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Live Weeds with Pete Buttigieg


Dara, Jane, and Matt sit down with the South Bend, Indiana, mayor and presidential candidate, live from South by Southwest.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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hello welcome to another so that it reads in the box. Media podcast network are mathematically season. We ve got something a little bit special for you guys today, over of the past weekend at south by South West, and asked him myself Jane Coastline and to lend had the chance to sit down with South Bend. Indiana mayor, PETE, Buddha Judge, he is, I am it really interesting. Guy he's a candidate for president in the twenty twenty election Are we had a really good conversation with him, complete with some question answer from the audience there the end after the second ad break, I think you're really going to like it. We got into some stuff with him about. You know generational politics. He would be the first millennial to run for president also some ideas around court packing some other stuff. That's that's a little bit outside the box. Wework this outside it in front of a lie body, and so it may not sound you don't exactly the same our engineers once you know it's not their fault, but it
It's really interesting discussion. I think you can order that banks have ready for coming out We had the you know inconvenient time. Change last night sleepy glad arise here on time, exciting to be any outside podcasting zone. Yes, some some of our colleagues frankly They didn't have the guts, for it is quite wrong, but we really appreciate it and we had our today by a fantastic guessed, he is the mayor of South Bend Indiana. He is a candidate for president in twenty twenty and in lieu of further introductions just play. bring out mayor, be Buddha, judge, and so may I want to know. I think it is fair to say we have a large field of candidates, out here and elsewhere is an exciting time. We have. You know we're used to a lot of presidential campaigns from senators governors, maybe the occasional Wilson
Eight impresario, not as many mayors of absurd midsummer city. So can you tell us who are you what what are we doing here this evening in this kind of the point. So I get did like thirty seven year old, midwestern millennial mayors are not traditionally the thing that leads to mind when you think about U S, presidential candidates, but I think that we need to break some of the patterns that we fallen into. That may the presidency that we're in right now even possible. So my story is coming from a community. That's like so many communities around the industrial Midwest as well as well as rural communities, where you grow up getting this message that success means getting out you gotta leave and that's what I did when I was eighteen. I got as far away as I could and immediately began really realizing that I was from somewhere that South band, which is this community. You may know one thing about South Ban, which is that we get a football team in the university there, but
progress it? We could? You have to add a mind, and what did we lie with all having a no fly zone in Michigan was written by a self employed worker back turned into a Michigan Notre Dame podcast areas are otherwise nobles its import. If you haven't been to suspend understand that this is a community that we're we're typical of a lot of the communities in the industrial Midwest, we grew up around the auto industry. Still we were company town for Studebaker and up until the sixtys, we were all about the auto industry than we happen to me University there now all that's changed, but but we ve been living with the legacy of abandoned houses and empty crumbling factories for as long as I've been alive and the reason I think it so important have voices, especially in my Party Democratic Party, from the industrial Midwest, is that we're being sold this vision now that they would have us look for greatness and all the wrong places basically
an idea that the way to our hearts and resentments and in that we want to turn back the clock and indulging nostalgia and which is not how come back for a city like ours is going to work. So I'm in my eighth, The mayor of the city we were described in national media is a dying city. My first year, getting it and now we ve got population growth fast. When we ve had in a generation, we got jobs coming back or downtowns connect life we dealt with vacant, abandoned houses. The city is rising and I think it's a metaphor for how America can move forward, which is not by pretending that we can go back. I don't think you can ever have an honest politics that revolves around the word again, but rather by
constructing a new future and in being honest about what will take to get to that future. That south been stored in my stories out of a mayor, a young man who would do its part to make that happen. So, ok, it maybe a metaphor, but it's also and actual city right leg. There are, and I think that, to the extent that you're saying that this is an operational model there, I I assume particular things that you're thinking about these successful able to do that like might be replicated in other places around the you asking. You talk a little bit about like a what in particular you think. Southbound has done that other cities need to be doing and whether that something that in oh, can be done at the federal
level, given that so much of municipal policy is something that is by definition. The federal government cannot and should not be involved, and, in my view, all politics as local, especially national. Politics knows that the issues that we talk about from from race and policing to the future of automation are getting cached out in individual communities. Individual economies an individual people's lives and what we didn't South Ben was too. As I said, we began with honesty, so Studebaker and any resembling that is not coming back, but we are in here's how we resisted the pressure that you seen from the president on down to understand economic development, for example, in terms of landing, the big factory right, getting the incentive. That's gonna, get the big employer to come and solve all your problems and instead talked about what you have to do to really create the conditions where people can thrive. Part of that is taken care of the basics, the things that have been DIS invested
across the country from infrastructure to neighborhoods too, you know at the national level, but also in state choices. Education, quite of it. A part of it, was understanding that we're enough to diversify the future of our industry. We can't just catch us, build a wall around the status quo. Hope it's gonna be the same forever, so we're creating jobs in things like data analytics and data centers on the very day, courage where the Studebaker factories once stood, taking advantage of some the assets they have that have totally different uses. For example, these power stations they had nothing left to power because the factories were gone. So what we want, we realized. We not that I, as the mayor, sat there and accountability to lean realised this, but what we
community realized was that that was an asset, because you need good power in order to run data centers. And then we look for ways to make sure that when you put up a data center economy, it wasn't just the boxes which are nice to have. You can collect property taxes on a, but it's not really a major source of large numbers of good paying jobs. But we realise that if we have the right quality of place to attract people, then we would see businesses that do the analytics around those around those computers, but again that quality of places. The thing that's missing, largely in our conversations about economic development, because we forget that companies are made of people and people go where they want to live, which means you gotta take care of everything from safety to quality of life, to having good ways to eat and drink and hang out, and that's just as important as finding the right structure for attacks abatement. Try to pick off some employer, that's deciding where to locate. So you are the democratic mare of a city. That's look at in a red state. Do you think that you have a
at her handle on some of the issues that Democrats faced in twenty. Sixteen, the Democrats are trying to kind of look forward to, and twenty twenty in terms of attempting to appeal, not just Democrats but also appealing to kind of democratic. My democratic minded, independence and others kind of out, like across the political spectrum, and to me, there's there's two kinds of voters as Democrats in theirs potential future democrats and optimism. no, but this is really important also because it is a very rich progressive tradition in the Heartland Maretzek, the big p progressive tradition was born in the hot heartland ocelot of a rather than to argue that, John Brown in Kansas, you'd american you're out straight at rationalists from Indiana William, Jennings Brian, I mean the heartland used to produce almost economically forward thinking leaders and we need to
I recognise that there is no iron rule that says the heartland has to be conservative. I think our party made a lot of mistakes in terms of our tone and our approach, not our values and our values are right and now we're on the cusp of potentially making another mistake, which is to think that appealing to the so called Russ belt involves retreating in some way on our commitment to racial and social justice, which is the wrong way to grow. The party, in my view, but rather what we need to do is find those ideas, especially fairness and belonging, that matter across different constituency groups. Instead of trying to talk to constituency groups wanted a time, so I want to put you on the racial justice either because, like the politics,
Racial politics, in particular of John Brown, are very different from the racial politics of William Jennings Brian, like there is definitely an argument that there is, I mean in Europe. This is a bit of a tough crowd for you, because both jane- and I are people who got the hell out of the Midwest Wee wee wee, both we're up in Cincinnati, and neither of us intends to move back to Cincinnati ever know and so but like, but I think that it's either of us have had experiences being other in various ways in our home towns and that's a lot of what force. What made us not want to come back to lake. How do you there is a certain midwestern, racial and social conservatism that it's legit. How do you deal with that without you Nanda Andrea? Yet you push it, I mean look when I came out his gaze, for example, the middle of a re election campaign MIKE Pence was the governor of Indiana.
and I was from a socially conservative community. We didn't know I was going to happen, but what we found was that we could appealed to just a sense of personal decency that when people actually know you it's a little bit different than when people talk about categories of people and, secondly, practicality, those like what do you do like the job I've been doing for you in the city or not and got one of getting reelect, eighty percent of the vote, so I think that there is a lot to be said for addressing people as though they were the way. You hope there will be an challenging them too to meet that expectation rather than just writing whole parts of the country, often assuming that they're going to be good. If you do that its fulfilling we're just assume that the middle of the country is gonna, be absorbed in the stallion resentment. That's pretty much what's gonna happen and we just can't fourfold polluted.
but also morally, I think we can afford to let that happen. So do you think it makes a difference that you know Studebaker Wendy Bankruptcy fifty sixty years ago, sort of it a generation earlier than some of the DNS realisation problems in other states, giving that makes a difference in making it possible to sort of get beyond nostalgia when you, when you get a certain amount of depth in time that may be, harder selling communities that are looking more recent past ya, think it has helped, because you know I wasn't alive, even see the Studebaker fact rang when it was humming right. It was a ruin. The entire time I grew up, all of those buildings were- and I think, if I ever had seen them up and running
we would have been able to imagine nothing else than trying to get him back that way, because I only knew them in ruins and because I had grown off among these kind of broken shards of of our heyday. All I could picture was ways to find new value in, but I think we ve got to accelerate the pace it will. The pace of change is accelerating whither without us. And, I think, a big part of what is at stake right now, especially in our politics, is, are we or are we not going to find a way to make these changes work for us and it can be done in an mated globalizing world that can be done. One of the biggest expansions we ve had recently
union. Auto workers, jobs in Saint Joe County, was on a line that used to make hummers and is now producing electric vehicles for a start up that is based in Santa Clara, where most of the investments coming from the Chinese. So there are ways to wire this up that works for and for workers where we are, we have to identify success in the change, because otherwise there's this message is basically saying you don't have to change right over. That's the the core kind of falsehood, and you know when you tell you, know we're gonna bring back coal. Something like that was really saying is nothing is going to have to change for you and I think people are realising that promise can't be kept. Well, we have to do is present
and in reality, where the changes can be more of a benefit. The knot and I'm not naive about the challenges involved in that, especially as things like automation, pick up and actually more worried about automation than I am about trade, but both of those are our trends that are going to continue to impact people and, as they continue to feel left behind. There is going to be more of an appetite to just kind of burn the house down, which is how I think a lot of people who had historically vote a Democrat walked into that voting booth and did what they did in two thousand. Sixteen point d, the kind of you no telling we'll hard truths about the inevitability of change turn into hard truths about. Maybe you do have to move out of your home town like maybe you need to. Maybe people do need to relocate to where the jobs are. I think it's you becoming more true that, where the jobs are as flexible,
What we are seeing in our experiences, people are more especially in our generation, are more likely to go to a place that their excited to be it and find work if they can then to be kind of propelled, two different places by the job market, I mean we all know the experience are going somewhere for work. But frankly, if, pure economics were deciding things. For example, chasin and I live in a house on the river in south bandits. It's got big columns, its historic built in nineteen o five fireplaces would paneling about twenty five hundred square feet. the mortgage enemy. Guess yeah the mortgage, about four hundred and fifty dollars. He added a taxes in the end, no you gotta taxes an inch or so so that rings it up to about eight hundred bucks sooner or later, people who died out much in order to have a parking place in bigger cities where there look commuting or or or travelling half the time anyway.
going to realise that maybe there's a better quality of plaice and quality of life, waiting for them in communities like ours, if their inclusive and welcoming communities and connected commute so I think, there's actually more opportunity than ever for have you undervalued or underprice places in the heartland to grow at a time when having to be physically close to a customer or a certain operation is less important than ever for large chunks of the american workforce. So I would Democrats for recently part about their tat priorities when thinking about twenty twenty and there tat priorities where healthcare, climate change, income, inequality, immigration,
race relations and programmes are than there were many priorities. So I am interested to hear on any of these issues where you think your experience as being the mayor of eight YO, a small city, can help at the federal level. I think that that something you as you are the only measure in this race right now. You have a different perspective on what works. said all politics is local bitter, then some politics is federal. Humanitarian, always issues about which clearly Democrat specifically are interested. You have to do is to go so climate change. Health care, income, inequality, immigration, race relations or so I'm an immigration, might my routes on that In addition, my personal words is the son of an immigrant are based on the fact that our community would not be good. right, so Mayer on cheerleading the population growth, our city, it would be net zero if it weren't for immigration by them.
Our cities are going in the first place a hundred years ago, and now we have neighbourhoods and almost emptied. There were polish neighborhoods, are now being reanimated once again with large immigrant catholic working families. Speaking spanish instead of polish now policy lies what we have to do. Obviously, company comprehensive immigration reform that has a pathway to citizenship. When you can have a grand bargain, where there's border security involved, you can emulate what the Senate did. It was killed in the house. Climate changes interesting because I've cities are where Climate is actually happening right, so my project as a matter of political rhetoric, is to try to save I, if you close your eyes and picture a new story about climate change. What's the bee role, that's gonna go through your head, there's, probably a chunk of ice right falling off the Antarctic, there's a polar bear somewhere that that's what climate changes. Only climate change is happening in our cities and neighbourhoods houses destroyed in my city by historic flow.
that had been way to historic to happen twice in Europe, and what does that mean nationally? I'm an obviously you know. The framework of the green new deal is one that we get a lean into there Aren t investments we gotta make in renewables, we ve gotta, rejoined Paris and probably do something more aggressive in terms of carbon standards and so on. But my goal politically is too tether that to everyday lived experience on health care. I think any community knows that its future depends on everybody having access to healthcare because, among other things, you're not gonna, have entrepreneurship of the kind that powers, cities and towns. Unless people know that leaving their job doesn't mean losing their healthcare, which is one reason why we need to move towards a Medicare for all
race relations, are probably experience nowhere more acutely, then, in the inner interaction between law enforcement, which is local government and individuals, especially in neighborhoods in communities of color, and we used to get a lot of support. My police chief and I got tons of support from the Obama White House on what was called twenty first century policing, creating tools and mechanisms for accountability and trust building and now the deal jammed under the current president has basically abandoned effort at the fifty km inequality, but that's it that's manifestly federal I mean we're were sometimes we I feel like we're doing what we can at the local level to make sure that that income inequalities being addressed in us, like you're, so you're pushing on a string this we have to have a fair tax code. We have to reinvest in the engines of social mobility. We have to say that is not acceptable to us that the american dream that number one place to experience the american dream is Denmark, followed by Canada? Nothing against the Danes are the Canadians, but that should be America
There are all kinds of part of what I hope twenty twenty will be about is what it takes to make that change any deafeningly that that kind of substance, Denmark for Canada, I think present trump- is really gonna get into get into the details, I don't care what it wants to go to them, as it is really important. Actually, so there there's a conversation going on about who do we want to put on that debate stage whose really gonna get to the present who really gonna get under his skin and get his attention and serve up that singer, that's gonna. Do women, my little singers? I think I'm up. How now is our? It's not the point, when we are thinking that way, we're in integrity, in which Donald Trump is the one we're trying to impress. We need to flip the script to where he's the one trying to get support from the rest of us, because he's out of step with the rest of us and by the this presidency will come and go so one of the reasons that I'm working so hard to have this campaign largely be about what the world will look like in twenty fifty four, which is when I get to the current age,
The president is to remind everybody that what's at stake is a lot more than one presidency. It's the forces that have made a candidacy like is which never should have even come anywhere within cheating distance or the presidency. Possum. if you like. Basically anyone listening to this right now, I'm willing to bet that you are you're dealing with stress, maybe there's kind of it like an overwhelming amount, or maybe it's more like a low but steady, drumbeat background stress, no matter how you are experiencing stress, it's likely effect. moods, your energy in so many other areas of your life, you feel, like stress, is starting to take over straining relationships and shorten your temper. It's probably tend to unload and better health perfect, for that. Better help is customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions. Whittier therapists She wrote to see anyone on camera. If you don't want you it's much more affordable than in person therapy, and you could start communicating with a therapist in forty eight hours,
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four teams of all sizes industries cook up to pleasingly features of one thousand plus integrations must have for anyone wanting to track manage intact. They worked in one place, you're, always back with clear up trade free today, click up the dot com, slash weeds, so it does seem like the politics of border security of changed since twenty thirteen, both because of Donald Trump and the wall and because Frankly, it does seem. The Democrats have moved substantially left on the issue, like I remember when the in the quarter, whom an amendment to throw a lot of money at the border that got a lot of Republicans on board, with a twenty thirteen sent a bit like that was a bitter pill to swallow for activists, but they set it up. That doesn't appear to be something there willing to do at this point. Like do, how do you get to agree? bargain, if the idea of throwing money at the border is no longer something that Democrats can accept, I think
we actually have a shot, protecting dreamers, establishing a pathway to citizenship, ending family separation and creating the the kind of rational legal framework for lawful immigration that this country clearly needs. Then we can also accept that, if we're going to have a border, it's gotta be secure, but that doesn't involve putting a wallet from seed a shining see. I think we can have this conversation, but I'm glad Once our entry into the conversation, our first offer is an already in the middle so that we bargain against ourselves the rest of the time. It's fine for us to be further out there today, and then in the negotiation will come up with something that that that we can all, however, grudgingly accepted will make, America dramatically better off and more just than it is today. The other thing that change about the borders that we actually do have an incoming flow. People who end up unauthorized in which was not ruin twenty. There came. The current flow of asylum seekers, like does a border security, deal mean in practice that your cracking
and you know the families that are coming from the northern triangle will. Obviously, this has to be backed by a bigger picture solution in terms of what we, what obligation we have, whether it's out of moral sensibility or out of self interest to diminish the demand right to diminish the push factors that have so many people fleeing that region for their lives, and frankly, american foreign aid has always largely been about american interests to do it in a way. That is also the right thing to do, and to date, the flow so that it's not something that were expecting you no borders security personnel to solve when it's really a regional security matter. So here you any young side for presidential candidate, they don't! I am, I think, soon I like about you things great somebody. I you know far from our generation seems cool. It's accidentally, hashtag related exactly with it, but then I think to myself like what does not make sense man or is this just like
now you're born in the early eighties, see once he somebody else like that, like white. What what? What is the case? You know we need some some change term of the page and new generate but like, but what does that amount to? Two other early eighties is a great vintage your ear millennium, technically right yet, but you can remember the smartphone, nothing thing out: half your life was peace and half your life was of war terms of what was going on with America, and you saw that the transformation that came with things like social media, and all this rate, but more than anything, it's just that we have a sense of the stakes of political debate. there's a weird period in the nineties where it felt their time about the end of history right, a fella. Maybe we just beat history, and like war was something that happened in other places and other times, and all these kind of upheavals. We read about her in the history books and at turns out,
like I think we lost our innocence with nine eleven and it's only gone from there with the recession and the current election and in all the rest of it. Like no word like the history didn't, then these forces are all around us and war to deal with right. We're gonna be paying the bill for the tax cuts, four billion years that rapacity that are for but we're gonna be dealing with climate change for the rest of our lives were we grew up a school shootings is the norm and we're gonna have to figure out what effects that all this stuff is coming down on our heads or will- and I think the appeal of somebody from that generation is just saying. Let's put in somebody who has a personal stake, not just a theoretical one, in what the world's gonna look like that How much of this is like? A? U ping versus generational thing I mean like as a kind of the the younger and of older millennials coming into the job market during the great recession, was like an extremely formative. Experience for everybody are age, but I do see a real difference between us and the people were a few years younger than we are who didn't have that experience?
who are you know who appear to be making more radical demands like we like? I personally have a very like head down All right, you know like I can't accept. I can't expect much out of the economy, so I have to do my job better, whereas it seems like the people who are a little bit younger have kind of start from. I can't expect anything from the start well and therefore the status quo needs to be changed radically. They must have Red rose emerging yeah yeah, like is that like, as somebody who is kind of a perfectly, has taken a personally conservative path of like a leader, local elected office. Do you think that that's a kind of disposition all different, between you and other people of our age, or I certainly think that the third disciplines that are imposed on you by living in a recession. I also think, though, that Yo young people are not wrong when they're calling into question these basic assumptions right. So we just we just live with thing
that we know are dumb, but we're just okay with like this is not a state as that's dumb, people in America who are citizens who don't get us? This is right so I'm using that as an example from our democracy, but but our democracy and our economy, or peppered with institutions and structures and habits that have gone unquestioned, maybe for decades or longer that I think there's A new generation is calling them all into question, largely because they're saying, if our political system works, how did it produce this current political class and not just in in the White House, but in the Senate, who seem to have no idea what they're doing if our economy works. How is it that the rising tide has risen more than any rising tide has risen ever we have unbelievable growth in production productivity, capability, and we can basically, if distribution had been worked out
everybody would be better off and yet so many people are stuck and the younger. You are also the more oppressive the student debt burden is on you reaching. You know basically dream, crushing proportions and a single cable? Why and not a great answer for why other than that, it's kind of been this way for awhile that when I took office and south, then those became band words in the county citadel, because every time is, why do we do it this way? So why are we always done it? This way is ok, but why and if the answer is because we ve always done it this way than that was time, review. Why we're doing these things so part of something I write predominantly about conservatism the gnp at one of the happening. It's happening among conservatives right now is very reflective of the idea that in some ways, Tromp appealed to a populist messaging during twenty fifteen and twenty six years, God you referenced, or we reference William Jennings Bryant one, because the cross of gold speech still remains fire,
because populism is a message that seems to have, but by partisan appeal, their conservatives we're making the argument for the expansion of the earned income tax credit and having a real conversation alike. be the government should do more now, obviously, among other conservatives that still anathema. But do you see that as a means by which you can kind of cross party lions in some ways making the public? Yes, the government should do more and do it What're, you go right now. We have this moment where this all these realignments going on, I'm everything's been thrown into a kind of almost chaos, largely because of a hostile takeover. The republican Party, which opens up all these new possibility. So whether it's the fact that a lot of people been voting Republican with their instincts are populist or or or frankly, more left word on economics or whether it's the fact it did. You know we're on criminal justice reform. It used to be very progressive, maybe even you know, dangerously
leftist cause turns out. You can stick together a coalition of all generations of of the left, with a newer generation, a libertarian dish, conservativism young people who also think again having just look pragmatically something like the war on drugs and noticed that it doesn't work even if they're, not from a tradition, that's attentive to the racial inequities of it, for example, and and make it causing build something new this in this remarkable buzz. I thank suddenly about reparations and the democratic primary. What what do you make of that? But in a think, it's coming from the same place right so there's this an injustice we just been living with. It may be for a while we could get by with it, because as a country because we told ourselves, we are making so much progress on things like voting rights through the sixties that racial injustice was being here. I think I came up Franklin and in people my age came up, maybe being told that
This was a historic think right, though, so, historically, there is outright racism and segregation. Now sometimes it happens by accident, but you know that's not related, because some people are bad people exact right right in bad people went away or there's a few bad people, but not many, and now we were facing the fact that it's not like that that there is a direct relationship between past racism and present racism that there's a direct relationship between past racially motivated, harms and current outcomes that there is a direct relationship that S father said. The past has never dead. It isn't even passed, and so its lead to this question of if the inequality between white people and people of color, that both of those not only the average disadvantaged people of color, but also the average benefit of white people are related to each other. Then maybe we gotta do something to require that now. I think this the beginning of a debate, not
however, I would actually have her lot. A credible articulated. Seize on what it looks like so the best I can come up with from a policy perspective in the short term is what, redoing around policy reforms, we now need to happen to prioritize the ones that have the strongest racial equity at stake. Ride like criminal justice reform, but also a lot of economic questions that have that same profile to them, minimum which right which we know disproportionately impacts working women of color, for example. But that's the beginning of asking ok, can we do anything? Systemic, that's actually fair and the conservative objection to even mentioning this right is that they can imagine a way to do this. It would be fair to people who don't think of themselves as racist,
and maybe haven't come to terms with the extent to which their benefiting from past and or maybe present races. But so I mean so there's attention that red I remember, went when Brok oh Mamma was president he's pushing what became the affordable care act, and you know this is a race neutral thing. It's helping people get health insurance, of course, lower income. People are disproportionately people of color, so there is a benefit to many people, but maybe disproportionate, in effect to blacks, Martinez and I'm Here- rush Lumbar characterize this programme as reparation right, and this is that's the politics right. The Democrats trying to say here we have a good idea that is going to help struggling people of all kinds and then like. Yes, it is true that more of the struggling people are. Maybe people of color but then its conservatives who are saying no no. This is racial redistribution
Right and now I hear more and more Democrats up on stage is like this doing the opposite and saying haha like what you might think is our race, neutral economic justice, pod form. it's actually the reparation this brain, unlike what like? What's the point of making that transfer part of its breaking the trap right? Because if, if you know the dark side of opposition to economic dealing with economic inequity is a lot of the opposition to it as racists, because people think of low income people, mostly as people of color then, it's very circular, because then the opposition to it helps make sure that most people of color in the lower categories of income. So we can talk about different flavors of reform, but the fundamental question is: are we reinforcing or breaking the tendency of these patterns to repeat themselves? and that's why I come back to social mobility right. The american dream can be put into a number and it's how many people in the bottom
quarter. Bottom, fifth, economically. Actually, make it to the top, or at least the middle, and that, numbers is going down, for some countries are better than ours at driving. That number and you can look for patterns in terms of the policies Do it we're getting worse at so when it. What does that about? mentally mobility and like this, I think it's really big debate where some people have said. Well, we, We need to focus on mobility rather than equality per se than other people have said. Will look? It's not a coincidence. easier to remind the runs in Denmark because the ones are closer together. And how do you see yourself on that Yeah, I tend to agree a fawn ladder camp. I mean you and the reason is the more concentration you have a wealth. easier. It is to launder that wealth into a concentration of power, and I think that's why what throughout outright things like the way money plays a role in politics today or
more subtle kind of patterns of influence? And, if you think about it as the top point, zero zero one percent has got wealthier wealthier. I, I suspect that the actual data day lived experience of being in the top point, zero. One percent isn't that different for being in the top point: zero: zero, zero one percent right, Eminem understood borrowing at zero, strange like if I had a a million dollars and I'm thinking of all the things. I would do that. I might enjoy myself a hundred million dollars right if I had ten billion it's hard to think of how that would be different in kind. So you think of the activities who have that much people who have that much. I don't think it's being spent on lifestyle. I think, being spent on power, its being spent on acquiring still more properties or or companies, often that can generate more well or its being spent. As you see with the code,
brothers on realigning american politics in some way, it's either to their economic advantage or to their ideological taste, and that lines then making it that much harder to live in a society that enjoy social mobility. We also have to break this idea that the fewer rules there are the easier it is to get ahead, but it turns out that doesn't work and we know that doesn't work as we tried it and its ox it does. It feel like. I am not sure that, and you know never having
had never having been in either the top point. One percent, or you know, put more zeros, and that, like must be no, does seem that a there's. There is a growing gap there with the hyper hyper super rich and be that there is more of an aspirational envy based politics around at the people who are not quite in the super upper echelons are still following the super echelon on Instagram Ray and like that of the kind of natural human tendency to picture yourself, as the victim of your own story can get, can get way out of whack when you're somebody who is objectively doing just fine, but who is paying attention to the people who are doing better than you like? How does that you know, and that's that's not even talking about changing the status quo so that some people have less power.
That's just like dealing with the status quo as it is. How do you persuade people who are convinced that they dont have everything and are the losers that in fact, they're doing pretty okay? Well, what are we for son or seventy illusion about how hard it is for middle income people in the middle class to to do what we would considers being ok right because of the insecurity of it, because it is the fear that goes with it? act that you could be more or less average and really a couple of bad turns away from ruin in your life and that some things I think we have to change with very specific policies, around healthcare and portability of benefits, and maybe even basic income and so on. But I do think that culturally, we gotta ask what are we celebrate right and into starts at the top, and it does matter It is one of the things are matters with the presidency right if the president is a billionaire who celebrates billionaires and thinks that
being a billionaire reflects greatly on your character, its different than if you have a president who celebrates achievements in the arts and the contributions of teachers and the civic life, and with the possible exception of military service, I don't see a lot of forms of non selfish achievement being seller It is by those who are currently in power. The sitting I would like to remind people have, as you know, no matter who the next president is. You can be dealing with Congress. That's where legislation sort of comes from limited influence, but at present does get a sort of pick there Aren t, and that is one way in which it makes a big difference who who's in office. And how do you think about that? If you're in the White House, you gonna call up the old, these isn't secretaries when the Obama administration, bringing back in, is under secretaries or is there is there's some kind of somebody
proud some. What let you having global agreement allows your talent for one of the first things you learn when you, when you assume an executive role, as you gotta, find somebody who's smarter than you are at each particular issue and put in charge of it so that they can give you advice and then what what happens? Is they wind up like you, you get the best people you can. room to solve some issue, an you listen to their advice and it starts to converge than that. It's easy right as long as you are come back to this one precondition, but then, if everybody agrees You like. Ok, all these people are smarter than me on these issues. Agree. I should do this if they don't agree, that's when you're about to earn your paycheck when it, because now you gotta figure out Ok, there's some very convincing reasons to go this way and some convincing reasons to go that way or somebody's reminding me that if I make this group better off, there's no way to do it unless I make that group worse off and you're beginning to negotiate. These are not technical problems, their moral problems and you need a team that can help. surface that now. The one big if on all of that is the team ass to be sufficiently diverse, where you have to have enough people who represent
either ideological orientation or personal background enough diversity of experience and thought that you're, not just converging as a mathematician, would say on a local optimum bright. That you're, not just it, sounds consensus. That's what he's got the same background. verging on the local optimum, is some speed, absolutely lands really well in the meeting greets nobody. I think, you know. I am analytical about this because I make decisions for a living. and so what I think about is how do we make sure we make the best decision specimen people's lives or other people's money is on the line and beer. That team means. Turning to people who know what they're doing it means listening to them and the other attribute we really need is people who will tell you things. You don't necessarily one to hear I'd. One guy nailed is job interview for cabinet role in my administration in south, then we'll talk,
being at previous implore notice that as the boss, everybody was agreeing with him at every meeting so one day he devalues an engineer and he developed a deliberately bad idea and presented it to the group to see what would happen and then what whole told him what a great idea he'd had they. They start to have a real process of talking about the obligation to dissent your heart and sure enough is one of them ones, most likely to speak up in a meeting. When I think, like things, you don't want greater. Actually, this is gonna work and yours, so something on asking about. It was interesting when we announced we were interviewing you and I thought it was particularly interesting, like as a as a gay person myself, unlike its really interesting to be talking to a gay mare and who is running for president and a number of people. Rick had no idea and for me part of the reason why I left the MID West or, as I did not think in two thousand five, I could be a gay person living in Ohio and not be a very unhappy gay person living in Ohio.
and obviously, since two thousand five a lot has happened for eligibility people both in the MID West and across the country, but one? How do you see that change in kind of the work that you are doing and to you? Where do you see? I am aware that this is like an identity, politics question, but identity matters. Where do you see where eligibility people who are working and act, in government. Where do we need to go next to make equality more of a reality than just a vision that we're we're we're starting to see achieved, but we ve still got way to go a very long way to go in and there's no federal equality active and get fired. For me they are in many parts of the country, including many parts of Indiana right. We have an attack and outright it assault on Trans people, whether and the military or whether in the high school, just try to go to the bathroom, and we need to be really intentional about
forcing that visibility, matters, representation, matters just having more people step forward as leaders who are from the algae, Bt Q community and can say it. But I do take a lot of heart from the pace of change. Right I mean two thousand five. Two thousand ten. When I started getting into elected politics in Indiana, you could be out or you could be an elected politics. You could not be both but The thing that I think is important, and in extends more broadly to this, this kind of question of identity. Politics is sometimes we use identity? He explained how our own personal and often challenged experience gives us a sense of what it's like Other, or you know the struggle that people are going through its very particular our community. Times. I think we can use it as a basis for solidarity and don't mean you know, I think it's very dangerous when we say I'm part of this ever. If so, I know what you're going through and that Albert even within the algae, be too I've no idea. I personally have no idea what it's like to be: a Trans women of color, for example.
But I know that I'm going to stand up for trans women of color, because I know they stood up for me. But there is also something else, a broader sense of solidarity, that's possible, which is that actually for me, like my marriage, my gay marriage the main thing that helps me relate to straight people. You know before firstly, for I was out of those with straight people and their talk about the relationships and their marriage is now trying to be sympathetic. I was, I was basically just guessing written Now this is actually the most normal thing in my life. Man and so marriage equality has really brought the sense of like oh marriages, marriage, you're gonna be married, people could do with a groceries and the dogs and in the laundry and in all the things unmarried couples deal it, and so I hope that we can take these different threads of identity and instead of pretending, they're not there. Organs, also, instead of allowing them to be things that divide us look for ways that they can be sources of common purpose.
Allah dirty among all of us need to come together is as the countries being wedged in Walden and divided. This happen, is brought to you by Fender Football is back and the best bet you can make is downloading the fan Dual Sports Bookshop. It doesn't matter if new to gambling or an old pro fan. Dual has something for everyone and, as an offence, you'll sports betting partner of the NFL, you know your bet, you're safe, there's also four been a better time to use vandal, because right now, you'll get up to one thousand dollars back. If your first bet doesn't win, you can turn a small wager into a big payday with the same game. Parlay that just sign up with the problem mode Spotify place. Your first bet risk free on Fan dual sports book down Van today, twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania first online, real money, wager only refund who does not withdrawal side? Credit that expires in fourteen days, restrictions apply, see terms at sports booked out, fan dual dotcom gambling problem
while one eight hundred gambler this episode, brought to you by own up. Every bank says they ve got great mortgage rates so why are people paying billions of dollars and extra interest every year, because it's too hard to know what a great deal looks like for? You are unique scenario owner makes it easy to get the personalized data to help you make a smarter home financing decision. Learn when a great He looks like for your mortgage, so you never over pay bills. Your profile today at o, not dotcom, equal housing opportunity and am Ls Idee number one. Four five await o five, I think go. I think we ve got time to take a couple questions for an audience if anybody centres that we have some so microphones, please hi there. I heard you last week on some other political podcast men in that, and I feel the really crowded Senate candidates you stuck out due to experience, has been a mayor, and I thought you made some great points about running a small business and all those different things. How do you anticipate mansion?
Some tough questions around you're, perceived lack of foreign policy experience going into the twenty twenty election will. I could talk about studying foreign policy is a road scholar at Oxford, but, to be honest, my best education in foreign policy came when I was deployed to wars, military intelligence officer. gave me a real understanding of what's at stake in the foreign policy choices that we make, and I think again that the reality, it is very rare for anybody to walk into the oval office on day one and be You know an expert on regional security concerns in the Caucasus and if they Do that their probably not an expert on? What's going on America or nuclear issues or cyber all the things that are at stake and national security and foreign policy, so I think part of it is again having the executive experience to tackle any complex issue were issued, set and knowing how to solicit advice.
Information and apply that in order to make good decisions. I also think that each of us, in this twenty twenty conversation, is going to have to communicate our foreign policy framework because the? U S, does not have a foreign policy right now and that puts us all at risk. My framework is based on the idea that every time we ve thought that American in could be pursued in a way that was contrary to american values. We ve been wrong and in many ways this is generational too, because sometimes it took a generation for that to catch up to us, but when we did something, for example, that proper he wasn't the right thing to do in the Afghanistan, Pakistan region, a generation later that came back to bite us these solution. That doesn't mean that we collapse into isolationism. What it means is that when we contemplate an action in support of american interests, we
bet it against american values and then, when possible, we consult with american allies, because the next president is going to have to do two things right away. Number one make sure that there is a clearer standard articulated to the american people for when we're going to use force, but never to reestablish american credibility in the international community. It is dangerous for us For all of us. When we don't have that credibility, you can see how isolated we were at the Munich Security Conference when the vice president was trying to trying to make friends out there, and I felt it when I was deployed. I felt when I was in Afghanistan that that the flag on my shoulder represented a country that was view,
It is keeping its world word view that way by our allies in view that with our enemies- and I really believe that that just as much as my body, armor was helping to keep me safe and if we lose that, I dont think that any of the solutions being kicked around in the Pentagon are gonna work. My questions for Jane, I am often impressed and, if I'm honest, the little horrified by the charity and gracious, with which you treat people who say and do some pretty obvious things are: that's that's your job. My question is: can you teach us how to do, We have ten minutes, Well, so I actually I earlier this week I spoke to a group of high school students and ask me well first, they wanted to know all of my political views on everything. and then I can access with t. Yet I was like ok, ok, we're not gonna do that. They also asked me like how do you do with people disagree, and I think that the biggest thing blessing I've learned is to come.
People with good faith, even when I am well aware that people are not tat, not interacting with me in good faith. That's not on that's not on me to determine or to have to deal with you if I come at them with bad faith and like a defensive mechanism like that's, that's how you play battleship, that's not how you have a conversation, and so I think, interacting with people in good faith. You know the most important things to me when I have those conversations aren't necessarily you will solve all of my questions or answer my questions. I I recognise that I will still have more questions, but if I come in good faith, I think that I have a responsibility to you. I have a responsibility to the people who read me or the people who want to talk to me to act in good faith. I think that's the most important thing. Otherwise you know we talked a lot about about being married in the most import.
thing is. When I come home. Can I talk to my spouse about what I did and can I say that, like I acted in good faith, even if they didn't- and I think that's how I do it- you are talking about how easy it is for wealthy people to buy power or influence and from a campaign finance perspective, we're seeing this sort of, while dollar online revolution right, which is good, and I wanted you to hear you talk a little bit about what campaign finance reforms, you think are necessary to sort of get us out of that place where wealthy people can buy that level, Power yards, I'm so excited to see. Small dollar fundraising, take more of a role even within the framework we have, which has to change, will come to that in a second but- need more people to express edit dated at grass roots level, but wait a bit selfishly. I'm counting on this because, in order to be invited to the debate stage and its sixty five thousand different people who go to plead for America Com- and it can be three
and you haven't done it. You can take out your phone right now feel free, ten friends, but really for me, and I think it was wise Dnc to make that a qualification instead of just how you doing in the polls and how many millions of you raised also matter personal campaign finance, we decided not to accept corporate pack money so that much more reliant on the grassroots dollars so structurally, though this has got to change and we just can't go on citizens. United, I think, was a disaster for our democracy and I think, even now we are under reacted a lot of work so well, do you know the constitution says you have to let money be in politics. This way in the constitution says yet let corporations be people. I don't think the constitution says that, but if that's really true or if that's really how it's going to be interpreted, then how about a constitution amendment. We talk about constitutional amendments like some crazy idea that could never be achieved when live in a country that changed its constitution. So you couldn't drink
and then realize. That was a double idea and change the back right Of course, we could change the constitution to defend our democracy and I think we're gonna have to entertain those kinds of remedies. If we really want to call ourselves the democracy that we believe we ought to be living up to sew up back to good faith Negotiations, so I wanted to bring up Mitch, Mcconnell and and the court packing that going on and an article that I read about your willingness to explore some more extreme methods. The dams are often call. higher ground with regard to bi partisanship, and I wonder how you view the future bi partisanship and whether you think some moors extreme measures are relevant with regard to the federal courts and even the Supreme Court eliminated Le Buster and so on and so forth yards. It's a tricky thing right, because I think that presumption of good faith is so important, and yet you have to make sure you not becoming or emulating the thing you're trying to be, and yet our sense of fair play has come to bite us again and again and again, a spy
we in the Senate, and so things like the filibuster, have to be on the table. I think, if its being used to in a bad faith, way to obstruct Denmark, see similarly with the Supreme Court, Do you know that I did it's gone? The most attention is like, let's just add, justices, and I get that, but then somebody else could just add. Justice is so there's some concerns there. I think that the less start with the problem or trying to solve, which is that the Supreme Court is on a trajectory toward being viewed as a nakedly political institution and let's contemplate serious reform, to fix that. So one thing you might do as adjust the number. I think if do that there are some other things you can do. Those actually great box explained around this. It's got a couple of ideas and terms for justice in Europe, colonel among action on a little concerned about the term limits, because if you have term limits- and you have Justice- is thinking about their future career and that creates some problem
so maybe there's a way to do where they go into a senior status or something like that. But it's not the cure. All that. I think it's being presented as I am very interested in a proposal or you would expand the court to fifteen members Ten of them would be appointed in the traditional one might say political fashion. Five of them would be seated only by consensus of the other ten that has to be unanimous, and so it just make. In a little less political and by the way, there's some evidence that you could do this without a constitutional amendment that you could actually just do this by law, but the let's start with the problem or trying to fix and then have a healthy debate over solutions. because we cannot continue to be in a world where every vacancy, where people are doing strategic retirements, maybe even like strategically deciding when they die, and knowing that every vacancies going to turn into this apocalyptic ideological battle, that weakens the court and thereby the country
so I went to revisit your experiences mare, since I think you and who we are Castro, the only ones in the race. With that experience, you talked a lot about revitalize south banned in coming to this conclusion that you have to remake the cities and bring people to the cities here in Austin. It's a very different experience in these sort of hollow out midwestern towns. This is one of these places where you talked about for people do have to come from work you have just recently we had the Apple campus announced. North. I personally am from Oklahoma, and one of the issues here is that when cities bring in all these people in bringing, although these business incentives and all those three growth, what happens is a lot of displacement right? You have the issue. interpretation, where does bringing in new wealth and bringing new business mean of shafting. These people often blackened hispanic communities that have been here forever. Now don't get to benefit from the growth assign. I'm interested in your perspective on how'd you re grow. These midwestern
It is without screwing the people who are mostly I've into something we think about a lot in our community because were racially diverse community and when that characterise part of what makes us who we are, and so on, and has a radically different set of problems and and solutions in a place like South Bend. I'm in here that the problem really is, rapidly accelerating growth and the displacement that comes with that growth. Part of that in that you have to make sure building, is done in such a way More housing options are possible, sometimes there's a certain sort of protectionist that that can happen sounds like I'm, not the only one is music experience that you also need to make sure that we would like what makes it possible for some people to bid up preposterously devalue some land at some that, I think, does go back to just and basic rights of income inequality. We ve also got to make sure that we have more transportation infrastructure so that people can move around in a region in a way that doesn't led to this kind of miss.
rated outer ring. That's trying, but spending as much money is as they earned just getting to work and are actually piloting potential solution on that. That would can re invent how public transportation meets ride sharing in south ban. If it goes well, bless me to share with the world a little bit later. This is a set of problems that is really different in different communities and it s. The other thing I would mention is that federal housing policy needs to be much more customize. Most countries organise housing at the local level and education policy, since at the national level, we might be the only country that does education policy at the local level and housing federally, which means in a community like mine, where we got a lotta houses that are unaffordable because their prices
so low. You can't get alone autumn. We shouldn't be applying the same policy tools that were cooked up to help make a situation like Oakland or Austin, become more livable and adjust for displacement threats that are happening with economic growth. There I think, finally got time for for one more question me back there: how does her so part of GDP is stuff? It's not just services. It's it's refrigerators, its cars, its things that we can buy except not millennials, because we all have stewed debt that doesn't allow us to buy these things. So once all the boomers are gone that aren't buying new cars, we mourn buying refrigerators are products going to drop cause. We can't afford any things paying five hundred dollars a month on a stool loan for a degree that I was promised would bring me somewhere, except it does it so What's your ideas on going forward student loans,
form, any way, shape or form. So this is a personal issue for us. We're we're dealing with six figure student that and it is for so many people in our generation. We have a system that was designed so that people people could borrow against their future earnings It just doesn't pencil out not only that it punishes you for or going into, I would argue very choice worthy feels like becoming a school teacher that are less lucrative than becoming a doktor or an attorney. So we need to do several things. First of all, the root cause just contain college costs, which means that states need. This Bob and there may be ways of federal Government- can incentivize that you know something. commented on how a lot of state universities have gone from kind of state funded to state subsidized too. Now Canada, state related, but the states not really doing its part to keep costume, we ve, also got to look at the structure of student that we look at. Why interest rate
are what they are and whether we can have a financing option and we ve got to think about whether we can improve income based repayable, I should say more, but we need to improve income based repayment and relax. Also, the cap on things like teacher public service loan forgiveness programmes, because those should much more widely accessible, then solving a couple problems at once: right, incentivize service and vitiating student that we This is hanging over the heads of an entire generation and it will stifle, as you say, economic production, and it will also to stifle the opportunities and the productivity or of our country. Education is supposed to be the engine social mobility, it's the thing that makes the american dream work well and with access to that is choked off orphan. The next generation looks at our generation and says
You did not do yourself any favours by getting educate. It's I'm just gonna take a pass on that. Then we are talking about penny wise and pound foolish. We are costing ourselves hugely and we will pay the price for the rest of the century. I think our sign areas flashing. Ass. So thank you so much. I admire p. does that thanks for listening, I hope you enjoy that special live episode with South ended Deanna, Mayor PETE, Buddha Judge. I shall want to let you know. On Friday. We're gonna have another special live episode: Roger you from South South West at this one is with former hugged secretary and seven twenty, a mayor who cast
it's another really interesting conversation? I will be backing the week after that. You should have regular opened its programming, but these were kind of special conversations that we should share with. You just want to let you know we're connecting an audience survey to serve you guys better. It takes like five minutes of your time, which is which is not so much considering. You know what help us make better by past. So we really so you can find the survey it box, mediator, com, Slash pod survey, thanks, of course, to our producer. Jeffrey girl come back right aid for our conversation with former HUD secretary, William Castro, accessible, affordable broadband helps communities, stored their american dream for students, lecturers and shove means rising above the poverty line becoming valedictorian of international High School Langley Park and thanks to access from eighty, and can These dreams turn into reality. That's my eighteen to you
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-11.