complex. That's on a complex yo hate crimes are not a complex relationship. What's happened here is that conspiracy theories that are just as virulent and dangerous as the same conspiracy theories and hold that like Drew's control the government are have taken hold in some
kids of communities in New York and elsewhere, and they ve been furthered by people for their own political interests and you there has been a lot of discussion about specifically Blackie, whereas riots or some of these specific groups, but it doesn't have to come with membership in a group to be holding these views. To believe
that jewish people are somehow the Earl white person and are somehow you they are responsible for white racism and that they are secretly you in. It actually goes back to some of the conspiracy theories we ve talked about. We talk by George Soros that one of the kind of traditional anti semitic troops is not that jewish Americans, unlike african Americans, are sub human. It's that their secretly in charge of everything, and so the same kind of idea that has it George Soros, is secretly getting immigrants into United States to subvert whiteness is cut of the same idea that jewish people are secretly taking homes from African Americans to uphold whiteness and somehow jewish people are both Yo R, the enemy and also
the ultimate superpower in this entire conspiratorial rendering. But I think it's also when we're talking about nimbyism or talking about the specifics of these challenges are happening in communities in counties in New York and elsewhere. You NIMBY Ism has never let anyone to take them machete to anyone- and that's That'S- what's happened here in several cases, and I think there is a whole dust up at national review about this kind of this idea of like. I think that when people talk about hate crimes see this occasionally. I remember when Matthew Shepherd was murdered in nine ninety eight, an over some of the writings about it, we're just kind of like well, you know, like obviously that's too rebel. But maybe this is a moment where we should recognize. It may be gay rights like it's not their time yet and, unlike is that what you're getting from this is that
you're getting like whoa whoa it somehow. The gay persons fault that day were strung up on a fence and left to die, and I think that is really important to say here that, like it is Whatever is happening, there's no housing crisis. That is an adequate explanation or reason for people getting that over the head with bricks for outwardly expressing the religious beliefs. So they think a lot of this touches in various ways. On the kind of oral question of lake, the the flip way to put this is argues actually white, but the less likely to put it is look are cut our you're, an ethnic group that has defined ourselves for thousands of years as being a minority wherever we are bracket, the entire Israel thing for a second, because, frankly, a lot of this. The dynamics it's going on here much older than the state of Israel have persisted despite anode, despite its creation and-
in that there are, you know not every minority is necessarily a dispossessed minority, but many of them are, and so, when you look at in a Jew the community. Are you looking at them as kind of a model minority that has managed to succeed that his may be taken more than its share of the resources or you look? at them, as you know, a people who have constant had to defend themselves against not being in owed not being the norm, and that also deals with a different question of kind of her communities, because I think a lot of people who have been raised in you know secular ploy, Lest America in the last few generations, understand region as an individual right like whether or not it's a matter of whether you think if it is a matter of what do you believe, what is your faith or whether you're thinking of it is? What is your level of observer that's an individual choice and it doesn't necessarily prevent you from interacting with other people, other faiths and other levels of observance, the horizon
interpretation has been that its very important. You know it's it's it's a closer analogue, like an army, than anything else, and so far as the idea that it's very important to be hyper visibly and to remain connected to each other and hold yourself apart from the rest of the world as much as people is a straw anode? That's that's, certainly one way to think about how do we persist as a jewish people? You know in a world where very few people are like us, but it mean that is a little bit tricky for secular Jews. A because many of us aren't people who, in an ultra orthodox interpretation, would even count is who s right and who are you know not seen in it and and who we know? Wouldn't necessarily it's it's hard to express it with a group that you know wouldn't necessarily express solidarity with you if the tables are turned- and I think that makes it difficult both in the kind of intra jewish politics of what do we do with this as Jews
and to understand that, when we're talking about the history of black jewish relations is definitely the kind of unfortunately, lost her minimized history of Lake Black Jack, lions in the civil rights movement. But it's also important to recognize that the people who you know it wasn't it wasn't not it's not like the ultra orthodox ones. The ones were standing there that they ve had a notion of how to protect yourself as a community. That is very different from that and so the The kind of solidarity impulses are running at cross purposes to each other. Yet, let's break in and talk about, partisan politics. If the last year's, how taught anything it's that we don't what will happen next, but there's One thing we can all be sure of the only future is one we can all share and the charge in building that future his mercy corps,
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over the, like discursive meaning of Anti Semitism in America today, right, whereas to jewish Americans, whose sympathies are generally more on the left, and these are people who typically are less observant. Typically less hawkish on Israel. Related matters typically vote for Democrats right. It is like obvious that the problem of Anti Semitism in America is that you have a rising tide of white nationalist groups, sort of general theme that racism and Stick nationalism is bad for the Jew is, and so, even though Donald Trump has this
son in law and daughter. He is, in fact a very threatening figure right, a symbolic menace to the Jews, who is trying to define american identity and more blood and soil manner, and that this is no part of an alarming trajectory throughout the world. And then you can talk about Victor Orbit. You can talk about figures on the european, far right and like how this is all bad. These ranked wishing all those authorities more productive, wait a bit. It there's also, I think, an extent to which the master narrative of the Holocaust, is very, very, very relevant to twenty four century jewish identity. And so there is a certain extent to which anything that moves in that direction.
Lead some Jews to go? We know how this ends. We are inevitably victims here, just based on that, rather than based on any kind of real world analog and I'd rather occur in twenty one ST century, and then you have this contrary narrative, which is that no, the threat to Jews in America and in the world comes from the left that it is less wing groups who express sort of limitless solidarity with palestinian nationalism, no matter how violent it becomes. It's the left that is trying to incorporate Muslims into its political coalition, both in the United States and in Europe, and that that involves taking a soft line and the most exe dream anti jewish settlements that are out there, its ill Hon Omar, who is kind of dancing around with the so called anti semitic tropes its russian play, but who is just expressing incredibly vehement hostility to to Israel and who israeli policy and
its or ITALY, Germany, carbon who, in the service of class politics, says things about capitalists that have generally been recognised as Anti semitic, tropes and like? How do you deal with the you know? How do you deal with it sergeant socialism, when anti capitalist and anti jewish politics have historically been entered and its its technical Mallory and the women's Marge and Louis Fair can, and here the flip right. The the Jared in advance of this narrative is Bernie Sanders right right, who is jewish, but is also at the intersection of all these left wing trends that more conservative american Jews. Don't like and then one. If your me, you want to say against that, like no look like the potential first, jewish president can't be the leading avatar of Anti Semitism in Latin America. You have. These contrary takes right. David Hasani wrote in December in national review on this piece of
it goes through the sort of list of second order associations, but I would say like that, the thesis is fundamentally that Sanders is not actually jewish is, as you know, he honeymoon- did Moscow, not Jerusalem, and it talks about Trotzky mates. The revolutions in the Brownstein pay the bills that was the rejoinder of mosque, as chief rabbi after russian Revolution idly and Trotzky rebuffed. His request for assistance explained that he was not a Jew, but rather an international man of socialism. Right and I think that the view that you see it in that world is that look like if you, if you do what Sanders has done right and you for both like religious observance and israeli nationalism as concepts, and you affiliate yourself with a global secularists, socialist ideology. Exactly is there was saying that you have put yourself outside the circle of solidarity is. Is that view
and so some of that is like we don't need to protect. You write a guy like George Soros, when you are targeted for certain kinds. Of tribes. But it also means that you don't get to wield jewish identity as a defence got the Monday night. Here, of course, is that lake in the american context- yes there, definitely lake. I think there are two very important points we made here. One. Is that the Hyper visibility of heredity communities does not map onto other juice like I've. Yes, there is, as I think that there is a certain concern among more secular as you like. Oh can I wear a star of David in public. Oh, can I wear a keeper on my way to the Senate arrogantly there's a spectrum there, but very few things that the average non Orthodox Jew is going to do in public are going to be, as obviously and and permanent, a marker of Jewishness. As what already like, as what already communities go through every
and so the idea that you're going to be randomly targeted for a hate crime, because you're wearing a star of David around your neck, is now in our societies of jewelry, and we have right now the Everything going on here, though, is that well, if the idea that. Bernie Sanders isn't meaningfully jewish because he has personally issue religious observance me. Sense on certain logical level is also true that, frankly, a lot the country still associates New York stereotypes with jewish stereotypes. I say this as somebody who, like grew up to add in a grew up in the middle asked to a father who had ever know who had spent decades in New York as a Jew in the extent to which, after three years in Cincinnati he's regarded as in that, like as a new Yorker, cannot be super disentangled from the fact that he is very visibly jewish. So the aid here that Bernie Sanders is like has six
successfully in inoculated himself against any suppose. It anti semitic violence because he's not doing the things that people hate juice for doesn't really track. Look I'd like to to me I mean, I almost feel the opposite of this right. That, like the already community, is an interesting phenomenon but is like not actually participating in, like Britain, normal people, s, he ate with jewish culture in America, right like, I think, like that, what you're no Woody Allen movies about, like her ready, suburban I was thinking about there isn't very various, however, the scene in any hall where he is concerned. That's how her feet Willie Seas and right. That's always. The thing in the back of the head of secular jus ran right, that we are going to be associated with them, even though they wouldn't want to be associated with us, and there are very heavy irony quotes going on here. I know that the progress not a visual medium but lay
it's got, an episode with no charts and you go in with air glue. Air quotes. Look it's an episode, Jews, of course, we're gonna have a lot of irony letters. I think that though it's important recognised, because I think that there has been the sense of Lake- and you see this on the on the right and on the left of kind of like no are Anti Semitism makes sense. Far advanced Semitism is based as like. None at all hours is reasonable are address like even the argument that icy, occasionally from conservatives of like. Why do you still vote for Democrats like this idea like they need to get off the jewish, democratic plantation of sorts and start thinking towards their own? Chris and this idea of being kind of jewish in name only or like that? You're? Not do you if you do not hold these particular political positions or these particular things. You're, not the right kind of jewish purse right. This is an inherent exhibits. Real have gotten really talk yet because I had but then also on those on the left. You see the kind of this idea of like well, you know, we know
Anti Semitism looks like and it all it looks like Richard Spencer and that's it. So the people you of course screaming at people in in the UK to go back to. It Like no, that's not anti Semitism we're defending you from the real anti Semites were over there and it's. Either Anti Semitism is better or more helpful or less dangerous. There is, it said. I think that there is a sense that like if we can just keep going back and forth in the world's most stupid tennis match over whose Anti Semitism is reasonable, or reasons that you will find a solution to this problem. At the same time, like the people who are being subject two interests? Embedded violence have been largely excised. From this conversation I mean this is an orthodox and her ready jewish people you're. The folks who I talk to from my peace are very much of the senses like there Where then, a lot of people are talking about them or talking about where and how many children they have under school districts and their vaccination policy is, and there we
where they want to move and whether or not that you're what their practices are. But people are not talking to them, they're kind of just being forced upon different political groups and not allowed to express you not allowed to talk about what it's like to be hard, for again religious practice. But you really see in the Trump era right a divide among Jews between a sort of consociation, AL and individualistic concepts of jewish interests. Right so that, in that, in the conciliation of you write, Jews, just are a minority in America right and we're gonna hafta suck it up a deal with, but we have Israel as an exit option and supporting Israel is very important right because, like fundamentally outside of Israel,
always going to be put upon minority right and that this is parallel to Jane is, as you ve Tundra, frequently the sort of black conservative re ideology right. That, like you, give up on assimilation and true equality right, but you ask for the special special rights as a religious community, so you are naturally aligned with bakeries that dont want to serve same sex marriages. Things like that is to say, look weary, religious community defined by religious observance. All religious communities get certain corporate rights that we will demand and we have a state like located swear, but that is allied with the United States and that we back right. Then you have, of course, the fact that many of the docks choose do not don't bag Israel, but with a body but like like the Amish re, who also generally vote Republican right and sometimes I think, like liberals get confused by that is like how. Why would a minority group too
It's a religiously defined commute the oriented group with a corporate identity. Then you have the other view, Reverend the like business it in the lake collected recollected. Then you have like jewish liberation as individualism which has left This is America, like everybody can do whatever they want right like we're all free and equal here, and we believe in globalism, and we believe in international human rights norms and you see. Somebody somebody complain on television that you're not allowed to say merry. Christmas anymore is like not a brick to your head, but that is viewed. Food like individualism minded Jews as like very threatening right that it is this like effort to define american identity as fundamentally christian and to take offense like banal efforts to be more inclusive. When you look at that, you like like what is this like? How could these people be like
so apt up about Israel that they're like throwing in with this Christian many swayed that year, like going with these evangelical preachers and being like I'm going to turn over the judiciary, to you guys right and that's a very bad because its pursuing a liberal integration, IST Dream and that's the version of jewish identity in the version of black identity. That was the foundation of the Civil Rights Movement Alliance right. It is a liberal integration EST claim in which, like we are going to like all day, but just a Martin Luther king, I recently and like all the stuff in his speeches right like that very much- speaks to a segment of the jewish community, as well as to the black community, because it's about the idea that we can, I like on a human level like I'll, be equal rights, but that's different, rather than its notion of difference as something that is inherent, but necessarily defining appeals, a lot to people who want to claim you
identity and don't necessarily want to follow all six hundred and thirteen of the commandments, commandments and Torah because we're people- people yeah, I think, The other thing going on here is just there's a broader conflict between left and right, very long standing as to what counts as I'd like what counts as violence. What counts as like an abuse of power that we should be worried about, and the left generally is much more inclined to think about things like struck. RO, violence and kids? You know show concern about the ology, not because it's like inherently bigoted, but because its being expressed by people in power. The idea that there is no things reverse racism is like a very important. No, it's kind of a very important key to this kind of thinking, the problem is not what's in your head. The problem is how what's in your head, gets expressed through the broader world, so that kind of what need to be concerned about is what the dominant force thinks of us is know. It does
direct your attention in particular ways, whereas the right is generally, the opinion that? No you don't call things that? Are you don't coffins? Violence that aren't violence? Actual violence is violence, and so there, my necessarily be more attention paid to people getting bricks thrown at them. Then too, you know few concerns about whether Juicer still considered to be core, and you know Americans at their core. I think that. No usually these arguments play out when there is an actual literal spate of violence going on, and so it be very easy for the left to ignore the You know like it's one, to say no, no other things can be violence to re. But when we're talking about actual yet- and I think in a fundamentally we take- we keep toddling among different types of anti Semitism and different types of lake. You know of a fears
that different types of Jews have, because it freely hard to talk about the unified phenomenon. Like you have to go into fairly, history. Lessons and talk about the relationship between anti usury laws and the rights the jewish capital est too really understand just how much of these are just just how much of these views types of anti Semitism really do have the same origin, because they're being expressed by people who don't have any kind of intellectual contact with each other in the twenty first century, so I'm not even sure how useful it is to think about them as the same phenomenon other than that as you coming back to jail like Joe these- are the victims at it. So this has to start from the premise of how do we protect the people who are being fit right? And I think that there is also a sense. I think you- and I have encountered this by writing about this law- is that there is a sense of self protective ness on both sides again about trying to make you my anti Semitism
make sense- and I remember you back and twenty fifteen during one of the republican debates and culture tweeted, how many fucking Jews to these people think there are in the United States because she was like we talk way too much about Israel like the whole thing. No, it's almost like basically tweeting and saying things that, for you had she been of a different political stripe. People may have construed as being anti semitic there. She got defences from some people on the right is being like. Well, you she's she's a Republican and she's good on Israel. So it's ok this time and you see the same thing on some folks in the left, where even bring up the fact that Louis
Com is insane and a rabid, anti Semite is like none at all, but his anti Semitism comes from things that make sense to us and it just. I think, it's important to be a kill, the people who were being victimized here or jewish Americans, particularly people who are orthodox jewish Americans and they are being victimize across the political spectrum by conspiracy theories that don't make any sense it anyway, and I think that its support that, like it's, not a tennis ball, that we can keep packet sing back and forth. It's a really scourge of actual lived violence is taking place here, but I do think that there is a unifying element right to the disparate Anti Semitism means of the modern world right, which is the idea that a Trans national ethnic community is fundamentally suspect.
Yet right like like by its nature, right and so like especially you know in, and that has a different valence when it's a transnational community that doesn't have a nominal homeland verses, one that shows and you know we don't have a Roma community in the United States. There is a substantial one, so like Anti Roma prejudice is not a real phenomenon in american life, but in east in Central Europe where jewish and Roma communities you stay. Co occur Very similar, guenaud hostility exists. Big it's a similar phenomenon of people who are declining to fit into a sort of like modernist concept of how the world should be arranged straight and then in the jewish case. You have, I mean people right hot books, about medieval antidote, and how it relates to modern anti Semitism things like that. But it is, you know, in Amerika we-
Sort of conflicting at nationalism, isms, so that Louis fact is sort of like the opposite, quote, unquote of like a NEO Nazi or a white nationalist, but there's obviously a similar like real just coming from different right. You know it and if you get theirs, they think that that something that could stranger because again we are one of the difficult things about talking about politics. Is that the left right dichotomy is very helpful, but it's also frequently very wrong and then people your, but then people buy into it like no I've been thinking a lot about the fact that Louis Fair Con, as you close to people in the Democratic Party and Louis Fabric, also believes that Jews made me gay and, like I want the explanation of how that fits into there. The other Mascus Democrats are the other thing. That's useful here is like you know, maybe slightly small pointed out like I think I think even Richard Spencer has said, that lake- that there is
certain affinity between white and black nationalist, because they both want to just live separately and peacefully. In the idea that separatism- I don't- I don't wanna- leave Richard Spencer about that now. I think they like a but I, but I think that the idea that separatism can be a deacon flexible thing is something that a lot of people in their heart of hearts actually believe it's at the root of a lot of like residential self. Several segregation right. But exactly what we're seeing right now with her eddying is. It shows exactly how wrong that is right, because even a group that wants to keep to itself that isn't necessarily trying to evangelize or impose on any one else: simple by its nature of kind of want. To live in it of of. Wanting to live in a society is going deposed threats to other people. No matter how much it you know it's trying to keep to itself, and
Pluralism isn't really something you opt into, and it's not necessarily something you can opt out of either, and so thinking about separatists as people who are kind of sending themselves from the social contract is exactly what leads us to this kind of. Well, they brought it upon themselves. Saint break. Do white paper if you're, having trouble meeting your goals focusing at work. If you have feeling stressed you're having trouble sleeping better help is here, for you It is self help class and sought a crisis line. Better help is sick here online professional counselling with real licence, their best to have the tools to help you feel better is fill out. A quest near about how you doing and better Hubble match you with your own licence, therapist under forty eight hours, no more awkward, therapist waiting rooms, no more limitations and the type of experts in the area and in between weekly appointments. If you need some more guidance, you can send free. Unlimited messages to council will get back to you with timely thoughtful answers. If the matter, the therapists doesn't feel just right, better help will quickly help you find a new one for free,
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because it's important as because I thought it was kind of a funny thing to study, but Daniel Hammer Mesh Robert Crosnow and Rachel Gordon wrote. Oh, youth and beauty children's looks and children's cognitive development, so what they did was they looked at a couple: different sort of cohort studies of children as they went through school and sort of what grades they got. How long they stayed in growth and things like that, a proxy for four cognitive development, and they also used video clips and and pictures of these kids, and they had panels of undergraduates rate how good looking they are, found that there is a strong Carl Sean between kids, who are rated as attractive and kids, who do well in school and kids, who go into school longer and then they try to explore a bunch of different reasons. Sort of why that might be, and they find it sort of most of the stuff. You might think His kind of in their like the teachers say that they like the better looking kids more, but that doesn't fully
count forty, it actually accounts for only a small share of it. They find them you know moms, of the better. Looking kids on average say that they are treated a little bit better by other children, but again it small red. So there's a sort of unexplained residual here, where the better looking children do better in school, and they don't really know why the eight might just be oh correlated genetic material, early childhood nutrition know gamma ray is they give you a cute face also help your brain. Could be some unknown third instrument right where people you know they can't control. For everything right, but so there is some kind of dark matter out there, which is causing the better looking kids to do better in Who are better looking at least as raided by a convenient sample of cost
students. Guy right. Well, I guess, is how we do a rating system that they met day. The methodology is using thin slices of video, approximately seventy ten seconds of duration faces on the shot focused on the child's face in body and then get that I have several more question is a very real or imagined, but three, three professors at quality Universe saying what we d hit. It's a bunch of college students till I get old. Video comes a five year olds and tell us which ones are the key right so add some comparative work: or whether Uk Dataset, where it's the teachers? are being asked to write the attractiveness of children which, like they treat as a somewhat promised variable and I actually think as much more relevant, because whether kid Zuzu, whether undergrad you are We the same age as the kids in the video
are now think that those people are attractive is not nearly as relevant as whether as a child, you seem attractive to the relevant, authoritative adults in your life, like anybody whose read the Elinor for anti neapolitan quartet can understand that, like the kinds of children who appealed to adults and the kinds of children who appeal to other children can be very, very different or anyone who has ever been the kid who it's a long well with adult. Oh my gosh, I was that kid and it went just how you probably think it did so number. There is, but they doing this comparative data at least show relatively similar results. So it's not exactly like we're dealing with two totally different populations of kids here, but you know it is important to note that, like we're not talking about a huge effect here, the.
This is coming from a literature that has one of the streams of literature feeding into this started with. Well. To what extent can we isolate performance as a function of teacher quality, and the answer to that has been not a top and the effect here of of good looking, this is lower than the effect of having a really good teacher, so we're kind of turn around the edges here, a little bed. They do note like repeatedly in this paper that the really really Persistent strong correlations? Are you know parental income and ethnic group, and that kind of thing that bits that we are looking at? Something that you know it's it's interesting in so far as its dark matter, but it's not the difference between a successful at an unsuccessful educational careers, whether your super cheap right, I think,
relevance is less actually to the educational literature than to the literature on the economic for words to being good. Looking right, which is that, like we have studies that show that better working people earn more money, and one thing that this is showing is that, like that, is partially explicable in terms of better looking people doing better and school at having more years of of educational attainment. I mean. There's I get this parallel thing right where, if you, if you instrument like height and earning Scrite, you'll, see that tall man earn more money than shorter men, which is like an interesting fact, and can we be able to spend our all kinds of takes about gonna like pipe bias and prejudice? And things like that? It turns out that when you control for a bunch of things, including export performance as economic back
Did that that tends to go away right and then it's just a sort of coincidence that taller people also have, like other background characteristics, that you would associate with earning more money, which is different from a world in which we are finding that employers show like large bias. In favour pain, tall people more right, so you're, seeing a somewhat similar thing here. If you, if you learn that, like kids, who did well in school, have better jobs like that's, not that surprising, where it's like better looking. People are getting paid board that that sounds like an employment discrimination story. Right I mean the unfortunate thing here is. There is, even though they are controlling for like parental income, and all of that there is a question here about. To what extent is this just a nutrition thing. They are in the UK data exempting children whose teachers described them as unkempt or dirty from the dataset, because it doesn't somehow reflect on their looks, looks
like? It seems to me that that actually is exactly the way in which a teacher would respond to students looks like either they look the dread and like their not being well cared for, or they look like in their family, are investing some time in their appearance, so it would be interesting to know how much of this is just a reflection of. Ok. Are you coming from a family that puts an emphasis? on presentation on manners. It is feeding. You well enough that you can then like have met the cognitive capacity, or are you being You know lightly neglected in ways that might be partially but not wholly explicable by social social class and might show an interesting ways, even beyond how much money your parents are making can spend,
The other interesting thing here is that they show that when you look at really little kids, boys and girls are rated equally and they say that when you look at adults, men and women are rated about equally, but that, like old kids are like fifteen year olds, the average boy was at the thirty nine. Percent tile and girl at the sixty five percent higher language, which also speaks to the extent to which this is about socialization, how right like, even even in the twenty first century world, where I think very our higher expectations on mended to attend to their appeal, and says that has not historian headlines. Trickle. Now is a fifteen year old boy among us and if you're a fifteen year old boy listener, I am with you stay strong are at.
Okay, thanks, guys, that's not normally, where we end up with the weeds, but you know. Hopefully we can branch out: apologies for solidarity, man, a branch out into new things, thanks as always odd to everybody out there. Listening thanks to Malachi Brodus, our engineer, Jackson, Beer felt a producer, and then we put me back on Friday.
Transcript generated on 2021-05-21.