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Afghan refugees face an uncertain future


Matt is joined by Vox’s Nicole Narea for a discussion on the complex situation facing Afghan refugees following the United States withdrawal. Nicole explains the variety of avenues through which Afghans can attempt to reach the US and why many of them are not viable at this moment. Nicole and Matt also compare the US evacuation from Kabul with the evacuations from Iraq and Vietnam.


“Biden had a chance to save US allies in Afghanistan. He wasted it.” by Nicole Narea (Vox; Aug 17, 2021)

Google Map of Macedonia, Iraq, and Afghanistan

U.S. Refugee Admissions Program

U.S. Department of Health & Human Services - Office Of Refugee Resettlement



Nicole Narea (@nicolenarea), Immigration Reporter, Vox


Matt Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Slowboring.com


Ness Smith-Savedoff, Producer & Engineer

Erikk Geannikis, Producer, Talk Podcasts

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Accessible, affordable broadband. communities reached or their american dream for students. Lectures on Chavez means rising above the poverty line becoming valedictorian of international High School Langley Park, and thanks to access from eighteen t, it can help these dreams turn into reality. That's right! we're making two billion dollar three year. Commitment to help closed the digital divide, more Americans have the chance to succeed to learn more visit, HTTP Dotcom, slash connecting communities. People often ask me if prosecuting the mob is like the movies well I can tell you this. The real thing is much more interesting
I'm Ellie, honing, former Bob prosecutor and host of the new pod cast up against the mob up against the mob, lift the veil on the world's most secretive criminal organization, La Cosa, Nostra New episodes drop every Wednesday starting September. Eighth, listen and follow up against the mob on Apple pie, gas Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Welcome to another episode of the weeds and boxed media potass network. I met in Galicia, my guest today, Nicole Maria, is rocks, duck coms, immigration reporter and wanted to talk about these situation Afghanistan, which has a lot of aspects. If you want to see me on twitter dot,
Defending the binding ministration you're welcome to find me there. I think I'm the kind of big foreign policy issues, Did you talk about with coal is something more specific, which is the situation with with Afghans who are or might be eligible for different pines refugee status in the United States or elsewhere. What has been done to help them and not just that logistics of the evacuation, but the sort of much larger policy context of getting them approvals and the other options they are so Nicole, Boca things that's so a free! is that many of us have become familiar with. Lately is ass. I ve, which is related to this, and can you like what is that? What is an s ivy, where
I come from yeah, so vague, yes, I'll be programme was created in two thousand sex. It stands for special immigrant visa and that it was really born out of sort of the combined lobby efforts of refugee experts. You is governed please who worked in Iraq and Afghanistan, and also Mr Merrick soldiers and Marines and the programme is, Sickly, designed to bring over mostly people who worked as operators for the: U S military, but also others who were directly employed by the? U S, government get them these eyes and allow them to eventually become citizens of the? U S, and basically, just sort of a means of protecting those people. It makes sense both diplomatically and just from a humanitarian standpoint. I think for a lot of people were this programme was started. It was seen as something that was very poor, no, to these advocates who are working for it in the sense that you know these are people today had work side by side with and new
personally and these they are called who were being ass. She death threats, and there were bullets showing up at their doorstep. So it really- was a sympathetic group that pass administration sort of were able to zero, went on and find these people to be the most worthy of protection. and as I mentioned, it was like something that was implemented for rockies as well and then later fur Afghans yea- and I mean I I remember this from the Iraq context and as you say, I mean it's sympathetic, group only sympathetic sort of people in IRAN. Or Afghanistan, but they had a unique relationship with American soldiers and veterans, because when you work side by side with people in the field and stressful dangerous situations, there's a bond creates- and there was a special emphasis on the idea that people in that situation needed help.
not pragmatically right, I mean we. There was an ongoing demand right for interpreters and other assistance and so sort of showing that we are able to help people. It's It is not the same as the Witness Protection programme, but it has some of the same ideas behind it right if we wanted id to cooperate with us. We needed to show that we were able to do things to safeguard them in there. boys yeah. I guess that was also relevant like beyond just the conflict in Iraq in there. I think U S. Military leaders supported this programme because it was a show of faith on their part that you know. If you work with the: U S, government, we will have your back, but it's also sort of lake politically expedient right, because you gonna have this finite population that the? U S can point to in terms of being the most deserving court. Unquote of? U S, assistance and, I think,
after Vietnam. You know U S. Officials had tried to set parameters round, just who should be prioritized for evacuations, but in practice it ended up just being that they airlifted prematurely you wanted to get on a plane. But now you know the by demonstration has committed to getting out american citizens per annum: events and then these s ideas but is also cut loser commitment to getting out of Vulnerable Afghans like exhibits, a sort of at this point pretty undefined, but that many people I think we're taking meaning a women's rights in EL diabetes activists, the pleas of Ngos and media organisations etc. But yes, I think this population, given that there is a finite number of em, about like eighty thousand, both like a primary applicants and families it sort of easy further. You asked people to point to this population and save user, who we're gonna be able to protect it. it's a substantial number of people. But it's us a finite quantity.
In a way that someone who is alarmed about the Taliban taking over the country is like that's a very span save group. But what is the eligibility exactly for this? I mean immigration policy, visa rules It's like full of fussy details What what do you need to have done to be eligible, for so away even more to the point like what do you need you to actually get the visa, because this between, in theory you, get one and in practice you get one right there is currently an arduous fourteen step application process that involves significant documentation. That critically includes recommendation, one from an applicant's like senior. U S, citizen advisers! They really do need to have worked directly for the. U S government, on the minimum here, it is one year, but that recently change. It was previously two years
but the problem is that a lot of Afghans who would otherwise be eligible for the programme have had difficulty obtaining that recommendation letter, especially in Chad, his where they were working as contractors, because you know they may not have no- whoever is the senior? U S, citizen supervisor, overseeing a project, and so just even know that person is somewhat of a difficulty. But then you know, even if they can kind of gather those required documents, there's really lengthy wheat time before their ultimately, fruit for visa under federal law. There required to be processed within nine months, but in practice always been longer than that. the trouble menstruation actually kind of actively stone while the programme, meaning that than a single essay be process between March twenty, twenty and January twenty or twenty one, but it still even with Biden, sort of refer tracing the programme so, but he gave up two years to process the applications.
at this point you know for people who are still waiting in Afghanistan like they can't afford to wait for as long as all that vetting will take and veto. As part of this, they have to undergo various background checks and security voting which, you know some people are saying these things should be waived and it should be allowed to come directly to the? U S but like I think there are some obvious point the reasons why the bite administration doesn't necessarily want that to happen. At this point with this spirit is crucial right because we look at the situation in Afghanistan. There is a desire period in the war for most of twenty twenty and motion Many twenty wine. When Trump has this truce in place with the Taliban, were s, troops are scheduled to withdraw. The airport is open in Kabul.
and like this would be that the time the final months trumped administration, the first months of the binding ministration when people would be saying, like oh shit, I've gotta get this paper work together, They weren't processing the visas. During that time and binding, I mean trumped not at All- by. I guess I got it going, but it wasn't like it wasn't me a crash programme. It wasn't like ok, we got four, months till I get as much this done as humanly possible yet and I think has created a lot of frustration on the part of lake emigrant advocates, and you know ex military groups, because you know that Metricians been able to process five thousand application since I took office, but that was never like at that place. It was never going to be enough because given,
Are you know eighty thousand people in the application pipeline? They were never able to a process that many people before the August. Thirty first withdrawal deadline, so they kind were putting their faith in this programme as part of the primary means be able to get vulnerable Afghans out but there wasn't really any urgency on the part of the administration, and I think a lot of people had presented down the advocacy side had presented. The administration with a plan to get them out more quickly, but- and this is months ago. You know in April may, but I think ultimately, what happened was that may be divided nutrition fault, that the afghan army would be able to buy them some extra time so that they continue power. Using these visas after the withdrawal deadline. But maybe even that seems like a kind of charitable reading of the situation I mean, even if you do the math on it right I mean it would be Fourteen years sounds like takes care of. All right I mean that's. Not me like It does seem like the Bite administration thought the afghan military,
hold out for longer than it did, but the amount but the timelines, don't they right. I mean even under a much more optimistic assessment. They were, they were ever gonna get through this backlog without some policy change yeah. I think I to wonder whether we would have seen level of privatisation of getting people out if there weren't these horrific images from the first day of evacuations the airport and this kind of like mass public outcry largely part of the media, which you know. I know you ve spoken about your opinions on that, but you I just I would you wonder to what extent they were ever really planning to get the vast majority of those eighty thousand people out, and you know I do wonder to what extent I think that the probably the success of this operation will ultimately be measured and the fact that you know the number of men lives lost. We should this at this point. Zero, but and of course, that's impressive and should be commended, but you know I think it's
a lot more difficult to assess what the cost might be to this group of form, we'll Afghans and even people who are eligible for the Save II programme. So it's just interesting to me, you know: is it this outcry that caused this prioritization one? I think I mean what what what I think you do. I people understand from this is the distinction between the logistics of the evacuation of the eligible people view says. How has the population been defined, rights and D they set the bar low, random in first Trump and then in taking over created a smaller population of evacuees? Then you would have had If you would debtors and then it seems to me there doing a pretty good job of evacuating the people who they're a vacuum right, but this is much larger grew who sort of moral fit the credit
sorry, but are not actually going to be able to get the visas under this circumstance, and no provision has been made for the really, although, you know. What's a few days left, I guess theoretically, it could be yeah meet. There are ways that that bind administrations try to open up pathways for people to come to the? U S as refugees, but I think, those are relatively in viable compared to this programme just because it will require people to get out of the country on their own without kind of U S, distance, but yet I think it's just gents Aki economy. This point the way press secretary yesterday, I'm in a press conference that you know ignore Jane that there are millions of Afghans who want to leave now that the Taliban controls the country and that many of them won't get out? But you know that different from the number that the? U S wants to evacuate because they aided the war effort. So it seems pretty plain to me what the administration is price
he is at this point why, in theirs I mean there's this all kinds of middle grounds, random in their psych layers of on my these people, who have the Suvs people who could have the s ideas if they could get it processed. Then there's people who helped the United Danes ride like some broader sense right, but still wouldn't be eligible like there are lots of people who served in the Afghan National Army who served in the police who may have at times thought alongside american soldiers who may have participated. in the civilian government in different ways. You know they may have been I'd like running a school for girls somewhere and none of those people would be eligible like even if paper. Work was falling, but you might like feel that something should be done for them.
and then there's just people who would like to leave fright I mean, if you, you know galloped as these surveys. Sometimes if, like people around the world- and you know how many people would like to emigrate from the country that their living in and its, of people- and you know weird you draw. That line- is like a really important question, with huge humanitarian implications. and by his drawn it very narrowly- and I think, european leaders have also been making it clear that, like they really don't want to see a large flow of asylum seekers, unlike their very mad, that the United States has created a situation in which a lot of people are gonna want to leave Afghanistan because they don't want to. Let me yeah, and I also think that part of this line drawing on binds part is somewhat motivated by like this being an issue that kind of brain
together. I had of late red and blue tribe activists like there's been bipartisan. Support for this ground for pretty much as long as it's existed, and given the fact that, like Congress hasn't really been able to reach any then, on immigration reforms, it's sort of amazing that they were able to pass legislation last month to speed up the processing of s, ideas and increasing of available visas for the programme and an is some of the eligibility requirements like it passed. I think, for oh said, Two, sixteen in the house so lay I can understand- were biting his coming from politically in drawing the line where he has, and it is somewhat consistent with his other immigration policies. I think his will What in a few but in some ways I think some of his immigration policies aren't all that different from trumps. So
sort of interesting where it falls in that broader philosophy. Let's break even talk about, some of them will have with a lot of noise between the pangs, the dealings, emails urgent that you know they may be not that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static. It's your win on the things that really matter, but just like we can train our bodies to be better running, faster and lifting heavier. We can train our minds to seek focus to all the noise we live with step. One download hates me This is an app is loaded with guided medications and often daily dose mindfulness. They ve got sessions for every situation like a remit. It s a west meditation when you're over one by the day and even meditations abuse hits when you are all over well. I think it's me, is really cool. I'm not like up and Euro Mediterranean always sounded like a weird dear to me, like, maybe look to loosen like that, but I checked out head space like it's really cool, it's really useful and helped to get a little com little bit poisoned the day. It's very convenient you can
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we're making two billion dollar three year commitment to help closed the digital divide, more Americans have the chance to succeed to learn more visit, HTTP Dotcom, slash connecting communities, An alternative I guess exists. to this kind of narrow funnel would would be I've heard advocates that. We should be doing humanitarian pearl. We should get people out of Afghanistan and I guess sort of like vet them out the country is that what Amiens yeah so parole is sickly this and it allows those who live and work in the? U s temporarily before they apply for some other kind of visa or humanitarian protections, and the reason why that's been talked about a lot is that because these visas are being held up in Afghanistan and they won't be fully
fast on any legitimate headline: the parole He would basically allow the U S to bring these people to maybe a place like Guam for apple, which is used territory or just to military This is in the? U S directly and processing would continue there and one of the reasons why that's ideal is at least from a humanitarian standpoint. It it makes more to bring Afghans to you as soil whither. Some guy t of various legal protections and aid as possible and stay in. Third countries, where a lot of them are are now being brought. You know to lick, cut, are, and Germany and elsewhere. It might be preferable because in some of those countries that those professions might not be as strong so, for instance, and cut our homosexuality is legal and there's a lot of concerns about what will happen to El Gb tissue Afghans. But that's just one example, but also. I just think that like, given that this is a use created problem. There should be some accounting
Letty in terms of the US government bringing them to U S territory, and that was the that was the Vietnam resolution and, in the seventies, random in very large flow of people from South Vietnam, largely to Guam in the first instance. Then I guess I don't know what they would like check to see if you were a communist spy and, whatever else, but then people would go from from glum, ultimately to the mainland yeah on. So it happened in Vietnam and nineteen semi five, but also with the Kurds from northern Iraq in nineteen. Eighty six- and you know qualms historically been used for that purpose. It made a lot of sense. This was something that was proposed to divide administration a few months ago by a litany of like advocacy groups, and you know qualms governor, actually volunteered to have the island host Afghans, but was kind of posted by Biden. So, like qualms done this before
they were willing to do it again and also from a public health perspective? Amid the pandemic economics lot of sense to bring people too, and I and where eighty percent of the people are vaccinated, and you know given that Afghanistan's vaccination rates have been poor, it would all species the sort of like facilitate that yeah. So I think in that, spock you know, Guam made a lot of sense and might have been used this instant spoke for reasons. We still don't know, Biden decided instead, I think some people have speculated that, but wanted to bring them to third countries first, just because as bringing them to a? U S, territory again affords these, Afghans additional rights and it might be harder to send them elsewhere that there might be some obligation at that point to bring them to the mainland? who s Agnes. I mean this seems like a to understand this, you have to look at the larger immigration policy Sodom picture that is unfolding right that I mean I think,
if there were no asylum. So there's that the southern border had no controversy about in no other things, you might have gotten a different answer from the bad administration here, but they made some changes to trumps immigration policy and the beginning of the administration. They have gotten a lot of asylum seekers coming and they have been sort of running away from that ever since right, I mean trying to say people shouldn come continuing to expel people with title to various, You know, I don't quite know how to characterize it because, like they're in the court's over Micro Protection programme and making some kinds of policy changes, but it's obvious that, like they don't want to grant asylum to a large quantity of people, and they feel like they ve, taken on a lot of political water. Over that
and it seems to me like that- influences the thinking on Afghanistan yeah, I think only in it. Unfortunately, it sort of backfired on them to an extent. Now you have Republicans going in the opposite direction. You know criticising Biden for not doing enough to help afghan refugees and seemingly, like the point on this, has somewhat reflected the fact liking. Fox news is talking about this in a sense that, like even in a more than Seventy per cent of republican support resettling these people in the? U S which Think is just sort of an interesting dynamic, but maybe with the reality of of masses of people coming to the- U S, I do wonder whether that will change but yeah. I do think that Biden really fears the right way narrative on this, and that was possibly why here, sort of slow walking these evaluations of afghan eyesight use? but I think also it's worth mentioning like when the reasonings that the findings is given for this? Is that the former asking
President Ashraf Johnny did say that he wanted the Bite administration, to grant us I ve status, somewhat selectively and not to carry out a mass evacuation sort of just as a matter of during that it didn't seem like the? U S, didn't have faith in the afghan forces, so I think that's one of the sort of the morning, the justification that they Gmbh finesse, but then there is also a sort of this domestic dynamic. That is very much part of the by demonstrations, issues on on immigration, wait. A minute is true when, when, when Ghani was in Washington in June he was saying like down to a huge dramatic- evacuation because he thought it would he thought would cause the collapse of his military. That then happened anyway, since it happen anyway, it seems like a really bad call to have made decisions premised around preventing that,
but you know it was what they were saying back in June, perhaps not a hundred percent. You know level. I always wonder I mean I wonder about these poles like how many people they think they are talking about helping you know why, I recently, will you notice, as we met for coffee, while I was in my- was inbred America. You know- and I and I talked some some normal people about this, and they were very outrage. that guy wasn't getting out. You know all the people who helped us and I started ass, like how many people did they think that was, and they were usually naming like low single, Thousands which you know, is an interesting. Option of like, what's this It's true right. I mean if the if there were like four thousand people who had been Super duper helpful to the United States of America and we would refusing to evacuate them like that will be horrible but we ve evacuated a lot of people.
just a lot more people who are not being evacuated because, like that, the total number people involved his long trite, we're talking about tens of thousands of, people and I haven't seen I would be interested to see like public opinion field testing, like how many refugee is or have we want to characterize them from Afghanistan. But would you like to see the United States except Does Skinner honestly, I mean this is going to be an ongoing issue like the evaluation process and, I think, relatively quickly, but people they continue fleeing Afghanistan in one form or another. And you know how we want to think about their treatment and the United States is responsible. it is a situation. That's gonna continued be relevant for quite some time to come. Yeah. I think also like the timeline on this. It is really long like we still don't really know how many people might
seeking refuge in the? U S from Afghanistan, because they may be stranded in a third country like even among the people who haven't been evacuated, people who fled overt a packet- hence border or elsewhere to Turkey, for example, those people might be able to apply for refugee status through programmes that divide administration has made level, but we know a lot of it depends on. Even you know the caprice many of the? U S to receive them their resettlement agencies here that have been Jesse, aid under the Trump administration and are trying to repair. Old, so that's a potential hold up, but then
also just the bite administration. You may recall a few months ago. I got a lot of heat for not increasing the refugee camp to what he promised on the campaign trail, which was two hundred twenty five thousand. It's now around. Sixty two thousand were probably not going to resettle anywhere near that in this fiscal year, which ends in October, but I think there is a big question. You know he will have to issue a presidential determination as they call it in need of September October for what the refugee cap will be for next year, so I think what people are watching that to get some semblance of how many Afghans might be able to be resettled under that it could be a large proportion of the hundred and twenty five thousand but they're kind of regional allocations right now, that the cap for people from that part of the world is about four thousand, so we could him rapidly increasing that, and I think that would make sense, but how people react tonight when that question comes around, I think will be interesting. What happened? Would we
refugee camp he promised to the campaign trail to increase it, and then they were. Can we increase it and then they did increase it, but not as much, but then we didn't resettle like we didn't actually resettle more people. Is that I rang what happened here, so it's a lot of this sort of a vestige of trumps legacy in some ways? You know physically the capacity of refugee agencies in the? U S is tied to what the cap is in a given year and Trump had drastically slashed refugee admissions. I think the last time it was like nineteen thousand, but given that the refugee camp was so
so dramatically under Trump. A lot of these agencies had to a close offices all across the: U S they had to fire people like it was it it's been a mess. So there was all this consternation at the beginning of the binding ministration about you know how many the refugees, the? U S, would actually be able to resettle, even if he did increase the cap, and I think ultimately, he slightly increased the cap that adds to the resources that these agencies are able to have an and increases their capacity, especially now in the face of many tens of thousands of people seeking refuge from Afghanistan. But you know, regardless of He did there, the? U S was probably never going be able to resettle the tens of thousands of people that are now seeking refuge. Special way I mean has there been passively rebuilding at least over the pass. Six months year, I mean, is this thing. Where were you I mean it just seems like we weren't really into one twenty one able to ramp up that much,
regardless of the of the politics but next year, but should it be possible, at least two to resettle substantially more people you I mean, I think that's what refugee agencies are saying. You know they ve been in the process of hiring and opening reopening offices over the last few months since Biden took office, I think another obstacle in this that I mentioned is just a pandemic, because These agencies also rely on international partners like through the, U N, I'm in there structure abroad to resettle graphic. In the? U S, you know that they'll go to refugee camps and and send you S office there's going to interview refugees, but they first have to be identified by the? U N, so there's a lot of moving parts to this that hopefully given sort of the state of a pandemic, now it may no longer be as much of an issue and yeah. I think right now. It's just a question of how many refugees Biden will be able to commit to in his presidential determination and a few months.
right, ok, I'm like what's it over again and I want. I want to talk about some of the historical context for this. The issues around the world is you'll, know what it's here and it's definitely worth your time. Teaching the package, which is hosted by per Anderson, features of huge right, even if tax burden is explaining central and pretty vital question since it can we harness evolving technology to make our lives better or will it harnesses it's a mass of western courts. The show attacks upon a ton of different perceptions, interesting MIT, Professor sit on our machines, looks at the promise of social media waits, tractor brains, constantly Craven war, porches everything another absolve looks at the way. The Tec we use every day is changing the way our brains function. That would preachers neuroscientist Alison Gap, whose written extensively child development and with our brains, process, language, learning things and so much more. If you ready to take a look at where we're headed, what that would mean that we live you need to listen to the world is go no, it's out now, whatever you're. Listening to this
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I wonder about this. You know dish with a lot of coverage of everything. That's that's going on in a lot of commentary, but at least it my experience, I'm like now familiar with a lot of law scale accusations of people from war zones and visa related issue who is- and you mentioned earlier Kurds from northern Iraq in eighteen, ninety six and like what happened there like that, might be relevant to helping us understand how these situations can we handle yeah. So there were about sixty six hundred iraqi Kurds who were evacuated must come from Macedonia where they had thought fled the country, and at that time they were sort of any area of Iraq. It was protected by the U S, but they had no paper work at all, but in the interests of their safety, the? U S, government brought them to the Andersson AIR Force Base in Guam
in the interim, to sort of allow time for processing and physical examinations and immunization, but nearly all of the evacuees ended up on the: U S, mainland, within seven months, in an operation to cut involved over a thousand members of the military and and civilians, and they were basically paroled into Guam, and I think that sort of eight point of controversy with binding administration. As you know, how soon do you want to bring Afghans to the? U S in their process of being vetted and before you are able be granted parole you'd, you have to undergo some kind of security check, but I think the question is whether these people again had had no bees as no paperwork, but they were.
well brought directly to the: U S and then eventually, let's go in the? U S mainland, I think that kind of interim step would bring them to. Guam is big step that the? U S, government hasn't been willing to take on the case if the Afghans, but it might might have provided a model for how they could have done it without having to go through these negotiations with third countries to host Afghans as refugees, possibly for months on and ended up its w point of contrast. I mean, I think, just sort of how people understand what the difference is. It's not that it's was it triumphs of it. Accusation logistics under fire. They had already left raw. They were in Macedonia which, if you feel a kind of map peasant wait for maps but Macedonia's like a couple countries away from rock the point is that they were granted a presumption, essentially that like we would want to take them right like They didn't have papers, they didn't have the right documents, but they were all given pearl and then they were very.
Which is to say you know any kind of government process way. Like I mean if you ve ever interacted with the government, and any capacity is like a mood in which the government is like, yes, we want help you and now we're going to find. make sure you have your stuff in order and theirs. The suspicion right the immigration system normally operates in a kind of suspicion mood. I will say, though, that I think that is somewhat of a post nine eleven I like. Maybe that is a difference that were seen here in terms of comparing to the evaluations in Vietnam and with the kurdish evacuation, is lake You know, there's not this looming question if you know of security concerns- and there wasn't in those cases in the same way,
right now I ve meant anything. I think definitely with Vietnam is, I mean his interesting. I guess I was reading some about those or politics around that recycling of all those does. Vietnamese refugees was not with some particularly popular with the public, but there was a bipartisan buying among elite It's because he was seen as part of the plan the Cold war project trade in which people felt confident that these were You know anti communists, which was what we wanted in the it states, and I mean if you, Get like tromp was on the campaign rail- and he was saying he was again- allow any Muslims into the added states under any circumstances, and that was that we see controversial position for him to take, but it did not stop him from winning the election you know taking the most hard core Islamophobia stance possible and there's just like
a lot of suspicion of Muslims coming in the United States of America, Guenaud sick already concerns and other sort of more more hazy. issues around it. That. You don't has obviously been weighing on this for years, as well as in the continued situation. Yeah, absolutely anything. That is a difference here. It's interesting. I was recently reading that at one point, when Trump was considering banning of Rockies as part of his Travel Ban Powell See there were certain outrage on the part of his advisers, because many of these essay ease would have been blocked as part of that, so he eventually reverse course, but I think it is a question of whether that actually would have ended up hurting him in any way politically, and it's just a bit of it, depressing situation. What I mean, I think you know like that.
Thing- is sort of parallel right to Vietnam. Situations like stakeholders in the Republican Party were invested in the US. I ve program like they wanted it to go forward and they don't they yelled at Trump and they To change his mind on Iraq in that sort of modified Muslim, bear but I mean there's been I've been doing what we ve seen plenty of reporting righted. Frumps idea at least was to withdraw from it Ghana Stan. and seemingly to really minimize the number of afghan people who would be brought in you. Because they're not I mean this, lots of different ways. This can go together politically, but, like obviously but one point of view about Ask him more. Is that by this was pointless and bad, and you know people didn't want to marry soldiers fighting it and they also want afghan refugees coming to the United States, and I mean it
that was very much trumps view and binds view is not exist. Firstly, the same as that, but it's not totally different deepen the writing. This just where his ego we see, vitamins, America, first type, foreign policy coming through as well. In some ways like his stand, on their sooner while coated, with like more You know humanitarian minded language, I'm not sure like how different his priorities were in the situation than that trumps Why? What do I mean? They call it. I think Jake Sullivan's slogan right was foreign policy for middle class, which is now the same as America. First, but again, it's not like that different right in it conceptual underpin Why did you take that idea seriously like you were asking what is the level of interest of a typical,
middle class, American, in prolonging the war in Afghanistan and the same not really legitimate interests what is the interest of middle class Americans in waste Lange, large numbers of afghan refugees and by also not much Andrews right. I clear entry in evacuating american citizens who s public. You know I mean what what they're doing right. In fact, and people who already have visas of active people who, U S, citizens evacuating prominent role thence evacuating citizen other Western, allies. It's not a view that aspires to the kind of big cosmopolitanism that you know, George W Bush started a lot of wars, but like under theory that we were spreading democracy globally and that's the moment politically that the Us Army programme comes out of yeah and I don't know, I do wonder to what extent the essay
issue. It is somewhat unique like. I think it is an interesting she that brings together, like you, know, the cause, it's so deeply embedded with the efforts of the? U S, military. I do wonder what extent like it is a bit unique in the sense that it brings together a sort of red, try, blue tribe. I think going back to your point earlier in terms of dislike You know what is the willingness on the part of the average American to bring in you know x, number of refugees. I think that like. Maybe it is the number of its more divisive than the concept in and of itself, but I do think that people feel an obligation recognise that the EU has an obligation to help people who ate at the swore effort yeah. I do think that that is a motivating issue, though perhaps you know it looking to an ex election cycle, not as a vote. as other issues, certainly but like in terms of how they view the american withdrawal? I do think that that is a major issue, So what are we looking at going forward? As you have said, we have a lot of people
now a sort of in third countries, and The evaluation programme, at least if things go according to plan, is going to come to an end pretty soon, but all these people who are in whether there in cutter or Germany or wherever else, presumably we are going to still just gonna, be choices, they're gonna, stony, how I mean what are we going to be looking at this fall yeah. So I think our big question for me is just how long these he bore gonna end up staying in those third countries? Basically, the: U S is agreed, not how's, Afghans at its term air base for longer than ten days, but we don't really have a lot of clarity in terms of the other countries where people are being relocated. So I think that there is a question of whether Afghans will end up waiting in these third countries for prolonged periods and do you know how long. It might take two to bring them to the: U S, departments, region.
Has started allowing some asylum applicants who are sort of further along in the application process to come to the Eu S, but it's not clear whether that's happening on a wide scale. At this point and Other kind of concern here is in there being currently flown to one of three army bases in the: U S: four plus attacks s Fort Mccoy in Wisconsin and for Lee in Virginia and those basis, This point sort of preparing to receive as many as twenty thousand afghan altogether. But some immigrant advocates of kind of raising concerns earns as to whether they could stand us. This is for a long term basis, possibly more than a year before being transferred to their final destination. And that's kind of concerning, especially given that Lake Fort Bliss We have also heard about it. In the context of you know, the passing of migrant children is currently the subject of an ongoing.
Government watchdog investigation over allegations of abuse in poor condition, so I think, been just Roma human rights perspective that something that's gonna, be closely watched in here s. Another thing is just the capacity of these refugee resettlement agencies to get people to their final destination. You know, as we were saying, they were decimated under the Trump Administration and they offer all. kinds of services to these essay views, as well as other refugees who may be coming from Afghanistan. You know just basic necessities temporary housing, cash assistance, job training, etc. So how quickly we might be able to get people out of third countries in and out of these military bases really actually does depend on the capacity of? U S. Refugee agency is so to whatever extent the by an administration can wrapped up in the next few months, it's gonna, offer us a lot of clarity and show you talk about. Third countries have been using you, you noted the the: U S bases in Germany and that's a kind of death as like Asylum, unique
stance in which we ve sort of promise that german government that people will not be staying there, for very long. But what? What are the other countries that are currently housing? Substantial numbers of Afghans, Yes, oh it's cutter, ITALY, Spain, Kuwait, United Herb it's an Bahrain and then I think there is also a question of whether there might be agreements with other countries or it owed also just Afghanistan's neighbouring countries like Pakistan, and something that will just end up- maybe willingly so but hosting a lot of refugees who have just been trying to cross the borders. Even at borders are technically closed, so this sort of the places where I think we see the most international aid going to at this point? But you know, I think, for refugees That is why there is not really an emphasis sure set up to receive them that, like the? U S has been deeply involved with so Biden just now, like there is an addition.
five hundred million that's been freed up for this purpose, and others, but that infrastructure Blake didn't eggs. Just before August Fourteenth and do whatever accept. setting that up now it is very kind of hurried operation, so I think a question for action swear reaching these third countries is like you know. How do I support my feet: we like how do I get a job? If I dont speak the language, I think those are just sort of basic survival things that have to be hammered out very imminently. This is something we should always keep in mind is that you know this always on media conversation around refugees in in the? U S sitting in Europe but things like that. But whenever there is a conflict zone I mean the largest number of refugees, inevitably just show up in the neighbouring country You know whether that's that's Pakistan or whether its in in some of this territory has only been newly,
run by the Taliban in you could. It depends what happens, but you could see people fleeing to take a stand and whose biggest and other places there and you know those governments a there like not great. In general, then also don't have on resources, and yet you know I mean there's a lot of questions about how. how that could go and what could be involved in the questions about like the Talibans own conned, right. I mean I'm really they won't do anything to horrible in West to gain international recognition and be seen as a legitimate. If not you know, admirable governing entity, but we don't really know right. I mean it's not unusual for wars to produce large numbers of people spilling over into the borders of the immediate neighbours
Yeah, I think at this point it seems like there is some, at least in the outer provinces of Afghanistan, like some control over travelled through the borders like so I dont know to what extent these people will be allowed to flee, or even if they, you know. I think another question is here the? U S is in helping those people necessarily evacuate at this point, so they would have to do it on their own accord with our own money. So just the extent to which there are even able to get to a third country. I think right now is to your credit. the question is is their stuff. I mean you know. If beer listening to those people are concerned, I mean: are there like good job too late, to go that that a person can try to Hell Afghans or or other refugees and in need of some kind of assistance as the United States Maybe does the right thing in some cases you I mean, I think, like, if you're a listener going to any one of that sort of major. U S,
Gee resettlement agencies and other they take private donations like that, but I think you can also volunteered work with them and help some of these refugees that up in their final destination, I've just been helping them get comfortable. situated in their community. But you know, I think another interesting thing dimension here, which angrily watching is whether the Biden Ministries, and could implement a programme allowing for private sponsorship of afghan refugees, This has been something that's been talked about for years at this point, but Biden issued an executive in February. That was kind of ordering the relevant agencies to to get started on that basis That would mean that private individuals and community groups, not just these big refugee resettlement agencies, that received government funding, could support additional afghan refugees perhaps even exceeding the current twenty five thousand refugee camp, that Right was to be setting later this year. So I think that can be something watch and we could,
actually see a lot of like community groups and in any images individuals deciding that they want to bring over afghan refugees on her report. ok, but I mean that's good, I mean I would really urge everybody to look into that and see she would. Do I will let you go now called, but thank you so much for joining and helping out thinks it's always to our sponsors, thanks to our producer nets. sabotage and the weeds will combat hunters the cut, is applied cast from New York magazine, but it's much more than that, Thirty minutes a week where we really wrestle with ourselves we're talking societal expectations, race, sex career ambitions and our bodies. I Spend our time on Instagram. Looking at health at any size. Nutritionist take talks and unify I've unit.
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-21.