« The Weeds

The stupidest fucking idea I’ve ever heard

2018-02-23

There are also some good ideas discussed. All of them are about guns. German Lopez joins Dara and Matt to talk about gun control in the wake of the Parkland shooting.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Play Weezer's going to be in Austin for South by southwest, if so, I'd love to invite you to join me for a live taping of Uso, Concho I'll, be at the deep end by VOX media. On Sunday March, 11th at three hundred and thirty talk to Gates CO, chair of the bill, Melinda Gates Foundation, we're going to be talking about the work they do about the state of public health worldwide about what isn't getting better in the world. I M very excited others conversation that, though the work they do is important and it is controversial and it is interesting and it is making a long life better and there's a lot around that to begin to. So I think I think I can be a very good this out and you should come see it. The deep ended by box media. We are taken over the Belmont Fray three day, then itself by southwest again that, as from March nine Marquis love and it isn't just made can get life podcast for many vocs. Media Pike S network favorites, including care switches, record decode, the virtues verge, cast But again you can join me for live taping, guitar concho on Sunday March 11th at three hundred and thirty, for a conversation, Belinda Gates to request an invitation, go to box mediacom
Essex S, W dash twenty eighteen again, that is vocs me. the calm, Slash, Ex as w dash twenty eighteen. I know super memorable, but again, ESA clicks, W dashed twenty eighteen and I'm looking or to seeing you they're arming teachers, that's one of the stupidest honestly, like you, just imagine just proposing that through just a person in France, they would look at you like you're having a nervous but A person who works in the school have striven to if you don't have to go outside the country. Welcome to another. So did the weeds on the box media package network of Matthew Glaziers here today, with their Lynn, remind Lopez we mentioned
with Ezra. Sarah early department started shooting, but I think we really wanted to sort of delve into that and into the guns topic here come on knows a lot about the stair knows more than than I do say I sort of when we were thinking about this a couple days ago. I've really like wanted to do like a measured take on this, because I think progressive people actually get a fair amount wrong about this issue. But then Donald Trump kind of wandered into the room with privacy is like the stupidest fucking idea her that we need to pay bonuses to locate it will not even the stupidest idea, Donald Trump had this week. It wasn't even the stupid to stay here. Donald Trump had fairies day. Let's be honest, what we're gonna do anything tremendously stupid idea. I just we have to understand that when the upside down- ok- but
I mean I understand how poles word, but it was like trumps said this, so people targeted for three days and Alec forty three percent of people are again. We should we totally pages bonuses to carry guns into school. I'm can't even picture how it was to work like it's, like you know, I don't know, like Mr Hervis he's up there at the blackboard he's like two in math problems. He's got like a gun, in his left hand, ready to spin around and look like what. What do you mean? I think the image here- and this is not to say that it is a good idea but like there was a twitter thread that went viral last week about a mother, who was talking to his eye that they had had an active shooting drilling. Her son was talking about how his job was to, with a few other students, push the table in front of a door and then stand behind the table so that those students were like you know if they if this shooter came in there be the ones who got shot, not threats to their classmates, and she was like who the hell
while in tiered you, the one black kid in this class to be the one who stand areas like no, I volunteered- I you know, I I dont worry everyone else to die in me to live, and it was very you know, sad and weaving, and all of that, so I guess the logic here is the teacher will be the one behind the door with the gun. You know while the shooters prowling the hallways, so if this shooter tries to break into anyone classroom, you know that is not aid Hence it is merely an illustration: there are layers to how bout of an identity crisis link that's left field. That's, let's start with the fact that if you look at just people in mass shooting situations, there have been multiple simulations where people have tried this out most people, even while their armed we'll just not react in time and actually kill the shooter, because these are horrible will traumatized events where people are scared out of their minds. Rightfully, and just will not react, I mean life is not a video game where you can just easily shoot anyone in your way. You have to like. Take your time
name and so on in and most people are just not capable of doing that, even if they have a gun and even if they have like advanced training. In some cases, there's FBI data showing that half of police officers who respond act of shooting situations, almost half of them- are wounded or killed in the process. These are people warlike, super trained to do this. They do at full time and still almost half of them get at least injured. A teacher who get some training and gone over the weekend or over summer break is probably going to do way worse than that and could like causes chaotic she, out. That will actually hurt more people. I am glad that you brought the analogy to police officers in early because it's not like we don't have You know examples in real life of people whose job it is to carry guns and be able to protect other people from dangerous. Aren't you human beings, lake?
we literally have built it into american law that a police officer gets us an amount of leeway if they end up shooting a person who maybe what didn't pose an immediate danger to others. Just because we have decided that Lake Erie, better for them to be a little over aggressive than to be allowed under aggressive vat, something that a lot of people are working to change right now. There is a lot of scepticism that it's actually a good idea to build in the Our idea of a justifiable homicide for a police officer who doesn't have any idiot sense that somebody is going to pose a danger or who thinks that they're going to pose a danger does because there looking for their waistband or they look big and threatening or they're on marijuana. So who knows what they could do, which are all things that police officers saying depositions all the time why it would be a good idea to give that response. ability to another group of people who don't nessus
rarely have those legal protections or who you could go the teachers, those legal protections, but like do, we really want a world in which teachers can be told that if the sixteen you're old in their class is like you know what standing up and look threateningly at them the day. ok for them to fire, the gun that is under their desk like these are things The anyone who has you know anyone who has worked. It was looked at actual. Shootings. Anyone who has fired again, you know, stands that there are a lot of very difficult decision that have to be made just to successfully pull the trigger on something and that human being
These are often clouded by judgment and don't necessarily understand who the right person is suddenly warehouse. In part, one happens it. It dominates news attention for at least a couple days and in this case, for for longer than that, but quantitatively way you have more people in a typical year in the United States, die in gun accidents than in these kind of spectacular shooting type incidents, and so just gonna one question, but is this the we point two million teachers in America? If you gave, I think, Trumpeton about twenty two? Thirty. Forty percent of them guns, you're, talking about hundreds,
Thousands, if not millions, of additional firearms Eurostat up my love money, if you're giving them bonuses. For I mean schools, so would have like an actual educational function. That resources need to be dispensed they're, not like security services. You talking, but a very large increase and like the quantity of firearms that are specifically in this hypothetical, like gonna, be around children, a mix of like children who might be dangerous for because little kids do dumb stuff. Unlike teenagers, who am I Andrews for, because teenagers do a different kind, dumb stuff from little kids Billig either way. It is a question of like these school shootings. They focus public attention on the question of violence in America, but also not like a great actual Linz fur like seeing the scope of the issue or really there
nature of it and also, to be honest, I mean if this was. If, if these school students were all there were two gun, deaths in America is not clear to me that it would actually be worth doing much of anything like in forms. A big policy changes about two minutes: it's terrible but quite small relative to the overall scheme, EL of Gun, homicides in the United States than suicides gun accidents right, it's it's when you hear you know thirty thousand what whatever but very big numbers of deaths every year, that's incorporating a lot of other kinds of stuff and that slut why there is a serious issue that people might wanna put big changes on the table for and the idea of like incorporating more weapons into more situations with more kids around,
is like it very much backward right, and I think that the one thing I want to emphasise their, though, is that even in the frame of like thinking about this as as like, And if you want school, shooting specific policy solutions, I dont think that arming teachers would actually help battle. I mean you. You can just imagine the scenario where this untrained teacher is gonna. Try to chase after somebody who's carrying around in there are fifteen and clad in a classroom and the there's just no guarantee that teacher will actually be able to take down the shooter, not hurt anyone else, but I think the like the bigger point you- may there, which is like that. The problem mentally in the? U S is it as a way to many guns than these guns make it very easy for somebody to escalate just about any situation into a violent and counter? Were somebody dies? So the idea, putting more guns into any setting, including schools
we'll just make gun violence situation worse in general, even if a teacher does managed to, in some cases, actually stop a shooter, the that outside of lake. Now, the teacher with our videos out there of teachers, the literally attacking their students, because they get an arguments with the students. There are tons of arguments that are fights and schools between students. It the idea that you would place, a gun in these situations, allowing somebody to reach for it and turn. What would otherwise be bias. A stupid, fistfight or somebody pushing somebody around into like an actual deadly shooting is to sell ridicule and even overshooting scenario ready mean tromp was talking Malik. Well, maybe if the teacher was also a veteran, but like I mean I know, people who served in the military
some over them, served in like infantry brawls, where they carried rifles and they all train but, like I know, people who have flown airplanes for the military right like they're, not ready to I do so low combat and confusing indoor situation might be the it's not it's. Just like teachers are not trained to do this public. Very. Very few people are well trained enough to reliably him these kind of situations, and we ve been son in parkland. It turns out there was a sheriffs deputy, I guess a police officer who was stationed at the school he seems to have not got an intervened in this situation has been criticized.
Rightly for that up, but also you can understand like why he didn't come in guns, blazing that even even police officers who are trained to do the same whose job it is is too like put their lives at risk it in these kinds of situations. It's not like. That's the routine daily work of a police officer, like the average cop you meet out on the street. Doing his job has not like Celine a dozen active shooters in chaotic situations. It is just not the other skill said that anybody in any sizeable quantity reliably possesses and like we do, you know for police like they do their best when these things happen at there's a reason these shooting rampage stop, but like this, no like good way to do this. We don't like James Bond on campus to stop it. I think that it's it's worth being really explicit,
about what we're talking about with the relationship between school shootings and gun violence, re lake. There are few kind of basic facts here. One is that the problem of gun violence in America is not primarily a problem of school shootings or even mass shootings. Right like like Matt sat it's it's not even necessarily a problem of gun, intentional that homicides primarily that lake even every day gun violence, does not look like the spectacular gun violence that we saw in parliament last week. The second truth is that the gun debate in America is one hundred percent tied to events, that of spectacular violence. I can't think of the last time gun the guns and gun, control and gun. Violence were on the national agenda that people were talking about them in Sunday. Talk shows that was about a mass shooting and often a school shooting that these. These are the events that kind of focus, people's brains and
maybe it's just because there numbers are high. That kind of thing. It's also the case that people get in, to the idea that there is a lot gun. Violence in inner cities there's a lot of gun violence among the like poor people of color and that that doesn't really folks attention so much as a school where people are expected to be if and where children are expected to be innocent, the stuff you know her. My is talking about with the kind of downstream effects of an oath teacher, Peter student confrontations that were already aware of those are the things happen in schools that we dont, think of as like the schools that need to be precise, didn't school shootings but Nonetheless, the schools where the metal detectors get put where all of the police officers are. You know the place. that already look like White D.
well Trump and others are support, are saying all schools should look like those places exist. It's just that people like Donald Trump, don't necessarily see them, and so, when we're talking about kind of gun Paul, He generally it's worth it to point out that, on the one hand, politically, you know there's an f to turn this kind of attention to spectacular violence and to you no middle, ass teenagers into I that is actually going to help a broader but different group of people and also that the policies you think of as school shooting specific policies. aren't necessarily going to stop school shootings, because that was saying. School shootings are spectacular, violence that people are necessarily trained for, but are in probably, you know ways that the people, the people,
what a stop gun violence, don't want to see going to trickle down to you. No less enfranchise populations where it's going to be used is another way to keep people down. Ok, but part of the reason why the gun control debate has come to focus so heavily on the school shootings is that violent crime levels in the United States have fallen. Allied, You know a foot from where they were historically in the in the nineties when, when there was a federal saw weapon ban past- and there was more politics behind gun control, there was also a lot more crime
in general right- and this was a heyday of of tough on crime, politics of three strikes and you're out laws, but also of stricter gun control, type whirls weighed, and then there was in the arts some considerable roll back of that kind of stuff that was associated with a general reduction in my social concern about crime, and that was also when Congress but kicks. There had been a big movement by big city mayors to really tackle the gun industry. To do law suits, holding gun manufacturers responsible for the use of their guns in you, no more or less ordinary crime type staff in Congress immunize come any factors against those kind of lawsuits. I mean at a time when Republicans control Congress, but as a Democrats voted for that bell, but it was a time of when, when public concern about crime reached a kind of low
ebb and then posts sandy hook. We ve seen the issue we seen the gun issue put back on the table in, I think actually a different. You know I'm a totally different political type context, although you know you see like Michael Bloomberg, is the guy behind every town for four gun safety is the founder? Is the main donor to it. They are very active in this sort of mass shooting politics, but he obviously was mayor of New York. City was leading proponent of this gun litigation strategy and his time- and there was never in his years as mayor this kind of school shooting in New York City. But there is like a lot of people in New York, some of whom get shot at any given day, and he you know was: he was tough on crime on a sort of broad front. So I dont think that element of it is is gone exactly it just does
have like the juice in Congress that it once had. I initially here, assuming a correlation between actual crime rates and public perception of crime rates that, like the data, doesn't actually show like in any given year. Half of Americans are more will say that crime is going up. Like it is, and it's it's something where you know- and this is a dynamic that we talked about on the weeds recently in a residential in socially segregated world. A lot of people's exposure to crime happens through news, and that means that aid that can particular violence, a school shootings, gets a lot of oxygen but be like you have a lot suburban its thinking that inner cities are no Gozo right that lake. This is this is why, I kind of some of the sanctuary city Emma's. Thirteen stuff is so powerful because people genuinely there there does appear to be a constituency arrogance that genuinely appears to believe that it's not safe for them to go into major american cities, because they're so vile went by. Egg is does one thing: if you turned american politics over to the elected officials from Majority Minority urban neighbour
so yeah, ok guns would be big deal completely in the United States. Right like it's. It's just like it's not true that, like the at the centre of Anti gun, politics in the United States is white suburban swing distress. You know me and like it's true, that those things put it on on the media, gender, but like. The reason Chicago keeps getting invoked in some hazy way here is that, like the elected officials from the city of Chicago are very hostile guns right and I to to this point, You said earlier, like levels of gun, violence have dropped over the past few decades and then that's generally true in terms of like there are fewer homicides or fear less violent crime in general. But one thing emphasised is that you asked levels of gun. Violence are still way higher than other device even after that decline, and that,
felt a lot in this every day, gun violence that we see all over the country we ve, we ve heard a lot about you. I'll tromp was talking a lot about Chicago last year, while I was reporting in it, recent murders I mean we now hear about Baltimore, because there are also going to a similar issue and like these, these kinds of event they'd do DR local politics and step in terms of like what we should do about restricting access to guns, and why not? One thing to emphasise, though, is that The reason that those local politicians as local and state restrictions aren't enough is because of you, in Chicago, and you impose all these restrictions on firearms. That's that's good. then the city, but if you travel a few hours out to Indiana or Gary Indiana Leg, just specifically, which is almost basically a suburb of Chicago you would certainly be able to buy firearms with much lacks laws, because Indiana doesn't have restrictions nearly as strict as Chicago and
that's. That's one reason why these these local pilot, patients who are involved in this issue. Emphasise national solutions. Why they focus so much on these mass shooting at school shooting event, because they know that result Instead, solutions is frankly aren't enough, and these Van for whatever reason capture in that a national audience? And then? the national audience, it Wasn'T- is what's necessary to actually addressed this issue waiting me that's a mean in some ways the tragedy of it is that, like you, can't create like force fields around left wing city. Is that like repel the guns from them because you have because I think you frequently hear me something I've heard Bernie Syn.
Say bestowing. I used to hear how our dean say: Vermont happens to be a state that is like both very liberal and very whirl and has a high level of gun ownership for such a blue state. Is they will want to save what exactly what I would want to say if I was a democratic Party elected official from Vermont, which is like we should have a federalism solution like here in Vermont like we don't have a lot of crime. We have a lot of rolling hills, there's a certain kind of culture like we should let people have their guns and bobbing above a bar, and then, if people like over in Boston over New York, one a different, stricter set of rules because they have a different set of problems like that's fine like we don't.
He too have like a huge vicious national culture war over whether or not people can have guns at their house, but is you're, saying romantic, it doesn't it doesnt work. Ride like it is clear that strategy is completely ineffective and like it requires you to nationalized this debate, on which people have both like different views, but also like our legitimately in different situations and like that's, that's hard like at nothing about american politics is like that. Well designed to like let people bridge a cultural chasm that, like isn't just totally made up nonsense felling, actually reflects different situations that prevail in India,
kinds of places and you Norman. I think you really really see that in the wake of these kinds of things, and particularly in like a marker Rubio strategy, it at the town Hall, was to sort of try to get the Democrats up there to admit that they favour more extreme measures than they were putting on the table which it was a clever strategy and his part, because I get me specifically what happens. He was talking about us all weapons ban than he was saying. Look to do what you guys want. You would need to ban all semi automatic long guns of any kind, and that's it is that what you think and then the Democrats got very sort of shy right and it's easy, but the crow what wildlife it's worth pointing out that, like MRS End and this is you know, it speaks to everything you're saying that lake there is a kids. You know there is a
constituency for whom that seems like a very obvious and a reasonable solution, and it's just not a constituency that crafts can be confident is like fifty one percent of the population and weight or or the cares passionately about my boy, there's a large number of people. You know people, culture, liberal people in and around big cities who will say like look like we want to have a gun shooting hobby like that's fine, but we need, like rules around your gun, shooting hobby guarantee that it will not harm anybody right. So you can have like single shot rifles. You could have pistols that are in lockers at ranges. Maybe off duty. Police officers could get it. You know That that whole sort of sweet of things and then but that's so much more far reaching than the kind of legit that would be like a Europeans I'll gun regime and I think the evidence is clear that like, if you had drastically fewer firearms like.
you'd have more people sorted, gettin smacked in the head, with a baseball bat and fewer being shot and killed. You'd have way fewer suicides. You'd have fewer gun. Accidents like the country would be much safer, but you would be meaningfully impinging on the lifestyle of people who enjoy the gun ownership thing. I do think that lake even though the kind of policy regime you're suggesting of like it's fine, if you have your gun, shooting hobby, is to the right of white, linked to the extent if there is a mobilized left on this issue, they may not necessarily be like single issue gun voters, but very deep, ITALY is a constituency of people who do not understand and our moderately disgusted by the idea that shooting a lethal weapon could be a hobby for anyone and lake. This Definitely you know they're. There is a will. Yes, of course, We want to take all your guns. It is bad for you to have guns. That may not reflect.
mainstream even Lib. position on the issue, but that the but who are passionate about this are passionate about. I really want to protect other people's gun, shooting Hobbes their passionate about the idea that this is a like a barber. What does a man? You know like card cards on the table here? You know I am a member of a gun household. I don't have a problem with that. We are right, I believe, very strongly and in responsible gun ownership I think, that I have I have shot a gun. I think that shooting a gun is similar, to driving a car in so far as if you are, aware at pretty much every point that what you are doing be incredibly dangerous. You are dirty yourself and others like. I think that that is something that is very important to be called visit of, but this it's also cognitive important, be cognizant of that when you're driving to tongue hunk of metal So I do think that there is a certain amount of you know, discussed polity
going on here the Mai. Make it a little bit harder to eat figure out whether it be you can keep your gun hobby. You know it policy regime is, is practicable right in that point I mean I would like to see all guns band. Re right you to actually do I've taken the other you wanna see like sugar band, like you want everything, sugars, fine, we could just put a temporary everything should be illegal, accept marijuana, that's the Herman and ferrets packets, but no, I mean it in general, at least like so I mean you're in favour of safe injections, an injection sites, rightly what about like save shooting rangers, Well sure I mean, like I'm not sure what a safe shooting range looks. The injection reds sate, looks like rain. Shooting at a target seems safer than injecting yourself with heroin. I I bet there are more acts
and unlike injuries and deaths at actual shooting ranges, and there are unlike Vancouver, safe injection Sites get married, have ever let let's take a break it and then we'll come back. I kept keep Talkin weapons started bogs in twenty fourteen it was, it was practically the stone age is, and we had did you know we, hosted or job openings, applying different job boards and unjust kind of waiting to see anybody would apply. Eventually, we got great standards, we got a great site, but he's very inefficient zipper cruder noses a smarter way than that, and so they built a platform that finds the right job and it is for you, I zipper cooler, what you're looking for it identifies people with the right experience then invite them to apply for your job at these events. And they re revolutionise how you find your next higher eighty percent employers, who posted job and zip recruiter equality, Canada through the second just one day and super grid, or if they don't stop there, they highlight the strongest applications received. So you,
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all civilian possession of swords and guns, and since and they have maintained that ban pretty stringently people concerned. obtain weapons for like hobbyist stuff like like target but they had to go through a lot of hurdles. The police can any time just drop by your house and make sure your storing everything correctly. If there's a national emergency. The government could take her guns temporarily from you and let your swords, totally sure how works with swords is that is the national emergency and being taken people's guns on the government actually does, or is it just like it's written into the law that no one is actually used? I am actually sure whether it's been used before, but I do know it's it's written into the law in India, they're all dead, though the idea is like that you are
you are allowed to have these weapons, but you have to clear a lot of barriers and are only allowed in very specific circumstances, because in Japan they just do not want people who don't need them like stairs like that, unless you're, a police officer you just should not have a firearm, so that would be the all of us I deal let's be clear here. It is not like. Nobody in Japan has guns other than police officers. Right leg varies obviously like organized crime in Japan like there's a certain it is it. This is not a one hundred effectiveness policy, but what you are saying is that it at a more tolerable level. I mean it's about much. A tolerable level in the eightys there were, like, I think, was around a dozen gang related murders. And that was a bloodbath in that was reported as a bloodbath and japanese press like throughout this in
Our decade, they had maybe a dozen martyrs related to these king fight, and that was considered a crisis. What am I ain't? My favorite movies is ninety nine at two catchy catana movie called violent cop. It's about it with violent but like willing, because its Japan he's like weirdly, not that violent, like he's, kicks a lot of guys and he likes slap. Some around Belike enemy, movie called violent cop. There would be like well Gibson Welby body count in the hundred union and like they're. Just I mean it goes to show, as you think, it's like. There's no crime and right resisted, like Answer I mean there's a reason: soldiers have guns right. I guess that's a really good way to kill people yet it so it later here's suicides? Regulate we hear about Lake depends lake in despair Pro. suicide problem well over the law. In the: U S in our white, like the kind of responsible want
like you and others have keep pointing out, is like guns are problem, not least because they make it easier for people to commit suicide lake is that is Is there evidence that? That's that, like the japanese suicide rate with you know, is it's like is being depressed by that? Or is that an argument that, maybe you know suicide is a little bit more resistant to policy, then homicide. As I mean end of the day. What what's going on in Japan and also some other countries in the region regarding suicides? Are there? So there seems to be like a lot of cultural factors there, and that is and to point out in that guns- are not the only contributor to people killing themselves, but based on the other research we have, they are a big factor, a surprise, amount of suicides are almost impulsive in that lake within few hours somebody will decide. I want to do this and actually act on it. So if, in the
in that time frame you can limit the their ability to act non lethal way that will actually that that prevent the suicide or if they try, it is much less likely to be successful. One good study on this comes out of Israel, where they essentially din allow soldiers to take their guns home with them, and there was a very significant decrease in the number of suicides there. So I mean it's hard to say just how much it's depressing suicide in Japan, but there there is, presumably factors space on all this other research, so but that the general, when I think is that an Japan is an ideal is like the India is, there are just way too many guns out there, like. I mention that that lets all these situations, from suicide to homicides like petty dispute just escalate, to violence and Japan from the start has made it a point that
It will limit the amount of guns in circulation and that has helped it from the start. in just really low levels of gun violence compared to other countries. So, given that we live in neither Japan nor her mantelpiece Lake, the the policies that actually kind of percolate up to Congress dont tend to be taken, people's guns. It and be things like you know: air fifteen's or assault weapons or background checks like water. What's the track record on, moderate gun control yeah. I think that the idea is, if you like. I think one good example on this is Missouri misery. You sit have what's called a permit to purchase and gun licensing. Actually so so, if you had, if you were going to buy a handgun, you would have to go through. Every one will have to go through a background check. Have a license for that Xcetera
misery repeal that in two thousand seven and it had been around for decades. I think, since nineteen twenties and immediately that year, gun homicides went up, and it would support emphasise here- is other types of besides non gone. Homicides did not go up, so you saw these gun. Homicide immediately, go up along with the actual amount of guns in circulation, and not only the amount of guns, funds regulation but guns from with in Missouri were or more likely to be caught by policing and crime sinks, and things like that so I suggested even em a measure that would be like mild with its essentially universe, background checks does have an appreciable impact. You can also get into other stuff like like another one that that's really being pushed after Florida is an assault, weapons, and this one, the researches lake way we go on in terms of like the? U S did have a ten year assault weapons ban in place from ninety four to two thousand for and if
look at the research. The amount of gun crimes did not actually decrease appreciably. Thanks to that end, recent research or stay. There are caveats that the law had a bunch of law, calls for one. Since Eu Us does not have universal background checks. There's a question of how well you can enforce an assault weapons ban. I mean people could probably just They are fifteen's or or whatever just without going through background check at all and The other question is like: if the ban, had been in place for longer. Would that have had a more appreciable, a fact meaning so we have these assault, this assault, weapons ban, I mean assault. Weapons, do make shootings deadly in terms of like they just allow people you to kill way more people, so perhaps And assault all weapons ended at emplaced longer could have overtime, just made shootings less lethal and that could have had an effect, but generally we ve seen from from ninety four to two thousand for the? U S is that the solvents and did not have a maid
effect on conqueror. Interestingly, though, it did have an effect on Mexico's gone homicide after the US all up, his band was repealed in the. U S, the amount of assault weapons. Homicides in Mexico went because the country gets a lot of its guns from the U S, the? U S, slacks, gun laws, and that that lead to more cadets in Mexico. So I am in free they this, because I feel, like there's, also kind of a historical lake in there. Mexico has had lake is a lot more violent now than it was twenty years ago for reasons that are not entirely about guns. I would be interested to see how robust the methodology here as, but I trust that you're not like coming here and spewing crappy writers on what you want with a universal liquid universal background check and licensing regimes, because at that that to me sounds like the kind of thing that dislike robust enough to make a difference, but now
so far, but like that you could also emit totally imagine the median voter hearing on being. I guess that makes sense. So what would it look like a like yellow what languages that actually mean like what? What what what what what what would be done mechanically? Well, I mean you, you could like gotta, like just now, to Canada to see. How would look I'm? Basically what it means is right now, if, if your license dealer you had to do a bat, round check to. If, if you sell a gun to anyone, so That's your license. Yielded thing is: is that a lot of people sell guns who aren't since dealers, and in terms of like, like it, I'm a family member revived friend- and I want to give him a gun alike- I'll do that alike, give him or sell them again. I do not have to do a background check for that, this is like my father in law owns a bunch of guns, and so he could just like sell one. To somebody: yeah and you do not like technically have to do a background check for that, and
what what it means to have universal background check is that every single transfer, stale etc would require a background check. So even these private sales between individuals and to be cleared just family members it these had these happen, online right people will sell guns one on one to each other online Facebook Craigslist there have to examine, as like furniture recommended, that any kind of durable goods yeah there's like a large secondary market, because, like old guns, work yeah exactly like, but I was about to face, were crazy, etc, have taken steps to try to prevent that from happening undersides, but there are always can be websites where that's where possible. So the idea is, you should at least Rick wire legally that that there should be a background check. Then you get into the question of well? How are you been enforced? Anyone not and that lake Let's get into questions about like well, you need to start tracking these guns. Better, maybe have a registry and in some cases may be, have licences in some cases and
That's the way you would actually start making sure that these background checks are happening since somebody if they're, like reporting, hey, I transferred this gone to this person. The next question is: ok, did you do a background check and kind of how the system would start looking and if you look at the polling bristle background checks are very popular, the I think, but that stuff like a registry and licensing schemes, they have less support among voters, but that's kind of what you need to start actually enforcing universal background. John, presumably telling people hey you legally have to do. This would get a lot of people to comply with that, but people also women, and that's that's when it starts getting like that. The details darkening, let alone I would let it would look more like how cars
exact. We're like you, can sell your car, obviously to somebody else, but there's a formal process. Right I mean if the police officer pose you ever speeding ass for your license and your registration right, like you, have to keep detailed records of who is the owner of every single car and every single state in America, and if the police gettin report given license plate like they can look it up in a computer right. I mean this is the kind of stuff right that, like has always been fought, very heavily sort of on the theory that if the government has an accurate searchable database of where all the guns are and who owns them, that that that lets you confiscate them rain some hypothetical, like second move, but that's what you that's what I like it
efficacious rigorous background checking system would were quite right and it's really hard to overstate just how powerful that they fear is. I remember in a when there was in twenty eleven a bill in Congress to require all employers to verify the immigration status of their employees. Wine the energy but the gun owners of America, which is the group to the right of the hour. I I was pretty only opposed to it, because they felt that any attempt to create a strong, centralized database could be used to become a gun ownership database. You know, making earlier about about the kind of political, did you see that is. I have my guns. I like them, but you know the guns. Hobby constituency is not that that's a very different political justification from the Second amendment says that in case the government becomes tyrannical. My guns are going to be the one thing protecting the republic argument and the fat.
The two are kind of mixed, both in the politicks. Debate and in kind of presented as the same group of people who care about both things. Doesn't actually reflect necessarily all gun owners, but easing Crete does make it so gun owners as a political group get used as this. Well, you know no one wants you to do anything that would make it easier to track. You know. Projects are a registry because their proud of their guns. This is an interesting you don't do. I get this a theoretical version of the United States of America in which strong gun rights is a civil libertarian cause, unlike in that universe, the ACL you is big supporter of second men rights and also the inner ray, is strong
allied with groups that say, protest, police, brutality, right and I know you are- there- are individual human beings. I think some of them in the dark And household who likes are very much in that like zone of convergence, yes, but in the like actual world, it's it's it's actually opposite of that right in that, like the same political constituency for everybody needs an air fifteen at home to overthrow the government is also the people who are like you have to stand up for the national anthem yet to worsen the almighty power of the state and any Emmy. You really saw this come to a head in the Filipino Castillo case, which
about a public school employed for the record. As long as we're talking only about arming teacher is meaningless, everybody was both sides right at me. People on the left understood that is like a civil rights complaint at people on the right, also understood it as a civil rights it lies and nobody understood it real and again I don't want to spend our time it. It was ass though he would probably everyone around this table remembers, but just make sure listeners remember as well. The n r a put out one statement several days. After the shooting, after several days of people, going what why the energy talking about the fact that a legal gun owner was killed, having a gun put out a state and saying what we will have all the facts yet and that that that's all they did and it was. It was definitely a case of Vienna RE, acting as a group within the Republican Party which has been captured by side of the culture war rat
in the end, are acting as a consistent organization in support of legal got? Nobody need, but just think it's in terms of what is the practical, cultural, meaning of light concealed carrying particularly open carry laws. Would you really saw like in the true race case right? Is that this sort of shared cultural understanding in a state like Ohio. Is that the meaning of open carry laws is that white people will be able to open? We carry firearms big and they will be treated respectfully by law enforcement figures and that black people in some have Theo Cole sense, could openly carry firearms, but also police officers might just shoot them on site. And right and like you would not you would not. Advice is like if, if somebody can do like, like a young african american man came up to me and said, like mad, like
I live in a dangerous neighbourhood, I dont really have confidence in the police to like safeguard my interest in my community. I'm considering walking around openly carrying a firearm at all times, as is my right as President Ohio built. That's fucking, crazy man like don't do that right, leg and, like that's, doesn't a core issue. here right in terms of like what are we really talking about ran to that point, I mean one of the reasons that there was support for gun. Legislation in the sixties is because their work groups of black activists walking around carrying guns in public and that scared the shit out of people, so that tend to that point that it's always been part of this issue went down on a day like emphasise, though just just cause. I pry wasn't too clear This reform and internal like the licensing and registry, is like it is doubly true that that would likely I'll get anywhere because the energy, I fear that, like this, will lead to confiscation down the line
still. It is also important to emphasise that, even without those measures based on the research, just about anything that makes guns are successful, does lead to fewer conduct. They just one b, the one huh percent so or even fifty per. solution that people hope it is based on the region would reduce the amount of gun? That's but again because of these like all these cultural forces. These fears of widespread gun confiscated, at the any moment, the government and at like Rubio strategy right, he wanted to make it seem like live. I really want harsher gun measures and they're letting on that's exactly He was getting out of tapping into that fear that that, at the end of the day, Mcgrath may say yeah. We just want universe, background checks will what they really want is gone confiscation. I think it's worth points on this together because idea that lake guns and go culture is for white people. Isn't just something that people who support, guns and gun culture. Believe rightly there is, you know it there
have lots of evidence that its the number of Americans who own guns, increasing its the number of guns, that people who own guns have that like ownership is becoming not not enough tv, but an identity in a particular way and that the more harden that becomes the more its associated with other cultural signifier like being White Lake, believing should stand for the national anthem like Guy, ownership and thinking of guns as a thing that people should have is getting caught up with all of this stuff, so we don't obviously like it's not like. We live in a world where only white people, own guns, but the police. medical, meaning of gun ownership, is becoming something that a lot of progressives. You know including progressives of colored. Don't are on board, with don't necessarily agree with in pulling on this, but I would be shocked if the number of people who have never shot a goner never held a gun isn't lake. really high, among particularly young progressives. I e
Similarly, the people who are dreamily gung, HO about this wave of student activism after the parkland shooting. I think that this is in a race, racial anxiety absolutely created the gun politics we have today, but the more hardened that gets the more were in a world where you you're not gonna happen. gun, control being something that people used to fight in artistic fight. Black panthers, big. His gun control is now expect, no increasingly explicitly something that progressive whites use against conservative. Why? Right? There are one thing It's weird is at the people, more exposed to high levels of gun ownership like if you think of somebody who is in a bad neighborhood in Chicago. They see the effects of gun islands and widespread gone ownership every day in their lives and are the ones who are more likely just based on polling just based on their part?
all leanings to oppose the widespread Gunnar They want more gun control underlies, whereas people who live in, say why suburban rural areas, even though they have lower levels of gun violence, they seem to be more likely to think. I need this gun to defend myself and protect my family, and what not? And it's really, this strange dynamic where people, the people who you would think and are less likely to need those guns to protect themselves, actually want those guns more and its, because the people who do see the effects of widespread circulation of and in their neighborhood they understand that this result in a law. of unnecessary gun violence and they don't want that to happen anywhere. I think this is an interesting, location of you know, there's been a fight going on politically about the idea that the students in parkland should like have any particular purchase on the gun debate
but like oh they're, just kids, they don't really understand the nuances of the policy issue and, on the other, the left going. You know they have just lived through a traumatic experience there. Talking about you, know, are using their knowledge of that. To advocate for change, you know, isn't that the most powerful advocacy you can do and it's hard to kind of take out to be seriously, because it's very easy to understand that if the issue were say people killed by unauthorized emigrants, deep positions would be exactly where's the conservatives would be same will. Of course, we need to listen to these victims, because something horrible has happened to them. That shouldn't happened to anyone and progressive would be saying yes, but that's not actually reflective of the general state of policy yadda yadda yadda, but there is generally this sense that the victims of tragedy should have a particular voice in public policy debates about how to prevent that tragedy. There. You know people do think that nine eleven victims and first responders like work. Kind of special case,
talking about not only response, but the war on terrorism generally. That kind of thing sympathy does not peer to extend to the people who are the inner you're talking about right? Who are the most likely to be exposed to everyday gun violence, it's kind of an resting wrinkle in the idea that we need to be listening to those who are most directly affected? Thank you, don't I a general I'm not like big and listen to the victims as a thing
It is interesting in this particular case, though, because we have these two very competing fury is specifically about the school shooting right like this, where we start right, unlike one theory, is the lesson of parkland is like Highschool math teachers should have guns, and another theory is the lesson parkland is fewer. People should have guns and of the fact that people who were there and who know the teachers who were there and know what the school building is like and know what the atmosphere was like are not saying. By and large, oh yeah trumpets right, we needed more heavily armed teachers. That tells you something I mean I M
doesn't help that much honestly like you should you should look it look at research on things, but it's it's different from you can imagine a world in which the energy was making the case like look eyes like this was terrible, but a normal, like limo liberal case about something, but like we gotta, keep it in perspective. Leg is
Is this not the large phenomenon quantitatively and then you'd have like sad distraught people who upset that their their friends and relatives were killed and he said, like you know how much weight to you. Do you put on an grieving people, but everyone at least purports to be saying that, like they have a solution to this problem- and you know one side, like really does I think, generally people tender responded tragedies I saying that they have solutions, because there isn't enough tolerance for saying yes, this is bad, but we cannot actually legislate away anything bad happening to people. I would be much happier with a world in which the end and in which you know one side. Could say yes, we agree that this is an unfortunate consequence, but because it's not a terribly common phenomenon, we're not going to like we're, not gonna name any laws after anybody's her mind. That is not the world in which taken guns Dara, just just
yeah. Well, I'm carrying water dealt with only urging the wise middle ground loses people universal background checks. With that There are four listening to another upset with weeds, and I think you are producer. Brigitte Armstrong. Thanks to our sponsors, check this out. Weeds Facebook group out we ve got the new Daily NEWS explaining podcast today explained. That is available in stature and everywhere else that fine progress are sold and we will be back next week.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-12.