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But first we do want to delay that a little bit and make you listen to some more public policy talk and something that I was interested in. Is that Ross doubt that did this column, Did they would enjoy some people because it was coming from rushed out that visit conservative, who maybe doesn't actual care about this stuff, but voicing concerns that you know I associate with sort of african american leftists like like out of reader or set of Johnson, which was that the sort of regional policy The outpouring of people in the streets, but also in social media and in the corporate world, on behalf of black lives matter represents at least

some level, a coaptation by corporate Amerika of progressive energy, in a way that you didn't see when young people were rallying for Bernie Sanders. For example, who was talking about economic justice? And you know I mean I think, there's this like a number of different ways in which you can view this. I mean, if you look at the actual protest leaders. They do of course have a very robust social and economic just this agenda. So I think it's a. U can schema ties the stop sort of too much, but I do think it's true on another level that you see after George Voice death, a lot of sort of only preoccupation with interests. Specks in type issue is

and representation in selective college faculties. They things like that in a weird way for a mass social movement to me at least are almost like alarmingly and threatening to the people who really hold power in society. So a couple thoughts on this, and I want to read a part of crosses peace here to just give a flavour of his argument. I think it's called the Mai should have written this down but, like I said about Bernie Sanders losing for the second time bits. Frites. The longer arc of the current revolutionary moment may actually end up vindicating, the social critique of post, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two liberalism that it is obsessed with cultural power at the expense of economic transformation, and it puts the language of radicalism in the service of Let us first idea to revise your signalling here. Mad. Is that he's basically saying that

that is rather of or much of his career was built on this idea that you needed to sever class politics, my deputy politics fundamentally, and that he failed to do that to some degree or another and twenty twenty which it may be why he lost, but you're seeing should have why that was in possible now, because its identity politics, it actually unifies the Democratic Party and Ross as few I think this is wrong on a number of levels, but the primary one is that I think it actually gets the direction of the causality reversed. So, let's just put like very simple when you think about all of the companies putting up Instagram stories about systemic racism inside their organizations, and you think about why they are doing that right, which customers and which employees are they trying to appeal to

if anything about what would have happened if those customers and those employees were fundamentally urban millennials, where the people who controlled the democratic primary, the answers, Bernie Sanders would have won the democratic primary and, if you ask me would happen if they were the primary voting block in american politics. The answer is Bernie Sanders would be president and like Alexandra, Ocasio Cortez would be house speaker, and so one of the things happening here is the way I would frame what Ross is saying. Is that he's putting two things intention that are actually not intention, although they can appear to be both

the sort of revived socialist moment and the Woke capitalism moment are actually two different organizations, ecosystems, trying to appeal to the same thing, which is a much more left wing, rising, diverse electorate and really importantly, for this- and there is a tremendous amount of polling data here- and I was taking. Data for progress was sharing some of it with me.

You just look at how people feel about say, systemic racism and see what that predicts about their health care views like you will find that the part of the american public that wants socialist economics is extremely racially conscious and the part of America that is much more racially can serve it s. The part that does not believe in systemic racism. They are not that economically left on. This been always idea that the true base of left wing economic power in this country will symbolically the white working class with attacks. It is not true, it's the very people who were out like pretty young people at black eyes matter, allies who also want to see a tremendous change in our economic organisations, and I think that you have to understand a lot of different parts of society are trying to appeal them. Simultaneously anything get more and more power. They will all

change, but the thing that Russia's trying to place intention here, I'm just not convinced, are, are actually intention. I think their expressions of the same underline trend. I agree with that right. Is it as a question of sort of electoral strategy right I mean. The idea that there is a stark trade off between trying to appeal to people who are interested in left. Economic ideas and final appeal to to racial justice idea. Is that debts rock Emily exactly exactly with what you said is correct. I still think that it matters on the level The idea is that right, like sort of a league led constructions of political agendas and what they put on the table that, like I just to explicitly talk about new times articles. Today, Europe, nickel Hannah Jones, did this big splashing magazine piece about reparations. It's called kiddo

is owed? I've read that yesterday and then today I read it much less flashy dickens, Leonhard piece about deep black white wage gap, and what Leonhard concludes is that the wage gap narrowed alot between menu. Fifteen nineteen eighty and that that was primarily due to things like big minimum wage increases that happened in the sixties and that the wage gap then widened again posts. Nineteen, eighty and that's primarily due to a general in again, Harry and trends right, weakening of labour unions, of motion of the wheel than the minimum wage, etc, etc, etc, which is basically just to say that, like Leonhard, is making the case, as many people have over the years that the best way to close these systemic wish. All gaps is, in fact, through a sort of

waste neutral redistributive policy, an inheritance is article, is very much the opposite of that right. She's arguing the other view of this, which people have also helped a lot through the years, which is you, don't you see these disparities at every point to the educational attainment spectrum that new deal programmes which are structured to redistribute around African Americans, and that really you need this kind of racially specific agenda to enact things, and there s intention tension there right that detention exists since that, like agenda crowding, is a real say, you can only mobilise for so many sort of goals at once told me so many things that can be done. The cover of your magazine and other things sort I have to go in in the email in box, and I think that It is a little bit of a bona fide tension and I think

I think there is some truth on both sides of that argument, Eimer and nuanced person, but that the bulk of the evidence to me does suggest that a sort of it is that a class politics instead of a race politics. It's that the most effective way to a dress the bulk of the racial inequities in the United States, is a by addressing the basic structure of the welfare state and of the housing market and of education. Institutions and not through these kind of, I think some political dead end of like well we're gonna try to get everybody four hundred them now a cheque. But this is where, in my view, a pie doesn't work to have this conversation primarily

I analyse in things in your comes published in the best seven haze, so like a couple. A couple. Thoughts on this think again go back to Bernie Sanders whose a subjective of Ross as peace in and, in my view, access. Useful player. In this debate, Bernie Sanders had very like both became much more woke in twenty twenty than he wasn't twenty, keen and was more woke on regional issues and twenty sixteen than he had been at other points in his career, but nevertheless, in Twenty had an expansive class based agenda that had racial justice components in it, but he wasn't running on reparations. There were other candidates who had put as more open to reparations. I'm a little bit worried about things from every, but I think Colin Castro is spoken more about it. Some of them actually said they're, open reparations and then proposed race, neutral policies, which was a week trying to the democratic primary for a little while will thy Comma Harris selling unearned income tax credit increase

as potentially reparations and Corey Bucker talking about a like a color blind, universal basic. Well, program, is reparations, but nevertheless, like young African Americans backed Bernie Sanders, and I think this is true. Even incorporation like media is in a bad example. Here new media organisations have had a wave of unionization in the past couple of years, including box, media and box media realized. I would say in many ways, for the same reason that it is also like, as a corporate structure. Trying to take issues are raised very seriously because its worker base are young, left, leaning, millennials and so by the the same nature like them, leadership wants to show that it cares about systemic racism and does I think, care about systemic racism. It also like

and the union organizers, came like it found an open door in the staff and, like the the leadership, understood that it was not going to be able at like if I even wanted to fight on as it was not to be able to win a fight to stop unions. So once again, I am not saying I am a believer of preparations, but to the extent that people are going at like, as you say, choose agendas. I think what you see is there's a very big convergence in young liberals of many different races around candidates who are selling big expansive classbased CS. I think if you look, for instance in the house- and you look at some of the candidates for most out front on issues of racial justice, they are also pushing vast like Medicare, were all ideas. They are pushing really really a universal shot allowance ideas. I think there is a continuous effort to frame or argue for a tension between a class based agenda and a race based agenda

I don't want to say there is no tension there or has never been, but I also think this is a little bit of a weaponized argument and I'm not accusing Ross of doing this, but I I do think it's like an effort to try to pick a part parts of the democratic coalition we insure Both these things go together and, like I promise you that, if you regressed support for operations, it you're going to find tremendous apples and support for Medicare for all and because Medicare ferocious massively more popular than preparations, the candidate who gets elected by a coalition is going to start with Medicare for all alike. That's going to be supported by many simply because it really would matter, and that's true for a bunch of other policies in this in this area. So I just, I think, there's something in political debate where we always want to see things as in pension like one has to win out and like, as you say, in priorities like to some degree that that may be true. But these things are ecosystems Ike,

for I dont know, I've never asked Uncle Henry Jones. Has she feels but Medicare for all like either suspicion of where she comes down on and I have a suspicion of where she comes down on a bunch of these issues, and I think it would be like towards the more left wing candidates on class as well We like you, you're out, debating me here, but by continually sort of shifting the argue from an argument about ideas to an argument about the demographic composition of the electoral rights, because I guess, like I definitely agree with. It is true that the most racially left wing people also tend to be the most economically leftwing p and that sort of that a minimum right any. We know, because you could look at the congressional backup swayed and most of us we will come from majority monotony. And so you can see like what kind of representatives they send out is all Grads, its disproportionately progressive caucus. Members

Some of them are moderate but like if the way Congress worked was that the right flank of Congress was a moderate cdc member. The universe will be much much much more left wing than it is. But the question I think that I continually arises in America is like why dont things happen bright like why? Don't you get paid teach in a system that is full of veto points from where money talks and things like that, and I think that, like politics is hard, which I think is something that we both agree. That agenda setting like really does matter and that there are ways that popular discontent gets channeled, indifferent kinds of direction swayed and there was a vision, a Bernie Sanders vision where he was going to have

mass mobilization and people in the streets and that was going to crush the special interests and deliver us Medicare for all our minimum wage hike or Russian, like that, and I never found there to be all that plausible when it was it was up. Right like you, it was an idea and was this point which I think is right is that we have seen that people really can come out be brought out in the streets for a sort of I don't know I mean it's an ambitious agenda for four racial justice, but also not always entirely clear what it amounts to right when you can have like elected officials in the city of Santa Monica saying they want to tackle structural racism when, like Santa Monica. Just just is structural racism like, but guess what its that's, what it's their forward. That's, why it exists, and

I really wonder like what any of this is going to amount to like a tremendous mobilization of people, incredible amounts of energy and passion, and you see a kind of like poles shift on this, that or the other thing. And yet it seems to me to have very little light policy impact because it is so diffuse and has been channeled into he's kind of like narrow eddies of thought. This thing was almost like. Well, you should take your kids to see a black dentist and I feel comfortable making fun of this idea because MIKE does he a black dentist in it just seems so therapeutic and internalized rather than like real policy change, and it it frustrates me- and I don't think that that can be.

Evaded by sort of being well. If there were no conservative people in the electorate, then you wouldn't need to make these trade offs. So I don't want to I mean I obviously want to out. You, but I don't want to heard reports, but let me try to tell you I'm why I am, sounding best in the actual like when I think of his realities of the electorate, and which is that there is a lot happening at any given moment in american politics and like to the extent what you want me to say. As I dont think, white fragility is as good a book as other people think it isn't. I dont think white fragility is ass, good, a book as many white liberals think it as I think it is. I agree with you. It is overly introspective, as in terms of its approach to politics and overly baseline kind like internal consciousness. Raising you ve brought up a number of different points in this, and I think they go in a number of different directions, but in terms of whether or not

like to me their couple things Rasa, saying and clearly that you are saying here, but one of them is that we are seeing in this identity based mobilization and the power of this identity MO based mobilization, that class based politics and left wing economic solutions are going to get co opted into corporations. Putting black squares on Instagram gets fundamentally the argument here or it's going to get cold opted into white people having a book club in which they meet a white author, talking about how white people should feel bad about the racism with Robin Angelo. Yes, that's my biggest concern. That is what you are saying: I am saying that I dont think that is true. I think there is a direct. Action. Actually, that is often ignored by people in politics, between folks trying to like individual consciousness and then supporting ideas. In line with that, I think that if you are a white person who is equal, bread, white fragility,

we're going to be more likely to support a number of different leftwing economic ideas that are going to be both like crafted and sold in a more race conscious way. I'll give it example a little bit outside of space, because I think it in some ways is clear. There is a continuous debate in the climate change were, About whether or not anybody should be asked to make like any individual changes or like feel any individual weight in terms of a carbon output whatsoever like this comes up constantly in the space that I'm particularly interested in, which is it consumption in right, like where alike, on one hand, job suffered forest. I feel bad about how much meet your eating, because you are the weather and the like. The nation is running along peace, attacking job and sovereign power for doing this, even though suffered powers, the first person to say you need systemic policy solutions and, like my view, is that people do not vote for things that make them feel bad about their preexisting values and commitments that like they need to do personal work. So there is not cognitive dissonance between how they are voting and have who they think they are they vote like you,

this literature, unlike its very present, my thinking voting, is much more about identity expression than it is about. Like personal material self interest like we know that that has been tested a billion times now, and so I think these things come together now the place where it would not come together that the reason I am fighting on this point is a place where it would not come together as if it were true that, in fact, the left wing part of the like grid in american politics was also like racially resentful, but that's not Like the reason, it is important that it is the same people who are really racially woke were also economically left. It

allows you to have an agenda that policies together and allows you to turn identity based mobilization on these issues into classmates politics, and one thing I would say in addition to that- is that we have an example this happening in reverse for decades. Now I think you and I basically both agree that the Republican Party is an engine that turns white identity policy send backlash politics into energy that is used to cut taxes for rich people yet like that is fundamentally the structure of the Republican Party. And I would say that the Democratic Party to some degree is developing. Not this. Structure reverse, but something that is at least somewhat I'm similar, which is that there's clearly a lot of identitybased mobilization. That, then, is the I think over time. If you look at who seems to be the candidates who are leading, this movie Ben, is going to get turned into a lot of like economic and climate policy, and they, though,

things will be written correctly with, moreover, racial justice and race conscious component right, that's a very big part of the green new deal, but it is not the case that I think it's gonna get. Co opted and I could be wrong, but as this generation like, if it just gets, co opted intellect corporate instagram squares, it will be because, as this like, younger generation got richer, as has happened in some other generations. They became more conservative and became like more concerned about giving things up. But I think, if you look at the politics right now, people want to create attention that that isn't there- and I just don't agree that, like the individual stuff, doesn't have a connection to the heavier stuff I'll, just something something from piece of shit you did a while ago, but but it just came up and beside it. So in ninety four, you thirty nine percent Democrats and twenty six percent of Republican Saying discrimination was the main reason: black Americans had trouble getting ahead. Thirty, nine percent Democrats in twenty six percent of Republicans.

Twenty seventeen. Sixty four percent of Democrats agreed with that statement and only fourteen percent of Republican said the same. So a thirteen point difference of what discrimination is what you should blame for. Racial inequality became a fifty point difference, and I think we both know that that argument that, like this is just a personal responsibility problem, systemic racism has no role in this at all. Continuously used to foil leftwing agenda in american politics like forever right, it is The single most potent weapon against any kind of big class space policy, what Alberto Alesina and Ed Glazer fine. It helps explain why we don't have a european social Welfare State and, as the Democratic Party really changes its view on that moving from a minority to majority saying structural discrimination is the issue here, like, I think, the kinds of things that led to say Bill Clinton being skeptical of a lot of those programs weakened and and like like Biden.

There's no way to conduct soft on economics. To like, I dont think these are in opposition tendencies. I think it's a changing in a way that is gonna, make both sides more possible, but maybe I'm just an optimist on us right now. You are not working so light. Let's take a break because I think you actually add left us with a detestable basis, which is, we could try to get somebody to randomly assign reading of white fragility to people and then Sir hey them on unrelated economic policy questions later and and possibly see this. But I want you to begin and talk about polarization. Would you worried about him and which is interesting. Have you having trouble media your goals, focusing work? If you have feeling Strasser having trouble sleeping better help is here for you, it's not a self help. Class inside a crisis line better help is secure online professional. Hounds length with real licence their best to have the tools to help you feel better is fill out a questionnaire about how you're doing and better Hubble match you with your own licence. Therapist under forty eight

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So one of the things that we are definitely see here right I mean, I think, Lupin agreement is it we'll surge in the level of interest. Among like why. Liberals in Rachel Justice topics I am at quarantining in mean by trying to weed local newspapers, see what's goin on and it was like up the black eyes matter March recently in the town of capacity and which is near where I'm staying at this is like an all white town, as are the vast majority of towns mean, but it was organised by I think, like some college students who are at home due to the pandemic and A bunch of people I mean Rosanna Large, where people is a tiny town like they turned out, and that is a sea change is part of a sort of a double movement in. Politics- that's been happening in Maine over the past few years, which is the Democratic Party has come to be more clearly

souci, aided in people's minds with racial justice concerns, and that has helped to move a lot of white people older, particularly non college. Graduate white people into the Republican Party and this state, which is incredibly white, has become more GEO, be friendly markedly, so over the past ten years as resolved to that, but in what you saw Castillo, is the flip side of that right, which is increasing engagement by white people who live in white places, who just identify in general, with liberal politics and with the Democratic Party are marching in the streets for this in a you, can make fun of them almost because it's like what is this issue even about in that local context, but I'm going to take it seriously by its people, are

fire now about Rachel Justice, even when it doesn't necessarily impact them in a super personal direct way. They really care about this in its part of their personal identity formation right and in that at every survivors swimming you forget, I mean that's what you are calling on the site today, one of the the upside of polarisation that you have a bigger group of people fighting for the principle that black lives matter in part because the political systems become or polarized. Yes, do you think about how to save us clearly cause it's a little bit of a tricky point Polarization has been driven in this country party, polarization over the past fifty years by race, by ideology. So this Rights ACT. You know collapses, sort of four party system had where you had conservative, racist, Dixie crowds in the Democratic Party and northern liberals in the republican party. This avoids I begin on wine that coalition and so like

we're time, Democratic Party became it's about fifty percent non white, now they're pop, parties, ninety percent, while the Democratic Party is very liberal, it's fifty percent liberal party. Seventy five percent conservative ie- you just don't have the mix parties to have a big argument of my book. Is it something people miss about polarization? Is the alternative to Poland? she is often not agreement right that not having polarization doesn't mean we don't have disagreements? Would it often means is the incentive is to suppress disagreement and by the way you can really see how that played out in the first half of the twentieth century and democratic party politics. So you had Democrats there who are pro civil rights and they wanted to do and alleging laws, he wanted you to civil rights as you wanted. It voting rights laws, but because you also how delighted Congrats, who were Dixie Crap Segregationist, they bottom all that up. They stopped it in the House Rules committee. They stopped it and send it through the filibuster they made internal deals.

Let it happen- and you can see some of this even in Joe Biden, Hydro by parks like he came to Congress after this had begun ending, but still he had a lot of these sort of hold over segregationist predators like in the Democratic Party, and he was working with him because he was a Democrat and to keep good relations like you had to take them seriously, right and so Biden, both reflecting the politics of his time, but also that the coalition will needs that are or the incentives. I guess you could call it of that era. You know like works with these guys on bussing things like this. So that changes it really excel, like the change really completes itself in the Obama and then into the Trump era, and so What you have is an incentive particles in the Democratic Party to front load issues of racial progress of racial equity of risk.

Justice and by the way in the Republican Party and Donald Trump, is a is a symptom, are an expression of this to front load issues of racial backlash above of of of white feelings of resentment and like that they are being threatened, so. You have a higher level of dated a racial conflict existing between the parties, and you did because a parties previously didn't want to fight on that access because it split their internal coalitions. It may like northern Republicans mad at the like Western Republic, kids it made nor the Democrats mad at the southern democratic rights. Are they like would push that stuff down, but that change to answer now they bring it up like this is part of what you're noticing, in the first part of our conversation, Matt, which is like a like there's, a lot of liberal signalling around racial justice.

And that's in part, because racial justice become very big part, big, the liberal identity. You wrote in your in a couple years ago on the great awakening. You noted that it's that it's a it's a striking trend of the era that on many racial issues, white liberals now survey as to the left of black Democrats or hispanic Democrats, and that's because to be a liberal, the Democratic Party that identity is very heavily based on a commitment, racial equity, a commitment to writing racial injustice and so This away on two things I think flow out at us: one is, it polarization for all its problems, and I have talked about the problems opposes far institutions before it does create the conditions to have conflicts in America.

Life that we need to have and that have been and other times suppressed for wait too long. So that's one thing right, like Joe Biden, if you listen to his statements since the death of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd, he has not been trying to play this down. He has not been trying to put it to the side. He's been actually trying. Pics This is something we need to address. The pain here is too much for any one community to bear. He actually, he said I dont have a corner front of me, but he said basically that for white people to remain silent at this time is to become part of systemic violence, Right he's been very explicit on this. In a way really given his own career represents how far their private parties moved on this. But the other thing that I think is here that I think is really underplayed an american politics identity. Politics is almost always framed as politics of exclusion like it is denying us a shared ground upon which to build

call a text, and you really see her that isn't true. So ninety two percent of White Democrats express support for black lives matter, as I should say by the way, four thousand two hundred and forty four, Republicans, but what you're seeing there is like the Democratic Party, which has be gone for a lot of different reasons to and in a lot of different, like mechanisms to take the idea that being black in America is a systematically different experience being white in a mirror. And that there are structural barriers to succeeding. Don't exist for White Americans, as it has taken that seriously decide load and identity, and has allowed Elisa certain portion of the White electorate to fuse do that identity through value is right to say like I think that is unfair, and I want part of my political identity to be that I'm somebody who believes that is unjust, and so you then begin build a political coalition that has the strength to fight on this issue. Now, for all kinds of reasons black will we get the level of

change that people who are out protesting want here. I don't think we will quickly. I mean we ve talked a million on the show, but the filibuster in Vienna by Electoral College, Mal apportionment and all that I mean that the general rule than America has you eat you? Never you never gonna get what you want, but the step is unique, collisions willing to fight for things, and Hunting that polarization identity politics have have done here is greater democratic party coalition willing to fight? these issues and willing to raise them up and escalate around them such that you can have a much more multi ethnic move. Here. Then you ve had on these issues in the past. Yes, I think that that is true, and I think also in some ways is a good subway into the deep stakes. So, let's, let's, let's take a break and and think about that, because you know it's only part of

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Hundreds of behavioral therapy for veto is designed to help you prepare for the future by arming you with techniques, to help you during class. It's totally private one percent web based. So you can act that from anywhere. You can try Bermuda risk free with sixty day money back guarantee? Now, at U s dot for visa dot com, so there's been some actual changes in the deep state. The past couple of weeks and then, as you say, they they reflect some of their, so agriculture dropped out and you dropped out on MSNBC stuck up publicly and I think it is understood that you dropped out because she's from Minnesota and her prosecutors record what a little bit unclear. What happened here? She just not going to be the right pet for this moment, but you drop southern MSNBC and Sheep says: she thinks it is time fur she thinks. For this moment, Biden should pick a woman of color and says she's withdrawing from consideration and in order to help that along which are they

more or less understand a simultaneously like Amy Club, which are trying to signal they are in the modern, democratic party, cheese, onset of racial justice and potentially TED knife? Elizabeth warheads it is like the other leading white female candidate who who who might be packed, but so Now there is like a big question over like what it means, and this might be mad to be honest, where you actually get into more of the tensions you were talking about at the top of the show. Big If you look at who are the leading african american candidates, it's like far and away from inside reporting, it appears to become a Harris, does because, like she's, no one on the national scene, but she's a lot more conservative than Elizabeth Warren is blocked, much like much less of a systematic like economically left thinker, Abdalla Debbie

this: is a member of the house and and was previously and law enforcement? Is another candidates getting attention. Stacy Abrams has been talked about a lot from what we can tell from inside reporting. She doesn't seem to be at the lead of the deep stakes, possibly just because her as serve on a very big Stacy Abrams found. I will say that she is one of the most impressive politicians I have spoken to incredibly, incredibly brilliant, but my senses abide in team thinks that Georgia, mine Eddie Senate leader is just like knock at a red to people, as I already on day. One president, but, but I don't know but tat, the feeling is that she is not, in the end, the lead role there, although that can always change. So Round that there's now been this, like fight by people left tried like push the idea that war and is the right candidate, there's a lot of like pulling command coming out of data for progress on that shows that warrant

popular among both young Americans and pretty young African Americans into. Maybe she would do more to help the ticket with Bach Americans. I would see the pulling in general shows it vice president's. Do not do much fatigue one way or another, the Alexander I get janian and brain schaffner for political scientist day did some polling using service indicted for progress and they pay they showed in their appalling that verses, cobbler, Harris Warren Baby cost. The ticket point three percentage points of the vote, but also that so small. Like that's statistically meaningless. It may be, which actually help seven they can't tell so just like. Does You, like the different candidates matter much here at all, so you may just gonna pick. The person who Joe Biden gets along with an things would be a good precedent in the case of his untimely death retirement. But there is a gap shit here between the representational cow that's who are women of color, but I think, are more conservative at this point or more central. Maybe we should say that

the leading candidate, was a white woman, and also I mean to to your point earlier right. It's not like you couldn't pick an african American left like I just wanted to write. And in general, all of course, as you were saying, like African Americans in America or more left wing than white people are, but in a practical sense sway attention has arisen here in which- people on the left are trying to push Elizabeth worried because she has left wing and seems unquestionable that if it is not Warren, it will be somebody who is is seen is decidedly more moderate than wine and possibly one of these stated reasons for that other person gonna be a desire to bring african american representation into the ticket, and it's not like you couldn't swear that circle, but, like you want square that

right. Now you get, you can name Barbara Lee Vice president, the examined but she's not being that it up, and you don't have that that's gonna be one factor here. Do not stepping back. It's like, I am what I was driving up up to me and I drove past the the law firm of Helen Hamblin, which was founded. I believe by Handle Hamblin, who was Abraham, Lincoln Spice President in his first time, and very impressed by how many main facts you're getting into the spark of putting it all away, and I also have an article about the lobster bail out that should be coming soon. So it's all I'm getting things. You think about Abraham won't get right and, like he's he's the greatest president right, but one of the decisions he makes is he dumps Hamelin from the ticket needed sixty four, because he decides that he needs to get a Democrat like a pro bore democrat onto the

to help him when the election, so he dumped him when he picks Andrew Johnson at the election turns out to not be close. Speakers Sherman takes Atlanta. Real acted, but then he gets assassinated and Andrew Johnson, because President am Everybody thinks you Johnson was a terrible president write em. If you want to talk about the legacy systemic racism, and so much of it goes back not per se to slavery but to the very poorly handled post war reconstruction, a lot of which comes back to Johnson, a lot of which comes back to Lincoln ding for electoral opportunism. Rather then, who would be a good precedent and try again You see so much of that in presidential politics right. This is

in over well, mainly through a kind of electoral politics lands. Whether that's o dispersion will help me in my home state or away like the message that it sends, or this kind of like superficial coalition of politics Elizabeth Warren will make the left, happy or Comma Harris will make african Americans happy, and I We do think it's not like totally put politics aside and just pick someone you think you're smart, but think about the substance. Which is Europe that person will be a member of your administration, because the person is very likely to become a future democratic party. Nominee rights and that's not just because presents die right is. Why is Joe Biden the nominee now he has a lot of virtues as a politician, but it's obvious that, like if Obama had picked up by back in two thousand and eight there is no way by would be the Romany in twenty Twond, unlike

the reality that Joe Biden should be thinking about when he fix this choice is like who would be a good standard bearer for the future? You know so I think that's why, like, if you're left wing it, it makes a lot of sense to be pushing was with wine with Paul based arguments that dont a hundred percent makes sense, because what is most important is the substance are, if you, like others with wine, if you think she'd be good press and getting her maid VP should be a high priority. The decision is often made for sort of not group reasons, arguments are being made on her behalf that they themselves are not that great and do its work that there is a lot of political science and survey. Evidence on this, and as far as we can tell vice presidential picks, do not affect national voting. There is some evidence and I dont think its efforts.

Wrong any more, but it is the air, so you would want to at least I consider it they could affect Homestake pulling rights if they could affect Homestake outcome. So You know you might want to Peck Tammy Baldwin in Wisconsin Cause was content, is really important or Richard Whitmer in Michigan. The problem with doing that not so much with Gretchen Whitmer is governor, but but with hammy bald in whose a senator is it for the exact same reason that you would care about winning their homes state, because our home state is purplish, Udall elusive, senator a democratic senator from that state, and so I got knocked out or doesn't knock out cause. Tammy Baldwin is, to my knowledge, being bedded for the very least seriously considered, but that that does create real questions on the margin like you're making Joe Biden, the agenda somewhat less likely to succeed to pick up vice president to to help him when, when this programme be a pretty soon,

fact, whereas Comma Harris and Elizabeth Warren sort of whatever happens with em in pulling it Massachusetts, California not play, and so it is just pretty unlikely that either of them will be a huge effect. I mean I've heard people say like I think, Rachel Bit Coffer says, like the presidential pack will decide the election. But like I just I don't think that's what the evidence here suggests. So then you get, it is question I do think Joe Biden gets a lot of what we are saying here, like my understanding of like how he about this process is he's perfectly aware that he's very old he thinks of himself as a transitional figure well think about Joe Biden. I think that is helpful. Sometimes it he's a reasonably self aware person, which is why he is very open. Telling very unusual forms of coalition in politics at other candidates are not as open to like the Bernie Sanders taskforce, is in and other things like Joe Biden has a sense of who Joe Biden is and who he is it, and

One thing Joe Biden is somebody's been around american politics for so long that he just takes it all very seriously. You if you pay the debates, you would often have somebody on the stage making like a very expansive executive authority argument. They would clearly have just been good politics for Joe Biden who supported whatever that end was to say I would do that too, but he would go off on the sort of thing about how wasn't constitutional and executive can't do that. Like Joe Biden takes a stuff he's a very earnest about government, as I think he is trend, think about who will do the job? to end the Joe Biden, is a centre left guy right? He's? Not I mean Elizabeth Warren never like took them Knife to him and the way people expected her too. Given their long running fights of bankruptcy and ultimately Joe Biden ended up supporting her bankruptcy bill, but she's like a lot more left than he is, and whereas a cobbler Harris is actually a little bit more in the Joe Biden LINEAR

they'll, probably also more left in some important ways, and he is but certainly has more of his approach to politics. Unlike his theory of the electorate, cobbler Harris, isn't like a political, revolutionary she's, a coalition politician and others just a question of of of who they like I mean, there's quite like I like I'm, a big Elizabeth, Warren Fan and and always happened. Settings is incredibly capable politician both like the policy crafting an ideology crafting level, but also really, importantly, in our ability to manage and execute the work of government, but in terms of who is going to be a good vice. Is it in two and possibly even a good successor? It really matters who Joe Biden is willing to work with and bring into his administration in a real way such he don't get a situation. We have a frozen out vice president, as you have in many past administrations, and so like. Then, you also get into this issue which I can evaluate from the outside. Just who does Joe Biden feel comfortable with

Does he like working with? Would he actually want to have in the room? There's reporting coming out of the New York Times on today that Tammy Duckworth who's up Senator military better and not an amputee from a plane crash in Iraq that she is like a moving forward in the deep stakes in a pretty profound way that she's been great in the interviews with them their bidding her pretty soon so this could also end without a more surprised, peccary somebody, the Joe Biden, really likes and just would really want it to be there. Somebody he was really good passing power to, but also has this. How is gonna be thinking more immediately, sharing power with yeah? I mean an interesting thing about about by no more, why don't percent right it off. Although I mean I, I grew do but that the questioner styles, but suddenly. There wasn't present some much during buttons career as a senator was the text

energy industry as like such a thing right, such as such a kind of force in politics and society and at least like what I've heard some reporting, some people who know him and who knew the Obama White House is that he did not share some of the Obama teams, enthusiasm for the technology industry as well as a thing, and that was in part, a personal level, you no more than a policy level that. It has made him much more open to sort of laughed policy. Critiques of big tat, then. He was necessarily of like left policy critique of the credit card industry, which was from a state that he represents and that was such a specific flash point between him and Warren was that at the time she was a bankruptcy law specialist,

at the time he was a senator from a state one of whose major homestead employers was a credit card issuers and that you know these are defined only. I wrote a big piece wedded like hanging there also relationship around this narrative arc, but, like the world is doing it it moved on its like a long time since Biden was a senator from Delaware and also a long time since I was with wine, was it was a bankruptcy attorney suit there are certain places there weren't, where I think they might connect depending on if he wants to take in that direction. Personally, I've been undertaken with the Baldwin idea. I was glad to see this this times article, but then I did try it I myself because it's like they re all the reasons I could give for. Why really liked the ten Baldwin idea were sort of mega narrative reasons. You know like

her life story and her family story is such a great american story. You know, like one parent immigrant, the other parents is like descended from the Mayflower served in wartime. Wood was injured, was the first senator urgent to give birth. While serving under your talk it. You met your toilet, heavy Duckworth, not Emmy Baldwin. Yes, did, I say, Duckworth no, but does not mean that we know what you mean. Yes, ok, but then the usual number of Tammy is for a vice presidential, there's a lot of Tammy's in. There is definitely the club since we have ever gotten to having a Tammy in a national ticket.

Did you give him? This is a global or any of those reasons, like good reasons, and they all reasons to think the Tammy Duckworth might be a good presidential candidate in the future, possibly just like she has a call story, but then I am begging. Ignorance like this is not a criticism of her, but, like I'm, actually know that much about like what does she think club, but does she do she's not on the list of senators? I've had the chance to sit in Iraq is and talk to them about. She doesnt have a super clear policy profile on on anything similar ever glue back around till I get like you should really think about like people's ideas, and even I feel like the the impulse to like say, reject Stacy Abrams on the grounds that Erasmus and thick enough I mean, I think that that like sounds high minded, but I would like also look beyond if there's somebody whether it's her or like a mayor

some city or any body that, like I don't know like how much to people really care about these resume type. Is she sighed? I think I host Trump. We can have asserted different bar refer for how we think about like who is called if I'd be? I think that thing that ends up in a lot of their heads right now. I know that within the biting campaign and people giving them advice there, just like a constant watchword do not pick a Sarah Palin, but I think people conflate Sarah Palin, like total lack of capability for the job within experience. Yet she was not a crazily inexperienced peck. She was the governor of Alaska, whereas Ecstacy Abrams, who like just like she, is not as high like she does not have a higher position as issues in a more red tape and other Democrats, but by their very nature. That, like makes her like that, gives her a different perspective on the country that is may be valuable for national ticket stays. Abrams

is incredibly incredibly capable. I have like a lot of politicians. I've interviewed a lot of the politicians on this list. Abrams is certainly in my view, like among the best on this. She is like. There is a lot of death there like say, Europeans. Resume was fine, like I think, of that you're right. That's my point or forget she, the mayor and then she was the governor of the state, the promise her interview with Katy Kirk, made her seem like an idiot and like sitting rooms, I mean you can also have critiques apart, but like her interviews, a fantastic, so you know yet, and so I do so, they don T make pick may make but buddy. I think the question really that Biden should be thinking about, and probably is thinking about, is like first and foremost who is he willing to share power with, because that's gonna be really port in and thinking about, like who's gonna be prepared to be President

the person who is actually heavily involved in a presidential administration is going to be the person prepared to be president like there's no better training than to be a heavily involved. The vice president. Could be number one he's going to not is going to gotta, be somebody who does not want to walk out of the room and then which is like been the norm for much of american history and a number to like who does, he think would be capable of stepping. In Like quickly, if need be, and after him, if he be- and you know like he should he should not worry so much about the politics of it, because I have to be at is that unless it makes a disastrous pick, Allah Pailin, the politics of it, are or find awesome. Ok, I'm so, let's outlets, let's rapid up their face, Ezra thanks to our sponsors, as always, and thanks to outdo Sir Jeffrey gown, and we will be back on Tuesday.