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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hi. This is David Rubinstein. The host of the New York Historical Society's new podcast for the ages join me as I explore the rich and complex history of the United States with a nation's foremost historians and authors. Listen to for the ages, wherever you get your pod guests at I'm, I'm really just realising. This is one of those that could be obsolete by the time. The episode drops in a few hours now Hello, welcome to another so that the weeds on the box media, podcast network, Matthew, Iglesias, you Jane, coasted, fairyland, really excited talk about fun white paper that, while spun
but before we use Norwegian Administrative data gathering, it's a game change it, but he wanted to talk about some of the latest news at the border. I have seen two things happening. I have been travelling a lot. I have been working on some big explain: errors about airplanes and Joe Biden and things that are not totally connected to
step down from tweets. It appears to me as a damage on twitter followers that he has said that we are cutting off all aid to Central America or at least to the lead. Northern triangle country is that asylum seekers tend to come from and also that he is strongly considering or once again threatening to completely shut down the border with Mexico. These are clearly thematically linked concepts. I dont really see what they have to do with each other or in particular what shutting the border down is was to accomplish in this context, but, like what is happening, I mean, I guess sometimes Trump says he's is building the wall. declares victory on that, but other times more of the time, he appears to be saying that there is a continued elevated threat level and we need to do something so where's, which makes sense, because even
it noted Builder Donald Trump knows that you cannot build wall in a day, a shock vile that yes, the potato. This does, I think, happened, I've look, we are, and we don't have the final numbers for March yet by over the last year, plus like really going back to February Twenties Urdu, sorry tat to fall. Twenty seventeen either though Donald Trump at the beginning of that time was still bragging about the early months of his prey, Quincy in which there have been many people opera apprehended there had been like an animal little low number of people apprehended at the border coming to the US without papers. Tromp was still bragging about that, but, like actual boy agents on the ground. Regional experts started, missing that the number of apprehensions was taking up again, particularly of families, particularly from Central America, that flow has increased over the course of twenty eighteen. Wasn't really arrested by the family separation policy. If anything
timing. Correlation works out such that it's possible that the end of the family separation policy allow dino smugglers and the media and Central America. Two hundred and hundred separate the message that you'll be ok. If you come to the U S, and so throughout the fall of law, last year it began to get really elevated to the point of straining border patrol resources and then. January, two February of this year, it shot up about seventy five thousand p all were apprehended at the. U S mix go border in February ever indication is that it in markets can be a hundred thousand. That is not something that we ve seen since the great recession a decade ago, Really, it's not a return to like the peak unauthorized migrate, of twenty or a one. when you two or so, but it's also really it's it's,
not anything we ve seen for a decade of its bigger than the Obama era. Was it twenty fourteen? Yes, there was like a baby. Is over the last couple of months it's been bigger than the twenty fourteen spake envy and you know the thing is that the twenty fourteen spike, with the benefit of hindsight we can say. Ok that was just a couple of months and then he died, die down really rapid We don't necessarily know whether that's going to happen. There is no indication that it necessarily will happen without policy changes through a lot of their reason that it changed. Twenty fourteen- and this is something that will get into an is that Mexico started getting a lot more aggressive in cracking down. on central american migration, so that stopped a lot of people from coming in there really is a concern. I mean some of the stuff that I've seen from other quarters about, inter
all border patrol modeling is that they don't think this flow is going to end anytime soon, chemically does increase through the spring, and so, if we're dealing with ten the earth, two hundred thousand people in Martin, then more than a hundred thousand people in April. That's really nod usual and it's not something the system has built for especially lake, even though a hundred thousand still fewer than we saw under Bush and a lot of the time. The number of families come in. A genuinely is, as far as we can tell unprecedented in the history of american yesterday and wondered agenda, because you, because you compared to the sort of Bush that the maid arts levels of unregulated immigration, but is it? Is it still there is that what we are we're seeing now is primarily for please primarily central American, rather than primarily single men, primarily mexican, yes, Absolutely I mean it over sixty percent at this point of the people who are getting apprehended her family August and as of a thing February, if not January, like Mexico is now the third most com
country anyway, for four apprehensions, aware at Vienna as late as twenty fourteen, it was the most common country. reason that this matters is kind of twofold fright One is that the Eu S system is built for the processing of single bascombe like its built to detain people and deport them really really quickly, and that doesn't work when you have people who are claiming asylum, it doesn't work when you have children who are coming on their own. Both of those cases are cases in which, like the law says, you have to give people extra protections and in practice it doesn't really work for families because of rules about what can happen to children in immigration attention, even if their with their parents. The flip side of that is that border patrol particular isn't in the business of immigration detention, so it even above and beyond these policy. Differences that make the way you're supposed to treat famine separate from the way you're supposed to treat adults. The idea of keeping people in
border patrol holding facilities, many of which are equipped to really hold people at all lake. They ve never really built no border patrols stations out in remote New Mexico that are supposed to hold large numbers of people at once. Much less children has to a lot of concern about the conditions in which people are being held. That's kind of the policy backdrop to the deaths of two children in border patrol custody in December. That's what sparked the outrage last week over photos of and outside essentially, you noticed, fenced in holding pen in El Paso under a bridge where borders all was saying they were physically having to hold people, because they did have any other space to put them like when we talk about the system being overwhelmed that, That means- and that's the other reason why it's so relevant- that these are families, because the american because a lot more sensitive to these kind of things happening to children, and now so we're gonna cut off
Guatemala rang ok, yeah. It is. so Donald Trump, because they're sending them here. Written gets Donald, Frumps Theory of immigration which there is very little resemblance to any real, reality that anybody else and his administration would say, but that is pretty clearly articulated through tweets and speeches. Is a government send their people to the? U S and, conversely, that if governments really wanted you, they could stop their people from coming. The! U S, be that there's really not any legitimacy to what migration, because people are met lying about why they want to come here and if they really cared, they would stay and make their country's great again, which is a thing that Donald Trump has said and see that the way to stop migration is to bully other governments into stopping people from coming. That's both
home governments from stopping their own people from leaving and in this case, Mexico being a transit country. You know that this is actually There are a lot of interesting dynamics here because met the mexican government under under his Manuel Lopez. Labrador is grappling with what it means that makes There is no longer ascending country for migrants that its now a transit country and increasingly a country of settlement for central american migrants and theirs. a lot of very fragile. Listening going on at the diplomatic level and Donald Trump, his just stepping all over all of that lake. The M low line is that it's, the most important thing is to invest in Central America, said to you know, to develop it to have a twenty first century Marshall Plan, so that people don't feel the need to emigrate anymore. Donald Trump Administration has kind of paid lip service to. Yes, we agree with Mexico Mexico's Gonna help us interdicted
migrants for now and we're gonna help Mexico invest in Central America going forward, and then Donald Trump will come in and say these countries aren't doing enough to stop migration. We need to stop the aid, and, as of this week, it looks like Donald Trump One out in that ITALY, there was never an argument that burst out into the open, but there were clearly Donald Trump, posing a very different thing from other administration officials? And now it is very clear that Donald Trump line is the line that setting policy on that. It's interesting also because there are a cup of coffee, international corollaries would enter arms of trumps understanding that governments should be preventing migrants from leaving. Yoda, thereby exterminate, yes, that which is a meat, but also more recently, the german government has been paying multiple african countries to basically restrict the movement of migrants out of those countries which is in you,
Europe's own reaction to the migration crisis. But what's interesting here is- and I think I would love to hear your thoughts on the star, because I think the first thing people were talking about on Twitter with regard to this particular policy. Is that won't this make everything worse and thus give Trump kind of Carte Blanche to crack down on the quota quote, caravans that alone people are arguing, would result from cutting off foreign aid and thus present the opportunity for Trump to be in? These are many even more draconian on this particular issue, but so it seems to me that you could you can conceptualize the central american aid migration linkage and a couple different ways where only one is Could you couldn't envision it literally right leg? Is it actually true that these countries are like sending people north and that we need to punish them to get them to not send it. Unlike ride like that's false
them. In some sense, you know if conditions ground were better in Central America. You would expect on the margin, fewer people to leave, so I've seen a lot of people offering the kind of hot take that, like Trump, is only going to make things worse. On the other hand, rightly, when you look at what would Jane said they get the at the european situation like you can in fact bribe countries with weak state institutions into jailing, their pop nation for you yeah. If you want them, and you probably think a great deal of money and really restriction spot of freight and as a developed first world liberal democracy, you probably wouldn't want to say that that's what you were doing
but something like a here. We will give you this very generous economic development plan, but also you might lose that money if too many people and leaving your country like that could work ride, like obviously would from is doing on. Twitter is not like shuttle diplomacy, but on one level I think like focusing, unlike how literally erroneous it is, can be a little bit misleading, like you really could imagine a universe in which the governments of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are getting generous checks from the state department of relatively. These are small and poor countries like the? U S can afford to give what would be a lot of money to them governments, and then those governments spend my on shore some of its own economic development? Maybe some of its on rule of law. Maybe some of it goes into you know, generals, pockets or whatever happens, and then like a lot of it, goes to yeah like cracking down on paper,
ability to Lee of like that is a real situation that could arise and if it were to happen, there would probably be some disapproving. Investigative newspaper articles and people being like. That's not really a good thing to do, but you know how upset with the average American beat. Rightly, people can get very emotional about images of children being kept in cages and poor living can since in the United States supervised by american jailers, but the odds that the people having those emotional reactions would have similar emotional reactions to just like thing you might hear about situations and Guatemala are pretty well. We already know that that's the case rate because there hasn't been a whole lot of. U s. Concern can domestic concern within the Eu S about view as this policy of increasingly returning central american asylum seekers to wait in Mexico, despite the sea
it concerns there about the commitment of the mixed government and the ability of the mexican government to keep them safe like there absolutely is a very big out of sight out of mind by us going on here, but while your general take is lake. Yes, that is a thing that could happen that the Eu S hasn't tried. The fundamental part there is the part where you'd have to spend money to build state capacity to stop people from leaving. Rightly it's not something you can just do on the cheap. It's something that, if you don't have if you're the kind of central government that doesn't have the capacity to guarantee the basic safety of your residents, so you don't have the capacity to prevent them from leaving, and so like that's the kind of double it's not it's not a double bind, but when we talk about security aid, yeah
in theory that could be used for nefarious ends, but if you're building that state capacity and successfully coupling it with like rule of LAW in Europe In stuff you're doing only a little more work, I mean it's harder work, but like it's not at times more work, and you are also making it easier for people to live in their home countries without jelly them. So this is it's actually a little bit useful to disaggregate the three. What are called the northern triangle countries here they were talking about because I'm always kind of the country where I ve spake has been the most precipitous over the last year, or so it is the country that has traditionally had the least problems with gang violence in total impunity in skyrocketing murder rates. What is happening there is a combination of really really crushing poverty, not least due to climate change and a backsliding government that is
resisting corruption. Reforms literally kicked EU and anti corruption body out of the country report using U S cheeks to do so and that has been cracking down a little on indigenous and land use activists which sets the poverty thing. That's the kind of complicated situation in which the Eu S has not necessarily been very good at intervening on the side of human rights in Central America, to say the least and its also a situation in which people fleeing that are going to necessarily have the strong asylum claims. Poverty even crushing poverty. Even starvation is not a legitimate grounds for asylum. In the. U S, Honduras is we're complicated situation, because Honduras does have more of a gang problem. and then there is a question of of El Salvador where there has been a really big drop in unauthorized migration. Since last summer,
That which has been totally you know, obscured by the speaking numbers from Guatemala to a lesser extent, Honduras, and where the weird aid was most concentrated under the second. I guess like the last five years or so so there have been people pointing to that same look. El Salvador is evidence. Aid actually work centre that may or may not be sure right, like there have been studies focusing specifically on unaccompanied children coming to the: U S that was won by Michael Clemens at the center for global development. That was pretty robust and showed that feed look here. Since in El Salvador that had earth across those three countries, but like particularly with El Salvador being the one where the most investment happened that had a drop in ten homicides over a five year period that drop in tone. Ten homicides was associated with six fewer people from that,
community. Coming to the? U s that, like at least when it comes to sending children to make the journey to the? U s alone, whether they are going to get killed. or whether they are slightly less likely to get killed them. They used to be does in fact appear to be irrelevant. Factor and security aid can have a pretty direct impact on homicide rates, depending on how it's done so It is possible. The broader does. Aid reduce migration question is alot fuzzy year, both because it doesn't always work you know a lot of it does get redirected. It's really hard. to guarantee the outcomes that you're seeking and also because, if you put it little bit of money on people's pockets on the margin, they're gonna use that money to migrate because the little bit they can get by staying. There is
nearly as worthwhile as spending that money to get much better money in the United States, especially to the extent that the concern the quality of life concern has a large public safety element right Emmy because El Salvador has been one of the most dangerous countries on earth for a while now and while it's a relatively poor country, its anyone close to being the poorest country right, I mean you know that the economic situation and to crime public safety situation have a relationship to each other, but they're not identical ride like if somebody plopped you down in an incredibly unsafe place and then handed you, some money like you would use the money to leave. The unsafe plays not just around and be like. This is great to rob me like that ended said that this is a big problem. Frankly, that you know it's really, it's been easy.
for both V Welland until a few months ago for policy elites on the left and right to agree that a while the real problem is that we need to address the root causes of migration, and so we need to have these robust partnerships with Central America. We need to be increasing our like co, policing, co, security efforts and we need to be giving them some money so that they can stop people from an area so that they can make it easier for people do not want to leave that
very easy consensus. It didn't necessarily reflect what was actually going to address the problem. Even in the long term, and certainly not in the short term, and so what we're seeing right now, with these really rapidly increasing levels of apprehensions and rapidly changing patterns of smuggling, where new tactics in fairly high speed bus routes through Mexico, early leading to people coming to different places, sick children and of an sick adults being more likely to get transmitted through because its less dangerous to take the journey. If you're a little bit sick and you're only gonna be on a bus for five days opposed to walk internet governance, we And so there are lots of things on the ground that are shifting really rapidly, and the kind of slow, steady root causes stuff as easy as it is to agree to, in theory, doesn't necessarily addressed the problem. Does that mean that cutting off addressed the problem, like obviously,
not by its a little bit harder to say that cutting off is going to automatically make it worse. Just because there are so many factors on. Let's take a break and consequent Mexico. if you like. Basically anyone listening to this right now, I'm willing to bet that you are you're dealing with stress, maybe there's kind of it like an overwhelming amount, or maybe it's more like a low but steady drumbeat background stress, no matter how you are experiencing stress. It's likely effect mood you energy in so many other areas of your life. You feel, like stress, is starting to take over straining relationships and shorten your temper. It's probably tend to unload and better health perfect, for that better help is customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions. Whittier therapists Should I have to see anyone on camera? If you don't want you it's much more affordable than in person therapy and you could start communicating with a therapist in forty eight hours.
I'm a distressing. It's an unbiased feedback. You be pretty surprise when you can gain for it see if it's for you, the weeds, sponsored by better help and listeners get ten percent off the first month, better, helped outcomes, thus weeds. That's b e t, t e r, H, E lp, dot com, slash weeds. This episode is brought to you by fan: do football is back and the best bet you can make is downloading the Fan Dual Sports Bookshop. It doesn't matter if new to gambling or an old pro fan. Dual has something for everyone and as an offence, you'll sports betting partner of the NFL. You know your bet you're safe, there's also, never been a better time to use, fan, do because right now, you'll get up to one thousand dollars back. If your first bet doesn't win, you can turn a small wager into a big payday with the same game, parlay that just sign up with the problem. mode Spotify place. Your first bet risk free on fan. Dual sports book down
vanderpool today, twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania first online, real money wager only refund who does not withdrawal side. Credit that expires in fourteen days. Restrictions apply, see terms at sports, booked out, fan dual dotcom gambling problem while one eight hundred gambler these migrants coming not from Mexico would just say that cannot mexican, but they come through practical and Mexico is big century. There is a large distance throughout the country of Mexico between Guatemala, Taxes- and am I right to think that the idea of shut the border down is meant that Trump is concerned per se. That there's like central Americans hiding in trucks at the ports of entry, is a way to punish Mexico to get them to do something. It is not totally clear, Wide Donald
tromp would like to set down the border. It is something that has been very, very fast needed by for a long time. One kind of gets the sense that it something that his advisers have told him would be a bad idea. Therefore he likes it. More lake CNN had her up yesterday that multiple times there have been briefings at the White House where Donald trumps officials have told him What an economic disaster it would be to do what he wants to do at the border and like he has gotten those briefings and his. really really wants to do it like you, do kind of get the sense that this is an idea that he has had that no one has successfully been able to talk him out of because he is convinced that he understands the right way to negotiate, but it's not really clear whether this is a strategic like an effort to punish Mexico in his mind or whether it's just day I want to look tough or whether it's you know my base is going to love it. Some combination of the three Trump officials are coming say you know this isn't to punish Mexico, we don't it.
punitive thing or you know it's it's it's not a jerk. Dinner's out, saying it's not to pressure Mexico pressure, everybody make mulvaney out, it's not punitive at all. It's because we need to shift the resources. That's also it teach. Officials are saying so late We welcome them as to warrant says that this is so when we talk about quote, closing or shutting down the border. Donald Trump can't shut the borders from asylum seekers like you can't stop people from entering the Eu S illegally. Obviously, if you could do that, he would have done that already he actually did try a version of that last fall when he tried to write an executive order that would make it illegal for somebody who was caught crossing between ports. three to claim asylum according to a federal judge. You s loss, as you can't do that so, like you can still cross into the EU. Illegally and get caught, and then
ported or used will cross into the? U S illegally and claim asylum like, regardless of whether the border is quoted, could open or close what from can. Actually control is the ports of entry where people and goods come through legally and so the assumption, and I'm probably to start using this in my writing. Instead of closing the border is closing ports along the? U S, Mexico Border, either all of them or some number of them. The agent. Has already said that they are so stretched, then, in terms of taking care of and apprehending migrants in custody between ports of entry that they are going to need to shift some of their poor officers to help take care of that like their ship. Then I think some seven hundred and fifty or so, and that you're already if seeing the effect that the ports thoroughly two and three hour delays in El Paso yesterday of people trying to get in because it turns out when you have fewer people at a port of entry yarning through as easily right, like that, makes logical sense and dear
The same will that's what Donald Trump means when he means running the border. Humans like it would be a last resort. Effort we'd have to be moving our people elsewhere. If this problem gets worse, will have to shut some ports down entirely because we'll have to reallocate those resources, that's also it mulvaney. You say you will notice that Donald Trump isn't saying anything like that radio things going to shut down the border for a very long time and that is going to make the EU s money. So the question here kind of in the immediate future is if Donald Trump was the one driving the bus on aid who's driving the bus on border closures. Is it the DE age, ass people and Mc Mulvaney who see it as a you know, a thing of last resort because they need to have these poor officers doing other things or is it a deliberate? We are going to show you who's, who move way I genuinely dont, know. I think that that its? always interesting and its continuing theme of the administration having to back Phil
What Trump says, while trying to make it clear, you'll, have admitted nation official saying that no no, no, this is what he means and then trouble tweet, something a bit like. No, that's what I bent and it must be extraordinarily frustrating in when you are attempting to actually do the thing to have your efforts to do the thing undercut by the person who telling you to do the thing I mean I. I was speaking recently to a former senior official and trembled ministries in, and he was positing pretty clearly that trumps preferred approach to these kinds of things is to make common cause. He doomsday threats right that you will take something that would be ruinous
right, like shutting down cross border traffic between the. U S, M exit out, be harmful to the american economy, will be harmful to the mexican economy, would probably be more harmful to the mexican economy than to the american economy, and you can create a situation. Which the mad man Donald Trump keeps saying. He wants to do this crazy thing, but trumps aids are restraining and then those aids can come back to their exit, counterparties and be like we're home this guy back, but he's crazy, Everybody knows he's crazy, so I'd you gotta, give us something to work with and meet the former four August. I knew he was not a fan of this strategy, exact I mean he said that he was annoying and made it hard to do things. It was kind of irresponsible. In his opinion, wasn't really necessary at the same time
said that, like, in his opinion, people in the press are a little too credulous of this idea that, like the president, has no idea what he's talking about or he's just ranting and raving on twitter that, like this, is a bargaining strategy that has pretty clear parameters too and that like he is trying to get em well to turn the screws in Southern Mexico, on dispersing groups of people and and stuff like that, so that this problem will go so here's the about on one level you know just playing just threatening me kamikaze card has itself economic implications right, yet the extent to which businesses freak out when you even breathe a word of Fort Slatter slowdowns, never mention. Port closures like in a way
talk a lot about regulatory certainty run out, and that is why I am saying my Roman ensures original wasn't like. I think this is grid like, but I think it is, but I think it especially important when we talk about something like this, where Donald Trump has been threatening it for you know often on, a while and now the european to be a little more on behind it. That lake there are going to be different. business operators who are going to have different levels of you, no risk tolerance. For how many friends do you assume are just bargaining chips? The other side of this, though, is what is immense, go actually doing ceramics go like the ammo administration has been at pretty much every turn extremely cooperative with the Trump administration on immigration enforcement and interdiction. They ve been not quite as
willing to take a large numbers of central Americans back under this in a weight in Mexico policies, as the Trump Administration might have later, at least that's kind of the sense that you get looking at what the administration says going to happen on this verses. What actually does happen, but it looks like the administration is going to start doing this on a much more widespread basis, and there were at least there saying they're going to start ramping up the number of returnees from like a few dozen a day to a few hundred a day, and so we're gonna see if Mexico's. Ok with that there, they ve been been large large groups coming through the S as as matter of fact in January, they took a group that was, out to cross into the? U S claim asylum put them in an abandoned fat. Every facility, and then after a few days when that got untenable, and there is a little bit of unrest, their dispersed them two cities further away from the: U S or like it's not exactly like animals, just letting them through right,
one thing that you can point out, is that when an low came into office, he due to the policy of making it much easier for central Americans to get him temporary humanitarian visas that we're gonna. Let them go through the Eu S earth. Let them go through Mexico to get to the? U s that policy was disastrously. Successful they'd clearly did not realise how many people would be signing up for those and they ended it within a month and like the trumpeters Frazier, appears to believe that there are still seeing the effects of that and humble who had gotten those visas come through, but lake. It's not what you can hell, am low. Please go back in time to December and undo this Georgia, and even over the last week lake in last week, the announced that they are deploying the military to this. Its mess in southern Mexico or would be
easier to kind of, contain migrants, the MAC last night. Yes, yes, last night, they took a group of a few hundred migrants and put them on buses and arrested on this basis, they're giving very limited humanitarian visas to people coming in now, like basically only kids and older people and people. Another accident circumstances, like is broadly, you can possibly say, is the result of trumpet ministration pressure, and so our later there was administration pressure before last week by the military what happened on Wednesday night from slightest twitter tantrum started on Thursday morning, so lake If this is a let's get em play ball play, it is showing very little sensitivity to actual steps that are being tee in the interim and it's happening at the same time cutting off aid, which remember that's kicking and in an lose vision for Mexico becoming a leader in the region, so, like it's totally possible that this is
you know threatening amyloid with a very big stick, but you ve also taken away his biggest care. So if this is kind of a genius approach to dealing with the ammo administration that something tat you mind, I really respect your willingness to act in good faith, that this is eighty seven degrees. I don't. I don't think I just think, even if it is eighty seven degrees trust. We should recognise that there is also another chess player at the table. Yes the logical and game of this whole drama. It seems to me, is that under the next democratic Administration M is gonna, build a wall on the board, Guatemala and make the United States pay. I mean that's basically what you're doing under Obama lack the amount of effort spent. You know I said The beginning of this episode, the we're gonna get back to twenty fourteen, like what happened in twenty fourteen The Obama administration put a lot of pressure also a lot of resources towards helping Mexico secure its southern border, and the results were
not ideal for human rights. On the order of some like hundred thousand migrants, you know, did peering over the next few years and reports of mexican police, torturing them, etc. They were very good, at least temporarily, for stopping people from coming to the. U S dead dead, seems to me like where this is probably had in writing on one. If you have people who are a little calmer about what there actually trying to pursue here Ok, I think we'd better. Take a second break. Then talk about lesbian. And norwegian lesbians, this episode, brought to you by own up. Every bank says they ve got great mortgage rates, so why are people paying billions of dollars and extra interest every year, because it's too hard to know what a great deal looks like for? You are unique scenario. Own up makes it easy to get the personalized data to help you make a smarter home financing decision, learn when a great
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Peters former mobsters, an undercover agents, and like Hollywood. All these stories are true new up loads drop every Wednesday starting September eighth list and follow up against the Bob on Apple Podcast, Spotify or your favorite podcast app Our white paper is called what causes the child penalty and its from statistics, Norway, and it's a paper that talks about same sex couples living in Norway and potential policy reforms, as relates to closing the wage gap that frequently occurs after women give birth to children, and the paper found that, while women in heterosexual couples experience a drop of income of approximately twenty two percent,
following the birth, their first child in this trap, prison stays the same over time. Their male partners don't experience a child penalty, and this has been something of a lot of academics have been looking but they noted that with same sex couples specifically lesbian couples that, while there is a child penalty of some kind? There's a thirteen percent drop in the income of the person who gives birth and the their partner experiences and income drop of five percent, but with lesbian couples. The mother who gives birth catches with our partner around two years after and from that point after about forty years after birth, there is no longer a child penalty and with same sex male couples. There is no income penalty of any kind,
so you that makes sense of you said that the populations were dealing with their aren't that many same sex couples with children. Let alone seems sex male couples with children. So I think that there is an important of layer of context and talking about who are these couples and how child bearing works for a queer couples. Boy it is interesting and talking about how specific policy changes that took place in Norway have impacted the child penalty. Ankle in pretended he leave maternity leave and just how those changes have impacted specifically same sex couples. Wait I mean you know. I think that the background finding here right is that we we often look at minimum wage gap issues in the United States and sophisticated vocs readers weeds listeners. No did that wage gap is most entirely accounted for by children and then the further sophisticated thing to know is that other
All countries have an identical sort of wage gap, and so whenever the policy Whelm is right, that would alleviate that. It is like outside the scope of the differences between the United States, Norway, Sweden wet wherever see you wanna go, and so was interesting. Is it so now the Norwegians have found like a change that does change, that's right, which is not an expansive welfare state rag has received from the international ads on that those that if we were placed the father with a non birth, giving second mother that gets the job that's true them, and I think this out the sounds pretty straightforward to me. Although unfairness they are seeing in this paper, a certain amount of reduction in the child penalty from early subsidized care, so it's not exactly lake well. Maybe somebody just stop big gray like in normal right, which is very generously provided
and country right, Emmy, you're, you're, really seeing here that gender identities and gender roles and norms are driving. A large change in behaviour with big labour market that's right, but I think there is also an ethics paper does get into the soul, but that there is some additional context with relation to do these couples are noticed that in general nerd gay men on average, earn less than partnered heterosexual women by partner lesbian women. Earn more than heterosexual women, and I think that that also plays into real. If you are a partnered lesbian couple or a partner. Gay couple how the having children works is a lot more of a deliberative process, and so I think that that adds into some element of context because
and to think of how best? To put this in general lesbian couples do not traditionally have children. Accident today, and so I think that there is an element to which that, by the time, lesbian couples are prepared to have children and are starting to that make that process happen there. They perhaps are in a better better financial standing then put a heterosexual couples might be so it's interesting you're putting me in terms of like a financial cushion questions, as I can also see it, laying into a kind of internal division of labour and gender roles within our relationship. Right like if you ve been going through this process of deciding. Do we want to have a child? How are we going to have that child? Who is physically going to bury that child those com
relations are going to make it easier, or at least more obvious, to bring conversations about. Who will care for the child? I read the child is born. Yet when do each of us plan to go back to work, is that going to be is is getting me no making it back to where we would have been without having a child an important goal in either of our careers? Those are things that lake obviously come in the context of figuring out which one of us is going to carry this child? If I there is going to carry this child in their womb right, whereas it may not come up until actual conception or later in a partnership where you haven't had to be going through all of that planning requisite. That does mean that the offer to me for future research here would be looking at divisions of labour and child penalties in couples that have struggled within four till it exactly ethic that that would be a really good point. I also think that this is again
thing that fascinates me about this particular line research and they, the paper mentions or burger, fell. The Berger fell, Pv Hydra Supreme Court decision that the conversations we are having a bout, the children of same sex couples are conversations that we're only really possible in a lot of countries too. We could start having this cup those conversations the last when he hears obviously yoke queer couples have been raising children for a very long time. But I think that the ability of to do this kind of research is relatively new and is still reflective of same sex couples who decide to stay partner and decide to have children are generally of a leg of a different socio economic status. Now, that's not always these state in the United States with the highest number of eligibility couples. Raising children is Mississippi, which is not noted for being a economic powerhouse of this particular country, but
Will you do to see in a cup yo and a lot of cases that queer couples who have made the decision to have children and do have children tend to be more economically? If not stable, come prepared for that, and I will say that you, on a personal basis, lake, when you are in a clear relationship and start having conversations about how one would like to have children. There are a lot more deliberations and the sea. it needs to be made, which I think is great, because I think that deliberations are helpful and you use you as dark saying you don't have the like. Oh will. Obviously this will just happen because nothing is obvious when you're queer I do Irina, madly, framing. This is a policy intervention is cute and all that lake I don't know. Is there an actual policy lesson out of this? That there is something in you know that that there is some
bundle of like other things that policy needs to look into figuring out, how to replicate, or is it just a question of Venus Research, realising men, I think that it is a little bit erroneous actually to focus so much on pure gap, issues rather than on actual questions about parental and child and maternal well being right. I think that the concept of the gender wage gap took off under a presumption that you are looking at a kind of crass discrimination rate and what the researchers mostly revealed is that you are not in fact, seeing that
and then we have a lot of pressing questions in the United States around here of young children and the parents of young children, and I think that the way this conversation has gone right, sir restarted with people saying well, nordic countries have like a much more humane approach to dealing with young children and their parents, and that then, the gender wage gap can alike swerved back in from my field to China shut down that conversation about Humane movement of important vulnerable populations is like well. This doesn't even eradicate gender inequality in earnings, which I guess is true right, but it achieving something very important trade and the the ins to me that, like this, goes away with same sex couples. It shows importantly, that, like this, it is in fact about the household division of labor right and that, like if families we negotiated these outcomes,
like you would have a different outcome. The right in the debt is much much much stronger lever then like how does the day care system work, but the day care system is still a powerful ever about. You know like people's time and opportunities and and well being and things like that. The question of shewed governments try to like me, engineer heterosexual couples to follow the nor he's made a clear line, as you know, is interesting. I dont know that, like I've, seen a really like compelling like proposition for like this is how we're gonna get that done according to the data you that they make the point that, while comparing the outcomes of children born to same sex heterosexual, sexual couples is not the focus of this paper. They do present evidence
children of same sex, mostly a lesbian couples, have higher math, English and reading scores and the effective significance than ninety nine percent for English and reading. So as I like us, the answer here is to do a lesbian version of queer I, but with parenting. Yes, oh yes, absolutely there an electronic data like music. So I everything that is probably true right did. There is a lot that straight couples could learn from queer couples who are raising children right because they are having explicit conversations that the person who gives birth to the child doesn't need to be. Quantum called mom right, because in that way you know do the gay couples that I know with kids. You know they do have a division of labour in the household right, but it's not a gendered division of Labour Court in court, at least the ones. I now obviously there's a lot of different kind of arrangement,
Are there but like people's put these things up differently, but there is a different nature to that right, both to how it is negotiated internally and how it is received. Surely right, because it is very much the case that, like hoses classmate, who had two dad's like She really did have to dad's in, in a certain profound sense that matter, for how the parents related to each other each one, things like that outside the household, and it is been striking to me as apparent like how much of life sort of tends to fall back unlike gendered socializing, types of things like moms, making plans together in an dads, and then it's like we're like what how how come like and see this one girl and, like all good she's, got to dad's right which isn't like a shining them but like they work out of the moms loop and the mom
We're doing all that kind of work cried, so maybe they'll says something I know it, I so that a bit it they're like various layers of these kind of inequities, and I think it would be probably enlightening to just like hear more about these experiences and when what comes out of them, that's true near and tell me I have not yet produced. This sounds like a great opportunity for the weeds Facebook group to tell it later. They queer parents of the weeds. Tell us about your queer parenting experiences. Yes, I like yes and also for a eventually queer parent. That is me. I am also deeply interested citizens because one of the funny things about being a queer person in the year. Twenty nineteen is that you like now meet queer people with children and when I was a tiny child growing up up Ohio. That was not a thing. I thought
that whatever happens so the hearing, the experiences of others is very helpful, but our on individual and larger basis. Let us now let us now, please that is. That is really. Could you the weeds Facebook. I'm excited we're all gonna learn something. I thanks guys. I think somebody for listening thanks to our produce, Jeffrey Gout and the beautiful return on frank, accessible, affordable broadband helps communities stored their american dream for students. Lectures on Chavez means rising above the poverty line becoming valedictorian of international High School Langley Park, and thanks to access from eighty anti can have these dreams turn into reality. That's my eighteen to you, making two billion dollar three year commitment to help close the judge will provide more Americans have chance to succeed. To learn more. Is
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-11.