« The Weeds

After asylum

2020-02-11

Jane and Matt join as Dara explains her reporting on the new reality at the border.

Related material:

"“Women to One Side, Men to the Other”: How the Border Patrol’s New Powers and Old Carelessness Separated a Family" by Dara Lind, ProPublica

"Two Gay Immigrants Left Everything For Safety In The US. Instead, They Were Sent To Guatemala." by Hamed Aleaziz, Buzzfeed

"The demise of America’s asylum system under Trump, explained" by Nicole Narea, Vox

White paper

Hosts:

Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox

Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica

Jane Coaston (@cjane87), Senior politics correspondent, Vox

More to explore:

Subscribe to Impeachment, Explained on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, Pocket Casts, or your favorite podcast app to get stay updated on this story every week.

About Vox

Vox is a news network that helps you cut through the noise and understand what's really driving the events in the headlines.

Follow Us: Vox.com

Facebook group: The Weeds

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Support for this. Episode- comes from click up we're losing out just three hours every day, switching between all our work apps, but you can get them back with clear up a flexible platform. Brings all your essential tools in one place. We can prioritize tasks, collaborated, docks check with your team and track goals, so companies like Oberon web flow use click up as their mission control Centre for placing every other after we're using before cook up even guarantees to help you save one day week and get more done. It's completely customizable, it's free forever! So try click up today at click up that calm, slash the weeds support for this
so comes from indigo at INDIGO brings together leading companies committed to activating the full potential of agriculture to address the climate crisis in partnership with innovative businesses, farmer, scientific partners and informed advocates. We can re. Imagine agriculture for the benefit of people and the planet. Farmer, Casey, Bryant Bamberger says our industry hives biggest Blackburn, how change our environment and working towards a better future learn more. Indigo Ag com, Recode, Hell, yeah control, substances, although weapons, another seven, recently buxom tests network a matter glaziers pillaging coastal public. As Caroline, I wondered talk about TAT recently published a investment
peace yeah, the thing about the difference between being it for public envying rocks dot com is that now, when I published a piece, it's an event: first just like a week day, the slower metabolism I was we should we should talk about, dares big bees, she's been working on, so I that that then I actually read it and is still depressing its Yes, it is not exactly a heartwarming and uplifting closer. I only have a happy ending, which is one of the things about. Investor, journalism, or at least using one of the things about kind of writing about immigration policy in the Trump era is that I constantly have this dynamic when reporting out pieces, where, whenever anything good happens to someone I am following, I have to have a conversation with myself and or editor along the lines of is the
still a representative story, because many stories dont have happy endings endocrine, not like you know. That so so it creates this weird perverse incentive right, where you end up rooting against good things to happen, grant who you you know have interacted with and care about it, because it wouldn't make what is this about as we listeners know because it's been kind of an act that I've been grinding, that certain other folks in kind of immigration world have been grinding for the last year. The Trump administration has put a lot of effort into instead of taking in asylum seekers when they arrive in the US and keeping them in custody or letting them yo be released. The community, while they way for their asylum cases, they found various ways to kind of just to get them out of the. U S as quickly as possible. The best doubtless one of these is known as the remain in Mexico programme. Its officially called the migrant protection protocols are empty and it means the people do have asylum cases in the. U S,
but they are sent to sent over the border to Mexico while they wait for those asylum. Now these aren't mexican asylum seekers. These are mostly Central American, but also other latin american migrants, now even brazilians, who don't necessarily even speak, Spanish Arby's You know some being on the level of fifty thousand. Although no count is super consistent on this people have been sent over the last year to wait, I'm more Currently they ve started piloting things that don't actually give people full asylum cases in the US system at all some pilots that just deport people like they give them expedited review and then deport them quick. And more recently just sending people who are Honduras and El Salvador to Guatemala to ask for asylum okay now the thing about all of these is the decision about who goes where whether somebody stays in the U S goes to. Guatemala goes to Mexico. That's entirely up
border patrol and the second differ, even where you are one of the things things you get in your story which, just to give everyone will put it in the show notes. But it's called women to one side: men, the other, how the border patrols, new powers and old careless is separated a family. But one thing you you briefly briefly. That if you are and Eligibility Q, asylum seeker, a you go to El Paso verses. Sarah Disco, you may have an entirely different experience. The right of veto right Elaine, given he lay very vague, like maybe you should consider not sending people to Mexico here if they're in these circumstances, but their very clear that it is up to individual offers too officers to make that decision and designers have likely not received any training about how to recognize threats or how what asylum seekers should or could look like, and I think one of the things that you did really well and the story which I strongly encourage everyone to read is
just how shambles panda just abject yeah. Just in terms of like. Oh, we didn't write down who you have that this child was this person's son or this person's child, and so we have no idea. We don't know where people are supposed to be: it's not even mistakes. It's just like errors right. The If the folks that the code of family that referred to in the headline that I was following for this story, I am, I was down in El Paso, whereas in september- and he knows into a lawyer, and she mentioned that she'd actually been working with someone who had spoken to envy berry up and if they were working on and of remain in Mexico case, which make a lot of sense, because the Barry, is not close to the border, but what became clear was that the
you're in the Bay area, was representing the mother and had reached out to this lawyer in Texas to find the father of the family because the Father and son had been sent back to Mexico under the remain in Mexico programme. The family had come together, at least as far as we knew at that point, they were saying that they had come together and there wasn't any evidence otherwise, but they had been told to get on separate buses when they got apprehended. They got taken to the same border patrol station, but they got taken separately, so they got put into processing separately, and that was it and one of them got released into the. U S in the end. You know that one, what mother and her. You know twenty month old daughter there, we want. The daughter got allowed to go to the- U S but the father in six year old Son, because they ve been put on the bus with the men. I ended up, separated from them and got sent back to two are is ended at that point been therefore nearly
for months ultimately, as I was following this family through after a bunch of hoops to jump ruined attempts to get them reunited, didn't work, ultimately border patrol kind of decided that they were going to take them, the remain in Mexico Program and allow them to reunite, but that happened as suddenly and unaccountably as these separation to begin with, so I was able to actually you know, go with them as the family reunited for the first time in four months, but it had been it it wasn't the result of. Oh, you know we held the systemic accountable, and they did what they were supposed to do. It was this power that exercised to separate the family without any consequences. Wasn't then able to reunite the family without any consequences? So it's a bit of a tricky subject for an investigative peace, because it away its writing about kind of the ads
sense of processes or anything written down, and you know you do have the kind of prove than inner eight. I had a kind of proved the negative that there wasn't any reason that this family would have in separate in processing which ultimately was able to do, but we do know how many of these there are. There is no reason to believe that this family been reunited. If the lawyer hadn't been essentially, you know it hadn't, ten emailed a bunch of sea BP lawyers and and of leadership, the port of entry in wars and in saying this is taken. You need to fix this because otherwise we're gonna start escalating. It's just react no way of knowing whether this is something that happens all the time with something that they are taking any more care with. Now there they could be sending people to Guatemala, or if this is just arrived,
action of a madness that you know exists there and carelessness continues to exist even as border patrol art as overwhelmed as they were in summer last year and part of the story here Is that a certain decision. Making function has been pushed. Sort of downstream onto the border patrol? Did they didn't traditionally exercise regiment. Would be there at the border. Apprehending people who are sinking cross and then people who made asylum claims they would hand off right to ice, was in charge of detaining or not all and there's a their asylum officers who are part of you see I as and there is an immigration court, so so there were like various decision making nodes but like the border patrol was like like a permeable barrier at
the border right, it's like perfect. If they caught you and your bag was full of drugs like they would arrest you, because that's a crime and if they got you and you are making an asylum claim. You had the credible fear hearing. Right, but even then you it was going to be the you may recall from last summer, when there was all of the outrage about conditions in border patrol custody, that border patrol sees its job is getting people out of its custody as quickly as possible, generally sending them to ice. So even though they did have a certain initial paperwork function, ice was ultimately a making this at the decisions about like who should be released and who should be detained and be. It was kind of a second step to catch any care since that had happened in border problems in paper. Work is not generally considered to be something that border patrol takes as a particularly important and Osman
while part of its jaw. Clearly nobody, you no cops road there, not something that didn't make it into the peace, but I spoke to. Someone who is currently in the government is just worked with border patrol and they said they don't understand. That what they write on the forms actually affect somebody's case down. The road they just think of it is like the drop down menu. You get it done to get it done and there have been lots and lots. There's lots and lots lots of evidence of border patrol agents, just kind of copying, and he's staying from one thing to another, you you'll have these obviously absurd results like, in one case, a three year old child was Martin form as saying that they came to the? U S to work. Because that's just what had been copied and pasted but when you were being sent to ice custody as quickly as possible. I would be able to catch that or you'd. Have your initial aside screening interviewing, the asylum officer would be able to catch that
right now border patrol. In addition to having this added power to decide. Do people go to me. The code. Do they go to Guatemala? Do they go into one of these expedited review programmes they also Oh, have there without a net on the paperwork side and there's no end, nation whatsoever that there's any more care being taken with paper work as a matter of fact, internal review of the remaining Mexico program, which got leaked to Buzzfeed in part. Late last year, said that they didn't even have standardized forms for what happened when they sent people back to Mexico like they rolled this program out very gradually, it was one location and then they send it to another location. So what appears to have been the case is different parts of border were ranging different forms on their own rather than any kind of. Oh. This is how we ve been doing it over in Sandy Sidra. Oh, this is so it's just there's no
the occasion that this is happening in a way that not only makes it clear to border patrol agents that what there doing is now much more serious and has great consequences, but that its not being done in a way you would rule out a policy. It's just being done in a way you kind of do it. You would. You would rule out a new field tactic and give total discretion to the field agents to impose attacked and then obviously so then some of the the secondary context is that the message from the top about this is not what we need to do: a really good job of correctly sorting people into destinations that will be safe for them and safeguard their their rights. Right I mean there did that the Trump Administration is trying to do things that wall pass judicial scrutiny
like the objective here is to make it so that people don't come make silent claims in the United States went in like, like people understand that ride like we're, not Eddie. It's here on this pod cast. An issue may also aren't at the border patrol right that, like what the bosses are asking them to do, is make people not want to come here right. So like it's, not it's not like gonna, be the end of your career. As you know, the shift supervisor at one particular border station, if, like there's a mess up and selling sad happens to a family life, what's gonna be a problem for you is, if, like you, get the reputation as like, you definitely want to come to this guy sector of the border because he is being generous right That's not like the goal here is not to treat people. Yes, they're working a difficult line because you don't you know as much of a problem as it is that this that decisions about whether you get to stay
the US and make an asylum claim or not are not at all, based in what is the asylum claim. You're ultimately going to make like the family in the story to this day has never actually had the chance to explain to an official of the United States government why they left Honduras. It's just not its! That's, not part of the trio process, and that sounds extreme arbitrary by, on the other hand, there is a process, that exists for determining whether someone has a good enough claimed that they should be able to make it in full, and that's that that the Trump Administration is currently abrogating. So you can kind If I understand you know what they're you're saying that all of these strategies do a good job of you know that they make it easier to hear legitimate us claims by streamlining knowledge, intimate ones which is slightly double talk because, of course, they're not making that decision. There does assuming that, if you are willing to jump through all these hoops, you must have a or claim roar. We must be able to just hear it more efficiently.
What it means is that they are kind of making. These, are there they're just they have to just flatly assert that there is absolutely no differ. It's between being sent to Mexico and given a court date in the? U s that you're like shipped through the port for in it, you have to show up to her deported war is like four hundred and thirty in the morning or whatever, because you're hearing is at eight hundred and thirty, and you know it's going to take several hours to get through that, there's no difference between that and being in the: U Dot S able to kind of go, find legal help, and that's I mean that's flat leaf everything we've seen about the way that they is court hearings are working is the are in fact totally different. Did dockets are overloaded all the time that there is very that you really don't get any access to lawyers when you're in the? U S and
you re Mexico. Lawyers are willing to go or don't wanna, take these cases because their being so expedited and rushed through they're going to some of the judges and the system that have the that already have like the lowest approval ratings or increasingly third kind of teleconferencing in judges from elsewhere. The hearings aren't open to the public, and so you know you have the rhetorical. Well, we're not making decisions at the beginning of the process because ultimately, they'll get the chance to make their asylum claim and then be in practice. Fact that this decision I border patrol at the beginning of the process ends up having massive implications for whether or not you are ultimately able to stay in the. U s- and I am not at all to say anything of like the people get and to Guatemala who don't get to make claims at all, but so yeah, ok, here,
I think we should. We wish distinctions here yet and help people understand where is set Guatemala's yet you're, so you can make an asylum and part of the Trump Administration's concerned. Concern about this whole thing is that people com with no regard for their prospects of prevailing at an asylum hearing that what they really want, issues too released into the interior of the United States pending a hearing, because then they can work. You do whatever connect with extended family Bobby Bob, ah so remain in Mexico is supposed to solve allegedly solve that. Yes, that's right, I did remaining in Mexico by design is like not that great so you would only want to do it. If you thought you would really prevail at your asylum hearing, because the goal is,
get to the United States under remain in Mexico. The only way to get to the United States is to win at your asylum hearing, whereas DORA paw you at some time in the US you might just skip out fun fact. The few people who have been in view of asylum, claims have been approved by an immigration judge via the Romanian Mexico programme. At least some those cases they have been sent back to Mexico, because the government has said we're going to appeal to Oh in theory, sure that is the only way to get through them to the US. In practice it is not a guarantee, but then what you're saying is that your actual prospects of prevailing at the asylum hearing are themselves deeply, impact abso, whether you are able to push that case from inside the. U S where we have american immigration laws errors were here in Mexico where by deficits
you're, an american attorney. Add expert in dealing with the american Immigration court process like you're, not gonna, be in Mexico right Ray end, you know they're always has been, and I think it's because immigration I generally federal law. I think that this can be a little bit tricky for people to have their heads round, but there he's already a certain amount of geographic variation? How likely you ought to get your asylum claim approved? There's this weird Sis where jurisprudence it's like simultaneously set by the immigration court system which, if you're weeds listener you'll remember, is under the Department of Justice. So it's not a fully independent court system, but also so jurisprudence is set through federal courts and so in, like the ninth circuit, they ve precedents It's a little bit easier to make an asylum claim based on, say, being a member of a family that's being targeted than it is in the fifth circuit
the vessel owners taxes, this circuit does include tax and then I started, as you can tell you, that kind of all. Ready did exist to a certain extent. Some judges were more lenient than others. Some cities have more pro bono, immigration, lawyers than others very quickly, because that was something actually wanted to get talk about. The differing understandings of what you can receive asylum or caught up in that you ve talked about is how asylum seekers who are fleeing violence coming from, government considered very differently from say, elder b, T people who are seeking, who may not be being persecuted by the government writ large, but. Everyone around them or in this particular story. They are talking about you. This is a couple who is being threatened by gang violence, rape and you David one of the people. You talk to you, he was shot
Why his uncle and his sister were murdered and you so he is experiencing violence coming from a specific group of people right, but you ve talked before about how the current It has very differing views on whether or not that constitutes a true threat. Right I mean it's easy fundamental truth of asylum law that there are people who are absolutely convinced they will be killed in their home countries and might be right and do not done the last qualify for asylum. The question is at what point does The danger that you are facing fall into the category of persecution Remember that asylum laws. We know it is really rooted in the response to the Holocaust, and so there's this idea that the most inescapable persecution is based on a group identity probably an immutable group identity and that it's coming from the government, and so the text of a
Asylum LAW says that you can be persecuted based on one of five things: is nationality political opinion, religion or membership. In a particular social group, one These things is not like the others. Obviously, particular social group doesn't have the same kind of like readily obvious meaning and so a lot of this kind of beer jurisprudence. Varies by jurisdiction to jurisdiction depends on how do you define a particular social group and what counts as being targeted based on that versus? Just just like you come should he placed your life kind of sobs, your fleeing generalised violence or your fleeing a personal vendetta like those two things. Definitely don't count as asylum are definitely not cut for asylum. Some kind of group is targeting in the middle does so this particular case this this ways case was really it's a bubble case current asylum law because they
definitely are under threat and the entire family is definitely under threat, but there are not under threat from a government the government of they'd. They tried to move to different places in Honduras and they didn't it didn't necessarily protect them. So there as an argument to be made that the government is not sufficient to keep them from facing this, but leg. At what point? Do you say that there are persecuted beast and be based on. You know the family as a whole is being targeted and in a one of the kind of twists and in this story is that there was a precedent issued by attorney general. Our last summer? That said, you can Make asylum claims based on the your family being targeted unless, like everybody, in your society knows who your family is. So unless it's like Kardashian level fame. Essentially, you don't get to say my family is a particular social group. That decision came down after this family had entered view s
been separated and in theory, mother of the family. Who was at that point living in the in San Jose? have fun in an asylum application. The other, like weird thing about this case, is that they never bothered to file her paper work with the court, so instead of having an appointed hearing with an immigration judge, she had to like apply proactively for asylum. As you come on a visa, but she could have file that application before this decision came down, except that she had been separated from her husband and her from her partner, and so in order to get him included her asylum application. She had to wait until they could get married, which, given that they were in two different countries, is very difficult. So because of kind of that in a casket chain and chain of cause and effect, ultimately, by the time she filed her application, this the president had come down, and so the laundry
sure claim is being adjudicated is actually less favourable to her than it would have been if they ve been kept together to begin. Let us no break is then I want to talk about that sort of big picture policy context It feels like you, don't enough hours in the day to get everything done. It might be because you're missing out on three of them were hours girl, they probably fell into a deep dark. A bits opens up when we switch between work. Apps, add those three hours to all the production family miss out thanks to at home, distractions, disorganization fatigue. It's no wonder the days feel too short. Work should work and with click up, it does put up his head. Flexible productivity platform. That brings all your work into one place. That's all you're, chats, apps docks and tasks. One central S Place Mission control companies, uber and Google use click up to make their days more productive and manage projects, people and goals more effectively,
of all sizes and industries, hookups, blazingly, fast features, and one thousand plus integrations became- must have for anyone wanting to track manage to tackle their work in one place and your hours back with clear up trade for free today for free up that palm slash, the weeds If the last year's harvest anything it's that we don't what will happen next, but there's one thing we can all be sure of the only future is one we can all share and in the charge in building that future is mercy core with over forty years of humanitarian work under its belt building together is a mercy course DNA and, as the climate this increases their partnering with those on the front lines, making resources more accessible to farmers across the globe. Strengthening communities against escalating natural disasters and ensuring people have. Who's, they mean to thrive mercy cores, north matters,
do it alone. That's where you and I commend together. We all have the power to reshape the world when it seems like every day brings a new crisis when every news alert makes you want to throw your phone across the room, we may start to feel a little powerless, but mercy course here to remind us. We don't need to through community based action. We can make change. We are nothing if not in this together. What's next, up to all of us learn how you can be a part of what possible at mercy core dot. Org,
M e r c. Why C, o r p s dot org, I think, is very important because I mean different judges my world differently, but I think it's pretty clear that the view of Bill bar and the view of Chad, Wolf and the view of their predecessors in those positions at justice and homeland security is that it should not be. The policy of the United States to exist central Americans fleeing Emma's thirteen and what's the other one barrio eighteen there, there are a few that they're just the to generate the general phenomenon in which this family's case fits right.
It is a person living in the northern triangle. Their family comes to be targeted by the local hegemonic criminal organization, and so they flee for their lives to the United States that, like the powers that be dont, think those people should be given asylum in the United States. Right, like that's, what's everything else that happening in administration of asylum cases flows. I think from that policy conclusion right that they think it would be bad if a because they believe that, if it was easy right right to get asylum in the United States on the basis of a heavy, but even if the fear for your life is completely bone of fright that
there is in fact so many people who have perfectly bonafide fears of gang violence in Central America that if it was easy to get asylum on that basis, a lot of people would come, they would get asylum and, That would be bad for the United States of America remains today. If they learned of the idea that leg, because it's not baked into the definition, is not baked into traditional understandings of asylum that you get to claim asylum because you live in a failed state. Like the difference between I'm being targeted by gangs, and my government can't protect me versus I just live, a government, that's not capable of providing for my basic needs. Like the ladder of those, is not considered generally re to allow you free rein to migrate anywhere else graduates like there's no dispute. Generally speaking
There's this kind of like gang edge case, but there's stone dispute at all that, just because you live in Chad and it's incredibly poor and there are no prospects for economic growth like that is not a valid basis for asylum. Right even though, like it's terrible- and so you know- I mean I m. Giving that's important- is that this is such a heartbreaking story like I'm sobbing red. Of it, who you know, feels that he's been abandoned by his mother when really they see no arbitrary bureaucratic. When he was saying that lake we left me mother, unjust lake, its vote, especially because I think the thing that gets me about this. That makes me just sit, myself and stared wall for awhile is that we won't know what the ramifications of all of this are free ear for, and this is happening a lot like this. It's not like you. You were talking about how you were unsure, whether or not to tell this story, because it ends relatively positively.
Emmy relatively I'm really stretching the definition of relative, but just the fact that, like this is for the horror of the story, this is a relatively optimistic outcome, and this is this is happening across the country and its happening to kids, who have? Understandably no idea what's going on, and just the ramifications in the enormity of the ramifications is kind of overwhelming yeah I mean it can be a this is linked to enter, put to pull back the curtain a little bit again leg. It can be really hard to write that in explicitly, because I am talking about people who I'm not I'm. I don't want to just for the sake of of saying what bad things could happen. Kind of overwrite. I you know what I saw, which was a very happy reunion and in conversations since with the Emily. They definitely like have concerns about their ability to stay in the: U S, long term, but air. There isn't, if I'm not hearing from the
subject of my story, a kind of oh yeah? You know I still really kind of have this. These lasting issues- I don't want to write that in at the same time, you can't no, why an experience this traumatic is going to produce in terms of like the long term. Consequences are the things that are not willing to open up to somebody who they don't know that well about and it so it can just be it. I'm I think that those of us who were following family separation when it was happening as well as a kind of universal policy choice at the border in spring twenty, in. There was a lot of good public education going on there about the long term consequences of trauma, but is something that I think a lot in any of these stories is the extremity of circumstances that people are being put through is itself the kind of thing that
In other circumstances, you could imagine being used the basis for an asylum right. I think this story, it's emblematic of what conservatives fear about liberals. Right, which is that this is so sympathetic, it so horrified to read about this family and the situation they faced in Honduras and where they were put through by the american government and, like you can't. I can't help but sympathise with them and want them to have like a super happy and re where they go, live in San Jose and they take advantage of the booming labour market in the Bay area and where the housing situation is like dismal by the standards Americans are accustomed to, but like actually like compared to Honduras, like its great, and it becomes a great american success story. Reddened like that's what I want. That's the outcome that I want for these people, but then, like the conservative,
shoulder the like. The many trump or or border patrol agent, or from voting guy, who I met a couple weeks ago and talk about this with, is that. Look, there's billion literally billions of people on the planet with very sad lives whose circumstances could be greatly improved by moving to the United States and like what are you gonna do right, like the reason they dont all come moved to. The United States is that they are not allowed to that treatment of people who try to move here without a valid visa is in fact not that good, and so, even if your life is pretty bad in Cambodia or wherever it's like, it's not worth it right it. It's not worth it to try this, and if you try to generalise that, like liberal sympathy that we feel for this family you're going up with an unsustainable process that crushes the system, and you have all these immigration lawyers running around and like there
and what lawyers do as they represent clients in cases, and so it's it's, not your job as an immigration lawyer to say like Cosmic Lee. What should our policy be too low? he'll immigrants are at their very tunnel vision. I'm getting it's not. My job is not my job, but it's a. U dont see but Democratic Party members of Congress introducing bills that are like the open borders, active twenty twenty, because we think it sad that people can't all move here, denies it right, but it's like that that then I think that would be. I think it's a valid conservative pointed that we need a a policy that has systematic choices and like a stable equilibrium, rather than treating each individual per
then in the most generous possible way, if we're not actually prepared to to see through the consequences of what that would what that would mean that if they were, if there were a hundred and twenty two people living in Honduras, targeted by gang violence like this, it will be really easy to say: let's just fuck him, let him come right, but it's so many more people, and so I think that there are a couple I mean the thing about this: is it's not like the? U S doesn't have a wave of resolving them, conflict. Does that's what the asylum process is for right. It's for determining who are the people who fit within this category of things that we have through our legislative process determined? We want to protect me from now. That system is, you know you can argue that it's overloaded and inefficient, because overloaded, you can argue that it is, is one.
To kind of the cash and release concern of people absconding. You can make arguments like that instead of well the trumpet administration has made some attempts to change, the system, so that they can just kind of hold people in custody for longer, which itself has access council concerns, but like it is an attempt, to use the legislative process to fix this problem. But in addition to that ministrations. Current strategy is just. We are going to use executive branch powers to route as many people out of that process as possible, and so you know one of the kind of twists and turns border policy over the last year, was that if this family had come like a couple of months later, they wouldn't have even been allowed to make asylum claims at all, because in July the trumpet mistress and said you are elegance, for asylum. If you aren't from Mexico and came through Mexico to cross into the? U S, silly. Is that you know there's all of these dispersal programmes. None of this is
from the basis of their are it claims and illegitimate claims, and we want to sort out you know which ones for into the people. The kind kind of people who ve already agreed to protect its well. We might as well throw up our hands and see you know and and just try to prevent as many try to make it as difficult as possible for people you kind of game the legal right to stay in the. U S, based on having been me, you ass, that doesn't that's not it's it's not only a series of it is it Actually the same key, and, of course, is being made based on individual circumstances, except instead of being the individual's sympathetic circumstances of like. Oh, your story makes me feel bad the individual circumstances of well. You happened to come. You a station that has already promised to send twenty people to Guatemala today, or that has promised to till I send people to Mexico or well. We
the women and children on the first bus. We have to make our Mexico numbers with the second, but this is not to say that I know exactly that. That's what happened, but it is to say that there is no actual trial process that and so this isn't what we have in exactly this system- the conservatives want it's a system that conservatives can tolerate if it gets them to use or that conservatives appear to be willing to taller because it gets them to a broader. They are more interested in people not being able to take advantage of the asylum system than they are in, kind of lake negative error of worthy cases being turned away I think a lot of this really Are you more tolerant of positive or negative error? And you know it
The girls tend to be ok with some people who might not ultimately deserve asylum getting to stay in the United States if it means that no one is getting setback, it might be called. The thing is that you s laws actually pretty clear about this. It you're supposed to be very intolerant of negative error on this, that's why the initial asylum screaming is so generous and so yes, it's true that that to a certain extent a policy choice, but it's a policy choices, kind of baked into the law that your really really really supposed to bend over backwards to ensure that no one is sent back to a country where they're going to be persecuted. Alright, but let's take a break and talk about getting sick in Taiwan, Have you having trouble media your goals, focusing work if you have feeling Strasser having trouble sleeping better help is here for you, it's not us help class inside a crisis line better help is sick, here online professional counselling with real licence their best to have the tools to help you feel better is fill out a questionnaire about how you doing
better Hubble match you with your own licence, therapist under forty eight hours, no moral thereupon waiting rooms, no more limitations and the type of experts in the area and in between weekly appointments. If you need some more guidance, you can send free. Unlimited messages to council will get back to you with timely thoughtful answers if the man pretty therapists doesn't feel just right. Better help will quickly help you find a new one for free But he is a more affordable option than traditional therapy and financial aid is available. They I've done at different times in my life super helpful, but we all know like it's really expensive and sometimes hard to find some good better help is making this much more accessible, is great for these pandemic circumstances, but just like a cool model. So this I cast his sponsored by better help and listeners. The weeds get ten percent off their first month at better help. Dot com, slash weeds, get started today, better help, dot com, slash weeds, visit, better H. Help dot, com, weeds and join the
one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced better help. Professional if you're, a gig worker or self employed, there's some good news about PPP loans. You might want to consider millions of some employed workers may qualify for up to fifty thousand dollars in one hundred percent forgivable loans. You might be one of those millions as the lead in PPP loans, wobbly, can help you find out. They ve helped over three hats, thousand small businesses across Amerika get a ppp loan funds are limited, so apply now at Womply COM box and see if you qualify for a ppp loan w o m p l, why dot com, Slash Veo Ex wildly not a lender terms and programme rules apply. There's nothing. I live better than a good empirical studies that probably doesn't generalised that we can just
Why are the surgeons about God and there's nothing I like better than using the methodology section to cast aspersions on conclusions like that escape title is due. Elections make you sick. It is by hung how Chang and Chad Mire Hofer, and it says that yes, elections do make you sick in Taiwan. And they look at how better? Yes, elections, big toe uneasy Bolsa can technical. They look at healthcare use it in Taiwan. Tell on, unlike the United States, is one of these countries that has like a specified. This is the election time series So you can, you can look at window window and they that that healthcare use and expenses go up by nineteen percent during that window. Those of us who listen to Sarah Cliff and Dylan Scott on the pod a few weeks ago now that Taiwan has a single payer type healthcare system with very, very low
Oh, I am called payments as a you. You can show up whenever you feel I get, and people feel like showing up a lot more during election campaigns. Also, Americans believe that this is happening to them because they elect stressful stressful and making them crazy based on Taiwan data, it's totally true, it's not all in your head or if it is in your head, your psychological state is causing real physical health impact right. Wild thing about this tailored to the bank? Is they acknowledge that there are not looking at? Like Surely psychological care, but based on the medical data that they have they find suggestive evidence that it's not increasing mental health issues, It's only increasing use of its only increasing use it at the healthcare system for like physical ailments
Which, like you, have them on the way more able getting the flu say: Granville related more like Galileo, intestine array or like anyone in this paper there talking only gastro intestinal complaints like the kind of things and you could imagine being psychosomatic, but in order to grant the premise of this paper, you have two you have to. Thread the needle of okay, this election, stress, is causing the kind of physical ailments that I would associate with mental distress, but it's not causing mental health ailments, which seems That's a tough talk about what's been happening in our office. We have been victims. I have been a victim of I'm a survivor, I'm a survivor of the murder flu so many other people, so many other people and genuinely. If you are sick, please stay wherever you are people listening to this pod gas and other podcast on the Vocs media about gas network. Do not leave your home because it is a bit it. You won't want to
You'll be lying in bed unable to physically watch television just having the television on, which is why you should be listening to the we exactly. It actually was a really good time for podcast. If I had had any of the mental acuity to listen to anything, I did not at the time, but anyway, yeah everyone's getting sick, and I think that is it psychosomatic low did it make me feel like a here and garbage, can yes, it did the other thing about this kind of compressed election schedule in Taiwan and when we're talking about compressed like this he looks at presidential elections which have a for weak campaign period. And mayoral elections which have a one week campaign period, which is crazy go nuts, whenever great I mean, I almost worry that one week is probably too short for local elections in the? U S, because you know its people have enough trouble figuring
who's running in local elections. Anyway, you would read: maybe one article right up right, you we, we can only take one podcast for all of taiwanese mayoral raises. It would be so terrible anyway, because of that the hope. There's this idea. Those that events during those campaigns are more intense, that, like mass rallies in particularly they lay flag, injured, It is something that could be caused by these kind of like very intense mass rally burnt. It is rarely with, but this the strokes, not causing any injuries, no, it's not to a lot of the right mood. So it's not two thousand and three we moved the implication there is that, even though we think of this US campaign is being so stressful, and I think we really are in the throes of if your particularly in vested in democratic party politics. This is probably the part of the cycle that is going to be the worst for you, because things are happening. All the time and emotions are very heightened in the stakes are very heightened, but if it's
Slogger? It might actually be less acute in terms of the mental inflections, that's kind of the fury of like oh this. For weeks pain is going to cause a lot a lot, a lot of things that are then kind of resolved after the campaign. The other thing that you know that its interest but this is the american Study their comparing it too are actually studies there there. Some are some during the campaigns Ladys with there's. Also a lot of existing literature about how Americans responded to, in particular, the twenty sixteen presidential election, showing a lot of lake reports of higher stress. Increased court is all levels that kind of thing, and it does strike me as interesting that if your path sizing a higher degree of stress how- no physical ailments during the campaign that that's not going to persist after the election, presumably some people, especially if you're looking at younger
voters which they are, who tend to support, as they say it had to support the minority Party in Tehran. Presumably, some of those people would also be distressed about the result of the election and that's not something up. That's turning something that's turning up in the data and its curious is yeah. I know So by actions Maggie you sick, be even worse, thou if people want to rally basically don't participate in politics, just stay home behind your desk. Listening to podcast tweeting. Occasionally about your favorite candidates. I mean informative politics. A healthier tweeting d and just expressing yourself is the really effective way to engage in politics. Don't come to meetings, don't engage face to I'm just going to use a Marilyn Manson quote here, but you actually like out dark even that I don't agree with any of that What are your hands for the love of God? Phone
people do things from the comfort of your home. That's that aren't going to get you injured or that the murderer flew. I wanted. Pod soon about firm backing and texting and the evidence and whether that doesn't get yes, I think it's, I think, increasingly looks Well, I guess we should probably wait for the New Hampshire results. It's true will see what happens maybe by the next podcast will actually know who won the Iowa Carcass, never know. I have written to different winners and losers and the IRA Cox's article. Neither of them have run because we don't know what's happening and it is making me physically ill. I'm gonna need to do a special instrumentation of that, but, like the phone bagging right, imagine you are sitting at home. Relaxing listening to the weeds, your other favorite box, media podcast network shows a little pivot whatever, and then somebody just phones, you up and they're, like hey, I'm a total stranger I'd like to hassle you on behalf
political candidate. Nobody wants that. Alright. This is a separate episode for a separate time with some actual policy rating between and okay we're going to wrap it up, wrap it up thanks guys thanks so much, everybody should read the actual article. It's really it's a great reporting, also heartbreaking, but you know in a good way. I don't make feel like you've done something useful. Thanks to mark. I brodus our engineer. Jackson, beer felt our editor at Jeff, get back as a producer of the show ray and we're really excited, and we would be back on friend.
Transcript generated on 2021-05-21.