Sarah, Ezra, and Matt talk about the real causes of mass incarceration, Trump's move to roll back contraceptive coverage, and the mysterious world of high-end credit cards.Links!German Lopez’s piece about John Pfaff’s “Locked in” Mark A.R. Kleiman, Angela Hawken, and Ross Halperin on graduated reentry as prison reform.Today’s white paper, "Status Goods: Experimental Evidence from Platinum Credit Cards" Our Weeds in the Wild Episode about birth control Ezra Klein’s conversation with Chris Hayes about “A Colony in a Nation” Jon Bois excellent video, The Dumbest Boy in the WorldBooks!"Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration" by John Pfaff"The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander"A Colony in a Nation" by Chris Hayes
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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is here with us? There cliff and as recline great have the whole gang here. Instant third episode in one way, yeah, it's so yeah lots of we
chemicals, although this gets into the best thread ever on the internet. About how many days or in a week have you ever see methods
the greatest video ever created is by John boys with an explanation in the box media family. I think it's called the if it is called the stupidest boy in the world and
should go watch it. It is a narrative imitation of the single greatest forum thread in history, nothing we
the weeds is as good as it, but Ariel Sharon's linking our Facebook groups, have you not arrange lines? You should go ahead it maybe later this summer we can talk about the french Revolutionary Calendar in which they live
to solve this odd number of days in the week problem, but until
that you might want to hide yourself over with Todd Vander, Worth's podcast. I think your interesting
He says on each week with you know, interesting, fastening figures from from pop culture, and it's it's a break from you know as well as Jim Video nonsense
and whatever else from corruption,
twitter jerks within a jerk.
The tens morning on the weeds. It's as if I wanted to talk about an odyssey, so we're gonna. We're gonna Tucker,
but things? First, Sarah Cliff had a big news break overnight about the birth
a mandate in Obamacare being repealed by regulation, but by tromp we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about a study the by credit card.
do something, I'm not directly to say about the alert of platinum, credit, flat and credit cards at its base. Your credit card to be heavy, tell that's the only thing:
but first we're gonna talk about mass incarceration and and what is and what is really driving it. So there is a great new book by John Faff. Your book is called yes, it is complex.
did the true causes of mass incarceration, but how to achieve real reform and it
as the thesis I would say,
what unwelcome thesis too, would be fulfilled.
mergers, which is that
whatever you may think, of of the war on drugs or the propriety of having people locked up for non violent, low level, drug offences. That actually does not that many people in prison for non violent level, drug offences and-
the big build up in the number of people in prison in the United States was driven by one, an actual increase in the quantity of violent crimes.
And to an increase in the severity of the punishments meted out for the violent crimes.
that over the past fifteen years, or so the crime rate has has tended to form more twenty years, so that one factor driver
incarceration, had has gone down, but the much more severe penalties are still in place
Add some numbers to this real, quick and and were primarily talking here. What we're talking about state prisons, which have the overwhelming majority of prisoners in its worth in earnings of federal prison system. It has somewhat different dynamics, but only sixteen percent. Sixteen
of state prisoners are on drug charges and of that sixteen percent. Only five to six per cent of that group are
low level and non violent, so we are talking about a fraction of a fraction
can be confusing because a lot of people come into prison on drug charges and
matters Kissimmee have probation where the part of the criminal justice system, but because he turned out
short sentences of people left in are not low level drug offender sorts again. It's only sixteen percent
prisoners on drug charges, only five to six percent group, low level and violent. You could solve
and we would still have
stored in early high international rates of incarceration weight, and you know basically
The story is, I was, I was up on an uncouple hill, the other day to talk about selling completely unrelated to this, but there were holding votes about a bill to
it had something to do with with child sex trafficking and
You know I was gonna make. The penalty is quite a bit tougher and
the more progressive members on the hill were finding themselves in a tough spot because they had gotten.
invested in the idea of reversing mass incarceration and all this kind of you know stuff that has become
conventional wisdom, at least among liberals,
but you're sitting there and have you ask yourself like well? Do I really want to be the guy who voted against tougher penalties for people involved in child sex crimes,
and you know you're, in a safe seed. Like you know, you don't care you you, you stand on principle, but the fear you know that the drives politicians on this is that all it takes is
one media, salient crime that catches the public's attention.
and the fact that you voted for later
penalties, and that kind of case or what
person who got out of jail early because of something you did
This was the the Willy Horton case with with Michael Dukakis and in the eighties he had some pretty
fellow programme in Massachusetts. I think, statistically speaking, the program you know worked fine. That was, I know, big problem with it, but one person who benefited from the programme did go out and committed some some grizzly
afterwards, and it was a real guenaud political weak spot for four Dukakis, and
and to me, that's what's in fact, Spock.
He discusses Michel Alexanders earlier book that the New Jim Crow that was very popular and and the thing about her
is it he tells a story. It's it's a tough
story, but it's also a story that sort of easy for a progressive politician to here, which is that
driven by of racist panic? There was this move to lock up here,
quantities of base
Equally nonviolent drug offenders, predominantly black and latino, and its
fairly easy to say if you like, wanna, get ahead in the world, a progressive politics that you are against that just like all of them. Like nonviolent drug offenders, being jail, is bad
racist. Panic is bad mass incarceration and I'm gonna jump and with a number here again we did a pole with morning consult and we found that aid in
and you as voters, supported reducing prison sentences for people committed a non violent crime and of a low risk of re offending. You get an eight. I mean Europe, its radipole, something the eighty percent, but nonviolent drug offender be out. Let him out fewer than three and
and back shorter prison sentences for people who committed a violent crime, even if they also have a very low risk of re offending. So that's you move from extra
Emily Popular too,
extremely unpopular as soon as a crime becomes violent and what are the good things in the fast? But I have not read the book gap a reading articles about it was
kind of he really recognises. The role of prosecutors is very important in this story, so
The kind of amazing stacks drowsily wasn't aware.
Until we know this has brought up with that
it has been a massive rise in the number of prosecutors in the United States,
This kind of starts with the crime wave in the nineteen, seventeen and nineteen eightys, but as a crime wave dissipates, it's not like we like
If these prosecutors may become some other kind of lawyer, they keep working as prosecutor.
one of the numbers he cites in his book is
the nineteen seventy we had seventeen thousand prosecutors working in the United States that is now risen to thirty thousand prosecutors in two thousand seven, so we ve nearly doubled. The number of people
whose job it literally is to prosecute people, bring charges against them and bring them to court.
And then one things you see is that prosecutor productivity, which I guess
Patrick you use for determining. If you're you know, a successful prosecutor to remain roughly steady
they're putting prosecutors are average, are putting about the same number of people per person in jail as they did. What is this? Like? Ninety? Ninety-
and two thousand seven. But
this by the sheer fact of numbers. The fact you so many more people working as prosecutors. That just means you have like a lot more people. You know in
jail and I think that's its ignored
super exciting story. Laguna Matt was saying I think it's not like a narrative. That's gonna, like fire people up as much that like
local governments, hired a lot of prosecutors and that's like causing some of this prize, but is something that you too, I was even after reading the Michel Alexander buckling. I had never even come across that
that's a very interesting part of. What's going on with me
are, you shot fired up about this narrative. Actually, I want to say a couple of things here: one is, I really want to call out so her mom Lopez, our colleague road, a very long, detailed essay on on Facebook. It's called why you
blame mass incarceration on the war on drugs. You should find it on boxes. It is, it is excellent. I love you only get an Jonah show notes.
but I really want to call it out, because it's really
and the two your point about. He really does focus in here on the prosecutor story and just a couple of things,
to add to that that I just
somebody's. I knew something I didn't, but one of the weird.
things about the american criminal justice system. Is it we elect our prosecutors right, they aren't there it's a political office, and in most
This is one of its true in all places, but in most places and power,
computers are elected or reelected. Overwhelmingly
I think that number that he has here about ninety
percent of incumbent prosecutors, one real action and eighty five percent ran unopposed smell like asked
self. If you are prosecutor and you enjoy your job and you have to stand for election and normal, it's very easy. What is the only thing that could possibly happen that might lead
a campaign that makes you lose your job and the only thing the capacity have
and is it somebody who came before you had committed a crime, was not
given a long enough sentence and got out and a committed and,
their crime, and now it is being used to make you look like a soft on crime prosecutor who did not protect the people
one thing. I precedes also of your interest in this. Has a new book called a colony nation that is related to some issues and we were talking. He was on my part guessing we're talking about this in its like there's a good point,
see the past. We can state prosecutor should not be elected, but it is not obvious that
incentives of running for election are the way you
to discipline prosecutors. I think I think about that.
Nothing I just want to say is a really nice line from Herman in here that I just wanted to grab, because it sort of sums are holding up very nicely and he writes
about Facebook and all points to one conclusion
truly eliminate mass incarceration reforms will have to at some point shift more attention to dealing the mass incarceration of violent offenders, not just low level jog offenders and do so with the focus.
The state and local levels, practically prosecutors in these areas and the point is making, but
leads to what Sarah and Madison here's at every level. The thing that you have to do is the harder thing it's easier
federal, because you can do it in one place right Congress can pass along. Then it's like the whole federal system changes its easy to fall
it's on non violent because it is much more popular prosecutors are hard to deal with, because
local in their elected in their brazilian of them. It's a very, very tough problem,
and as much as we are making, I think we were before trunk got elected beginning to make some real strides particulate. The federal Level Party Nashua National,
politics and there are really good things happening, the state level
we getting to appoint or we reverse mass incarceration- it's it's gonna, be they could
innovations long work, you know I that is in
to me this eggs, I've, I've, seen facts works or bubbling up and gaining more and more attraction, both with like our more criminal justice, focused writers and allowed people on the left is it. I do think that the underlying crime dynamics are really really important here,
and that a weird thing that happened. You know that I try to put on my personal, like why trump one bucket list is that the reduction in
crime rates that had been going on for so long in the United States,
genuinely went into a worse it in twenty fifty and the
It is true that the murder rate in twenty fifteen was still quite low compared to where it had been in the eighties and an early ninetys, and that a lot of what Donald Trump set about that in the in the campaign was demagogic and wrong. But when you think about the political challenges,
involved here. I do think that the extent to which the movement just kind of went on auto pilot,
with the same like this
what we were saying and twenty twelve and twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen when crime is going down in.
And down, even when eggs,
actually, as the national media started, paying more attention to black lives matter and bipartisan criminal justice reform, like the crime rate, was going up and
everybody in the sort of you know right thinking, people
where, like mass incarceration, is a problem and then you
a guy Donald Trump who was offering you know what I want. I think he is like that
Incense man Street point of view, which is like the murder
going up is really bad and we need to get tougher on crime, not softer on crime, and you know, I think that
This sort of missing piece here that there are more climate had an much older vocs peace force was still, I actually think about
like what are ways that people who don't
want to see this astronomical prison population like
What can we actually do to reduce the incidence of crime in the United States?
that will be effective and relatively speaking, humane and
destructive to communities, because I I do think that we're seeing that it's a difficult political problem and hoping that
kind of elite consensus can drive a lax or policy forward in the face of
to rising crime is, is really really difficult. Its hardy violent crimes, falling
we think this is something you see true in a lot of policy areas where there is a focus on like fixing the guinea very
Jude had like educational outcomes are health outcomes are even criminal outcomes when that is
only touching the tip of the iceberg, that it's, a very small part of whatever is happening in
but your life than there are so many things happening. You know outside of the class.
outside of the workplace outside of the doctors office that are contributing to the outcomes in those are the things that are very, very, very difficult to change like you can you knew
work on getting their teacher. Is you can work on like getting more doktor appointments visit stuff outside of like these particularly places where
can actually host the intervention. That is often really the root cause of a lot of the problems that we're trying to solve for
Magazines are the best I got my start working magazines. My mother work for four magazines for for much of her life. Father worked
actions I love them. It is a great way to relax, to get informed and to sort it cannot stay. On top of what
but in the world, without being inundated with the kind of new cycle. At the same time, these, like bundles of paper that are mailed to your house. It's like its barbaric and that's it. We're texture comes it. I'm texter has brought together a whole bunch of leading magazine publishers to create an app tat. Gives you
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What things I'm curious, if you guys, have any knowledge of this, and if not it's fine, so I'm putting you on the spot, but I'm curious like how how other
easy known deal with this. I don't think they have less violent crime, familiar
there. I mean one of his guns, obviously more stringent gun regulations, but presuming.
Like I would guess that people
countries that are not thrilled about having violent criminals like out and about in their street.
But if there is international examples of how the other countries of
deal with this, because even much higher incarceration rate than most there are other countries are doing less violent crime than we do. I don't I don't want to. I dont remember starts off the top of my head, but their rights
a good analyses that show that you actually cannot, if you just do
an equation based on the amount of violent crime? A you know, you do not end up with our incarceration rate that an even in Amerika the incarceration
and the violent crime rates do not move in tandem at all. It's it's it's a totally. It actually turns out to be a totally different thing. I want to go back to something Matt,
mention which is a peace more climate is a crime expert, wrote, provide
but by two years ago, that I've also does really brilliant an inch
sting and maybe a little could below this topic, but but is worth considering the pieces called
and again will put this in China to pieces called we don't need to keep criminals imprisoned.
them. The underlying idea, which
climb in- and he wrote this along with Angela Hockin and Ross Halpern. The underlying idea
we called graduated re entry and basically the
The inside is that we,
used to have for reasons technological, maybe reasons that are simply uncreative. It's like this binary code
Are you in prison or are you not
We ended up in creating other things like parole and probation, and since I was a little bit more in this system, but basic
the inside of climate and and his co authors? Is that particularly
given modern surveillance technology in this writhings do get a little bit this topic, you really cool
have many more gradations between being locked up.
in all of your freedom taken away and just being
surveillance, to make sure that you are not doing the things that had gotten you trouble in the first place or something with those there's a lot of
steps along the way that now technologically it is very
global to do that in a way that it just wasn't before you think about how that the traditional probation and Paul systems work you to go,
check in with a guy or or woman, and you know if you didn't come, that they had to a man hunt for you, and there is a whole thing here. It's I mean GPS is very cheap.
And so it opens up a lot of creativity if you want that, but one of the problems that I
you see in this is, and I think, is hidden in the broader discussion. Overall, we sort of
have to decide what we're trying to do here. Are we trying to rehabilitate people? Are we trying to punish people?
Are we trying to save money? Do not care how much money we try to get the lowest primary possible
There are a lot of goals that your justice system in your inner, your prison system, can be attempting to accomplish, and we, as a country, I think
have not settled on which goals those actually are so mean. If we say
the cushions rehabilitation right and so on,
interested in is recidivism,
AIDS, and you know whether people get jobs when they we prison. You would create something completely different than what we have right of if the point was,
People make mistakes and what we want to do is get them into place where they will not make that mistake again and liver, productive life. You will not do it this way, you just what it on punishment,
think put in the Eightys and Ninetys was actually what we were doing. Maybe would do it this way we
went to very maximum punishments for drug dealers. Further other people we add in
in California, with the three strikes law, which created unbelievably awful consequences. Some still does about, but it was in effect,
I was growing up, but we haven't made them
decision, and so one thing that I think you see in the Michel Alexander Box in the fast books, but in the broader discussion about this in the difference between the criminal justice by Parson Working Group in the Senate and Donald Trump, is an
then unacknowledged difference in ends. Donald Trump click, his first act in politics was he put a he paid for a New York Times advertisement calling for the execution
the central Park, five, who were later exonerated by dna evidence, but but he what his up at a boys
was not catching them or rehabilitating them. It was true
get them a harsher punishment. What he wanted. This is to do with punish more, whereas what
born to rehabilitate more what some people seem to other peoples.
Make an argument that it would just be great if it cost as little as possible, and I think that that this coalition
of different goals. Bigger William
possible to say what conversation were even having much as how to achieve the ends we want. I want. I want you to my thanks
a programme that I think had not existed at the time of climate speaks, but that is a been well down South Dakota and that that, I think, is a good concrete example, and not that just opium to think
is there, a program called twenty four seven sobriety, which is a way of punishing people who commit alcohol related offences
Which is it you know, is a good example read like like drunk driving
It's a serious problem. I people die because people are on the road driving drunk. At the same time, when you
When you have a case where someone gets pulled over driving drunk and they like haven't, killed someone in a horrifying accident.
A deal like locking them up for a lengthy prison term? I think strikes a lot of people. As you know, it's too much it's it's too much.
and so what they do under twenty four seven sobriety is you have to take a brothel iser task twice a day, and if you skip your task or you're not clean, you go to jail for like two days
and then you come out again right. So the idea is to like not have you be riding in
you're out of your community experiencing horrific deprivation for a long time, but you use the fact that jails exist and the certainty.
Detection, because they know your problem to compel. Will you
to stay, sober and
it's a pain, Eminem Shore. People who are involved in this programme, don't enjoy it and its punitive and in that,
Sense, but like it's really not so bad too, like not be drunk and its, in fact in your interest
to not drink and drive, as well as in the larger interests of society and its away,
you're saying you know it's not about like rehabilitation and touching feely sons, but is about
What is the social bottom line here and the bottom line is we do not want people getting drunk driving automobiles
we are going to stop them from doing that, but we're gonna use
the least forceful intervention possible so that you know, if you do what we want like you, keep living there
sort of productive life and there's variants of that that that could work for a lot of things I mean. Obviously, you know.
That's particularly strong, because the crime there, like literally just involves alcohol consumption,
this a lot of people who get mixed up in crime because they fundamentally have substance abuse problem.
and looking at measures that you know have both treatment, but also some stick to it. That directly address those. Those kind of things I think could be in a reasonably promising and the other thing that I think often gets missing
discussions- is America's in some ways really good at punishing criminals
really bad. It actually catching them like. In twenty fifteen, sixty two
and of murders in DC were solved and that's like not that's a great
and if you got a sixty, two percent of your math test be
consider that, like a huge crisis and it it's interesting that the political system processes
excessively lax punishment of convicted offenders as like the worst thing, a politician to do, but just literally letting people get away with murder, is like not a big deal.
and in a weird way- and you know I think it's like come.
Sense right that, like really we can all
that murderers should be punished like somewhat and the cap
relation that will catch half the murders and will give them incredibly harsh punishments. Verses like let's try to catch them all
and give the medium sized punishments to me
It's like a big difference there and what we are currently landing on were words. Substituting very harsh punishment for good, like crime fighting seems like a bad trade off
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Employees working on its here. The draft, the Greek we can say merry Christmas again and also last night, around nine o clock
myself and don't Scott in other health care border you're, foxy version the weeds. We got a copy,
a draft regulation that the Trump Administration is working on that really you widens
the exemptions to the Obamacare birth Control mandate, in a way that almost nullifies
mandate. I think it is fair to say so. A bit of background is helpful,
here- as I am sure many of our listeners, no Obamacare as requirements that insurance companies cover busily all types of crime.
Four September, with no sort of cost sharing for the individual, where you have to pay out of pocket. When you go to the doctor,
provision, that emu is quite popular by think Keener, we even if you look across all voters, it is but like an eighty or ninety percent popularity rating, but is
have been contested by some religious groups, particularly religious unit,
cities. Religious hospitals as well as business, is owned by religiously
Had we don't want to cover birth control in this all really culminated in the heavy lobby lawsuit,
a few years ago, where the Supreme Court ruled
the above it
she had to make more exemptions that they had to let more people out of this requirement. Anyway,
so the above the restriction is really aggressive and protecting the Obamacare mandate. They wanted to make
exceptions as narrow as possible to let you know not as many
opt out this new regulation that we got a copy of last night. It essentially lets it
the employer who wants to raise a religious and moral exemption opt out of the birth control,
firemen, and one of the things that really,
out of all about it. To me, it's not like you have to like apply and say: hey governed.
Like I have this religious or moral objection you just stop covering at
loans, or this is one of the big things I was kind of. That issue is
demonstrations that ok, ok, we'll do this exemption cause the courts as we have to you just have to find the paperwork,
and will make sure that your exempt religious group said he knew we
want to find that paperwork that essentially makes us complicit in your birth control mandate. We won't have no part. We just want to stop covering it.
and that's the process that this trump regulation would end
we say: hey you're, an employer, you
want to cover birth control. Just stop covering birth control.
After notify employees, you have to click, send them an update that
Plan no longer covers birth control, but that's sense.
Yet and that actually feel that gets small. But it also
Big, this is not an exemption. You apply for anymore, it's just an offer on the table that lets you stop covering
birth control so in a kind of wanting
weird way it really is cutting the birth control mandate was requested. It
but that salmon employer who doesn't really care about God or whatever, but eight, but I like money would would
robbing this coverage b
good way to save money. So
it's like what you are running like,
I have a moral objection to spending. Has plenty of birth control.
and I would like to institute a co payment, so new cancer
Call me that this is not like. I have a moral objection to free birth control like every debate, twenty five dollars when they go to the doktor. But what,
can do. Two things are really specific about this regulation. Is you could stop covering expensive birth
trial, because you have like a moral objection to spending their money on. Our duties were really. You can have a moral church and a few days, but you can feel fine about the pill. Oh yeah. Well, this is actually like at the core of a lot of these cases, the moral objection that a lot of am religious group
have. Is not your birth control pills? It's really two ideas because they feel like the am. How and I
the actually works as a little
as defined in science? We have to have a great within the wild episode on this, but they are so
key concern in the hobby lobby. Lawsuit was just about our unity. Is it wasn't about birth control bells? It wasn't about rings or other
of contraceptives. It was the fact that science has not been able to prove a hundred percent
that EU these couldn't in any
possible scenarios stop an egg in a sperm from fertilizer. Do what I say: that's what I
if money as an employer boat, particularly we're locked up Ladys yet so I it is expensive there like five hundred hours HO dollars and the gains of an eye you d of preventing pregnancy, like might not be.
realize during the time you're like us in general, like birth control saves money like because babies are exposed. Babies are expensive but like when people change, jobs lie particular like
you're a young person in twenty or thirty is you have you have a lot of? If you have a lot of church? If you lot expiring, someone's are you d, that's gonna work for years is not necessarily
review covering eighty. If someone who's gonna stick with your company long term, that's great, but let's say you like, buys a majority and they like leave. Unlike six months, you just sunk five hundred dollars into that uses, something Donald Trump ran on. He talked about
here and there I think, like these central issue, but he has promised you know groups more
liberty, is framed. It is an issue of religious liberty. This is something that
some religious universities, privately owned businesses have been kind of pushing
back on their appending lawsuits about this. Like the paperwork,
had to fight. I know a little bit about Donald Trump New York years, since we believe that Donald Trump has
oral objection to covering breath. Like no dumbest did you ever read. There was a great piece about plan. Parenthood focus groups that they had done after the event
in an end. It really showed how like Trump
Will you like got it both ways, and this, like he me
This very sort of cynical, but quite explicit, sir, a bargain with Jerry, followed
junior and other leaders of evangelical community that, like
obviously Donald Trump is a totally fate question, but that he was gonna like go all in and their policy agenda.
you know, he gave them the Corso Keith he's giving them this. He had an earlier executive order at and religious liberty. They are getting like the full christian right policy agenda, but these plan parenthood focus groups that they did with
you know exactly the kind of people who tended to flip from Obama to tromp right which, which sometimes get
gets confusion is like
There are many you long time, white working class, conservative voters in America, typically very culturally conservative people-
but oh bomb. I had done well with northern working class whites, who don't attend church regularly right they sort of democratic friendly subsidies, so that group those people tended to flip toward tromp and plain parenthood interviewed people who, like have use plain parenthood services, but but vote
four trump and a lot of them took trumps insincerity on this as very
we are sure to that right that, like Donald Trump was not like,
one of these super devout super pious, super religious people, George, W Bush, Mitt, Romney kind of guys who come out,
South Utah or whatever and wanna fuck around.
Everybody's personal life like he, was clearly a secular northern parts.
They found businesses again like the belief that, like sure he's like saying best but like that's, not who this guy is like he's not grant? After
This is because you think nobody thinks that, like Donald Trump deep in his pocket,
is like sad about people's religious objections to birth control. Right, like that's like like it's a total joke right, and I think
One just underestimate the power of political party networks that one's peril here, like Republicans as a whole, where very jazzed up about this Donald Trump is definitely a Republican
he is doing. The republican policy, even though like what
He brought on a vice president to a super jazzed up about threats. Like my pencil, someone who's been like a very strong and a pro life movement, very like big on religious liberty. They then bring in like two leaders of the pro life movement into H, H, ass, to kind of like into some top leadership position, so right that the party network, like clear
really like comes into play within months of coming into office, but
is one of his interesting places where Donald
tromp was able to exist in twenty sixteen in all of his policies and always talk about it like our serious or litter who hey, but in a state of quantum uncertainty. He was everywhere nowhere right,
he was defending plan parenthood on stages, but also promising due to fund them. He was clearly a liberal
seen from New York with very chequered marital in sexual history. But all
promising. In order to get rid of Obama's birth control mandate,
nothing that is happening is Donald Trump is in office. Is everything is resolving re like that?
we are opening the box and the cat is dead. End like we know,
Belgium's healthcare plan is now right. He has endorsed an actual your planet as a sepia score like we have. We have information on that. We know what is done on the birth control mandate and its an interesting play
and not unite rubbing versions, discussion yesterday, but Trump
is it not does not have any one and is not? Him
self seem interested in having anybody create a kind of internally coherent trump ism.
and as such, the sort of box of what Donald Trump is now being filled by like, on the one hand, Donald Trump Temperamental, Texan scandals and the Hendrick a pretty hard right agenda.
This is a very unpopular move right when you Paul what is popular,
obamacare the birth control,
As you said, it's like an eighty percent, its very, very, very high
similar pre existing conditions, which is another thing that is now under fire very, very, very high cunning tat.
Rich people should doing that Poles very long and on and on and on the line like Trump is not
self, all that popular any joking himself to a very, very unpopular agenda and
of. You listened to him and if you, if you looked at him, you could have imagined if he had had
the right people around him and empower them in the right way is like how they could have created something that tried to rationalize
bizarre in the way they did it. It derived popularity
being emotionally and in some cases substantively different from where the party was before, but he should not be
to do any of that, and so now, like at some point
your publicans. You gonna run on the record and twenty a keen he's, presumably gonna run on the record and twenty twenty and he's not gonna
able to be in all places at once, he's resolving himself down to being like Paul
agenda with Donald Trump hair peace and its agnostic, good fat,
It's not. I think what the country wanted, something what people thought they were getting
I just in addition to the fact that I think this is bad. Also think it's just it's a bad political idea for him
he's, not leaving any thing of Trump ISM laughed at those.
It had the plan, parenthood focus groups I mean. I could told him:
and this folks. You too, I was watching those debates. We stood up there and spent not having a different policy position, kept arguing the plan paranoid disk
work on behalf of women and he's just not gonna shit on them like other applicants, but then this is like Zat Dignan,
is everything else carries a while? I'm not one of those guys is gonna, leave people and ensure it. I'm gonna cover everybody different, but one of the bizarre
it's happening around. This is
trumps insistence that he's still is different. So, like I watch him, give interview after interview where it says we're working to protect everyone.
existing conditions. We cover everybody, they think he's stuck with a lot
the campaign rhetoric,
even when he is defined as policy positions to be completely different from them, and I think it
some point like it doesn't it may not.
and catch up with you at the point. We are saying things that are quite different from actual policy decisions. I think the point to catch up with you,
Those things actually get enacted,
and one of the things that the let all unique about this birth
Regulation is most regulations. There's a comment period where you collect
a man's peoples and things- and
this regulation. They say because this exemption is so badly needed, because people are suffering that it would take effect. The moment is published in the federal judges
before people comment before people away in on it. It would just go into effect the day
its public show any company
like, if vocs, wants to send us a notice the day this is publishing, hey our insurance plan
Doesn't cover contraceptives anymore? That would be with
the bounds of federal.
Regulations, so it seems. Can we speak to your point
Philip setting himself up like this is possibly the least popular waited
you that, as is dismantling a popular regulation and doing it like right away,
so people can feel the impact like as quick as possible to
the term this out a little bit one one take that I've heard from people for four years on this is that
this whole more.
Ass around the hobby lobby issue
To show that a
payer system that would not present this question of employers
in their consciences, which would be way better and and would solve these problems
and since it is more you no legislative enthusiasm for for single parent,
perhaps I think, is really worth pointing out that that is totally totally totally totally wrong that the you know.
formalism here yes, has to do with the fact that its an employer provided thing, but the way
Quality is just that. There are hot button disputes about the legitimacy of certain kinds of healthcare services, the United States, with like abortion at the very pinnacle of that hot, but
controversial nest. Various forms of birth control. You know filtering out lots of other things on the edges, fertility treatment, senile surrogacy that there's lots and lots of different things there, and you know this will be the subject of endless to and fro poetic.
By this I mean to say it's like the worst idea in the world.
But when you say that we're gonna have a democratic decision process that is going to tell us.
What healthcare services will be paid for by the government and what healthcare services people just get me out on our own four out of pocket like that
it's going to be a political process is not going to be decided by. You know a panel of matter.
experts in its certainly not can be decided by like your most left wing friend who works it plant parenthood.
There's gonna be a tussle about it. Some stuff is going to be left on the cutting room floor and for all the hideous problems with creating an employer based system through backdoor tax subsidies,
It does create a situation in which there is a diversity of health plan offerings and people.
Don't feel the need to have a central.
Eyes decision about him, and we saw this in the affordable care act right where to get the bill path?
most conservative Democrats made them put in amendment to say individual marketplace. Plans couldn't cover abortions right not exist, so that their tax credit
Couldn't go on commercial second soak up. There was never a movement to deny the tax exemption to employers.
Said plans that provided abortion coverage right, even though
There is the same subsidization mechanism, unlike the more
are you centralized this decision making the more these kinds of fights are going to be central to the political argument
and you know that psycho, although you can make me, wasn't about project an idea, which is why I agree with the bay.
Point making, although I sometimes think one of the interesting things about this debate is, if you pause it a world where Democrats heads liberal
had sufficient strength to pass a single pair bill right there,
that's a very disruptive big bill- then you're probably all-
positing a world where they have the strength, at least initially, to
set most of the agenda on buckets covered on its it's like there's a funny thing with some. These debates were thick. If you assume the constellation of forces, then some these problems follow
because you're already assuming a much more weakened opposition than the one we have now
We love anything more. You know if California is going forward, the California single payer bill, but they need all kinds of federal waivers
That is why? Yes, yes, I you know- I mean like it's just american politics is messy and, like you know, the healthcare system is gonna. Just have these kind of controversies. Word like in medical
right like Medicare, I think, does not cover people's abortions, because his fur senior citizens- and we don't like think about it, but you couldn't
you can say: oh everybody likes Medicare Medicare is uncontroversial, let's have Medicare for everyone, but you wouldn't. Nobody actually wants, like literally that, like a healthcare programme
for senior citizens for nine year olds doesn't like make sense
Better care, I dont, think covers what reforms I really mean exactly it in a week and laugh, but, like obviously it's important right, would people mean when they say Medica for all, is something like a comprehensive set of healthcare services, but like the political process of defining what that means is gonna, be very contentious who knew
of care. Could be this complicated me? That's what I ask
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So we have a white paper that I found interesting I'll see what you guys think of it as kind of
addition to the show, and this is a and B
deeper about a lead to credit cards. It's called status, goods, etc. This is great experiment of evidence from platinum credit cards, and it really is the sake
international team of economists, University of Chicago the World Bank Harvard and folks from the brazilian government. They all team
with this indonesian bank, this very large indonesian bank to essentially sea like do these gimmicks to market platinum credit cards, work like
If you just like describe something, is exciting and, like you know elite, can you get more people to sign up your credit card
and the answer they essentially find is yes, they do a few different versions of this experiment. They ve one where they, if a country
group in a trial groupie. In one case they just described the benefits of this new credit card in the trial group. They add the word platinum
and I was indeed our way more interest in this car that has literally the exact same benefits. There's another version of this that they do where you know they talk about the benefits of the card, with an attack on a paragraph, what they say, and only rich people can have this car that poor people are not allowed in this car and offices
all are again we more interested in signing up for this card. I was sorry,
as in this paper, to see the extent that these gimmicks work that like
it seems a very impressive.
Behavioral economics intervention that they are that their showing Andrews like weird what things I liked about newspapers, this weird to me that this experiment exists in the first place.
large indonesian bank was served
Searchers like let's do this,
spare me Dunham Bank customers and like they want
you know about it, but like This'Ll, be great so where they ve learned, maybe a more effective way to scam their customers.
I really impressive work. They just reverse engineer normal credit card advertising like of course, if like. Why would they all do this if it didn't work, but it just credit card rant and uneven the market
there's, a reason why, like
the double use like say that they are being w on the outside of the car and then, if you upgrade to like the Special M class high end internals, they put an m also
outside moving her car, like that on the outside of your car. It doesn't make it go faster, but it lets people know that you have the special fast one and it's a
I mean it's an interesting experiment if only because, like daddy, is good, but we know that, like brands and marketing matter,
I was so surprised like, I do get it for like a car that, like you drive around and like maybe it's, maybe I don't hang out with a super setting high powered people, but I was,
prize to the extent to which people were willing to value something described as platinum
they like not available to poor people. That literally kept in your wallet
you know ninety now- you're not driving around and you're, not wearing it. Like a handbag, I do the first of these relates to other car. So I think I think one reason credit cards are such a powerful status object there. Actually one of the few places people
implicitly directly compare their wealth against each other. When you go out to dinner,
your friends and nobody splits a check and puts down credit cards right. That is
the very where I am open to it. It's like so
is going on with your bank account like what have you qualify for like I'm, not saying it's good, but it does.
Surprise me that there is a that people feel a status competition,
with that, because they are in a way that pulling
at twenty dollar. Fifty dollar bill does an odd credit card
Poland, I gave us an invaluable either signifier of wealth to people, and that feels to me like what credit card companies are very effective at at activating
now, whether not the deed, the underlying gills could, I think, is interesting. Here's obviously people nothing that much attention to the underlying deal and I think in all other cases these deals are com
get it. I didn't have a credit card for long time. Physically. Basically, scared me. I thought us kick head. Sniggered
something I didn't understand, but that's it
Sorry, I didn't understand yeah what now
are these good websites? It was just like somebody else's figuring this for you and I'm telling you which one to get but yeah.
credit cards is status, object or does it feel surprising, maybe like allowances basin? I think I don't think so
Look today or not it's kind of crime and like while, like you, you may because uses do you think I do also, then you know the the setting of the experiment is: is right
ready Mean Indonesia is a middle income country in which you know
Probably a lot of people who have a direct you know, family connection or personal experience of the kind of like die are like
rural poverty, in which, like you, can't have credit cards
at all. Can it can
situations I mean, I think I think rightly,
should, I think, for the most to leave. Credit card is fifty thousand dollars a year and we're talking like, like a
in common, but here- and I think you know what I think, particularly in asian countries- that have seen relatively rapid economic growth
has been a lot of like changes in people's social status
and family status there's even more status consciousness than there is in any way
states where I mean not. Just eight doesn't exist here, but it's like,
the more your like accelerating upper growth curve, the more like, hey MA am I made it. You know is, like
Where did I guess I go back? What do I mean? Invest instead of consciousness like I want, like the ones
I d like to show off all the time
This is like the tiny and
action I might have like some
the time one of the interesting things they also shown this study is. They chose him evidence that people are more willing to use their. However, all credit cards and social interaction too there are definitely is like a level of that.
going, I'm proud of having to spend money on like status
signalling. I was surprised that this is something is presumably like your ears,
decisions that these people are not wealthy enough where they can dislike literally spent?
on any sort of status. I had a bit surprising like, but this one is especially
Our one question I have doubts
about studies like this is kind of experimental evidence?
in the real world? How much of it would translate into the person spending money on it? Right is these? Are they busy put people rooms, understand the study and gave it
the term sheets and talk about the thing it's an hour. You introduce ethics, are calling over the phone line. I, like your bank, known as interested and would do. It are different thing, though two tier point. Actually, I have been in the last couple
The years I have seen what strikes me as commercially successful advances in credit card aesthetics right cards have gotten heavier people
putting the numbers on the backs of they have this clean? Look these like fancy metal that partners Yazzi Metals- and I am
actually surprise that we have seen more like gaudy innovation and credit cards, because I think this is a very powerful effect and legality
real science has enhanced far enough
feel like change the game.
We I mean the gift it they ultimately to be something that credit card reader can scan beacon of all kinds of crazy shape.
on top of the strap I give them? Credit is gonna, get have like a little like blinking life, and you can do all kinds of things to make sure people do a credit card, your handling and I'm a
a bit surprised we have actually to see like more often
for it to make the credit card to status symbol, which we ve, seen, among other things, with watches in China. The watches are huge seeking
splay more. You can hold your grand
but her powerful started, simple solutions, a lot of innovation around them so funny. You know like a credit card,
our time on that day came my way years ago, was that there was this. This litigation in two thousand nine two dozen ten and the subject of it, was that
But he had come out with a new card that you you to pay a couple hundred dollars for, and they were calling it the black card,
an American, Express, sued them and tried to say the date they should be able to trade mark that name
they for years had been marketing a credit card that was black and it was
The centurion card- and it was this like altruist special car,
You need to spend two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. It had like a seven thousand dollar annual fee. You couldn't even apply for the card. You had to be asked to to join it and have any battle. I dont know exactly what is it? What the benefits were, but what?
do know is that in the in the arts, it was a popular like hip, hop lyrical reference as like an example of your wealth, so so low wean, bow that they-
had sons were they would mention invade. This was the key thing that this internal card was black, but it was in the wraps
they refer to it as the black card adds an economy a west song is apparently, I think you caught us earlier. Acre crowd is that of a black Brown ever ploughed? Why, yes, but not without a term african American express the clips had a we got it for cheap black card arab mix tape about you know how often they were apparently in there they run down the den benefits, but been so you know,
I did at. The obvious fact is that, like a normal, hereby fan could not get the centurion card, which was the point of reference in it in the lyrics, but then these are.
People had the idea of marketing a card that they would call the black card and would be expensive but cheap enough.
like a normal middle class person could afford it and they were like having some
success, whether it until American Express suit them, and you know it- it all- went into the world of litigation, but it just as you like
Practitioners are well aware that these cards are status symbol.
And not like narrow cost benefit analyses I think, like frustrates the data.
did me research to credit card very carefully that I came. This is an earnest like well, you like them in advance and that's how you choose a credit card and then to see like that. Actually, people just like that
the cards other. I do wonder as we move to digital payment and apple to evolve. This becomes obsolete.
We can no longer throw down. That's gonna be
a question I how a kind they make, how a they created status symbol.
When you do. I think this is actually the problems are having gas electricity nerdy to pay with their apple with your Iphone or somethin. Does our avenues,
I'm. Getting this nerd researching benefit the programmes of f of Apple watch. You can do the apple pay off you. Why? Oh and then you can have a fence
like banned or something yet. So that's it that's the case. All all of life is status. Competition is very unfortunate.
so you should demonstrate superior status by telling
your friends, colleagues, session media followers etc to download episodes of the Reeds America's finds podcast
You know it. Thank you. Thank you for doing that joined the Facebook group. If you haven't great discussion there, your credit card tips
always appreciated. I met a quick replied. My pie costs as a kind of exit the round about common, empty, appear, commanded a appear on the pike us because a philosopher at New York University. In the author cosmopolitanism, we about I felt a religion discussion about what has become
like one of the most politically reviled words and philosophies cosmopolitanism. I think people would enjoy that,
producer Bird Pinkerton, and we will see you on Friday.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.