Dara, Jane, and Matt on the global crackdown on refugees. This episode was recorded in front of a live audience at the historic 6th and I synagogue in Washington, D.C.
Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox
Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica
Jane Coaston (@cjane87), Senior politics reporter, Vox
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They will not, for you a show that was recorded, live in Washington DC at the historic six, and I synagogue at this actually happened back last Wednesday seriously. Banning night of impeachment vote, Donald Trump, as so listen for a moment of cheering and enthusiasm from the crowd. But the discussion is not about that. It's about refugees and immigration policy have really interesting, really important stuff. I think you could try
hello welcomes another episode of the weed some a box media podcast network. I met your glaciers are joined by Jane Coastal and pro public as derelict
and we are really excited to be lived tonight out from the six- and I said- oh god, right here in Washington DC,
one in which everybody a merry.
Smith Happy Hanukkah bless id impeachment day, although I have to say it's it's
king, really that people who profess to be interested in politics would be here instead of trying to weigh the argument,
some, even if in the debate I think a lot of people have open minds are finding that all seven Nunez is going to change a lotta minds. Exactly gathers big is fixed,
so you know I would. I would go so far as to say that these are going to be the only interested people in washing.
in saying I know right? Yes, indigenous boy, that's that's the joke!
I'm sorry, I'm I'm jewish myself, but my understanding of the Spirit of the Christmas season is that it's all about trying to exclude people in need
and, if not help out, which is why we are going to talk about the Trump Administrations Refugee policy, which very much captures that
it's. It's a super, no room at the end refugee follows that, and you know I thought it to start this off in this. This is box. This is our approach and I do see people confused about this all the time and are having Derek and can help explain like literally what is a refugee, and how is that different from that?
both have been arriving at the southern border and in claiming asylum, because that's been in the news, a lot, but is actually not the same thing. So I do have to ask this because I have six than I and am also an idiot and didn't bring mine. Does anybody have a spare keeper? Ok
that's fine, I'll, just spiritually have my hand over my head for this whole thing. So there's the
Look, we all meaning! There's there's a colloquial slash like people who are interested in these issues and debate them tend to make a distinction between refugee and migrant right. The ideas like oh migrant implies that someone is vulgar.
Yeah. I guess so
you know you imply that a migrant someone who's voluntarily like going from one place to another. The implication is that it's you know you often here is economic migrants, so
it's, you know it's usually seen as a kind of oats you use
to do this and therefore the state can do whatever it wants to block you, because it's not you know what
but you can't do whatever you want just because you feel like picking up and moving to another country, for
on the other hand, has colloquial understanding like you're being forced to leave now. This is in practice a little bit. Tricky
generally really hard to know a
are some wine, you know, is one hundred percent being for
believer whether they didn't have like a little bit of agency in the matter. It's hard to know when someone is in such desperate straits that it turns
forced migration. There is also the kind of second layer which is that risk
he is also in the. U S, context a very specific policy terms and refers to people who were
already selected to come to the? U S while they were abroad and were brought here and prickly placed with
circular organizations to help them starting new life in the. U S where
as asylum in the Eu S context is for people who come here either as an author
migrants or they like, come here on visas, are then present themselves and say I am afraid
returned to my home country. I would like to stay those needed. That's a separate because it happens lake in the. U S should we keep? You are not a separate policy process, but in the kind of global
standing once you're found to deserve asylum. You're also
You know that also end of retroactively means. Oh, you must have been a refugee which makes things
a little bit tricky to talk about, because you can in practice the most accurate term for somebody who's like coming here from Guatemala is asylum.
Seeker because they haven't you been granted asylum and so calling them. Refugee is kind of makes an assumption about the ultimate success of that also it implies different policy process, but one we're talking in the global context about lake. You know the global refugee crisis or the global displacement crisis are. What have you
All of those distinctions start to seem a little bit facile because we're talking about groups of people with large
the people who are moving from one place to another refugee policy in the United.
Stay right is about the kind of external resettle wetsuit, that's based on people who are living in a refugee camp, typically somewhat they
fled one country and they are now in a different country which is not the United States and they have gone through a pie,
and the United States has over the years it takes in people, not people who flee to the United States, but people who have left their homeland there, someplace else and the United States takes in a certain number of people like that and gives them a permanent home here and there
different from Cubans. Our Haitians fleeing on boats are guatemalan, showing up added at the southern border. It's it's
my fear more kind of process where there is very worrying and
when we can act as a permanent rap, its inner did the term used globally as third country resettlement, which is very helpful because often
most of which are those that yes, that's like most people who are refugees right now are being held in. You know, semi indefinite, like can
situations where there are not fully regular eyes. They don't necessarily have work rights where they are, but they are not. The hope is that ultimately, they'll find it safe to go back to their home countries. Bite.
That takes a very long time to do, and often you'll have you, people who eat you and Kristen. Have you heard just asleep for like decades, so the idea of the third country is, you are being selected to move there for good. You know the US will give you like it. Will it will teach you English? It will help you find a job that will help you find housing. It will get you on your feet.
Because the idea is that you are not going to be able to go back home ever, and so therefore, you deserve like a second chance at a new life
we see the beginnings of this process following the Second World WAR, public people who literally can never return to from whence they came, and it's interesting as something that Matt brought up
beforehand is that this is not a strictly in american problem. If we ve talking about the global refugee crisis, we're talking about a global issue, this is something that's happening in refugee camps in Kenya. Today. This is something that's happening, a YO, a kind of across the Global South and around the world.
Tromp. Is writing a very specific wave and doing so in a very specific way with regard to third third country resettlement and how this issue is handled? The other thing- that's that's worth noting about like the historical context here, is that it's not it's. It's both their response to what
Do we do with these particular people who are now displaced? It's also a guilty responds to the fact that Jews attempt
to escape Nazi Germany and were turned away and be none of that kind of survive.
guilt by proxy that when our own governments felt led them to sail
We know exactly what persecution looks like. It looks like that thing that happened just now, and so,
be legal categories for who counts as a refugee assumed that there,
going to be a government that is persecuting you based on one particular category, like your race or your religion or your nationality, and as the twentieth century became
when I first you both had groups that were actually governments, but that might have as much power over someone's life as if they were. The government, like it transnational gangs,
Apple and you had we forms of persecution that didn't
verily map aren't like something clearly delineated and the refugee convention. So as the fact of why people might be fleeing kind of drifted away from the black letter law of the nineteen fifty one refugee convention and in the EU,
people tried to a kind of create, more and more jurisprudence on particular social group, which is the elastic clause of the refuge,
convention and therefore needed a
more you now. Ok, does this counter? Not it's it's that has created the kind of policy opportunity into which Trump and a bunch of other countries have become, which is well. These people aren't real refugees. We know what real refugees
like we have all the luck in the world for real refugees. This is not the issue and therefore we get to do what we want, but but I mean so this too, to draw back to the distinction right. There's
I was in addressing to to think about, like what is termed talk about a lot worse is: where do we see action that he doesn't talk about a lot we heard from from a lot of talk about the southern border right in various different contacts, both in the context of unauthorized migration for Mexico and then in the context of asylum seekers who are coming from the northern triangle?
in this. You no question of border control right is: are we supervising what is happening and are they somehow? They quote unquote sending bad people, but then you have refugee resettlement right which is not about and where I don't recall at least trouble making a lot of public statements on this
Subject we totally dead in twenty fifteen when the kind of when the syrian refugee crisis really came into relief for a lot of people, because the image of island cruelty that the five year old, who was pictured after he drowned that wave of support was followed by a backlash led by then
Did it Donald Trump who routinely accuse syrian refugees of being a Trojan horse? If you remember envious, skittles image, shared yeah, Donald Trump, yelling years, this entire idea, and when we see that a little bit it kind of its videos like you're, we know what real refugees look like, but these refugees are Trojan horses for terrorism. Irrational thing it's interesting because again, this is a global issue at its the same issue that you're seeing right
The parties, like hd in Germany, making the same argument
you're saying that no they're, not their economic migrants. It's not bad.
Whatever their dealing with, and you see the forms of persecution again
I pointed out. These are specific, put forms of persecuting of persecution. If you are being threatened with death by a gang, that's not the guatemalan government doing that, but it is in a sense in
drug governmental entity that perhaps is stronger than that got. What? What is the change the trumpets made here? Was
I mean actually only going to go back to town, yet it's very useful lake, when Trump kind of help that backlash take root. What you ended up seeing was a lot of republican governors, including economic pensive, Indiana saying, actually we we would like to not take any syrian refugees. Please, and thank you and Congress actually in then I think republican. The Republicans had both chambers Congress tried for like a minute to include in a bill that Euro States could refuse any refugees from from a particular country if they wanted to. That is now what from has enshrined into? U s? Policy start like this.
here every year, the president has the powers, one of those things that, because immigration is close to foreign policy, the president has a lot of power in it, and so every year the president has the power to determine how many refugees? The? U S, will we settle for the next year? So when Donald Trump came out with this year's presidential determination,
just like extremely low, and the reason I don't remember. The number is because the U S hasn't even come close to meeting the last two years: caps, so lake, something along the lines of
twenty thousand when it gets atlantean eighteen thousand. But in addition to that, he came out with it
negative order. That said that, now, in order for it,
immunity to resettle refugees which used to just be like. There are a bunch of now
voluntary organizations, many of which are religious groups highest, which is the jewish refugee resettlement. Charity is long established. For example, they have branch offices and, like their branch offices, are settling the migrants with you no support from
local insight government under the new regime, you have to have explicit sign off from both the local government and the state government saying refugees are okay,
ass, witches. You know both a kind of political. Oh, if something back
happens. You get to blame the governor and the mayor who, let it happen,
in a way that you know, for example, Houston is a big refugee resettlement hub there's a lot of anxiety over whether the State of Texas will like actually in a sign, often say: refugees are cool with us. It's actually been support, like a few republican governors have been the governor of Tennessee. You just said:
refugees are fine. Governor of Arizona has done the same thing, so it hasn't happened in exactly the way that the trumpet and administration expected wish. You know, would have been to really further reduce refugee resettlement by reducing the number of play
is that we're both equipped to do it in a loud, but it is now create a partisan issue. Right now know a thing you could do if you are running for governor of Minnesota, you say that you will block refugee recent
because I mean I know you know. Refugees in Minneapolis is a subjective
caution, often on the american right, but it has not
traditionally been selling. The state government actually has already over. So it's a kind of a hypothetical wedge issue. That's now me
real as a topic, but it may also. I mean I think, that the headline conclusion right is the trumpets just cut the the overall numbers
normally when it was under under Obama. It was like about a hundred thousand yet that the cap for the last year of Obama was a hundred thousand and they were and the thing about the cap is it's. Ok, it's not actually it's officially a target. The trumpet ministrations treated it as a cap is also dependent on capacity right, because there is this ludicrously long. You know taking an average of two years vetting process
lot of moving parts like by the time. Your background check is cleared, whether you have your medical check, as you know, that may have expired so end your by definition, taking people from less unstable parts of the world so
if, for example, Syria flares up and their protests in Iraq, you can't go to Iraq to interview potential syrian refugees, so
it's always been a little bit touching, go as to how many refugees the? U S will actually resettle in any given year. What trumpets done is both cut the cap and by reducing the capacity starting with the actual like refugee resettlement moratorium. That was part of the travel ban when it was finally led to go through its very hard to actually come anywhere close to meeting that cap so like for a couple of years there you know you were having a refugee capitally, forty thousand ITALY, twenty five thousand people actually getting resettled and where those people were resettled from depended on whether it was possible to light clear their background checks
if they were coming from countries that troubled Ministration treated to security rests with difficult, which was kind of another. You know in a jewish inequalities, stadium, personalities and there there is a process known as the Inter agency process, which is kind of a black hole where our future security that Ngos to die.
When he eighteen there was
story from my now colleague, internet or body at riders, which basically said it for a while. There was one person at the FBI whose job was to go through all of the refugee checks, which makes sense if you the FBI, because that's not necessarily the job that you wanna be spending putting people
but it creates a bottleneck for their refugee resettlement process, so that ended. You know the senses
that that's got a little bit better. As lake things inroads, people have figured out the Trump administration, and is the numbers at the end of the process are low enough that it's not you, know a huge jam anyway, but it does mean that, in addition to the explicit lake, Donald Trump has a very robust theory of we shouldn't be helping. We shouldn't be it shouldn't, be
ass to take everyone, and people should be settled closer to where they live, that he will say at any international audience. Given the opportunity there are these kind of small procedural things that mean that even the Trump Administration stated policy may be more generous,
there was actually going to sustain the you. You know, you know Republicans conservative
What's the big boy, what's the issue here like why,
Why are they so so mad about refugees?
I think that I mean this. This relates to a specific breakdown within the conservative movement, because you see a lot of some of because of anti tromp Trump skeptical conservatives of point fifteen. Twenty. Sixteen reacting specifically to this to this idea of YO yo. If you come from a specific, perhaps a religious tradition
bet that values you taking care of refugee is specifically christian refugees because you ve
in a lot of christian organisations christian.
Ngos. Talking about your there are christian refugees. Christian
as a minority religions in Iraq and elsewhere, and this I think it's it's been interesting because you see the same people who are basically kind of making Lee
new anti refugee arguments and then, when it comes to christian refugees, there respect what we didn't mean them well use you did you meant them because you did, but I think it comes from
very specific and again, this is not just an issue within the american right. This is eight general as your kind of the rise of populist nationalism world. Why? This is an issue that is taking place in the EU.
This is an issue taking place in Germany in Hungary in basically anywhere kind of
Australia, Australia, where people want to be put
Watch, they dont want to be put on an island and left to die, but that's what they ve done, but I think that it comes from one, the
idea and you I'll have to go to
the wise sage, Tommy Laren, for this viewpoint,
you know she really speaks to the east of the more the id, but did you that idea like what
here they fleeing. They should go back and figure out things there, but there is an ill. I want to have, like others, like this lengthy conservative tradition here, but no-
you're. One of the challenges within movement conservatism have written about this before is that there are some time is like there's kind of the top level the super egos. So to speak, that
yes, we are relying on the arguments of Burke or perhaps Russell Kirk or perhaps Irving Crystal, but then there is kept this base argument of like we don't trust those p
why are they getting help and we are not getting help, and I think that that something I mean it's not just of
sleep, a conservative thing to be xenophobic. Xenophobia is a bipartisan tradition that crosses all as we ve learned, but I do think that there is a sense of one when refugees stopped. Looking like small children, small white children, perhaps fleeing from Yugoslav, Bore and started looking Lake little
round: kids fleeing from Syria or from war and North Africa, or from YO any other global conflict, specifically global conflicts that maybe we helped in and especially when their became concerned, growing concerns about the alleged link between refugees and terrorism. I say a legit because-
isn't really one but get kind of this idea that a rising raising the boy,
it and clothes.
the walls will keep people safe, but it did there isn't like a grand conservative tradition of this, but there is kind of a grand human tradition of it, I think I'll say, and this kind of pre dates the trumpet moment a little bit though it's definitely part of what's being drawn up is like refugees are different from any other legal immigrant in that they are not selected because of their proximity to or value treaty.
I did states like it's not. You know they are less likely to have immediate job market ready skills than people who
deliberately allowed to come to the United States because they already have a job here. They may not already have immediate family members in the United States, which is the other kind of major avenue veal, which people can come here legally. So there's a certain sense that you know
the flip side of we're letting them because we're expressing an american value because, like we are showing that we are a generous nation, is, but we do actually need that right. So you you ve, had a long kind of it's always been very easy to pick on lake refugees, taking welfare benefits in that kind of thing, because there are exceptions to what are generally extremely strict eligibility requirements for people, because on the assumption that they may not necessarily be able to support themselves, that's not why they were allowed to settle in the United States
they have always been a little bit easy to pick off when it in a globally skeptical immigration- and I mean that's like an important aspect of this
I mean I remember one day I was I was walking on fourteen street. I was like out by by bar pillar.
I saw a guy coming down the other way- and I was I was really sort- are shocked by this, but he's wearing a t, shirt
and it says, veterans before refugees
and it just like you? Didn't it didn't compute in my head that, like there was a strict,
trade off here. Buddy
True, you know. If you know, if you study the literature right, there is a lot of concern in the mass public about the idea that immigrants in general are soaking up. Public benefits
and crowding out benefits for natives and most of the american immigration system is a really built to make that not be the case right. There is a lot of restrictions on immigrants ability to access public benefits. That's clearly a thing that people want. I mean there is increased
well paranoia about this, and then refugees, though, like really do get public benefits spread like is not unlike in the general immigration tastes like. It is not a myth that both public and charitable resources are dedicated specifically to refugees, because the idea of refugees is that these are people who need
and we have decided to help them and to the extent that you have a mentality that, like it may be o K for foreigners to come here to help us, but it is definitely not ok to be helping. Foreigners like refugee policy is all about helping foreigners like that is
the hard core point of it, and you can look, there's there's all these. You know people like immigrants having studies about how there are
fact long term economic benefits of refugee resettlement, and then
by all that, but you still can't get around the fact that, like a person for person basis like a refugee, is not the most economically beneficial kind of migrant like by design, you are picking people who work in conditions of desperate need and who are
Receiving assistance and like people just don't like we can say like that- that's not who we are, but I think you know survey data makes it pretty clear. That is exactly who we are
and who most people in most places are like they do not want the welfare state to help foreigners. I think also it's interesting. They brought a kind of veterans, verses refugees, shirt because that's that's it! That's not
your when there were people fleeing the Khmer Rouge and coming to South Texas. There is a whole conflict between people fleeing.
Yo Cambodia and ended the Vietnam WAR. You literally fighting with the clan clan members, some of whom,
where former Vietnam veterans had been disillusioned by the war, and this resulted in a host of violence. It's actually very interesting,
read about in the book. I bring the war home by Kathleen Blue, whose a genius, but this entire concept of this idea mean I think that that gets something that we're dealing with in our politics. More generally, is this idea
that there is kind of this one. Zero binary system that, like a dollar two, a refugee means no dollars to vet,
and even though that's not at all how any of this works, there is no pie there
no binary system, but I think that that's something- and it can't like this- is something that's pretty common across kind of the developed world to be having issues, especially as the welfare state itself. You want. The welfare state was developed in many countries with the idea that people who look like you would be
fitting from it and when people who don't look like you start benefiting from it, you're like out all know about all that welfare state. Now your new start, seeing people who
kind of like I like Medicare, but like I liked it, when my people,
getting it and then those people started getting it. It's a pretty seems pretty common. Whilst the other thing,
you mentioned this? A little
this earlier in terms of U S. Involvement in a foreign conflict then create refugees and also like in the context of these Vietnam vets. Frankly, members being disillusioned with the word like. That's that's an important component because it gets it kind of the question of who does the warfare state benefit? One of the you know things that is in this would have seemed a lot weirder. If I were saying at five years ago, it's now kind of become commonplace that a large part of lake you know of lake, that many national security hawks may not necessarily believe that, like the trumpet
like may think that the trumpet frustration is doing some immoral things. But like day, the people who are super super super invested in you know the people who were there translators
Iraq and Afghanistan are very concerned about America, not taking hidden people on special immigrant visas, whereas the you know the kind of from intellectual firmament has always been a little more will. We didn't really need to be there to begin work like why you know we shouldn't be involved in foreign wars. That's not are that's not are concerned. We need to be taken care of our own people. First and that's kind of the place where this all
comes to rest. Is the idea that really these are these people should be someone's concern, but they should be someone else's concern, run
Stick Steve sailor. Might my favorite white nationals, intellectual has
He likes. You know he kissed his line. Neo conservatives is there and George W Bush. Is that, like his view, was invade the world, invite the world right and that you know the EU wants to do the opposite of that, like don't create these obligations to translators and vietnamese mountain yards and and all these other things like, we should stay home and they should stay home
and everything is gonna- be fine right, but I got those making. Anyone has another gave way to help people, it's the people who are like culturally, more similar to that like in theirs. I ve gotten plenty of of responses, uplifting oats, it's perfectly fine that we're not taking in asylum seekers because they can just go to other countries that are more similar. Unlike what do you mean by more similar, they speak
Additionally, many of these people speak indigenous languages. There hasn't happened, ok,
I mean there. Aren't there definitely our arguments and lake literally. This is me talking about my red migrant protection protocols, again which I guess was inevitable
but one of the reasons that of the tens of thousands of people, the? U S is forcing us to wait in Mexico for court hearings their sensibly, not sending back people who don't speak Spanish, their own, these sending back people from a spanish speaking countries which can be as far away as late Venezuela or whatever, but there still the logic is you can at least INDIGO
to the mexican labor market. In theory, if you can speak the language, so there is no there's there's something to be said for that, but it does rest on a on an idea of not just geography as a like. Oh, it makes sense that you're going to flee to the next country and then the next
becomes responsible for you, but you have an obligation to select where you're going to flee to based I,
places that aren't so
from your own that those people wouldn't feel ok accepting. But what are we
aye, sir. I have this quasi Jane. I mean in a non caricatured way right. There's always this only something that's up, but like it's
interesting to me like we
have not say
a terrorist attack that was perpetrated by someone who had been admitted to the United States as a refugee right? That's the thing that could happen. I mean p
people do things and then you would imagine a backup threat. Right would ensue from that, and you might not approve. Of that.
class, but you would still say that's what happened right
is this incident. It created a backlash like what what fuel
the backlash here. But what is the thing that conservatives point to that's like this has happened in its its back? Will there doesn't need to be a thing when you have the capability of inventing a thing
like let's keep in mind that lake you we're still in the age of info wars having to settle all last suit with Cuba,
for entirely making up a whole thing about how immigrants brought in by Giovanni the young people did some
terrible because they made it all up because that's without stones does but like, I think also, there is kind of an idea that after some terrorist attacks-
in France and in the United Kingdom and kind of the idea, the idea kind of began that because terrorism cover the lone Wolf profile
and I'm using that term, and I know a lot of terror. Experts are like don't say that term, but I can't think of another good one for it, because there is no
things alone. With a lot of these terrorist groups from ISIS to white nationalist groups, there are connected there's, no such thing really is alone will bring with it
idea would be that you would claim to be a refugee you'd show up
London and then you'd. Do something tat
all in the name of ISIS and then people be scared and it would be bad, and so I think that there are just kind of this idea that a thing shouldn't have to happen that you should be premeditated, and I also think that there is just kind of the general concept, and this gets into a kind of
a basic argument within kind of the posts, illiberal rights, any post, Christian Right,
more on that gene is doing air quotes. Doing anything was pleasing later I'm it's. This is a year in which the happens in the studio, but it's true. I do a lot of airports and gestures, for it is it's a very visual, medium part, but kind of the idea.
A lot of the basic sentiments, unlike we should do. This is based on the concept of
should that, for many people relies on a sense of morality, essence of perhaps religious morality and for some people do not know
within the conservative movement, but within the right, the idea,
religious morality, perhaps from a judeo christian perspective, is backwards and is like now
drowning us in brown people so to speak, and you get this if you go home, if you travel in
the all right and then just into like white nationalism is the entire
idea that this kind of quota quotes?
leave. Morality is the fault here
We were only doing these things because we're nice and we should stop being nice reach. Such a tempting ethic trump has said. Is that you'll need to stop being
nice that we're here that, whereas the country were to night, we gotta be we gotta, be tough you're, not tough. Our like Goldman Sachs, but tough on brown people feel
we talk about the snake gas. Do they have to talk about the snake but
that's a very relevant that basic idea, you can't trust these people and we need to be tough. Some people want to be nice.
but we can't it would be nice to the christian minority groups because you have, they might not be real questions, because if they were real Christians, they would live in Like Idaho, where the real Christians are from
Well yeah, or you know that this slightly walk erosion of that is either
if you're iranian Christian you're still relying on a policy regime that treats you as a citizen of her and which therefore creates more hoops Frida jump through, which is definitely a problem that actual
iranian Christians and christian interest groups in the. U S have pointed out with her effigy environment. The other thing I want to talk to talk about regarding the kind of pointing to the european content.
in the American. When it's like.
There is a certain legitimacy to the argument that you
didn't know who can
in Circa. Twenty fifteen to Europe was a ledge
refugee, because there were so many of them? That's not a refugee flow in the intellect, in the context of U S, refugee resettlement. This is where the refugee asylum thing gets really relevant. Right, like that was an asylum seeker flow, and it was much kind of bigger
still then, what we're talking about at the? U S, border, now, much less than what you know. Column
dealing with in terms of venezuelan refugees much less than what Lebanon,
you're dealing with in terms of syrian refugees, that there is that kind of fear of,
uncontrolled masses which can express itself in a super racist waiver canal,
to be well. You know it's very easy for a wolf to sneak in with a sheep like that is a policy that
in the realm of legitimate policy concerns it's not that
thing is we need to be super super super super additionally sceptical on this particular group of people, because as a group of people, they have demonstrated their trustworthy issues where the slip it, but I think this.
relates to the concern about so called chain migration right that in the Eu S policy,
taxed if you settle even a small number of refugees from a given country or given ethnic right. That opens the door where that becomes a founder population for a larger population of immigrants right. So, even if you don't have a specific concern about Somali Refugee Axe, its allowing any refugees from Somalia creates a population of somali immigrants in your city. In your country,
and if you think, that's bad, which I think Republicans of artistic very clearly they do think it's bad read that the only way to prevent that these do not let any any it right in. That's like part of the shit hole, countries, discourse and, and and other things like that, right that there are their categories of people who we don't want in an individualised assessment of one particular person, isn't even necessarily that. Well, I hate that we have to say shit for countries and discourse.
Feels like like taking lake an absolute pile of shit and putting the nice little silk bo on it and being like we're going to discuss it as discourse, but it has its super robots like it's absolutely be perfect expression of the idea that the fact that you
came from somewhere. That was terrible enough that you had to leave, is Aeroflot
of your lack of human capital, which is the flip, the first sight of what
what we were discussing earlier, like wine, as they say in their home country. Italy. Rex saying this is like this whole crazy littering thing yet firmed up that it's like people who come from countries that are bad places too,
have will it like, in fact, was ring other barrenness right in those
has also noted you you
in the media, about about a back as into it, but like in the
if you're saying that someone has to flee their home country, because it's terrible
Everyone will say in theory that they want their home country to be somewhere. They can go back to live. There are very few people who will say. I have no hope for that near the place that I grew up
ever become somewhere? That will welcome people like me ever again and so
Because of that and this is it
something that in international organizations, make a big deal out of, as well as like national governments, the the
full of allowing refugees to return safely, that our home countries is something that's often held up as like. Ok, that's year that that's plan, everything else is just various plans be and that can be easily
turned into well than the minute it safe. They need to go back
we're already. You know we're seeing pressure on syrian refugees to go home. That's definitely part of the thinking in the kind of question about the syrian ceasefire and
this plan in the. U S is involvement and that the trumpet ministration has ended, temper protected status or tried to.
or a bunch of populations, on the logic that, if they were,
to stay in the? U S, because their countries, where recovering from natural disasters like ten or twenty years ago, it's time for them to go back in that
It comes from the exact same. We didn't select you and peace
probably you didn't, have enough things going for
that we would have wanted to select and therefore you should go back to your shit hole country and make it less wholly question we live.
A lot of noise between the pings, the dings. The emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero on the things that really matter just like. We can train
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call one eight hundred gambler, and with that we should take a turn to our research paper of Europe.
Take us at our own country. We that's, not a shovel
we are really is a shrivelled, so we're literally put into the forgotten Americans. Disagree it s room, it's true, so this
is a National Bureau of Economic Research paper entitled abandoned by car, calls swallowed by opiates. It comes from Gill,
he met cough and Kiehtan Wang and it focuses on the relationship between the coal industry and open way to abuse and
There has been occasionally an argument that a incur a increase
in the mining economy might incur, might lead to a decrease in opiate abuse, and this paper aren't you,
and based on the idea that the opium epidemic as response true in some ways, a
listening economic environment, just court for the paper, research shows that people facing stressful economic and social conditions are more likely to abuse drugs because yeah seems sure, but this paper shows that your party,
because of the specifics of the coal mining industry, especially underground mining, with the room, or
that there are many different forms of coal mining. All of them are very dangerous and especially because of the high injury rate that actually in communities with a new, a coal industry that is doing well,
abuse is higher rates, are they sitting look in coal country? They look sort of community to community and because
because if there's an association between coal country, an opium production and also call country, has been an economic decline,
so that leads some people to say what the economic decline leads. The opium production, but they look at a micro level like in
hounds, where the minds have stayed open, is their less or is there more addiction and they find that there's more addiction, because people have bona fide injury.
Did they d, the process starts people getting proscribed painkillers for serious pain, and it turns out that underground coal mining is a very hazardous occupation that leads to a lot of people getting prescribe powerful paid medication with we bore it, and it's also an industry with increasingly poor safety protocols because of the relationship.
In the coal industry barons and our current administration. That's just aside that well, but this is not actually in the in the scope of this paper right, but I mean it's almost stupid, but like the can
Lucien of this research is that the opium problem is about opium,
pilots radiated. I do feel a little bit bad for these others in and academic marketplace, aware you're more
likely to be rewarded for Super lake. Bordentown
the new findings that undertaking to investigate one
Traditional narrative of the opium crisis they swerved into the other. Traditional narrative of the over crisis, which is a bunch of people, had workplace injuries and got in our got pay.
Killers to recover from their injuries and then got addicted to pain killers and then turn to you now once that became a harder
turned to ST opiates and etc? Like that's not that's
We're saying you know a decade ago,
it's not exactly radical and it's not. It's actually somewhat overstated as the treaty,
three of the EPA crisis Writ large but its clearly what happened in coal country and also the idea
it's, become popular in the last few years of this, of deaths of despair of light.
Overdose, alcoholism and suicide, as kind of be seen,
problem coming for me,
mutual Malays and economically depressed communities is, in some ways a lot less intuitive. Then
yes, people needed opium needs to go back to work and we make
can you do need employed to keep working, but it is useful to like refocus it a little bit,
so that we can at least understand you know in so far as addiction is a difficult public health problem,
did, making prettily no prescription opiates much harder to get actually note. I think that's kind of one of the avenues for future research areas does
This change in an environment where the federal government is super
super super committed to not over prescribing for great cause. That's that's been something. That's happened over the last five years or so in response is that the federal government is now very interested in doctors who prescribes a
A certain number of of per per. There are a lot more restrictions on sending,
hope you AIDS by mail, and so it will be interesting to see where that goes. But I do think the point of like no the positive relationship between cold morning in mind:
an open mortality may simply outweigh the benefits of stable employment, which seems like a pretty straightforward conclusion, but it's one. That seems almost seem surprising at this point
other I mean that's a very hot. Take right, I mean, do you know, there's a guy. We wonder you know in the utilitarian calculus
some of these things, like like wine, stylized back that I know it's true about the economy- is that in a recession the death rate tends to go down, because in the short term you have fewer people employed, which means they dont commute to work in their cars, which means they don't die in car crashes.
And so you could. You could projected out and say that, like what really the best thing we could do is just like trade,
steadily, keep getting
but laid off
I don't think anyone or ever could tell her work,
there's a lot right, but I've been there. That's the other thing right, then. I think the wiser conclusion would be if you don't like auto commuting is very hazardous and we should look is really think we should do about. We embassies things that both improve safety on the road and also maybe reduce the need for commuting travel things like that so by this
How can I mean like it's true,
like one potential finding of this paper. Is that arbitrarily
and down coal mines might not just be good for the environment but like it could save lie because people would
jobless and have their communities destroyed, but not suffer from back pain,
but I dont think I don't think that's a take. I wanna be behind nobody's gonna work right. You know like that. There's this, a real question coal is, is quite bad for the environment and we
need to do something about it, but I just it seems like too clever by half to me that Europe,
convince people in these communities delegates it's actually good for them too, to shut these
jobs down because they will then get
fewer injuries and then not become bogged down painkiller like even if it's true, it's it. It's in it I dont think, is going to do the work that they are looking for here,
Finally, some of the kind of infra left arguments on you know if you, if you had the ability to gear
t, a baseline living standard for people? Would you do it via universal basic income? Or would you do the job guarantee in the people? You know who support the job guarantee tend to say there is something there is in any human need for
purpose and he dignity that comes with having one that we can't just ignore.
or if we're going to be helping everyone to be contributing to feel like contributing member of society that that is important for their well being and then there's
you don't usually see this on. The right specifically mean you see in terms of lake. Didn't
of worth work as a way to do it by treating working with superior alternative to welfare right. But you don't see it in the kind of spiritual people want. This sense
in the same in Leicester, talking about poor communities where its often treated as this is a way of life for these people, it is it
insulting to ask them to be retrained. It is insulting to ask them to like pivot to the green
new deal, because what they have decided gives their life. Meaning is this particular thing,
I think it is very easy to kind of overstay as a method myths, but if you have a dog
when an industry that is bad enough, that you are likely to become addicted to something that could kill you.
Just to retain your job. What stories router
yourself about how important your job must be start to actually mean
why? I think that's kind of something that we don't think about.
When enough, when we assume that people have a very kind of transactional relations,
but there are labour that they can more easily take more easily take our leave the jobs that seem least appeal right there. I think it's been a fascinating thing. As I've been kind of tracking the breakdown of fusion is under the former released
between libertarians conservatives, that's broken down, another living in separate houses and sending each other very mean meet emails. But yet you are sorry to see more of the land
kind of, like efficiency should be the focus its causing breakdowns communities. I'd rather have worse, products then see people out of jobs like these arguments are starting to be made among people like conservatives and then turn of the like, libertarian, leaning economic conservatives there like. What are you talking about answering an interesting breakin you're, starting to see kind of new you in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen or a host of debates about the
very idea that, like ill core countries different, but things are going to see that going wider, your kind of like diners or different mom and pop stores or different. This entitles the concept, and it's it's interesting. Also,
because it kind of reminds me of Lake the Lake Shop, local idea,
movement that a member, no, my mom, that very into back in Cincinnati a very much like you, you we'd. We want to keep these places and business even if they dont do the thing as quickly as I would want them to do, because it means something. It is interesting. How that's become a kind of a Cross Party cross ideological arguments having shop. Local is the central
of that and then keep Ex weird. Yet is the like left version of that keep was, but so
as a tea is literalist. I like this paper, and I always I always kind of one leg refocus. The upward conversation on the baseline question of chronic
pay because, like that, the issue is that
at least as I understand that, like opulent painkillers are not an appropriate treatment for chronic pain, because when you use them as a chronic remedy, you guarantee essentially and an addiction outcome, because tolerance builds up in it and it doesnt work
Craig, but climb pain is itself very bad and Wendy. End blunt responses to you of your crisis. Can in fact be a problem for crime
supper minimum. It doesn't address the the first topic, which is the
People were experiencing a lot of pain and they want something that will help them, and I hope you are not the appropriate remedy for that
not doing that much from a public policy standpoint to support people with physical therapy. You know,
You did a good job guarantee where we teach everyone to use, foam, rollers or something it, because this is a very serious proclaiming the aging society like this is a serious problem and its. It is something that we ve actually gotten to really late, because the concept- and I know it sounds kind of ridicule.
but the idea of pain as itself a problem with something like the medical establishment. I just said medical staff
watchman, oh god. No, no medical establishment resisted it, but the enlightened pharmaceutical company gets tired betters. Thank you. Resent that, like night to ninety six sent out like helpful mailings on how oxy cotton could solve all your problem, especially the entire idea
what pain is is something that we are still trying to figure that out, because there are a lot of times in
you will see chronic sufferers of use, pain,
we from an injury, but then sometimes paint isn't coming from a thing specifically and it's a piglet lake. I also think that that something we need to really get back to a discussion of of how did
was that on a public policy level. This means that I'm gonna be the person who, when we talk about opiates, points out that the african american death toll in the early
is it the opium crisis might have been suppressed because people were because lack patients are less likely to have their painting
seriously and GPS singularis many doctors believe that African Americans feel pain differently or less also still believe that African Americans have
her skin, which is the other
those of you who were super assiduous and listen to the weeds episode really see yesterday.
it s. A hawk some about this idea of Ethiopia. Crisis is a kind of white epidemic. Greatly has been framed that way, and so therefore, garments been more sympathetic. I would love to see
The version of this paper that is written in a play in areas that are not
so overwhelmingly way and where, in industries that are not so overwhelmingly white, but we're occupational risks are equally hard to see how much validity this idea that
No people who are in dangerous jobs are then going to get prescribed. Opium AIDS, which is then going to be a health problem for them really are verses in that might be the test of is having a job acts
better than the risk of getting into dopey Lloyd's. If you're, not us
There are we going to get it if addicted opiates cause, you didn't get prescribed them cause black, but you still have to deal with the pain, the job
causing greater guy remember you know. China talk, dare outgoing graduate school, but she's here, assigning dissertation topics,
everybody out there look into it. I think that would be. That would be an excellent one.
want to turn to some some question and answer. We have microphones here. I think people probably know how to form lines and ask bona fide questions
unified questions. Only or I will I will throw this seriously instructions. I I wanted to mention a few things. While we have rights tension, if you are still looking for the perfect holiday gift, give the gift of the weeds,
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the universe, healthcare from Nogales Arizona to Taiwan, subscribed now here, conversation with former weeds, Koko's, Sierra Cliff yea,
who circle in the impacts daily mine burger. So that's good stuff thanks every body and we will go for a question. You I'm pointing a you. Hang it on
my name is less a bet. I listen to you guys all the time, so thank you so much really glad you're here. So I was really really interested in both their decision
description between asylum and refugee,
but also the concept of war and welfare, and
as somebody I work alighting climate change, and so I am very interested in the idea of a climate refugee and
idea of who is causing the pain
the war whatever in and then who is the the refugee that is deemed where
of resettlement or whether they want to leave or not there. What were the impacts that we're causing as such?
Eighty on that, so I would love to hear, as we think in the
sure about asylum seeking and and displacement how what your thoughts are on former constructs of refugee and asylum to now
I bet you have a tidy as fully admit that climate migration is the thing where my brain shuts down and says it's too big. I can't
That's too much here, I was like actually in denial about meeting to learn about the concept until earlier this year, when it became clear that the northern triangle, migration really was in large part, a climate migration caused by crop failures
and the guatemalan highlands by this,
exactly. You know when we talk about what happens when people aren't necessarily being forced to flee. At the point of a gun held by a man and a uniform lake,
nothing in the refugee convention, equip us a deal of debts and
that's why you know the? U n set a date. They signed a global compact on refugees last year. That's trying to at least create
other ways for governments to cooperate that aren't just third country resettlement or trying to deal with the refugees they have? There is a need for ongoing conversations about this bit
no one in the international community is really equipped to have the conversation about
How do we determine who is a climate refugee, and what do we
if there are more of them than a government might feel comfortable, take action.
tease out like how prefers this. Is why? Because, like the way, the current set up works is that if the climate changes and weather patterns change and there's drought in your region and there's crop failures and people are
Hungary and the economy is going to Hell, and so you decide. I need to go someplace else. You are definitely not a refuge.
ride you weren't there. That is, that is the core. Not a refugee case, you are trying to get food and have a good life like that, no x x x, but if you stay and things keep getting worse and their starts to be conflict between two different ethnic groups over who has access to the water and armed bands start Committee
genocide, and then you fully like, then maybe you are refugee right and you have to
to the government that you aren't just fleeing, because the climate there actually are some cases of like indigenous land rights activists having to demonstrate? No really, I wasn't just fleeing, because the government has taken all of our land. I was pleased because the government targeted because I didn't want them in its its it becomes in the in the
ambulatory right of like who is a climate refugees right. It's that there is a
Category, where you say: ok, a war or something has happened, and the root cause is some climatic change, but like just leaving, because
The weather patterns have changed, because here too
now underwater, because its I mean, I don't think so. You really don't be persecuted by ethnicity, you're being persecuted by water, just just because, just because the
he'll are flooded or order wandering hell. I'm now thinking of the: U S designating water, a terrorist organisation which, because the thing is you can become a refugee if you are found to have been a persecutor in your home country and so the human body being whenever percent water, every single one of us fails, but does it Jane wishing, but the postwar bore to contact you of the refugee convention and refugee law.
it is, it is not equipped to handle like impersonal forces.
Sometimes when conservatives accused liberals of wire peel second by you, get left us on Twitter Saint. Actually, we should repeal a second amendment. However, out
You know Rucker brag men and you know libertarians. We conservatives accuse liberals have
open borders, there's not them a progressive son
we are saying. Yes, we should open borders, so what's had the disconnect between those two different policy option, you do not follow
The conference on Twitter sprang out has a good persona. Yes, you come out of it as a United States. It's not it's, though. The libertarian economists, as well as some of the liberal economists, but that this is a good description,
we're getting an eye tat out
anything you know that I was I was hoping. This was, would be a do. You support open borders, they Ivan professionally obligated not to have an opinion on that, but I dont that's good.
question that Israel and the United States is an incredible outlier in terms of gun regulation right
It is easy if you are a person who doesn't she
the gun rights viewpoint and is minimally cosmopolitan
to just look and say, hey, look like in the UK.
it's like almost impossible to get a guy. I maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think that's right and we should be like the right words. You don't
an open borders. Success story that people would point two
right. You see all the time like what we should do, what they do in Canada on Healthcare. We should do.
They do in England on guys when people want to talk about more
with some people do there isn't alike place. That is the open borders, utopia and it's like. We should copy that cause. It's very
successful ride, the United States as non open as our borders are, is a relatively high immigration country in the scheme of things and has historically been so
organs tend to talk when they talk in a programme agreed way about the american tradition right and tried to frame it in terms
as status quo or even a kind of nostalgia for the past, and if you want to talk about
open borders scenario right these sort of pre eighteen seventies, United States is probably what you
look too and then you get into all kinds of ways, technology is change. Just a lot of things were different in the pre, eight
in seventeen guy now hosted details, but yet I think that there is. I think that also you get into like they're. U, asthma said there isn't really an example to which people can go and I
that Europe. I write a lot about gun policy in talk a lot about the sacrament, but I do think that, like you, the concept of open borders,
we're not even sure what we're talking about when we use that term, because I think that there are there are some people
like literally no borders at all, but in general, like even the people who are thought of, as advocated
for open borders are not doing so, and so I think that even the language we use for that gets really challenging in a way that it doesn't necessarily for gun policy.
I during your discussion, you like tight about three that I picked up like different, conserving,
constituencies that in some way do support refugee resettlement. So was like Christians who see it as part of
we're all practice or a failure, but these resettlement agencies who are often Christian affiliated,
veterans and national security, people who are concerned about like translators and engineers, who you know a feast
these repercussions in it in their home countries and then also
like these governors, for me, they're, like deeper I'd, say it's like Tennessee or Indiana, or like more purple states who are granting need this
new permission for refugees like, despite like push back from like their party, unlike what would similarly be like an easy decision for them just to say no
and I was wondering what you guys thought like. How do you square like this
serve it I've kind of push back for like against like these hard refugee like
requirements are like restrictions and is it like? Is it real? Isn't too disparate is at muddled,
could it ever. Amounts are like a chain,
and ministries policy. I think that, could it amount to a change in the administrations? Palsied, no easy real, yes, but I do think that kind of the disparate nature of the policies and especially because, if the person, I think who best makes the case for this
is one of the best part of the leadership of the southern Baptist Convention. That's not necessarily someone like we can rely on in kind of a policy standpoint to make these arguments. I think that the Emmy, I think it's a very real sentiment. I think that there have been allowed.
of christian and religious organisations at you outside the christian tradition, who have done a lot of work on this, but I do think that the administration standpoint on this is shown
not rooted in the christian tradition, or that deal christian tradition more widely. So I think that that is like the administration is almost a separate and
pity, and it's been interesting to see those groups to see the people who are like you, I'm very supportive of the
The commission's views on
Hide amendment or the Mexico, Mexico City Protocol or aren't like the administrations views on abortion, wore white,
But I dont support this and you you to see a host of people on individual in group level, basically trying to squarely which is more important to me and that just that gets very complicated. But I dont, I think the administration that's kind of
separate thing, and they think a lot of what you see with from our politics. Where is he has incorporated a lot of less religiously observant, Non college, educated, White Breton in
the Republican Party, and he has also gotten christian conservatives to accept
a smaller share, a voice inside the party where they control abortion policy.
For example- I mean, if you went back in time to two thousand six and said like we're, we're publicans will take.
Were everywhere and they are not going to in any way impede L, Jpg, marriage, equality right. So why my blood legate? That's it
ten obtain right in policy. But there's been a backing off of several christian priorities in order to focus on abortion and a couple related issues and an influx of more secular people and a sort of less religious. More,
racial ized political conflict written? There is an open question when it comes to immigration, politics in particular, of whether there is a pure pulpit divide, whether like the people,
we here talking about the need to
refugees at the head of the southern, that this convention, but not necessarily your average southern Baptist, any that's an open question empirically, but it's definitely true that dear
and a critical mass of religious conservatives who are considering leaving the Republican Party over this. And, like that's what you that's the dissident
face if you're in the losing faction in the winning coalition. Like is this work
my actually leaving
coalition, or is this just setting it up and dealing with it, because I'm getting the other things? I want powers.
These changes in refugee policy experienced on the ground in refugee camps or their people being told that, like I'm, actually, you can come here for
what we said- that there have been changes from on high.
It's not a hard core denial. It's just kind of you know you're still in the pipeline
in the case of like people who are from travel bans countries, what you get is a proof
denial and then saying well, you can, you might be able to still get a waiver, you know. Well,
we'll get back to you on that one. So it's not
dissimilar and other way, in other words, from what you were dealing with before tromp or what you know. A lot of people in refugee camps are dealing with, which is the idea that there are not going.
we were, they are forever, but nowhere else was actually said that their buttoning monoplane, so so no one's telling them that ice.
We can't say no one's telling them that there are enough anecdotal reports of Sea BP officer.
telling people were not taking in asylum anymore. That lake. I have no idea what people on the ground or hearing and refugee camps.
Similar to other places that are more familiar with, where it's very easy for rumours to become fact. Chris thinks you're being
an avid listener of the of the pie guest. One
through lines that I feel like can have ran to the entire
conversation. Was this idea of like the legitimate refugee, the legitimate other and the non legitimate refugee and like to me. This also speaks to sort of a broader, like thirty thousand foot, view evolution of what's going on in, like American Conservative Party,
right now where there is a whole host of things that have traditionally ban within the realm of just like liberal democracy,
like legitimate areas where there is by party
consensus and now this is just completely
being eviscerated, and I'm wondering like
what is the logical conclusion of this this movement and it seems that were completely eviscerate. Ang can have the ability to even formulae.
Consensus on anything that they used to be pretty normal,
If I knew who boy
we'd be so we demanded I would I would retire. I would finally watch all the
movies I've been meaning to watch, it would be great. I think that-
one of the challenges that we ve seen in the Trump era is that what trumpeted very effectively and twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen more
and I think any candidate had is that he became
Tabula aroused upon which people could project. What
ever they wanted onto him, so you could simultaneous. He could be the best friend
van jackals ever had, and he could be the most pro else, Bt President. Ever even though he says eligibility, it's like he's, never put those letters before and it sounds like someone.
Falling down the stairs, and so you ve what you seen in movement conservatism, which is separate from it, a philosophical conservatism. It's the effort to put philosophical conservatism into practice is an attempt to figure out. Ok. What is this? Actually? What are we actually doing
and that's when a challenge, moreover, because one of the things about movement conservatism over the past forty fifty years, it's been very focused on what it opposes it's been
reflexive, and I mean this and Emily useless word, and I know that science project
but I dont mean it this way. It's been very reactionary. It is reacting to something that's that's has Burke, thought it and that you, as
They put it down we're standing, athwart history, yelling stop, so movement conservatism has been met
good at what it opposes. Movement gets
measures must not been very good at establishing what it was for, and I think that that's one on the challenge.
trot was at you. You saw a lot of people who were lake. No. This is not what conservative,
is and then allow people being like. We don't care leg. It's like the fugitive, essentially like. No, we if it turns out
Like we actually work that into free trade as much as you said,
actually weren't. We don't really care that much about like
morals, or anything like that, it turns out there, like some of us cared about those things
we didn't really care about those things in a lot of us will weigh more mad about immigration. Then you
you thought we were, and so
Seeing now is a host of different sex within conservatism, trying to get ok, here's what they're trying to tell us here's what they're saying so you're seeing
some of us on the populist right relate. This means we
to be using the force of government to do things, but do things we want
Do like ban pornography or establish
maternal leave, which is somehow the same idea coming from the same person,
Well, so you're seeing this kind of idea, but like that, has been
one of the challenges is that movement conservatism had been so focused. You see this is kind of like campus conservative.
a lot of luck. Socialism sucks, but then, when it
MR you know all right people yelling at them. They like we're not quite sure what we're for we're, not quite sure what this movement is about, what we're, what we're putting forth ill? Your reform, limited government. If it means the government can't tell you the tests
downloading pornography. Are we for a limited government before, like you're free trade, when it means that you, the company that held up your town, is
out of business because there's a company over there telling me you don't want to do a porn episode and then dragging this or not. I am sorry, but I think that that's been this idea of,
there are a lot of people within movement conservatism who for years thought they knew what this was and the ground is shifted so much that there are not sure anymore. So there can be no, it's not even about a bipartisan consensus. It's about a consensus within the movement
I mean, I think it's worth bearing in mind that, in the context of emigration, if you're not willing to go as far as open borders, you have to be making decisions about who the worthy an unworthy other is it's like it's the line about one
Churchill in the society late. It's just haggling over the price, through times a charm Matt
My name's Jared and at risk of hogging make you in a time. I have two questions. Actually the first question is heard: Dara, specifically a couple days
oh, you posted on twitter about your frustration with how some people are using certain terms, related immigration for those
to really were unable to follow that at my just. Could you explain a little bit and
Secondly, you just generally for panel,
are trump election breaks it and the ensuing
the conservative majority, a hefty policies you touched on earlier and also my understanding is that Denmark's government is
turning to try to send Syrians back to their country because they designated as safe now with lack of kind of unified
opposition to that is that harbinger of at backlash against immigration generally in the coming years.
Number two! Yes, fighting these too are actually the same question that thirty second version of the first one. Is U S
This is not to take people and put them in terrible conditions when they come to the? U S? U S, policies to get them out of? U S custody as quickly as possible by sending them out of the Eu S so either to mexican border.
Hounds where they may not have housing where they may be intensities, where they are
systematically targeted for kidnapping orange.
Recently with rapid orders of deportation or
to now Guatemala and other central american countries, other under cooperative agreements, so focusing on conditions. In U S, custody is
seeing the forest for the trees? So
things were being here ex ever. Your first question has allotted dude, so I thought I had behind. It has proven shit. I'm so senses is policy podcast. I just want to get your opinions. Are we in the age of like superstar and celebrities as politicians? Do you see it?
danger in some really interesting policy too
fix being so associated with potential.
Did a fish also Andrew Gang, and you be eyes what I think about a lot. It's like a really interesting idea, but will it forever? Will you be I in the discourse of people outside,
in this room who have never thought about you be. I only think
bought it in terms of Andrew Yang and then? The second example is so earlier
this week. Elsie was talking a lot about asset limits on snap and at first I was like oh sweet, maybe will finally get some
men on this, but my second thought was o shoot now.
there's gonna be a lot of attention in this is gonna, be added to the list of things that the right is against because they
she is like there.
perennial buggy man, so just like the personality of politics and interest
Policy ideas rate is,
Didn't you have given me a whole, nothing to worry about. I think in many senses you I started out in sports writing and
very sorry but I appear to have accidently brought the sports into the politics, because the idea of like a entity or an idea being so connected with a purse.
This is something that we see a lot in, say like college football or the
felt more broadly thinking about a specific, often being about like a specific person and like oh, you bring in that guy and he'll run this offence. Even if that's not the right thing to do so. I do think that that's a real questions. I think that that something that you see a lot you win Trump talked a lot about you, but there are a lot of people who were trivial,
Texas before trunk was a lot of those people are not happy because their protectionism was like I've written the lot of papers on this issue and trumps protectionism was like Herbert DIP in Europe
and so I think that there really is a sense, and I think that you see this in conservative politics more broadly just kind of a new specific ideas,
you're, seeing how libertarians are gonna being pushed out movement, but also the fact that, like certain ideas,
connected with certain people. In your like. I really liked this idea, this persons a dick. They think that that's a real
common issue, and it is one where,
especially there have been times in which you it's kind of that, like the
Where's person, you know, has a great idea. Meme you. I think that that's happened a couple of times with trumps specifically, and I think that that's been a challenge because there is kind of like the guy
you're right, but no, I'm gonna skip the alternating, so we can get a get another question for more here, laudable
what has it I'd? Like to kind of circle back to the refugee policy discussion, so I think something I think about a lot is how this global consensus on
usually policy and a lot of what defines kind of the limitations on the trumpet ministries.
now that we ve signed onto these like global agreements about how we treat people and seeing as
war looks a lot different now than it did in world war. Two and so com,
this changing em, we already had a question about climate
being a pressure now and, as all
changes and alongside that, we have these like more nationalist movements on it
where we don't have a trunk presidency, is the mechanism for change. For somebody who cares about refugee policy, International Institute,
or is it going to be done more at the national or even so,
national level and for more of a gradual consensus from there? I love this question because I personally think that the folk
Standing of who is a worthy refugee has totally shifted away from the black letter of U S law in such a way that lake. Arguably it would be an easy thing to get a democratic congress to
pass a more robust definition, but I don't think that does have to be national, because it's a matter of like federal law trump has been officially impeach.
I am told so that is news. One article two b to be pessimistic. I should think people should worry about international regrets.
Right that there are enough different constituencies out there.
in a range of different countries. You mean you about a lot of countries in the developing world who are actually hosting much larger groups.
Judges who are now saying look if the United States of america- and you know nice,
we, Denmark are all saying what we don't want to take people end like we should be allowed to take them out and repatriate more rapid
I mean if you look at what is happening in India right now. I that's
I would say more egregious than anything trump has
and then you are already seeing your. I wrote about this with my husband actually MTV, but the issue of state
people's. That's already been something that a lot of countries have tried to do what right just basically beta go. We will just give you passports for this country that you're not from
and you won't be stateless and then you can leave Emily like this is what I think I think you could you imagine a global role back to say, look
we are all striving to meet our international legal obligations, but actually we wish we didn't, have those obligations and like we can collectively free ourselves of them thanks
earlier. You talked about the conservative response to the refugee crisis in immigration were broadly, and I heard the statements I kind of expected here
but I didn't hear, was it a sort of realpolitik on and on
take on it, which is essentially that you know, though,
I've. Had demographic data is destiny shoved in their face and rubbed in four, like the last on no ten years or so, and
Regardless of whether or not that's accurate, I mean to what extent is this conservators
it's just an acknowledgement that continue migration from the Gulf South does threatened majorities at the federal level and key stay,
it's taxes in Arizona Florida. I mean it's difficult to talk about this without because we're talking about like.
fewer than a hundred thousand people a year, it's difficult to talk about how refugee ray of politics in particular, planned this without a sitting to the idea that there is this massive refugees.
Gets very difficult to disentangle delight myths of refugees as bad people, because you're not
going to be concerned about demographics being destiny unless you believe that we're letting a lot more people than we already are? But, but I do think this is a big issue specifically in twenty thirteen right, because at a very elite level and conservative politics
It was a kind of long standing disagreement as to like because
demographics, his destiny, do we need to do something that will make Latinos
like us more or is that few.
Kyle and we need to go the other way and that with some
that means very visibly in the winter of twenty twelve, twenty thirteen
The GEO pr topsy having a lot of memory he put on different sides of the argument, had strong feelings about it, and one of the things that has unfolded over the past several years is that the initially dominant faction in that argue
and has lost out and most elite Republicans have just decided
setting the merits a sigh that, like anti immigrant politics, wins votes in the here and now and shapes the demographics and more favourable way in the future and to an extent, the like triumphal us. Liberals were correct about immigration, and I dont think that that impacts mass politics. That much. But it is very clear:
as impacted leap politics. So changing the topic to: U S, places in economic decline that you talked about in the white paper,
An idea on another vocs podcast as recline show economist Paul Krugman Ezra talked about was populating. These places with
research, universities, but was a very short short discussion of
merits, was kind wondering if you guys had Hetty opinions and thoughts on that idea.
Basically a second round of wine grant universities that has
that's on relocating ideas. Are less interesting places I think, there's a good eye
DE. I think it's actually important to distinguish between two different cases that that often get, I think, muddled together in the regional decline issue. One is that the Great Lakes states have suffered a lot of relative decline. Those you
used to be strongly above average income places they have were grass to being about average and have also lost human beings right. You know, there's been a lot of out migration from them
The other is the sort of Appalachian Ozarks issue which are those are the poorest places in the country and they always have been right so
the question of like struggling regions. It builds those two things together and, I think, are actually quite diff
and I think the researcher universities idea is most
promising for the relative decline case, because the thing about Cleveland Detroit Saint Louis Place like that is
other problems that they have, they also
bones of major cities ride like airports, pro sports teams, should you plop a couple big institutions down and-
it's really easy to see them kind of taking fruit right. You're, not gonna, have a huge research university in a tiny mountain town like just logistically, and even if that worked
will you would generate. I got from Virginia TAT iron up. This is, I think, I'll give it to the extent that worked. Would you would be do
it is turning the mining communities into college towns, which would not preserve like what people are trying to preserve right. So I think that's a harder problem right
and it starts with acknowledging the fact that those regions have always been the sort of poorest parts of the country and amended by any means
against putting more money into regions. Universities in what
Virginia or Eastern Kentucky. I just don't think that necessarily achieves the objective that that is desire. I prepared to see if more funding
for college football in those areas could benefit economically. As we ve seen Virginia attack brings in a tone of money, Virginians football when they're not losing the Virginia
I think that I'm for prime prepared to see that you have anyone is willing to boost up Yo Eastern Kentucky Universities College Football Program, I'm I'm
I'm ready to see that the results of that feeling of professions where you're more likely to get injured than you are to make a living where we don't talk about that. Ok, so thanks to everybody up or coming thanks, so much is six than I synagogue for hosting us here and the ceiling.
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.