Dara, Ezra, and Matt talk about Bob Woodward’s book, that op-ed, and the two-track Trump presidency. References and further reading: The infamous NY Times op-ed written by a White House insider Andrew Prokop's explainer of Bob Woodward's new book White paper: Does Rape Culture Predict Rape?
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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lately. My pdf fever Skywalker Way reads: it is a very awkward rotary not out to sink in Israel,
hello and welcome to another episode of the weeds. I'm a box, Amelia Podcast network Matthew, Iglesias Borderland, as recline is back with us silent. He has returned with some some big enough
the medium sized announced for the other four one of you, the announcement of a huge life. Changing
so here we have five could be changed by this announcement. We ve been
an audio engineer, job working among other things on the weeds and user can show. You could check that out at box media dot com, they have a careers tab. That is
job for somebody with audio engineering experience. But if you love me shows you love to work on them, we will have to work with you to go check that out again its box media dot com, they have up careers drop down and you can find it.
the other quickly this concho. This week. I have an interview with David French of the National review. I think weeds fancy,
that one, because it comes out of this, show you guys not remember. The episode we did on the Great Twitter war is a serious young stuff. We talked a lot about David French's pieces in that that he wrote an interesting response to that
weeds discussion, and then I had him my show to discuss it. It's a total,
inception episode, but it was in its an interesting one. So you can check that out
yes Concho, where we get your fine podcast, but what about the weeds today? But we gonna do
although we can talk here and weeds about recent excited, now is very Gazeta here, so listen, there's a buzz buzz in Washington DC about the dual occurrences of the mysterious New York Times are bad, whose author claims
to be a member of the resistance inside the Trump White House and Bob Woodward's book. Fear which I would say broadly reflects the same kind.
Perspective that if he is a lot of campaign stuff from steel ban and at the start, but that this under the broadest narrative of fear, is that
A number of senior people in the administration feel that Donald Trump is kind of timber mentally unsuited for the presidency has a lot of bad instincts counter.
Active impulses, but any mean- and this is the same as in your times- are bad guy, but did they
Oddly, endorse the policy direction that Donald Trump is taking the country on and they are working to both contain and and assist Donald Trump in this paradoxical driver restructuring. But there comes a lens
I think that what we are seeing here are, on the one hand, a dual track press.
and see the other had a dual track: resistance
Both will be interesting to talk about the agenda so which one do we want to do for any. Let's go with it, the dawnchild presidency, because that seems like the thing to which the dual track
distances the upper phenomena right and did you
The presidency is a phrase that we ve seen in some.
the more sanguine takes, especially for national security. Folks are the thesis being that
cause Donald Trump does not have April
singularly weed the interest in policy, to say the least that it is
You know my nor any time, oh my gosh. Yes, please, Mr Trap that
in the absence of that you his neglect or
billowy to be distracted easily, has created the space for members of his administration, both political appointees and civil servants to just kind of
keep on keeping on or to do things
there are more in line with what other presidents would be pursuing, rather than the more
off the wall, ideas at the Trump administration, both substantively and particularly trade policy, and the way that Trump makes decisions and this coming
explicit Lee Envy New York Times. Abed was not super surprising because it was
describing the same phenomenon. But it was definitely interesting that that's explore
ITALY away that somebody within the White House or within the Trump administration were not entirely clear. We are this purse
he's coming from sea
their role. They literally see, despite being apparently fairly close to the president on the Org short they see. Their role is operating totally independently of the president and making sure that things on one track are going smoothly because things on the presidential travel not do you buy it. Do you buy
that we have
presidency that is presenting one way and acting another like an aberration, all public presidency, and then the clause
traditional governance presidency for lack of a better term emanating. The reason that this conversation is usually frustrating to me is that the administrative state and the executive branch of this massive complex organism and
in some cases it does appear to be the case that there are people who are trying,
to operate independently of the presidency, but in a lot of other regards. That is not true right, like obviously I'm going to be framing this for my
both in terms of immigration and immigration, Lily
seems like an area where there are members
the permanent state that are working not to do what Donald Trump wants it real
it, is an area where Jeff Sessions and Stephen Miller and other folks who really do know how to turn
the broad strokes into policy are successfully putting that into practice. So there are probably cases where there is a two track presidency, but there is not, broadly speaking, an independent, functional, normal track,
I think to me: what makes us a difficult discussion to undertake is that the most corn unquote norm. All parts of the trump
policy agenda rag, which I would say are his tax and health care policy sway. Where he's pursuing the exact same ideas as every other Republican are also the most aberrant two aspects of the American Republican Party as an institution where did if you went to England or a swell you maybe out or limited
or of France or Sweden? And you said I led a right of centre political party that is based in older people, more rural people and the traditionally minded- and I have a lot of problems
comes with immigrants coming into our community and critics of police officers. Swedish, Canadian,
an australian, whatever consumers would say, like you, that makes sense. Like circumstances differ from country to country, but like this is what unites conservative political movements everywhere in a globalized world every said to them. I think that some people should get sick and die because they are too poor.
I will go that's a freezing! Wait like governments like in Austria, where, like they have access,
See movements in power like they would take. That is crazy, noble
He would say that red, like that's the point,
in response to that- would be get your government hands off my Medicare adjust just that. It's it's untenable. You know like that. The prime Minister of Denmark, like he, wrote a book about like philosophically it
a libertarian, it's like Adam Smith, is right about everything Bob. I like the idea that, like maybe, if your poor, you just shouldn't, be able to get food
like there would be entirely off the table, but it's
credibly mean stream in american politics. So you have these aspects of trump that are like
we're norm right if you are just trying to like baseline it. If you accept the premise that, like Paul Ryan, is like a good mainstreamed
there's like all this overlap with Paul Ryan's, good, mainstream ideas. But those ideas
solves are apparent, and you can tell how
operational. They are when you look at even just like Republican Party campaign messaging.
they themselves, don't say that stuff, they don't say like the problem with Democrats is that they think we should take care of people's medical experts
like this is incredible amount of of lying in hoopla around a member, the probable bomber care was all its Medicare cuts rate and to me and lighted octopus and to me at least that is what is it
the girl to understanding what's happening with Trump into me. What's frustrating about the woodwork bug
The wood will book has so little grounding in actual policy making,
what's going on it- and I mean I understand why that is that's like not his thing but late in it's also a function of the sources you talk to. Our colleague under Protocol has a really excellent piece on the woodwork book there,
frames it, and I would recommend, if you're planning on reading that book and haven't yet reading enters peace first, so the instead of playing a guess
game about. Where did this information come from? You can think about. Ok, who was
talking to Woodward and how do they want to make themselves appear? Rapid and universal right? None of the main Woodward's sources like seem to work at age ass or like on healthcare policy and like he doesn't talk about the individual mandate, even though he does talk about the form
some of the tax reform thing, but my errand. He calls the tax to formulate the only major legislative accomplishment from its first year and just doesn't mentioned the fact that they also accomplish their main healthcare cold it with out so they didn't have used their main help. It was apparent that it was an important consideration right so anyway, there
is a dual track presidency. I think quite there's like a kind of ninety Trump Chow
a nor more particularly on and sort of economic and social policy roll out of repulsion
Party ideas, but those normal ideas are themselves ninety right, so I think they're a couple things here. One thing I just think is useful to say about the way:
were book about this senior dynamic abed, which I finally,
interesting that everybody else does due to its unbelief
but in reality like
Only interesting thing about that Abed is the sort of mocking provocative Wade's written towards the Trump administration. Take that out that almost gleeful like
rotting of the president, and it is what every member of the administration is becoming every report. I mean I was
damn Dresdner who's up political scientist, but but rather the washing posts as well has been tweeting out since the beginning.
presidency screenshots of articles where Trump Administration Affair
poles anonymously described the president in terms befitting a toddler. There are now almost five hundred tweets in that thread, so this one thing about the incredible consistency of description,
the precedent. If you read the woodwork book, it reads a lot like a wolf buck, which would word, is a much more respected. Traditional figure than
wolf but you're not telling a dramatically different story. If you read the sooner fischler bad, it reads like the woodwork book, which reads like the Maggie Haber man. Are you George
Swan pieces. I mean there's not a lot
confusion here. But I also think is interesting. Is that even if you had none of that like if none of whose people reported any of those things be just watch doll?
but public. You would also be able to come to all these conclusions like what he tweets, what he says what he does away. He acts of press conferences so
There's not a huge number of surprises here and I do think part of it issues. The unbelievable truth of what we ve been seeing. The whole way through going way back to the campaign is impressive.
Donald Trump, has not appeared to grow or change at all in the presidency. He does is what he is. The thing about the dual track presidency cause this to me is really what the senior officials
That was about more than the woodwork book more than even the Wolf Buck. The senior official was almost ass. We ve got this contained
I see the Trump administration as much more of a coalition government? It is Donald Trump who
intuitively and emotionally seems more like a european, far right party, where he in two
ITALY has relatively positive ideas on the welfare state as long as is going to his kind of people
as very opposition. All ideas on culture, on immigration, on race, on national character and a national identity that kind of thing he seems to be in coal.
Soon with the traditional Republican Party and the coalition
seems to have almost divided power. The traditional publican establishment seems to have control over
economic issues. Health care taxes that kind of thing Donald Trump is really taken lead on. Culture
on immigration, and there is a real, consistent tussle over foreign policy because of the way power isn't share their. They can't stop, don't jump from being who he is in a room
Putin. Stuff words very were trump doesn't care about much, but it's a legislative. The Republicans Congress take the lead immigration. Try
has taken the lead public communication over culture, Trump has taken the lead and then foreign policy. There is continuing conflict, but it's not one
thing or the other, and I think I should have an important part of this- isn't a dual track presidency, or even a presidency. There is a complex set of instead
no power sharing agreements that are playing out in different ways in different arenas
Sadly, that is true, but I also think that the kind of division of labour that you assess is something I would have bought
a lot more easily a year ago, because, while
yeah. There have been consistent struggles on foreign policy between trumps instincts.
do. You know the foreign policy establishment that
clearly has its own institutional and ideological biases toward engagement tore talkativeness,
we're we're, seeing much more of like trump feeling, his Oates and stepping into an area where the GEO P has tried to have him in the last several months as trade where
Our seeing you know, I'm gonna, probably keeping
back to the sources that would work to use for his book, because it's very clear that our economic policy that would routes
in Jericho and Rob Porter our lot and both of those are free trade could,
quote globalists. Deeds were also no longer in the trunk administration, and so there are now talking to one word about you know we had to get a piece of paper off his desk. That would have withdrawn the. U S from its trade agreement with South Korea. We were trying to stop all this up and they are not there anymore and sure enough. We really have seen more aggressive, protectionist action from Trump, often in a way
the endorsement of the Commerce Department
tariffs on using national security exemptions for tariffs on trying to renew goes.
kidnapped and then blowing that up with a few words about Canada and all of that- and yes, some of that, is you can't control trump when he's in the room, but some of it frankly is that the exact
branch appears to be going along with Trump on a bunch of the stuff, or at least has been worn down in areas where you would have expected Republicans to really assert. Look. We're in
power sharing structure we have to have our way on economic stuff. This is really where we know things in you. Don't and Donald Trump has been disregarding those boundaries increasingly over the last several months. So I'm not really sure that this coalition of structure I mean it's clearly go
to hold in so far as republicans aren't abandoning Trump or the Trump Administration over trade, but it
doesn't seem that the power sharing aspect of it is super stable, although I mean I'm
struck waiting in America rate is a two party system right. There's some countries work for more coalitions are the way governments always work. America has, as majority party government, but that means that every cabinet is a little bit
a coalition and I'm using this is the only way to evaluate it. But if you ignore process issue sway, we ignore the fact that Trump is maniacal, whereas Barack Obama was like famously cool customer and like ran a tight
ship there appear to me to actually have been more coalition old tensions in Obama's government in the first two years than there were in
Swear they were handled in a much more professional way, with a lot less crazy, tattle telling
but it was really serious. Persistent disagreements inside the Obama team about how to deal with the banking crisis, but how to approach the fiscal stimulus question, but how to execute the pivot to deficits maneuver and is something that the Democrats like tussled with consistently
through an eight year span, because there were, it would even be too simplistic say, was like two sides, but there was like a range of views that had different people in them. The president's seems to have changed his mind, a little bit overtime as circumstances.
Areas and they were real, you know when you saw him twenty. Sixteen primary. You continue to see like substantive disagreement
major disagreement about policy, but disagreement about policy that both sides care about right wing
as to publicans, have done pretty good job, I think of staying out of each other's way on most topics where I think it's obvious, that lots of people in the Republican Party don't really think trumps taken. Immigration is good, but like they're, almost all happy to go along with it, especially if it seems like a political winner and Trump clearly. Doesnt have his like.
heart in the like welfare state rollback, but he's very much doing it, and so you have this zone of conflict on trade right. Where were you? Have?
Disagreement. Ride like it's, not cleat, like Trump sees it as part of the populist backlash against globalism where's Gary coincide as part of like economic policy.
Getting and there's been a shift in the balance of power right, Conan Porter gone are less efficacious than they used to be we're getting more protectionist, although still much less protectionist and candidate from you know advertised
would be, but it's a pretty narrow spectrum of issue swayed and if Trump could actually do the management portion of his job
in like a more responsible way that left everybody feeling like you know, she had listened to their input and considered their options and made his decision
and a deliberative way, it's a reasonable consensus that they have reached inside the Republican Party about how they want to govern about what their priorities
are about how they do and seemingly deal with, where the Democrats could never due weight is make a decision that they have a really important policy priority on taxes that they simply don't want to talk about. For politics,
purposes right, which democratic constituency groups to get really upset, if their political leaders don't talk in public about their issue in the way that they want it to be talked about, they don't have the level of internal trust and internal cohesion in their coalition. That the Republicans do we're, like you can say like this, is a remark. Leslie tax cutting pro
people administration. But we are not going to go out with that as our public message, and you know in some ways that to me is like the fundamental ongoing reality of american politics is an credibly, cohesive republican Party. I think something that's interesting about this is I would frame the process differently here than you do, which is to say that a couple of levels at different moments, what is interesting, is held little process. There is, and if you just don't have that much process, then there isn't that much time for internal coalition will decide.
It's too to emerge. So let's take healthcare, as example for a minute. The democratic health care effort was a roughly I mean putting aside all the work that went into it before Barack Obama took office. It was a thirteen fifteen month effort, depending on how you look at it that had a huge amount of it played out in London, different arenas,
times are. There is like the White House weight in a very serious way, but there is also a serious house process and a separate budget line,
very serious Senate process, minor Jason. Everybody wanted piece of it. There is reconciliation, whereas Republicans came in Paul Ryan, released this bonkers health
Bell that nobody ever seen before. That was not like what had been in better way that we should, like some other thing and it just like wet and the companies
and did not way and in any serious why I've talked to a lot of Republicans who are involved in that or who are outside experts who were consulted on that? All of them, like
feel embarrassed by when animals. But what happened like why? Why do they go the way they did and basically say like the widest in one?
be involved. Like a decision was made to move fast and and just like everybody can like, let it go. I think you are completely right. The really interesting question is why they love it, but it was. It was not
census over policy like if you remember, an amazing thing about that was away that place like a lie and heritage were shitting on the House republican bills. There is a I mean and in the end, stuffed it and pass actually like they didn't get the bill they wanted. But something happened in process were people did not demand the normal piece of it they would of
and the White House there and somewhat less, oh, but still subsidy.
actually state of things on tax reform that they did not enter into that in the way of the Obama administration, often dead to some degree,
One thing I just hear a lot: is it republican members of the House and Senate and then separately the president himself, just don't like policy and the way that a lot of democrats do like a lot of democratic house members like,
the policy, and they want to get a piece of that and they want to argue about it and a lot of Republicans again by their own testimony, they're in it for Anna, more symbolic politics way like they're excited about a lot of fights are excited about big picture. Any logical and philosophical principles, but with some with no
exceptions that they often do you wanna, be that involving the details in it, which allows for processes that are much more closed, move much more quickly? There's been an ability in this
lookin coalition, to move fast on p
see in a way that the Democrats really didn't do it. I don't think it represents more. The word put it.
I don't think it represents more agreement. What I think it represents is more in difference or less commitment to outcomes in a way that I've thought is interesting
breaks down when the administration decides to to play so immigration
and I think, being the key example here betrayed also be a good example like on immigration. The administration has done
I did have a position and that's meant
Paul Ryan and which Mcconnell coming up with what they think is good politics impassable policy moving very fast. A lot of possible deals have emerged and then been scotched when they hit the White House,
on trade again, there are things that are quite similar to that when they decide to have a process with a lot of stakeholders, they don't move very fast, but it's not like. They have often decided to not had anything. We would recognize as a policy process and I think, to some degree they paid for that to some degree they benefited from that. But it reflects a literally different level of commitment in a lot of these faces to policy making us
fifth you're supposed to be doing or that you care about doing and government. I wanna refocus a little bit on the idea that you track presidency as it appears to be understood by those on the inside, because we, as people are very
We stayed in agendas in visions of the world in proactive policymaking, bed what you
most consistently here from the people who think that they are acting, that she track presidency, or at least what they're telling reporters is often a reactive thing right
it's not about like. Oh, we are putting
forward our own vision of America and the President's just doing his own thing, the theory of the cases,
the president. Has massive downside risks because he has an impulsive person who doesn't learn. Anything that might
means that something could happen and we could all dire. He could get us into a nuclear war. The purpose of the two
the presidency is that
we are kept,
any new development from
becoming a disaster? Whether that's Donald Trump, coming up with some crazy idea on his own
or had seen a reacting to something like an inner north korean nuclear test, or something like that that the two trap presidency
purpose is to keep them
Seat war Right- and you actually did see this pretty explicitly in the times up ad, where the author
with knowledge or otherwise says well yeah. Initially, some people were talking about trying to use the twenty fifth amendment to get the president out of office, but we ve, since
up on that we're just kind of keeping our
It's down inviting our time? The idea? Being that, like nothing, that terrible can happen to the? U S as long as people are trying to keep them
it contained, and then eventually Donald Trump will be. President anymore, which gets too
with the kind of indifference towards policy outcomes that you know it turns out a lot of legislation and a lot of executive policy can be changed that doesn't blow up. The
rural, but that still has consequences for our peoples lives, but
also sees the press
it didn't see, as in a kind of accurately, frankly, is like the things on which the President
The United States, as an individual has the most power are often national security things. There often like situations. We are quick to see
in either need to be made, or the president has the power to make quick decisions just in case, which is how you get the you know, getting keepers off from desks
from himself needs due to assign them, but without a signature they can't move forward, and so the two track presidency kind of peace.
sense itself and I think we're reading something into the subtext year, because we understand
The kind of people who are likely to be political appointees in the trunk administration are likely to be Republicans who are proud of the administration in certain regards
but the way their presenting themselves is. We are just key.
being the ship afloat, because
president can overturn it at any time. But I think that the focus on national security issues right this comes in part from Woodward's sourcing, which is heavily weighted outside
I think that presents a slightly misleading portrait of this because
Sure security, you know, is life or death, and so people who have policy arguments about national security,
feel and say and are believed to believe that not accepting their advice will get people killed,
forget about. Let's see, happens, a good Gillian targets in the woodwork, but people who
I know who have held appointments by Donald Trump, none of them work in national security, and they all feel about the work that they are doing. The exact same way
right to madness, seems to feel and all these things, which is that they are trying to force the government to hew to orthodox conservative policy, make in the face of an impulsive president right. But people who I know they like they work on tax policy. They work on communications regulation. They work on pharmaceuticals
they work in. U S attorneys gigs, nowhere near the border, so they would, they are dealing with. Is the life or death of the conservative movement in the United States of America, like I dont think it is true that if we deviate from orthodox conservative telecommunication regulation that the world will end it
We better right, like when Barack Obama, whose president we didn't have fully orthodox telecommunications package. That was better. We didn't have orthodox conservative tax policy, and that was better. The fear that these people
though, is exactly the same fear that matters has, which is the trump freelancing, is gonna, look at some polling or listen to some friend of his or simply decide
the czech humor, is making sense and is gonna say that look like Trump has. Is
like little zone of commitment, which is on immigration, respecting law enforcement nationalism, but
when he hears about this other stuff right, I mean a very concrete struggle that that keeps being wages between Trump clearly wants to impose price controls on prescription drugs
right like whenever he has the opportunity ramble on this subject. He comes to the conclusion that the United States should do what foreign countries do and book price controls on prescription
eggs, trumps, helping human services FDA his economic team, none of them think he should do that.
And so this exact same tug of war that exists with like, should we and NATO
also exists on prescription drug pricing except, like then, I'm trying to save the world.
They're just trying to do- I mean you can characterize it over. You want but like they're having a policy argument, but their dream.
sing it up in these, like apocalyptic trumped. Let's take a break and come back as this brings up. The dual track was ass. Yet
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So, I think that all of that is correct, but I think that the fact that their making it the sub text rather than the text isn't
wait so simple as their dressing it up in these high minded principles. I think that
a reason that we're not hearing about closed door.
conversations at the Heritage Foundation where
you're sources in the pharmaceutical regulation are saying, look
trying to get these things you want to get done done. The president is being unhelpful, like the
and for that is in large part,
Conservative movement is behind Donald Trump to annex
that is not necessarily behind a lot of these policy aims and,
we're. Seeing a lot of conservative intellectuals who are in a position to speak there.
Mine's show a lot of ambivalence about the fact that there are
sure that their voter base is more loyal to the ideas than they are at the president. But the other part of this is that a lot of these are political appointees overseas,
well, servants for and the civil servants. You know in some cases that's looking like fairly
and warfare within an agency lakes, got promoted the EPA where there's like an obvious distrust of the civil servants gives you assume their all liberals. In line with the deep state, but often there's a
certain kind of solidarity being projected when the political appointees are saying you
I understand that
Our job is to make sure that the process is observed that the executive branch
Does things in a deliberative fashion, even though we disagree,
the policy outcomes. We are both fundamentally day in and day out on the same team because we're trying to protect the president, so I think something that is worth talking about here, cuz. I think it's a way in which the Op Ed was super confusing the op, Ed writer,
top. Did language of the resistance rightly
I think a little like I am part of a chump resistance and Bell rang out at having coffee at, but I didn't write the headline thy: the resistance in the way that I don't know like the heritage,
foundation is part of the resistance like he met. The resistance to Donald Trump negotiating pharmaceutical prices
like the thing that they are- and you are a great piece on this map. But the thing that he said like the internal resistance is doing, is trying to make Donald Trump into like the Paul Ryan presidency and
this and confusing a lot of people. I think one reason the opted with such a big deal, despite saying so little that was actually knew. Was it used language that, if you are reading it not with
you're washing Dakota ring on correctly. You thought the boys happening. Was the hashtag reserve
stance was inside the White House and they're gonna try to stop the stuff from happening, but the resistance like had a huge victory
when John Mccain gave the thumbs down signal and the Obamacare appeal bills died for the final time are, for the final time for now at least,
That was a failure for the inside Trump resistance which like wishes, they had gotten the white as to engage more constructively on the Obamacare appeal effort and succeeded like the
house writers. Resistance was basically like. You did not like a trade policy does, like the president acting crazy, but here she
is proud of deregulation, proud of the tax reform, proud of the economy, proud of it
Two other things that are going on inside. You think something that is an interesting tension just throughout the the president.
And it comes up also now the Democratic Party is, is the Trump prison
since a resistance to Donald Trump.
Is it a resistance to a republican administration? Is it a resistance,
what exactly and and this comes up in the Democratic Party, because there is a view
of going tromp, which is trying to create a non partisan argument against Donald Trump like under the
argument that, like my pants, would be fine right. We just shouldn't have a crazy person as president of the United States there's another argument, which is why
and have a republic in which, as a subset, include
crazy, Donald Trump, but not only crazy, Donald Trump as the President of the United States and be such a quite different ways of money.
its trump to some degree? Hillary Clinton ran against Trump trying to create the non partisan argument, hoping to kill off a lot of college educated Republicans, who seemed like their wavering on Trump in the polls and that that strategy ultimately failed to summit agreed Brok. Obama tried United
in the speech, you gave a very interesting thing that was happening and republican commentary on the Obama speech was about how it was like the unfair.
treatment of Mitt Romney. They gave you Donald Trump. The unfair treatment appears to have been running a campaign against men.
Me one Mitt Romney, when a campaign against Barack Obama, but but there
is this thing where a lot of problems bleep? If only had let us put in power like that, that nor more public you wouldn't have gotten the nutty Republican. But I do think that there is a lot of confusion over some of these terms and it actually Crete
Fusion around coalition building- and I think important ways and some degree helps explain things like the Jeff Flake Bob Corker Access,
talking about how they don't like not how Donald Trump exacting but ever holding anything hostage, because they don't particularly want to hold the congressional gender hostage, because the congressional genders mostly just concern,
but I think they like I mean I, but I think they generally imbibe Corker right like delivered the answer that right, which is a here this argument made about them, we're like how could you expect them to hold something hostage that they like in order?
stop something that they dont like, and the answer is like: that's fucking life man
like sometimes in life. If you want to do a thing you have to sacrifice another great and which are flake and Bob Corker and the resistance arbed riders of, but what they all said is that they agree with some of the liberal
criticisms of Donald Trump, but they are literally unwilling to make literally any sacrifice addle. All of anything in order to effectually that agreement, which is fine, everybody is allowed to make their choice.
Says, but that to me has signalled loud and clear for over a year now that, like there is no coalition to be may push on this in awake, though, to sink a strange here's, what I think
we take. We sacrificed our jobs.
Never understood why they prefer to sacrifice their jobs, then just like try to hunt for
election but hold some stuff hostage more effective, because I think that on commodity like so, I think that, frankly,
This argument is one access of a broader.
argument among people who would person
you prefer someone other than Donald Trump to be president, which I guess is of a more precise terms. What, then, for we are dealing with here, the resistance, that's about legitimacy, Jeff Lincoln
corker on some level, do now
I believe that Donald Trump is a legit.
the president is not that they believe that link Vladimir Putin personally installed him at the head of the executive branch, but they
agree with a lot of the? U know, temperamental criticisms, Donald Trump is not
behaving in a way that is deserving of the office of the presidency- and if that's your problem, then try
to make a few ways as possible and waiting
for somebody else to be in the presidency. Easy sufficient answer to that. I think that, even in the
reason that I think the kind of do you agree
an orthodox conservative agenda or not is maybe under stating the number
of fragmentation among people who would classed by themselves and as the resistance is that
There are all kinds of questions about. Do you point to the electorate
c of this. You know and tried it not
the contradictions but like tat,
to mount a fight against what you see is middle, illegitimate regime, or is your response to a president who you consider lie
the legitimate to just wait for there to be another president. This is the same argument we see in the convention.
Between the left in the centre on court packing. It's the same hour
meant that you see with you, know the questions of okay. If you really disagree with Trump
Why dont you resign and talk publicly? Why are you trying to work from the inside? It's the same.
Precision that, like a lot of members of the,
Permanent civil service are having with themselves on a fairly regular basis of I cannot,
condone the things that are being done by the federal government in one way or another right now. Do I
stay in a job that is probably going to last after this particular
president is out of office, or do I make myself clear and wash my hands of any involvement with the federal government because it's been tainted by this I mean I thought this really came through job Mccain's funeral, where I think you saw Georgia be Bush and some other traditional Republicans give speeches that
in certain segments of the Democratic Party were like optimistically heard as resistant speeches, but
but I think these worries they would the opposite of resistance. Yeah she's, just like that are bad, is the opposite of what this is about with those people are all trying to say is like look
If you are someone who, in twenty sixteen voted for Barber Comstock for House like keep on voting for Barber Comstock for house right, that, like lots of the old Republican Party, that you remember from before, Donald Trump is like still hear. Those values in Dore John Mccain is loads
are unlike its fine wait. Did you a lodestar? Don't like the Abed? Where are you the senior administration official? Now I've matted written the other? There would have been more typos resisting aid.
Matt, but I also over copied ask resistance, is the opposite argument? Right rightly, resistance is that the Trump era has exposed the like rotten soul of the conservative movement, and we need to resist
Then there are some questions of like tactical modality right, but like
this is an important question and white is like is Trump a passing fat had that like? If people who adhere to true conservative values, just kind alike hold on tight and do their best
that the next republican President, what they're like, we will continue to have the rule of law and free and fair elections, and the next republican present will have more honour and decency and Bobby Babo by all
Has the widespread acceptance of trump of trumps corruption of trumps racism? Has it showed that the power structures that put trump in office, the Federalist Society, the? U S: Chamber of Commerce, the National Rifle Association, fundamentally dangerous and undemocratic, and, like I think so,
all of these people. I sincerely hope like we're, we're recording a nine eleven. I think they can all think to themselves. Weight is like this thing that they say they are holding on to what is going to happen if Donald Trump is still in office in twenty twenty one- and there is a big terror
The on the United States, right, like is the rule of law gonna hold up, then, is the court.
and their independence gonna hold up then are we gonna have Muslims in concentration camps and a national registry I'm
sure by many other to take that further. Actually, because and Muslims
creation camps no, no, no and into a different at me like that
It's about the real dark here on the way I think of you were one of the Republicans we're talking about here, the beginning of the czech presidency. One of things you might have been watching for is: does the Republican Party as whole seem to continue to exist in a separate way and with a sense of distance and scepticism towards a precedent, and aren't you
here Republicans in Congress, I mean they're Publican base. I mean Fox NEWS: I mean the larger set of institutions and players at or the Republican Party, or does it birch and what is absolutely clearly unequivocally happened. It is marched. Donald Trump is fully capability with representative Mark Sandford of beating Republicans in primaries. He is not a popular president, but, among Republicans he's an overwhelmingly popular president. They don't you said I will vote for him. They approve of him. They prove it personally, the job he is doing. He clearly has like Fox NEWS, has reconstructed its prime time line up to be even more favourable to Donald Trump and making Kelly is gone and Tucker. Karlsson has
They start. If you look at what is happening with most members of the house with most members of the Senate, they like fully bought into Donald Trump, mean or an hatches error. Saying your great man- and you know it such an honored even sit be near you Ella on human level. So I think the question back in the day when it was a Donald Trump is a passing, accurate fad. The question was: what happens if there's a terrorist attack and Donald Trump as president, but now the Donald Trump has so decisively change the character of the party not to the institution
and had begun to restructure themselves around Donald Trump and now that he has shown to so many others and look at any republican primary. For evidence of this.
The way to win republican primary elections is to be more trouble like, even if you're, not Donald Trump himself, to be more trump. Like I ain't, you think what
issues here, that the true never trumpet got right. Is it the Republican Party what it is becoming, what it has become
and what it will then the fruit it will bear not just over one election or not as while chump is in office, but over time is much more dangerous, and so I don't just think the question is like if this keeps going like what, if Donald Trump is in office in twenty twenty one, but if Republican Party doesn't loose and big elections in big ways, what will like the third generation of this be, like? I think the Republican Party as an institution has gone into very dangerous path. I think that is completely clear and I don't see any serious grappling with that within the party. I think even people fleetly understand Party submitted to Donald Trump and know that, but Donald Trump has changed. The internal incentives are the party who is winning, who is gaining power? What they're doing like, I think, the four
since the speaker of the house who are placed Paul Ryan, is clearly going to be closer to Donald Trump and Paul Ryan was right. One reason it might become Mccarthy's come accredited good, personal relationship of trust, but one reason it might be one of like the gym
Jordan. Meadows access is it they had even closer relationship. Donald Trump still like it just keeps going like this, and I think that the way the question needs to be phrase was very much about Donald Trump personally, but the reason I think that the difference between a resistance to trump and resistance to wear the Republican Party is going is important, is that it is now like Donald Trump has changed,
party he leads and what it will create after Donald Trump. It may well be, certainly, in my view, more dangerous than trump people who have learned Donald Chumps Lessons, but don't carry his personal baggage and eccentricities could be much more dangerous, Donald Trump. So I think it is,
really hard to talk about this without being more explicit about what were expecting in terms of resistance, both as a noun Endlich as an activity right because it when I
I hear you saying as there is. Why is no one state,
within the Republican Party and republican institutions, instead of leaving, in speaking their mind, like we have seen a lot of elite conservative saying this has revealed a right at the heart of the Republican Party like the Jennifer Rubens of the world right. This is definitely a strain we ve seen in
right of centre commentary over the last couple of years, but these are people who don't have instead,
national presence in the GEO Pew. So what you're asking
Why is no one who has a lot to lose sticking out? Their necks, rightly
essentially, why isn't TED crews still the TED crews of the twenty sixteen republican national convention? Not this actually distinction it make. I'm not asking that, like, I think I know the answer that ok, I think like woot, like Donald Trump, revealing a lot about the Republican Party and people like, I think, like, for instance, the decision of people like flacon corker to retire, rather than like they will fight for a year, but then, like they're, not gonna, keep trying on this one is actually super revealing, but the point I'm making about this is that I think if you are thinking about the republican parties institution, the danger that a stop this being Donald Trump, the danger of it, has become a trumpet Republican Party in what that's gonna create down the road. Like I dont think when we think about what could go wrong in America at this point to me,
thing I worry so much about is Donald Trump and twenty twenty one. The thing I worry about is our public and party infused by Donald Trump, continuing on down the law unless but either way where, if Republicans lose big in twenty eighty in and then Trump loses, and twenty twenty there are a number of figures around in twenty twenty one. Twenty twenty two
stature: U S! Senators, governors in earnest, generals below and some pre tromp people going to say this really didn't work out your, whereas we should go in a different direction, but if things go well for Republicans, if they go
in two Senate seeds and they hold the house and from gets reelected, twenty twenty and then too
twenty four walls around by then you have a whole trump general
Guess reservoir, just workers in the flags and Mccain's will be gone. You have little things like like the forward. A primary were Rhonda Santa's Bay. I forget
the guy who initially seemed like the front runner right. Everybody who moves up IRAN in the next six years will have been the Trump biased possibility in these various things.
At which point it doesn't matter necessarily what happens to like Donald Trump or Don Junior that, like history is, is set.
particular kind of the gorge troubles? What he's doing Tipp turns around here, where could do at a moment of Christ, said this makes a lot of sense, but it also highlights for me the extent to which we are talking about the first of many
visions, and you know you kind of mentioned coalition building early in this segment, and I think we need to come back to it because one of the
reasons that I'm so resistant to use the term resistance is a lot of the people who cleaned
that mantle most tightly our people from the centre left and centre right
think of themselves as on a popular front, footing right now, right, they are explicitly saying I am Kurt.
The agreeing with people who, under normal circumstances, I would be disagreeing with because we need to reset our political discourse to the point it was at in a healthier time where we
we believe that people on both sides of the ILO had good intentions, whereas a lot of
from the centre left to the left believe that this is
The inevitable consequence of the Republican Party is its existed for the last generation, and their idea of making it impossible for trumped to recur is to salt the earth, with the ashes of the Republican Party to mix my agricultural metaphors and ably with the Democratic Party to where they need to
need to kill off the neoliberal them right. Yeah absolutely right- and this is, if you see pharmaceutical deregulation and not as a thing where Donald Trump is thwarting the conservative agenda, but as a thing
where conservatives gave us Donald Trump because they made it possible to become a party of plutocrats that was
growing, some culture war charm into the bees every now and again then you'd.
what to make common cause with anyone? Even the people who are coming across in saying something is rotten at the heart of the Republican Party as it exists right now, because a lot of those people are simultaneously saying. Look we
can be hawkish on immigration without being racist. Look, we can carry a lot about deregulation and now
Just empower a bunch of plutocrats, like don't think of
administration is conservative. It really isn't coalition building require, as members of the coalition to want to join
each other, and there is a certain left
running away from the central dynamic in what is broadly
the resistance right now, the if your short
our goal is to defeat Donald Trump, a minute
couple of elections needs to be an explicit conversation, that's happening and some people
having them at a conversation of lake? Should
We consider you part of the resistance. If you know
supported you thought of Sarah Pale and as a feminist in twenty away, or if you support,
no care appeal and twenty twelve twenty fourteen those conversations
are happening in the commentariat are not conversations that are happening at an instant,
national level, and I dont think that you can get to the point of ok.
We know. Can we
strangle, a from the Republican Party in its bed. If you
Don't agree on what parts of the Republican Party you're supposed to survive after I think it's, it's more profound
and frankly, a little bit more one sided than that right that you have a lot of people in the commentary. It right, I think, I think been witness from love. Fair is like the emblem of the sweet
the self consciously dawn the mantle of resistance. Yes,
and they say Trump is unfit to be president right and then they were found.
Who is to accept the diminished s implication of what it means for trying to be unfit to be president but like if tromp is unfit to be president and you
part of the anti trump resistance. That means that as long as Trump is the President, if he is proposing something, you must resist it right that, like a popular front, government meant we,
HU, a popular front meant we set aside our differences to pursue victory.
Right, but when you're saying
Oh? No, no, no, we should confirm Brak Cavenaugh, that's not resistance. Its acquiescence right, like if Trump is unfit
then you cannot confirm any judges from proposes and if the answer from Robins is who next after cabinet
there is no body, and the answer is, how are we,
to get good honest, normal republican judges. The answer is: get a different president.
How we can get it from president. Well, my pen,
he could be it of resident now is there
all that left wing people should accept
Nothing gets done until Donald Trump is removed, and then my pants gets to do it like no, but that would be the end of the popular front right MIKE Pence becomes president. The popular front is over and we have normal politics, but a lot of people like want to claim resistance. Without
resisting and its fine. If you don't think that Donald Trump is genuinely unfit to be president, and you do think, the Donald Trump Directive should be
followed and the Donald Trump handpicked judges should get lifetime appointments like good
you- and we can argue about that. But that is not a resistance mentality.
like that all fired entities in its form a coalition right, it's actually corrosive because people there.
I mean this has always been one of the most annoying things, an american politics.
A really banal viewpoint, like Republicans, are right on this issue, which would not get you any
becomes like a huge deal, if, like Joe Liebermann, says right and so
creating the single people can be like
I'm not a republic anymore. I'm in the resistance you putting your resistance cap and the new building
As a member of the resistance, I'm telling you bet cabinets good and your publicly.
is back on music fuck, you like doesnt
like it doesn't mean anything, and I thought that that are bad.
like I'm, a member who resistance inside the Tramp administration, who knows who writes the headlines right but like that is in the text
Yet bidding me there was the ultimate in like muddying the waters around this, like it's fine, too big member of the Trump Administration to have some concerns about the present decision making process and some disagreements with other
about policy is interesting to tell that to journalists. I'm glad when I hear from people about like
you know I I want to be like as far away as possible from oval office. Chaos, as I want to do my job like that some valid viewpoint, but like that's just not what resistance is. That means you just actually don't think they're Donald Trump is unfit to be present
I think your kind of, and do you know maybe in practice this works with a popular front, but I do think that its obscuring the question of what is it that makes Donald Trump and illegitimate president right lay
There are people whose concerns about the legitimacy of Donald Trump would be assuaged if my password or replace him, but there are also
people who think that Donald Trump and illegitimate president, because the outcome of the twenty sixteen election was tainted by russian interference. There are also people who think the Donald Trump is an illegitimate president, because you know the
stance of the Republican Party at the national and state levels has been to change
the way that votes are counted and ended. Representation is apportioned such that the twenty six sixteen election was not a free and fair election and meaningful way is like those people are
break down differently in what they think the popular front needs to be and what the proper remedy for it is, and I
super sure that just telling them
and let us have the world. You need to assume that, even though everybody else in your coalition is not gonna be satisfied. When my pencil president did
The point you need to get to, and then you can view, of course, is really a good way to address. This is only the two two thoughts here: one is it just as we are seeing earlier that governing groups are coalition, was our opposition groups right him
talking about. Is that the opposition to Donald Trump Coalition? But the other thing is interesting that I wouldn't have thought I was gonna come into this punk ass. The saying is, I think, a pretty useful analogy here. Is it the tea party? So after Barack Obama is elected president, there
Working parties brand is quite bad, and so conservatives with some differences, but really not that many on begin to rebranding
tea party, rightly, the opposition is not George. W Bush is Republican Party. It's the tea party, which believes in the founding fathers like they're, not here, to restore the George W Bush presidency. They are here to oppose, like the Obama overreach and take the country.
and you know, there's a lot going on in what's happening there, but that becomes a much more popular brain
mechanism. Then the Republican Party as us
enough, like John Banners, publicity Party MRI is part of the tea Party and the Euro area. Canter is a tea party, rallies and everybody becomes part of the tea party
which emerges sort of
ass for the turf effort but gets branded out of the Sea and BC ran from the guy. Who covers traders like the whole thing
that little bit crazy, making but a couple
years down the road from the launch of the tea party and whatever what
I remember reading the pieces early on about it. Being this truly decentralized
structure- and it was so grass roots and is completely co- opt at I'm. Just anybody who is Republican was a key party or public, and by that point the resistance has a dimension of that that the democratic parties brand is not great. Certainly, the post Hillary Clinton democratic parties brand is not great,
the lot of internal democratic Party schisms right. Pirnie Sanders is not a democratic, except when used to run on a democratic like actual ticket. So there's all kinds
things going wrong inside the Democratic Party brand. Some people want to be parted from the left. Some people from the right
Ben Wiggys, I dont, know how he votes per se. Mckenna speculate on that, but I don't think that in general he portrays himself as a democratic right. That's not like that's not the footing, and so the resistance emerges and like the people in the resistance originally are Denmark
that's just like like to some degree, comes out. I think, like the first big point, you begin hearing, it are the women's marches, but but it it involves.
Beyond that, and so now you have whatever it was
at the start, which was a real resistance to Donald Trump. It's now, a lot of people want to be there because, like what are the
our branding for opposition right, you want to be part of. The democratic party has for all kinds of reasons you that that's not the branding you want, and then I don't just not like trumpets now. It's gotten so like crazy that you got people inside the chump administration. Who does Republicans were proud of, like fifty five percent of what the like
These things become exercises that speak to the fundamental unpopularity of the parties themselves, even as the fundamental thing like the actual resistance to Donald Trump is the Democratic Party like for the most part like the way it can act out is like
publicans or voted out of office, including eventually Donald Trump and Democrats voted in office, you ve a lot if he wouldn't want that
be the remedy, but so funnily enough,
like, they end up calling themselves resistance without wanting to resist all that much at all which confuses everyone, but
think that's mostly what what's going on here. Yet I mean I I do think that's right. I mean there's my friends, Danny Shaw's men and Samaras and felt have a paper caught hollow parties and it's about internet,
phenomenon that even as american politics has become much more sordid along party law,
fines and like partisan politics. The only then
you in which stood like actually do anything that
parties themselves, don't mean anything to people that very few people feel proud to be Democrats or have a social identity as Democrats, even if they ve such identities, that very built around hostility to Republicans. So these kind of pop
brands yes right. We're like the resistance is something that many people who are not Republicans.
who feel very enthusiastic about an affiliate with to an extent that indivisible groups have like a subsidiary brand of
and all of these things are things that in a different time, that might just be the Democratic Party right there could have been, but hasn't been. A surge in like
people registering as Democrats right. Instead, we ve had these different kinds of searches in kind of Para Party type type groups,
Its created this somewhat murky. Like resistance concept,
I do also want it distinguish between mass politics, more keenness, an inside Washington cynicism because
I think there is a fair amount. I mean there's always a fair amount of cynicism. Elite politics, but I
around Trump there's been a real kind of triumphs of this sort of like beaten, switch that like
oh lives like if Donald Trump is as bad? As you say, you have to become enthusiastic about Mitt Romney right.
this inverse of the Ben Shapiro move the Eu Canada,
with, is sort of like we're, discipline and punish politics.
being done on the right words like either star
complaining about how Donald Trump is a racist or so
complaining that Paul Ryan hates Barbie really don't like Donald Trump, then you can have brought a bombing of speeches anymore. Rank is like broke. A bomb is present,
led to Donald hits. It gave a very weird amiable. It makes sense if you think of the fact that we have an opposition
culture war that is is
being contained by any actual institutions rate and
thing that empowers the other side in this culture, war ashore thy definition to something you need to stop doing. If you wanna way way, but it's like you know, and then I think I do it from whose very eloquent in and not at all like fake trump critic or resist her, but
He's really big on the idea that, like, if you really don't want far right, anti immigrant populous, like Donald Trump,
to take power, you need only genuine advice. Irish cracks, immigration and I guess I look at that night. I guess I don't really fear far right anti immigration, people winning elections as much as David from Does. I fear there.
Policy agenda being enacted and while Trump is obviously changed, american immigration policy a lot there have also been real limits
to how much change has been able to affect your weight, and that's because, like
hard to pass laws that America right. But if Democrats tried to lance the Boil Trump ISM bites
Moving on to Jeff Sessions is even Miller's.
Immigration policy, oil gee. I don't know by reporting four hundred thousand people a year, not that we had a democratic president. You tried that it all right to me
like? That would be a mistake to say that, like the
like the real problem here is that, like Donald Trump is so personally offensive that I need to
immigration agenda, enacted by someone who seems like us, like a swell guy.
I will also say, like they're. There certainly are issues where I would be like. Let's make a compromise to go when it here,
It seems strange just like from his personal.
When, in the centrality of immigration to tramp in the frequency, I feel
gotcha monk often makes this argument to that, like european social Democrats should like stop being so kind to immigrants, because otherwise people hate emigrants. Well, when elections, I read those columns uncle like no man like that's that's fine like sometimes
like fight on your shoes, you're not gonna, win every election. I feel like we're now opening up space. It could be out like three days what we should do. I paper here: let's take a break into a white paper. This episode
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this is a uninteresting paper. There came across my redder recently, it's called is rape. Culture predict rape, evidence from: U S, newspapers, two thousand, two thousand and thirteen. So
The authors here Matthew Bomb dark.
not so afraid of higher pronouncing aim there
hi guys browser cone is? I have now made everybody neurotic about UNESCO in your issue of what the.
here was a wanted to offer a quantitative and Alice
of whether rape culture predicts rape in a given area. Whether predicts both the observed incidents
of sexual sought like rape and also the way police departments prosecuted, you know what what what happens in bringing into the legal system prom is it's very hard to do a quantitative analysis of rape culture?
What they actually did was created in constitutional law, different experts, a textual analysis program that looked through huge amounts of local newspaper reporting, an exodus newspaper importing up to and including New York Times in Washington.
switch in New York and Washington, or are local newspapers? Try
to see in the newspaper boarding itself could you see
evidence of very culture there and in the way they look at things I got was? Was the newspaper reporting built or unquestioning what the victim was doing right? Did it a victim blaming characteristics? Was her a lot of sympathy for accusers? Like all this would like derail outbreaks
sure that kind of thing and end what they find and when we should talk about the methodology here, because I do think their questions about it. What they they find is then newspaper reporting that appears to show evidence of higher law
of rape. Culture in a local area does predict a both the frequency of rape and how it is treated in the criminal justice system, which is to say,
there appears to be more rape in that area and there appears to be a more sceptical criminal justice system when victims come forward to try to get justice after being raped. So that's that's what the paper? Fine, as you wanna, do a quick crime, nerd Sidebar here, because
If you ve done any work worker ring on the treatment of reaping the criminal justice system, you probably kind of
alarm bells go off when
started talking about the incidence of rape, because, just like it
hard to measure rape, culture. It is hard to measure rape in particular, because there are
many questions about when do victims come forward and what
those complaints actually pursued, and so that the authors of this
do. You get her round that a little bit they are using uniform Crime report data which generally measures rape at a much lower level than the national private conversation survey, which use?
phone surveys to ask people if they have been the victim of a particular crime. But-
it does, as as were mentioned, look at
How? What is the difference between the police departments telling?
FBI in the Uniform Crime Report data did a rape has been reported in
rest being made in the case in the use that as a proxy for whether law enforcement is pursuing it, because so
much of the question with the treatment of raping the criminal justice system. Is when he complaint
brought forward does law enforcement. Take it seriously enough to actually investigate it or do
just close it as an unfounded rape, accusation. Silly of the questions that this paper could
Yes, that is one that is semi address. There are also lots of other questions such as does this very synthetic measure of rape culture actually
reflect local norms. What's the relationship
the local norm and news coverage, and what's that
as arrow here or
a little bit of inconsistency about local newspapers.
selecting the norms that already exist in the community, verses local.
Newspapers themselves kind of purpose
Had she waiting these norms that might make some one last equipped come forward or
make someone feel that thing.
I'm forward but reflect the law enforcement,
not being willing to pursue the case here,
to me when I was
interested in given these
our relations that I felt like it would be an interesting whelm for sociologists or others. Govern too is the possibility that this is actually stemming.
The police department sway the yellow, there's something going on here that, like a local police department,
the same norms as the local community at large, which I think needs to internal, but also the these seem to be implying a like causal flow from the media again exactly department when it could go the other way around. Why did the people who report on crime issues may be taking cues from the police department?
about how to think about these things. You know I mean this: is certain kinds of people do certain kinds of stats, heavy work, and I know that you're gonna resolve that
More and more statistical can a high powered inquiries. It would be interesting to you no actual, like look into the guts of one particular community and how this coverage is generated, or
differentiates them because the euro, the idea that there's a linkage between these subjects is plausible, but the theory of how it works. Or why or what the lever change would be is.
unclear right, I mean- are we going to say that? Would you need to do here is show up at a local tv station and kind of harangue, the news director for a couple hours to change the tone of their coverage and that's going to change police behavior
can improve incident reporting? Or is it the other way around in? This is like really just a law enforcement issue from top to bottom.
I think they're, careful practically in the back of the paper, have a talk about that, but I did think one of the interesting things which is a little bit to the side of the main question, but was that they found that newspapers were much less likely to evidence rape, culture in their coverage.
One in much more competitiveness markets but too, where single women were more important. A newspaper bottom lines on they were at work
than average proportion. Raiders were single women. There was far less rape, culture and local newspapers than would be expected by chance, which did implied me that whatever transmission mechanism was happening into the newspapers
Was not solely from police department, a fact that it is also about local more,
and and and who the newspaper felt its audience was. But the thing about that is wild.
You point out some studies here
do demonstrate the newspapers feeling
sure to you
to a certain audience or two to differentiate themselves. We have heard about
stories over the last couple of decades, as local news has been really struggling of people deep in the editorial side of the paper,
being extremely resistant to any explicit business. Talk right like they really do, not like the idea that they should be cheap,
the tone of a particular story, because they need to cater to single women more and the implication you're. Well, I think that the the correlation that their finding here is it. They don't appear to have fudged. The numbers are fudge significance, levels at all
This is something else where I really would want to see some qualitative talk about
how that transmission mechanism works, because I'm just not convinced that that correlation speaks to
papers being more solicitous of the views of single women who are concerned about rich culture. I would in this is by speech, but actually didn't read, be implied mechanism. That way, I mean look like a fox. Our audience is
represented with some groups and under represented with others, and why
one way of framing that is our business relies more on the groups. It were overrepresented among, like just as we all
periods all the time there are trip wires that, like we could walk into that. If they are readership, tells us about very quickly right there
bullshit both as a business dimension, but it also just editorially is very attentive. So how can you get emails? You get letters you get like angry tweets about your story right you, you published a story that has a d
the option of a local rape case? It is very victim, blame me and all of a sudden there's a local twitter. You know like the local
blogs are all over you and in that kind of thing, I think, is a pretty straightforward transmission mechanism, by which the.
More of a community and the more of your audience effect at a total coverage, just by also raising sensitivity, different things, that's the point and analyse at that, but that also kind of I want to be clear because we have read the paper and yell.
probably have not, and if you are someone who reads these way paper before actually listening to the weeds. You should, let me know cause that's awesome by when we talk about in a rape culture
The assumption is that this kind of pervasive thing that it affects not only the things you're saying, but the unspoken assumptions that you're making even for you
The rapiers rape culture newspapers in this study is still only about five percent
of the articles in this corpus show
evidence of rape culture, and I think that you know too to commit
methodology here, then
may very well be that their selecting articles based on mentions of rape or sexual assault, which a
means, were already talking about cases that make it into the paper rather than just getting buried B.
means we're talking about cases where at least one side is referring to it in criminalized terms, rather than inappropriate sexual contact or
Sexual allegations are a lot of other euphemisms that people can use to describe these things. So it's a little bit
Weird to me that the right
and if this distributional curve the places where rape culture is supposed to be more pervasive? Are
only showing this frame and five percent of their coverage of rape and sexual assault, and I think that that might be
splain somewhat by the way that their selecting articles to be used here, but
also says to me that we're
looking at one way in which local mores can Bruno perpetuate themselves, that we are now
really getting the whole picture cause. I really don't think that anyone would tell you who really believes that rape culture is an important driver of the way that rape is treated in the criminal justice system that we're talking about a difference.
Zero percent to five percent of that
swimming but eight, but I think of anything to give them the researchers. Some credit where that, if the way you think about it, is that ok, so scholars over a corpus of generations of kind of positive that rape culture exists as a backward factor, driving actual events swayed like actual occurrences of rape
its criminal treatment of it. Then the question is: is like we're? Ok, if that sort of rape, culture, dark matter, exists, one place where implying manifest itself is in newspaper
coverage right and precisely by taking such a narrow filter right, we're just
we're looking at. Even what they agree right like are the rape cases
and we're looking at relatively modest differences in how they talk about the agreed to be raped. Cases.
We are seeing right, we're just picking up a powerful acca yeah
We ought to be able to really how how powerful ingress, just because the default assumption of rape culture is that it is a pervasive and fugitive thing. It's important for to understand when we're talking about this paper that we're talking about as edition
zero to five percent. Yet why does Russia for them? Because I think we should discuss this. They say it may be.
a smaller huge increase and rape culture to generate an additional article containing it, and this relationship likely varies across time and space due to the noisiest of our proxy. The magnitude of the IMF
the one additional newspaper article is for our purposes secondary to the direction of the relationship and our analyses cruelly show. This direction is consistently positive. What I'd say about this paper? Is it the fundamental thing it is trying to test? Is something I would really like to see tested and the way in which it is trying to test? It is an extremely
They put it noisy proxy here and you know something there things I well nobody's ever really done this before I like this, no good way to do it and it just you know it seems there is a lot of
me and academia, but when you look at any individual study, its clear, very hard to get money to do good, big studies and academia. This, like the paper that I wish existed, was you could look at five, ten fifteen twenty jurist
since you could survey within those jurisdictions, a battery of questions, it would pick up attitudes towards rape, sexual assault, etc. The kinds of things we talk about when we're talking about re culture, you know-
Does a woman who goes out in a short dress, ass? She, but you know like Bob off, then you could look on both surveys about like have people experience, different form
basalt harassment and then also on uniform crime data and see what matches up right.
As such, it does not seem to me to be a conceptually super difficult thing to test. It seems like an expensive thing detest effectively arriving
but I would like to see this paper do as convert some other people detested in a more direct way, I mean. I also think
There's been a lot of criminal, logical research on the assumptions that line officers bring to the job and how
a certain body of how that affects their perception of rape victims, and I think that you know I'd kind of late to see that strange come into contact with the people who are doing the work here and trying to find quantitative measures of rape culture, because if you are saying-
that there is a relationship between culture outside of it law enforcement department and the treatment of rape inside the law enforcement department. I'd want
see a more robust conversation about. Ok, how
these officers, who are getting these rape, complaints adjudicating them. What are they
hearing from their local community? That's shaping or not shaping those decisions, Howard,
being shaped by the way, their trained as law enforcement, etc and then
we could have a conversation not just about. You know how
Do we measure rape, culture and a community, but is this
law enforcement culture problem is at a local culture problem is emphatically which RAP
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-12.