Ezra and Matt on the return of a virus that never went away.
"America Is Giving Up on the Pandemic" by Alexis C. Madrigal & Robinson Meyer, WaPo
"14 states and Puerto Rico hit highest seven-day average of new coronavirus infections" by Kim Bellware & Jacqueline Dupree, WaPo
"How Trump uses a crisis: Repeal rules while nobody is looking" by Rachel Augustine Potter, WaPo
Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox
Ezra Klein (@ezraklein), Editor-at-large, Vox
Jeff Geld, (@jeff_geld), Editor and Producer
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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w O m p L. Why dot com slash veo Ex wildly is not a lender terms and programme rules apply. I thought the country was better
thus, in some kind of fairly profound way and beyond, like my fear of the concrete consequences, its disturbed me, it makes me sad. It's like shaken my faith in society
hello. Welcome together, observing the beads on the box media pod cast network, a mathematical esias here today with as recline, we started doing these chats to talk about because ninety pandemic yeah we talk about other things to the new cycle got on to some other stuff, but today I think we wanted to come back to corona virus because the virus has not gone and in some ways it's making to come back and
it's kind of alarming, more more can do on the weeds man. So there is disagreement over whether not to call this a second wave or the continuation of a first wave in parts of the country. It is like the beginning of the first wave, but it really we did not stop krona virus. We did not suppress it. We deny
have a huge falling case. The nation wide and meanwhile, both in ways that are statutory of states have been opening up in ways that are informal like protest, but also even more informal than protests. We know that right or ship on subways, I can San Francisco Bart, has gone way up
no, that people are not doing nearly much social distancing with removing round geographically much more. So we are seeing a pretty big rising cases, and I want to set the stage her PET Helen Brands, while his an amazing
reporter article on a virus but on many things at STAT news sure it's on twitter, but I just think this is remarkable. The confirmed death toll from covert nineteen.
Two hundred ten thousand and in the United States has a couple days ago. She writes the. U S makes up for point to five percent of the global population. It is registered nearly twenty eight percent of confirm cover nineteen cases and twenty seven percent of the global deaths caused by the virus NASA
that might be better tracking, but certainly not all of it. So we're doing an unusually bad job handling us
meanwhile. The washing post reports that, since the start of June fourteen states and put a Rico, have recorded their highest ever seventy average of new current of our cases since append I make began again to some that might reflect better testing, but probably not all of it among
States are actually all these states include Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida Kentucky New Mexico, North Carolina, Mississippi Organ South Carolina, Tennessee Texas in Utah, so we are
entering into a period where it seems that case numbers are going up, but we have not yet seen given that those Tivoli about a fourteen day, like here
rising cases from some of the more recent openings or from some of the potential rise from the protests and meanwhile
simply weakening of any federal
or in general state energy, to keep a lock on this. The federal carnivores taskforce
disbanded were hearing a lot less from Tony found. She I'm Donald Trump.
Clearly moving on to other things, a person, the CDC has been overseeing testing Esther of this special testing. Our he's been sent back to the CDC to go back to his normal job
I'm in California, allay has been reopening like people are tired of quarantining for various reasons, all kinds of public players of loss Genesee to call for it
and meanwhile, the crown of Irish is not very interested in our politics. It is not very interested in what we want to do. I don't want to do. It is out there looking for people to in fact, and it
finding them. So I think there is a real possibility that six weeks from now things are,
bad yeah? In particular, I mean it does seem like in the growing states way which
need to be clear. It's a minority of states. Fourteen states is nothing, but it's it's almost to them, but that's a wonder with just highest ever seventy average, yet you can have others could be growing without having there
used aperture purchase, they are growing slower than pre lockdown northeastern United States, so
you know, precautionary measures continue to exist and they have some kind of efficacy, but not only is exponential growth, inherently scary, even when it is a low number in the exponent this summer
This was our chance. This hot weather, you can do a lot of stuff outside in the summer, is relatively safe,
schools. We're gonna be closed anyway during the summer, and if you have cases hire a month from now even higher.
Months from now, even higher three months from now, and then the weather just getting cold there.
You know you got a real sort of problem. I mean that this amount in the first wave versus second way would you alluded to are a little bit interesting right. I mean in the in the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic. Most cities have these very distinct, multiple
pulses in which in one way up and then one way down, it stayed low for a while and then my way up again in sort of a seasonal flu type cycle. It was the flu
We don't really seem to be saying, like the states that had very high case loads now, going back up into into high numbers. Is that we see states where the case loads, whenever all that high to begin with, opened up without like up real plan, to ensure that the numbers stay low. They just kind of felt come place
that, like there hadn't been a bad coronavirus outbreak in Texas, they have these restrictions in place. It's a politically conservative state, so they started lifting the restrictions, and now people are getting K
Is the politics are little muted because right now, a lot of it is in the packing plants and imprisons which are like socially marginal areas,
rather than you know, at ski resorts and international biotech conferences, as we kind of originally started this out.
And that's, I think, part of why this like stumbling into reopening has been sustainable, that the virus is kind of
when did its way into marginalized sectors of of society. That political figures are sort of comfortable writing off or saying you know, are as important as the need to have
a restaurant economy up and running, but I just have never seen any reason to think that it would state limited to those kind of groups and also mean just be clear, its that's an incredibly a moral political equilibrium. Yes, like it's
It's a disaster to just say we are going to become comfortable with krona virus, killing one
send it two thousand to three thousand people a day. If this keeps going up cuz now we're about one thousand. You know because it's going to pull like Donald Trump is not
no, the people who are dying which seem to like this and I ve been a moment Redondo. Some new some people got her on a virus and he got old but serious about it. But if that's gonna end its easy to imagine a strategy of nickel
act becoming the way we handle this and we just become inured.
You an ongoing disaster and look there complicated things you're right. It is the protests which were always very complicated question and calculation from prospective colonel virus right. People were facing two very different kinds of risk and in choosing to fight one event, the risk of exposing themselves to another, but it definitely created a lot of push back and
a lot of sense that a well the liberals who are calling for locked down in social distancing dont? Do it when they care about the issues are now so now there
this kind of weakening of like who actually had the
coal or scientific capital. To call for this kind of thing to keep going, which I think is going to
weapon eyes down on on any effort to do it again. One of the great horrors of this, isn't it the same community that that the afghan earmarking community that has been or felt endangered from the police it saw. Members of some community murdered like on video that without protesting, is also the communal
dying at the highest rates from krona virus right, and so there is just a chance here and maybe even likelihood for a really horrific and and long epidemic in a way that I think, should really Scareth and on one thing that I think is worth bringing into this. I think that
little, equal Ebery em around economic support is getting much worse, so we had this unusually stronger. Unexpectedly, strong jobs are poor last month, and that is the lad alot of pretty centre publicans, who have not picked up that law
cow spell. The three trillion dollar, I think, is called the Heroes act that would have, among other things, extend
six hundred dollar unemployment increase from July thirty first to the end of the year, did a bunch of things like state and local aid. Republicans looked at that jobs report and set gray the
economies is having the be shaped recovery. All those people warning that it would be wrong and, like their put their economic theory on this, has been that if you keep extending the things we were not going,
have to go back to work as are making more money from being unemployed. So they're not going to extend them. You're gonna have a building pandemic. Happenings was getting more dangerous out. They're not
ass and we're going to remove economic support from the economy. So people have like a like an eel
make excessive, so they don't starved, go back out into an economy when what we need to control the virus it to make it possible for people to do not do that worked me well, like most richer people are gonna, build work from home, and so, like the conditions are so
up here, for something really really quite bad and really deeply on unjust. Why am I think we can underwrite the extent to which state governments have been hung out to dry? My father owns a cabin in May and that my family is planning to drive up to in a couple weeks and yes, we ve got no office to go to and no camp fire kid to be end to be nice to be in the countryside. Him supplies tat to run around, so I've been paying attention to the political situation there and its clear that the governor of main has been
very reluctant to see a huge wave of summer tourists come into the state. She is very concerned. I think reasonably did that kind of seasonal travel surge is going to take a state that has very little corner virus anyway,
and he's going to essentially overwhelm debts. It's a low population world state with minimal resources. So the current
well is it? If you come in from outer state, you need to quarantine for fourteen day
is like for real deal, quarantine, and you know that was
We're gonna go, do it, I mean it's like my dad owns a house there's window there a long time and an end to the current. You do the call deal, but it would crush the normal tourist economy that they enjoy, because you know people want to make a week long visit stuff like that and as it has become clear to governor mills, that the federal government
coming to the rescue with money. You know she has been increasingly meeting to back down on these quarantine procedures and I think that the full process of caving on and the quarantine idea hasn't yet worked his way out. But it's
going too soon and its because they know they're, not gonna, have support in terms of trying to keep the population of their state safe from you know, a horde of vat weekend, tourists from New England, and so many places are facing that kind of
situation, where the Trump Administration's plan to use fiscal pressure to essentially force government.
Hours, to reopen at a more rapid pace and their comfortable with is really really working well and it's it's basically the opposite.
We did have a view on the show of like the different reopening pdf
and they all they all have the the opposite viewpoint. Trade. The viewpoint of all those pdf was that people would want to open up because it's boring
in your house all day right and like you would want it is economically destructive right, like a lot of people, are a lot of pain, but I mean that the government needed to restrain
that policy right and they were going well. These criteria you can reopen if you hit X Y, see as a map reopening would be painful
should do what we can to relieve the pay, but we flip that around me.
There will be no relief.
Everyone is being sort of forced into this into this scramble,
and the gating criteria from the CDC don't forget about the elaborate test and trace and Google's going to track you wherever you are, but just the baseline stuff. We're like well you're supposed to check in your hospitalizations and pause. If they're going up, that's all been thrown out the window completely and the press conferences are gone. Dr Foci is gone. Dr Burks is gone. It's like this true nightmare, where we're just kind of hoping for for the best, and it's not that many cases in Texas, even though they're at their all time, high but they're
supposed to shut back now, if the cases rapids, like that's the sign that you're reopening isn't working and if you're gonna reopen regardless like what, when does that ever end,
It were saying number one that other countries really have done this better. I mean there are countries like Iceland Night, like Museum of Beet, colonel virus like basically entirely
on their countries have kept very, very, very, very suppressed them are big countries like Germany,
much better job than where we ve done a bad job. So we took all this time and we wasted it, and I think this is like that. The really key thing here that it's not like there is a plan somewhere that somebody's gonna say: okay,
you know what I'm so sorry he like we fuck this up, give us another forty five days. We now know how to set up the testing tracing
prussian mechanism. Having watch did happen elsewhere and really think we can beat this thing instead is a distant country giving up. I think the semi optimistic version of this is that in the time we did do locked down and the sort of cultural recognition that this was a big deal. We have changed. Social habits in ways
what kind of stick at like forty percent or something right? So we don't by any means. How do you do a hundred percent adherence to mask wearing, but we have a lot more mask wearing than we had in February. We don't by any means he'll like people washing their hands
often his doctor found she wishes they would but people. I think we all wash our hands
more on average than we did before and for longer on average than we did before. You know people still do not Sicily distancing,
they were maybe in April, but their socialist, using more than they were in January on people who are more votes.
Right. Like older people, people comorbidities, they have a sense that this is really dangerous for them, so
I'm all our self segregating of corn, teeming at higher rates than than than others in the population were beginning to open up, and maybe you put all that together and, as you say like those arising cases, but you don't get a sort of New York city style
like disaster. Maybe you put all that together and what you end up. Having is one of the original goals of the bee flattened the curve thing is, it remains true, which is that we keep the health system from being overwhelmed, and so we manage to like increase the length of current a virus, but you never his situation
like people can't get a ventilator if they need one like that's a world with very high death toll, a mediocre and on this I think, is an important and persuasive ways method. There's a real difference between flattening the curve
so, like you, dont of Rome, your icy use and crushing the curse of people to die from four on a virus in huge numbers. Unlike what I think we have a chance of doing issues a continued flattening of the curve, which is to say we have just enough mitigation measures to keep icy use from becoming overwhelmed, but were accepting that colonel virus is going to go through a huge percentage of the population which has now it hasn't and that that means you know a dust hold its currently hundred ten thousand or so is going to become a death toll of three hundred thousand forums.
To five hundred zero unless we get a vaccine much quicker than we expected to. I will also say just like one thing I saw today that was very concerning something people pay attention to is a percentage of tests that are coming back positive and one of the Good news pieces of everything recently has been that New York City and the northeast generally, where the incredibly intense initial outbreak was, has been looking a lot better. So it's like, if you look at the country without the northeast cases, are going up, but to the extent they look like they're going down. It's because, like that outbreak, do under control over the past couple of days at the percentage of cases,
city that would have been positive, went from one percent to three percent now, maybe just a blip for some reason we don't wholly understand, but if that is sustained, you could see things getting bad there again like nobody thinks New York City is now imbue the corona virus, so, like things could get really rough. So one one question that you know, I think is a little bit of an only time will tell situation right now is how do we now that we understand the basic car virus dynamics is? Can we do a better job cuts,
do a better job of safeguarding their nursing home populations, because you know we ve always known elderly
vulnerable the nursing homes setting is not that great from my disease transmission standpoint and if you look at things that went really are why, like the Swedish heard immunity strategy like on paper, the idea of that strategy was ok. You need to protect the elder care homes and the reason to not lockdown is it. You can't keep the elder care homes isolated forever, so it's actually better for the youthful population to get sick faster so that you sort of blow through the virus, and then you need to worry is much, but they weren't at all able to isolate there. There nursing homes right- and so you know we talk about. Sweden, didn't lockdown the restaurants Data Ben
the school stayed open for young kids, but the people dying in Sweden were not the people going to the restaurants and certainly wasn't the little kids going to school. It was the exact same population that was dying in MILAN that was dying in New York, which is a very elderly population, and very particularly people who were in
in nursing homes in New York, and, I think, several other northeastern states. They had this disastrous policy where they told nursing homes that they had to readmit covered positive patients who were not so gravely ill that they personally needed to be. In the. I see you
in principle at least the country could now do what Sweden meant to do rather than what they actually did
and not do those readmissions into the hospitals that we sign in New York in New Jersey in Connecticut. So
How you know have better isolation. Protocols have the end. Ninety five masks, you know, understand all that stuff, but you ve light indoors different kinds of things like that. In that case, you could limit the death toll relative to what a sort of basic mathematical projection would would suggest you again, but that's all just pure speculation. We have successful examples of test.
Trace systems. We have successful examples of like pure isolation curve, crushing we haven't seen any place, pull off the Psych Nursing home pyramid
in America doesn't have the kind of quarantine system that would really support that. It's like if your husband gets sick at me, packing
plants and you gotta go to work cleaning bathrooms at the nursing home like what are you do like this? No you'll lose your job. If you dont come to work like you're, not sick, so you can take a sick day this nothing in place that would actually secure this kind of system. So it's more like a theoretical possibility, and not one I'm that excited about two questions present themselves here. One is, if things targeting bad again- and we ve seen this before right say like the spanish flu. The second wave was much worse in terms of death, told him
first wife. So it's very possible for this to get worse something circuiting bad again like what could we do or what could we be doing now and then I think the second related question is: is there the political capacity to do any of it? But I think it is just true that we waste are for shot on us and in the aftermath of wasting our four shot shot on this. A number of things have happened that are of Donald
on this key developed or maybe always had the political theory that what will really matter for reelection is the economy. I like better to have a lot more people dying from covered than down stock market. I do think what
your view on this and morality of the protests thing I did. The protests did damage to the like lockdown position that the right who didn't like did not want to be
down like it now feels like it has a cudgel it can you somewhat effectively and like it just in terms of raw politics? I think they are right. I think that the whether or not the protests were a good idea. I think they do damage here, and so I don't know like, even if we knew what to do that, their politicks,
leaders right now who, when you combine like all of the political difficulties of doing this, all of the polarization around it and like the frustration people have around like the idea that other people's essential activities are being allowed, but not their essential activities and then just the exhaustion of a population that has been to varying degrees in lockdown now for months and wants to see. Friends wants to see family wants to go to a restaurant wants to go back to their job, wants to get childcare wants, are children in school? I am just do not know like in a country
already didn't seem to have the political capacity to do this. Well, when there was political will to do it well like if we have a state capacity to do it well now that I'm not sure there is political will to do a well, I would be a little harder on the protests around this frankly, because so much of their discourse that I've seen on the protests and covered has taken an individual risk assessment frame. You know and has talked about how people need to balance the sort of risks that are involved with this with, but also the right
six of of the problems, and I and I and I get it like. I inhabit the same liberal intellectual circles as the people putting out these letters do or even talking to two journalists do, but it's not the freedom that was used to discuss the lock downs in the
first place when we were going in to severe restrictions in March and April. The message was very clear that, like the issue was it about you
risk and your individualized balance of the assessments. It was about a social obligation to the most vulnerable people and during the protest
really flipped like a lot of the deep political establishment and a lot of the public health establishment reverted to a sort of individualised risk assessment frame, and I think that that is going to just continue carrying forward that it's a sort of everyone for themselves. If your vulnerable, like, of course, don't go to the protest, don't go to the restaurant, don't find an airplane, but you know it's up to you as an individual to decide what you are comfortable with due.
And it's just always been the case- that the individual personal risk to a non senior citizen, non immunocompromised population is, is modest right and like people can go
can of do what they want with that, and that makes it so hard to foot back around right as infection spreads.
I might become more alarmed and thus become more hesitant to go back and do things you ebb and flow on that dimension. But it's like once you abandon the rhetoric having first, the Republicans abandoned the economic underpinnings of we're all in this together and then I think, progressives sort of abandoned the ideological and conceptual, and
paintings of it and we're not gonna. We ought to put their back together if Congress is unable to do a big economic rescue package now, definitely not gonna. Do it like in October right, like that's time, that's on how Congress works and it's not going to be possible to sort of like throw into reverse the like. Oh hey, it's not about you kind of stuff like
unfortunately, its it just seems dead to me, and it makes me wonder what governors are gonna be able to do at all to mitigate problems, either bidder the opposite view on
Protest leading the same conclusion, which is, I think, what made the protests are really hard issue. Is they worked off of the same risk assessment? I think that in a lot of different directions, people been comfortable, saying that the
it is a collective issue because, unlike on other issues, the question here is not your individual risk. It is a risky post, other people, s arrest. This issue poses to other people, so uncrown a virus yet
the young and healthy, but I don't care that you want to go to a bar because you could create a current of irish chain that ends up killing. My parent, similarly on testing is out,
Yeah the systemic racism thing is the same way and I think it's actually one reason why a lot of epidemiologist we're very one day study to spend it like, but you did not want to question it because it has the same dynamic that, like yes or a lot of people, for whom George Floyd's death does not actually speak to the risks they face in everyday life. But there are other people,
from a really daughters, and so that the same way that like corona virus was their business because was a step, a systemic risk. I think people were very cautious about opposing the protests because they were also a systemic risk and so, like you know, like
sure. It's easy for me to say: don't go protest when, like it's, not my community that feels like it has long been under threat from like oppressive policing, but so too
Are you come down on that? I think it goes to exactly where you're saying, which is what seems to me to be
me now, is like an individualised risk period
where the way we functionally handle corona virus is it it is about the risks.
You feel willing to take, and some people were either feel willing to take more or less risk, or I think this is really important- be only capable of taking more or less risk. So there is a difference between the situation of somebody who has their job has like a job where they make enough money and can work from home and, like the question for them, is like, do they feel safe, go into a restaurant or like do they want to see their friends and if so, how do they do it? Outsider inside relic,
there's a lot of options reality in the risk that's different than somebody who has lost their job, for whom the expanded unemployment runs out on July. Thirty. First, who needs to get a job who may be like
They do have a call morbidity right. Maybe they do have ceo pity or maybe they do have hypertension or diabetes or something they don't want to be out there in an
how to be in a in a world where the pain that makes it better than or maybe they live with their parent. They live with a partner who has who's immunosuppressed, but they liked and economically survive without going back out, and so they're going to be these like to like issues that are one. It's about
Individual risk people feel they face and then there's going to be like and and what they want to avoid or not want to avoid, and then it's going to be the individual risk that people would like to avoid. But cannot
because of the realities of life, trying to live in the economy that we have with where commerce is likely to go or not, gonna give them up
reality around this and I don't think
we have had a good conversation about individual risk
Like at all, I think it's very hard for people to assess the risks. I think people have should have weird views on. This are like things you do. It's him
we'd, be dangerous and things they do that likes him to me to be on not that dangerous risks really changed a pang. What the back,
situation of your city or a state or like, and so in some way. I think, like possibly the retreat position here like the fall back, is gonna, be to have a better conversation about like individual risk, so people can make more informed decisions right to go to an example. I think we ve talked about the shut before
I really hated it when you get these like a liberal skulls on twitter. Getting all mad at people going to the beach, because, like one way of keeping waughtown like sustainable, is electrical go to the beach I get in my area. The parks have closed that like the national parks,
parking regional parks. Someone can go, do something we can, but they have. All done is closed. Their main parking lots MA am or restrict their main parking lot. They don't get too crowded. These are really big places like I've been to like they're, not crowd had you should want many more people at them like we did, and so I think there was a really weird ranking of individual risk or people like not one
take like any risk for a minute, but now we're gonna get into a place where it's gonna go. The other way where people gotta be forced into taking much too much risk with a real, grievous causeway people will die. People will get very sick there.
We are not a wall like bear the scars of that in a potentially forever, depending on how this disease actually works and folks, I feel very grim about it right now. The wine optimistic now our strength as we wish. We did have
an interesting thing where, when Missouri opened up really quickly after they opened up, it turned out the two hair stylists and one of the salons tested positive work of a dainty and- and there was a lot of oh, my god, what a disaster, and so they tested the people. You know that the clients you been in there and it turned out that none of them actually got it and that adherence to masks had been you know very rigorous in there and then
sufficed to prevent the virus from from spreading the situation in Japan. Somali seems to suggest that widespread mask wearing and just like, based
personal hygiene beyond. That can be why you effective at suppression and it's bad, that the masks like everything else have gotten caught up in America's like and was more of culture war stuff, because to the extent that we have like a like a shot at this thing,
I think it's got to hymns on that kind of stuff. I'm getting people to wear masks on getting the actual medical grade procedure masks on the faces of people who are out there working. You know the clients may be claws master or find assuming you're not going out that much washing hands telling people like you can do stuff if you want to, but don't like. I personally would not want to do a group exercise class wearing a mask, but that sounds really
and unlike you can just go run outside like I don't like running outside, I would rather go back to my Jim, but I don't wanna go to the gym with a mask like that seems annoying, but then don't go to the gin. You're gonna be like this. Do so a range of things and any
You make me, you know, concerned about restaurant
because I was you can't wear masked by your eating. Unless I don't know, maybe someone has Bogdanov wetted do it, it doesn't seem like you would. It would work for me, but it speaks to the total lack of any kind of strategy here that, like that's, not what the President saying
It's not really what governors are saying. We had a dial like this a few weeks ago. It is just the most shocking thing to me that we just keep stumbling through this without, like an effort, I feel psychologically and backed up by this. The way I think some people felt by Donald Trump winning the presidential election like
I thought the country was better than this in some kind of fairly profound way and beyond, like my fear of the concrete consequences, its disturbed me, it makes me sad. It's like shaken my faith.
Society I think, to pick up on masks for a minute. I agree with shaking one's faith and decided to pick up on masks, that's a place where did
weird to me that capitalism has not worked a little bit better than it has there or something public health communication. Something so from the evidence we have basking is very effective. It is, but I mean like it is a huge Blake Issue-
that at the beginning, guidance on this was so bad, but, like it changed, massacring seems to be the thing there.
Some paper suggesting that if you could get sufficient adherence to mask wearing that, would bring the report
straight down beneath one which would it bring out the virus die out very exciting, given that it is weird to me that a somebody who like covers this issue professionally and follows like dozens of epidemiologist on Twitter in the whole thing I don't know which mask I should buy right. I have a lot of math
Have they half dozen of them? You know but they're, like you know, whatever liketh masks, I got some of the one at sea. I got some of them from your stores and I would like to
like what like, I would like, maybe maybe the work it has done this night. Seventeen that, like I, would like a wire cutter thing. I like this is some ask you should by its more comfortable than you expect. It is like pretty effective because there is, for instance, one paper suggested using two different kinds of material and a mask might make it more effective, like this. Has that quality to it, a bunch of people using
the masks with little ventilators in them. Those are incredibly ineffective. The thing the masks, mainly doings, keeping you from spreading at the ventilator, makes it more comfortable. He can read,
more easily, and it like filter things coming in, as I understand the workings of that, but even have the workings wrong. What every epidemiologists says is like these ventilator masks. They look more impressive. A lot of people think they are more effective, but in fact they are less effective, like possibly completely ineffective, and they should basically not be sold at like
I would just like to know like who I should buy a mask for whom I would like that present made, that that company or whoever to make enough masks as buster like just gig.
It from random people know and so on the eye. Why sites it? Just like that's a weird thing, I thought is like a pretty straightforward approach and it like. I am surprised that there have not been like a fast arise of dominant produce,
those who like seem to know what they're doing and have been certified by the public healthcare music. This is a good mask like this is currently the right balance of is not incredibly hot to where it is not fog up your glasses constantly to the extent that is possible and is like as protective as we know how to make a piano assuming we still need to save searchable great masks, fur public health professions.
This is like as protective his anon surgical. Great mass can be yeah. I mean you know eight there was I am, alas, she should have awesome with data and early covered. Nineteen alarmist twitter thread back in January that many people have sort of looked back on as a as
and in one of the interesting way like not unpleasant things. He said there was that we would have all this innovation in the mask space and you look back and that young people big predictions that on pan out all the time. But that's what we're like. I don't actually understand why the predicted in PAN out.
Like you said that, and at the time most people I got, the viruses is a big deal.
And then later the virus was a big deal, but the government was very like I'm, not really sure you even need masks,
but then, once everyone went into the virus is a big deal and we really need a mask mode. It seems like you should have innovation in the realm of masks like just the glasses. Fagging thing is incredibly
wine and clearly solvable, because if I fucked with my masks a long enough, I can get them set. Like just so that that my path goes out to the side, so somebody who's smarter than me, I'm just like I feel like they could make a mask the does that site
ass, it's good for glasses, where is or with a modem. Multiple knows thing that then sticks. Where does and there's been like nothing on it and the
movement has been continually unhelpful. I think, on the mask. Subject like even once the guidance changed,
They ve been very little in terms of ok. This is our critical public health intervention,
need to do something. I got an interesting contrast with cleaning materials. I've you go to the EPA website. They have like really clear explanations of which things they believe will kill covered in fact
services. You know so it's like if you wanted now like. Can I use this bath towel thing to disinfect my desk there? They will. They will tell you that right and there's like nothing on the masks just like something would be good instead of getting the respirators everyone for health care.
Girls. But it's like the failures are so like multi faceted that
I think people haven't zoomed in on this quite as much as they maybe shed, but is very striking
we'd better taken other break there. Let's take a break. The men. Can I read your from tweet yeah if you're a gig worker or self employed persons.
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tromp one of twitters, most influential users, wrote the Federal Reserve is wrong. So often at existing relationship to some projections for unemployment. I see the numbers also and do much better than they do. We will have a very good third quarter, a great fourth quarter and one of our best every years and twenty twenty one. We will also soon have a vaccine and therapeutics cure. That is my opinion watch
You know it's a good opinion. One thinks his striking to me about Trump is for all like the vaunted talk of his political genius here
the theory of what's happening here. That just seems like politically suicidal, like if you just run this forward. What's up what appears to me to be about two
is one of ours: infections are going to go up like we're going into the summer that might keep them a little bit suppressed. So maybe like what's going to happen, is that like come to July thirty, one ST unemployment cut off like con of ours won't be quite so bad because of the summer and we'll cut off the expansion
unemployment simultaneously, and so then you are in August September October these
months. It really matter for an election, and at that exact moment, practically September October, you'll have the fall. You have Lucy's season, so flew plus corona virus plus colder weather,
like are gonna, be potentially really overwhelming dos petals, you will have a very high death toll. You will
This economic support, having drained out of the economy and people like now, and a lot of pain. One thing that we've talked about, I think here on the show, certainly on the site, is that there's been a somewhat decoupling of the economic indicators and the economic pain like a lot of people who are unemployed or even making more money with the Ui
than they were before. So the amount of like agony is not what you would think from looking at the headline indicators so
position, where the headline indicators might begin looking better, but the level of agony goes up and if you wanna be re elected. This is not.
You would do like you would really will make people at uncrown a virus. You really want to make has a lot of economic support in the economy, and you would really just trying to be like
minimizing paying maximizing benefits and like trying to get through the election without a disaster. Where is he seems to me to just be courting a disaster,
exceptionally narrow view of the stock market as like the only
solid indicator, fur economic prospects, her like a much much when the prospects for, like the current state of the economy,.
Is nobody around him? Can tat like his polymers,
king terrible, I mean Joe Biden is up by between seven and eight points for comparison, Mitt, Romney,
down by one point: five at this point in twenty twelve so like this is not working and they seem to be doubling down on the parts of it that are not working and
just like based on level of believing the one thing Donald Trump cares about is winning. I cannot figure out why
so I was trying to make some sense out of this. You know there's a lot of different opinions about how to think about Donald Trump out there
I don't have a strong opinion about how to think about dumb trump, but
don't you see people doing things? You could ask yourself why? Why might this makes sense right like what what would be a theory and which it makes sense
So one possibility, is you think of Trump as the owner of a bankrupt business
but the loans have been called him yet so, since the business is bankrupt, it doesn't really matter if you make a modest profit next week, because you're not going to you're not going to have enough money to pay back what you do. But if you take some huge risk, you have to risk his negative expected value. If it has a ten percent,
that you're going to make some huge fortune like it can be worth doing anyway. So the thing about this whole trump caboodle is like what if there is a breakthrough on therapeutics or what, if the outbreaks do just end up limited to prisons and meat, packing factories and masks, kind of work and the economy does just sort of wore back. Adding
we four million jobs a month at every month for the next four months, then being so extreme on straight and like a brush
everything off and like telling the haters to go shove. It could really make you look like a winner, whereas being very cautious and having jobs grow, more slow
Lee and telling everybody are we gotta be worried, like we can't get complacent just kind of park, see when the law us. I don't think. I believe that
like fundamentally is an analysis like Trump should try to do his job well and its possible that he could impress people there so surprising political strength for tromp like Harry and did a tweet about. How have you look?
they heard of this Pauling from is doing away better than he was four years ago with latino voters, specifically just like worse with white voters, and there are many more white voters but like who would have thought Donald Trump. Do it better with much about it? You know, like things, are possible out there and seeming to handle the corona virus in a responsible way. I just feel it would be a no brainer, but I
he's not capable of right. I mean look at some level as it has to be the like. He just the phasing out of it comes down to. I think he doesn't want to deal with it
I think that he like it exists in a zone of denial for him. Basically, he thinks it has been weapon used against him. He feels unfairly treated by corona virus and lick his basically working agenda mine trick approach to the election, but it is isn't working. I mean it is striking. How bad is Poland bizarre despite the best month ever in the jobs report rather got, would give me some pause if I were Donald Trump. So I take your point to those like bids. It's hard to come up with a coherent theory of trumpeted is just say that I would have thought here. The political
incentives are lined up to try to do a good job right to try to keep a second outbreak from coming and to try to make sure you can honk support, isn't leave the economy too early like you could do a lot right. So let's say you hold the view
that the? U? Why the expanded you I'd? Six hundred dollars is keeping people who should go back into the economy from going back into the economy.
Does it really seem to be given a lot of people just went back into the economy anyway, but ok, fine, that's your view. I disagree with that. That should not stop me from doing state and local aid right. You still don't want states after lay people off, because a huge revenues
there like no advantage to your economy of like not letting states key people hired of having states have to cut like teacher salaries or cut teachers or cut anything
so they're. Just isn't to me any thoroughgoing idea here. I think our citizens show before but like an interesting thing, a chump administration is it. You end up getting was Ben Diagram between trumps, weird impulses and the like.
Movement Conservatives, and that the diagram tends to be do nothing. So it's like Larry Kudlow in a lot of ways did not think like Donald Trump and don't trump
does not think like Larry Cobo, like on a lot of issues like the place where they kind of like end up coming.
Is is Larry. Kudlow is not like economic stimulus and like Donald Trump doesn't like doing stuff, and so like. Let the economic stimulus go and
the liberals are wrong about everything like seems to be an equilibrium like the two sides can come together on it. Just strikes me as crazy,
and a lot of like damage is gonna, get done similar
this mask thing like you're, too saying right, you know, hope the masks help legality a totally reasonable play like
one thing you might want to do. Those where fucking mask threat yet was filed. Job is publicly and objectively, like Anti Mass, like he refused to wear a mass in Photoshop
in a mask factory like he visited a mass factory and would not put on a mask so like it has to be better for you politically. If your people get corona virus, there is simply no doubt the few people get run a virus if, like mask use and mask adherents, is higher. One way you can make masks him ask adherence higher is to wear a mask as the presidency, your people to turn against masks and he's done the opposite thing. So Adena, you just couldn't have a worse person at the moment.
This. This is that we had so we should talk about this. There was a few days ago, like every article on the front page of the Washington Post was about the protests and the push back against the protesters and all that stuff, except for one story, which is welcome
to our conversation, any was about how the Trump administration is invoking. All kinds of like hazy, emergency powers related to the pandemic,
to just like unilaterally drop regulatory enforcement and its. If a good example, what you're talking
because it's I somehow and their legal paperwork like this pandemic, is like such a big deal that, like you, can just dump toxic waste, render rivers now and all kinds of stuff like that. But it's not a big enough deal to actually do anything other than just like you can download policy ideas that were a couple of things is a good idea
except now without the incumbrance of law. You know it's not like unheard of stuff on some level, but
That's where the nexus of Trump, with very establishment type forces become so sinnest. You know like he's up there he's not
when a good job but like his very sort of irresponsibility, makes him this incredible, be a call for this kind of the various types of. Thank you know. Any Republican is giving more sceptical of five regulation than a democratic right.
But people are also like- I don't know, they're trying to win their economy. People like them, if somebody
I was up there like, haven't you just? Let us do whatever with regard to people's drinking water.
Somebody somewhere in a like functioning of public administration, is come back. I don't know boss like this kind of a bad luck like the pollen
hang on polluting people's drinking water is not great, like less. Maybe that's why we think this over and you don't you you get a brake on it, but in the Trump administration, it's like truly anything go straight and like nobody even pays attention to like which
be huge stories, because this nine thousand other insane things happening, and we have gotten, I think, more coverage of a totally hypothetical trumpery speech than a fight,
policy making that is occurring, which is very,
typical of how the media has operated in the Trump era. But I don't want people to come out of this thinking that they're not doing anything about coronavirus. They are invoking emergency powers,
block immigration and unilaterally rollback environmental regulations. Now why that helps? You know it's a different question, but they are doing something
that's a good place to end yes and we're always doing something here, trying to delight and inform- and we appreciate your efforts
listening with us, and we hope that you will wear mask stay, save stay cautious out there. I thanks to our producer, Jeffrey Gal to end the reeds we'll be back
Transcript generated on 2021-05-19.