« The Weeds

Trigger warning: Discussion of White House chaos and political correctness


Vox senior politics reporter Jane Coaston joins Ezra and Matt to talk about Trump turmoil, political correctness and the latest research on the state of the parties.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
God I'm on a college campus. Of course it's getting weird and strange. We have a yearly hash bash wishes celebrating marijuana. Of course, this is happening. It's an orbit alone will confer rather episode of the weeds and the path to be applied. As a network I met him. Glaziers address is usual on Tuesday by fine, Sir Clip is out reporting or unwanted she leather or whatever you call it think. It's burning. She lover. I think it's she's lighting her shoes on fire gotta, you report, I don't come valid woolly beyond you. Do it, because what you're doing is you're you're you're burning in offering to the reporting God. I thought it was to stay warm while you're out in the field of those we have seen your politics reporter, Jane Coastal, with us to talk over political correctness on campus Fgm. Talk about labour tells his latest paper breaking down where the two political parties stand in twenty eighteen, but we also wanted to talk about some
the chaos in the Trump administration? We we had a wild morning this morning, where I was walking to work, and I saw reports of wrecks tillers was fired. The remedies that's what happened. Long awaited right now, totally unexpected, but a little odd it came, it came with or without warning this morning, then not unexpected, but surprise. Then the White House said that he had actually been fired on Friday in part. To knock down the supposition that tell her son was fired because he said mean things about Russia. Yesterday, but then the State Department has said very clearly on the record. The under secretary for public diplomacy has said, that tiller soon had no idea that this was coming, that he found out about it from Donald Trump Tweet, apparently not even from the Washington Post purse, alert, which is how I found out about it, but from the Trump tweet five minutes later that he was fired. You know completely without warning crazy of true
and this is one of these things were you know- accounts differ, it's gonna, be somebody's wording in somebody else's. But it's like it's hard to see why Rex tell arson and under Secretary of state for public affairs would be lying about this then tween, those two incidents. We found out that job- makin tee. Who is trumps body man was fired and escorted by security from the premises Monday, which is not good apparent he left his jacket, and so I had to go back and get it for him. There is absolutely no warning, and especially since he had it been with Trump since only fifteen and interesting John Kelly instituted a new security clearances regime after the Rob Porter bottle at I'm very curious to see if this is potentially related. I've already checked pace and to state so we'll find out? Can I read these statement from the Under Secretary Steve Goldstein, because
You never read a statement like this. After a firing of a major american political figure, I am astonished that this is an on the record named piecework. So this state Department, Undersecretary Steve Goldstein, the secretary Referring here to tell her son had every intention of staying because of the critical, progress made in national security, he will miss his colleagues at the Department of State and the foreign ministries his work with throughout the world. The secondary did not speak to the president, and is unaware of the reason, but he is grateful for the upper we needed to serve and still believes strongly. The public service is a noble calling we wish sex. designate Pompey, oh well, that is wild. That's that's banana they're. Not even pretending. Remember one Brooks tell us and had to guarding of a press conference, and the question was: did you call Donald the fucking moron and he's Ike.
I mean you know her hooker, my didn't say no. This is one of these things were he's not even pretending that there was a problem there is not even pretending that this is ok, but their say, clearly someone else is now putting their name to a statement saying he did not want to leave. He was not prepared. He has not spoken the president. He doesn't know why he was fired aside from everything else, given the Donald primary public profile before this was summit. Really good at firing. People he's very bad at firing people he doesn't like on the apprentice. You got five by Donald Trump, and he told you why that doesn't seem to happen. This is too firing sandwich beat the person in question never heard from Trump in the first place and its very using an especially with MIKE Pompiers coming in? It's been interesting kind of seeing the its reaction to that, how it's not that they dislike pompiers,
it's that there are not sure how this all happened in the first place, European tension that conservative political figures and conservative media world and its was to be a measure of we didn't like till her son, but we don't like this so we're just unhappy, but why would you be Happy with this word. Yes ever so it's worth the musical chairs continue. John Rex tell us in statements, as he doesn't know why he was fired. Trumped did not really explain, but he now that might come pale. Currently, the c I a director who you know is is quite light leave qualified for this job. I would not really. That is also say that might Pompey. Oh, I M in a busy he's been CIA director since from Spain and so he has experience now at the top levels of the national security safe, but he's not a well known. Figure internationally. Still it was a very unorthodox pack who had no familiarity with with
building, no relationship with the president, but the key for him was look. He has had discussions with secretaries of state and cabinet. Stirs all around the world for years as ceo of of X. On my computer is not someone who is known to two world leaders, particularly he was an army officer and then a business man, and he was recruited shorter by cope network. to be at how candidate in twenty ten. You want a pretty safe seat. There he served adequately. I would say in the has representatives for a few years he wasn't a central player where in the House Was it the kind of guy who would represent Rational republicans to foreign governments in anything in the secular state before tell us who is John Kerry Right the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, a former nominee of the Democratic Party for President and before that Heller
like that's who you like? That's? What Level, love legislator, you'd have to pick for that Bush pay two very experienced like farm Paul he professionals and in Congolese away said and Colin Powell. That was the Clinton pattern. It was Obama sort of went back to an older pattern of picking politicians to serve, but they were like the most senior and famous members of the Democratic party. Might Bumpo is not that replacement at sea. A has been picked, is Gina spell, is her name I'm so she had just been his deputy. She is best known for her work overseeing the the black sites. Torture programme under Georgia. Be Bush for destroying video tapes, it would have been evidence so that will An interesting confirmation. Hearing I mean Republicans, have the votes to get all this
I've done nothing. I would note is that I don't know, there's a reason to assume that which is only to say they may have the votes, but by the same token, the tiller send, was not informed There is no way that the legislative liaison work has been done to See does Rand Paul have problems with Gina Hospital. I mean thirty. They given that Republicans have fifty one votes in the Senate. John Mccain is extremely sick and hates torture, please understand importation right end and answer. Then your fifty ratio, if you hold every other Republican, you're, ok he's my pencil the Thai, but I just out, there has been a lot of work done there, but the do you wanna zoom out on this for a minute to say if this I'll feel I mean a week ago we were talking about Gary Comb, leaving right- and that was also a big departure that happened summoned unexpectedly, if this all feel
like a lot of people leaving it really is. Bookings has been keeping the numbers on this as of cone, leaving I'm doing this for memory, so I might be off by percentage point or two, but there's been a forty five or forty four percent turnover rate within the Trump administration among his key staff? Since he started that is higher than any other president that we have records for at this juncture. So one we are seeing more turnover, chop immigration and we ve ever seen before its now, even higher than that with till arson, and it's not Jesse's top people. I mean It is interesting that Gina hassles coming in and you see the smoothness of that in a way right. There able to name the next person right as they do, the other. The reason you seeing that it was somewhere like Gary Cone is that his deputy had quit months ago, german cats? and they ve been losing deputies all over the place within this administration has been a huge amount of turnover of the number two's which you normally don't see. The number two is normally wait out the number ones because they want to become the number ones, but the events action is lost,
Pd National Economic Council director is deputy domestic Policy council director is Deputy communication chiefs right. That's why I hope Hicks was not immediately replace it Dust Deputy national security advisers, people like DINA Powell or it's off the bunch of deputy chiefs of staff. You know the State Department was hollowed out under tell us, and I mean for all that Trump did not Pyrex Delos ended in a practically polite or respectful way. Rex Tillerson, terrible secretary of state is done, tremendous damage the organization he led. I should note for him going. But this illustration is in a state of people called staffed. else by always want to make the point that its management chaos, people do not want to work, tromp. They do not want to continue working for trumpet. They do not want to come and work for Trump, and also because Trump Disney resolve the ideological disputes spit in its administration. Honest running knife each other, because if they can get their person into a new staff position, they might be able to change the entire direction of american public policy. So this is a very
early, run administration and this concept chaos inside it is part of it. Yet I think It really goes to something that their what you were mentioning about, how people do not want to work for the administration. I do want to do not want to be associated with this, these administrations, and so I think that that goes to challenges that you're saying a cross cut up the policy landscape and you're. Seeing this with people Euro who have left months and months ago, who are just saying that the case was obvious and it was unworkable because Trump like seeing conflict between people, he likes it when people are hiding over things. If one person- as a and the other person says be. He doesn't want to have to make a decision he what some the battle it out and hopefully, with the person who says beaten just leave but that's not how you make policy, that's how you make pretty good television
members in a dark night returns when Joker like snaps our points of view and as I got room for one are. You in my organization has actually exact more or less chums management strategy, which you know that worked great for his ledger and does not work here. These are crazy atmosphere. Eggs of this another way to look at that this, slow roll over that you're, seeing here is that you know when Trump first came in as president. He was In it, we really unusually weak position for present right like deep in a kind of her where he had no retinue of lists gonna, who are qualified for high level government jobs and also where he did not have a depth of loyalty on Capital Hill right. There wasn't like enormous respect for Donald Trump on cabin hell, so the cabinet he appointed was almost like in our union paean country. You'll have a coalition cabinet right
twelve cabinet was almost like. A coalition cabinet between I'll trump and Mitch Mcconnell. He had to make something can work out in what he has built over his first year, plus being president is a new era in which he has real allies on Capitol Hill that he didn't have at first, and he knows who his Friends are in republican politics and who he just sort of to have a coexistence with wicks television is not somebody who Donald Trump New right, wait solution. Is somebody who trump cap vetoing everyone who the republican establishment wanted him to make Secretary of state then surely, Bob Gates and congolese arise came up with this idea. Right, hey, you might like Rex tellers,
am tromp was successfully sold until arson too. He gave tell us in this job that was acceptable to centre Republicans, but he never really kind of worked out money, Bumpo somebody who trump feels has its back like he likes, but there? He could have made somebody else secretary of state, but he really pick from pale and if pale is firm. That will mean that Trump now has secretary of State who, like is a Trump guy, you know and on Capital Hill. Like we're, gonna see right now, Bob Corker chairs a set of foreign relations committee. He is Chile relationship with Europe, even though they sort of work done on a practical level. But he's gonna be gone. So you know quarters can be gone from the Senate. He will likely be replaced in that seat by Marcia Blackburn, whose much trumpery your figure and as the Foreign Relations Committee, probably by Jim Wish, from Idaho, whose he's nobody, but he is not like spoken up in it in that
way as something that happened last night was Trump very enthusiastically, endorsed the house in elegance committees. Conclusion that not only was there no collusion between the Trump campaign in Russia, but the Russians didn't even try to help from when the election, and that's it that's crazy, embarrassing thing for the house Belgians Committee Republicans to have concluded is at odds with what ever you intelligence Agency has found and would just like common sense. Look looking at what happened there growing report right. That is the kind of thing where, a year ago, we'd be saying look Trump, house Republicans like they are in agreement on tax cuts and Obamacare repeal whatever, but they have these points of friction. But now there, like big elements of the Republican Party, are get real steps to eliminate those points of friction and Trump is gaining the opportunity to elevate the people who have done that in
these kind of new positions. Gary Cohen is sort of similar directs tiller sent in that he's not like us long time, Trump guy he's a guy who trumpery acted him cause he's a business man and Republicans like em cause. You seem competent Larry, blow who's being rumoured to replace M is like a guy who Donald Trump knows it's like we're getting. real Trump team in place for the first time. I think in part we are seeing is an expansion of trumps bait YO there were there. Was this whole rhetoric on the right about how trumps based kind of fighting, congressional Republicans and it's as if their Turning to reach detente in a sense, we are seeing that the house near seeing that little bit not as much in the Senate. but you're saying this kind of like a coming we'd general understanding that what the base they're not gonna get as quickly as they fought, but you, are starting to see some sense of.
Kind of an overall agreement about the general direction of the administration. I think there's something that represented by Adam Schiff, said last night on the Rachel Maddow Show and end shift courses, the ranking Democrat on the House, intelligence Committee and and his relationship with his republican counterpart Devon, Nunez, is not good. I think, would be a reasonable way to put that, but he said I think it goes to what we're talking about here. I think many I could see the Donald Trump- can be a very poor precedent, but we could see as many people would be complicit in that how many people would be, linked to resign their obligations under the constitution. Our system of checks and balances in this, nervous about deeply flawed president are constituted, It is only as good as the people who uphold it and by shutting down this investigation, it shows that people power- things are really not living up to their responsibility, and I do think this speaks to the two to this broader point.
his trump is assembling. More of his team has been very clear. I also so amazing when he talked about how we thought Eric holder. Was it really good attorney general because it President Obama kept breaking the law and Eric Hold are kept. Protecting him now in my view, what happened, but the fact that those trumps view of what happened is just remember. like the job, the attorney general is to act as the press some lawyer. You really do get the sense that is true. could you name, Michael Cohen, to be attorney general. He a hundred percent would, and we think that would make perfect sense, so Trump is getting more. His people into positions of power. This talk about HR, mcmasters, possibly being out soon for John Bolton. He he has a increasingly question Republican House and Senate majority be amount of opposition. Him is going down not up as Jane says, and so people were at work. point words more and more of an untrammelled version of Donald Trump, I mean Matt, you too.
He's today about taken stormy Daniels investigation. If that's what it should become. This point seriously with the idea being that This is really about establishing corrupt ability, and one thing here is that the degree to which trumps cropped billowy is a problem, for him, is about whether or not practically the pond. Besides to make it a problem and you're really seeing a congress that is more and more in his pocket and Mina, and that goes to that. The house intelligence- and I remember when Johnson Sir came out right, as administration began that the first thing he d, where he came out and said biggest inaugural crowds ever and we are like that's the craziest a human being has done on television a long time and there's an interesting piece by the economist how to count at that point. We said this is how return regimes work. They have these loyalty tests and you have to go out and say absurd things that will Deuce your,
ability say in the private market or to other people. But it's too show that your loyal and I think you should look at what the House Intelligence Committee did is more or less the same thing they could have come out. You know us trying to take a middle ground, something that would have been actually better for trial By being more defensible position for Republicans to take, but now they came, with no collusion, no russian help no russian interests in trouble whatsoever. There no evidence for that proposition. Fox news, A hundred per cent back that conclusion, it was all over the fox dot com homepage, Sean Hannity, said on television. You know this just shows what we ve been telling. You free air there taken strongest version of this trump defence. It you possibly can it's a way of signalling there, their loyalty to the president so terms at how checks and balances are working not well in terms of how to Chump Administration is working with all these departures, not well in terms of who will join it and who will be allowed to join it good people
not going to want to come into this chaos and also trumped, does not want good, independent people. He wants lackey in toys and people who are gonna protect him, and this is bad, like I think I think we should be very upset here. I think, though, that something I would slightly push back on is that we have seen on two recent issues that I think part of the reason why Congress has come to kind of bee. largely accepting of Trump is because Trump, essentially in I've, written about this before in his actual administration of his duties as acid office has run as kind of weird Republican. You know That's why you there's been a lot of critique of say, sent Republicans voting with Trump ninety seven percent of the time, economic. Of course they will when he is putting forth is that they have been saying they have wanted since twenty ten, but on both guy and on tariffs, that's when you're, starting to see congressional Republican saying hang on a second. This is what we wanted, even though that no These are things that Trump has either voiced support for
control measures sense like the late nineties, the early nineties. voice support for some sort of tariff system. We are when he was being interviewed by Playboy in the Ladys, and so I think that there is They sensibility that on this issue, I think there is very much of a sense of a on stirred quid pro quo that if they back Trump on all of the rush investigation and are willing to kind of subsume themselves to him. He will them what they want, which is basically hillside whenever they give him, but we just like just put the bill regarding tariffs yesterday you're starting to see Paul Ryan in trying to work back channels on the tariffs issues. Senses all came out, which I don't think is going to work because the one issue Trump feels extremely strongly about, but I think that there is understanding that if you give Trump what he gets congressional Republicans we'll get what they wandered since they came into office. In this kind of in the town. Ten wave. Yes, I agree with that
when we get to our white paper at the end of the episode, shed light on why that dynamic is so potent, Why does actually concern among conventional republicans that they might lose control of the agenda and if we need to cater to tramp between take a break
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out of the news, but Saddam perennially in the news. These data in the tweets is political correctness. On campus, it's a thing I find this term to be a very vague wine and in some ways at a problematic such debate. But what went inspire me to do an article on the subject at long last? Was that last not one, but two different New York Times up and columns, one by David, Brooks and one by Bari Weiss both put in their Lee it. The fact that Christina Half summers was heckled down speaking appearance at Lewis and Clark, college LAW School in Portland Oregon. pushing summers is like a professional anti feminist and have various feelings about her about we is bizarre decision just like lie to the New York Times audience about who she is it, but This sort of the crux of the matter because, like I agree with people who say that
colors veto tactics at speaking events are a bad thing, but I think the real question of like does the fact Christina Hoff. Summers got heckled. At a small private law school, Portland Oregon that I'm gonna be really honest. I didn't know this law school existed and if you do that to me I would have said that Lewis and Clark College was a college that did not have a law school like it's. Like a nothing event, but like now one Two different New York Times, car sled with its weight- and there is an interesting thing about journalism- is like neither of these columns explicitly have a sentence where they're like- and I am mentioning this because it is incredibly important social issue, but the implications if you read this, particularly if like two different conservative calmness, both go with this- is that, like one of the most important things happening in America, is somehow illustrated by this event
the way the move is being done here. is that? The idea that there is a free speech crisis on campus But there is a rising generation of young college educated Americans who they don't believe in freedom each there. I increasingly authoritarian, I think, that's a term brooks used if I'm not miss remembering the column, books, it explicitly that, like he think this goes to show that we have. generation of people who, because of identity, pollen eggs and some failures on the part of governing establishment as well. He concedes trying to be sympathetic. No longer believe in reason like at very good, big bloodstains, like he's not saying like Sir kids in Oregon did something I don't approve of, but that, like this is emblematic of a generation wide wholesome abandonment of the council,
of reason in persuading right, and so we're not talking here about twenty five thousand people descended on this event like this was not that big event there. There were hecklers at it, but there is an effort to pull out of these events. There's you know, some of them have been even more disquieting there. It there was a vote with Charles Murray Middleton, that's become very famous. If it goes, it Middleton got more, physical and Charles Murray's academic escort was injured not terribly, but but nevertheless, like these things, be leasing, certainly are a scare if they get violent. So I've been a couple of these where people who are Sort of controversial conservative speakers practically embrace and gender issues have been going Airbus is beget. Hackle arm or de platforms or whatever, and it gets pulled up? This idea that there is a crisis of some clauses like cultural authoritarianism coming up, I can't as there is no longer believe in speech. There's no one a belief and, like you know, having a debate out
citing things you reason to discussion and that that there's something much deeper going on here, then you know, of some controversial speaker is being met by some controversial tactics that people I think reasonably could dislike on either side yeah. So I took a look at some general such a survey data because they ve had going back to the seventies a battery of questions about free speech. They ask people about so the hypothetical speakers and if they were going to give a speech in your community, what would you want to be bought they asked a homosexual, a communist, a person who wants to ban of religion. A person wants to over so the government in a military coup and are racist, and should you block their speech and did you bought their speech and you know What's interesting is that you look at these and you can see that the trend towards wanting to allow different speakers wispy, is generally upward, sway
in the aggregate, it's up for four out of five and its flat for the racist. and then, if you look at the racist, you will see that in sub groups, moderate liberals have become less willing to let the racist speak while Everyone else, including far left people, have become more willing to let the racist speak, the other four categories. Everybody is more willing to. Let them speak. So that's like one thing right is a general trend towards more free speech. People are now confused. If, if you think that moderate liberals have become more hostile to people who they think are racists, like that's true, but that's a different sort of conclude the other thing that that you see in this data is that call graduates are more friendly to free speech that non graduates, you see that people who
left of centre are more friendly to free speech than people who right of centre and that's important to me, in terms of like characterizing like what is the trend that is actually happening here, because College students are people, and so you can look at something, I'm canvas you be like it. Is these days everybody's eating lunch and like it's True that on college campuses across Amerika, people are eating lunch. But it's not true that eating lunch is an aspect of campus life right This is very little evidence that I can see that college students or recent graduates of colleges or of elite colleges. How we want to cut this are unusually hostile to the idea of listening to opposing viewpoints. I think all in individuals, have ace of hostility to people who disagree with them about things like that. That's why they disagree.
but in general, working class people and conservative people are much more inclined to sort of shut down disagreement and- and I think we are those a pretty good psychological understanding of the underpinnings of that there is a strong correlation between ideological viewpoints and one of the big five if personality attributes called openness to experience and it's a little arbitrary didn't seem political. But people who like to try weird new foods, tend to be more left wing and their political views and also in general, just kind of more open to like zany stuff and like we're new ideas that some people find offensive then. The other thing you see right is that position called the fire, which specifically focuses on campus free speech issues. They report that there are fewer campus speech codes and there were ten years ago. I they report that there are fewer campaigns to get speakers
invited than there were ten years ago, and another thing I saw a new word: yes s question that they ve only started asking posts. Nine eleven is, would you to block an anti american muslim clergyman from speaking. Most people do, that an anti american muslim cleric should be prevented from speaking? That's it only category of speaker that draws majority support the trend line on that is flat, and this is it That is like missing from the free speech Conrad It is understandable. Ride like people have been killed by islamic extremists, and the trend line. It used to be that a lot of people want to stop communist from speaking and then the cold war ends a bill that way more relaxed about communists after nine eleven people really up in arms about anti american muslim creatures. That being so, Far more Americans are killed by white supremacist groups that are anti american muslim
and something that I think a real disconnect between like White Abed columnists and people of color in America is that white up columnists tend to see Racism, as like a total abstraction whatever they would come down on. The muslim preacher understand that, like people are actually afraid of terrorist violence, but like people of color in the United States, not unreasonable for them to be afraid of, like actual violent acts by white supremacist groups and the exact same right polarization recruitment. Whatever thought process that Peat of all races have about. Ghetto is make extremists is like a reason why things have now. I dont think Christina. Half summers is recruiting people into white nationalist militias. That's like I think we should does
this. Is our blurry she's, not a white Superman, yeah right, I don't think she's a good example of this thing you mentioned as a different thing gets absolutely, but just to say that, like it's, it's a word sympathetically engaging with this. If you are a white person that, like there's a concern about system and racists and racist speech and racist violence in the United States. That is at least as well, grounded as the concern about islamic extremist, islamic terrorism and one I do- and I raised this came up kind of during the Bari ways, Brouhaha, which has to be one of those events where I was like off Twitter. Do people know about this end or care about this, but one of the groups that has been blocked from speaking on a lot of a lot of college campuses are members of the boycott divestment in sanctions. Campagna route with regard to Israel and just last week in Arizona University at Arizona State has basically tried to
och, a muslim student group for not allowing it to sponsor a speaker until they signed a pledge that the speaker- or I think members of the group would not a boycott Israel, and I think this is up the outgoing green wrought, has brought it up numerous times of people kind of on the further last or the libertarian left have brought this up. That more talking about campus speech. A lot of it turns into a kind of like people trying to stop Christina, have summers, repent Shapiro from speaking, but the group that gets kind of the show on a lot of college campuses is beady s or groups that are kind of speaking against Israel or israeli policy, and yet you ve, seen in multiple it's. You ve seen state governments trying to pass laws saying that you, you cannot boycott israel- and I think that that something that you, I believe that that's come up again in New York state, not something you get from with both Democrats Andrew look into something that came out of came up at a pack this past week. Its end, sitting which speech we can
to be important to be free and which speech with no, no, you shouldn't say that an ill. I think that special interesting. There was a great piece a couple of weeks ago in the weekly standard, talking about the issue that college republicans are facing has called Republicans, has responded to this kind of debate by basically I think if we invite someone controversial there and we get a lot of attention and then Some near terms are bad person will write about how sad it was that this person that we tried to invite on purpose to get it to make a controversial, got blocked so, for instance, culture of applicants at Berkeley they invited might well be. The Annapolis is my way you and US republican. He is not as the conservative now. Is he like a controversial figure most definitely, and there is great abed from a member of College Republican, saying, like the only reason, we're inviting this guy, is because we're hoping that it will make the left mad and you're, seeing that again and again and again on college campuses in which you can see
It is our they are not actually invitingly. People in the spirit of recent debate there not hosting debate at all there inviting people to say something. Hopefully there, will be controversial or racist or ridiculous or the mere act of inviting them will quote end quote you're the lives, and so I think, yeah there's. There is not a lot of good faith to be had at all in this discussion and know that those definitely not that one of the things that I think is important about this discussion, is trying to think about the machine by which things are elevated and that machine would have meant in areas of american life, so is happening. Now is that there is one attention to this, but to because social media and other things. It's really For something that happened anywhere to become something happened, in real time everywhere, right in
Your time you can watch Christina, half summers being heckled at Lewis and Clark. in real time. You can be turning into these things, and you know the tweets are going viral and this stuff in the paper the next day, which that was harder twenty years ago. There was a lot less of this. Every conflict on campus became a possible national issue. the same moment. It was happening and campuses weird I mean they just happen: variety, Santa Cruz, weird stuff. happened at uses antiquaries all the time I mean, and then you go thirty years for that. You had or forty years before that and you had in the University of California system, which is why I am most familiar with things at Berkeley and others in a very different valence. Like the free speech movement back then you had occupation of of administration buildings- I mean it long been the case that campus activism is intense and can even be extreme, but the
thing where now it happens, no matter where, no matter what its scale, it is possible national thing where it becomes a you know what was a small issue at the Lewis and Clark becomes to New York Times up ad columns and in the way that you know, conservatives our understanding what's going on all campuses that I think is actually bad a different way and is not good, four sort of anybody involve like random. Which kids feeling activism. Oats should not stand in for any kind of broader movement. One college not stand in for it for all colleges, re gonna things about cautious and generals at their place. Where people try on somebody extreme versions of themselves, they try and extreme etiologies it try and extreme behaviors. They try extreme drugs, they try. Extreme firms departing for better worse at is how we construct a college and in this country, and I just think that there is a an effort
weapon eyes. College behaviour that is not going to end a good place for buddy long term, because kids, in college. Eighteen and nineteen year olds, they're not ready for now more exposure like that and saying that in both directions, it should be more responsible, but you know in the universe, Californy system, the college conservatives back, then we're doing kinds of ninety stuff that with just meant to offend and upset people, and it wouldn't it good if all that had become national news either, because just college weird and like they're supposed to be given a little bit of space to just be whether or not is how like life should work. We decided that, like these kids can go to college- and I have this time to figure themselves out and Vienna but the national media not get
who excited about what a teen in nineteen year old you on colleges would just be a good rulings, and I also think it's worth noting which colleges they are like. You mentioned the Charles Murray speaking at Middlebury. Milburgh is one of the most expensive schools in the country, and yet there is a similar incidents at Evergreen State College, which, if you asked me to identify where evergreen state colleges, I could not do it. You, I went to the University of Michigan and we had our whole thing when there is a whole debate about affirmative action that involves lawsuits and you're out Martin came to campus and he got really weird and strange, but it was just like I was a I'm on a college campuses. Of course it's getting weird and strange. We a yearly set Pash bash wishes celebrating marijuana. Of course this is happening. It's Ann Arbor, but the idea of this flat of college life mode, Americans who go to college, go to college, go to state schools or go to community college as they are not going to marry.
Berry or Lewis and Clark LAW School. They are going to schools that are definitely gwig, more recognised to everyday Americans or not going to school at all, and so I think that this idea that every college becomes Middlebury or every college becomes ill Yale with the Halloween Costumes incident of a couple of years ago is really very strange to me, but I want to make us stronger claim than the like anti anti caught him, because I think that a certain number of people who are propounding the like pc freak out take note of that and Zobeide. You guys are just upset that I'm calling attention to theirs by Poland. You say it like, I think, you're like serious wrong claims being advanced in the name of any political correctness, one of them is not taking seriously the privateness of small private colleges weight so like at Wellesley. Men cannot attend
right now that would be a crazy principle to apply writ large to american higher education to say that, like just men, go to college right like that, would be terrible to see that all colleges should be single. Sex would be not quite as terrible as no men can go to college, but also really bad, but to say that a small private liberal arts College in Massachusetts cannot choose to be all women would be off terrible and ill It would be specifically illiberal right, like I went to a private k, eight school right and it was won by the episcopal turn and like you had to go to chapel every Wednesday and all the kids had to appear in a Christmas pageant, unlike obviously, public schools at America cannot operate on that principle, but also obviously private schools care right.
I don't know that it would be a good idea for a college to establish aid. No conservative campus speakers rule, but it certainly acceptable for a college to try that out. Right, like you, would acceptable for the University of Michigan, a public institution with many thousands of students right, but like it's a viable concept that Lewis and Clark, College should have a no conservative campus speakers like that, might be a terrible idea and, like maybe nobody, would learn anything but like these institutions like they can they can what they want to write and they can also say we're gonna- have a super, strict rule, worldview, Haeckel, a speaker. You get expelled right away like that's a reasonable. potential disciplinary concept and like you have to let s and do what they want? Another thing is: I think that there is a real double standard being employed here. not just in a like, truly ha ha, but like the exact same people who I see,
most fired up about. The excesses of canvas political correctness also seem to me to be the ones demanding that Louis Fair can be no platforms. Lately. really sympathise with the view that Louis forget you be no platform, and I kind of sea like well, but you know like right around the edges. Aglow, you saying, would you counter protests inferences heckling, but like it's? It's a tough one. But like to say a certain person is really despicable, and I really don't want him to have access to prominent Paolo platforms that's normal human reaction and that's what's going on here, is that there is a substantive disagreement about some of these figures right that masquerading as like a process. Disagreement about free speech on campus is a substantive disagreement about, is Charles Murray, a valuable public intellectual who agree or disagree. We can all learn a lot from listening to him or is Charles Murray, the latest. In a centuries long
a procession of racism masquerading as science, and it would be we more constructive to like actually talk about that. In which case you know, I think, give a different debate and then last there is enormous amount of fudging between hard core hecklers veto tactics which I think there's like a real problem with institutions that that are public or or that you know onto to have open mindedness and then the word political correctness is used to cover that, but like also to cover people who, want to see more women given jobs as directors and Hollywood right Both of those things are political correctness, disagree conceptual unit scrapping between them, and I think that a real disservice is done by
associating like all anti racism and all feminist advocacy, with particular tactical approach. That is not you to that political view. Let me add one more thing here that I think is one were set this out into what issues it is actually bring up. I think, is important too, which is when you listen to critics. I think critically here some of the critics on the left of this behaviour end when it comes to know plot forming. I would count myself among it. I'm not comfortable the sort of hackers veto stuff, but what they're saying is these important and by the Brok Obama has said this. It is important to learn how to listen to things. You disagree with its important to be able to have these recent debates is important. We will meet speech with more speech. It's important to be able to you know here. The best ideas that are are against IRAN and and know how to respond. Now It's all true, it's all important.
to know how to organise against things in society that are wrong or problematic, and so we are putting to the side for a minute question of whether or not you people made a correct judgment on whether you know a Milo or whoever is problematic in that way? The idea that is nothing to be learned, Encompass activism, the idea that the who thing in life is not conniving against racism and choice to make America less racist country, but is being sit quietly and hear people say things that are racist. I'm actually does not sure that's true. Now I not want to be- and I understand why people going these colleges would not want to be the Person on whom people are practising had organised against racism, and I really understand- and probably in all this more sympathetic to the students who won One of the results of the gorilla point, your work, that is, that the Inn
petitions here, Lewis and Clark or through Lewis and Clark, whoever was doing the inviting made a decision to have these speakers come right. It's not They decided to what one of the weird things about all this. If the institutions are often on the other side of the students, students themselves are divided, but instead the question of like what are we to what children learning some. our children are trying to learn how to be there and have a debate and listen to debate. And here I disagree with and other of our children are trying to learn how to organise to make society. What would be Are you a more just place? I very much understand the defence of being able to to learn. from speakers coming? It's because you disagree with coming, and you know, learning how to meet a week. The argument you dont like with a reasoned argument that that you believe in, but I also think that there is a real diminishment. of the value of activism. In this conversation- and I say that again, I am not comparable to know plot forming stuff, but I also think
Activism has a tendency to make people uncomfortable that it. That is how it goes. I added I did an interview on my podcast with Steven Pinker or a couple weeks ago, and one thing I found troubling in the way he thought about this. Was he just very little role that I could Pelon his understanding of all this for activism, to two tools the social change he had a much more reason Riven idea how social change happens than I do which is that you know a lot of social change comes from activism that makes people uncomfortable is at times unpopular while it is happening, but that's also something people learn on college campuses, and I think it's been something that rollin. American life has been positive, So I do think that within this conversation, there needs to be some at least dealing with the fact that dish and something that that is going on here. Being reason, debate people trying to learn how to organise for a world they prefer and that. also has value. I also
that on the notion, I spend a lot of my time kind of watching the rate and covering the rate and it's interesting. We need to see that like what the right has construed as being politically incorrect and therefore good and like that these ideas that are for one point we incorrect are air go naturally, good ideas that should be shared are basically we're coming to college campuses and arguing we'll black people. Art as good as white people- and that is, one thing that you, the right will defend your right to say that from here, to eternity, and you can get any college speaker you it when you look at the right on college campuses. They are not trying to get people on campus to talk about the need for tax reform there, not bringing people on from my ill will signal our we just don't hear about it. They don't get your exact protein or get they'll get protest. They don't get attention durned, but like they're. Trying to get who are essentially willing to Europe, basically willing to say, like the other turning it Spencer, there
really is a sense that, because people think these opinions are bad, these opinions must therefore be actually good, and I think it's kind of ridiculous that at the same time, you have people who are so concerned about that the voices of say, yeah black lives matter or these certain ideas. Those are actually politically incorrect on the right and therefore they should be limited. That summit arguing like no actually, black people are as good as white people there, seems to be actually controversial within some circles on the right, and yet this kind of the fetish zation of political incorrectness as being Not only is it politically incorrect, but that by itself means its good and worthy, and we should give people book deals and podcast and turn them into leg. Jordan Petersen is really confusing to me that there is just it's not so much that yeah should hear all speech. It's that we should hear put
incorrect speech, because it's good speech but politically correct speech is now bad speech and I think that's great leader in your neck segment. Azure tells us So let me tell us, is a political side disadvantage built university? I think one of the plague sent his doing the most interesting work out there. You ve hurt us discuss on the book he did with Chris Acorns, which is democracy, realists and he just came out with a fascinating draft paper call partisan, in the Trump era and wood, Looking at in this paper is what are the actual divisions within the partisan political landscape he is taking, as is starting point. This idea that people have that either you hear a lot and in the media, particularly that the Republican Party is deeply divided? Probably the democratic parties deeply divided were in a period of party fracture where we might see the parties transform.
In the coming couple of years into wholly different coalitions and actually are, and so he digs pretty deep enough Hu, the public opinion data and fine That it's really not sure an impact what he finds. Is it for all the time? tromp ism being this hostile invasion of the Republican Party republic. Are not particularly divided by cultural conservatism. They're. Just not. If you look at how they feel about the matter flag or the english language or negative feelings for its Muslims and immigrants, and eighty hissing gays and lesbians, like what begins or are on the same page are divided on the size of government. The Republican Party is a lot more internal division. Over whether there should be Medicare and who should get income support than they are over. Whether immigrants are good, comparatively the demo our are not that divided on. Whether government is good they're, not that divided on economic issues there,
toward divided on cultural issues, they are one. Fourth are closer to. The abbey republican position than we are the position of the Democratic Party. I think this paper an interesting. I really relates to two. The conversation were just having, because one reason, this political correctness stuff does so well in the media. Is it a lot of Democrats Out of older whiter democrats, who feel a little like uncomfortable with gender language on campuses and worry that they might be the kind of some folks who say the wrong thing. I protested it. A key to their discomfort to whereas you know that isn't that kind of division inside the two parties on things like economics and ended, speaks in the dynamic between Trump and members of Congress right too, has had faked a number of times in the direction of x. the lighting, the grass roots, republican disagreement about he can I mean it's going to get the terminology clear right, like the reason that people have the impression that
Publicans every United in Economics is it Republican Party elected officials are completely united. right would more tells us showing, as the rank and file Republicans, actually disagree, a fair amount about the world of government, and so there is the cross ability that Donald Trump could exploit something like that that if Donald Trump went road was like here? Let's not cut taxes for which people were does things. He said where exactly that, like he would not lose his base over there, but that actually Large segments of the Republican Party base agree with that kind of thing, and so the Republican Party needs to keep its elites on the same page. age and economics, to like presented consistent, united front that, like, if you want culture warriors for conservatism in government, you have to pick war, There's four small government that that's, like you're, only option out there and Democrats is, I think, an exactly
parallel situation that they were, I fear, member of the ECB, amicably, moderate, culturally progressive people in democratic party politics profession. but would you seeing here is that in the real world thereof, more rank and file. People who are loyal to democratic party economic positions, but are uncomfortable with early some of its cultural politics, and it only makes sense wait if you, if you would like broadly descrie bright like older latino gentle. Then you would say, you know that guy, like he's, probably a democratic problem. really agrees with Democrats and Economic Issues Bobby Goose, junk, at some cultural stuff, like about immigrants, but like does he may not have super progressive views about trends, gender issues like yeah. You know why not right that would not be surprising at all, but Congress. It's like Democrats are fracturing over bank regulation, but by cold
firmly about abortion and another culture. War topics bright, and I think that that something it was interesting. Reading this paper and also engaging in some arguments on the right about what is the role of never trumpeters now, because never trump concept for some people we November November, eight twenty sixteen, but for some people it's no. No. We have to continue standing against this administration even though, policy, the straighten has, as I said, largely done kind of what a year. If you could build the ideal Republican from the never trump perspective. he's kind of done. What you would want, if YO, if Trump didn't, have a twitter account and so its interest to see that kind of unified a voice and unified policy when there spend your others talk about. Oh republicans are divided and like. I think that this paper brings up the important point that, on a lot of issues, they're not really isn't as much even try
conflict, as we might think that we're seeing based on the conversations you're having between commentary and the american conservative, or something like that and another thing about never trumpets envisages turns out, there is very little of it, so things it that cartels does look at is whether not there's been change in partisanship between twenty fifteen when Trump was coming up as a national figure, but but still seem very very unlikely as republican Army and late twenties teen so well into his presidency and e finds it there very, very few Democrats who became Republicans during this period and in the few there were seem to have liked Trump and Similarly, there is very very little in the way for publicans who left the Republican Party in this period and the few did appear to have liked Hillary Clinton. They were older women who had very favourable views towards Clinton, but overall
as a normal parson stability, there is not a Donald Trump we making the Republican Party in his images. There is not a ramp up, never Trumpery, leaving their just like the parties. the same. If you looked at all this data and just like extra all the names you couldn't tell anything happening. You would, in effect, and eating weird happened in american politics during this period at all, right, which I think really goes to show its stability. Yeah, I think that that is interesting, because you see so many people having the conversation about like. When is the time for the libertarian moment when the time for just kind of this break out, and I think what we say this paper is like they're. There isn't one- and I think, never trappers got a lot of attention because it was interesting to see people like George will base saying like I'm out. This is ridiculous. It is interesting to see people how people respond to such
existential threat to what they conceived of as the Republican Party, but at the same time it wasn't actually important- is allowed of kind of a lot of courage, sound and fury. I think that's why, other thing I was thinking about is that it really goes to you. There's been a lot of discussion about. Is the Democratic Party move further left, and I think that that something that I think this but look sat in a really interesting way by talking about the kind of introduction on cultural issues were a kind of people have talked before about the death of the blue? democrat, but at this in time. I think that there is a sense that there is the Democratic Party in Congress and then there's the Democratic Party if you're too seven, twenty eight and then there is the Democratic Party, if you're an older member of union and under this, these different innovations on one party and really gets to just how challenging democratic party politics really are the only thing that has on here that I think this is really interesting. Is that this
their confirmation and hear that, moderate voters are sort of a myth. even though voters were torn between the political parties are not that there's a this chart. Sort of showing where people line up on cultural versus economic type stuff in and there are a lot of people who are cross pressure on the chart. But they tend not to be like toward the center of the access, is usually that they're off in one corner of the other, typically the day art some conservative and cultural issues, but somewhat the bureau on economic issues and they feel tore right, Oh, you would appeal to a voter like that, presumably either breaking sharply. If your party, unlike one or two, the topics that people pale, attention to and that you know
make a lot of sense or by raising the salience of kind of one issue that that you have I was in an interesting sure, a case study in their see he's kind of abandoned, but it used to be that Bernie Sanders was very left wing. Everything except guns, and he and just like moderate I'm guns, but was actually quite far right wasn't that left wing on immigration, either a blood the party dynamic, was sort of different. Yes, I mean what he was he had like a signature break with the left issue and like it was, It was a clear signal to people who might agree with him about some things, but disagree with him about other things that, like I'm with you man, I s. Why and you can imagine that work. You can imagine there being some people who voting Republican but actually have some disquiet with republican economic positions, but love,
republican stance, I'm gardens, and then a Democrat comes along and its at last I'll try for this guy now you know how many people is guns exactly the right issue. Ball abides, it's all very complicated, but put that to the sort of more conventional idea of just like stepping who inches away from the base, but like I'm all topics across the board. and they re little evidence. I think that that would actually get anybody anything that their voters, who don't like the parties and options they. but they're, not necessarily in the middle, but one that things are, This is interesting about when you think about it in terms of Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump produce. Any presidential candidate at all is standing that presidential car its are walking this somewhat weird line between party based is, that are split in one way and party elite structures and donor structures split in another way. So the democratic
the base is more split on cultural issues. There the basis not nearly as Monolithic Lee Pro Life pro immigration one of the the to beatitude spots base of as a thirty seven point difference between begins and Democrats on the idea that Crimination against white is a bigger problem than discrimination against blacks. That is, you know, a difference, but through The point is not a hundred since it's not it's not huge. Democrats are doomed It is often more culturally conservative among the least among donors. It is often more economically conservative and then Republicans have sort of exact opposite they're doing with an elite class, it's extremely unified around economic conservatism, and a base? it is a lot less unified or economic conservatism, and so You know. Sometimes you see players get through that on their own for personal cognisance right there so much route
within the party or their able to inspire the party, so much table quiet. Some of these disagreements. Sometimes players run through this by just over, overwhelming one side or the other. Oddly enough, Donald Trump should have done He overwhelmed. The doubts about him during the campaign and then like oh evolve as economic, heterodox he's, with the exception of trade tariffs once he got into office, but it is interesting that the elite casas dont mirror the Base Casas really at all I mean, if you were just looking at it from the press, of what goes on in Washington. You would think that damage, our were more divided on economics and Republicans on culture and its was literally the opposite often consider myself server sceptic of like money in politics, type, stuff and
a lot of the specific claims that are made along those lines like representative, so itself voted this way and he also got three thousand dollars from Ino Company dont, really hot water. But when you look at the macro picture, it is very hard to avoid the conclusion that, like Lee, basis of official politics is being structured by donors, idiosyncratic views. Much more than by mass opinion. What and the other piece of that. I agree with that, and I would just add to it that I think one thing the donors can kind of stand in, for it is the pinions of kind of high, the educated, often high income elites generally, and I think that one one way that money in politics operates is also just by structuring the classes of people that politicians hang out with then and what their social universes or like, where the
yell bad. If they you know ways who they talk to on a weekend and I think that's part of it here too. I'd be very curious to see division, of this kind? Broken out by education and income levels- and my God is would mirror the divisions were talking about, and I think that's part of the two, politicians are to some degree who they pay what do they spend time with part of that is money right. They go these fundraiser than they have dinner, with people, the fund, races and so on, but also partially just they are leads they hang out with other elites. Are they friends you know in the in the circle say Travelin and they don't want to do things that link early. They don't want to do things right. They they believe in the things that their social worlds believe in, and so I think that's a piece of it too. I think that its money, but it so just what become could have done
culture among american elites, which is somewhat more economically moderate, but a lot more culturally liberal, and I think that that even goes back to our discussion about political correctness, I'm campuses is that this is an issue for elites, because these are the circles in which elites live. You know very well, does that Colombia, you have but who are you like? I went to year I went to Harvard I went to my Middlebury. Of course this is an incredibly important issue for me now this is I might send my children. This is something that these The conversations I'm having on weekends you this, why you're able to get you Wisconsin state government to try and cracking down literally on your on hecklers, by saying that you know risk being expelled if you are showing too I've done this week Wisconsin content as much less willing to act on the issues facing eel blue collar, those who could not dream of being able to send their kids to like University, Wisconsin, white water but say? And so I think that that goes. To these conversations. You there's,
reason why these conversations are being head and it's worth considering that these conversations are being head, because these conversations are taking place among these people among these elites and know if you're David books, I think that you are actually not the voice of the masses of the democratic Party. You are the voice of a select sliver of the Democratic Party, the happens to get a lot of attention in these certain circles and You yourself listening at home, want to be a member of the opinion elite. Are you should really be listening not just to the weeds all many box by gas, including especially today, planed coming to you everyday, explaining things helping you, what's going on. You could also isn't as Rochelle, if you, if you like that, you got and get gas. I do. Actually, I think we'd listened as well. It will like this week I don Jennifer Carlson who's, a sociologist who focuses on the identities,
done carrying creates a practically among men. She's dunce, really fastening worker in Michigan. Looking at folks who do open and concealed, carry and how to changes our experience of the world, their idea of America of what is good citizenship, I think think about the gun issue in America. As an issue of identity, identity. Politics helps clarify it. Quite a bet you're interested in debate, and I think right now. A lot of us are you like that: that's user, poncho, the sweet and gentle Karlsson High, and with that of the me thank our engineer, Griffin Tanner Producer Bridge Armstrong. Thank you Jane for filling in today. Thanks everyone, the weeds will be back on track.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.