« The Weeds

The fall of Katie Hill


Jane, Dara, and Matt on the California representative’s resignation, power imbalances, and the problem of “revenge porn.”

Relevant links:

"Revenge porn, biphobia, and alleged relationships with staffers: The complicated story around Rep. Katie Hill, explained" by Anna North, Vox

"The Trauma of Revenge Porn" by Rebekah Wells, NYT

White paper


Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox

Jane Coaston (@cjane87), Senior politics reporter, Vox

Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica

More to explore:

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Support for this episode country Clicker lose an average of three hours every day, switching between all our work apps, but you can get them back with click on a flexible platform that brings all your central tools in one place: legal prioritize tasks, collaborate on dogs, chat with your team and track coms. It's. Why? Companies like Hoover and website use click up is that Mission Control Centre, placing every other aptly we're using before up even guarantees to help you save one day a week and get more done. It's completely customizable and it's free forever to dry click up today. It click up that calm, slash weeds Yeah this is Marquez Brownie, acre amicably hd, and this is Andrew Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, formed the newest addition to the Vocs media podcast network, so I've spent over ten years, reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people on the empty. to channel and now on the way forward.
Ass Andrew and I use that experience to dig even deeper into latest tech for smartphones too. I max to electric cars. So if you're gadget lover or attack head or if you just want to figure out whether the latest gadget is worth your harder in cash, give us a lesson say can find way form the empty beefy pie cast on your favorite Pakistan every Friday see over there. We up on redid hung up. While this is going to be a great time gas we did hung low welcomes another episode of the recently vocs media pack has network. I met we place. He is here with proper because there are lined Jane Coastal joining us from Chicago Elena. we wanted to talk about Representative Katy Hill sort of the the other scandal that is
I think Washington. I understand that this is not the most characteristic moved the weeds, as ever pulled say. Let's give it away from serious issues, of national Security line congressional procedure to talk about what could be described. sex scandal, but it has, I would say, more broad relevance yet as this this Trump Ukraine thing I think, will probably not recur, whereas representative hills situation, raises a lot of questions that I think are dealt with all the time and I'll be on a continuing basis. So for those who who don't know this story, he held a young first year member of Congress. She beat a public in in twenty a tea, and this was one of the is like California, suburban seeds that had swung can hard for Mitt Romney to Hillary Clinton. The republican incumbent got we elected and twenty sixteen than she beat him she's, I think thirty thirty, three years old, sunlight that but one of the youngest members of Congress.
As you know, was like up an interesting rising star and in that sense, had been in not just a rise in starting point in the sense that, like a lot of freshmen members of Congress, and a lot of media attention, because there are kind of a younger generation in various evian things, but like house leadership had actually ailing appointed hurt to a position in the Caucasus, rising, is one of the official freshmen Guenaud delegates. I'm so Madame media star in the sense of of of the squad people, but that the next generation of like mainstream Democrats and then it all started to unravel as red state began, publishing stories that she had had an affair with a staff her that she and her husband had had a threesome with the staff for its more complicated
because they were apparently engaged in a Polly, amorous relationship that the husband was aware of the like. As far as we know, and it it's complicated, because there are a lot of pieces to the story and there have been kind of the the way that conservatives have interpreted. It was like this is a clear cut case of someone misusing their power over a subordinate or or perhaps to subordinates, and then from people look more liberal perspectives is Yes, that was bad, but also the publication of photographs of her that were clearly weaponized to be the most embarrassing it, especially in a political context, the most embarrassing photographs possible and the fact that there were allegedly at least seven hundred photos given to GOP operatives in California. The fact that a lot of the photos now it it's important, because I I keep getting this confused when trying to track the story, is that there
is a campaign staffer with whom Hale was apparently in engaged in a relationship also with her husband, who in the NBA has acknowledged and said like it was inappropriate. Yes, you know I'd take responsibility for it right. Then there is a hillside, male legislative directorate, Graham Kelly, who is who read state reported on October rate, teeth and the story white for two red state, bright bar. I California based conservative website and eventually to the daily mail and when it goes daily mail, that's one thing got pretty blown up, but he'll has denied having a relationship with the legislative director and, interestingly to me is that all of the photographs and everything about this was all focused on the female,
campaigns staffer with whom the relationship would be a very bad idea, but would not technically brick house rules. Apparently, she went on to work on it with her in office, which would also be a bad idea, but a lot of this seem to be weapon. I using one Hill Hill is bisexual. She's talked a lot about that and it seemed to be weapon that which is actually something that Representative Matt Gates picked up on. Who has actually been one of the most outspoken advocates for hill and saying that this is all happening because of an acrimonious divorced from hills, husband and because Katy Hills different, because she's queer by there a lot of different moving? parts. This story, DORA, I heard you taken intake of you. I mean there is a lake. The question of the how the kind of house ethics rules is a very, very relevant one here, right,
and it's not my understanding is that it's not quite as clear cut as as long as it's just a campaign, staffer she's in the clear lake was not explicitly against house ethics rules for a member of it for us to have a relationship with the essential relationship with a staff or until last year. You know there is that that death, Italy is explicitly beyond the pale. However, the House ethics many has also kind of established that it does have jurisdiction over. Gillette that's violations in successful congressional campaigns, so whether this particular thing would rise to the level of you're going to be sanctioned because of behaviour that happened before you arrived in. The house is kind of India specific case not bricklayer, but it's not it's not We are cut, as she's admitted, to the thing that couldn't get her kicked error that they couldn't get her sanctioned, and you know they're there. We also don't know what the house at its investigation, would have found because was obviously like still ongoing.
I'm sure resigned. Now it's going to shut down because she's resigned and its mood, it is, I think, interest that there is kind of a split between the relationship we have pictures for in their early. I should point out the alley: alleged relationship. We don't, relationship is admitting to in the relationships is denying or the electoral lists, gypsies, nine rather and lake. The fact that the photos are in the context of explicit photo Two women in work might have been a situation where they were taken by a man, whereas v like clear, cut ethics violation, if it existed, would be a heterosexual relationship and I'd. I also want to add in that, and we will talk more about the revenge poor. An angle though I really hate that term, because it's it's a term we use, because I think that the the listener will can know what we're talking about. But I don't like it and if people of other suggestions I wanna hear about them,
There are attorneys for former Representative Hill who are now getting involved. She has a legal team of Mark Liason, Rachel Jacobs from the firm Perkins, Coy who you may have heard of, and they they sent a cease and desist daily mail. They ve sent letters to other publications special, because the daily mail implied that she had a nazi tattoo based on some of the photographs, because again this is the daily mail. This is kind of what they do. So I think that there are a lot of different and moving pieces through this story. My First reaction, when I saw the windward when these allegations came up was too just purely take hills, side of it, and you know almost in a spirit of flagging out like you go girl, like you know that did this stuff has been going on for for a long time and and sort of who cares- and you know I I talk to some people, and they sort of talk me out of that position is in fact like bad to be doing that
members of Congress should not be having relationships with their staffers. It's a very vulnerable position. do you know the unusual gender dynamic here is interesting as it some plot, but dozen fundamentally change the issue, and also that you know, I mean a reaction that I've I've seen from a lot of people on Twitter is like a high like this the double standard, a woman is being punished for something we know. Male members of Congress have done a lot over the years, which is absolutely true, but I do think its relevant that the house, like literally adopted new rules about this Last year, right and at the time those rules were being adopted, I think most people thought that was a good chain tried. There was a collective statement on the part of the house who are presented. Is that a form of behaviour that it was known had been going on? And that had like was bad? I should stop and when you change the rules like they're, there has to be a first case of enforcing,
Rules and like yes, like it sucks to be the person who is subjected to the new harsher rules when other people have got away with it, but, like that's, that's what changing the rules mean and you know on that level like that. That is good to see, and it establishes precedent that hopefully will be of some use in the future. That said, like the aspect of this that has do with the photos and stuff is, is terrible. Also, I don't it does seem like a bit of a red herring like the misconduct here is real ran, genuinely not sure that that I mean I that in order to know that for sure we would have to run the counterfactual where the photos don't come out and see if she still ends up resigning and if not rapidly and ethics investigation sets, I think, its relevant that she doesn't design when the investigation gets open. She resigns after the photos, come out and like that's relevant both because
she was not taking energetic putting her head down and going home. She resigned with a very clear statement that what had happened to her in of the fellow is being publicized was a miscarriage of justice and she said that she is going to continue to work on. You know this issue, like quoting cool revenge, poor nonconventional intimate photo sharing, which is really unfortunate, acronym now that I think about it. So you can kind of you know it did give her if not it like not not an out, but certainly a way to resign without Looking like, she was accepting that she had done things wrong. I warn you only not sure that you that she would have resigned of the photos. Hadn't league just. but I've seen enough cases where, having visual evidence gives a story legs and gives people
you know, makes it no longer a. He said she said kind of thing makes people feel that there is in fact quota quote proof that one party is in the right in the other parties in the wrong, and that's where I get a little bit into like it's, not that I think it's obvious. there are male members of Congress who have done identical things and haven't been punished under these new rules. I do, however, think it's interesting that the first time that this comes up in such a way that house ethics has to engage is in the context, of an acrimonious divorce with a partner who Hail says was abusive and lake. We don't have of details on that, that's not to say that she's obligated to provide them. Certainly the fact that their it seems very you very plausible and more likely than not that hills husband was in solved in the leaking of the photos, is suggestive evidence that he may not have her best interests at heart right now, to say the least,
and I do wonder if that part of the story plays out exact same way. If it's a male member of Congress, I think that there is an opportunity to play into de as of women and specific bisexual women in positions of power being you know, being meant sexually manipulative and sexually promiscuous. That made it obvious that photos like this would hurt Kitty Hill in a way that maybe they wouldn't hurt a male member well and especially again that the photos are of the female partner, not the alleged male partner, and if, like the entire thing about this- and you can, we could get into like you with the fact that these photos, where these photos, once these photos, did not go to the New York Times. They also did not go to democratic operatives in California, where your hypothetically, it could have been something like they talk to Katy Hell, Katy, Hell resigns four person
reasons, and then they have a special election at some point. That's not what happened here, also hills. Now. This strange husband has been going on a press tour of sorts talking to the nearest post about how Katy Hill wanted him to do all the dishes which, like yeah sure, do some dishes, but like ethic that this very much I've haze, Brown Buzzfeed He made the point that this is in a weird way, perhaps like the first millennium congressional sex scandal, because it involves like a u a queer woman who is in a relationship that is when you talk to. I was reading an article from a kind of a right leading site that was talking about
servitors view. Polly Emory is kind of like the fourth horsemen of the apocalypse, and just as idea thy great legless threatening sexual relationship red state recently described as a threshold, which is a really odd word, though it perhaps is accurate. I dont, like I'm, not lying idle words today, but like this entire thing, just seasick such a interesting test of this particular the Old House House, ethics understanding, but, on the other hand you I think that it is worth saying that you, I did a lot of work kind of as the meeting movement hit Congress on your how people were getting paid off, essentially Oreo, how the judgment fund was being used to pay people off or your pay off, staffers who'd been sexually harassed or in sexual relationships with people to whom they were subordinate and its. There is a way to say that
this. Entire story includes a lot of different pieces and Katy held, did something bad and also something bad happened to Katy Hill. All of that can be true at once. The Louis you take a break, but I definitely I do think we should, like. I don't mean to give short shrift TED to Maths, concerns about the power dynamic here. I think we re into the more we live with a lot of noise between the pay things the dings. The emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero on the things that really matter just like. We can train our bodies to be better running faster or lifting her, we can train our minds to stay focused to all the noise. We live with step, one download head space its basis and have loaded with guiding meditations designed offer a daily dose mindfulness concessions for every situation like a three minute s away: meditation when you're overwhelmed by the day and even meditations. You could do it. You, kids, when you're all of run by the day had space has been like a really cool,
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I started to see a little bit of a left labour critique of the kind of reflexive kind of algae, BT rights, defence of Katy, which has been that, like that, you know what Matt said earlier that lake, if you're on the side of the subordinate you know and you worry about Workplace Day it's being used for sexual harassment, like that holds regard. Of gender and you need to assume you know if you're going to have the principle that you did, the subordinate is to be protected from any kind of like sexual come on then you than that has to be consistent, and so I do think that, like the extent to which we're talking about. As a consensual relationship has to be shaded by that other factor here, and this is where it gets really really hard. You know what is legit,
what is in you endo? What is self that, like, maybe, would have come up in the house at its investigation, but we're not gonna have that is like there are these allegations that the campaign staffer was abused in the relationship and our text messages, presumably to Hills Ex husband that have been leaked. If said, you know, I was in it, it was a dark times. I stayed- and I blame myself for that- not a great look and something that definitely does play in the idea that the power dynamic in the workplace was affecting this in the course of way but it's also it's really hard for me to extricate that from the idea that, regardless of what hill was in her work place, it is also possible that she was in a an abusive marriage and that, if that shades into
the work place. I am not sure that it is easy to say that hill was the person with power here, yes, I mean look too, I think there's a desire sense in which that's true and also you know, look if you hear any stories about congressional campaigns. It's like not unusual for the candidates spouse to be both a crucial actor in the campaign and also not have a formal role there. You know, but so ever I just think fundamentally right you have a candidate she's running for office. You got people who are like they. They look up to her. They they one word for her there and a helper when right and not just like, they have to believe that she is a good and worthwhile person in order to put in the unseen ours that campaign work and its a devotion right like it's. A cause and an appalling- and I think it is like a bee- it's not new to the world, but it is an abuse of the kind of trust that people put in the candidates that they that they
work for weather, that's hill, doing it, whether it this is an abusive husband manipulating all the relevant players. You know it's like it still, it still bad, but I think we should. We should talk about the husband. We should talk about that. The topic of Quantum quote revenge point: this is actually a new term to me really mad aunt Jane and I are both the veterans of several waves of state laws. Attempting to criminalize this followed by hot legal, takes that, like a lot of behaviour that state legislatures try to criminalize tardy illegal yeah, so I have used Google and I've seen that this dispute has been Looking around state law for a while, the basin, idea of revenge porn is that people in- relationships have naked pictures of each other and then after they break up, you can maliciously leak them. like us, that the gets that is that is generally, ah I mean, or
so thoroughly in relationships this this often, you know this is kind of a close cousin to a what is if you believe the media and I dont, have regular contact with high schoolers. So how would I know? Otherwise a very common form of online cyber building of high school students is like a you know, you ask someone who you believed to be interested in you to send you intimate pictures and then you'll like share them around the rewrite the kind of their revenge porn as its become thought of in kind of the criminal content, a well the context in which its, the thought of when states are passing laws criminalizing it isn't that kind of fish in your old boy sends picture of fourteen year old girls, all his friends. It's it's your sites that it on which like lovers who feel wronged can post all of these photos of their areas with identifying information, and there are habitually of these sites who appear to be very dedicated to then tracking people down in other contacts, and you know
sure those photos follow them. That is a much clearly malicious aspect. However, the kind of balance in I'm in a law between, if you don't write, a criminal statute treats that differently from the sending a few texts around to your friends and you kind of set the criminal penalty at such a level that it's not obviously too strict. For, though the lesser offence. It's obviously not strict enough for be greater offence and vice versa, and so we ve kind of hit a point we're like in California, for example, yeah, non consensual, sharing of intimate photos is a it's a misdemeanour, but it's only a misdemeanor, and so there are arguments from kind of anti sexual harassment advocates that it is not strict enough while at the same time, keep seeing these stories of people getting convicted of like sex trafficking or whatever for do things that are obviously less malicious in nature, Kitty Hill, it is represented,
California and in California and twenty eighteen, a former law student one, a six point: four: five million dollar judgment against an ex boyfriend. Who did this? He sent links of her to her mother. He posted them on Tumblr, Okcupid and a bunch of other websites and also distributed the plaintiffs home address around, and this is something that I found a couple of examples in which their websites, in which people were sharing photographs of their ex girlfriend, with the explicit purpose of embarrassing, Lamb and YO that were leading to people, you face a real danger and one of the biggest challenges for women. It's generally women who deal this though men have had to endure. This also is that the police had no idea what to do with it there. There is no at times peace from earlier this year, from a woman who was among the first to file asked for this, and when she filed a police report, the deputy YO involved,
close the case and asked her out, so you this is something I think that this is another example of the big where what's taking place and where the law and specifically law enforcement are on our way. Far apart, and so your representative, Jackie Spear, whose in a real leader on sexual harassment in Congress. She was one of the people who is filing you, who is working on legislation with Republicans also last year to deal with the issue of harassment on in on the hill, especially of in turns and pages and also, but she introduced a federal build that would criminalize revenge for, but again it does get into the EU its very difficult, as DORA put it to write a law that is like ok, fourteen year old texting fifteen year old, that's not gonna, send you to prison, but forty five year old, sharing photos to millions of people in order to embarrass and potentially no fish
clay harm and acts or someone they perceive as next. You could go to prison like it's a really challenging needle the threat, so to speak. I wouldn't think there's also, especially for people who may been committed relationships since before easy, taking of lake high quality was on your phone became a thing like there is something of a giant national split here, where leg sending in It photos is just like a and accepted it this among people who are. Among many younger people in a way does not have many older people write that just like. I do not have fallen data on this. It is a generation put them straight up going to assert, maybe in it if someone has like actual data, can prove me wrong. That's great, but I think a lot of these things come into the public. I went is a scandal involving a politician. There is often a kind of
calibration of like how much should we be expecting any given innocent person who hadn't done anything wrong to have evidence like this? Rightly? Is there an extent to which you should you just should be allowing people to take naked photos of you because they could be used against you. Isn't that just common sense- and you know in there is definitely an instinct against victim blaming, but at the same time I am the kind of really is hard to say like not. It's not very easy to know. Quite yet why accepted practices are like? Are we in a place where then existing kind of cloud, storage and sharing of files. In that kind of thing, it would be easy to make sure that deep, that each party and a relationship has control over that like there are definite questions here in terms of just hope, will use and share intimate photos that make it so that its the hard to say does every member of Congress, who is forty five or
hunger have something that could be used against them, or is this really saying that is specific to lake. weird, MRS, that already exist in this relationship, which brings us back to the question of. Is she being pathology, Ized B, of her sexual orientation and be you know, relationship practice that she and her husband were engaged in twenty two. I also I wanted it just be very clear here that I think one of the things that I quote unquote: revenge for its not just like sending photos to someone and invasion them with other things like that a lot of times. There is a reason why a lot of people have started putting little things over their computer cameras, because there have been examples of people. Men using those computer cameras are taking over from other, Peter are other computer networks to take pictures re Eleanor even mind like that? Yes, we have a God given the right to take self is of ourselves to make sure we look. Cute and ice
just being able to do that, and especially having control of your own images on your own phone or on your own cloud? I think of that stuff that you I have seen a little bit of like no, you could only be taking naked pictures of yourself if you're meaning to do something sketchy them like at you If you're in a big come out like it's not a wildly libertarian perspective to say you can take pictures of yourself or in the context of relationship or not a relationship and not expect that those voters will be used against you in some sort of public forum? But I think we We should draw a distinction rikers, because Jane mentioned that there's a lot of like mischief that can be done now, There are simply more recording devices in the world trade, but also, I think, there's always been a firm like social concerns swayed that, like hiding in illicit camera in a hotel room, taking pictures of somebody unawares and then distributing them that, like that is wrong,
the harshest prosecutions on this stuff have been on the computer, fraud and lake in anti hacking laws, because both because those are where a strict criminal penalties, or else, because that's a clear cut case of you, weren't even supposed to have access. To the rise of obvious, like what the right like behaviour well. What would the desire to behaviour outcome is is like for people to not hijack other people's cameras? Do not conceal recording devices to not have security personnel at hotels misappropriating that those resources I mean it's difficult in practice, but, like those are issues that are fairly clear, cut right. The harder question right is in a world where everybody is carrying cameras around in their pockets all the time, and so people take a lot of photos of all kinds of things and where does become free, essentially to distribute photos? Is it there's a clash,
between this a good common sense view that, like you, have moral ownership rights over images of yourself and there's like the practical and legal reality that is actually the person who takes the picture. Who has legal rights over and in the digital age, just whoever happens to have a copy of the picture, has practical control over it right and like that's the problem right, like technologically What were we would want is for some way that, like with your brain, raise, you could capture all pictures of yourself that are like out there somewhere and and eliminate the give you wanted to ride because you didn't like the picture or because the contacts the interpersonal dynamic between you and whoever has them has changed, or it was sent to somebody. You didn't want to have it right, but there's no way to do that, like you were not actually link until you haven't written facial recognition technology
well, I'm a bit but it, but that would be a huge shift in like copyright law. You know so the the lake you know intimate nature or corn quote torn aspect of it like kicks it into a different conceptual category, four for a lot of people for obvious reasons, right but he's just like the basic like like the way image rights work. Is that like? If I take a picture of you, that's my picture, it's not your picture and I think there's something a little like off about that like in politeness terms. If I take a picture of some in their like. No no don't posts that, like I wouldn't do it, because I'm not an asshole, but there is no way to stop right and like that sort of the animals? They that's the problem. Here but it's like the underlying dynamic, that's hard to solve. We have a world where we want people to be able to take lots of pictures to share them easily like it's a its outside the revenge porn context like it's great, everyone's havin fun, all the time taking sharing
when this turns into their revenge for conduct. You know I do the decision to then like publish those photos esp, especially if it's a site that is dedicated to like clearing houses of these. There is a certain circulating right. The reason that you do this is to damage the life of person who's the subject of the photos it very hard to imagine that whoever leaked those of Katy held, didn't do it with the understanding that it was going to make it harder for her to remain in Congress, but it only has that power because of social sanction, rightly the House Ethics Committee wasn't going to investigate whether that was Katy Hill in those photos the reason that that had that powers, because it seen you know it's again, as I said earlier, is like visual evidence that makes it seem like one party is in the wrong. So in theory, if you take the it
you're standing that, like a lot of people, have these photos out there and the fact that someone could then publish it is a reflection of the ethics of the publisher, not of the conduct of the person whose in the photo like you, could see kind of a deliberate desire to kind of ratchet that down right. But that would require not just kind of people talking less harshly about. where's of Congress, but also like in cases where the picture is being sent to your mother or Facebook. Friends are saying hey. I this person message me these. These crows photos of you in quite a lot of people being willing to deal with stuff in basic interpersonal dynamics that lake, if you're, not used to seeing someone make, it can be a very varied. The deal at so you know, I think that there often when this sort of thing comes up or lake evidence of you youthful misconduct after it on social media. I often one
Where is this going to be a thing? Twenty years from now like? Will you still be able to shame someone into resigning by posting nude photos of them are: will it still really just kind of be a soon feel like? Yes, that's the thing that people have on each other, but I'm not sure this norm is going to change on its own. I think there are a lot of much more complicated small scale, private citizen ratings that need to change before we can start holding public figures to like the kind of level of whatever of private citizens. I think also. This is going to be an ongoing challenge, because I remember thinking that Europe, one of the funniest things about you, I'm thirty, two I one of my most cherished random memories- is like the ear like my senior year of college right, noticed everyone from high school suddenly deleting dressed wave of photographs because everyone or allies like oh, we have to go, get jobs now, and so suddenly, the picture of you like chugging Schmidt off, while wearing a catholic
we'll girls uniform as like, we should probably take that went out, and so people like changing the name is that they used on Facebook so that they couldn't be found from other people's photographs, and I remember thinking to myself, like there's gonna, be a time when we are hit the age if you're. Obviously, you can run for Congress at a different age and then you can run for president, but like the age at which people are going to start to run for office and everyone's fit, you everyone, I kind of a thought that it would be this kind of mutually assured destruction that, because we all had photographs or something of us doing something of us. I don't know, shot gutting a beer or smoking a bomb or doing something that we'd all kind of be like. Ok, if you were photograph doing this, you so was person who is yelling at you a bit about being photograph doing this arrogant, we can't yell at each other. Apparently, I'm just really optimistic at the time, because I do think, though, that there is going to need to be
on a personal level, and perhaps you cross generational level a conversation about the fact that look like we are entering an age in which we are perhaps the most photographed generation to have ever existed. You it's funny because I was thinking I was watching a documentary recently where there is talk about you up until, like the other nineteen thirty nineteen, forty people would not be photograph doing
everyday things. And now we have you. I have thousands of pictures on my phone over just like various events or meals or like this tree looked nice that day, and so I think that there is going to need to be kind of a coming to terms with the fact of we're all incredibly engaged in images and specifically images of ourselves and other people around us. And that's going to you. We are starting to see how that's going to change, how we think about what constitutes a scandal or what can be used against other people, especially because all of us have these. In some senses end for ill, I ve gotten really tired of the like, we'll just don't take these yours, I'm! No. The question is not don't do this, it is don't use these against people for political purposes. I think what I learned from the last lake decade, as you know, the I've I've also come to a kind of the come away from mutually assured destruction view, but I I think that what we
learned is that norms don't change on their own either like this can be the beginning, a conversation about like what exactly is an appropriate thing, too someone for, or We're going to continue having this conversation for lake ages in ages, natures, only it's going to be like I don't know holograms. What's next thing you ever and telegrams event Chaldeans? What the common after you? Evidently we talk about deep fakes. There's a great today explained upset Andy. Deep fakes will put it mission. that's good, let's. What's he gonna break? Let's get back to dull healthcare, white papers, mortality, YO, r origins,. If you like. Basically anyone listening to this right now, I'm willing to bet that you are you're dealing with stress can visit of it like an overwhelming amount, or maybe it's more like a low but steady, drumbeat background stress. Remember how you are experiencing stress. It's likely effect
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paid under the affordable care AG versus states. That did not expand Medicaid under the affordable care act. They are combining survey dead, add to see who got into Medicaid with administrative data that gives them more tally records and they are looking at people aged fifty five to sixty four, which is to say old people who don't have many care, see. What's going on cause, all people are more likely to die. I guess that drain. The logic of this is basically, if you want to look at the effect of medicate expansion, because, obviously It expansion, wasn't, ITALY is kind of an accidental, we'll experiment right insofar as it was supposed to be nationwide, and then the Supreme Court said you can opt out so are now like. There's this very easy thing: you!
Do where you can look at states where they didn't expand, Medicatrix estates were they did, but the authors of this paper, taking the view that, if you just look globally at the entire population of these states, you're going to understate be effective, medicate expansion, because only a small percentage of these people are kind of on the margin right like there we can predict the people who live, who have incomes under a certain percentage, the federal poverty line are probably if they live in a medicate expansionist state. Going to get me, It's going to get expended, Medicaid worth, whereas if they dont they're, not in or if they don't have a certain educational attainment, then they're probably likely to fall into that income bracket. This, assert. The study is kind of isolating the group most likely to benefit, and then what are the effects of that group? Yes m?
are finding that there is a significant decrease in mortality in expansion states and that they say about. Fifteen thousand. Six hundred extra people have died per year due to a lack of medicate expansion, primarily in texts in Florida, but other states with with fewer people. So, that's, that's, that's it s like to visit this, isn't just like mortality, they actually isolate dislike disease debts and there isn't a huge difference in like debts by car accidents or other things where having healthcare or not, is not going to be the primary determinative actor in whether you succeed. So it is pretty suggestive evidence that this isn't just because like there, fear people or they have other things that in their states that are better it's that this in particular, is what's causing people to live longer in medicate expansion states. Something I also thought
Interesting was the age range they used, which was based on the reading was about like fifty five to sixty four, and especially because I think that that's also hopeful, because once you get a slightly over that age, cohort death is slightly more inevitable at I say, but I think Europe this coming for us, I mean it is. It is this stocking horse of our mortal coil yo? I thought that was put a particularly interesting choice, because that is something for which, if you are healthy, you will live. If you are not healthy or do not have access to health care, you may not live, and I thought that was an interesting way of doing it, where you can, She really need. This is not just dying by old age. This is about specifically as DARPA about Disease. I do want to talk a little bit about the methodology existing man made a joke about. In a survey plus administrative data, but like what's up
going on here is they took data from the american community survey, which is the thing that used to be known as the long form senses the more frequent more comprehensive data survey product that the senses puts out and linked to other sense, record so that the agency s was giving them. The information on you know isolating this popular. Who was most likely to benefit, and then these other records, this other database was giving them in and on whether they in over into live or not. It's fast needs to me to see this kind of obvious linkage between census databases in this particular moment in time, because now, in the wake of the Supreme Court decision, that the trumpet ministration couldn't enow, add a question about citizenship, senses. The senses bureau has been directed to find ways to make it possible to identify who is a citizen incenses data through other means, which has raised a lot of concerns among progressives about kind of deal
privacy and security and not being able to link databases that could be used to identify people for it potentially malicious ends, but database linkage now, as has historically been used as a research tool in there You are good questions I think about whether the potential for misused by the government, is something that really needs to be steered away from, or whether studies like this that literally couldn't happen under really really strict privacy regime, is that didn't give people access to interoperable records individually linked interoperable records, whether you know that's kind of worth the risk in theory that something could We use in a malicious manner down the road I mean this is obviously not the core of the immigration policy dispute in the United States.
but like it's, it's an example of how harmful it is to just have this like settled reasonably well integrated population of millions of people without legal status, fried because it then turns all kinds of questions about other things into a sort of back door. How are you you handling that right? If you have a solution through the front door like, then you can have administrative records, that that work fine, you know I. I wasn't one thing about this study because there's been a ton of attention paid so far to the twenty twenty presidential action, but this is still the year twenty nineteen- and there are elections happening next week in Kentucky Louisiana and Miss city and in Louisiana. If the democratic governor loses its very likely that the state will roll back medicate expansion somewhat at the key Did it at the republican nominee there has, but what he said
he's gonna do is thing that I'm pretty sure you can't do, which is let the people who are already on Medicaid, keep it but freeze new enrollment, but anyway he's he's hostile. He sceptical in Kentucky. If the republican governor loses. The Democrat is going to sort of rollback, some very harsh administrative burdens that Republicans a poem more more people get Medicaid in Mississippi. It looks like a real long shot, but the attorney General Mississippi is a Democrat and so he's a is a strong candidate he's a few points behind in the polls if he wins that will bring medicate expansion to one of the poorest states and peoples less intellectually morally, I invested in these state level. Medicate expanding controversies, but, like the point of this paper, is that the stakes of that are quite big.
you know, eat fifty dollars involved a relatively small. The changes you need to make to give people lifesaving medical care are relatively small, but it makes a big difference in people's lives. So I would encourage everyone to pay attention to their state. Medicate politics, I agree Yanza yet well I mean I don't think anyone who is the listener of the weeds and lives in a state that has elections in next weekend. While I would that none of you needed to be reminded that I owe you shared. You should go read up on some things, gather so ok we bring it, bring it to a stop there. I'm thanks guys thanks as always to our sponsors. Thanks to our engineer today, Mark I protest and to our producers, Jackson, Beer felt and the weeds we'll be back. I'm frightened, accessible, affordable broadband helps communion
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.