The gang talks about recent developments in the Russia investigation, and Sarah tells us what she learned visiting Canada with Bernie Sanders.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I think Bernie Sanders gotta go to Canada with Circle, if not the other way around hello, welcome to another episode of the weeds on the box media podcast, Ass network Matthew, glaziers joined today by as recline and sir I'm at bay. Without a monster you after start here anyway. It's not that great emphasis as what happens for killing my white paper sure I did I'm taking responsibility for this with all of the ball bowler propaganda, which we will talk about and all the excitement of Sarah Cliff go into Canada with Bernie Sanders to learn about the canadian healthcare system. I did not have. through the white Paper and of asset we delay at the next week it go to wipe it s. Good
However, if I wanted to leg, I don't want a bolshevik livelihood it this is taking in the head and give it give it give it its do. Give it over this. Do this week by Mahler Burma, I've heard of him can I can. I jump been the off, let's stuff, let's hear about bomb or on Monday released, awesome indictments upon man afford and Richard Gates, Pomona for was Donald Trump campaign share and richer gates was his colleague in his consulted, lobbying international crime for her and then also his colleague on the term campaign. and there is a long list of indictments that ranged from me. No improper lobbying reporting tooth huge. of money laundering. I mean they really through the bucket these guys, There is also a guilty plea by a guy who people have not really been following that much in George Papadopoulos, and I really hope I'm saying that name right and That was a really interesting thing, because what it turned is going on. There is this guy has been called
with Mahler. It appears for three months. He was lying to lying two investigators, bustling very, very profound, which is it. He became a foreign policy by Donald Trump. It became from policy adviser believe it was in March. If I'm not miss remembering the timeline here when he said that there was a professor, ah who was I deeply tied into the russian government who, who he knew that at the time and this profession, came to him and said: hey. We, the Russians, have a lot of dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands of emails and Papadopoulos this came out. Maybe it was actually on a it implied to me. I thought that they possibly heard this on one of these phones. They were tapping, but whatever was it came out, they talked to him about it, the the ideal he lied to them, he said no. I talked to this guy before I became a Trump foreign policy adviser, it's all just a coincidence, and then they found out and they caught him and he turn any good he plea running, go to jail and abusive turn and with mauler, some people think it may be,
wearing a wire or otherwise reporting conversations. I want to talk about two things here that there at least two good angles, one that I'd like to make a start with. The second is: what happens? Does from firebomb all or what would happen if he did firebomb Moloch has this investigation is beginning to look pretty bad for them, but the other than that I do want to talk about it. How insane the story is now to believe that there is no collusion. So we know- and this is a partial list of things we know- we know that one of transforming She had knew about the emails from Russia in advance. He knew about them, they have been hacked but long before they were ever least three months before the day and see mills released six months before the pedestrian elsewhere? At least we know Roger Stone and other trumpet visor appear d for knowledge of the pedestrian emails. Given things you we did and said publicly. We know that when russian her russian government lawyer was said to her incriminating information on Hillary clinton- not all
Donald Trump Junior, but also Paul Mount afford, endured, cushion all took the meeting and trumped Junior said. If it's what you say it is, I really love it and would love to have it practically later in the summer by the way later in the summer is when the emails ultimate come out. We know that Donald Trump himself amidst all of this after emails had begun. Come yet goes and a rally stage and asks Russia to hack more emails. He says that he wants Russia to find it two thousand deleted emails from Heller his tenure at state. We know that, after we'll trouble Lindsey Election, he fires James call me out of fear, but Russia Investigation, and we also know of Jeff sessions that wise forgetting their meetings he had with Russians. I mean there's a lot of other circumstantial evidence here, but the final as we know that the crime at the centre of was really did take place. Russia really did hack all these emails from democratic affiliated groups and people. They really did the seven ways built out the Trump campaign. They really did do social media efforts on behalf of the term campaign, so you
these two organisations, the Trump operation in Russia there trying to do the same thing they for knowledge. what the other is doing. They clearly are interested in cooperating with each on both sides. And there are a lot of things were thick. We don't quite have the smoking gun, but we have like a ton of possible avenues of cooperation. I mean there's So the weird thing were: jar: caution: tries to set up a new coms lie with Russia that the american government countless in on it just be amazing, like it would be amazing at this point. If nobody ever took the final step of collusion like it will be the most mister, a good like phenomenal situation. If nobody got the fuck act together to actually clued given how hard they were all trying. All the time constantly and like that is what Donald shall wants us to believe in just like a little for you, so the warlike, pretty unbelievable. It is written.
we have to look at the story and they somehow they all got this close repeatedly and everything happened. The way you would expect it up and if there was collusion, but just like nobody ever quite Meda An old mark, greatly good seems very clear at this point. We certainly have evidence of openness to collusion like like be the meetings. The idea like you would want to take a meeting with this fair, sir, or with the guy. I am the Donald, Junior, was meeting with their certainly and openness to, this idea, and I think that for me like that seems pretty clear at this point from all reporting. I ve seen over the past few months from the indictments ever unsealed yesterday and I think that the key question is: how did it go further than that matter was do they're just this openness that, like they couldn't get across the finish line. In any case, it's pretty damning, right like that, there is lake, even if its they give their wasn't. The collusion like what happen
their between that openness to do it, but inability to get it done and maybe like the most generous reading. As someone decided, oh wait like we actually shouldn't do as this is not how we should run out. Pain, but it seems like more plausible, I was just the inability to get something done or or it actually happen, or other thing that is going on there is one thing I do want to say is that I feel like trump and team from has been very clever, in setting, using the word collusion so many times that has become this like psychological anchor and like now. We can't help but talk
that collusion all the time collusion, collusion, collusion. The collusion in this context- it has no legal me wait and even in its ordinary language, meaning it is inappropriate would collusion means is that you have multiple entities that are supposed to be competing right, maybe their firm competing in the market place or their sports teams competing in a league, but instead of engaging in the competition that they're supposed to be doing they are violating the rules and secretly collaborating together their colluding. you could imagine a charge of collusion being levelled against, say John K, six presidential campaign and had cruises presidential campaign right, maybe, instead of competing out in the open, they were secretly colluding against Donald Trump Donald Trump and the government of Russia are not competitors in any sense. So the whole idea of collusion
doesn't like make clear sense to me. So we're really talking about what ok was their communication between crumbs campaign and the russian government, but there what their clearly was. That's already been proven by collusion we mean communication. They are guilty, it has been proven. We can go home. We can impeach Trump tomorrow If we mean something else, then it's like what what what is it we mean because one trick we're going, into here as they're saying, ok, it may be the case. The poor man, a fort, was a criminal who broke lots and lots of laws and who should go to jail for his many many crimes. but those crimes were not collusion, but they were going to say I may be the case. The Jeff sessions have lots and lots of secret communication with high level russian government officials, but that's not it legal. So now we're in this like dance where it's like all the crimes are not collusion, but all the collusion, an isn't illegal, souci
but we were innocent, unlike That's not how the world works. Like I've been shot. I am always shocked and finally like a little appalled by how eager just basically hungry for sources political journalists are too like bend over backwards to justify things from and lots of people are taking very seriously. This notion that it was somehow ok that pomp and before it was engaged in years, long crimes spree because the crimes he was found guilty of we're not quote unquote collusion with Russia, whatever the fuck. That means like that. Somehow criminal investigations work, you're the target for the investigation that we should. Does it not found guilty at ensuring the HIV epidemic. Look if using he's innocent right. If, if the case for parliamentary fort is he did not evade taxes, he did not break foreign aid, registration law. He did not move the launder money, like that's great right by smaller, just a psychopath, going around charges.
like special, oh that wasn't the right crime exemption to things right. If your campaign manager is a criminal international security and vice versa, criminal behaviour. When we talk about it, I just I think too, Extend some of this collusion. Stuff is like a little bit. Red Herring and the Papadopoulos thing really gets to right, because he, the crime he played guilty to was lying to enough the agent, so you could say about even Papadopoulos you could say well, no illegal collusion there, because Ok, there wasn't what there was was there was collusion, which was legal and then there was lying to the FBI to cover it up, which is illegal, and you know what bad luck for you, George, but like it's just like the crimes of the crimes so I wanna make a couple of points here, because one, I think that we should look it Papa,
this end man afforded so I'm a little bit differently than your framing here. So wait. What you're saying is that you know they ve got all these charges it's bound afford that aren't really related to the campaign. They ve got this charge against Papadopoulos. That is, like you, don't know, big deal, but what he admitted them is a big deal. I think the way logic for reading these discharge. Last and and that pop up has had a plea bargain for for a low level crime that is pleading guilty to is manner for it and gates have not turned yet. I mean maybe may never turn, but They are not cooperating with malice investigation, they're not rolling over on people about them. Somalia has thrown everything at that, like so many charges. It is entirely possible. They will go to jail for a long time and that scary, I'm gaiters young kids. Be like they have laundered money like they may not be able to use. I wonder, Monday to pass the legal bills. I get scary is trying, in most people's estimation, to turn them and then some
previously he releases Papadopoulos thing or he shows. If you quit, right with him, which Bob monopolised is its very leading a charge. That will just be a probation right. You shouldn't lie to FBI investigators again, but you didn't stop working lives after a working life Bygones be Bygones and you know, do some community service and get on with your life. So one thing want to say here is that what is these lists right now is not the end of the investigation to tactic in the ongoing investigate investigation, be the airport with making I think there is a definition here whether the right word for this collusion, but there is something people looking for this reasonably specific, which is did that administration, have for knowledge and culture, operation with Russia's criminal activities to influence the election Russia illegally hacked into b and c servers. Illegally operated a fishing scheme to catch on, the away from eminent really simply Wikileaks did that,
administration, know about that. Did they provide them advice on how to do it, how to release it where they accomplices in what is fundamentally, I dont of crime is exactly right were, but but an active foreign espionage or foreign aggression, Similarly, with some of the other stuff, like the social media buys and whatever was their collapse, not things that Russia is not allowed to do under you S. Law is concerned to be allowed to do. If all that happened agenda is Jeff sessions met with the russian ambassador to talk about Ukraine, let me whatever, like that's actually far enough and if all that happened is somehow they had a bunch of meetings, they talked about how they didn't like Hillary Clinton, but nothing came of it will so be it, but that's also, I think, not there, but Russia did things that were not there, not. Okay, the rock considered okay neighbour, political system that I consider candor american law like we impose sanctions on them in response to this, and if the trumpet minister, The Trump operation knew about them and cooperated with them in advance. While these crimes were happening in
of going to the FBI instead of going to the CIA. Instead of going to some kind of authority and say a foreign government is committing cyber espionage to help us win action. Then you are in a much more serious space and I think that's what people are looking for here. I don't know how to prove it is difficult right, but doubts I think by the chinese people like Manna Foreign engaged term August. Maybe they would now so what I want to talk a little bit about its actually pc world today, Azra about the response from Congress on, which has been I think I don't have weak is the right word to describe it or non existent, but I wonder if I use word coward, Howard s to be a good one and so the things we ve been watching as Congress kind of react to this unfold on the unfolding, and it's I don't know what talking like such a pattern of behavior, but even as these you know, Big things were allowed, there is just now
reaction or grappling from capital, have also, Paul Ryan EM. How speaker he was asked about this. He told reporters I really don't have anything to add other than nothing is going to derail what we're going, what we're doing in Congress, you check out Azra. Majority leader mentioned Connell's website this morning. Last night it wasn't apes, eight thirty, eight thoroughly Monday night Monday. it may be, it is changed. I have not checked it out during the taping, was pot guess, delete story on Mitch. Mcconnell's website is Mcclarnon Iris targeting during bomb administration, there is no mention of Mueller and, like you can You can imagine a different world which is not in reply. gins calling for trying to be impeach, but Do they say like yeah? This is troubling, unlike we if smaller ones our help, we will help em like if there are things he needs. We
find these. We find these indictments troubling and we are willing to do whatever we can, as Congress two to help speed along listen, but again, but you do see any that and you could see the political case for something like that for some level of self preservation. I think not The ring yourself to the president of not getting caught up in these sort of things Even oh, you mentioned the there's legislation to stop pressing trump from being able to fire. Mauler would do something else you could get by and you could endorse side you could say we think Mahler should finish this investigation and I think we accept it this because we become so used to the partisanship of DC, and we ve got in very, very used to this level of cowardice, where you kind of don't speak out against Trump, and these like investigate friends on their public inside, but it really gets rid of a key check. In the government on what the president is doing and
It is somewhat surprising that you wouldn't want to distance herself in some way from this too, These, like say so, thing in favour of continuing this investigation. You don't go as far as calling for the president, each man, but you're really not sing, that from the people who led com ass ends I don't know of your entire globe and more about you wrote about it. I'd be happy to one of the points I make in this peace I feel very strongly about. Is that something that Paul Ryan, in particular, saying and in both Mitch Mcconnell Paul Ryan, imply at different times? Is that what they are trying to do is protect congressional prerogatives in action in the face of this constant distraction from Donald Trump in the media? So Riley literally says that in that radio interview which it, which is really beyond parity right, you can imagine it s an l, Paul Ryan, like work, these men Think things are happening on a radio interview of these concepts. Paul. Do you have any comment on the fact that a bunch of the president's campaign manager we just
dated eddies as yet. I do have a common. Nothing will distract Congress for what but here's the thing Greece is job in the constitution and in the design of the american political system is not the past tax reform that is not the main thing it does. It doesn't obviously lots of things? It comes first in the constitution, it is the most powerful branch of our government, but one of the core things it does is act as part of this checks and balances system, but that that the founders derived any created a system like this in part because babe afraid of monarchs and also they're afraid of public, and they believe the public could elect. Magog or a knave, and if that happened, You need some way of containing that the damage and so Congress has given all these powers is real ability to contain to exercise oversight. I mean look up a president who is at odds with Congress is truly hamstrung,
can be impeached for that matter. Right Congress, heavily others without on the lake inventive has Congress has sole how're to meet your brother. The cars get rid of Trump tomorrow if they wanted, and so Paul Ryan saying that amidst a presidency were heap, fucking knows perfectly well that this guy's really limiting that what happened with Russia if it were going on the other side of it going on any supporting this part of the meat Rama campaign in twenty policy. Russia is America's primary geopolitical threat, but I You know if desert, if they're gonna want my point, he would not be sitting there saying congresses Raul. He does not believe it like. He is being cowardly and anything else in the pieces. Are there? Are these kind of mounting daily like a little moments of silence and cowardice, and it's like you, don't respond to the small Trump tweet of the small outrage of the dumb thing Trump did, and so they began to cry. thing really You'Re- not responding in the small things mount up and it makes it harder, responded, big things and you you get in.
the gamble on a losing streak- words like you, ve excuse. So much that, in order to try to absolve yourself in the eyes of his beak, eczema need big win the unique pass for, maybe something that a round for you and it's not gonna, get that. I don't think not big enough to did to deal with what he's doing your, but also like we need to have a congress that exercises oversight, the tells the executive. No, you can't fire because if you do will impeach you're just we pass legislation says you can't do it. It would be good for them to do to his appointment in peace. The other day like they don't want to deal with the aftermath of buying more that's, very distracting from tax reform. There, sir, much more. They could do, they could have been doing from the beginning and they have like systematically tried to say it is not congresses, job to check and executive. We all know is out of control, riddled with conflict of interest and appears to have possibly one the presidency by collaborating with a hostile foreign power and like that is now Congress a job. It's a profound act of cowardice and institutional,
trail on behalf of the republican leadership. I think this way, quoting at some length what Paul Ryan had to say back in March of twenty fourteen when Russia originally invaded Ukraine, he said. Well, I think it's one more chapter and what happens when you project weakness abroad through your foreign policy? Defence policy and aggression filled that back here and I think we're seeing that the fear I have is that all the domestic problems the present has created there was Obama. I know we can fix those. I know we can fix it. The budget, the economy, health care, if we win elections in put these good idea that were offering in place it's the lasting damage to foreign policy in world affairs,
Can it be a deeper whole, we'll have to dig out of his country, and- and I really worry that the EU has put our foreign policy and defence policy on such a bad trajectory. Those gonna be it's gonna, it's gonna be have huge consequence. They gonna last a long time in the world, and I think the moral of that is that Poland is not cowardly. Poland is courageous. Pull my in four years has worked. He has worked tirelessly to make it so the rich people have more. And poor children have less food and medicine. He loves those causes and he believes in them really passionately and so to admit those causes he does amazing things right. He says at one point I am going to have the United States government default, on the national debt the advance, my agenda of helping rich people get richer right. He says I'm gonna write a healthcare bill, it's gonna pull it twenty seven percent, but I'm going to push it through,
because I've been dreaming since we were doing carers in college, of making it harder for poor kids to get medical care in twenty fourteen when Russia, in view It's a foreign countries is I'm gonna launch partisan attack on the present the United States. Help when the election. But my whole view on this is bullshit, because what President comes in for my party at the behest the Russians refusing to implement any sanction policy, I'm not it's gonna say nothing. I am going to be actively Do you really involved in a massive cover up, I'm going to time and time again block house floor votes on disclosure of the presents tax reform, I'm set up New House investigative committees to go after Hillary Clinton when he did that last week, rights of its US, it's another that he's dodging the questions when he goes on the radio peat bog. What do you have to say about this at all? I got nothing to say, but he has a lot to say about a right he's. Working with trade out he's plodding he's
can we muddy the waters on this. How can we help build the rationale for firing? Bob mala right, he's doing it, and it's because he really really cool believes that Sad is a gross injustice that rich people do not have more money and like it's, not cowardice. It's it's amazing acts of both this and like vision, creativity like the likes of which it is hard to comprehend and- and I think to me. that's just like its fundamental. You know like their accounts, it's out there, but there is no downside risks. Department. and saying from shouldn't firebomb butler. He would widely and universally claimed he is taking the risky all downside course of action because he's taking a stand for something he believes said. Galactic brain it's our pumpkin ass. They got that affect again. I got nothing
These days we are living in an underground world that practically anything you get when you want anything, but our pike stratum. And yet you listen the weeds when you want, when its community, where its commitment to you but you still going to the post office and dealing with with very limited our said, and why? Why put up with that, when you posted on demand with stamps dot com, so anything can do at the post office. You did you write from your desk the stance that com- I must only you can buy imprint official. U S, postage for any letter any package using their own computer, a printer, unlike the post office, games dot com never closes. So you know what veterans day you got to get stuff out if it's late on a Tuesday, you got to get stuff out, Saturday, no problem, you get postage whenever you needed twenty four seven, you don't need to plan out your whole route. You just like when you realize you need some more postage. You go on Some buttons use the printer, it's dead, simple, and it's really great. It's really so what
you need to know. The aim of this sounds interesting to you: use promo code weeds for a special off it's a four weeks. It includes postage and digital scale. So don't wait! You gotta! I'm stuck com and before you do anything else, click I'm a little radio microphone off. The top of the homepage had been weeds. That's I'm stuck com and weeds stamps that calm never go to the post office. Sir. I understand you arisen, returned you, homeland of Canada, a dead. I went to turn Nice it'll take Bernie Sanders with your idea. Actually we took the same flight. He said and wrote, what I said about twenty two? So he was not aid. They have any secret conversations, because reporter was sitting behind em brew, literally right behind him. Most diagonal behind him. Do that leave recline his seat
at the very beginning, but I'm prosy reclining o rely very frightening, but I won't any resources you Toby. We all get to recline her seat sooner. We all sit with seats, for where do we find referrals so yes, I was one of four reporters. You went with Bernie Sanders to Toronto Ontario this past weekend, for what his staff call them the official name was the am I dont want the pistol name. It was like the bike, Three canadian healthcare learning tore the idea is that Senator Sanders has proposed a single pair bell, and Now he is going to go. Canada to refine as ideas, learning The canadian system? I get a sense of what this looks like on the ground. According to his staff, they don't think he's Dennis trip like since, like the early nineties, when he was a very new senator and em there's some footed like Vermont Public TV of him, like talking about this trip, he took to Canada, so this was like the first international high.
Kara learning tar that Sanders as has gone on since introduce this bill and I went along with him with for it, as are the ideas. Basically, Canada has a single pair healthcare system of the sort that Bernie wants to bring to America, so we should all see. amazing Canada? Yes, yes, they, so, I will say you burn Sanders is a big fan of canadian healthcare. It wasn't there's learning tore, was like always shit. There heard these big problems, it was It's a great system. I really like it at some one is about how we can learn about how great yes it at some point is asking. What did you learn on this trap and he said well that Canada is so innovative, so it wasn't like he learned that there are wait times rationing, but I think it here on the weeds. We can learn about the Canadians, us that we can talk a little bit about what it is that Sanders is proposing, and I think there is actually one moment from the trip I found quite interesting thing. the things he learned about
were more about the values of Canada that let a single pair system exists and. that. Those values might none thoroughly existing in the so I think this is something senators Anderson I disagree on. He thinks as values are there. I am less sure of that, but what you reject, first like how to turn over. You did to talk about one thing that I was really interesting in in your piece first, which is that I think listening to them. and this is actually my assumption when I heard it- was that the idea that Bernie Sanders Wendy Canada as it is the nearest the universal Single Parish healthcare system around right, which that might actually be true but a point. You make it given the set of international models that are out there, what he wants to do is specifically like what Canada does and physically not like What Germany or Great Britain, or the Netherlands or France do as on other free She talk a little bit about that, because I do think it's interesting. I think people in kind of like imagine there,
all these other systems out there that are started the same and work and then there's our system, which is crappy and doesn't, but it is specific in a lot of ways and Bernie Sanders has specifically chosen it as a model. so cinders. If we will talk about the idea of proximity, consonant talks about how Canada's fifty mb- howls and where he lives in Vermont. We should learn about it as our neighbour, but I think it's actually something much deeper than that I think Canada is a country that, in its healthcare system, really prizes, equity and equal access, above most other things, and it makes it actually very different from a lot of single payer systems. I think one of the defining features of the committee system. Is you can not by private insurance to get by or faster access to healthcare. So there are a lot of healthcare systems, the one in Britain, the one in Australia where everyone is enrolled in a basic healthcare plan. But then you can buy a private play. because maybe you want to stay in a private hospital room when you got a hospital or maybe you want to get out of it
you and get to the doktor a little bit faster in Canada. Been so resolute in not allowing those private plans its everyone- is in the same pool it. Illegal to sell benefits that compete with the public plan. You can not skip the cue You cannot get your nicer room. Everyone is getting the exact same plan and that really such that apart from a lot of us, healthcare systems. Anything. It really appeals to Bernie Sanders when you know we talked a little bit about a tooth Anders on this learning tor and he seems to think they have really gotten it right and there is, a lot of concern about the possibility of a two tier system right now. There's this law suit that is expected to go up to the Canadian Supreme Court. That is true launching this ban on private plans, its brought by M a clear. Out and British Columbia that wants to allow private plan it really is it's a challenge,
the fundamental nature of canadian health care and a lot of people are quite worried that that would really changed. This is, They look in Australia. Critically. The people who advocate for the Canadian system- and they really dont want a system that there's one quote: I love am- I read it ago in this book by this journalist T our red who visited, I think, as eight or so countries learning about their healthcare systems by getting his shoulder injury treated and one scholar in Canada told them Canada were fine with waiting. We just want to make sure the poor people in the rich people wait the same amount of time and that's why I favour quote about the canadian healthcare system really seems to summarize at super super, while in each what dwelling on how short of unused while that is why do we not just internationally but sort of like conceptually read that when people when Bernie Sanders talks about how they should be free college education for everybody.
Not saying that by. We should make Stanford illegal right. You saying that the public should provide a free college education to people who want it that it should be. There should be a floor of higher educational quality that is available, but canadian health care is like a lot of fun countries? Do that without get right? There's, like eight a universal health care minimum everyone is entitled to, but in Canada. The floor is also us and there's just not in the? U S like we have lots of public services internationally. There are lots of public provision of different kinds of services, and it's it's rare, to have a system where you say: ok, the pub is not only gonna provide something on a universal basis to everyone is like we're not going and have a public library system, but there can be no bookstores, so something that, I think, is interesting work as it could be brought up waiting times a couple times here and there
not having the guy focused on this trip. But I should think there's something that we think about in a really poor way. So a couple just quick points here can, in England, get a lot of attention as foreign models for us, because their English commissioner, by way of an usually bad waiting times internationally, France in Japan in Germany, basely don't have one comes at America does have when it comes to so. But it is a case of Canada and Britain do have these waiting times, but I find our conversation about this. The borderline insane waiting lines are a form of rationing and you can be some country countries that you pay to skip them, but the candidate doesn't right the poor and the rich with similar at a time in theory, and in America. We have this other thing where we just have. People can't afford to get health insurance at all and they don't shop as having any waiting time, but their weight his functionally like infinite were his end.
Actually look at common, often, surveys, I'm just gonna pull the numbers up, but even old Washington, Post Post, honest, but all the grass or broken I kids, you then have resort. I maybe while the men I've been reading but airport thing, angli what it. What I saw that report was it. If you look at the percentage of Canadians who had to wait any met number of Americans who said they couldn't pay for some pay for a service and needed there actually pretty simple yet, and so you you were looking at. A Canada does have his way times in America, heavies people just Cancun, health care and that we say Can't it's got these waiting times in this rationing, but in Amerika we dont, but no in America. We do. We just do it by cost and it's not like you get to get itself we created by who needs care the most which, in theory, what candidate as we treasured by who can pay which is what we do, and it's not like just have to wait a little bit longer as it is kind of like. Sometimes you really don't get the service in America. You just don't take that migration. You dont go get that doctors visit.
she may be. You go to the yard arm, but I just think we think about this in a really confused way and it isn't it such as Canada would not be my choice for a system. If I were you notice, pasting and international, This demand. America, like Alec, France's better, like, I think, they're, better models out there, and I think you can do this without these waiting times. But that that the thing that is a problem, but the canadian system that always comes up is the generally worst problem in the american system and we have just Jupiter the data to not look at it. Clearly, yeah this came up a lot on the tour Bernie Sanders actually brought a few american doctors who kept making the point that we actually just as we have Canada has got a pretty good at measuring its weight time. They really became a big challenge like the ninety nine, these early, two thousands there now in Ontario, we're Toronto. Is a public agency that tracks these things you're over a year in the? U S, we just don't do that like we ve, you have no public can see. That's like here is how long you wait for an MRI in the United States and of some people who have the thick infinite way. You have some people,
who are indifferent plans getting to excess two different things, so they definitely have more info. Is about it and I think one of them things you will not have made the point in the debate on this really checks out, and I think was helpful for me to understand kind of the way time challenge in Canada. The we times for critical care aren't really is from a challenge. We were can do a lot of cardiac doctors, for example, and they said you know the weight time in their clinic is zero to one days the children that that Israel is the weight time for less urgent things, for it was kind of interesting. A lot of Canadians were clawing these things elective surgeries, but there are things like hip replacement, replacements, which are not like what I think of as elected, surgery there's something that feels quite necessary? It can be a real detriment, or cataracts are another area where Canada has some pretty big, wait, time, challenges and like yes, you are probably not going to die from your cat
acts, but being blind as a huge quality of life detriment in those the services where it seems like there is more of a struggle to provide them and do was interesting. I talked to this one doktor Daniele Martin, whose kind of become she had a few. Well, videos, after testifying before I'm, does a little bit about health care and windings. She said that she felt like made the canadian system work. Is that Canadians? perhaps sometimes they they will not always get what they want right away when it as an urgent. They only they don't accept that because they're like good Birds are like friendly, nice, polite Canadians. They accept it because when they we have an urgent need. This system will like spring into place and they will absolutely gets the care that that they require I am sure that, as soon as I can't do that the system really falls apart, that people are not is going to be like nice, Navy ends and just wait, for you know their heart attack to be treated. The canadian stop support.
the system when it can't deliver. urgent needs and they stop Oh I'm, ok, waiting a little bed for things that are less certain. aunt. If they see that there are these serious things that the system can't handle, but I think, come what we seeing here is that there's a visit finite amount of medical provision in any wait, and so in Canada. The attempt to allocate that by urgent read, so that's it. You get the outcome that, like really really urgent problems, getting dressed quickly, less urgent problems getting dressed more slowly in Amerika. We allocated by price auction ride so that an issue that you have the ability to spend a lot of money getting fixed will be addressed quickly and an issue that you don't that much money to spend on will be addressed slowly or possibly. Never I mean I wish only to a friend of mine who does
children's psychiatric care in an emergency were right, and so she has some people. You know, get sorted sent to her because there's an imminent medical emergency. Other people have just serve, had need they're, trying to get free healthcare it at the emergency room and thereby doing their best. But it's not very good ride like children. Psychiatric needs in the United States are met very very poorly because his high child poverty rate, and so we have just decided that poor people's problems, don't don't go much work much of a priority because I'm curious about since Canada. The goal is to treat acute problems quickly, but some has to make these decisions and like how? How does it? How does it work ride like just intruder sitting there being I will? We need, have you cardiac stuff fast, but will slow down on the hip replacement? I mean that there has somebody has to have like made. This rule said go into play, some like who who's in
yeah, so it's a lot of it is done at the provincial level, so their system is actually a little bit different from the ones that Sanders proposed in its Anders hosted national single pair system. He understand politically this instinct, he doesn't think that states that did not expand Medicaid are going to run single payer healthcare systems in Canada. It is very much run at the provincial dollar like equal to a state level here in the. U S, end they do. Is they you some kind of less to cut a set priority level? super something like a knee replacement. For example. Ma am I touch them both in Canada, clarity, level, one two, three and four and you're, using things about quality of life imminent harm it in my understanding and like if arcadians listening, I get this please tell me it is a It is a conversation between doctors, government officials like to actually create to decide what
already level people are at an you actually it's very different from the: U S, there is actually a central authority at the provincial level that is giving criteria. Ok here is that the priority for years, what priority three and then that is really going to determine like how long you wait for this, major, so any administrative level, it's more like medicate where the federal government is providing money and setting standards, but the administration is in the hands of of haven't, says and there's some variation right in like how it works. It is already in similar domesticated that, like the funding is split, I was talking to the Premier of Ontario, who told us like they re. Seventy via the federal government, pays about twenty five percent and the- if it's our little bit different, depending which province you live in a kind of various theirs, base level of benefits, but then a varies a little bit if you live in like Manitoba Toolbar, Verses principle, Island, so you could decided at the provincial
women could decide to like We could say: ok, we're here and British Columbia. We think summit waiting times for cataract surgery are going to long we're gonna like kick in extra. Yeah and get more again definitely do things like that are one of things we talked about is there is a report that came out from this governed, and say in Ontario showing that the weight time for new replacements for priority for me, replacements her high priority ones that gone up over the past year so now, Ontario that looking at like how can we What is their release valve and they think it's because they an aging population, more people just need never placements, and I think that something that is a benefit of a single pair system. You can actually have the central body think about how to allocate resources. They can also change the Bene. I am for formula one of the things on doing that am hasn't happened in any problem. It is right now canadian healthcare doesn't include prescription drugs, which is, if you
Bernie Sanders like what don't you like about, can baby and healthcare I'll say it's not generous enough. There's no coverage for done dollar prescriptions. Starting in January, Ontario is going to start covering prescription drugs for people under twenty five like to go the whole way they have enough money, so it really does give them a decent amount of authority to set their benefit package and to kind of allocate resources throughout the province. So one thing I just got here talk a bit about. His is a major touched on already, but it's a big books ever piece of us really interesting thing to pull out is that the Canadian? There is all this policy right. Dissolves policy in the canadian system, all pulsing, the Americans, the smallest policy and in Bernie Sanders is reform. Plan is Medica for all plan, but in Canada the policy operates a top, a certain kind of societal consensus that sandy Actually, I think routine identifies as like. The real question were we're dealing with here, but I thought
doesn't always frontal Bible. How are you gonna get people there or you want to talk about this idea of equity and how Canadians feel about versus how Americans feel about it? Yet, so I think there is actually something Senator Sanders, sad eyes, Sunday he was giving this big speech at the University of Toronto side. Note it was impressive to me what a celebrity Bernie Sanders as Canada students started lining up five a m to get access to this lecture hall to hear Bernie Sanders speak. So he, got a very warm reception in Canada in Theirs then he said that I think is so crucial to the single pair debate. He said the most important point I want to make is that how a country chooses to bright health care for citizens is not simply about practice of medicine. It is about the core values as a nation, and I a hundred percent agree with him there. I think that It really speaks to how you look at your values and how you think about what
important in the world as a government, and I think one of the debates that Canada has settled but United, States is not is whether it is the governments role to gear. He everyone access to health care and in Canada. This feels like a settled debate. This is something Senator Sanders said too. Supporters you're on the trap, when, at the end of the day we can about would you learn on this to our and he talked a little bit about our canadian healthcare innovative, but then he told us it was interesting to talk to patients who said we believe healthcare. The right, I think of you, walk down the street and you talk to people they would find it in civil, that somebody would not be able to get the health care they need because they don't have the money, and it seems like a pretty settled debate in Canada, but a pretty open question the United States. I think this is actually place or senators Anders disagree, a little bit. He you know says this is the key question, but then he followed up saying: why actually think, like most Americans agree with me that healthcare as a right, I think the
pulling that I was going through on this suggests that fifty to sixty percent of Americans agree that this is a right and the reporting I've done in you know places a girl Kentucky be suggest. There's a decent but people who who don't see healthcare as a right that there is also a great story by Togo on day that ran in the new Yorker on this topic a few months ago, where he was binding. Some of the same things that there's a that is at least somewhat pervasive and areas of the country that health care is something to be earned. We ve gotten used to the idea that you get health care when you get a job and that you you work hard and one of the rewards you get as a benefits package in your benefit package includes health insurance, and I don't know that were there on this, like fundamental question of, is the government's role to guarantee health care everybody, and I definitely don't know that were there in terms of like importing a system where everyone is in the same plan, there is no chance to buy out, I was actually just last: from a story that,
Scott and I are working on, were running some focus groups around single pay, our health care, and last night we were with a bunch of kind of higher income Democrats and the faster pretty nice suburb here in D C, and people were really like. Not do the idea that there be no to buy out of the system that there be no way in Sanders plan to buy better health care liked it was funny they kind of struggle that this tension, ideologically where they felt like. I should support a system were on the same boat. But for me. I want to make sure I can see my doctor and I would pay extra money to do that, and I think you know before I went on this trip as I often do, is thinking about all these policy. Questions like, oh, would be disruptive and like oh, would change everything, but I think before you can even get to like the nuts and bolts of implementation, we really have to think about like our we there are. Our healthcare system reflects our values and right now our healthcare system reflects the
you of being able to pay for a better care, and I dont know what they're on this idea of putting us the same system and saying yes, we will pay more the government to make sure everyone has access to health care. I would go further and not on what values are healthcare system reflects so a number of years ago I went through a period of really researching pretty heavily, why? Why was America, the only country that did not have the development of a national healthcare systems, some kind? What what why wide we become unique in that way, and there are a bunch of bucks on there's a bunch of academic studies of it did their lot a really good ones out there. But there are like form things I think are interlocking here that are just in useful to consider within this context, so one one thing is we just have all just bracket this? We have institutions, make it harder to pass big thanks, partly in a parliamentary system by Canada. That's one reason that a lot of things have failed overtime. Soap, so that's true too, but I don't think, that's a value such as that is an institutional constraint, but America
very heavy and and has been forever basically on this distinction. the deserving an undeserved poor it very, very woven into our culture that there, the poor who are working hard at trying our you want to Bernie Centres is a campaign site during the election. You would see this big splash. It says nobody who forty hours a week should be in poverty, and even that had this, this sort of deserving poor idea, right, it wasn't that nobody should be, and poverty which are blue centres does believe, but that that the way sell it in american politics is nobody working hard should be in poverty. America's political System overwhelmingly and its development of a social safety net overwhelmingly has been structured by its racism. Ah, it is just a case that a huge part of all this when think about solidarity when I think about, should Healthcare be a right, if you think about paying for people who do not filled with them like they're like them end. That structure is a tremendous amount of. What's going on now, Donald Trump puts a lot of emphasis on immigrants. You know
using public services are there's just forever been a lot of ideas. If we go back to Obama when's right, the bean Obama's free phones. There is of sometimes noughts submerged. Sometimes it's not submerged. Historically, it's not been submerged at all, but America's development of sir welfare programmes that require some solidarity, has been impeded by our racial divisions by our diversity. There is often not that far dozens of solidarity and then, finally- and I do think this shows up in that in the focused Cooper talking about americans- just much more mistrustful of the government and also taxation. Then comparable b of people comparable incomes in other countries in Canada, in great Britain and France, mean when you pull people, but the government does in how it does it and how they feel about taxes. America just feel very differently, and so we have a system that reflects deep scepticism about the government, deep scepticism about what the
or really deserve particular are not working and deep scepticism, a real lack of social solidarity, particularly fur for non white folks. You guys are running together too pretty different issues. He read like the United States, has a public taxpayer finance healthcare system that delivers benefits to a large number of non working. Poor people wait like it's called medicated, it's not an uncontroversial thing, but it has existed for decades when Tom Price
to cut Medicaid the way he sells. That politically, is by going on television and saying I'm not cutting Medicaid. So there's like some level of social consensus that medical care that is needed should be delivered to people regardless of income. I think that top coding of the canadian healthcare system right that the year turn me Focus group. Sarah, like that to me, I think, is a real cell red light Bernie Sanders is planned. Like have that feature, but when he talks- and I think we all desire like bracing, is our policy guy he's out of the weeds listener right when he says health care should be a right rather than a privilege, and people clapped for him. The instinct their appealing to is that a person who is sick should get to go, see the doctor and be taken care of regardless of their ability to pay
Not this like super wonky canadian concern about like whether or not a rich person can go out of pocket and pay for something else important I'd like I did. A hostess podcast like it in matters which are programme actually says, but I think on a level of values like there's a constant clash. You know in any country between, like people would like to not pay taxes and people would like the government to provide. More services, but I seem really little evidence that there are people I mean I just I listen to Republicans lie all day all the time about what they think about healthcare. None of them stand. and says the way. I think the systematic work is that sometimes you get sick and then you just die because your poor, rightly no nobody ever is there is a policy positions
often end up. There is a lot of power, but that's it we're done what the consensus, and so I am medicate. I actually think as an example the opposite of what you're talking about, because a lot of these states. That are decided not to expand Medicaid. They don't trust me give medicate to poor people like in those states. Medicate is restricted to pregnant women to recent mothers to people with disabilities It is only those classes of people who we decide. Oh, that those people need help because they have a particular situation, and because they're having a baby and like we want to help that baby ever better start or they have a disability. I actually look at them kids seven. I see a country that super divided on this. deserving undeserving that the people who Disabled people are pregnant there. It is bang, but if you're just like up poor San whose just poor, like, in a lot of seeds, they made the decision like you don't deserve to have Medicaid.
Figured out of season. I mean I just I think you have to draw a distinction between, like politicians, want to keep tat. His love right verses like what we don't see anyone say hack things. These states were gonna medicate for freight shore, but again they it's really telling. When people lie about that they lie about that they when they come Medicaid. They lie about the fact that their doing that but he wants to repay your empty right. In fact, they say Oh nobody dies in european players and tower is the requirement that emergency rooms provide free care to eject patients. White like there is like there is a profound tension between the absolute fanatical american commitment to not letting people die due to inability to pay and the dislike of having taxes in America, but I just like I dont, maybe Michael Canada,
now would be like will seek to stand up and say, like my view, is that if you don't have enough money, you shouldn't get medical care, even if you need it, but like nobody thinks that I want to go back to point you made. This is actually something I thought was really interesting in this focus group we did yesterday about this except the system and just trust of government. Wasn't that came up in these. We did to focus groups with eight people each and what kept coming up with that. It's getting a big Zacks moment. Democrats, expanding and expansion of government healthcare, their vote actually getting much more sceptical of government. They are watching the trumpet minutes, vision and their thing like. I don't think I trust the federal government with an expansion of healthcare that administration, has made me much more sceptical. Much more. You know, but it seems I get is created This weird obstacle maybe that reverses like you know we're not going to single bearing the Trump administration and maybe get a democratic administration, and that scepticism kind of like It goes down a little bit, but it was
obstacle. I hadn't thought about four and something that seem to me. Maybe a lot of what we had a look discussion about. Well, who sides, the benefits and lobby, I want the Trump Administration decided on events, because they're not gonna cover birth control, they're not going to cover abortions and I think that is senators, and that is an obstacle that become greater at the moment. The Democrats are having this debate when you have a amendment instruction. That is a rotating trust in government and I do think Democrats feel better about that. If it were President Bernie Sanders or President Elizabeth warn all just make one point on the sort of whole converse I do think this is a very interesting and important conversation, but it's to say that people are divided within themselves. It's not just divided as a country. It's all of us for the most part, and partly those which were not like professional political observer,
or actors measuring energy book about illogical innocence. I care member the name of an earth moment, but it's all about the ways in which it set you very few people who extremely coherent eighty ology, it's very, very small percentage of the population. Most people have a lot of warring impulses in them and are not primarily acting in politics and enter they don't like spend the time reading out the internal contradictions- and you can think of, is having like different modules Right Bernie Sanders. It diplomats point is calling them. Will that really does exist in most of us? This idea that no, of course, you shouldn't die if you dont of money for medical care, but there also other competing modules, it get called up right mistrust of of other Americans resentment towards the undeserving poor in the stuff there? Taking from you a mistrust of the government to desire not to pay high taxes, then of course, on the other side, fairness, solidarity, justice, compassion, rightly that these things are all real
and they exist in all countries, but there is just overwhelming evidence, and not just like survey evidence also to look around evidence that in Amerika the blocking modules are just more powerful I in other places we have a unique history and weave unique institutions and we ve. I'm involved in our own way that that makes a true were big country and when we have our own culture but We can get into you get a mistake when you sort of try to imagine either countries our peoples all one thing, right. Everybody's got a lotta competing impulses in them at all times, but in other countries that pulse towards solidarity has often been but a went out and parts because it has institutions that are able to go there, and I think that once you do implement these programmes, they prove very hard to dislodge and also because they allow these other countries had to be more homogenous, not leads to a greater sense of social solid Eddie in America. These marched these other sort of modules of block Alatas have one
over a long period of time- and I do agree with Sarah like I look at the Medicaid story- is a very different story than that doesn't mean. I see a programme that we very in a lot of states, most states harshly limited, very small classes of who we decided, deserving poor there was like this one moment finally of opportunity for democratic, like jammed this thing through they got it through, went to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court like Jack, like pulled it somewhat back. A ton of states, decided to refuse huge amounts of free money, in order to keep people from getting that that healthcare? Yes, they do. They come out a navy do lie about life- are doing it, but it's also there real revealed preference right. I mean it is showing something that they believe and that their political co she is willing to believe in to back them up on. It's not like there's a counter argument being made here, and I can augment is not usually proving quickly successful, though probably over time. MR. The match remained at what, I just think this is like, I think, is a useful
think about this, and actually it's one of sandwiches, great wrecking realizations. The politician is just as a real philosophical war. That has to be one or a lot of things and am looking about centres. Is he frames as ideas philosophically not technically pelican comes out and was like ETA? Here's my plan for college tuition and like yours, who had benefits and editor answers like Free College, like my view, is A college should be free in this society and centres engages philosophical fights more naturally than he engages policy fight is better at it and I think, he's more personally moved by it and I think that the philosophical fight he is engaging here in the court's you you gave out. Sarah is sort of the right one that a predicate to having a single system like the one you to have like the canadian system in this country is actually moving the country towards this solidarity, module and away from somebody. Those in way there has not been successful all yet, but you know,
be nice if it were right. My my view on this is actually much closer to Sanders. I'd be fine till I left some exit from the system the way France does but philosophically I'm very much where he is in terms of what how we should think about health care in a society, but I think that it would be dangerous to assume that everybody else's two equally dangerous would they did not recommend your favorite pie casts too friends, colleagues do not rate ass an on Itunes and and elsewhere, right emulates be every one and the same system listening to the same vocs. Media about cannot other documents by gas. Actually, so it do so. The impact with Sarah Club has been fucking. Amazingly, I can tell what, in this week's this week about one of my obsessions american health care, the ubiquity, a fax machines and that happened. It turns out actually in Obama Administration plan to kill the fax machine in medicine. It completely failed, and we to tell the story of logic: Wired
there is always asking you to facts, medical records and twenty seventeen ass well I'm so tired Vander. If I think your interesting, he had an interview this week with Russell Brand, the comedian whose apparently currency in a group your programme about religion and culture in something and is becoming like an hour guess that new system really really interesting unusual interview. I do share a lot of Russell Brands, views on things, but I found just like list. To him through the world like way more way more interesting than I had expected so toppings interest, I thought it was interesting, I think you would think it's interesting. You should go check out, figure interesting without Vander worth our mental model, as this week, I've James Wallner, whose atop former Republican Senate aid work verge of sessions for path to me. For my Lee and has a pretty- and in theory about why we need more conflict in politics generally, Congress, in particular not less, and, I think, is actually pretty pursue
save explanation of what's gonna, Ryan Politics and reads listeners would like it fantastic. So you know join. Those pie casts a word of thanks for from us to draw producer, Peter Leonard out, we'll be back with more weeds on Friday.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.