This week's episode of the weeds sponsored by the great courses plus go to the great courses plus dot com, slash weeds, dream: the inexplicable universe, unsolved, mysteries, absolutely free. That's the great courses plus tat, calm, slash weeds. This week's episode of the weeds is sponsored by re dream. Watch the videos find local events and joined the conversation, redrawn project, dot org the following podcast contains explicit language. I have a lot of friends of eagles welcome to the weeds boxes, policy, potassium panoply, network, a method glaziers with his usual, as my colleagues are classed as reclined in his on vacation this week, we ve got a special guess far with us. So exciting, very exciting, Libby Nelson from the website vocs dot com. I don't you guys

give it a star of education policy reporting. Yes, people have been demanding that we cover education topics from and we ve been demanding that they wait until someone go on vacation, so we can bring Libby an unexplained thanks to us so highly. I am so glad you, As a result, I can finally beyond the biggest yeah. That's the real We thought you know why not go a week and a half before the managing editor gets back from maternity, like that, That's a great time. Are you? Are you a little stressed out ices not vocs internal pause supply data, as this is vocs because you know you how you go on vacation and the real talk comes. We will see if Ezra listens to this have said so Libby. There is big education policy happenings late last year

Congress? After, like a million takes about on commerce? Never does anything and nothing happens. They actually passed a major overhaul of k, twelve education, but I cannot overstate how unlikely it was that this bill, the every student succeeds act. I do not know if we have settled unkind of E asked as a or ESA. It was really completely unlikely that it would ever get dine. I run a lot of headlines being like everyone hates no child left behind in Congress is never going to do anything about it and then kind of eight eleven hours Senate led negotiation, they actually did prettiest this bell. That, unusually for any act of Congress, is also really a major step back for the federal government and education for the first time in about twenty five years, and he passed like, but big majorities will the bill. It's like almost of step into an alternate reality like the olden days,

there was a bipartisan negotiation who passed with a huge majority right, it was, it was overwhelmingly popular for a build. A lot of people are really did not love. I think there is just the sort of sentiment that no child left behind has been overdue, very authorization for being rewritten since, like two thousand seven, there was finally kind of this. Ok, this has to get dine. Let's get it done in power through a sentiment that sort of came up. Nothing. We should explain the whole. We authorization thing, because I think especially for the young kids in the audience who have never known for that sort of effective, no child. Let me live never known a normal functioning congress, and so they may not understand swipe it took the way american government has sort of traditionally operated is that you have an appropriation cycle every year, where Congress Guenaud spends money and then like every once in a blue moon bills. Come that change

title: men such as carrying Medicare Medicaid, but when there's no new bill on those subjects, life just proceeds as normal, but then other areas of policy are dominated by these sort of big bills that are set to expire after a certain number of years. So there's a highway bill, there's a farm bill that covers farm policy and also food stamps and there's been since the sixties, at least a sort of a big k, twelve education bill. It was originally the elementary and secondary education act. So the bills. They expire after a certain number of years and you get a rewrite or it's called a real authorization, and usually the authors of the bill come up with acute new name. I remember one year the highway bill was called iced. Tea, which was, which was five hundred He was the interstate commerce, enhancement, transportation, equity act.

I really want to listen to a hope had plug cast on the people who come up with these acronyms yeah. I mean it's, it's really try and then something I fell down on the naming of this and other. You can explain why that happened. So no child left behind was the. What was it you doesn't to add to that, two thousand one industry doesn't do the immediately posts nine eleven ride, so it was the sort of the latest iteration of the gateway. Asian Bell and, like all of these things, it was set to expire after, as was an eight year about fight their their lifespan, is about five years, usually on education, those they can be extended lake without any penalty another year, and then they just kind of just stay in effect, until someone comes along and rewrite Grammy. So when no child left behind was passed, sort of in the waning days of Functioning Congress, We passed it and everyone just sort of figured ok. Well there

you re authorization, but then there like there wasn't and we got into this sort of the dark present when it seems unlikely that Congress, whatever do anything so education policy for four years, had been hanging in this sort of legislative, limber yeah. This was it big problem for no child left behind, in particular, because if you were not around for it or don't, remember these fine details of it, it set this very, very ambitious goal that was eight centrepiece promise for George W Bush, which was that every child in America, would be able to read and do math professionally or at grade level by the end of the Twentyth thirteen fourteen academic year, everyone knew this was never going to happen everyone knew Inuit Hasn t. This was never going to happen that it's like Greeley, not a realistic goal for a lot of reasons. It was an admirable goal, but like no one was like tat. Unlike eleven years, this is totally gonna get died. That was written thinking that Congress would fall.

normally in a round two thousand and seven slash, two thousand and eight certainly be like two thousand and eleven or so, and it really started to get close Congress Woods Musical, we'll down the line rewrite the bill come up with it. You know, take wedded, been learned over the past six years and come up with a different approach. The problem is that didn't happen, and so like the highway bill or the higher education. Billikin sort of bee expired for a long time, and it's really not that big a deal it actually was. A the problem that it took Congress, though on to come back to no child left behind. So what happened you get to twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen? Obviously all american students are not provision in reading and math what happens at other consequences or the. Where does that leave us yet that idea behind no child left behind was they would have the skull and then schools would be required to make progress every year towards that goal and if they weren't making progress, they would face sort of this cascading level of various. Some of them are putting Some of them are interventions, but it's like it you're. Not here really. Can we need to get you here?

As the number of schools started, climbing the edges an apartment and an army Duncan, in particular the education secretary kind of saw this opportunity to be like this is unreal. take. We have like massive numbers of schools that are that are going to start missing these targets and what they did was basically We will let you out of these consequences through waivers if you makes Kind of other policy changes when the ability for the education secretary to do that was in law. I just had never been used on this lake tons of had waiver it. I dont, remember the exact number, but it was over forty. It was far more dead than did not and it became the sort of the dominant way. Education policy was happening for several years. Why was that aren't Duncan, and the Obama administration were saying: ok, where we have some state level policy changes that we would like to see, states make and we are going to

use this waiver process to induce them to do it, and that was not. The vision of the law is really the past six years where this varies weird time and education policy, which is mostly run at the state level. No child left behind the big bell, but it's the federal government provides less than fifteen percent of of all school funding. They can do things like sectors. Oh and requires states to meet it, but like how you go about that. It still mostly up to the states so between some money in the stimulus bill, and then this like looming acts of no child left behind the Education Department, was really able to say these are the policy changes we would like you to make here We cannot make you do them, but we can certainly like offers them pretty strong incentives in order for you to go about them and what what? What were they try to get states today

play wanted to come and core standards, but you're being all that the reading and math expectations that were supposed to be shared among all states. They wanted, as many states as possible to sign on to those to sign onto to new tests that are associated with the common core and then the other big thing was to exchange. teachers? Job performance is evaluated and, in some cases like how their Paden promoted they really wanted test scores and other measures of data to be more important in those decisions than historically they have been so clear, talk of Livy about what is different under this new law, what will be different for student two are in wonder that all take effect and change here. It takes effect school year. I believe at twenty sixteen seventeen academic year students themselves early. If you're like a kid in a classroom, you are probably not going to see a big change from this law, certainly not on the level of like the common core which actually changes the work that kid there doing,

today what this law changes is. It still requires the annual standardize tests but it's sort of leaves the consequences for schools for teachers for school systems entirely up to the states. There is no longer this like big goal that they have to meet. When there are no longer is a federal definition of what it means to be making progress. So the law basically says you still have to test kids every year from third eighth grade in math and reading and occasionally in science. You have to have some kind of system to look at those test results and hold schools accountable for them period. I think its words like stepping back and looking at what was that no child left behind idea ride, so it was starting in that in the sixtys. The federal government had started providing money for k, twelve education- I mean historically, the reason education has been at state policy matter is the federal government was like really really not involve yeah.

And they ve started giving money and they were. The money was targeted roughly at lower income school districts. With the idea being that you know there was like a federal interest in helping to make sure that poor kids had had access to adequate education but then there was a feeling that money resources per se were not necessarily enough to get the job done and that lots of school districts we're, not in some sense doing as good a job as policymakers wanted them to do notwithstanding the financial resources that they had, so we were going to hold them

accountable for results, the others there would be standards, there's a couple of sort of epochs. The first evoke is just like we're going to spend this money. This was the album J, great society like they're, really poor schools with a lot of work heads they need help that their local property tax base, which is the traditional, that of school funding is not going to provide that. Unlike the late eightys, there is this massive report. The Reagan: administration called a nation at risk that basically said american education socks and it's going to hurt our global competitiveness. It was huge important Ronald Reagan had been elected, is like a get the federal government out of education closed on the education department. This really shifted the course of education policy making by starting this like alarm that we're spending the money we're not getting any thing, and so the idea develop that there needed to be standards for what kids learn. The term standardized test is based on standard like there should be a thing that you are able to do. We are going,

test you to see? If you can do it so around late eighties, early Ninetys, there were sort of incentives for states to develop any kind of standards for what their kids learned. Then George, W Bush came in with a sort of a different idea, based on what he'd been doing in Texas, which was there needs to be much more than like. You just have to have standards. There need to be a lot more emphasis on our schools meeting them our kids learning and is every kid learning not just based on the average of you know. You have a ass. A hundred kids and eighty of em we're doing fine, and so you look like you're doing fine and the numbers by literally leaving no child behind looking at kids of color, poor kids could with disabilities kids. His learning was not necessarily always the first priority in the american school system and the recent years

Educational outcomes are very strongly correlated with parents, socio economic stains weight. So if you take a school district, where most of the parents are college graduates, most of the kids in that system will do well on tests almost regardless of what is happening in the schools right, so that when there's a thinking that we have to focus specifically on sub populations, just sort of get a view into? Is the system accomplishing what its supposed right into that might like? They were even necessarily breaking out test scores. We did not even know in every state if poor kids were keeping up or what the racial gap wise like not every. There is no requirement that states even look at that, Asian Muddle and act on a new socio read so apparent in and you'll see when you talk to other parents, or are you talk to real estate agents who are violating the fair housing act? They will, as one does under the first,

I do not suppose discuss school district quality, you're selling. I am sure that by the way another. That's really interesting, as is a strange law, but a true one anyway, widely broken when it well. When people say, oh, there's, good schools in the neighborhood they are normally doing. Is there looking at broad aggregate outcome There are really measuring the parents in the district. More than anything else there not diving deep into the data to try to say ok in demographically adjusted terms. Does the school do better, worse. Then you would expect the whole sort of like dad test revolution is about trying to produce some of that sort of formation, and one of the interesting things hearing will be like go through this history is its so hard to see, Republicans being where George W Bush was when no

but behind z started- and you see this is a lot of domestic policy making like the space I cover Carry you know, there's so much pushed back against, like of these big federal regulations are turned to standardize healthcare. We want Louisiana Healthcare and Louisiana. What it seems to speak to a very big shift in how we think about the federal government. RO in these systems, because insurance is another one that really typically gets regulated at state level care change that moves into the regulation up to the federal level. Much to the outcry of Republicans who oppose this, but it just like such a EU in ten or so year period like a really big shift and how conservatives think about what is best for education, yeah. This is something I ve talked about with magic of old times as well. I sort of have this internal debate. Myself about like is now the anomaly like. If there's has there been a big shift or what I think is actually more likely is that the year is like two thousand and two two thousand and six

nurse out? We're really be anomaly where there was this, there have always been republican. Since the creation of the Department of Education who said there should be no federal department of Education. Basically, every year since it was established, some republican candidate has called for shutting down by there. Is this like I'd mom In the late nineteenth early two thousands when there were like business, Centric, Republicans and business interests, really love the idea of a stronger National forest and education, because they they think it's an economic competitiveness issue. It's it's getting better workers, essentially I'm getting workers who are better than that of the world, and so you see things like the Chamber of Commerce, is very in favour of pretty much any national level. Education reform that the people can come up with. George, W Bush was very much in that mauled and then George W, It was like looking for an issue to be like a compassionate conservative on end. nobody really has a problem with like what he did to Texas or what is rather get in Florida, because it was done at the state level like that. The conflict was when he was like. Everyone should do that

even at the time that there were? Definitely many Republicans were really early skeptical of this, and so I think what happened is less like a shift within the party as much as No, it's the ongoing story. It like this loss of power for the establishment of the people who believe that there is some role and Beth have mostly just lost position the power and it doesn't help that no child left behind woods viewed as late policy wise, a mixed, excessive best politically like vat? sunlight disaster as I'm. The oddity is that this very within the republican coalition, actually pretty narrowly associated with one family yea other violent, like the Bush family, they just drive menu and in the two presidents, the governors of the second and third largest states. One point: a leading presidential candidate read so like it was a lot of influence tied up, but now, is like JEB fades. Fuel accordingly. I will wait how many Republicans actually supported this, and why are they all relate

two but vote over. I mean that they voted on voted for at the time, and I, like you re here and not where he was the recently elected president, fulfilling his campaign promise. But we should. We should also, as a part of the issue here right on both sides. Is that the perception, both among pro no child left behind Republicans and among Anti, Child left behind Democrat, of which there are many on both rabbi, though I was that these standards and accountability system was against the interests of teachers and there where you re Emmy I've just like an important angle to that's. The feeling was that the practical upshot of accountability, but equally the strict account debility measures was that people were going to lose their jobs for not performing right.

That you know at conservatives believe you should be dissolving alot of public schools and replacing them with with choice systems or radically altering how the personnel and and staffing policies work and the Obama administrations or forms, while different from the letter of no child left behind were in line with that same spirit. Rayner. Their waivers were largely for doing things that reduce teachers, job security tie their compensation to students, performance rain, and these are the kinds of things that union's don't like and in part because unions dont like them, some republicans do like them. Vice versa. Where things even on that, I want you to talk about that. While we have you here is kind of some of the kind princess build into no child left behind of not hitting the standards couldn't seems like that is one of the big limitations of actually implementing the policy that it's very hard

to shut down a school that you got a lot of push back that people off if you dont like when their squaws get shot down, like it seems like from the research I've read mostly summarised by you. Because the actual papers are quite long and complicated. It is that, if they use the strictest can punishments. It seem to really work and improve education, but, it was a lot of hesitant to use those very strict punishment and curious how you think, Bout United States can take over a lot of theirs instabilities for making sure that schools are succeeding with what is it going to be like for them Will they use the four toolbox policy to us that they have at their disposal? Definitely a lesson of no child left behind is like it said there is the sleigh cascading level of sanctions that at one level was you had, did offer kid. The chance to transfer to another school would have them, which the whole other side issue. They had done

offered tutoring services which, mostly like enriched private tutoring companies, did not do great for test scores and then, like the ones, you failed to meet these targets for like five six years, then really tough and then it was like you have to replace all the staff or you have to get a new principle or the state is going to take over your school or take over your district. Those greeley drastic consequences. Aim weren't use very much because the relative to other is there's like an ongoing question and like education policy twitter, like how many schools, if any, wherever shut down because of no child left behind in its shockingly hard to answer Those seem to work in terms of the research that we saw out of North Carolina and I believe, Florida and a few other places that looked at them like once. It got really really drastic. Things started to look up and one back, I got when I wrote an article sort of based on this research. That was like, we don't know a lot about how to improve schools, and I got a lot of people say no, we do. I turn them into charter school. That's the way to improve them, and I was like I mean me, depending on the charter operator, but like that is also Greeley really dress.

Like we're going to turn school into a totally different type of school is not a thing, that's politically popular and that's a huge problem for states anybody wanting to design like a tough accountability system? Why? This turns out, I think, to be the unanticipated learning of this rain. I think people thought back in two thousand that some public schools in the United States were performing drastically worse than other public schools in the United States and that people who were sold into those public schools would welcome, as a last resort, having those very bad public schools shut down. Because, of course, we have a policy in the Eu States of mandatory universal education. So it's like you know. If the subway station in your neighborhood shuts down, you have no subway station. If the school in your neighborhood shuts down- and it's really bad, you kids then go to a different school and, for example, the local home and your school in my neighborhood is quite

am. I personally had really welcome it being shut down, so my kid could go to a different, better school, but it turns out tat people who thought that was how populations would we act to school closure were badly mistaken. That people really really want to send the kids to misery Paul terribly performing local public schools, rather than send them to ones that are slightly further away in a little bit better. I find that pause doing, and I can certainly see why in advance that was not what people thought the reaction would, but I think you see really Clem and we ve seen in DC. We see it in Chicago You see it almost everywhere that people feel instead of feeling that call laying down underperforming schools and low income. Neighborhoods is a way of helping people. People experience that as like a secondary wave of assault

and it's worth noting like there have been a lot of school closures lately they have not been because of no child left behind typically Edward, I'm cut it some combination of how their performing and also like we have too many schools, because our relation, is aging and like governance, it's part of us by that related yea, relegate it it's the same political lesson and it's like the emotional connection to the idea of a neighbourhood school is really really rich. People like routinely underestimate that, particularly in communities that don't necessarily feel that they have a lot of attention from the municipal government or a lot going for that, like the idea that, like I went to the school at my kids, go to a school or lake. Making knows every one at that school like the test. Scores might be terrible, but the principal knows there name. That is a real thing like a big disruption, yeah like switching, who I got the general idea that you don't want your kid. You go to a better school, you can see on the lake ground level if it feels very deep? up to Heaven the gloomiest out of your area? That's not getting a lot of municipal

services like a place- it's less but good well, served by cops, has like a lot of potholes. It just doesn't get a lot of attend from the city. I can totally understand, even if it is not the most logical reaction. The reaction of like this is my This is a thing we have to be very disruptive and maybe hard to get your kid to school across town or wherever, like whatever the noosed option. Is that their actual disruption way, and they are also like not necessarily moving kids like you're, not going from my garrison, which is that they were at school to lake schoolwork, Mclean region I would like you know a hundred per cent. most infuriating, like a lot of times, are stepping up one degree performance and that's all that's like you know when you balance out against the disruption of having to change gold. I get it like. I understand from like an economically efficient three slash. Four of you or like you should want to be in the best school. even if the little further away, but I have been surprised by like that, the level of emotional connection to schools that lake

thirty four years before. If you're writing about him, it would have been like this is a terrible schools failing the community. Why does that exist? right man so- and this is where we what you said before that we don't know how to make schools better right to the extent that we do know how to make schools better. The problem is that it involves moves that are so drastic that, in a fact, It's like the school. Isn't there anymore? It's either you literally close the doors and send people elsewhere or you fire everybody. What different people in or you use the building as a charter school and what people would like is for the school to in a some sense clearly be the same right. It was last year, but just be better yeah, like we came in with this reading programme. Unlike their there are things that that work, but it's it's usually

regional effects and with the skills that are really really troubled like the problem. Is there not necessarily gonna be able to implement, like whatever these consultants or programmes are curricula, say, is going well and often what people seem to want. Certainly at the garrison, Alimentary Peter literally superficial improvements to the school facilities, so that it looks more like a nice school which I am sure matters like to some extent like how drab and goofy is the classroom, and you see like in Detroit rather things region, exe I've always rather like holes in the floor in or at least, I think, there's a point- we're not talking about that. Whatever the bad thing, it should not happen were clearly you can't work can teach, but I think it's difficult to find research that supports the idea that the physical condition of the facility is like the primary lever, driving stood learning, but its easily observable adds like what we can do like. We know how to paint a law in Russia

Maybe I would ask you a question about ass, a level where I that's it I'm calling hand if education walks out there. I want to tell us their preference, you can let us now. We should use a fox. What do you think changes and again as a result of this law that we advocate divergence, where, like I think you were in the Connecticut like already taken some steps, kind of a give up, what they want to do, GCSE data Have I got less regulatory attitude things changing or a little like. How do you think this like effects? Are? You said they re if you're kidding, classroom and probably not going to notice the chain But what do you think a means for the educational outcomes? Yeah overtime- I mean you know it. It just cause. You're, not gonna, see anything like the first day of school. Your next year, it doesn't mean things are going to change this statement. Lives gonna matter of light Their story of the lake hopeful take mostly from sort of conservative leaning edge.

Reformers on this, which is lake no child left behind, was so prescriptive. It was tying state hands. We found things that worked, we weren't able to implement them because because of it was set up. There will be some foreigners in sort of the vein of the Bush family, who use this to create interesting, possibly effective ways of of evaluating kids learning holdings, but there are also there to be a lot of states. I think we're like they come up with a system that passes muster with the edges department- and that's about it, so I think we're about to see a lot more divergence which is already sort of started to happen with with the waivers and some other things the Obama administration has done in terms of lake. How interested governors are an education? How much do you want to take this inner on with their how much like a budget crisis in Kansas in Illinois and that they need? Other states, I'm probably for getting, is going away and on this lake it stuff.

I sort of an earlier era in terms of the amount of interest from there it from your legs legislature and governor in quality. Education is going to be a lot more important. It'll, be interesting to see where the business community ends up feeling now than than the dust settles on this right, that they were big pushers of a kind of reform agenda, particularly inside the republican coalition, to an extent that sort of like corporate, in these influence on the trajectory of republican Party. Politics seems to be waning and you know today give up. Do they decide. You know, there's a certain number of states that their comfortable with the policy was in part a manifestation of a kind of social consensus that did not exist. I mean they also. Some liberals feel that the focus on education reform is a kind of like unfair and that it's weird to be putting some

emphasis on this, like one stool of social service provision and so little emphasis on nutrition or another kind of services. But the reason for that is that you had, by and from the Chamber of Commerce, for the idea that we need to make schools work. I well where's the Chamber of commerce, not particular care about whether Medicaid works well or about whether municipal bus systems work. While it's difficult to imagine the business community becoming like Bernie Sanders Social Democrats and deciding every aspect of such services matter right and if they just go to a sort of generic like we don't care posture about. This, then, is hard to see republican politicians continued. I think like what happens to education reform going forward and in both parties as a huge question that ESA Lake, by taking in a little bit off the national table, also is like

up even more, like it's unlikely in both parties for different reasons. This, like sort of no child left behind and then carrying into the Obama Ere. I, like the federal government, should force and or incentivize states to do things in education and to do these particular things that we be sort of centrist. Reforming community likes that collisions tunnel exploded Ah, that's probably that the last word and that after a break out, let's talk about another, exciting aspect of education: little more sport, More higher education focused. You know, I'd a wonky wonky like it March madness, like You we at the weeds, we really loved, learning new things and that's what we really loved. The great courses plus video learning service gives you unlimited access. This enormous library of the great courses, lecture series and all kinds of topics: science, philosophy, history, cooking, whatever wheeler

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ways. So we are in the middle of March madness, the middle of March, the middle of sports ball as we like to call it at vocs, and I would like to come as a guideline for lie down. There's a hater iron, it's fine! It's fine! I've been watching some Virginia games because my boyfriend went there and that's been fine anyways. We are not going to talk about basketball strategy or which teams are likely to win, because that would not be in keeping with the weeds what we are going. talk about is the envy of delay, which has come under a lot scrutiny, I'd say over the past few years or so for the way it treats athletes or the money it is making that is being shared or not shared among schools and luckily again, we have lived here who has written on this and has a lot of thoughts,

understand? You covered the northwestern unit, unionization pleasure, you didn't know. I do not. However, it says I have actually not written on this very much at all, but I have a lot of interest in it because I am a higher education writer. Who knows that my college for its vandam is untenable. Morally suspect and yet clings to it. Symbols are important, so I think you one of the biggest groups telling arguments as you have a lot of these students, athletes and see the uniformly says have to be amateurs. They can't be compensated for the they are doing. They are primarily students and secondarily athletes. And there is a lot of push back that has been growing over the past few years to that idea. So there's no they came out a few weeks ago, indentured by Jonas era. The New York Times, Taylor Branch of the Atlantic has been writing a lot of this issue in the region is make a pretty compelling case that students are getting a very raw and of this deal

doing a lot of things in the vein of professionalism, but our captors amateur, and losing out, and a lot of things they could be benefiting from, as is the tv deals grow in the sponsorships, and all of that we have a labour, even thinking and writing about this here. How do you feel that Then the delay right now yeah I mean, I think great. What we're seeing right now is a little bit of a perfect storm over the last five years, where schools started entering into these really really lucrative broadcasting deals which had existed before, but have just exploded with the big ten network, which carries like all big tens words, the long or network which literally exist solely to broadcast to sports of the,

the attacks us possibly other things, actually never watched it not being in Texas met my now, it's mostly focused on yours. Do isn't explosive amount of money, mostly from these tv and Associated broadcast, deals at the same time their spend this like growing consensus medically, and that is sort of made its way into the public consciousness that football is very dangerous which we knew, but that the concussion crisis and the impact of these Pet impacts, comrade a lot easier and last longer and start at lower levels than people were necessarily previously aware of, and so at the same time there's it's the sort of Lake Erie. than we thought it was it's making more money than ever before. The idea that like this is a thing that you do and you get a free education and exchange, and that's it lake is, is just looking a lot less more

a tenable here and so well to weed out a little bit yet so like what one of the things is happening in the economy as a whole. Where does it because of streaming like Netflix and because of Dv Ares that things like that? It's gotten harder and harder to sell ads, television programme, but the demand to by advertisements stays pretty constant. There's researching about one point: three percent of GDP is spent on advertising like now, almost no matter what happens and add buyers. I mean the smart ones. Obviously, advertise unpack, asked and an internet examines, but but at buyers are most comfortable with television, but at the same time it's gotten harder and harder to find television shows where people will watch the ads so you're, seeing an explosion of interest in live events. That's why they're suddenly, like Peter PAN Live and in Greece, lie Can anyone do that right? That's why we learn. How are you that's, why formerly

secure award shows like the sag awards, are suddenly like big television broadcast events, and that's also why college sports has gone from a thing that there was a substantial amount of money in to a thing that this huge amount money- and so you see this in person more do right, and so the NBA I signed a much more lucrative television last year and so on. Means that, when the collective bargaining agreement expires this year, the salaries for the players are gonna go way up, because you gotta windfall but in the NBA there's like a cartel raw that you, you can't pay the athletes, but you can pay the coaches. You can pay the athletic directors, you can pay the guys,

broadcast boots who call the game. So more money is flushing in and its pouring out. Everyone, except the guys who are playing in with its unique right, so it's like the college athletes are being left out of the live events boot that's benefiting not just in college sports, but like all kinds of other people with a kind of a piece of alive pie and that's what made it particularly striking. even now, like the basic situation, has happened forever and theirs, but he's running you said there that I don't think you really. She said the troll important, which is its the guys, we're playing, and when we talk about sort of this issue of paying athletes of huge revenues, words of huge revenue, TBD else we're talking about men, basketball, and football to very, very slight, extend occasionally ones basketball, if you're like Yukon, but like the problem with that There is no way- and this is one of the issues confronting the NBA. You can't make a deal that only for football players. You know you can't. Like what you guys were playing the revenue sports, you get paid and everyone else is an amateur or at the very least

like the Anthea Delay, would never sort of consent to that. This is how you have this weird paradox where, like for most colleges, sports lose money and they are basically a marketing budget. The social field for profit college is always day when, when Congress, like halls, remained to be like look at all, this money is spent on advertising and there lay, but look at all this money, like the University of Maryland, spent on its football program that advertising that's putting the brand name of the university in front of people, and then you have this very small handful of schools that early Greeley, bringing in lots and lots and lots of money right so would you have is through title, mine and other dynamics right. The football players and the basketball players, and especially football players. Willie really are generating surplus, some of which is going to the adults associated with the football basketball programs. You can see these maps who's the highest paid public abruptly in your shade and propose, unlike any it's always a footballer basketball. Co tried so every day,

it is worth being clear and where there are just grown up. Professionals who are profiting personally from this, but the other thing that's happening- is that a cross subsidy is flowing to the other sports in the universe right and the sort of reality that people do have to think about is that if you paid the players from the revenue sports fairly, you would either have to divert money out of academic programmes into maintaining other kinds of sports or you would have to reduce the total amount. Of sporting. Us that's happening, and then I think you get me so I got legal. Often like you know you can have many of our basketball like nothing else. That's not a thing that you can do right, we'll bury mean you could shrink yeah overall, you only, you could do something, but they were. There would be less sportswriter less by its, not just that you would have better paid football players, and so then you

into a sort of a bigger, somewhat philosophical question about like: why is it that in the United States is considered an integral of higher education and professional sports. Yes, yes, looked immigrants because they actually rise, despite being a lifeline hodge for its van and a person in and around higher education. Now, if you count when I was in college for, like more than ten years of my life I had no idea like that is just the way it is, and it's the way interestingly, for football basketball, it has not waited for baseball. Basically, the answer is. this like accident of history, whereas baseball grew up out of gentlemen. Is like battling it out for this lake sort of intramural, sport that they were doing the first football games were between colleges, and so it just sort of became entrenched. Is this thing that is done at colleges before there, even like, where the concept of professional sports and what really changed the dynamic like that beyond. Being like a fine thing that you could do was

more recent, then that a lot of people realize it was basically why my professional sports became a thing and like going pro and making enough money to live on, which is a separate issue, and professional sports became a possibility and that's like within the lifetime of many adults, not within mine but like within the last. Like fifty sorry style initial in some ways, I think that points they did at the the most plausible alternative to the current system is not really a world in which college athletes are being paid for their work. So much as a world in which the whole universe of college or its withers to some extent- and you see more like baseball ready that that the differences that there are college baseball team

training that they mean way to be a baseball player. Who is not a major league baseball player whose young and promising and may be will be in the major league. Some day is to be a minor league baseball player and you could have been a football league to an extent. You have a minor basque Bali, but right now those are not mainstream right, but so you could have wanna, be professional athletes playing in professional, minor leagues and then students looking for a hobby playing, but we will call club sport, which happens a baseball. Essentially I mean that does sort of. I don't know. I mean like what the alternate universe where this never happened, looks like. I don't know if that our universe ever looks like that because of path dependence in our I also want to say, like we ve a lot of people talk about this, and I have been guilty of this too, like that. The only unsuitable reform of the only thing, the players one seller- is basically have a salary and that actually

we want all the union. It northwestern led the tentative union that now will never happen, and I will never even know if they voted for it or not. They were not asking to be paid. They were asking for more medical coverage. They were asking for a sort of it, an acknowledgment of like players, rights, the idea that if you have a four year scholarship and you get hurt that can't be revoked. If you get injuries that last your whole life like the schools on the hook for them that may be, but this sort of milk. path, looks like a could, probably eventually led to some kind of revenue sharing demand. But I didn't get important to note that, like not everyone who is an activist in this movement, thinks that salaries and the one I think we can all live billowy for football is yours would probably more IX guy about football. Injuries is where the idea of a student athlete came from in the first place, and I think this is worth some of the background of players comes in debate, where you have a lot of folks are being recruited from lower income areas who book indenture When I started reading last week, start today story this guy who's

coming from Minos, single mom family for kids, Cedar he's really good a basketball ends. He ends up with the recruiting violation, because someone else pays for his moms ticket to come out. The time on a visit to see some college or you had am, I think, up until a few years ago, the Universe II that could be for food for athletes, so you ended up with kids coming to practice hungry because they couldn't afford. You didn't have the kind of extra cash for paying for feels like you said these are not in the realm of salary, but there are things that do now fits struggle at the use of the medical liability would be a major one and probably one that universities would be even more resistant to than salaries because of these simple medical bells. One can wreck coupling football in various other sports yeah. This is actually I just learning that yesterday, which I am eager to show that anecdote, but behold emptied outlay concept is based on these students athlete, which is a term.

Term of art. That is likely you're, not only a student, because then we can justify why you're spending all of last time. You know travelling for sports, but you're not only an athlete, because then we have to pay you, and this came about because there was a football player, and I believe where to better and who had died in a sort of catastrophic head injury in Colorado College in the nineteen fifties and his widow wanted survivors benefits under workmen invitation and such like this was where the idea that, like no you are not a worker, you are not entitled to workmen compensation. Your survivors are not entitled torments car came about and it interesting that of football in basketball. Little for in this regard- I mean they're similar in that the demands for bomb men's bar revenue sports its March bandits has us thinking about this initially, but basketball, as far as we know, is not dangerous in same way, that for parliament, obviously any athletic endeavour like people get

in journey. But it's also unhealthy, did not play sports are do any physical activity now where's like football. I would say at this point only crazy person with characterizes like good exercise. That's gonna be good for you and in life its challenges. I think to imagine football as something that people do in a way that we recognise if he wrapped it down the money involved in a really hazarded deep sea fishing ride like people. Do it yet because they get they get paid. You know it's fine right. It's like it's, it's glamorous to be a college football star, but it really he is tackle, football is something people do because they are expecting of reward for for doing it. They don't play pick up games in full, pads and helmets

and there was people play basketball for free area. They give away. That's got for families, people play soccer for five. Maybe there is somebody will it call it and tell me about this? I am not aware of a lake hey, we used to play football, but we were younger. Now we get together like having fulfilled or maybe you know they lack fire by areas aground, nor I am going to bar out or touch football. I like light for the right people do think it is a bit I may re, but is it just is what you do like recreational football playing. Looks nothing like big time football and what's interesting. Is that big time football proof? A ball skills down into college and even in the south at least Highschool football games that are really serious. You know with a big guys, hard heads words, just adults who are not being paid and are too old to be in college just never ever do that. You will not see that and that's very differ from soccer basketball baseball where people are. Obviously, if you look at a pick, a basketball game, their terrible and compared to professionals

their dribbling around to recognise a recognisable version that the varieties see the same thing with ice hockey, which is another sport, but you might like play version of? But it looks like nothing like the concussion and using sport that we call likely at each end it would be like sort of entertaining round. James showed up at your local took a basketball game. I mean he wished. He would destroy you put metaphorically, whereas, like if a professional football player showed up like you would have to run away because it's dangerous union, to have enormous men with pads and helmets, diving actually trying to bring you to the ground like that. That is really to me like a unique case. There's a lot of happenstance and path dependency on both sides of the game of football as it originated in american colleges, did not look all that much like the current professional football game. It was in terms of the physical conduct involved

much closer to rugby, which looks more dangerous to the untrained. I would actually appears to be much safe. Although- and I learned preparing for this, as you did- a number of unveiled deaths, including the one you have mentioned- it isn't later ITALY and like the fifties, sixties or silly thing even before that, like that, are the turn the twentieth century, the anti delay, as we know it exists because every game freaked out with my colleague rap footballs, really dangerous. Why are we let S leg, rich teenagers play this or, unlike Teddy Roosevelt, got involved my father Teddy Roosevelt Fan College Football Fan owns this publication, borrow it from him. I have not read it but like in I have here is about did a thing. It led to the creation of the unseen of allay unlike college, but, as we know it, based on like a freak out kind of like we're having nationally right now about like? Oh, my god. This is a bad idea and none other venture.

I'm here for fun historical beds at loggerheads. I guess maybe, as our own comeback images, do that's that's great. I learned a lot and then, after a break out, let's talk about about taxi efficiency and regulation. This week's episode of the weeds is sponsored by re. Dream we dream. Is a nation wide projects taking look at the idea of the american dream, the ideas to discover with online videos and local meet ups, what it means to make it in the twenty first century. Watch the red Room, documentary Series and Youtube is Adele's into the hopes and struggles of average Americans. There's a new video every week day from now through April. Twenty second project pairs online storytelling with over thirty community engagement events. We dream is led by Casey BT and partnership with fourteen other PBS member stations. All across the country is sponsored by Think shift and initiative. The De Bruce Foundation watch the videos find local events

join the conversation. We dream project, dot, Org aright so far are research paper of of the week. We wanted to look at a newish paper that came out that Jed Kramer and Alan Krueger on Cougar by the way does a lot of media worthy economic research. I think we are everyone variants of eggs, yeah indicted, like always I'd, even realize they Rina renamed. I know that name. He has an incredible NOS four, like journalists are going to care about this, and everyone should pay attention. A new paper that's out and be on paper, as is so often, live every day like and then be our day working a working paper. A working paper indeed mean how distinction, so they are looking at goober and they are looking specifically at the productivity of labour Ex drivers, verses, sort of conventional taxi drivers, which, if you listen to us last week, we talked a lot about the sort of technical definition of of,

activity and how it interplay is with technology. And this is an interesting example, because what they find is that over drivers or more productive than conventional taxi drivers in a very sort of simplistic sense, but an important one, which is at whether you're driving a conventional cab or neuber acts a certain amount of time, you're working in the sense that you're driving a car around but you're not getting paid anything at all because nobody's in the car and so to the extent that you can have

wade driving an empty cab around you become more productive, not because you're, smarter or your car is better or anything like that, but just because its inefficient to drive an empty taxi and they find that looking at at five different cities, I think that Dubai Ex drivers are significantly more productive than conventional taxi drivers and that this is driven by the sort of the underlying goober technology in a number way is right and that one is that it lets a labour market, be more flexible, so that people tend to just not draw if at times when there are a lot of people who want it and they do a search price. So when there's a lot of demand, you actually get paid higher rates, you tend to come on, but then just the basic sort of software thing you don't matches drivers with riders more efficiently instead of cruising around and random. Hoping somebody sticks that hand up your phone actually tells you where the passenger is, and you go get him and then last, but by no means least there's a sort of way of liquidity effect. Where, because you

lot of cars writers, can be confident that somebody will come quickly. Which means that a lot of people might actually go. Look for raw its, and I remember I've That's him! I was in San Antonio, where, where my in laws are from, there was no goober allowed their at. That time and I was looking into getting a taxi to the airport anyways, I God, is like absurd how long it was going to take them to send someone over to my inlaws house, and you can see that this, like a chick an egg is she read, I mean obviously San Antonio as it is a car oriented driving city. People can drive there on car most places, but- like anywhere you might need to get to the airport you might be drunk. You might want a taxi, but there are so few taxi is that it was like a crazy to try to call for a taxi. So then, if you would know that you would never try to call for acts so then there would be no access, is right and if you can move to this other equilibrium, where there's a lot of cabs than there might be a lot of passengers and and that that's a sort of big

driver of efficiency and one other interesting thing that jumped out of me in this paper is the one city where they found. This wasn't true. Was New York were basically you have, because people are hailing cabs all the time, because it's not a driving city. You didn't see that members are more productive than taxis, because in where'd you generally like, wouldn't even these when I'm in new york- and I don't even think about calling the work is there's like literally taxis everywhere, and I can just like put my hand out and one will show up and that feels much more efficient than men getting out my phone. Yet to do this as long as by New York. You mean Manhattan and certain part of Brooklyn where people go. I may as well, because obviously that's totally wrong to try and try to hail a cab. You know in the Bronx and you can have a problem in the words of New York. I frequently that out me as like a total european boring, but then what things I think about coming out of this paper, they could taxi please get to the same level of efficiency. By adopting new technology. or are there things that restrict them as older businesses that make? It very

to do that, because you see like different apps that veto, let you hail a taxi, though they dont quite seem too. I can't even think through the eyes of some app Africa, too, is called like Hell They are highly allowed. We don't even know it's still by ended up like deleting and just deciding to do over our, I guess like because they were intended. Faster, but what things I think about, as I can old businesses like take some of the technological advances. get to the same level of efficiency or what differentiates them from model delta, Goober and left her belt yeah. I found this to be like variants using research in advance because members entire system is based unlike instead. Rising, more drivers, many more of whom, I think, work part time. They cabdriver like it's a lot easier to be. Like I own, a car, I'm gonna be a part time we're driver when I too weak, then I went by attacks of Italian, unlike essentially started small business you're insane to get on their own when there's more people around. There is lessons that have in terms of the amount that drivers make when there are more than twenty cab to passenger ratio, is

is that I would like well. I guess this proves its working like their idea is correct, but I did not actually find it particularly surprising from Maybe I just talked to me was sort most important about this. To an extent is answer was saying the finding that New York, the ass different, simply because so much of what you read on the internet is produced by people who live in New York, and I have always found this to be huge- distort in Florence on the coverage of goober yeah. I read about a million takes that have as their premise the idea that Goober competes with mass trend which is a very New York view of the world because, like in New York City, a lot of people take mass transit in Dc Chicago Boston? a dance, zero number of people who commute mass transit niceties, but its is incredibly small minority. Even in those good transit city,

right and outside of like the top five markets, a nobody it all takes mass transit. It was impossible for a member to be bad for mass transit usage in Dallas because nobody takes mass transit that right and then the taxi market. New York is also really unique, because in New York has so many non car owners. It is so many regular subway writers. It has elites in the core tons of calves driving around, but in like Real America, so to speak, including large swathes of fake America. That's just not the dynamic at all to me that the finding here, just like an alternative to conventional transportation systems for the ninety five percent of the country, that isn't it City is meaningful, is different from the New York City. Experience is important, for everyone in the takes industry to Savage AIDS is its fine. I'm in New York is, in fact a really big city, but it's like

Am I writing a story about transportation policy in the largest densest? Must transit dependent city in the country or my writing, a sort of transportation in the United States of America yeah wondering that's interesting attempts to me as someone from non transit using non cab using part of the country. I grew up in Kansas City. The four thousand, a cab I was a tourist and easy like is it- is reveal that there is huge outside of these that ITALY some demand for like a way of getting round. That is not putting yourself in your own car abusing Mubarak

Moyne abuse it and Cedar rapids like I've used it places, it never would occur to me to take a cab level on public debt, and I would say you surely my experience of visiting LOS Angeles, where I've been a bunch, because my father has been sporadically working there for a few years now, and also its. If it's a big city is it used to be to still be a nightmare to go visit there and now, just because of goober it's kind of nice. If you moved to allay, obviously I would buy a car and I would probably be driving around everywhere, but from the standpoint of visiting it's like you can get a ride with your friend of your data, whoever your visiting but then also, if you just happened, need to go somewhere like you get Neuber, whereas the taxis there used to be horrible because taxes are horrible everywhere in showing a man. I want your answer since you think a lot about urban policy to my question. Like can taxis like do this, What do you think stops them? What they see, what we're doing their technologies looks very out there

the limit their like. What can they do? Can they can be, I think, is that the fair taxi fair regulation is very, very crude and most cities is like a lobbying process and a little bit of a regulatory process, but in amounts to a bunch of people just sort of guessing what would be in their interests to charge an, but what their interest is exactly gets. A little high easy and and difficult, and it's always inflexible. So one of the main things that goober does it serve, upsets people, but it's definitely in fitting with cold economic logic. Is they set the base? Fair super duper super duper low and then they move up to multiples of it when you no more people want to do it and they have a model where you're very little fixed costs to become maneuver driver. You need to pass their task. You need to have a car, but most people have a car, so in effect the cost zero wears a closer getting out fitted with attacks

is normally high read like you need a medallion in most places, even if you don't like DC, had a non medallion system, but you have to like paint your car like this is by taxi ridden and have the thing up, that's very challenging. It would be interesting to look at goobers experience, specifically in Stockholm, because that's the major city that I'm aware of that did not have taxi fair regulations ride. So if you go to Stockholm, Gaed there's a few big cab companies which are a major change and they have published fair rates, but they differ from to another and also you can operate a cab. You know you didn't it's got to be. You need some kind of license. I think it's like painted, you can tell, is a taurus like a hot. This is a taxi, but you hail a cab and then they ask you where you want to go and then they will sort of proposed affair, and I think if you actually live there, you know what a fair

would be and can bargain effectively. If you're tourist you get ripped off that Central America tends to work and makes this isn't whenever a traveller Central America its exact same yet my cab sets, I mean it's an is an engine for wondering, is interesting, because Sweden is the only place that has a free market in taxi Farragut. and also its strange, because as it as a customer, it's terrible think about it. It's like girl! Why should swedish policy make it difficult for cabdriver? So after our swedish people to rip off shore, whoever or not swedish, because if you actually live there, it's fine right, like I had the experience of bargaining with cabdriver is getting ripped off, but I'm sure an actual resident Stockholm, but does not do that. I wonder because they have that kind of flexibility, at least some aspect

a bit, but I do think that you know we were primarily shows that it is easier in a lot of circumstances to start from scratch right and just say: ok, how should this market work and just go? Do it, ran them that people are like. Ok, what could have been the one thing tat is made of going in their advantages like an appearance of regulation like appearance of safety that, like I know, some Deasey government somewhere as like supposed keeping an eye on it please they have like a number. I can call if, like something goes wrong and that people are willing to kind of trade off that No I've not investigated DC taxis own if this is true or just a veneer, but if you are willing to trade off that appearance, at least of safety, for cheaper, less regulated way to get around town with some person news like pass some tests, but like the has not gone through whatever deasey system,

where's. My like the speed with which you were normalized, like you just get, this strange requires fine, I think stunning, and when I think about it, I once been a day in New York Taxi Court, which is as our partner regions like where people come with their complaints about the horrible things there cabdriver did them and try to get some kind of litigation. It is not likely This doesn't that I would recommend heads efficiency of protecting customers, but it with super fascinating, and there really is like the pair, with every message you like email, the company in and trust that they will like eventually resolve it, frankly like based on communications. I've had with them for me has been more efficient than like complaining. I was reporting by the way, did not have a taxi complain going to taxi horror. Tat would be yeah. I mean you know one thing in terms of redress right. Is you see the difference between a commercial process and a bureaucratic process where you know Ober may not care that you ve been mistreated outlined, but it's some level they like any company, there's some.

Level of customer dissatisfaction in which their like okay, this is actually unacceptable. We're gonna lose business. We need to do something where's the taxi core process It doesn't matter to them at all if they resolve your complaint in a correct way. Right I mean it's: does a government agency that it doesn't have customers? It doesn't care for if you come away happy, so it's like goobers, like a like a bad system by the regulatory system, seem seems worse. The other thing is that, in terms of outlier outcomes, even to a regulated taxi, if the guy drowsy off into you know some How someplace in kills you no one's ever get it now with the Ober its registered with the company. You pick this guy up like a pretty girl right, and so I have always felt safer in that regard. With a thing where I know that people are connected via the cloud to some kind of an accountable institution,

but on the same side they also so much information about jail where you live there. It was that thing with. I goober talking but maybe like getting back at journalists by the using the information that they have there's another side of that that, like they, have a lot of more information on their customers that your taxi driver- you we're knows more about me then like by creating much any company, including Amazon. I would say over definitely those things about me that late, coworkers and friends do not know why? Don't you ever gonna be Google natural for us to show you a terrifying messages. I think that's one welcome right in which the internet works right. It's like the Google pen. The con almost like normalizes anything because compared to like, or they can just read all my email ever and also everything. I've ever read just like that. it's gotta go. What am I supposed to care about privacy after that law, No way no anywhere, not tracking r r listeners? We are what are now we'll find out

another untasted absurd of leaves boxes, policy par, Caslon, patently network. Thank you for it. For listening, thanks to two would be for for gas toasting picture producer is involved as thanks to our sponsors and looking back next week.