Jane Coaston joins Matt and Dara to talk about exploding housing costs in America’s coastal cities and what we can do about them. References and further reading: Jeff Stein's piece on rent and housing
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I was a snitch man alone, welcomed another episode of the weeds and the box media access network and Matthew Glaziers it with their land, Jane Coastline and
we are going to talk about how and where people live. I tweet about the solid time. Matt
often gets into conversations about housing, is there enough of it? Is there to
How do we make there be more of it. So I, as someone who
is moderately interested in this, but does not pretty.
you really understand. The nuances of this is an actual policy debate beyond the street level
Any change to a neighbour is gonna price people out verse is it's very important that we
are there to be more developments and where people can have houses thing. There are actual policy questions here that are entered.
Not gonna get to those two? I think it's helpful because alone people engage with national politics in a.
Politics, where I ran and engage with community staff in a community type way right, and we think of those being
two separate thing right here. I was saying yesterday that it's interesting that, like the term, affordable housing is one of the things on a national level. People like yes, that sounds great, and then you know if you go to make a decent city council meeting or you get too like the neighbourhood meetings, or something like that.
there, you talk about affordable housing. People are way more like no well soon, as they are lake. There's apple,
critical issue here, which is that DC, which is where all of us live and
Oh, no, not the international office, no for local people is
like most major cities, a democratic unit parties right, which means that political cleavage are like not partisan ones and also at policy level, with the exception of some of the stuff that banks
he's doing over. At eight, you d, like the things that the federal government can do.
are really not the things that are going to
do the most translated reservation. I want to say is back so good just to say that, like the issue is that house
really is local and an immense at its very local image, which is, I was a part of the problem, but bit its inherently local, because the houses in particular
swayed, but their national economic trends weight and they come up from the agglomeration of local decisions weight. So things will happen all the time like a Ermengarde Super Micro, but like there is a non profit in Adams, Morgan and they own a building and the building that they have is under built relative. To
existing local sound, like literally it's not as bigger that could be ready exactly so so you are allowed to build a much larger building there than currently exists. So what they have done is they reached a deal with property developer to knock down their structure, replace it with a much bigger one, have most of the bigger structure, be apartments and use the money that they can get from this to build themselves, a bigger office at night
conference centre and the neighbourhood community is now pushing to get the zoning changed. They won't be allowed to build such a big building and, on the micro level, the dialogue about
as is you know if the building was a little bit smaller, that would preserve a little bit more open. Space of you would be a little bit nicer, Unum things that people want there and then not saying in their defence than not saying you can build any new apartments here. You can't do anything. They just want fewer than one hundred and ten right. So me,
be the outcome of this will be eighty five apartments or ninety write anything like, but what's the difference between a hundred ten or ninety right? And it's not that big a deal. But if every project in every town, in every metro area, all across Amerika ends up being ten percent fewer units, then the market would demand you actually Grady.
huge national shortfall of housing ripe and then it seems to me is like. But we have that if you look it sort of big macro trans over the past,
Here two years unemployment has stopped being dislike. National economic obsession, raids, its fall into it to a reasonably low level at weren't, a healthier place. But if you look at it, we'll wages have fallen over the past year and the reason that they fall and is that wages have gone up. A little bed now lie, but you know more than zero, but prices have risen faster than that and the price that has risen alive,
has been rent and now for a lot of people, I'm a home honour that sixty percent of Americans are homeowners. So we don't actually see this price increase its like a statistical artifact that their fear of labour suggest success for us. But this is a real problem for people who went it's a problem for low income, people who ran and it's a problem for younger people who are renting now, but maybe
operational II would be homeowners in the future. At as someone who rents, I can tell you, it is not merely a statistic: it is our
the thing that is really happening and is astounding to enter, and so this is a
fairly general, serious national problem and you'd starting to see politicians want to address it, and so calmly. Harris has legislation that, in a very short of typical liberal democratic way, is like a ha people having a lot of problems affording housing. We should create a slight
scale, subsidy programme, where, based on your income and based on the cost of housing in your area, we're gonna give you some extra money for it right and it's
like a terrible idea. But it does speak to the question of. Why is it that housing is so unaffordable right? Now you go to some places right if you go to Cleveland Alot of people who live in Cleveland struggle to afford housing and the reason that they are
struggling to afford housing is that they are poor right if you are a middle class person living in coastal city and you look at the price of houses in Cleveland you're, like a man,
You got a lotta how's eight hours assume that Jane and I have both had the experience as mid westerners of looking at what we could afford if we moved back to our own town. Yet if he evaded personality for the record is like gentrifying fairly quickly in a really interesting way, but even then man, I have also looked, I used to live in Saint Louis. I remember looking up apartments and Saint Louis that were described as basically like the TAJ, Mahal
and they like you, could have the TAJ Mahal of apartments. Four five hundred dollars a month spread silver,
something groups or sometimes do is produced these maps and obey like well how many p
or rent burden tear. You know our are struggling with credibility and I think that's actually kind of misleading because it lumps together two different issues, which is that, like some cities have a large number of poor people and right
So it's like you struggle to afford housing, but you also might struggle to afford breakfast right
and that's a real problem, the eyes and like, but then there's a housing, affordability, probable, right lots of people who live in Washington DC and have no problem getting their twelve eggs or whatever it is Jane was telling us.
Your breakfast tray for a dozen eggs. Like I don t exactly know, few people who are not always the only ones to have more money right but like there are people who are well above the poverty line in coastal city, is retinue good, really struggle to get like to buy a house with some spare bedroom where they could raise some children rainbow. But then I think there is also the kind of overlap of those two Van Diagram groups, which is often well
talking about when we talk about in objectification, is that a generation or two ago when living in the urban core of a city was not the place where, like upwardly mobile people, would never
early choose to live. First, a lot of the people who occupied that housing stock were people who
no were relatively low income, and now they are, you know for the. Lastly, several decades they ve been for
to choose between staying where they are in
environment. Where now a lot of people want to live there and you know losing the place where they, even though they may be renting, may put
roots that they may identify as their neighbourly. This is where it gets really really tricky to talk about. You know the relationship between housing, affordability and engender vacation because
is when you are dealing with people who either our
owners, but are struggling to
what everything else and re best thing they can do for their economic situation is to sell their home or who
renters, but our law
term renters and who are now. You know,
able to stay in the same place. Why
struggling to afford everything else like there's a really acute problem here that gets to the heart of the question of is the character of America's cities chain.
right I mean- and this is an issue this become very prominent online-
right level were extremely online
tend to live in Brooklyn or Washington DC. They tend to be the younger side
and Inverness. Many of them live, but also in San Francisco. Yet yes, some weeks ago, formulate Berkeley at Opel in and you get into a very
tense debate between a group of people who I am often associated with, but actually want to dissociate myself from a yes in my back yard, like pro housing grave, you point and a left anti d
and critique, and these have become very prominent in the media, because the media has a lot of twenty and thirty something's who live in these central cities of the most expensive metro areas
and I think it would be easy reading the coverage to come to the conclusion
that the primary housing supply debate in America is between people like me, who think we should build more houses and people like the EAST Bay democratically,
It was a miracle who say that no, what we need to do is deacon, modify the housing supply and ensure the stability of communities to a government take over of everything in the
universe. But I am sure that this kind of an illusion did something that happens because in America we do not build enough houses like in all of the places that are expensive, and because of that, you see the development that does have happens in this kind of narrow, gentrification frontier,
when I spoke to do you live like at around each tree. I live at the fractal edge of the gentrification frontiers
ITALY fastened wagon, and I live you street, which was like was the old gentrification Frontier and in Washington Riots,
and this happens in other cities. You have a place that is poor, but is adjacent to a neighborhood. That is not poor right.
For You Street Logan Circle. It was Dupine Circle for AID Street in India see it was captain.
I don't remember the names, a different neighborhoods in Brooklyn, but it's like the gentrification
frontier spills out rang from Prospect Park, basically in indifferent direct clubs wreck.
Do you know? In my day I grew up in New York right. Any was like the West Village was nice in the justification, frontier pushed east into into these villages and the lorry side, and that's what rent is about and that the musical
I am entirely here of returning this into a Benny was rain. Yes, I mean the entire argument behind musical rent is that they don't want to pay rent, but they should
rent and I'm like this, could be the fastest musical ever and which reads like do you want to pay
rent in there like no there's like alright, you got to go. We. We should also point out that the evil developer in rent is literally proposing a mixed use facility with affordable housing units for his friends.
What's up my kind now riled a variety of measures, it never gets argument. Views will be less. How is it that I think, is that what you think is rent is another easy. A early nineties example ranks Axiom phenomenon right, which is that, like the kind of people who would write musicals where they inhabit the gentrification frontier, just like the kind of people who do internet takes do now, yes, and so on, the frontier you have this kind of mine bending.
question where it's like, maybe more supply, will increase capacity and improve affordability
maybe the new supply brings than amenities brings in more fancy. Why people and push people out- and I think that's an interesting debate but, like the bigger question, is what's happening everywhere-
else? Bring right so like in Washington DC new
New housing is Bell West of Rock Creek Park right in a western work. We park is less dense, then the gentrification frontier areas- and it is more expensive right, like in market terms like that's where.
there's a ton of unmet demand for housing. But it's like so out of consideration that we would build in the most expensive places, say nothing of the suburbs right like Central Arlington words, all single family homes, and they all costs. Two million dollars like you could replace those with low has things like that and that word unlocked.
vast amounts of housing supply like look beyond the wildest dreams of any body? Looking at like some new condo building someplace and would really sort of change the game, but people are very hung up on the sort of marginal changes on the frontier. It seems to me. I think that either
Separate debates thing you think I mean in so far as there is a baseline
bloom of local governments.
not doing anything
then, yes, through the perfect, be the enemy of the good is like that might be an academic debate and, to a certain extent,
You know the real question is: should it just be,
building more should be building more and also other things like subsidies like mortal, has met its bite. There is,
a little more dispute near the base.
on question of is driven by a marriages and gender
commissioner, is driven by a just like iron laws of some
and demand, with the demand. Being constant. Does me
possible world where, if the solution is building things with out other things, that will actually make the problem worse? It won't just not sir
of it, but it will exacerbate it and that's kind of where we get into a peace that was written earlier this week by our former colleague Jeff's dying in the Washington Post, which use data from v
real estate and real estate, analytic site Zilla. To argue that in a lot,
cities most notably Portland vit. The addition of housing stock had resulted in lower rents for the top third
of homes but rising rents for the bottom there and leg, there is
methodological debate about how he got to that conclusion. But if that
It is true that means that it is actually better to have the status quo. Then it would be too just do housing without anything requests, so
let's take a bag, and then that I want to talk a little bit about this piece. It feels like
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So one important area like data quibble about just I speak said it is a problem with the peace, but is something that you can go missed in Sweden, which is that renters are systematically lower income. That homeowner said the United States, so the top third of the rental market is not actually target.
like the top third of the income distribution, and so when you have done that shows ok prices in the top third, the rental market have gone down. Prices in the middle third have stayed flat and prices in the bottom. Third. I've got up. There really is like bad news for like the truly disadvantaged, but the
but people who are enjoying like flat or falling rents, is like up solidly middle class group not like that super affluent grew braided. It top codes at fifty thousand dollars a year income
The that wasn't necessarily like my understanding from the kind of methodological critiques that have been made of just peace was that he wasn't actually using active rental data was
in this hypothetical lake, if your homework rented here's how it would go, which actually seems to have the opposite problem, not reflected the composition that there and I think the computer brands is ok. I just I just I want to be clear about what it is that we are fair and talking about here specifically, but I mean I do think it is an interesting question, but I think that link the deeper question that gets sort of weaved away in some of these discussions is like should city is be well
meaning to newcomers right leg, lyrism, I'm running joke in my twitter circle, where you try to find liberal people who have both the everyone is welcome here
a sort of work, hashtag resistant sign in the yard, but also some anti development sign great weight? And- and I think that there is something to the point that, like for a lot of people on the loved a like anti development ideology, play some of the role of an anti immigration.
Eddie Ology for some people, the right timbered Cisco, which combines like housing, affordability, very serious problems, a lot of identification and, unlike an east coast cities, a strong tradition of
went control, lies there, would alot of renters and advocates for long on people and San Francisco want is like having
new construction and then have very strict when control laws and like the classic, you know sort of right wing critique of rank controllers his well. They create no incentive for new housing supply.
but didn't care about new housing supply they would they care about literally, is the well being of the low income. People who live in San Francisco right Now- and I think that it is true
Yes, I mean you can quibble around the margins that like, if you dont care at all, about potential newcomers to your city, that the appropriate policy is just a pure sort of regulatory crackdown on landlords right and then of larger cars
in his like. Is that fair? Is it good for a city right, like it's very contrary to the actual spirit of most of the his coastal cities, to say
the way they should operate is as like, a gated community that allows for no entry from people either from abroad or from elsewhere in the country, like the whole tradition of thought, San Francisco New York, every other like pigs,
that again hold your breath? Isn't like people go there? You know if I can make it here, I can make it anywhere not like if I can get on at sixty year, waiting list for US subsidized department. I granted here it's agnostic, question
we're gonna resolve by like quibbling about truly a data or even like how supine demand curves intersect like it's an actual,
values, question one and then there's the I mean even the question that you posters is pretty much it's a utilitarian question. It's just a question of whose utility are counting right,
There's the even trickier non you
Military in question of, like is the city constituted of the people who are currently there. Is there
an ineffable sense of place that would be disrupted if current residents are forced to disperse easy,
ever legitimate to think about things like preserving neighbourhood character, fresh might seem on the face like super aesthetic.
like we don't want. You pain in your house, throng color, but also encompass things like well. If there
reason that young white people want to me
to a city is because
that has been produced by the rubbing elbows of african
communities, immigrant communities and Lake Gay, how
All in all other cases is preserved,
in that a worthwhile good, if so ray- and you also start getting into of the live ability. Question that you and I both live within literal walking distance of our office, and that is something that too many people. That is something that matters, but to what extent is that of importance to a government?
entity tat should then be something that you are like. We want to put forward policy that would say, like sidewalks, are important or bike lanes. The bike Leonardo
is one that can people extremely riled up in local. It's it's so funny, because I think that there really is a difference between, as I mentioned before, there is like the national considerations. When we talk about affordable housing, then there's the brass tacks you get down to when it's like. Ok,
we're gonna put in sidewalks or a bike lane, or something about or we're going to designate this particular area historic district, which means that in order to do absent,
anything. You need to leg, put up a bunch of science.
you're going to do a thing. Then they can have a meeting to tell you know you cannot do the thing. What worries us it? Yes, I can Evelyn
That is not what I want to talk about. The community character. Think is there anyway. I do think this is telling and that people should interrogated a little bit more.
joke all the time that I give Jeff sessions where too, like stop talking like Jeff sessions, does as a he's trying to preserve neighbourhood character and like that's, why we need to deport everybody that we now maybe liberals would like more, but I think it's difficult to think through how it is actually supposed to work right, because neighborhoods are composed of human beings rate, and here
Beings go through like lifecycle, type events right, they have children and in a sense right. If you have like a Chinatown someplace here, and you want that Chinatown to endure, then you
need it to be. The case that the chinese american children of the chinese people who grew up there can come to have palaces of their own right
So there does have to be some new housing supply if only for the community's own children and have a place to live, but at the same time, for I think good reasons, we would not allow you to build a new development in Chinatown and say it is a chinese only parchment
right for community character. Considerations. Ride, like even Jeff sessions, would not go so far as to say that people should be able to preserve neighbourhood character with that kind of like racially discriminatory re housing.
He also also you can't stop
The third generation Chinese Americans from being less wedded to living in the Chinatown than their parents are grandparents might have been right, like if people want to disperse elsewhere, but then other people have different reasons for thinking that that is a good neighbourhood like you're, going to get a flux right, and I can't think of any place in America, which has maintained its existence as an ethnic cluster neighbourhood indefinitely, and look what would it have taken? Two key
the lower side where my great grandparents lived as like it, we're jewish insular neighbourhood by right and to think of like stopping new housing development, as some have producing that outcome.
Seems a little, I guess I'll just say, unrealistic, right, Billig this, how human society works
and it sometimes feels like what it would be good to sort of preserve these neighborhoods as museums for people to visit or, if you can think of yourself, is doing it on behalf of the people who live there, but then, on the other hand,
it's like well, ok, see you haven't neighbourhood and it's like it's like a cool, it's a greedy urban neighbourhoods
and then someone's like well, maybe we should make the park in this neighborhood nicer and then you sometimes
The concern now under like conditions of constraint that, like no like, if we make the park nicer, that's going to lead to more gentrification like people Gondwana
live here and there's something really there's something really perverse.
Look. I have an article about people
near the attic, Hosty historic district, complaining
about a new initiative to plant trees in the neighborhood and he'd like it sounds crazy, but it's like sort of not crazy that they see this idea of like making the streets nicer
as the leading edge and ran to push them out right. I mean this clearly gets into much bigger problems with urban governance that lake, if you have destroyed community trust,
point where it pretty in our low
although anodyne, a
occasion. Project is seen as a signal that the government developers are gonna work hand in hand to push you out the right that indicates that you ve already created the perception. That
the government of DC is trying to serve only some of its constituent
and that the trees are not for the people living there. The trees are for the people who will be living there and those people are not you right and that this does get into like. I think that its fair, that implies
act as if not on the internet, then, as a matter of city politics. The options
to be not nimby, verses
can be, but no
be verses. Ye and B plus
a lot of concessions to developers right leg in practice, the to kind of go together,
the politicians in DC, who are supportive of greater development,
also tend to be the ones you want Amazon to come to the district and like are willing to offer incentives. For that, like, there is obviously a much
larger potential political space, but in practice it's not
in seem to think that your options are between this, like governance, sort of private interests and do
thing keep everybody as they are exactly. I dont know how, in the middle that middle ground of lake, there is something to be done, but that something to be done does not necessarily involve Amazon or support
in the building of condos with elevators that go between the living room in the kitchen of which there are multiple near H street. For reasons I have no expert.
what kind of where late? But this is where I you when you say that, like what we are excluding, I mean- and I agree- is absent from the political spectrum, but is a
There is no like active politician in any big coastal city who I am aware of, except for Scott Wiener in San Francisco, who is actually advocating for allowing more development in the
fluid neighbour yes, but right yeah but like that is the issue. And it's like I'm trying to say about the trees. Fundamentally is like it's not just a community trust issue because its accurate that, under the currently prevailing conditions in Washington DC and many other cities, that, if you make a low income neighbourhood nicer, that is going to lead to men,
If its residents to getting pushed out and like the Gaza tragedy, Enimie like this again really fucked up but like true aspect of the way, the urban economy works,
unlike the only way out of the binding, is to unlock the other neighbourhood threat for development?
because, if you're saying all the development has to go into the poor neighbourhoods and then they need to fight about. You know how,
much development. Is the right amount. There is no right him, like no development is going to lead to people getting pushed out a moderate amount or development is going to lead to
in some ways the slower pushing out in other ways like an amenities accelerator.
Trying to do community benefits so that, like
Everybody wins actually only accelerates the pushing out these like there's no fix right whereas like if you build buildings in the rich area. If we were talking about development like George Town or a cathedral, high
six hour, can't or something like that, regional and then it generates a bonanza of property tax revenue. And then you can plant trees like everywhere. Here I don't care for trees personally, but that, like this
does bring us back a little bit, and I understand that it's not a perfect apples to oranges, but I do think that we kind of you know
away from the the Jeff Stein hypothesis, that lake at the city level you're going to see a radical decrease in rent for the rich and the moderate increase in rent for the poor and like.
If that's true at the city level, there is reason to suspect that even just adding housing units in affluent parts of town is going to result in an increase demand that is going to in practice pressure.
Port like there's a feasible world in which, if the Jeff Diabetes is true, even
what you are proposing is a solution which means its
To figure out whether that these is true like the problem appears
there. A comparison in Jeff's piece of
ongoing trend since, like twenty eleven of rising rents in Say, Portland for the lower third, coupled with a plastic falling trend since last summer,
for the rich, unlike those two are kind of not the same thing, and one of the methodological critiques which will put in the show notes kind of breaks down more and makes it clear that was really happening. Is
rents, are more volatile for the upper third period when
we're going up. Rents are going up super lot for the rich when rights are going down, ones are going down super left for the rich, so it is fair to say that over the last year, in Portland, for example, rents have decreased a lot for the rich and, like kind stayed flat for the port, they d
he's a lot less for the poor than they did for the richer for people in the middle, like that
so does not make it seem like adding more housing units ipso facto, though maybe it would be different if the thousand that's being added,
only in the affluent part of town like it does seem like it is insufficient, but it does appear to kind of get rid of the
do that adding housing units is going to
always put more pressure on the upward edge of things that playful keep getting harder for the poor.
A list of whether more housing, an extra effort or not so late. That kind of raises the question of what is the both end:
see that isn't going to stop adding more housing in it, but that is going to also assist the people who are least likely to be helped by falling rents, sing another break protectorate service. Yes, this episode is brought to you by fan. Do football is back in the
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Winning it, I would say, no response it. The scandalous hold dialogue is it it is instructive to look so you guys are both in the MID West right. Yes, we're. Both friends is not as it happens, they got Cincinnati and so I'm from your living DC and so those who like to of the main kinds or american citys. Where does that high cost coastal cities and there's the low demand midwestern cities, but then there's the third group of cities right, which is the fast growing
sunbelt cities, the Dallas area, Phoenix area and land
Charlotte, and I do think if you look at those places right there downsides to that kind of urban form. Breaking is unquestionable that, like in very unconstrained sprawl development, you create systematically cheaper housing for
everybody who is kind of around right- and you know it is always worth looking at when your tongue, where these crises- like what margin we really operating rights,
winning the habit in that in the eightys? Was the Reagan administration put quotas on how many cars could be imported from Japan and the United States, and what Toyota did in response to that was they launched
Lexus Sub brand drain, because if you were only can be allowed to sell so many cars, it was important that you make them expensive cars right,
and when those quotas went away, I mean didn't, stop making excesses, but like they sell a lot more cameras right
because when you can sell to everybody, you try to serve the entire market. But when you
only allowed to build ten thousand cars. You try to build cars for rich people because they have a lot of money. So
similar thing and we also know what is a hundred percent. True. Is that now,
body is going to no commercial developer, no matter what you do is on their own. Gonna go make housing that is targeting truly low income. Families
but middle class Americans, the kind of people who Toyota or like get tyres great example,
who they are trying to sell cameras to like developers will sell,
people houses also, but you have to let them make enough palaces,
If you tell them, they can only make a few houses than their only gonna make. Lexus is right, but
One question is like how like, actually what could you do in coastal areas that would GINO?
that outcome, because the way sunbelt cities have adequate housing supply, is they just go further re they just sprawled further and further and further and coastal cities are not like that, because we have oceans, oftentimes rivers in California, theirs
mountains near some of the cities? There are also a concerns about you know of was making your city desirable is in large part having a an adequate public transit system. Then I love harder and for all right in the end, there's traffic waiting mean so like greater New York is a billion times larger than even greater Houston, and you know
it's at a point where to sprawl in New York, further west into Pennsylvania. You know you're talking about to our commute
right, so it doesn't work weight. So what could you do that would change the incentives
the many jurisdictions, because no one place right. It's not like one random town in suburban New Jersey is gonna, be like we are going to take it upon ourselves to generate, like all of the housing stock, that this area it needs rights. It would like how could you get it going like a cross
double places. I mean I tell you that I have a question. I told you think that there is a lake. Ok have
acknowledged that no developers going to build housing for thee? You know what you might call the truly disadvantaged ray.
what is the complimentary solution that makes sure that those people are also addressed Ray
but I think if you had it read so if you, if you could waving, want ray and say, ok,
California is now going to generate infinite quantities of market rate middle Class house weight.
Then a natural question be alive. But what about the poor and natural solution would be? Ok, we're gonna, have a modest tax on this new housing development and then we're gonna, use it to just build more houses and give them to poor people read or just give more money to poor people
Then they can went to houses like its is in some ways like not that hard of a problem. If you have the huge sort of
plus going, and if that's genuinely what people want. I mean I
think that that's a big question right, like oftentimes
the stated reason for opposition to some new thing will be. Oh, this doesn't do anything and affordability, Bob Obama, above a bye.
but when it comes to time to like create the new homeless shelters
the same people rang are often not as eager as they really were
in a way nor by it. I think that it's like, if genuinely you're, only qualm about housing development was that you want to make sure there was more for debility for people to really low end. I think you could she,
that pretty easily right. But I think the concern about community character. Why find it misguided in some?
Is this not inauthentic right like
I am proposing
tons and tons of Marguerite Housing and tax it and angry tons and tons of new public housing like I think that would work fine, but like places, would look really different. Yet- and I think it gets into, there is an interesting cross over between this issue and the issue of schools and school desegregation. Anne Van yeah
and I think your terms has done some really terrific reporting on this and that a lot of the same people who are like yes, let's encourage school desegregation, however, preferably
not at the school where my kids go. I think I d are growing up Cincinnati. There is a whole issue in a neighborhood can over the Rhine, which has been rapidly gentrifying over the last,
ten years ago when we were growing up, if you told your friends, you'd gone downtown for anything, was like TAT, which the said a lot
a different way, and there is a whole issue because there is, I believe there still is. There is a large homeless shelter. That's a lot of great work in that area, and there is also a whole conflict about putting the mean arts and dance and music high school.
They campus were near it and no debate Roy
My household in two thousand for a little bit later, then that one did because I think that it is one of those issues again you'll. When we talk about the real getting down to brass tacks, of building more public housing or building housing, that's accessible to lower
income. Folks, there is a big difference between how people think about it on a national level and how people think about it when it's taking place where their kids go to school or in their neighborhoods or next to their. I dont know jumper juice re, unlike its worth, noting that de facto segregation. When
comes like school desegregation. You know we have established policy solutions like we have bussing policies like there are ways you can get around it when it comes to just dealing with the fact that
lot of people who are engaged in de facto segregation dont. What
segregation, that's why they're de facto segregating in the first place exactly like that's a lot harder
Deal with an that's, why I mean the solution,
Talking about Matt the kind of tax and subsidize could theoretically perpetuate de facto segregation if the the apartments that are available are very far from the apartments that are now being tat
but there's a kind of the alternative. Where late you required
helpers to have x, number of affordable unity like shift that burden onto the private
developers rather well. In theory, you shifted directly in the private developers rather than onto the people who are running the apartments, but
you know in practice is going to result in difference of prices of apartments anyway, but that's where you can
here the horror stories out of mixed income developments,
work were like one.
Developer was having a separate entrance for the affordable units they had to enter through the back of the building. Instead of the front of the building like that sound
terrible and like be developers engaging in segregation, black and white that reflects is the developer
Presumably, after having looked at some things, said g
We're not gonna, be able to get people to rent the nicer units out of this building. If they know they
to share their entrance hallway with poor people, and that is
rob Lamb, yes way, but I also think I mean just the other question about these inclusion. Zoning ordinances when they come in is like one
why are they want it right like
cause one reason to put an inclusion. I mandate under development
is because you do want low income people to be able to live.
in the new developments that happen air, but
Another reason is that you don't want the new developments to happen at all right right. So, like ETA,
five percent subsidized ratio, you are clearly saying we would like some new poor people to move to my neighborhood
yeah right. Five percent is a low number, but like because it's a low number, you will still build those new condos at thy Amber and then there will be some new poor people in town, but you often hear a push to go to like twenty five percent rate
and the question that always raises in my mind, is like: are you really saying there when you want to go from five to twenty five, that the problem is there aren't enough new poor people coming in? Or is this a kind of to use the phrase? I hate virtue, signalling where you're like you don't want to
say no, I just don't want to allow any new people to move here, so I'm just going to create conditions that nobody can ever possibly meet and then it's fine, because everything is still the same way it. Actually it's not verges ignoring it's. The last generation of internet
at home, in a means, its concern. Trolling means that mean nobody. You know this is very potent around schools. Right I mean when you talk to parents and people talk about goods
was the very rarely media in schools in which
Students have like high levels of performance relative to some quantitative, led, determined. You know aggregate of where you would expect them to be where, like, like education, wants, have again idea of school productivity that, like take for granted, that, like the children of refugees, are going to have problems in school, but that, like a good,
school partially overcomes those problems, normal parents, when they say good school what they mean.
It is a lot of white and asian middle class
and spread in waiting and hybrid forming students. They mean stew.
who will not be a burden,
the school that takes the adults attention away from your came right and to those right so that its like
eight school that does a good job of serving kids who have a troubled home life is going to be
paying less attention to the kids, who don't we read, the free are right or it'll, be they'll, be behaviour, problems in class and and Bob Bob Obama and, like that's a huge implicit driver of like what people are,
actually doing on the ground level, including in very liberal cities in which people have a lot of stated. You know affordability concerned yet, and then their actual concerns are not, as stated except for Euro in their private or political.
Lives because a lot of times people are hypocrites right, I mean having their private lives every night. I had so many my son's gonna start next week at our local neighbourhood public school.
it's a majority minority school and- and I remembered over the years you know when to young tongue, other parents and a playground about the school
sounds again and we're back while you
its change in a lot megawatts. What's changing about, you know if you will get very while their renovating the playground, I mean where they are and waiting treves. Yes, yes, there, there planting trees there they're doing what they can. You do. I mean
Both feel a lot of tension between their stated principles around particularly when it comes to their children? Yes, you know their perceived obligation to do what is best for them right right I mean. I do think that this is a serious concern, and I honestly think that this is
ITALY, beyond the scope of things that not only government but lake. I don't even know what social nor like what your plan of attack is for tracking the social norms. Here, like honestly, I kind of default to people need to
more virtuous and keep their eyes on their own paper and have a slightly higher tolerance for disorder and like not see any existence of disorder as like an existential threat to their own well being or the well being of their children. It is it's very interesting, though, because you I'm sure you and I have both had like family come visit us in
you see and the Cincinnati level of disorder that is acceptable and my dc level of order that is acceptable are two extremely different. Baby,
right. In the end you know, there's there's also. This gets into much bigger coils of intergenerational in our young men and what you're willing to accept and self selection of that. But I do think that its at least feasible
forced the question and, like I am now official inner, I'm I'm now taking the matter glaziers role of going well. But if we
built more housing. We can. We can at least be forced the question right right. I assume- and this is this is possibly a dumb question but Matt. I assume that like, if we're talking about
bunch more development. It stops being
unfeasible to ask any given developer to set aside twenty five, rather than five percent of that for affordable housing, right that, like that numerous
can go up. Is the denominator of units goes up, or is it really just kind of
iron law, that because
you're only in individual developer you're, not controlling the entire market. You
really only going to want limited, set aside
fordable housing it I mean, there's questions of scale. Why did if you talking about instead of redeveloping like an empty lot in identifying neighborhood you turning redeveloping single family homes,
point neighborhood, you might want to redevelop bit as like a four unit place right, in which case that their different kinds of
Trains, but I mean, is certainly in the neighborhood level like you- could generate mixed income housing developments like if you
To do and to me I mean really begs the question like two people want to am I it seems to me they don't write, but that its can.
Using like if you ever look at a mayor election in you know,
Lastly, yet more elections and washing DC. Like neither
the candidate says
no, actually, I do not want more, affordable housing in the city.
and presumably the reason that candidates who are trying to beat each other both claim
I want more affordable housing. Is it they believe the voters want politicians who claim to want more affordable housing, but if you put
the table, something like a really big. We change that would definitely generate a lot of additional housing, affordability in all different kinds of neighborhoods.
People would hate that are also a lot of veto. Points rightly reckon it's very easy to propose a plan that some people really lake or that a lot of
people really like, but that fails to an over it
he constituency lake and therefore isn't going to get whether it's the city council vote to move forward weather.
Its permitting any of that could be removed. This is also is these central. Not in my back yard thing right, like went well
May your browser first said she was going to close the terribly dysfunctional homeless shelter and was going to replace it with, like eight separate disaggregated, smaller shelter scattered around the city,
like anybody like oppose that idea and rank clearly the right thing to do. Yes, all of the problems came right when it was like one. Oh, it's gonna go here, yeah and then people. I want that.
Yes, they should be scattered, but not matter not scattered near Ray and that's the problem. I guess it's it's easy to say there should be more market rate development someplace, where you dont let and the debt should finance more affordable development. Someplace that you don't let your threat and that
new kids should go to a school, that your kids don't go travel. The question is is like
can everybody so like hole, had been job together right because right now we're doing the reverse its like we're all holding hands, backing and saying: no, you do it. You can usually, so nobody does right. Why actually all be happier if, like we all accepted a little change,
then all refusing all change, because
None of us says that we want, like total states sprightly, even if you now to get back to the kind of question of what does a city represent. Even if you do believe that the seas primary obligation is to the people who are currently living there, not too high pathetically newcomers, even though they might in that might result in higher aggregate utility like that, does pose a moral obligation on each member of the Polish Lake. Sometimes act in favour of the collective like rank. There is both to be obligations between individual residents of a city
you willing to do things that they wouldn't do in. Like you know, this is a fundamental of political moral question is: under what circumstances can you do that for people who may not look like you write exactly, and I think that it really is just to go back to kind of the school example which I think is intrinsically linked to this conversation in terms of what we say we want to do and what we do. You know my parents sent me two private catholic schools and did not send me to public schools in Cincinnati,
cholera, Ursula Academy by while stating in their politics. My parents are delightful people by stating in their politics very much that they valued public education, but they just did not want me to be publicly educated, and I think that that the eye
the idea of what DORA was saying about needing to accept change
are very much you. I can almost hear people thinking like will. I can accept change, but just not from me that other people
I very much I mean even having this conversation, I definitely
thinking you, I do not live in Georgetown or Cathedral heights, or can't so the idea of like why don't we build massive apartment
things over there or massive kind of mixed income homes.
In Georgia. I, like I, am all for that sound terrific, but Eve
This morning, you I live in a shawl and shot has eight, in my opinion, a glut of Congo buildings and its building
condo building, Greenland and the greens will never go down and it will be cranes forever and hammering for the rest of my natural life, and I like, I don't think so. I dont like it's like I like when I go down to National stadium, what I do frequently there's a song
in point at which it's gone from being like this thing's separated by empty lot,
up to now. There are like angles where he can looking like. Oh this
early to an end. The reason that I don't live in Arlington unless there is legitimate,
is to be made for there's something there
makes a neighborhood attractive that you are
going to change. If you do everything to make that neighbourhood accessible to lots of people and lake, I can to a certain extent. This is just like.
Why you have questions of distributive economics like who gets to take advantage of a neighbourhood that isn't going to look great if ever marry, I'm an open borders in both dimensions? I say builder: let the people Cairo you live in Arlington, though, when he ran
Why don't you all relevant things in,
now. I like to walk to work this.
Move, saga, loaded, Arlington, we're gonna huge construction site across the street. For me, it's great Jose loves it. If we actually lead all zoning land use be done by toddlers.
they're asking about could strike yesterday man this is this is great. I am entirely a bulldozer constituency, but they would have, however, extremely stringent safety requirements. We would all be wearing heart suggested. We were all the time and with with that, I think what you wrap it up. Do you think I'm right here for listening being with us, as the latter washing DC specific talk here, but it applies a lively and some politics is local, and you know, coming in the weeks face recoup invite others to harm. We don't need any construction to bring more members into the air that so
Thanks to our engineer, Griffin Tanner are producer, Bridget, Armstrong, peaceful return on Tuesday,
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-12.