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in hindsight Trump relay should have just started out. We want Ballard chant back and twenty fifteen or we would have avoided this entire problem. Allow welcome to another episode of the weeds. Only vocs media pod cast networks, Matthew Glaziers, who would dare win Genk Coastal Washing DC, is town it's a town full of very, very bake in a desert, the government is shut down, partially shut down, which I think is an interesting separate because we ve done like total shutdowns and those if you live in Washington. Those are very funny because all of your, not essential friends, spend the first week like going to bars at unreasonable times and the second week. Everyone starts getting very board right, yet the best situation to be and is to be in DC and not employed by the federal government

we also get some of the lake Happy ordeals right, but we do not have to forego our salary for any type. Of course, like important we want to make in shut down. It is traditional that if and when the shutdown finally ends the people who have had to work over the shutdown get paid those. Those are the essential employees who, even though their department is officially not funded, they still have to work they. They then, let's get reimbursed after the shutdown has ended, that is not the case necessarily for federal contractors, which kind of creates another full of wrinkle when we're talking about the government actually do wing things out in the community, many of which are actually done by contractors who may not be getting those contracts. So let's go let's, let's be wheezy, ok, so so what happened? Is Congress pass him appropriation bills late last year that keeps the new. ironically largest portions of the government are running department

than Human Services Defence department. You know those there's a camera once a lot of other agencies, including most notably of homeland security, department of Labour, a lot of the regulatory agencies are in a state of shut down at the moment, and that is because Donald Trump has said that he will only sign appropriations bells that include, I believe, it's five point, six billion, dollars, because their initial line was five billion, and then the bill that got passed at the eleventh hour in December by the outgoing Republican House of Representatives was fine. point six or five point, seven billion, for you know for equal, unquote wall. It's not clear whether extra point. Seven billion came from, they didn't really specify what they wanted. The money to go to, but Trump has now kind of adopted that in typical Donald Trump negotiation vote instead of moving closer to

the other side wanted. He is moving further and she was it. We shall. We have four categories of federal workers and agencies that are happening way. So there are the agencies that are simply funded right so The oil is getting delivered if you make a new disability insurance claim, that is getting process. That is often these are the agencies that their appropriations, and that are just business as usual. Second, you have essential federal employees in the agencies that do not have appropriate and this is a bit of sort of legal hand waving. I think that says Pino. Basically, if you work, they don't just let the prisoners out of jail. For example, and they continue to patrol the border. So you know security type forces things that unnecessary to save human lives and property damage continue to operate. Those people do not get paid out there

a firm understanding that they will receive back pay when the government reopens- biggest. Do not do that would be kind of outrageous, but you know For the moment they are working on pain. Third, there are non essential employees in shut down agencies, so they are on furlough. I have a friend who works for the effort. He see, for example, and she is just not working this week and is enjoying a wherefer apparent opportunity to have, kids be in school. Why you get a day off from work, the downside to being followed? Is you don't get paid? The experience of past shutdowns has been that followed employees end up getting their back pay so for a brief, shut down. At least we will not get too stressed out about it other odyssey over time. The liquidity issue becomes deal then forth there. The contractor swedes, who have you, are a security guard in a federal building that has been shut down. You are probably not getting paid. If you are a janitor, if you work,

food service and traditionally notice some some trades about these kind of jobs that are different from the kind of jobs that are more likely to get remember as yet, and traditionally these people have not got reimburse, and it's really a double whammy right and because those sort of lower you, are in the socioeconomic pyramid, the less likely it is that you can just sort of bridge a couple weeks out of here. savings and re also the less likely it is that your actually gonna get back pay right. So there's like This is the universe in which, like the shutdown is kind of like fun times, unexpected January vacation, and there's a generation which the shutdown is real financial hardship and at that it's not even necessarily a universe is aid. This the time period, your kind of I kind of like in it too, when people described themselves as being fund employed and normally fun employment, though absolute longest, it can go while it still at all fund is what like two weeks.

and then it starts getting precipitously less fine, and so I think that you, even for employees of me, our agencies. I think that there has been a lot of conversation nationally about how even people who are making like Salaries may not necessarily have emergency funds, and this is a good thing, especially for when people are expecting paychecks. It will come right after the holidays. If people had travelled or bought Christmas presents, or something like that, this could be a difficult time. I think it is worth noting that this period can be really concerning for a lot of people, but something else I want to bring up in case people wondered is that the special councils office is still open and still being funded. Just in case you wanted to know if Robert Miller was at work, he probably is right that the other there is actually a kind of like fifth category witches agencies that are funded not for appropriate rice bills. In the example that comes up in immigration world, all the time is USC. I asked which processes, visas and such

because that agency is funded on the backs of immigrants, paying fees for applications like there's still going. I do think that the time factor is really something that deserves serves to be driven home as we go from were now in a longer shut down than we have seen since twenty thirteen twenty thirteen was like a few weeks As of yesterday senators, we're going around saying it could be months and months, which seems little bit alarmist, but like it certainly doesn't seem like. We are moving towards closure at any. Immediate point. so we really are going kind of from a short shutdown of the time of the text we have experienced. A bunch, too, longer were actually talking about missing paychecks shut down the first day on which federal employees would be getting a paycheck that they now won't is January Eleventh, That is not great as a political versus policy dynamic, because, as a political dynamic, the fact of the shot down is what really tends to shock the system right. There's this idea that lake,

This is a signal of uncertainty for the markets, that kind of thing and like to the extent that real people have money in the markets. That's real buy from the perspective of being government, employee or a person who relies on the services being provided by the government. The critical period isn't the first day after the shut down its when it starts to become clear that you're actually go. to be either working, unpaid and missing paychecks or followed for such a period of time that you're going to have a serious gap in your income or no living on social services that are not coming. There was a really great New York Times, peace The native american tribes that relies on direct funding from the Department of the Interior is growth indian affairs. A couple of days ago, alive, These not only are places where you know there are direct funds being paid for health care for emergency services for road maintenance. In places where it has been a lot of snow over the last few weeks, but also

Those services are often being dispersed by tribal members who have government salaries. So it's the double whammy of their roads. Being ploughed and people are getting paid so oh, that kind of the the people who live directly enough to government services, that this is really going to hurt them. That pain is going to get worse and worse as the shut down in Washington starts to see more and more normal and less like something that is in you know, emergency that cannot needs to be resolved quickly. I mean really interesting thing here. Is that you know dear friend administrations, have a certain amount of discretion in terms of how they play down- and this is an unusual shut down in that it was initiated by the executive branch tried. So the their shutdowns that we see in including the brief one under President Trump. There was a sort of centred around darker the Obama CARE, one in twenty thirteen, the Big Gingrich era ones.

and they re nineties. They all took the form of Congress, put some kind of policy riders in appropriations bills of the press, I wouldn't go for it, and then Congress said what we want. Past the sea are right. We won't pass a continuing resolution. The government is going to shut down until we get what we want from you, Mr President, events of the president. In almost all of those cases has particularly the Obama administration was very clear about this clear demonstration to these I wanted to make the shutdown dramatic right, so one thing that they did very aggressively and under Obama was the national parks were not appropriated, and so he shut.

those damn right. You want to write a big Jane across the front of the you now. If the world were to memorial right name, you sell these took on an almost comical aspect. Right because, like you can say, ok without the appropriation like, we can't run Yellowstone safely. So we need to close the park like fair enough, but like I went to. I happened to be in Philadelphia during the shutdown and like Liberty Bell is like just a discreet object that you can walk past and they have like caught him. closed the Liberty bow, and you can and you could not enough because it was shut down. So you can like stand outside the barricade and just see it, but like there was like a big I, like. You, can see the Liberty Bell, like the monument some more re, that you can actually shut down the worldwide to memorial like it doesn't require staffing, but it was close is anyway ride, because they were making like a big points like the government has been shut down. Right, just head cruises, a mania right. If you are a person who

wants to interact with this war memorial you should aware that this war memorial is a government entity and that the government shut down. You know if you're ahead of us new otherwise wouldn't care about the government shut down. You should care now for this reason and, conversely, elsewhere in the Interior Department, the Obama administration cared about the well being of native Americans and tried to do what they could around the margin to sort of keep. Though such services running this shut down is the opposite of all right, like the Trump Administration decided. did, they would not sign it. Sea are right One thing we could have said was look. We really want this wall, we want alike, have a bargaining process around the wall, we're not gonna, citing permanent appropriation bill. Until we get what we need, but we're going to keep things run. They didn't do that trump well, the shut down he initiated the shutdown

but then he doesn't want to say that, like you, average american need to suffer for my walk right, so he is trying to keep the national parks open with a sort of, skeleton crew of minimal staffers, which, when it comes to the war war to Memorial, like is totally fine. But you know we're hearing stories. There was this sort of early like inspiring stories about. volunteers, working ad hoc to keep by Joshua Tree Clean and stuff like that. You start to get too like the less inspiring stories, which is that it turns out that if you don't pay people to do park maintenance spontaneous Hurchel organization. Is I'm not really up to the job? I think it's also interesting, though, that lake, I think, for a lot of conservatives, concerns back there, But there is a lot of talk among some of the right that lake we should be rooting for a government shut down, because government shutdowns don't matter to real

Eric address because there's that entire idea, that, like people who live in Washington, are cyborgs or part of the Borg like that, we are Hugh episode of STAR Trek. The next generation of the creatures, maritime law, like this idea that this will only really hurt like those bad people who work for the federal government, and if you are not essential, got me, I feel like you. I had to National Sousa tweeted something I like it, are there any non essential people in like private companies or something I'd pointed to national issues as a non essential person. But this idea that this will only really hurt Like bad government people write anything, that's kind of white tromp was like. Oh, we can have you. Nothing will be impacted. Further normie is out there who have no connections with the federal government kind of based on the assumption that people don't care about like native american citizens or the other people who are very much affected by a government shut down, because I think that there is a site

dear, that, like the ideal American, would be only ten generally associated with the federal government ray. I think that this an amazing window into how people think of government versus what government actually is because the idea you know, if you think about it, the idea that you can somehow keep a national park open, while not having the people who usually staff the National Park, there makes sense you think the national parks are full of unnecessary employees who don't do anything, but it also does really. It is the question in the original sense of begging the question it contains the premise of the answer in the question it does make any sense. If you think that those people should be paid generally but should be paid in the case of shut down because the glory of essential worker is kind of a college around this. To begin with, actually doing earlier government shutdowns earlier in the twentieth century agencies kind of assume that lake hundreds and really want the government to shut down, so they kind of designated large lots of people is essential and that,

gotten narrowed as its You know, as shutdowns have become increasingly ideological and as the parties became associated with different ideas of how big government should be, but v kind of idea that it is obvious that not only in our frontline border patrol agents but ice agent who are doing interior enforcement, who aren't in the front lines. In the same way, obviously essential, because law enforcement, but some He, who is you, know, working in an immigration court, even though that is immigration. Courts are urge Dear David ICE Prosecutor, are under the age, ass and so the immigration. Words have been. Many of them have been closed for duration of the shutdown with matters. If you want to actually deport someone has an immigration court is where they would get their actual removal order, but it's also just The idea that the law enforcement officer is obviously essential in the prosecutor is obviously not is there

very narrow, night, watchman state, it's not about what policy aims you want government to pursue its about, who were the individuals in the working in government the evaluation. So what should we should talk? I think about the whole history of shit right, which is for the future. Two hundred or so years of american history, this didn't happen. the way the federal government worked with, The treasury would continue to disperse funds and keep doing things what's it received instructions from Congress to change what it was doing and so in fact They just always assumed that there was what we now call a continuing resolution read this. at its core would just continue until a law changed and there was a mechanical question about the sort of flow of me. me in and out of the Treasury department, but that it always happened, swayed like it. If you think about how you pay your tax write. My comes into Treasury and like big, random lumps and then it comes out at a much more steady pace,

right so Congress would Congress appropriates funds. It's only. They walk a giant sack of gold from the capital over the treasury or something like that. So what things will just continue. Then, when Jimmy Carter was president, he got annoyed that appropriations bills kept missing their deadlines and they felt that Congress was not taking seriously the obligation to do appropriations on an annual basis and the attorney general, the time been civility decided heavy. renew a different legal interpretation of what happened when appropriations lapsed, and so he said, well, there's no valid appropriation. The agency has to shut down So then that ways they like obvious practical question mean again like do you just say the prison guards don't show up to work because, like that's absurd right

By the same token, even the non essential employees, like you, get a certain number. You get like a half day by default and then your agency can essentially notify the rest of the federal government were actually giving these people a full day because that's what it It is for them to wrap up their business in a timely fashion, was right, you're, starting to be an evolving case law right, we're Like civil laddie created this idea that ok, the government had to shut down in appropriations labs, but of course we wouldn't shut down the people who are genuinely essential right. Then you had the Clinton administration where nuclear which, like sought a shut down to make a political point, The Clinton administration thought correctly that this was a political battle that they could win so? They waged it as a political battle right boy. trying to make sure that nothing disastrous happen to normal people. Like in terms of essential needs, but also that, like it was annoying right, leg

we're trying to annoy regular Americans to make regular Americans annoyed at Nootka language, and that Doctrine continued through these sort of Obama shut down within Russia became more rooting Ized you started to get to when things went in one with his door was saying this kind of procedure or less right, and so How many days can you use your existing funds? How do you say? Ok, we need the orderly shut down procedure, but in the The thing was the evolution on the republic inside into thinking not really in terms of this is essential. This is not essential divide, but into the visa. The good people- and these are the bad people and in the conservative mind a government bureaucrat is like the worst thing. You can be it's the right where these the absolute scum of the earth is a government bureaucrat at this time, particularly Trump era version. The republican Party to have a badge and a gun is the best thing you can be read

and so the comes to be this very sharp divine- you saw that like tromp was bragging that he did something mucking around to get it so that the coastguard, which is Indeed such ass was classic. I'd is somehow being part of the military for the purposes of this shut down. So our coastguard heroes would keep getting pay it. Whereas, like under lame Obama's interpretation, the Org charge, they would not be getting paid and so this is all about who is valued and who is not valued rather than whose work is essential range Work is essential, I think problem comes in because conservative somewhat misunderstand what actually happens in the shutter, On that, I think it never mind the shuttle out of a civilian regulatory agency that they don't approve of is like the purge right right.

So it's like the EPA. We Democrats, I can do whatever I want, but is actually the opposite of that right. There are things that you need to get a permit to do. And now that the EPA is closed, you can't get that right so like that's the real issue. It's not a free for all its like the opposite of a free for all, and if you ever thought about like the weekend when government agencies close all the time, it's not anarchy, and the weak, and it's just you can't do certain things like you can't get your driver's license and that's what it's like all the time and it's a clothing were for a couple of days, nobody's gonna care right, but at a certain point, the fact that nobody can do a new source review process for opening a factory is get me like a real problem. We would like to have some factories open at some point in the United States is going to come to be that people can't do initial public offerings.

I could beat the acc for whatever reason like has some cash lying around under the mattress or something and is not shut down yet, but they will be here soon and again its knowledge securities laws were peeled when he s he see, runs out of money. They just can't do the things that their support to do and whether you, like the rules, are not what you really don't want is a situation which no one can comply right. In the other obvious example of this and one that even you know, I think that the current adoration of the Republican Party cures a little bit less about the regularity of government functioning for the purpose. of market protection, then previous innovations have so. I would not in fact surprised if complaints about new source reviews we're not being the sympathetic ears in the executive branch of the top levels that they might have under the George W Bush or in regulating the hypothetically broken administration. Or even the Gingrich Congress, but

legacy of unified republican government that ended in the period that ended as of yesterday Thursday. The third was that they pass this major tasks that was supposed to give people more money back in on their tax refunds, you can feel it extra turned with the IRS right now as long the federal government to shut down you're, not getting your tax refund and so again As we talk not just about early January, were no one files, their tax returns. Unless they're, I don't, there I'll be good financial reasons for certain people to do it, but far as I and normal person, I'm concerned. If you are filing your tax return, this early, you are a weirdo bite as the shutdown continues, if it he used to go on, and we start talking out periods where people would be reasonably expecting to get some money back from the federal government under this, you know new GNP tax plan and that's not happening yet. That's that's kind of the problem when you think of tax

form is a good thing, but the people who are doing the tax reform on the ground is being evil government bureaucrats. I think it's time for for a quick break in and we'll be back. It feels like don't have enough hours in the day to get everything done. Might because you're missing out on three where those three hours cup I we fell into a deep dark abyss that opens up on switch between work. Those three hours to all the productive time we miss out on thanks to at home, distractions, disorganization fatigue. It's no wonder the days future work should work with clear up. It does look up as a flexible productivity platform, the wings or you work at one place. That's all you chats apps docks and ass one centralized place like mission control companies like Goober Google use click up to make today is more productive, managed projects, people and goals more effectively, but for tee of all sizes industries cook up to pleasingly.

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among the stressing its unbiased feedback. You be pretty surprise when you can gain for it see if it's for you, the weeds, sponsored by better help and listeners get ten percent off the first month, better help dot com such weeds, that's, b, e t, t e r, H, e, o p dot com, slash weeds. I think something that's also interesting to get into is the idea of owning a shut down and will have that works politically, and I think you ve seen that a little bit, because people

numerous up, but when Trot met with Nancy Policy and truck Schumacher about the shut down trumped said repeatedly, you know our own the shut down. This is my shut down. I and I just keep in imagining him just rap leather yelling at my shut down mine by now. It's not it's. It's not the Democrat shut down at someone else's shut down, and I think it's interesting because I think that there's been you'd brought this upload, but with New Gingrich Nuke Gingrich helped to shut down the government after the Republican Revolution of night to ninety four. It was part of this entire idea, which was to prove that in this sense, the federal government is one not that necessary and two can be bent to the will of the speaker or the political figure who is

willing to do this, because I think that he hit his Gingrich's ultimate Calculus- was that the federal government doesn't matter as much as or like funding. The federal government doesn't matter as much as creating this moment, where I can make this giant statement by doing this and by bringing Bill Clinton back to the bargaining table. But I think that, with this particular shut down now you have Nancy Lucy, who is based at pretty much just as willing To let the government stay shut down over the issue of Wall Funding and it's an interesting thing about how both sides kind of want to own the shut down, but they neither side wants fully ownership, I think it frankly from this position. Policy is in a slightly stronger strategic position, at least right now: brass pillows, had the advantage of like.

already, the House of Representatives under Nancy Policy, as speaker, has passed a continuing resolution funding in the rest of the parts of the government that are shut down, and Furthermore, they passed the version that the Republican led Senate passed back in December of last year, so like the You have a very compelling political argument for the people who care about which party owns shot down, which is a very DC thing, right now to care about right and of when shutdowns matter to the general public is a political matter, is like dreamily undefined. As far as I can tell you that there are a lot of people, it's interesting people like oh, this could be a potential issue. I saw something like this could be an issue and twenty twenty, unlike buddy, if you think a government shutdowns gonna be an issue and a presidential election held a year from now wow, I I admire you- and I absolutely remember when everyone was talking in in full of twenty thirteen about how it would be an issue in the mid terms that were less than a year earlier, barely a year away, and instead we all talk about a bola yeah

those that yeah it's so the people right now who care a lot about the question of who owns the shutdown are also people who are very susceptible to hypocrisy, arguments, row of Nancy policy can come back and say: yes, we have. Ass did well to keep the government open, the same, build the Republicans. You note some Republicans passed, not, ago. It's their fault for not passing that same bill again. That seems to me that it closes that argument down pretty quickly has also the problem where the Trump White This is not consistent and what actually wants like make pencil the Chuck Sumer last week said. Okay, we don't really that we're gonna get five billion, why don't you give us two point? Six billion and Apparently, in the recent meeting with the White House and congressional leaders this week, is actually cut mad at shimmer inside widen, you ever responded that offer an shimmer turn to trumpet. What will, because the president told me that he wouldn't accept any less than five

point six billion and Trump smiled and nodded like. There is a problem here. If the vice president is going out freelancing and saying we are going to give you fifty percent of what we are going to accept. Fifty percent of what we originally asked for there is a reasonable expectation that the president does not in fact support whence you know we should talk about. I think in who owns the shut down? The key thing is actually what are we negotiating about here at all right I would say, the way policymaking works is that if Donald Trump wants some amount of money for borders, secure and if Donald Trump wants some amount of that border security money to be characterized as a wall, these are things that a present of the United States should be able to obtain right. The way that you obtain things I did you say this is an important priority to me and in exchange I would like to know what is an important point.

ready to you, and we will reach some kind of an accommodation and The dialogue has, over the past two years, continually gone off in that direction from time to time So if we assume that, ultimately, that's the resolution of this that they could go. Many different ways right Democrats could make a big concession to Trump, like TAT three billion dollars, and we definitely call it a wall and in exchange they get something big or they can make us. Small concession to trump. Like two point, five billion dollars and from can say it's a wall, but we will deny its wall and initiatives against allowing small, but either way, if we're going bar again, then we can just reopen the government right. because we can see what the governments can be open and then we're gonna have a bargaining process about how much I'll just from Gatt and what to Democrats get an exchange with from his tried to postulate, which is ah right, is he gave up the twenty billion dollars that they say they need for the war

well he's not he's not insisting on all that money and they need to. He put the twenty billion dollars aside and he came up with this five billion dollars. Ocean, but instead of saying I will give you something in exchange for twenty billion. He said I will accept five billion. But in exchange I want to give you nothing and that's why we're in the shut, rather give it a technical sense. The shutdown is not about the wall. It's about its position being that he should get the wall for nothing and that's. Why just till should be literal like that's why there is a shut down if we were talking about what are we getting then the government could be. Ben and we could be bargaining and that's why there's something gets dicey Every time republicans start talking about anything If anything is on the table, then it's like the shut down

self becomes a little bit superfluous, but then the problem with putting everything on the table is a trump has been such a inconsistent negotiating partner over the year stride, so like tromp was saying the other day that we were gonna have a wall for Doc ideal and it was fine, but then the court's ruined and I I believe that, as the key knows that I definitely would like to reiterate some chronology from a year ago, because I understand that a lot of things have happened in the last year, but I'm seeing this weird alternate take on the first two months of twenty eighteen that I would like to nip in the bud. In the first week of twenty eighteen, a federal court stopped the Trump administrations effort to shut down Vidocq programme by stopping to make new. granting renewals for people who are already protected by Dhaka, meaning they couldn't that they were nominally protected.

Deportation and had work permits what's happening. While Congress was saying. Oh, we have six months. We have to deal with the stock issue. The government shut down that happen. Over like a week in January happened after that court. Really, there was still a feeling of urgency, among at least you know. Democrats that is needed to happen Republic enough reply. Lookin agreed with them that it was a good idea that there was some pressure on which Mcconnell to deal Mitch. Mcconnell, then reopen the government said. Ah, I didn't promise you a bill. I promised you a debate. Democrats. Kind of got, played and then there was a very truncated, very frantic, debate over the course of a week in February that, did with a bunch of bills getting voted on, and none of them passing, but the bill that came close to passing being the one at the White House hated the most because it didn't do enough to stop chain migration, our family, based in order to limit family based migration and the building

supported most vociferously like failing by reverse closer folk, basically getting fewer than regular than forty votes in the Senate. What happened, was that there was a reduced amount if there was a reduced amount of urgency kind of once. The governor got reopened and the parameters of Mcconnell Steel, as he degree to it, became clear v I yeah that maybe it wasn't that urgent to make a deal because of this court. Intervention. Storage, to take hold, but it was not an immediate. Oh there's been a court ruling. We can back off on this. It was oh, it's good, really hard to make a deal, partly because tromp administration doesn't isn't consistent about what the president will give us a cover for voting on, because immigration is a very difficult issue, Republicans in particular to take votes on if they don't know that there's gonna be political cover from the way, but also because I think a lot of people who cover politics have been allowed on clear on this is

the meaning of a White House Dhaka concession? Could be various different thing, swayed so view was once upon a time the dreamer right and the dream act would have created a path to citizenship, for a bunch of people was I want. Where was one point six million people have various directions. Had various estimates be eloquently it, so he was that it was a big. There was a lot of people and it was like a full on. You know too, to use the word amnesty for these people who were gonna, get visas and work permits there become american citizens, and then what They were citizens, they we're gonna, have like the rights of all american citizens that do not pat, broke. Obama do not have the ability to conjure up that policy out right. So would he put too

other was deferred action for childhood rivals, which was a programme that you were allowed to apply for that gave you I don't know it was like a physical card, but, like licence to not be deported work? Permit your guide, but Doc was that nearly as good as dream act status What does he want? Something was revoke of right. Did the president had cobbled together, but also that we have no power to citizenship relate? Not only is there no have to citizenship, but it's not even full legal status, which is something that got like the difference between legal presence and legal status for the basis of a lot of litigation. During the time when Dhaka was in full effect but one of the conclusions of the implications of that is that there is literally no way the Congress can step in and extend the dock programme as it where these are so so there was thing, and then it was just gonna kind of persist, but then Donald Trump became president, so you could take it away, and

not everyone who was eligible for Dhaka, actually apply. Foreign got darker in part, because people Stone always fill our government forms in time, but also an park as it was asserted, dicey, move it's like. Do you actually want to go on a register as here I am official undocumented person with a vulnerable depredation protections, Lindsey, Graham and Jeff flake what they were doing deal making from the world look inside. They were making a very generous sort of dream offer to Democrats on this score. There was good get Dockers observes can get dreamers saying it was much better than duck right. It was gonna apply to a much broader universe. People than the people are actually in the dock programme. It was going to give them real legal status, a real path to citizenship, some kind of protection for their parents, as well as other less sort of good, but he was like a good team.

was like a good deal like. If you were a dreamer, you would really want that law to pass Democrats were incentivize to make me in full concessions in exchange for a while in just a kind of like grudging. Oh you get it you get to keep your dhaka. It was It was better than that. It was like a good nice deal. Republicans, since the collapse of those talks have often so to put on the table. Maybe we'll have on a two year extension and that's not such a great deal? Everybody knows that sort of taking sympathetic dreamers, unlike slapping handcuffs on them and sending them out of the country, is not a great Kennicott luck for immigration enforcement, like there's a reason that, when Christian Nielsen talks about how immigration Foresman is great, she talks about other murderers, their deporting not like random college students.

So to all for Democrats, we are going to prevent ourselves from doing something politically toxic for a limited period of time and in exchange are going to give us a billion many billions of dollars. That's not such a good deal right, so in terms of the prospects for deal making like it, really matters specifically, what is the White House willing to do and they need to be like really clear in a really detailed policy kind away. That Donald Trump is just not personally, and these is tweets and remarks he made about Dhaka dreamers over the years. There not only includes and with each other through psych they're, not granular, on the relevant level, about legal status, about pats citizenship, about scope of the programme about the fate of your parents, I'm bravery.

a minute and we'll get just eat. It makes a huge difference to Democrats between is this Republicans are like putting a gun to our head or our Republicans, making us an offer right at the end briefing the questions like what happens to dreamers has, as I think always been its it's not quite. Is it it's a level bringing lately the frankly congresses not gotten into consistently, so it not to real at a gate, things that were like details of past offers, but just had to put up in that. But the thing about Donald Trump Communication on this is that it appears to be the case that on old tromp believes the Democrats should be giving him the wall for nothing because he campaigned on the wall and he was elected president and one He has been in a position where he is trying to quote unquote, negotiate with Democrats you started demanding other things. I have gone through. This litany on the way before- and I don't have the breath- support to do it in one breath today, but the idea

For example, the idea that Donald Trump is going to agree to a wall for doc ideal and never get distracted by the prospect of well. We also have to limit chain migration or well. We also have to cut the court unquote loopholes out of the asylum system like we do have the evidence that he has either the message, discipline or the policy inclination to do that. So it's not not even clear what a good faith negotiation on these issues looks like they doesn't stop with literally trump doing what he did on like this step, act and saying there is this bill I am indorsing this bill. The problem is that that requires legislators to write a bill and it doesn't appear that legislators have any desire to write a bill if they don't know what the president's going to support its, it is a very it's a bad idea, forgetting anything done. That's going to be makes the kind of temporary solutions tempting because, especially if you your say, Nancy Pelosi and you're being offered a tour

rear extension of you know, protections for Docker recipients by whatever means- and you think that you have really good shot of beating the president in November two thousand and twenty. Maybe you take that deal, because if you don't take that deal, the Supreme Court is probably going to take up Daca toward the end of this session spring two thousand and nineteen. Given the current makeup of the supreme or it is not super likely that they are going to side against the Trump administration. On the issue of whether the Executive Board, needed to follow the administrative procedures. Act in ending approach that it did not follow the administrative procedures act in getting a hum is kind of one of the ways you can look at bill. The doktor litigation, and so that the calculus, might look a little bit different. You know four, you right now, then it would in a world where a supreme Court wasn't going to end that, especially because, like on the flip side,

five billion dollars like a hundred and fifty miles of wall, and if it's not a wallets Pollard, you know, if you can call it a board fence and just deny that the other side should be calling it a wall whatever. That does mean that if that is the path of least resistance- and I kind of I feel like it might end up being the path of least resistance it too In a situation where Congress doesn't have any incentive, not just keep kind of punting on that right, it creates a situation where Congress, as they do with a lot of things that start up being temporary. It's just easier to keep the berry thing than to build anything permanent out of it and if that is what it ends up, looking like I have something like we have on temporary protected status, which isn't specifically authorized by Congress is broadly authorized by Congress, but which price two trump, the easiest thing to do is just continue. Kicking it down the road, and so you have you know now: a population of people who

The Trump administration is trying to send out of the country after two decades and dont have recourse because they don't have a path to citizenship. As their thing was supposed to be temporary, that's kind of I worry that from a policy standpoint, that is the worst thing that could be the situation that could persist for the longest that is obviously not satisfying to anyone. red, though isn't Nancy Pelosi is inclined to hold a tougher line, one thing that Switzerland is it. For the mid term, this was a Senate focused process, because the partisan sticking point was that Republicans needed Democratic Senate votes pass some and before the mid terms, Democrats had a time of in like all members in states that, from one so These were people, many of whom one election, many of whom lost real action

who had a strong incentive to want a deal. A bipartisan deal to be reached. Rigour, most of its substance right it does it work You have been much better for clear mechanical for there to have been a bipartisan deal now, the most vulnerable Democrats lost. a lot of the Democrats from from states one solidly, not that working. None of them are in cycle and now right There is too Republicans from Clayton States or insight. I believe, no Democrats from Trump States who korean cycle and twenty twenty and all so Democrats have the house, so this is way, House focused process in which the clutch of moderate Senate Democrats, who generically prefer deals, are not relish. And and the overwhelming preponderance of house Democrats who have safe seats and dont care at all,

a lot of relevance, because this is me we will remember this from a million John Vain or in Paul Ryan type things we're like it could have been that twenty or thirty House Republicans wanted to do a deal with Barbara. But the bulk of house Republicans hated the idea of deals with a bomb and identity, like right, like there's, two hundred something House Democrats of whom, maybe thirty or forty have to worry about their elections and the rest of them just have to worry about losing primaries unlike for them best case scenario, would be for no legislation to pass for years right like of any kind of any. And they won't be that unreasonable because they know that life has to go on but like theirs, me strong predisposition inevitable as his office did not agree to things with Donald Trump, especially where

people generally agree that what is happening here is that Trump has started often unreasonable process. Ok, let's, let's take a quick break now. This episode is brought to you by fan door. Football is back and the best bet you can make is downloading the fan: Dual Sports bookshop. It doesn't matter If your new to gambling or an old pro fan duel, something for everyone and as an official sports, partner of the NFL, you know your bet, you're safe, theirs. I've never been a better time to use vandal, because right now, you'll get up, one thousand dollars back. If your first bet doesn't win you even turn a small wager into a big payday with the same game, parlay that just sign up with the problem, Code Spotify to place your first bet risk free on fan. Dual sports book download fan dual today, Twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania, first online, real money wager only refund. She does not withdrawal site credit that expires in fourteen days. Restrictions apply see terms at sports booked

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something I wanna get into from the work that I generally do. Is that hat how this is being presented on the right? If we recall to thousands of years ago, namely like the week of December, twenty first Trump had kind of backed away from the wall. In a sense, it is interesting because that took place around the time of medicines were s, resignation and a lot of people pointing out that two years of republican control of all three branches of the federal government plan, parenthood risk had still been defended and there is executive order banning Bob stocks, which has provided to be way more controversial among gun rights advocates outside of the energy, which is an interesting issue in another

self, but it was interesting. Wind Sarah Zander said press secretary, serious industry that they refer to look at other options for getting border wall money or that Euro in it. When people started talking about slats, that's when you see folks like an culture and rush limber you they took a very transactional perspective on the president, and there is an interesting national review piece about this. It saying like most of trumps basis, not transactional. If they dont get a wall, they will still support him, but for the kind of I've been the term elites, is not exactly remember. For kind of you, I'm sorry, influencers of trumpets, em they very much were they are in this for a specific reason, and for folks like an culture who wrote about how great trunk wise and also wrote that Adios America, but you I reached out to Her- and she said you- I dont- want borders secure

ready I want a wall, I want whatever Israel has that if an you, she read a hope, he's talking about how she recognises that she believes Trump, as this is a gutless sociopath, and that if he without a border wall, his presence will be a joke present. see who's, scam, the american people, and so it is interesting. Yelled vomit, only bad Bob Corker Accurate, pointed out that you do. We have to talk, show talk, radio show host, who have basically influence the president. Isn't that is that tyranny, and it is interesting that on the right tat you saw this. I did like if Linsey Grand brought this up like if there is no border. While this presidency is over and it's been a fascinating issue, because immediately Linsey Graham said that, if Republicans nominate Trump wound is right in reserve because it raises it out, if he does, he says a lot of things, but I think the what

you saying if you take what he says as a as messaging, that he's attempting to get to Trump Viet trumps favorite medium, which is television, the idea but we are talking about like YO the border wall. I think it came up that oh it was. It was a metaphor or something or a born a while. It's you know like the day before way sixteen election Peter the Old gave us Bitch NBC, where he said when trot supporters hear him talking about the wall. There are not thinking of something like the great wall of China. They see as a matter, therefore, we need to enforce the laws we have their taking it seriously, not literally so a turn out for many people. They were taking it seriously and literally, and yet we ve talked about they're talking about slats rain, rosemary things. There are different levels of Europe where they get like. I am. I realized a couple of weeks ago that this

in a normal presidency. We would be talking a lot about the dynamic that has come up where Donald Trump in early twenty seventeen once he actually became president, had a pretty clear evolution in thinking about what he was going actually push for on the wall led by people like John Kelly, who, actually you know, New some things and was running the Department of Homeland Security at the time led by close allies at his like the head of the National Border Patrol Council, which is the Border patrol union he lit, and to the fact that actual border patrol agents do not like opaque, concrete walls, because they can't see what coming at them. This is where a lot of people who didn't really understand it started it is like oh drums, talking about an invisible wallace in hand while and what he was we talked about work, the exact in a balance or what he calls deal slats. There are now being you know that he's now promote saying that the Department of Homeland Security, that's what they want to build with the five billion dollars, but he didn't

hey conservatives in his base, along on that journey that he appeared to and his his way has appeared to assume that whatever I'm called a wall. His base would accept as a walk and and their users who off of the base, that probably will rise, because that is the prophet like the border wall is just a part of it for them, but for the transaction all section of the Trump base. When he talked about the wall, where in the way he talked about the one, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen they want whatever that was- and this is, I know that it seems we're just be talking about people ankle to rush limber, but these are voices that have some degree if nuts way within the conserved movement. They represent a faction of the conservative movement, whom Trump thinks about and cares about. Re gets really wild because,

also listens to the and connect to the National Border Patrol Council a great deal in on Thursday. He brought them out for a walk a brief brought leaders of that union out for a very brief press conference in which they, actually said we are, you know we understand that it did we're not getting our each right away and we're ok with that, because it so important that we have a physical barriers they of law. Taken the position that, when they save physical barriers, they emphatically do not mean a concrete wall and the world in which that is very close interest relationship ship, the president has and one in which there appear to be a lot of policy influence getting exerted on him. It's it's. The kind of split, not just within the Trump coalition, but Between people who can usually expect to have trumps ear, that is very interesting. I would be very interesting to see play out if Donald Trump weren't chronically afflicted with the tendency to agree

whoever has talked to him, but this is also important for Democrats, mentality rate, because if you can eat revisionist Hitler in, if trumpets Where campaigning by saying what I We'd like to see is a significant fiscal commitment to constructing these sorts of barriers and were authorized, the secure fence act at an accelerated pace Democrat. That would not have heaped derision on right. They might have said. I disagree with that, but probably wouldn't have commented on it at all. To be honest because trumps bunch of stuff when he was campaigning. Much of the things from said when he was campaigning was really striking and they say with that, I would like to see an increased pace of construction of the kinds of barriers already authorized by the Scare fence act is not a particularly striking thing to say instead, what Trump said was it. He wanted a big beautiful wall that

did analogies specifically to the great wall of China, did, he said would be concrete that he described at various points being twenty or thirty feet. I therefore agree that we get taller at any given moment did so. There was a striking claim that attracted discussion. Much of the discussion of that from critics centred on the info his ability and undesirable. Eighty of doing their view was that Donald Trump was being done about this. Right and they then became a political contestation in which tromp was saying, no! No. No, these weak kneed elites were refusing to do this obviously feasible thing, because they secretly preferred open borders. And his critics were saying. This asshole is lying to you and is proposing something that cannot be done. What Trump has decided is that tromp was wrong completely in all respects, and then everything his critics said about him was true and he said

this early ride like when he shifted, it's not gonna, be a walls can besides, we don't need to do the whole border, because some of it is mountains. Bob I write so like everything from said about the watering. The campaign was a lie: everybody who made fun of him as a lion and income poop was correct. The position, John Kelly is that tromp was lying, nincompoop the the border patrol councils, that tromp was alarming, kaboom right and if tromp was willing to humiliate and a base himself by up knowledge rising profusely for having proposed this. Damn thing for re when people up about it for Learning american politics on its head, overseeing the didn't work for not even checking with the Border Patrol Council right if he was willing to do all of that. I'm sure he could get his stupid. Twenty billion dollar. Sweat like so just heard frustration. People like all it's like it's just symbolic, it's just semantics, but like it's, my because its core proposition right, the central question mark in politics for the previous three years has been

is Donald Trump, a scam artist who lie these two people for personal profit or is Donald Trump, the only man you can trust to save you from Globalist Lee and again it is not a small question of semantics. It is a fundamental question in american politics and like four tromp to damage is a scam artist, and my That is what is going on here. That's why it's been downgraded to slats! That's why we need seven hundred miles rather than two thousand whatever else, and it is with good reason that Democrats do want to let him of his cake and eat it too. On this point, right that you're lying now that many on the right

here too, we have made the calculation that both things can be true. He can be a lying scam artist, but maybe that's what we need in order to get the wall that we don't really get which actually starts reminded me of lake. It start something like one of those. I really weird like the end of a policy scheme like oh yeah. If I give him another ten thousand dollars, then our final, I get my money back because that's but, but I know he's lying to me, but you won't. Let me this time while been like that Border Patrol Council getaway near various people in this makes who, like, I think, have a reasonable prospect of getting what it is that they want out of this. I m it's worth noting that the Border Control Council nominated endorsed Trump in the primary in March. Twenty sixteen, which absolutely before there was any public or even leave indication that from was saying: ok, we don't actually need a concrete wall against along the whole border like they were, you're playing the long game and assuming that they could influence trumped you

to a more reasonable interpretation of what a border barrier looked like, or they assumed that be symbolic value of the wall, not for domestic political audiences. internationally, the symbol of we are a nation that enforces our borders was worth the inconvenience of the concrete I dont know which one of those it is I do think it's worth talking about like the semi of the wall as both domestic and international thing, because I think a lot of the messaging shifts between the two frankly- and I think the Democrats have as we know the Democrats aren't coming out in saying we are denying Donald Trump the Wall, because it's important to the question of whether Donald Trump will keep its promises and we think Donald Trump is a scam its use, try to fleece you but they're saying is the wall sends the wrong message to the rest of the world, world that we are not a welcoming country and that message is wrong- it is anathema to

american values and we want to be the kind of country that doesn't want to build a wall. I don't know that that gets bridged easy in a world where you know your building, but fencing and then Donald Trump is calling it a wall on the flip side, even if Trump apologized in the weird hypothetical we're Donald Trump apologized, I dont know that you lose, that you don't have progressives saying I dont care that Donald Trump said he was. wrong about things. It still sending the wrong message in the more the trump expands his idea of what he can claim. Victory on the last Democrats can accept in that ridiculous it creates. It means that there is not any moving toward consensus because any expense. What the wall means on one side has to contract on the other side yet way, but this is I mean I agree. I obviously there has been a counter mobilization against

order, hardening that was not previously present in America How did you see that nobody was pushing back against it, but there was any mass mainstream phenomenon in american liberal politics. There was a kind of niece issue from border area. You know, activists groups and, and maybe some Latinos in Chicago area? You know we're like aware of this situation, but like from by making such a big deal about. This has created a alike anti walling ideology that was not previously there. I think, though, that that would go away in the context of a bargain Why did I mean it's bigs it very hard for Democrats just give in to Trump but like if you say we're making a deal, that is helping people in some kind of way. You know you can, can come away from it, but, like yes, Tromp has employed a series of tactics that

well designed to obtaining a congressional appropriation for offences. You don't even like to the external policy goal here, is to get five billion dollars worth of vertical steel Ballard constructed. This is now a great way to go about right. If from it. This negotiation sang not even my version of this but you're saying, like you know, I, like I went For this of my people- and they say some had offences, fine and we don't really need lol, but we do need five billion dollars like I think you could have gotten this done right, but, like the insistence that the fences the wall require The opponents of the wall to oppose the fence and we can all see that that's pointless on some level but like it it for me actually very close to like the centre of what were disputing anymore. politics as they use it so many times during, like trumps vision of deal

you're. So right, because his idea of a of deal is that you humiliate your opponent. But that makes it much more difficult to make the deal right. It is a lot easier to make a deal when everybody gets to proclaim themselves a winner, then, when you insist that you're going to dance on their great right and it's very much not designed for dealing with the same people over and over again, like it's great for real estate, where you're picking one of many contractors at any given time. But when you're dealing with Chuck Nancy worried the exact same people you dealt with in you know, a year ago and Chuck Sumer remembers perfectly well that you promised him twenty five billion dollars for legalization for the dreamers and then John Kelly called you up afterwards and said actually that deal Gonna fly like you, can't just

side that you're going to go to some other democratic setup. Minority leaders, like those things don't exist in hindsight, Trump relay, should have just started. We want bothered chant back and twenty fifteen. We would have avoided this entire problem. I would also love for someone to explain to me why steel slats sound tougher than dollars like I. I gather that Donald Trump really loves the free. Steel slats, but it sounds much flimsy or to me than dollars, which are a little technical, but it's like you know it like something that is upright and sturdy and won't fall over at the drop of a hat. Heavy steel is inherently tough and also to fighting. Slats is really fun. Just just right. are we to make announcements and that now steel, slats isn't literate of steel is inherently tough. I think that a lot of people actually do not know what the word bower they mean knows, but that's what makes it sound technical and fancy also aid

The elaboration is probably wives like it so much. You know my go at around my gosh for deliberation is the worst wow. That's the hottest take of its I've heard. Yet, ok! Well, I think you know we ve been going on for a while and we could they alliteration all day, so we we better wrap it up. Put does so. You know thanks Jane and era, for common antagonists over I'm guessing that the government will probably still be shut down next week, so that we can go further into the weeds of whatever may or may not be on the table and negotiation anyone who is involved and shut down negotiations who, as a weeds listener, be incentivize not to deal because they want to hear us discuss this more. I promise you. We will find another opportunity to weeds if I dont, let us getting, you re all right all right, and we definitely want to thank our producer. Jeffrey Guild, who is this is his first weeds episode and I think I think, is going to be. it's gonna, be amazing, but any flaws just blame him for

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