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The World's Worst Club


Sarah and Matt are joined by Dara Lind for a discussion of the United fiasco, Trump-era immigration enforcement, and pre-K's surprising health benefits. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This we support, is also sponsored by Nature Box, gotta, nature, Baxter, Comstock weeds for fifty percent off your first order, I'm detained. Ask you, I think, are ask your answer. Questions in fell. Lower complain of every sort of the weeds boxes, Policy- podcast, I'm Matthew, Iglesias, joined by my colleagues, Sir Cliff and Special guess, STAR Darlin Dora is once again playing cookie mysterious. Where is that I don't know they do all day. I do now, but if you enjoy as reclined content, you can't see him. Yes, he will be there in person with mad, and I at we fly, which is coming up next week on April eighteen, three self tickets have you can get them at vocs that clumsy less weeds live? love to see you there and of ease of exciting on live. Podcasting, yes, is gonna, be amazing
but even more amazing in some ways will be this recorded and mass distributed broadcast that that we are about to do. We got some interesting research on preschool at and public health and we're gonna talk about new developments in migration enforcement policy, but we had a kind of interesting moment that this week, where for it fails to me like the first while the like dominate news story was not something about like Donald Trump yeah two thoughts, I felt a little quiet and you see that on an airplane somewhere in the Middle West, things are getting pretty why things are getting hot that's what we're don't you worry about this, this United Fight, which had a passenger who was sitting in his seat and then was told he had tat. He had to leave to make room for crew members who we're gonna be sent to Kentucky instead
he refused and was was dragged off by members of the Chicago Police Department to similar rough them up pretty badly. I mean his is bleeding from from his face and and of course, in the modern world, and what makes all the difference in these incidents is that you have people with little cellphone cameras and videos upon on twitter, and so you have this Combination of either of these I serve shocking images. I mean I've. I've been in larger airports had never seen a guy get gonna like raft up by car, but also something that, but we have all experienced, which is being super annoyed at the airport. At any
managed to like bring together this sort of horrifying edge case with this everyday annoyance and people have been like fired up four days of animated airline City Roadmap right about, while why this is able to happen in the airline industry? Governance does not like people here. Airline industry? A lot and like ever, you Hawkins through, like your case, relates to what it is about. Airline industry like that, though, the wonky take on this news that lets us I mean you know, there's a lot. It is it out. If you think about industries that people hate right, airlines are high up, their cable companies are high up there and what most of these kinds of hated industries have in common is very high, fixed costs and very low variable costs right, so wiring, a neighborhood for firehouse cossack ton of money once you ve done that
like letting somebody watch tv is super cheap buying an airplane is incredibly expensive. Even flying an airplane from Chicago to Kentucky costs a lot of money. One Passenger more or less makes almost no difference in the cost right so like a half empty plane is not half as cheap to fly as a full plain. And that gives rise to industry practices that people do not like it. It's hard to compete in those industries like you can just do a start up airline because it would cost a fortune and it courage. Has the company is to play a lot of mind games with their customers at which people don't like, and in the airline contacts get a one that lots of people jump to? Is that if they can manage to sell more tickets than there are seats on the plane
will he go. Do that and just figure that in most cases, some one or other will not show up and it'll be fine or you'll, be able to you, no pay somebody off relatively cheaply to to get them to go elsewhere, and this is the kind of thing that like if it ever happened to you if you ve ever been involuntarily bumped, but it happened to me once and is like The most outrageous thing you paid money for a seat on the plane, and now you just can't get on, but even just sit around like the plane is delayed because they're trying to find someone to take a two hundred dollar voucher and you like, like what the fuck you guys doing you like regular businesses. You can't run that way where they give. You sell somebody a car you to give them the car, and they
airline industry doesn't doesn't work that way and they have their reasons, but it's like inferior. So I wonder if part of this doesn't have to do with the reason that airline customers are participating in the market right. You kind of have to groups of people who buy seats on aeroplanes. One of them is but who are travelling for business a lot therapy customers their use to the way things work if they get delay or bumped yeah gonna, be kind of a pain in the bag. But it's something they understand to be part of their job, but because their frequent customers they're the ones where less likely to get both from flights? And then you have the people who are occasional airline customers who are buying a plane ticket to do so they don't normally do and for which they probably have a good reason, and in those cases those are both the people who are more likely to be bumped off planes because United doesn't need
to make sure that someone, you only flies three times a year uses their business, but there are also the people who feel like they have a good circumstantial case for being able to stay on the plane. I've noticed that even in cities that dont have you no super pushy possess, regions. People are really pushing airports because everyone has somewhere, they feel like. They really need to be so, in this case, a kind of developed in a dead. The conversation around this doctor who got removed from the plane developed into this weird ethics question of lake. Is it worth it to allow it doctor who needs to be. You know at the hospital tomorrow to stay on a plane and who has a more compelling moral case and that's not obviously something that an airline is equipped to do and making a calculation. But the people who are you no kind of stuck in these situations, feel like they are doing something special unnecessary and that that is being withheld. From now
toy retrograde point? Where did the internal class structure of the airplane is an unusual circumstances because normally you do you so different products to different people, but it'll be literally separated out ride. Like someone gets the nice car, somebody gets she car, but on the plane right you're all on this one metal too, but you have some people who are like seated up front in the first class. Some people need, in the back end. Even within the economy class, though, does this fine gradations of the different status, and I mean I've experienced recently before I I had a kid. I used to travel a lot and I would I really enjoy travelling, and so I would play eagerly volunteer to you know: go like do a talk in Murfreesboro Tennessee and get two hundred fifty dollars, but also just rack up more airline miles, and I had my you know whatever STAR alliance status, and so
I've never bothered me because I was immune as a high status. Fire is immune to any kind of bumping, but also I was often as you are saying that are doing things for no reason right I mean if I was writing for first slate and working remotely and doing a talk. If I could swing I have allowed you and a night no tell to come back the next day. You know. Sometimes I would I would just take it. Ray is like who cares now if I'm travelling is usually with a toddler, its typically too like see family do some kind of special event and it's like the stakes are way higher, but by value to the airline has completely collapsed because I'm
I'll, just like the unwashed masses with the regular tickets and is a much more. It is like inverted ride like it seems like it would be so much better to like boot, the like Calo, twenty something doing work trips for no reason then, like the family, you know trying desperately to make it to it, but that does not deserve the business. It is now. The voters should work rate. Does a year twenty year old self, soon be a lot more willing to take it than your current like dad as with the time I mean I couldn't get it s, not about just not the involuntary right, but bang, reason have been voluntary. Bumping happened was that they didn't have a taker on about your level that, as far as we know, lake I've seen reported a few places, including in Europe, uses that there's a statutory cap on how much airlines,
something like thirteen fifty, but they were way below that they weren't rhetoric. As I know the higher better to kind of bump me, I was a little bit like the voucher economy itself has become a little bit dysfunctional right. So the airlines. Do you know if they give you these voucher, so they say they're going to and do you then find that it's a lot harder in practice to redeem them than you might think? It's not even like gift certificate that you can discuss users that weird blackout dates. Things like that, and once people start to hear from friends that ono these vouchers or bad you can get a systematic collapse in the system. Has people may be dont? Remember, oh, I heard speak.
Typically, that the Delta vouchers were bad, but the american vouchers and more generous. There's something called Gresham's law and economics that that bad money drives out good, and so it's like once you put this debased vouchers out there in the system. Everybody doesn't want vouchers, so you want to devalue your own vouchers, and I mean I don't know how much that played in exactly this situation. But the airlines, I think, would probably collectively be better off if there was a rule that they actually had to offer people hard cash compensation, because at any given moment it sort of in your incentive to cheat because airlines have good reason to want to overbook. They should want to have a good way to get volunteers off and soda. Guaranteeing that you're gonna get real money and meaningful, This is one of the other things going on. That is gonna, be like some long term. Discounting right could think I could use a cash right
like of United. I was on a flight, I'm frightened going to a conference that was over on United in their offering four hundred dollar voucher, and I think it would have been different like forty dollars cash, that I could awake, gone and done something fun in D C and, unlike left the next to a book with IE, you know about yours. I think it's both the combination of not knowing what Well I'll, be it was used them a dumb blackout dates but also like I don't really know one may next trip is
no United will have a good fair like there's. So much were uncertainty, and you know short term is of course good for United. If they can pay people often vouchers they forget about, but long term. You know their better off if they can get people off the planes its working in this particular case. It wasn't an overbooking. I guess the fight was sold out, but the issue was that they decided they had to get some crew members onto the plane because they need them in position in in Kentucky, and it is worth saying here that the sort of broad conduct of this is that running an airline is hark right. You can't just waste money by having tons and tons and tons of extra airplanes and highly trained pilots and an airline crew just laying around everywhere. You have to serve or you want to serve some smaller cities like Louisville that you're, just necessarily
knock and have that many flights into Louisville from anywhere in particular, and you have to deal with the whether you have to do with accidents yesterday, with crowding in the airspace. Sometimes stuff happens, and it seems like United had a rough weekend in which they had some fights cancelled, so they had to rebook people, say wind up with a lot of overbooking and they wound up with some of their crew. None position and you ve gotta get these for people to Louisville arose. You can have to cancel a whole flight and incoming is way way way more than four people up. So they obviously did not handled as well. As I think they're CEO eventually came around two, but it's a legitimately difficult enterprise and there's a certain amount of time pressure in the nature of an airline network. You need to get people not just to where they're going, but you need to at least try,
then, where they're going so that they can get on new playing land. I learned there's other things going on. I learned once from an airline engineer, someone who does not the actual like mechanical engineering, but the time engineering you're also getting charge for the amount of time or players on the tarmac retraining. To minimize the amount of time or planes are on the ground and it just gets like real difficulties. There's a whole area you do engineering around how to scheduled flights and how to make this really complex thing actually right, which is why the question you know for me kind of becomes obvious Lee there are ways in which everyone can agree united as handle this very poorly, but why it was actually being filmed was not the behaviour of United in place as the heavier of Chicago Police Department. Employees and you know it's as someone who's Lena done, a little work on police dealing with difficult situations and escalation. You know that was pretty far.
Field of what any officer is taught in the academy. That is the appropriate level of forced to use for someone who's passively resisting. But in those kids Is there being taught that the primary in the primary goal of the interaction is to keep everyone safe? In that case, Jakarta PD was being called in not to keep everyone safe, but to get the plane off the ground. And quickly. It was being held in essentially in the service of you're, not just United business objectives, but also the broader efficiency and safety of everyone else on the plane, and that's not something that public safety is usually considered to include and created. This weird distorted situation where an inappropriate level of forest was necessary for this goal. That police aren't you he's supposed to be helping accomplish. It is worth saying I mean you, it did not go quite as virus, so these airplane videos, but there was like a big Justice Department report, the scope of police violence practices that I would say found that there was a pattern of miss behaviour and right
five of levels. Yes, certainly were thing that, while de escalation models are common in police academy, in many departments take a relatively lackadaisical attitude to what they actually expect officers to do in the field, because their this baseline assumption that if you are an officer on the b that you know what's best to keep yourself safe and that's the most important thing more. So than the safety of anyone who might be dealing left, I'm sitting with interesting right is that out side of a fairly narrowly circumscribed set of situations. Most Americans, in most circumstances, are just fairly compliant people
and it is relatively rare that we actually put to the test the like invisible bounds of contract law and legality right alike like what would happen if I went to Panera and just sat down and in order anything and refused to leave when I was asked like I don't I don't know, you know, because I've never done that, and because nobody does that exactly and people are not really trained to deal with those kinds of situations, because they they don't happen at stuff happens at airports. You know all the time, but not this. You would expect on shore with the staff on the plane. Thought was going to happen when they told this guy he had to leave was that he was gonna leave and that he was probably going to argue with them and be kind of mad, but that there was no question of like how are we going to force him to leave the plane, because
Most people are just like they do what they told and we don't. We don't like really try to see. Well, how are we going to enforce the property rights that United has over this airplane because it is it just doesn't come up on another level. They can say that a lot of the reason that people are so frustrated with the airport in Spirit and right now in general? Is that so? nine eleven airports have been the one place that middle class white people have to deal with the kind of every day surveillance. And inconveniences that you know people who are caught gently surveillance than over policed communities deal with every day. So I think that that's that's another angle on which this was kind of ready to set fire is theirs indignity that a lot of Americans feel when they go through an airport that they dont have to feel the rest of the time and that's the point that You know many people made in conjunction with this that it's not necessarily you know, like you said it's not the first time the Chicago Police Department,
excessive force on someone. It's not the first time that some wine simply for refusing to comply with an order, has been treated as an imminent public safety threat, but rather Emmy needs. This is like when middle class white people slip into like stop in frisk territory is when you enter, and airports Flint, almost fear feeling like a little more entitled cause you pen, you know honey the dollars to enter this place rights you, like you, ve put down like Darwin, you wanna go somewhere. You actually spent a lot of money to be in this circumstance. Anything like it. It's a combination of Ecuador, mentioning in the fact that, like you, you feel like you're in this like privilege club, but it also club that's a terrible place to be granted the right level of world roused caused the worldwide club that you played hundreds of dollars to enter. If you nothing like me. You know sometimes you wanna snack and if what's a wound snack on his junk food, you gonna eat junk food and it's not great.
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You do you know where what we have here derive, and I think we should talk about immigration for spent under Trump. I think the political class has spent a lot of time focused on stuff. Trump has not been able to get done by the sort of objective circumstances for a president who wants to have harsher immigration enforcement and immigration enforcement agencies who have been agitating for harsher immigration. Foresman is you know it's like the downhill downhill running of of of the policy make world and, and things are, things are really happening. Re rate I mean, thing is that, just to reiterate, you do not need legislation to be harsher on unauthorized immigrants to be. The other kind of analogous policy on which these hump administration really has been moving forward. Aggressively is restricting oversight of police departments, which is something else that they don't need legislative authority for because they already have you no executive branch power,
you do at some point need funding the immigration enforcement agencies are kind of rapidly run out of money and the extent to which supplemental funding for This is going to be included in be you know. Next government funding bill is kind of percolating as an issue, but it doesn't take a whole lot for both the Department of Homeland Security, which does the kind of front line immigration enforcement, both at the border and in the interior, the Department of Justice who is both responsible for running immigration courts, which is where people go through. You know in the process of getting deported in most cases, and can use in a federal criminal courts to prosecute unauthorized immigrants. So booth, Those are really stepping up over the last few weeks, both kind of from top down directives many General Jeff sessions, released a memo yesterday. That instructed all? U S, attorneys, to make a point of prosecuting p
for illegal entry and re entry and to come up with a plan, for you know putting misdemeanor prosecutes. On first time, illegal entrants, so that they could be charged felonies later on, as well as a bunch of other immigration related crimes that were essentially use all the tools in your toolbox to go after people for being an authorized in federal court. What is the link? But what is the point of right, like white? Where is that so you're caught up in some situations? Do not here legally you're in this system like what is the like cash value of profit? cutting you for a crime verses, whatever else might happen. So the fundamental problem, with removing Eleven million unauthorized people from the country is immigration. Courts have a massive backlog. If you have.
Not previously been deported from the? U S and you art, caught within a certain distance from the border or you are caught within that distance. But you ve been living here for several years. You have the right to an immigration court hearing before your deported, and that means that over the last several years, because Congress realized Congress wanted to put more funding to immigration forcemeat, so it put it radiation ass, it did Put it toward deal where the immigration courts were, and so over the entire Obama administration V court backlog went from a year a year and a half to two and a half years and now a long time resident in Chicago right, that's two and a half year that they are either going to be out in the community, where in theory they could have scorned and not show up for their hearings, or that's two and a half years that you have to keep them in detention which gets extremely expensive. You know, even it
you're cutting costs by putting them in driving the Obama administration is trying to speed this up to some level, the put a little bit of the wanted to put money toward it and they couldn't get a ton of funding from Congress. There are a lot of openings for immigration judge. Right now. The other thing that the Obama administration faced was that in twenty fourteen and then again to a lesser extent and twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen You had all these central american children and families coming in who even they were coming in for the first time because they had asylum claims. Many of them also had to go through immigration court hearings before being deported, so they had to shift a bunch of resources these unaccompanied children and families if they were going to get them out quickly, which state it was necessary to kind of deter future people from coming in. So you have the backlog re right, so that's kind of the big rock that needs to either get you no kind of pulverized by hiring more immigration judges telling them
can't be very generous in giving people. Continuance is telling them to be super strict and not giving anyone relief, or even rounded right and one of the ways of reading around it is by expanding the extent of the accept do you like, oh you're, not entitled to an immigration court hearing, and there should regulations coming down soon about that People are worried that it's going to allow anyone who caught anywhere in the Eu S too, if they can't prove they ve, been here for a couple of years to get to Portugal, here and we don't know for sure, that's what's going to happen, but that's kind of the rumour that's been going around another way to get. Round? It is to use federal criminal court, which is not as backlogged. Is immigration courts generally charging convict you have a crime and then once you ve been convicted of a crime. You are, if you know what it is, it is much more easy to just kind of ship, you, through immigration court in in a jailer present airport,
tat. You wrote of peace. I really like a few weeks ago about the climate in hispanic communities in our stand where You wrote about two percent, the sense of fear, the scare about check points which it sounds like May or may not exist in and when the things it made me think about is how even without policy change, you can actually really change people's lives. Just would like the car met and the rhetoric I was hoping you could talk a little bit about what's going on in the communities that you report on in, like how does it wasn't there wasn't any policy change, but people's lives are changing just because of what they are hearing release an apple.
Regular yeah. I mean I feel, like the kind of the link between that and what we ve been talking about, is a peace that I wrote this week on. Arrests of court houses where a lot of immigrants and whether their therefore to show up because they ve been charged with a crime or their there to testify as a witness or going intellect, get a restraining order against a domestic abuser. In several high profile cases. Ass agents have been waiting for them and have caught them when they're going to further day in court, and so that's created an effect where immigrants don't want to go, get restraining, orders their refusing to cooperate with police and criminal indications, because the fear of ice being there is pervasive, even if the actual arrest you know, even if there have only been a few dozen arrests at port houses, any given interaction of the courthouse could become an interaction with ice and that's kind of the dynamic there. You know there are particular rumours lake checkpoints, but what's really behind those rumors
is ice, isn't engaging in these indiscriminate sweeps, they're, not rounding up entire apartment complexes full of immigrants. They are tweaking their rules of engagement, so to speak. So that their are cases in which someone there not targeting can get picked up. For the most part, they are still targeting individual people who either have a criminal record or who have been ordered removed in the past. Those are still super sympathetic cases. In many cases, often their people have been here for twenty years, who have children who, if they have a criminal record, it was a deal from twenty years ago, but they do fit particular criteria. I have not seen any cases of ice going after some when he has no prior order and no criminal record, etc, etc. But their rhetoric is Anyone who has done anything criminal, which includes entering the Eu S illegally or using a fix social security, number Israel,
verbal and is a priority. So even if, in practice it unlikely that ices knocking on your door, you can actually say that they are not going to. You can't say that if they do, you have any way to fight back so what's happening. Is there have been really pervasive reports of ice, roadside I point in their haven't, been any examples of them. You know there are these fears of even the idea of an ice roadside checkpoint that literally you drive by, like everyone is getting stopped Ray the right here right, that's what it looks like has happened is that ices started kind of pulling people that they have targeted over on the side of the road rather than confronting them in their homes. And people have seen those and assumed that there's a roadside checkpoint going on. So you know these rumours Kenneth escalate with extreme repay. De in the age of social media. There very hard to tempt down with its extremely hard to prove a negative and advocates often in the position of trying to give peace
information by saying, no, these things that you're saying are happening aren't happening, but at the same time the advocates can't tell people know its irrational to be afraid, because it is. Perfectly rational, and so any kind of, Fear paranoia that's leading people too. In the most extreme cases, in over few sleep, their homes refused to allow their children to go to school, refused to go to court in or even to pursue justice. That is very hard to externally in over move. It's not something that can be removed in the current policy. Climate and ice is at best, indifferent right now, Germany, Ireland, and indeed this is a real case- were you know a lot of the sort of like lol trump stuff like this. She was on the other foot like precisely because the administration does not communicate
early, precisely because Trump is not trustworthy, does not like follow through on commitments in a clear way, speaks very broadly and loosely about different kinds of things. People are not sure that they understand what the rules are right, that the eat that that they are clear, creating a climate of uncertainty, and doubt that is out there were rumours, are flying around. There is not a lot of credible clarifications from leadership anywhere about what's happening, and you know I've spoken to people who, in our are refusing to leave their homes, and I get the sense that it is true that the people doing that are probably being more paranoid than they need to be. But it's
so true that the authorities in Washington are not upset that that has happened. Creative that leaves a certain number of the their cases. That would be hard to deport right people who are basically law abiding who are integrated with with? U S is in families things like that, but if you can drive them into a level of fear and despair that causes some of them to consider voluntarily cutting back to Mexico. That's like a win! For you know. The like Jeff sessions gave this speech yesterday that attract a lot of attention, because one particular rhetorical flourish, but he he's talking about criminals each time an Emma's thirteen he's talking about beheadings, but he's also given lots of speeches that are just like there's people here, working as roofers and that's bad for
Erica to have a guy from excellent work as a rule, for it isn't worry, Jeff sessions, if foreigners of any class or any occupation or or at any time are just like wow America's scary. I don't want to be there like. He thinks. Foreigners are scary and they should be here and that's a very different leadership attitude from what we had no in the recent past, the I mean, there's. Definitely that there's also I mean the unauthorized immigrant communities learned and under the Obama administration that wipe in Washington are saying, is happening, isn't necessarily what's actually happening on the ground and that they can't use well. But the president said this wouldn't happen as an actual defence in court and just like you know just sessions as a matter of ideology, believes its affirmatively good thing. If immigrants aren't so
their children to public schools, because he doesn't believe that they have their in other. They ought to be using public resources anyway. Many of the ice field agents believed that the power to arbitrarily select people for deportation is a very important deterrent aspect that people should not feel you're in the United States, without papers, and so even if, in practice, many of the cases that they're going after in a pre selected and targeted the ability to make anyone feel that they could be supported at any time they see as a variant law enforcement, keep ability was taken away from them under Obama. Bombing has since been restored. Worthing, I realized in the past few months of covering Trump is what a powerful policy uncertainty can be, and I think this is a cross- a lot of areas because trunk humanism- and we didn't really expect we dont fully nobody's going to do you don't beat. I cover the most healthcare there's. A lot of uncertainty like do they want.
It s explode or not, and uncertainty is not the same as not making policy decisions that it took the decision to not be clear about what you're doing the decision to issue confusing statements, which I run into all the time on my beads that changes behaviour it's different, then you know just not making a policy decision actually sewing uncertainty. I think that's a lot of what's going on here, that it is essentially using uncertainty as a policy making tool so all eat away there some stuff. You can't change through Congress because that's really hard there's a heck of a lot you could do by making people feel very unsure about your policy actually, as in that case, is how people plan when they they dont, have certainty about. You know what to expect in them
extra few years that it really is eat. I did something I didn't really understand much during a bomb restoration, but has become more clear to me, like how much uncertainty can be used to induce certain to induce outcomes that you don't have the power to create through legislation. You I mean, I think, is worth noting that the broad theory of this as mad eluded too, is that a certain critical mass of people become so miserable that they leave and we do not have evidence that that actually works. The cases in which its been fried either had struck down by the courts or succeed in making people absolutely miserable, may or may not have succeeded in them leaving and even if they did, they left to other states. They didn't necessarily leave the? U S so on that level. This is an untested at best policy on the level of does it
succeed in making people suffer, who maybe you don't believe should be able to take part in public life? It's absolutely successful in some of what this is. This has reminded me of back in Alabama twenty eleven, a law that had the same kind of cool drastic, says the Arizona law that everyone focused on in twenty ten actually went into a fat and actually with went a little further than the ears on law and the effects were just on school enrollment were massive on public health clinics were massive varies certain unscrewing from public life that happens to unauthorized immigrants themselves and to kind of the? U S citizens where their children, the other people in their communities who are worried about people getting found out
That is a. It is a way in which immigration enforcement works. The question is whether that is a desirable outcome, even for the people who think that unauthorized immigrants should have no right to Ano any kind of public, swimming or health, or any of that. If they have U S, innocent children, if even should those parents be deported, children, are going to remain in the country. What good does it do to the population to have had several years of U S, citizen children not being allowed to participate in these public institutions, You know I mean the others, I would say a broad thing of debt were seen cross. The Trump years is that institutional culture in agencies matters a lot, particularly when you have the somewhat confusing
high level policy press as and that isn't always obvious. You know you you need to you- need to know these things, but, like there are certain financial regulatory agencies out there, that when O bomber was president people from the Treasury Department spend a lot of time, can alike walking across the street and been in a cage guys what's up like that's like, let's find some cases and they were kind of compliance culture, compliance culture it in? What? Where would they want to do is see? People are filing, therefore, worms saved. The forms are okay stamp up, go at the door Ice is evidently not like there did. The people who work in that agency would like to believe that enforcing immigration law is incredibly important and, right they really good and that they really want to go out there and do it. You know like with a lot of gusto and why
the Obama administration. Obama was projecting the attitude. I would say very clearly that catching and deporting illegal immigrants per SE was not a super important thing for him. Personally, he did not value it. Did not think that the people guarding our workplaces from undocumented nannies were like the real heroes of the republic. So he wanted to get these guys with guns, jails in handcuffs and use them to catch criminals, who he regarded as a serious problem, and there was a constant tension between what he would say. He wanted them to do what the letter of the law was and what they themselves wanted. The intention is an understatement. There there was less
Two years after Obama came into office, the ICE Agents Union filed a motion of no confidence against its director, and it only got worse from their way and they d campaign very vocally for Trump, specifically and and this is actually a little unusual and the federal government to have an agency. Whose staff is quite so vocal and so Gung HO about the agencies mission use. You seem a little of it in the opposite direction and in the EPA versus Scott prove it? The people who sign up there like they really believe in the environment, they believe in environmental regulation. They don't want to be kind of handcuffed, but it's a key part of this story right if you, if the issue was that Trump had to like mobilise a kind of
different force or a group of people who you you can imagine a group of people who really liked Obama's rhetorical policy who were like this is great. We ve been promoted off this, like dumb immigration beat and like now we're going after the worst of the worst and violent offenders, think this is, it is that how they see it and it's it's always struck me, as I had a little bit that, like the federal government, has these like a fence, specific law enforcement agencies link in a city police department. You can just say, like we're: gonna shift people until homicide cases And you can only do that, and this is why the really interesting case is gonna. Be the white happens at? U S attorneys offices, because, U S attorney's office have surely not only. Can the people easily be shifted from one type of crime to another, but they have traditionally had a lot more autonomy cause they're, not themselves. You note. The federal government can direct people
or at Deirdre headquarters in DC to prosecute particular crimes by U S. Attorneys are supposed to have a lot more autonomy in which crimes in their jurisdictions they prosecute and the last time that in DC try. Pull a power play on. U S, attorneys was under the Bush administration in that went very badly for them politically. So it's gonna be very interesting. See how these? U S, attorney's office. Is that don't have that same? You know institutional directive at all and Haitian, toward really wanting to catch unauthorized immigrants, how much compliance there is and where and what attorney general sessions does. If it turns out that the no western district of Illinois, or whatever is not super keen on spending all its time going after illegal entry case as an usually the sea who they pay
We have not actually seen many these jobs Phil right, but this is a rule were traditionally I mean a lot of people have come through viewers attorney posts and Ghana until a bigger things- and you know you normally think of an ambitious person in that kind of role- is seeking guenaud certain kinds of publicity, and you know that would normally me and you want to prosecute a terrorism case. You want to make a major organised crime case, a poetic Corruption case to say I like got this grandma said how men I got it. On a grandmother that have another. This is like it's not I mean it depends on. The stated depends how politics evolves, but at least traditionally I think it has not been the mentality of a typical. U S, attorney's office that
working as a sort of and run around in immigration. Court backlog is the way you are going to like be the next James call me right or or whoever Elsa. You know, Canada Positano was U S. Attorney been became governor viruses and he just its use and in most cases right, those institutions are going to want to aim for like more noteworthy, like higher fruit. I took on something big. But, on the other hand, sessions compared to a lot of the other trump bees is like a knowledgeable veteran of american politics, who, I am willing to believe, has given some thought to this kind of question, and you know well pick people in a sensible way. You read some of like you know, Steve Ban in or Gary cone antics of I had already now, but just as has been DC log time like a longer than us and
He really wants to get people sent home. I feel lucky he may make happen hello, listeners of the weeds, I'm Peter Kafka. I work for box media. I have a part cast of my own. It's called record media repeater Kafka. If you like the way, I think you, like, listening to the stuff I do as well. I've got an episode for you to try out its with and why you, Professor J Rosen, we did this literally on the eve of the Trump presidency. We talked about how the media should respond to Trump generous. What's now a famous idea, he suggests we stop talking to Kelly and Conway things are blue from there. I think that now my most popular podcast they'll, listen to yourself. You can go find it wherever you, fine, fine, podcast. I see you there. It's gonna white paper, another envy arbitrary. So this is a trio of researchers from New York University K hung a Casey, Draken and sharing clean.
Really interesting paper that trying to answer this question in research of all. Why pre case himself a pretty significant effect on long term outcomes, and we see this a lot of studies can of lifelong economic health benefits from attending Pre K and they're trying to get to the bottom.
Of what actually is the mechanism there and they couldn't stumble on this unique situation where New York in twenty four teen they made all four year old children eligible for a pre k in the city. So they could look at the kids who I'm right before and after the cut off and see. If there's any difference between those two groups and the thing that they find it is that there is really important and jam health interventions happening in that year, that the kids who are in the universal Preaching programme, they are more likely to be diagnosed or entreated with asthma, envision problem, so to get classes to get inhalers. One of the kind of interesting things they also look at is: if there is any kind of negatives dipping Imprecate, you think of being in a class followed in a little toddlers. Disease abounds, but I'm no increase in infectious diseases, injuries or doktor traps, and they also can have-
first grade wild Vienna. One theory could be yeah these things get caught in Pre K, but maybe you know eventually they just catch up. I first great and it doesn't turn out to be true. It seems like some of those diagnoses that are being made quite early, that there isn't a catch up, a factor it's not like. They would have just been caught another year later and new. They also make case here that, even if it was a year later, these are really important, develop until it years to not be able to see, for example, in Pre K is pretty damaging to learning anything. So I thought this was. I ran along the research on early education and how effective- and I like this particular paper in that it really pinpoint dead some the actual, tangible things that might be changing their allotted. This seems to not necessarily be about Pre K. It, sir,
often what kids are learning but more of getting into a system where people are going to catch these things and system. There are looking at medicate claims a system of health care and having access to this kind of treatment that parents, just you know, for whatever reason, were not actually bringing proactively to the doktor. But once there in classroom with a teacher noticing less, these problems were suddenly getting some level of treatment, and I thought it was a little weird. They pitched it s like a. We have found the explanation of why Riquet has long term benefits, rather than just we found that pre Kay
as these health benefits, which seems like a more defensible claim because they were there with your envy. Our claims, I mean precisely because this New York Recap system is new. We don't actually know whether their long term educational benefits of this big expansion, and it will take us a long time to find evidence on that and it seems like justice Both a factual claim and as a political intervention in New York City what's interesting about this, is that they have found that there is a clear short term health benefit to this new thing, which is maybe a good reason to keep doing at and it'll pass through them bit in effect, for more than two years before we can see, if there's a long term educational games, because you know I mean they took his hat to grow up. But it's like it's nice to see that something good is is being complex, mean the thing about
this study is because it was looking instead of using directing woman data in a looked at the medicated roles and, of course, given what we are talking about in the previous segment and what I ve been thinking about last couple of months be. The kind of obvious question for me is to what extent is this a reflection of universal Pre K targeting the kind of people who are already in the system right? The fact that they didn't find you know an increase in Medicaid usage generally indicates maybe that While universal precarious, a good way to kind of catch children into a system and patched particular melodies earlier it, may not necessarily be functioning as away for families that may be have these existing social benefits that they aren't aware of a becoming aware of Pre K, because school is something that everyone is super where children need to go through and kind of getting picked up in the system that way which like yes, that's not the
in point of universal prepared by, given that a lot of you know one of the big questions in it social programme is eligible people who aren't using at it, you know it's an interesting data point to have, especially in a context in which there might be very good reasons that some you know that, maybe not during the lifespan of the study, which was kind of toward the end of the Obama administration, when unauthorized immigrants felt a little more secure, but it's entirely plausible that New York could see a decrease in universal, regain roman twenty seventeen, its plausible, that absenteeism will be higher, that kind of thing and the ways in which these benefits along to each other just helps create a disparity when someone isn't being fed into the system. To begin when yeah. Anything at all is buggies has always been a struggle with social programmes is getting everyone signed up. I think with Medicaid,
I don't know the exact number, but there's a really significant portion of people who are eligible for medicate benefits and for whatever reason in some places states make it hard to sign up, and that's one of the reasons are enrolled. I dont think New York is one of those places. New York has a very active medicate programme. They seem to want people to unroll at birth estates, overly complex paper work to actually say not building. That is one of things this in a bit it hard for this study to get around they do some controls around at is the fact that the people, While this is universal, access to prepare does not universal and roman prepay. It's not thing, you know the way the rest of elementary school is we're all kids. Are generally getting signed up that this is something you have to volunteer your kid into that you could be seeing some of those differences. The sharp between the parents or volunteering, their kids and pre K ends and the ones who you are not making. That decision
although I may put it on Roma, is a little bit different from medicate enrollment in the sense that there's nobody who is like unaware of the fact that, therefore, your old has to be like somewhere right enemies- and you know when we have a way of having one of the things you see with medicate Right- is that low income families who are not signed up for medicated, who develop an acute medical problem and up any emergency room and hospital staff which, like with like to be paid, is then like. Ok, well, we ve gotta, go get you in this way, but like child care, is like a daily medical emergency. Where, like something you have to do something. So I mean there's, there's a fair amount of people who don't take up these kind. Every preschool offers. But at least my understanding is that its normally like high end after outsiders, you know who have something they're paying for privately, that that they think
there is also some low end opting out I'm involved in a tutor in programme here in DC. We will get a lot of low income families and I think they notice is just the logistics of getting your kid. There is a big heard all to actually can rolling in irregular programmes. It is true, it's free day care, but you also till I get your kid there and they make sure they're there at a specific time, and at least the programme, I am involved in a lot of kids and dropping out cause there. And other places to be they can commit like being there to pick them up. I think that is one of their. My guess is not supported by did, but is that having some like low end and some high income drop off and people. I don't need to worry about it's more of the people who can't can commit to that reg another scheduling, not you're going out and which is why I want other threads that they didn't really pick up on in this study. What kind of alluded to in the literature that was interesting to me was the kind of social and behavioral negative effects that have been reported in some cases of previous programmes, and you know it seems too
That's largely a function of well. What's the alternative right. If you have kids you, because their parents can afford to take them to day carriages shoving them with the other neighbourhood, kids and the alternative. Is this universal prepay program that appears by all accounts to be very high quality class sizes are capped. You know, teachers appear to be well trained that their modeling positive social interaction. It's totally plausible that other cases. You know, kids, the alternative I'm going to be the kids are just being like allowed to run around on their own devices in Bali, each other and, if you'd, just kind of shoved them into an overcrowded prepay classroom that that behavior might happen and that you might actually have you know a poorly supervised prick. Might be more likely to give kids bad ideas about how this was interact. Their peers, who was reassuring. There's none uptake in injury. Isn't this study and they got less garrison hands out from having I? If you Long time ways listeners will remember when we looked at the cities of the Quebec preschool expansion,
deep high, where they went. They went very big, very rapidly. Try not to spend too much money and appear to have such a lot of sort of middle class kids into a fairly low quality like publicly provided a system which had some some I mean it had. The goal of that programme was to increase women's labour force participation and it succeeded in achieving that goal, but it turns out to have developmental side effects of work. There were not as positive. The new greek aid programme is much more like child focused, as as I understand it, and you know, seems to be achieving more of those those kind of gauze, because it costs
more money to closely supervised, tiny children, because it turns out there the wild, telling I d like wild beasts round jacked up together as an under control means they can run around and we will help you yeah. I don't know about that. But yet thank you for listening that you dollar four for joining us end up having us out with the with the immigration. If you want even more, we insert this wasn't enough. You want to continue the conversation. We have a great new Facebook group that is growing rapidly. I think we're about twenty five hundred members. It's really great at the great conversation of nerdy policy details. We ve been sharing. Some of the books were reading in their I'm were giving away free tickets to weeds lies. There's a raffle. You can fill out right now, so go ahead,
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.