Abraham Lincoln, Nelson Mandela, Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey – some of the greatest leaders of all time. But what makes each of these individuals such a remarkable leader? And how do we define great leadership?
We may be apt to hold on to the traditional notion that leadership is defined by rank and order. But your position or title alone does not qualify you as a veritable leader. Think about it, how many CEOs are there in the world that hold a position of great power, but have a nominal impact on their employees? How many managers aren’t even respected by those that they manage? Even brilliant and innovative individuals can stumble when it comes to finding their voice. Because leadership is not defined by a position, nor it is even defined by intellectual prowess or natural talent – leadership is the skill of influence, something that you can use to impact the thoughts, feelings, emotions and actions of others. And it is the most important skill that anyone of us can master.
Yet as important as leadership is, in today’s world, it’s a rarity. And that’s not because there is a scarcity of natural born leaders. In fact, leadership can be cultivated. Many of us suppose it’s an innate talent, but anyone can become a leader in something that they decide to become masterful in. You could be the leader in your business, the leader in your class, the leader in your own family. You could even decide to become the leader of your own life. There are different types and different styles of leadership. But real leadership starts with the capacity to discipline your disappointment. Because along any journey worth taking, you are going to encounter obstacles, and odds are, you are going to fail. But if you can find a way to connect to yourself, and connect to others, and if you can find a way to break through those challenges, you can become a true leader. And when you strive to serve the greater good – something greater than yourself – that’s when you can become a truly great leader.
Tony and Mary Buckheit recently sat down with General Stanley McChrystal and Chris Fussell to discuss what great leadership looks like today and how to cultivate an infrastructure for success in any organization.
General Stanley A. McChrystal has been called “one of America’s greatest warriors” by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. A retired four-star general, he is the former commander of U.S. and International Security Assistance Forces (ISAF) Afghanistan and the former commander of the premier military counter-terrorism force, Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC). He is best known for developing and implementing the current counter-insurgency strategy in Afghanistan, and for creating a comprehensive counter-terrorism organization that revolutionized the interagency operating culture.
General McChrystal now serves as a senior fellow at Yale University’s Jackson Institute for Global Affairs where he teaches a course on Leadership in Operation. And he co-founded the McChrystal Group in January of 2011 where he is currently a partner. McChrystal Group’s mission is to deliver innovative leadership solutions to American businesses to help them transform and succeed in challenging and dynamic environments.
Chris Fussell is a former Navy SEAL Officer, where he spent 15 years leading SEAL elements in combat zones around the globe. He served as Aide-de-Camp to Lieutenant General McChrystal during McChrystal’s final year commanding JSOC, becoming an integral part of the team that made the Special Operation’s transformation into a successful, agile network possible. Fussell is also a partner at the McChrystal Group, where he leads the McChrystal Group Leadership Institute, where he brings his Special Operations experience and his expertise in leadership development to organizations of all sizes. In addition to being a New York Times bestselling author, he regularly does media interviews, gives keynotes speeches, and speaks to business leaders at roundtables and panels.
In this episode of the podcast, you will hear Tony, General McChrystal and Chris delve into the reasons that leadership no longer comes from a command and control model, but from creating relationship-based change throughout the entire organization and by empowering every single person that is part of your business. And they examine the importance of building trust, remaining flexible, practicing empathy, and creating a culture of shared consciousness. By breaking out of the traditional sense of leadership, business owners can create a more cohesive and more powerful team that is not only more unified, but more efficient, and ultimately, more effective.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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welcome to the podcast. This is totally robins. I'm here with my right arm. Mary, be listening,
very excited to take us. We're gonna be digging deeper into a subject that, I really believe, is one of the most important subjects, most important skills to be successful business.
To be successful, but finding its politics, parenting, wife, and that is leadership, and if you
Talk about leadership its. I think today, one of the biggest challenges- fine, really effective leaders. The challenges we see in society really come. I think from that foundational
So what about who would be the best human being to go after alive today, at least one of the very best? Who really is a person to emulate
leadership in the modern world and that's general standing, the crystal
I M very excited to have him with us, and it is also here with co, author of his book team of teams, the new rules of engagement for Complex World Washington said it was require. Reading for anyone aspiring to twenty percent. Real leadership, that's crests increases. U S. Navy seal officer can step in Asia,
workers background, but if you'll stay with me, let me give you a long
action by a major because who you are and what you ve done. I think most things no, but it's pretty amazing.
Then we're crystals of former commander of the international Security assistance force he's,
The commander was commander of the United States. Forces in Afghanistan is a forced, our general, whose career the? U S, Army stand thirty four years desert shield the Persian Gulf WAR War in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, amazing, but here's
it's the about him. Instead of me forward Events Secretary Robert Gates, the scriveners quote: perhaps the finest warrior and leader of men and combat that I've ever met pretty high marks to come from that secretary, he's created to being the man transformed the joint special forces operations command and really created the foundation that allowed us to kill the tumult. The Tories terrorist,
The twenty first reports about been widened and also their Carling, so interact and Chris
found. It wasn't enough to conduct nighttime raids. They needed a tap into the power information broke problem,
brought outsiders into special operations, intelligence analyse and they started nighttime raids that work be ten times a month eluded three hundred times a month and the information they gotta was monumentally use that information to capture
the top Al Qaeda leaders he spent five years, interact with working to talk commander of Afghanistan, and then he resigned and twenty ten. So I can't tell you how grateful we are to have you. I know. Today Europe joined the Yale University back. We teaching horse on international relations that boy imaginable
given the ear sitting in a class with you, and you wrote her memoirs and twenty thirteen. My share of the task and, of course, willing to talk today about leadership in your book team of teens. So thank you for what you gotta this long introduction, but you, Sir, deserve a general Mcchrystal. Woken up to the park asked and Chris you welcome as well.
I don't know it's an already here. Thank you so much and Crispin over about your background in your relationship with a general european to that that took out a follow, but I spent about thirteen years in the initial teams joined in ninety and was on active duty until two thousand and twelve, the majority that time I served inside of the units that are then
a general Mcchrystal commanded and for one of those years his last year commanding the joints vessel.
Versions units I was his aide de camp soda,
whatever seas. I rack for your.
In addition, it similar to sort of like a chief of staff to the function and in big enterprise
the then went on to the gradual did. Some study was still inside the service on how the
is distributed? Networks were working because
really one of its fundamental changes that have taken place inside of the special operations community went back
to us about feel tourist. Last few years, my career and then two thousand twelve left active duty, join
stand here as partner Mcchrystal disprove and I've been here since we spent the last few years.
working on team of teams, and now we are currently wrapping up a follow up to that which will come out this spring. So it's been a great river.
That's the title of the bow
one mission, many teams,
The idea is, a team of teams
the theory the case on why
Changes are so important and theirs.
a big ask in a market, okay. Well, how do we do it, and so
This is more of a practical told for my optic. As a member of the staff, there was able to watch these changes evolve and trying to give
this. Readers are real roadmap that they can apply their own organisations.
Why can't? I love that? You guys are formed you're, consulting firm, Crystal group, and I do you bicyclists leaders, undoubtedly in doubt the road
that. I switched on beer
here to bring up modern leadership. Really the world we live in today is like nothing would leave efforts grace in human history because of heading three forces. Primarily technology
globalization and then social me was changed countries at the stage where human beings in Iraq, where we think the way we
energy, and the temple of change we all know is so fast is only increasing
so. I really love to hear General Crystal Europe. You up
a rude awakening. I know you're right after nine eleven and want to share with us
How you were raised to be a leader was supposed to be when he was supposed to do how he or she was supposed to be like
versus how have changing times may be changed? What leadership is needed today? I know you talk to the past,
The humiliation style of leadership that you experienced really unique careers ranger
Let me know what the antidote to that is. What most effective today well tat returned thanks for asking.
I probably have a unique period because
came into the military. I grew up in a military family. My father was a soldier. My father's father was a soldier. My four brothers were soldiers by sister married, a soldier
born in an army hospital
when largely Army schools entered west, pointed age, seventeen and nineteen, thirty, two and all
that seems not that long ago. In reality, that was
very long time back in terms of how things were done in leading because it was really closer. The world war two model of military operations and organizations that it goes to a business as well,
and so I began my group, a young lieutenant the army.
Nineteen. Seventy six from I graduated and
I entered an army that was much
closer to the army,
my father and grandfather had been in then the army. I would experience twenty years in my career soil
basic leadership, skills and many were were really good enough.
foundation of integrity and lead by example,
the things that are our basic, but it was a hierarchy
organization there was
Bullshit about his boss in information. Went that way you can almost
Scriveners mechanical in nature of big mechanical machine designed to be very efficient and predictable,
idea, was that if you had Enough
efficiency and their operation and approving predictability.
and you had enough scale than you could make up for
multitude of other weaknesses and big armies were wrestle each other and they would try to be the most efficient based on the field, and that was fine and were really the first point
plus years of my career. I grew up in animal
our men- and I was relative relatively six.
Gospel and learned how to operate, not environmental.
Thought that leaders were command and control function. You got him
information from across your organization. You use your experience, one intellectual had and aided maybe buys you made decisions, and then you directed those to see
down in the organization complied
and if you were a better strategist to desist,
maker than your opponent you and wet, and
that really went on until about two thousand and three and I spent
part of my career in parachute infantry
units airborne units
Rangers and partners joint special operations command, but in two thousand and three I took
manned J sock. Is they called it and the main part of our forces in Iraq,
our biggest problem, was in Iraq and I was six months after the initial invasion
and this was really the transformative time in it and experience.
May because I brought with it all
leadership. I learned the habits, the culture, some good, some not and I became part of eight purpose, built special operate.
his task force. There was designed to go after traditional terrorist networks
designed to do precision, raids
fairly slow cadence, but with great accuracy of intelligence and greater effectiveness on the target, and we had this incredible collection professionals put together,
wit and with painstaking accuracy, weaker
perform these really elegant operations and
was designed to go after.
Image shaped traditional enemy, terrorist networks,
a very strong leader and strong internal cohesion, and they also were somewhat mechanical and that's the way traditional terrorist groups were
The original Al Qaeda was formed a nineteen eighty, eight Pakistan. It was such an entity, but in Iraq, in this
follow two thousand three. We ran into a new beast Al Qaeda in Iraq. It still
had the name Al Qaeda which made you think it was gonna, be tradition. We started to go after it that way,
found is instead
being a twenty every night.
Century entity. It was twenty first century
and turning would you mentioned about changes.
in Iraq, which is different from traditional Al Qaeda as
whoever is from our traditional bus company. It was designed to ride
information technology and when I say design, I don't think
was designed by everyone.
about how we is the evil genius you put together this concept. It came
to be that way organically, because now social media information systems and globalization were part of the dna of the
blue founded, and so they automatically formed. This entity
was more like a constantly changing network without strict doctrine, without strict hierarchy without strength prescription.
Procedures, but as a result, they were constantly adapting. They were constantly able to do what was best at the moment as opposed to what
the procedure in the men will set and despite the fact we had more talent, we had more weapons. We had
In my view, everything for the first time
they have years in the fight against this organization. We have
tremendous problems because they were fast,
they were lethal may well resilient and they were constantly
Turning to a changing environment- and we came in almost like a foot-
all team, with a set of really good plays, and suddenly we
find ourselves on a basketball court and our cleats in our heads were not very helpful show.
Relatively late. My career, I'm part of it
organization that some lead. What has to change to be effective,
the changed aware and so on.
I was lucky enough to be a part of this trend,
information and it
in the way. I think about our organizations operate in the environment that you describe, but also what leaders have to do that in bar
You know you, you talk about their leaders, stop you seek to use at the start, trying to control everything and epithets.
You know the command and control model. That pyramid is the traditional way, leaders of always thought and even small businesses of the tendency. There is, I know the answers. I've got a direct this, but, as you said, what happens, is the organisation gets bigger? You just don't have the nimble miss you can't shifting? That's why we see the Aubert take over a become valued. More then Hurts- or you know you see, Araby and be coming along and their values
and their impact is greater than the merry yachts had got more revenue and it's been around how bloggers and example so we're living in this world, where you have to move from controlling, I think you described as is really being predicting for predicting to weaken.
Figure into this ability to adapt, tell me little, but how you made that transition and what does that really look like today? Well you're, exactly right at the first
about it is a big organization- is faced with this kind of environment. With this kind of competition there is a tendency to
well. We now in information technology should we can gather more data. We can do better analysis and we can come
it came with our organization better than ever so. There's this
illusion that we actually can command and control and just do it better than before, faster and more effectively, and that
really really deceptively,
doctor for many leaders, and so we see a lot of organizations, try it and
There is also a human child is well when someone's put in charge of an organization
as a leader. They think that they are the best qualified person,
to make decisions. They are gonna, be held responsible for the outcome, so there is a tendency to one
The decisions that determine it
and then there is also this almost a sense of guilt. It says vine
see ya around the manager. I ought to be making decisions for I'm not doing my job and
I ran into all of those in my initial part of my time in June.
Special operations command, but I
found that you just can't win that way. In fact, what you have to do is take the tools that
typically enable the sea, sweet or senior leaders to get more information.
they control, we have to turn knows back down.
For the lower levels of your organization, so informing
you can't do it don't run up to inform vision, both
ways, but, most importantly, they run down, and so you push information down to levels so people at the end,
he's, your organization are provided context more than ever before we called shared consciousness. They suddenly get the strategically
a picture of what the organizations doing as well what they see in their particular part
and then we say: ok, we'll informed
With this now, we want you to act using your best judgment, because Europe be able to do it faster and more close to them,
problem accuracy than anybody else.
It was a major cultural shift for us and genocide, but
Please that's exactly what happens. You actually find by letting go of a lot of control and its very uncomfortable
You actually get a much better outcome, because your leveraging so much more talent then that the small group of people
might be at the impact of the organization
You just said something really important to me personally and that as leverage that control in a lot of people delegate- and they say you know delegation very often- is I told them what to do when I told them even the outcome to get me didn't get it, but they never sticking.
Did until the task is done and then they see it, they elder may blame the person or it succeeded in they take mutual credit, but you know steep: when is a good friend of mine is built and most have LAS Vegas
Now, he's told me over and over again the exact same approach is how he's built as businesses. He said you know it's gotta, be this lever
back and forth information back and forth, and he looks at the front lines at the
place where he understands what's really happening, what the customers are, clients who shared with made it every day
have a meeting and with the whole company they do and what he digs. Sport is information to learn about
customers and clients and he wandered around and have those conversations, and he gave me an example of talking to a bell. Many said the bellman have helped them change more processes and the company than anywhere else in the hotels, because they know exactly what the experience
of the customer- and he said one day, the Spellman and he's up by the weather always looking for success stories to tell the build their culture, which I want to know how you build. Europe is more difficult task. When bullets are being thrown at you, you're trying to coordinate people that are both in the service and outside the service and from other countries, but his approach is he talks. This Domini finds out
the story of what has been great today, how we serve the customers in the bellman hears a person coming in in this woman. Her husband are there and she realizes is there
in the room that she had forgotten. Lee medication at her husband needs to stay alive is a diabetic so she's freaking out and the opposite. The bellman here since as well. Where do you live? He thought he heard. They lived in LOS Angeles and five hours Vegas and she said TAT. We live in San Fernando Vow.
This is why a brother in law, the lives there. Why don't you call him and see if your private out here for you this is the type of
decision making, because there are now this all happens within ten hours, he gets everything he needs and those stories completely change the hotel. Another example that I give because I'd like to hear the examples bring your culture building would be Doktor David, fine burger runs used to run, you see, allies, medical centres and its huge task and his biggest challenge at the lowest ratings that you could possibly happen.
People are gonna hospital until I care taken care of, and he got their ratings up within a year that were higher than the four seasons Hotel, the Ritz Carlton. In terms of satisfaction,
did. The same thing you did. He took
information that people didn't realize and pushed down. He went down to the base of the business and to the hospital.
what could be pushed up any empowered people to make their own decisions once they have that shared consciousness, and it's your conscious
beam was treat every person's zip at your mother,
If it was your mother, what would you do what you tell em? No, we won't give your past to get a taxi cause. You don't qualify what you tell them, what you make them sit here, wait for hours. You know what you ve come in and turn the lights on when their sleeping just dump out the trash, and he now he did that buddy empower them. On one example, we gave me with the example of a woman who is coming in to have her baby and today they nurse overheard that our mother was dying of cancer in a hospital in San Francisco. She called the hospital she arranged a flight and arrange to have the operation done it. You see a way so that the mother was dying would be able to be there to meet your granddaughter before she passed and share their experiences with her mom. These types of pushing information, both
corrections and empowering people the base build the greatest organizations in the world, your task with a hundred times more difficult and Chris, maybe you can share as well, because from both of you on this, but most people, don't think realize you guys are managing general crystal at one stage here what twenty two people and twenty different countries?
just managing soldiers who are trained to respond but you're, dealing with a new type of soldier with a whole different mentality and you're dealing with people outside the surfaces in these other countries trying to coordinate the political process as well as military process, tell us how the hell did you do that? How do you build that culture? It's great to share the information, push it up and down and get people to make local decisions? But how did you get that shared culture? How did you get that shared consciousness? How do you build trust and faith? I think the words that you describe- and I read your book within groups- a huge shared one example. Maybe I can give you this example about off up. I think he's here
One time that you have come up with this, I'm credibly difficult task. There were people from twenty countries involved. You have a share information. You have to get everybody on board. How to build the trust, given that a thief a thick and when you have to sell you know your superiors on the task and then it didn't work. The mission failed
So how do you build the trust initially? But I'm really, I should. What do you do after failure to build? That's all I know said a lot here, but maybe we start with how do you bilbil
culture that shared consciousness, and then how do you keep it going when you face these incredibly difficult challenges that, in the short term, work like failure or they may just be failure of a battle of an approach? But people take it in how do you deal with
Yeah boy and the steep when stories are amazing: twenty, what my
Nor am I challenge was I had this wonderful qualified people, talented
so I didn't have to teach them how to do their particular functions, but it was connect.
The functions together, because the different counter terrorist units in our organization, you think that they're all close friends
because they're kind of similar the reality is the very competitive people they got. Tribal cultures
They don't naturally work well what their other organizations
and then you take a step further and you go to the Department of State or the F b I or the CIA, and each has
his own frown
insular culture, that does it naturally work.
lines in theirs. There's reasons for that
they ve grown up and at their proud there's infamy
sharing limitations. Because of awe.
Secrecy there's a little bit of their equities. Everyone.
Innovation wants to be the best and wants to get credit for Windsor's issue competitiveness,
for all these reasons, why you think you can have this big synergistic collection
that you really doubt- and so
when I found is across the twenty. Seven countries were operating
All of these different organizations and personalities involved that my requirement was not
push people harder to make em harder my requirement in order to make them work harder. My requirement was
to teach them how to do their functional job, my requirement was to be a connector. My
requirement was to move around the organization, orchestrate conversations creek
actions much
Steve Windows, we did a daily video teleconference across the entire command, and I
was really sure the ringleader, for I didn't, make a lotta decisions or give guidance, but
I would make sure that people across the organization and didn't know each other didn't think they had shared equities were connecting because we're trying to feed a networked enemy.
you, create those connections and
easy to say on a part cast its heart,
to do, because people are naturally hesitant.
and so what we did was we started created the connections we nurtured it. We would celebrate successes. People would take risks
Send somebody from the CIA would give information to one of my units and we would have a success, would celebrated, but the people who passed him for
They were always a little scared that they might get in trouble or particular. If there was a failure, something would happen and then you
yeah you mention a case which was
shared in my memory. We have worked for months to get a strike in against it,
enemy terrorist leader actually in EAST Africa and
I had to go all the way to the White House for approval and
went up to the White House, and it was politically sensitive, militarily dip,
All we got approval in we conducted
operation and in
reality at the end of the day,
What we ask for is not exactly what we needed, but we
should what we asked for, and it didn't work.
And so we had always be brought the chain of command to the White House
hold your breath and then I had to go guy I come to you I'd ask you to give me a poem
do that she gave it didn't work, and so first I had to deal with the lack of come
were certainly some reduction in confidence in my senior leaders in me
inside the organization, I'd ask everybody, can take a chance, reach out collaborate and we'll have the success in a dick and
Fortunately, what happened is, of course, and try to communicate
study, what had happened in form, everybody come where we made mistakes and where we didn't, we gotta go,
chance added about five weeks later and the second time fortunate,
we succeeded by, but it's a competent state, because people need to be reinforced at what they're doing. Ok and not just ok, that's it
spected! That's the way you want it to be. That way. You want organizations to operate and that's a challenge. I liked to pass the quest for a moment it dad in well. I, like the way example
Stand has told us treat everybody out on the like they're, your mother and we'll get
I say that because what would really did happen was a there
very relationship based change
are kidding aside. That was not a directive, but there was a quote along the lines of urine these off. These barely highly try
Small teams, as you can well imagine
the word from our leadership was treat other teams as if they were part of your team and for someone like myself growing up in a sealed teams to here. I have to talk with this army unit and this airforce preside over here.
A pistol in knowledge. It that's a really big tribal barrier to try break through and then the men
It's from our leadership. Where had in the past it will.
Very transactional. You do this and you do this. That's what we were used to hearing when it shifted to treat these other teams, as if their part of your tried and hold you accountable
that level of connectivity and relationship building, that's a whole different way to approach it and, coupled with these information flows, much like me,
apple. You gave Tony in a way that stand described, running the global for
You had access to all the information that you could possibly want. Cadence there was faster than Al Qaeda was moving, so there was really no excuse not to
that cultural shift, and if you didn't want to do it, do you you just couldn't operate in this environment. So it really empowered and expected teams to get out in front of that transactional relationships there.
No excuse to wait for guidance. You you had to know enough connect the dots inside of the extended networks that were being bill and take action, knowing that you know that there's there's risk
time. You do that, but this is the system that the leadership is doing for us in this the risks they expect us to take. So
really a really different ass flipping near the pyramid. Aunt said in a way: how are you
after those situations that heavy rebuild that they know
well. You know a member, a story. I think it was then team of teams were. You talked about general. Some of the Euro
You have to put in some rules structures,
for all these organizations. They got these young soldiers coming over. Wanting do
our duty- wanted to kill bad guys for the higher good, so to speak.
and you know there are living in an environment that different than any environment. We would traditionally think of his war and you're telling people what they can't needed. There can engage people, they don't have a gun.
During their mind going? What are you talking about these people? We turn our backs. Are gonna blow us up, so I know there were times many times in which, whether you know things didn't we
or there were just general discontent in an environment where people coming back again and again tour after work, but you
red and where it was written, the rolling stones articles where it was where you
describe it. You went out you not a soldier write to you and talk to you about you, don't care
and you running back immediately and then you showed up and did actually toward with them, or I should say we're on patrol with him and other members of his team. I've heard other people talk about some things, that I've read that you know you're the guy that they look over and this guy the trench on any beside him. And it's you. How important is that? And how do you rebuild after
Those failures: that's what I'm digging for a little bit, because everybody deals that you have to deal with it on a life and death level, but every business deals with failure. Nobody wants to talk about. Everyone start about success, but I really believe it's how you do a failure to change your destiny and when people succeed they tend to party when they feel they tend to ponder and pondering you
beat yourself up where you find you answer. So how do you we build on those situations? Occur? Yeah. I think it's exactly right
and to go to the story. You describe what had happened.
in Kabul as the forced our commander, and I got an email from a sergeant in an area north of Kandahar
very difficult area, any basically goes. Sergeants don't run on emails to force. Stars are evil
Robert implemented General. I dont think you wonders
and what's goin on here. I
I know you're giving orders from their out that you understand this war and I thought I did, but I got on him,
after the next day and went down there to join his squad for a combat patrol and it was. It was amazing
guys, although I've been on a lot of different crops, they were operating in an area that was used for vine growing, grew grapes
but because there's no wood or not lotta, wouldn't Afghanistan's. They use mud walls instead of trellises to hold up
the vine, so, what you get is, if you think of corduroy, but with it
what ridges six feet high, you have
early square miles of what consists of a maze of men
walled areas and they were operating against
the Taliban in this area, and it was like operating in a rat's maize, with incredible
and your cosy enemy can put your your start going inside. The registry inside these furrows
he put mines it also they can just turned a corner Jean should there's no could go so
there are hurting in there, and I went down and spent an entire day and combat mission with him. At the end of that
We sat. We talked about the war, I explained it from my perspective. They explained it for mayors,
think I was able to give them a better the bigger context of what we were trying to do, that
certainly able them to give me great.
understanding, and then I went back to common about
Three weeks later, I got an email from the same sergeant and he said
and I had gone on on a patrol with one of his fire teams
a format team led by a sergeant, eddies,
sergeant, exit just been killed
Well, I got quite well Charlotte
back down again the next day,
and went on another combat patrol with them, because it you know,
I wasn't gonna make their combat patrol easier and
I wasn't gonna, really add to the combat effectiveness of it-
I think it is important for them to know that I cared enough. It was. It is important periodically
We share the hardships and sometimes the danger because
you need both display the apple.
but you also need to understand. You need
walk a mile in their shoes to understand what is likely.
It makes it easier for them, but you can certainly convince them what they're doing matters and that you are willing to take the time to do that and when something
males. I think it's the same way. Sometimes somebody or an organization does something, and it doesn't come out well,
come a little bit of a pariah. You noticed, suddenly everybody kind of awaits him, doesn't say much to see if they're, not everybody thinks it might be contagious right, but but the reality is the opposite. You know it's. George Patten said it's not what you call it. I have how high you bout Dat, really the time when you ve got to reach them
you gotta get with him. Tell him they're, not you're. They made
failed, but they're, not a failure and
That's where leadership lies of events demonstrate
blame which is usually when failure happens,
It really sounds like your model, if I was gonna grossly simple via its moving from command and control to where the power is in relationships and you're using haven't use technology to do it, you can always be there to touch the guy shouldered. Look him in the eye, but in spite of technology
You still made a point to do that. You know how much of that relationship is built by the code. I mean you talked Chris about you know the different tribes, these incredible special forces teams,
sample, I know you know, maybe you could share the Ranger Code and how that bonds, the Rangers and then what becomes the code when you try to bring these travel groups together about the here about from the ball. Georgia
You said it I think, starting out, every always tribes have their only that seal teams are there.
Pirates of the organization, you know, don't really pay attention to the rule book down. Another one exists here: the Rangers are the ultimate discipline, force,
the has everybody has our own various specialty, all really good strengths, but when you transmission together, obviously we were, I was bred in
I think that the Rangers were sort of an odd called before every in them and they were british think the same thing about seals. Ain't right, so you just you, have all these biases, never on the battlefield together and obviously all at all attention can can begin. But the
what I really believe happening. What can happen when, when leaders approach
their organizations. With this sort of style saying, I know
Everybody has there really
wrong? Narratives there there tribal norms that are incredibly powerful, outbreak, history and you're doing good things out there in the field, wherever it, whatever instrument must be, but we need to tie into a higher level approach that that unifies us. So are
story, it was told to us every day by our senior leadership was, if we'd all become.
Global organization that trust each other and that
lives on relationship then we're going to fight.
bunch of little wars. Everyone can have themselves on their backs on the back and we're gonna lose so it suddenly puts you.
As an individual member of that organization in in a black and white sort decision, space
where I can either just think about being in a sealed
two in part of the little band of brothers.
potentially lose, or I can overcome these tribal boundaries and bind this relationship. Ideas are reaching
cross in other team, sharing information sharing insights and helping
the Ranger unit or the airport sooner earlier and other folks, as if they were part of my own team in and that it doesn't happen.
overnight. It was not an order that came down and to do this, it was a constant reminder. Everyday,
from our leadership. You earlier point,
highlighting examples of where this week's succeeding that get gave everyone the road map to attract toward when it came to that cultural change. The technical step was gonna, take care of itself. It was that culture,
That was the critical part. Twenty gonna jumping on priorities a little baby, whether it was
not that I had to learn when I was a young, went to West
when I remember they were fanatical about every piece of discipline of your uniform and what not in different parts of
a career. There were these
of the priorities of things had to do in some of my thought were pretty pointless, and some are more were very good.
when I got into a special operations command in combat what I felt
and over time was established certain priorities, but can be very
accessible on others, because if you say everything's important, if everything just gotta do everything exactly this way, then it's hard to tell him once more.
important? So I remember the organizations wanted different baseball hats at one point- and I said knock yourself out
They say what we want to go beards, I said great Bluebeard would have earned it, but the things and that one
earlier in my career, that would have been absolute heresy because you never do that right, but instead of the things that were very important
how they conducted certain operations, the speed of the Temple they operated. I was
absolutely unwavering, and so I think what
happened. Was it helped? If you can pick certain priorities and
in very clear to everybody
then be willing to say the other things. Don't matter very much. I'm ok,
if you blow them off yet
when I found particularly with that culture of people, it was
two in and turn out to be very effective over Europe
We addressing is what small companies and big companies deal when they talk about how to deal with millennials. Guess it's a
world it's not at their, not used to being commanded used to being the center of the focus and that perhaps your background of I've heard it accurately as one you're in West point.
that. You are a person that color bucked authority right to the edge but knew where does that? Is that a fair representation of you at that stage of your life?
Well, I'm not sure you were to stop the record. I could have done better
really that's nice. I remember you telling a story somewhere Olympics. I was reading where you said it. Are you one of the ways to work to bring everyone together to get that
Common sense of mission was very often you know in your conversations
man would be say where were you on nine eleven and one of the story?
you shared was that you said this to this. The soldier, any weapons that I was in the sixth grade
you know how doing with all these different ages in stages, how are you able to keep that relationship with them and in spite of the kind
The challenge is their facing us in the rangers. You know you, the traditional discipline you describe.
Greece have a model may be sure that model that no matter what happens in our own to come for you maybe explain what that did, and then how do you create that with this diversity Chris addressed the
about a higher power, but it will be your your point of view about them. You helped me in the Rangers traditionally we had this one
for culture of discipline and we had arranged creed and a famous line of that
under no circumstances will leave a falling comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and at me
and whether the person is wounded or the person is in
already dead. We're not
want to leave you and it's up
Almost every ranger makes to every other ranger make in credit
bond between them. No one of these days
I found interesting since you mentioned: millennials is as
We got into the fight here and things,
had changed so much from the army of my youth.
What we were doing on the battlefield was something I had never done
so they were fighting a war with a tactics and equipment. I just had never done so.
Is I'm dealing with these units have on the battlefield, whereas one
was young at the corner of the general came
they are sorted. This example
the figure that theoretically knew everything, and we should
listen to their wisdom, actually I didn't have the wisdom to offer
so as I would go round the organization I spent most of my time asking them. What are you
doing what works? What doesn't work? What do you need
to do more, because.
It was really a classic case of mentoring. I had to figure out what
were figuring out. I had to help cross level that across the organization,
Interestingly enough, I was at first concern that my ignorance, as that would be a vulnerability and their people,
look at me and say: well, if you don't know, what's goin on, why you, the command general
It would have been fair question, but that's not the response. I got that's not
how they seem to result in a day
to appreciate that I was willing to say I don't know, and they say
appreciate the respected.
you give them. When you ask them, tell me what works tell me what to do,
in particular millennials.
to do well without because you know it
smarter, smarter than ass. A tourist
I give you the example of that, as the role that played on this, the senior staff- as that
The camp part was short of movement around about your friend and also input into these bigger communicate
so those are two areas that people say well, how do you know where to go and how to structure agendas for people talk?
because of the interconnectivity connectivity that was built inside the organization. Those things came,
ask as that staff it was, it was ever worked at a military where people want,
normally
the senior leadership to show up and Guide inspector area whenever that was completely reversed. We had more requests for visits in liquid.
We can handle so you're always index as against priority areas, because people knew it.
the new leadership shows up. We can have a real, honest, transparent conversation. They're gonna get a better since it what's going.
on your and that will affect their strategic decision making very quickly when it comes to resource allocation, etc. This sort of thing and the same thing in his big communication struck the agenda shaped itself
people understood the priorities that the leadership and then they would be the ones reaching out to say. While I need five minutes to talk about this, I need ten minutes to talk about this. Everyone needs it
read this white paper on what's going on in my sector, so people saw
It is not as a burden but as an avenue to really inform and drive operations on the ground. It really, sir. I think this language may come from your general read so much absorbed so much, but our work for the location was, but
Really, it sounds like you're approached leadership was so radically different. It's based on relationship, its listen learn.
Lead and not not, as you say, not
bad about that, because how in the world can you possibly not be mentored options that are measured down when technology is creating, so me specialities
You spend your time, try to understand that you couldn't actually strategically lead. But when you look at that that change, when you look at the type of shipping, it's happening,
we get people today to have more empathy, because I really there
would you guys have had to have more of you? Haven't you wrote that you know empathy values not seen that make it an boardrooms today in the house
create that, because if not the picture, you pick up General Patten, that's not what I think a lot of people. Think of that
accessible, general, much less successful, ceo yeah?
powerful ones. I found today because the world is cheap, leadership has to change and that sense of shared values and empathy and liability not blame, but.
The and teach seems to be absolutely critical to be an effective leader today, yeah, I absolutely
that's right. If you, if you think of an organization, is a big sort of nineteenth century sailing ship with sails and waters and all the different things that have to constantly adjusted because of the wind in the sea and whatnot- and you say, ok great leader, do it and yet
get personal run around and do less excuses you possible
impossible to to yell out enough commands,
the organizations got into a lot of what they just nourish right, and so my opinion is what the leader
now we create an environment where people just like Steve winded that that individual felt it
Howard enough today,
his brother in law to get the medication and bring it they're. Stephen
smart enough to celebrate that, so I think that you have to create it,
farm, where you are admitting that the organization is a team.
Your role on the gene is a facilitator. You you're not.
Traditionally, the person who tells everybody what to do but your creating an environment where people feel comfortable to do it
it's not always gonna work and when they make
stakes, that's ok, but
The thing is the entire organization is is operated and I think that's a big shift,
traditional leadership and I think someone
pressures in society work against this, because if you look
you ever see YO and theirs,
something happened in company ex down at the edges.
Company people say
shit yeah. Did you know that this person of your fifty thousand employees did this didn't do this
the sea uses. No, I didn't know that. Why did you know that
when reality is. We don't want him to always know every detail,
that's a fool's errand to try to do that.
We do want to know understanding a surely organization
that's how you gonna fix things, I'm
bored of an airline and I'm on the safety committee in
Safety is not just a check list. You jack safety culture where air
everybody sheep sees things in his cup steadily, adjust to them, and I think,
The leadership is today. I would you describe
that you know you really doktor didn't find burger ran his away
he was a psychiatrist and he was running and one plenty psychiatric hospital. But he wasn't really running with the largest asked.
The nations of the world and they all have their own code. Just like a military right. All these short letters, you didn't know what ninety percent of the people are saying when he first took over, but it was the same component of empathy, the sink
listen and learning spent the first three months walking around
I think everyone is talking to patients as well staff and finding out what made him crazy
What made him angry? What made him hurt? What really work, what really didn't, and instead of being up the staff he kept coming up with this empathetic approach of its your mom and when they failed
brought the failure for sport and under all, unlike you show up, there was a woman who was given
operation with that she was not supposed to, they must have the paperwork and in which it
was the go home. She didn't have money for carbonate, trimmed down for a taxi driver free taxi Basque.
and so she money get mostly home want the rest. The way we found out about this,
drove to the woman's. All personally apologize brought her back after cheer the story with all the staff, the doctors, nurses, everybody to see what they did, what it meant to her when she felt and how to changes of this kind of approach of nurturing a culture. I think the language used in your book was its less today. Leadership about playing chess than is being a gardener. Maybe you can.
what that means? You know, that's that's exactly right. Tell me you know four years, I thought that chess master
the best analogy to six
for leader, because a chess master control, six sixteen chest pieces and moves them and if he's a glitch or she is a good strategist, they win.
or micromanaging each other's chest pieces, and when I got into a rack, I started that way, and then I
found out that my opposition AL in Iraq was not a chess master,
pieces? It was a set of chess pieces at all connected and had relative autonomy shows. A concept
Whence there's no way. One person can defeat a multiple group like that, its customary adapting
just slowly and I I didn't suddenly have a regulation on some sort of,
center to learning? Yet I realize that
Gardiner is a better analogy for because, if you think what a gardener does a gardener, does
grow. Anything only plants can grow things. Better.
Gardeners critical, because the gardener creates the environment, the gardener for
ground the gardener plans to gradual waters,
feed weeds protection at the appropriate time. Harmless at the gardener,
you're right. All those plants can do that concurrently and so suddenly you can scale but the
The gardener is completely busy. It's not.
it is not a case of empower your support.
let's go home and let me know how that works. Your constantly
acting the garden, but the gardens plants were able to do it, and so I believe it's it's a less.
Egocentric way of leading
it takes a little bit of curry,
to do it, because you are allowing your entities to execute, there's, always a chance. It's not gonna come out and you're gonna be a responsible, but it's
Why do the only way that elaborate and environment
changing fast and it also has the added benefit. The people who are doing it with you feel like they are partners they don't they.
they are employees of the mere ma. Am, I might add, scripture the young. You know it it's easy to read that, especially like a gardener and was a description of bank. This is a soft approach. I didn t like that.
it's an appropriate approach, I think for the information age, because it allows leader to set conditions, but there was actually him up. In my experience in the ethical it's going,
in progressive organizations. There's a truly heightened level
accountability down into the small teams, because you're
that the senior leader for cheaper, saying, ok, I get it here's what we're trying to accomplish. I will tell you everything about that. I can about our strategy in our view,
tell me what resources you need. Tell me what information you tell me, what decision authorities you need your level and then go to it, and so that's true empowerment, apparent, isn't an hour. You, the parliament, comes with all this
stop. It makes it possible and then I know I felt it in teams often feel it. That's a scary place debate when you're used to being able to complain about the senior leadership
Did they? Let you do it? I didn't give you at the entire, whatever the case my day. Suddenly, when all that's at your fingertips- and you just have to know how to reach into the garden to expect extending algae taped it to make that happen, that can be afraid,
in place for junior leaders to be its, whether asking for when you really granted to bear it takes its new muscle for many parts, the opposition to get your company one or careful what you were right. I read that the description and the rolling stone article described adrenaline said that while you were so pathetic and can
did it and respected. You had the with one: look: the ability to have a man through your eyes about single recovered himself melt that they didn't want
disappoint you. So I think it's really important grist to point out that it's not that you don't have strength. Still it's just that the folk
is truly on empowerment and it's a humble approach, but it still approach where results are expected. A myriad of question three guys do hello, general, occurs,
Thanks for joining us have a question for you to have to say you know you guys talk about a treat every everyone you meet like your mother, I think as a young woman, and I think this is pretty universal. I think you treat every wise man that you meet like your father General Mcchrystal.
remind me so much in so many ways and my father- and I think you know he served
in the army and he was out by the time I was born. But you never note by the way, ran are household
I think you would have told you had six little soldiers,
sure she was. He needed, your gardener both for I worry that order, and I just talking about millennials you and Chris had mentioned. You were running around that you agreed grander Jimmy Carter and April nineteen. Eighty effort, you say I wasn't even born yet at that time I love speaking of two men like you who just offer this perspective. I think at this time where America is that I find myself as a young.
when looking for looking to senior leadership is a little bit more big picture, but Germany crucial in wanting you're talks. You wrote, he said we have to look at the hard statements, hard statements like a man,
it doesn't leave well anymore, which means Americans don't leave on anymore, which I do not believe, and I don't think you do either I was raised to Believe- is a great country. I think, for the first time in my life, I do find myself just just sphere for maybe of saying do why? What is the state of leadership site go to someone like you with history, just like we need to learn just that whole top down mentoring and top up mentoring. At this point, I think a lot of young people are looking to men like you and saying
You ve seen it all. You see what we haven't seen. What is what's a true picture of the America that we live in today and the leaders that America has today merge great question. Of course you make me feel burial, that's fair!
why? Why why she said why not last weekend at my second grandarter born site, I'm starting to really feel marched come here. I think your question is really good. An inn.
put its, how I think about it. This is one guys opinion.
We were raised with the idea that American
as an exceptional place. It is you know that the most favoured favorite
vision in the world just lucky in many ways.
and if you look at short of the sweep of history from World war, two on the baby boom
our generation and after today, although we ve
you wanna Bumptious, grinds for sure we
generally gone from this position at the end of world war, two where we were forty six percent
of the world's gross national product. I mean we had this just increase
position in a largely damage world
and saw America has had a pre eminent position and to beyond
two degree act together. We let it go to your look back. You know, as I do
is it going around the world to different places and sir
and I've seen opportunity
that Americans take for granted. That absolutely is not anywhere within reach. A whipping
in other countries that are just as good a People'S- we are just as smart justice values driven, but they just don't have an opportunity. I think that America,
probably needs to look at itself in the mere right now and say: wait a minute, nothing about him,
Africa is automatic, God didn't son,
only one day say America? This is you are the United States? You have
does she will be a great country? It really was a group of people who came together and created a covenant between themselves to create a nation at great risk and it significant.
First and then
forebears built it with a lot of flaws.
Over many many years
and now, instead of us, look
and say why are you know with great it's not great anymore. You know who did this to me
I think we need to look in the mirror and say: ok, if it's going to
be what we wanted to be. It's going to be also be what we make.
We're gonna have to look at each other at every age in every,
grounded every zip code in America and Morgan
I have to say if the United States of America is going to be a good place to live, and I'm not talking about international power
talking about. Does it deliver on them
Some dreams of the people who are Americans then we're.
And have to make that way. It's not an automatic thing, and so
I think our sense of citizenship in the union
states words for for many of us.
probably has eroded a bet. We think that if we pay taxes- and we vote
We check the blacks and I would argue, no citizens.
it is also about responsibility for other citizens and
so I would say that when I think of America at this time, we feel like me
we lost some of our sense of amnesia
around the world and our sense of awe
I'll bet. Well, that's ok if it would be better if we approach this with. In my view,
gee melody, I'm you met, humanity are hard, things are, but also a sense of resolve, and that's why I think leadership comes into. I think leadership.
Shouldn't continent the weakest dark,
corners of our personality, which all of us have shouldn't,
shouldn't someone in us our fears and it shouldn't it shouldn't play
the petty side, that is in each of us at times
added should driver.
pull out of a sense of how we can be a little better than we were yesterday,
We can be better than we think we are we
and be as good as people hope will be
I think that's where we have to go in, and I consider that soaring rhetoric. I consider that practical role of your sleeves, ok, we're gonna, fix this. It's on us
It's only two generations- and I certainly my generation- should take a lot of responsible.
Before where we are and where we are, but your generation.
Right or wrong is gonna. Have yours
Israel lapping ended the same charges or approach a bit that your pretty strong about that marries with me. I want our perspectives. A different generations is a brilliant waves. At least he's got around current successor cheese built. That's great to hear that I'm curious talking about leadership here. What, where things that you talk about a lot, is that we have to get more uncomfortable with the unknown. I often met, often almost always when I'm teaching people say that the quality of your life is in direct proportion to the amount of uncertainty you can comfortably will not survive the country we live with, as if you have to be certain about everything your world was limited. You're gonna keep doing the same things you ve always done in certain structure, so you said before the leader isn't good, because they're right, what makes a clear really great, what would be
to be crystal clear. I'm a crystal clear excuse me: what would be? What is what is your definition of leadership tonight? What makes of any great leader today? You know it's interesting, yes, that, because, when I receive a
no sir. Just at West point I asked my father would spend a career in the military and a lot of
combat? What makes it a commander?
and he said well in combat
can tell who is not a good commander, and I said
Ok, who's that he said
ass the person it keeps asking for more information or intelligence. They gotta do an operation. I keep asking for intelligence and similar, but should want intelligent, should nights. He says, of course, it
responsible to want to know as much as you.
And mitigate risk, but there is a point beyond which you
trying to mitigate wrists, zero and that's not possible, and what happens is peoples,
to do that. We see this business all the time they want to get more information, more information and
Does it delays them from taking action
as they want to be sure
There is no risk involved in their decision and as a whole,
to quench. Where is their typically
to when they had to operate
so I would say that this uncertainty, the thing it's made it so much harder than before. As you mentioned at meetings everything's going somewhere
faster now that the required
and to decide and act has been compressed information.
Come more quickly, but instead of information, just come more quickly comes at this hour, ledge and so
the typical decision maker ism?
constrained by a lack of information are constrained by lack of ability to digest
It makes sense about it act
they can get into analysis, paralysis and
people say, will no problem, because now we got big data and we got the computing power to crush
so we're gonna saw them.
But the reality is. Information is growing faster than our ability to bring down
Catherine, so that's gonna be an aid, but it's it's
actually gonna, be even more so in the future because of the speed and the complexity of things,
big. One point: is it's a really interesting when you look at the arm, you, don't you look
small teams in cyberspace operation spoonies, especially I really anywhere the military. I bet it's more EU level, then you can see this in sport, etc. Obvious about feels is largely on answer, so you have. You have to become flatter teams train as a cohesive unit, for
sometimes years together, so that they can step up an oligopoly, milliner middle nowhere
and they know they can do one thing. Well, it's adapt in the moment because there in a world of mass of uncertainty, sometimes but they know they can adapt to one of his situation presents right. So I think are the best leaders in our community then adopted. That is their own personal behaviour
probably correlates quite closely as you get more senior they uncertainty goes up, but those it had developed. A real core ability to adapt to the situation were whip, Woodworth, comfortable, balancing that resource reward in the uncertainties space and it's really wanna coordinator.
I shall taken weight knowledge, birds from this whole soul. Adapt this whole capacity to be resilient seems to be more important than planning today that true, I take it
absolutely true, because things are going to change so fast. Now, it's Heraclitus said you know,
step and the same river twice
you're not gonna, come up with the same solution to a very similar problems twice and haven't come out right.
So the reality is, I think, you're gonna be in a constant learning, constant adaptation mode. Four I for forever yet
our group the we we worked with a while back, really took this took hold of this, as there are structural model
is one of the senior leaders actually said to us. I would put my strategy online on January:
first every year. If, if I was allowed to because I know my competition would download it and that's what they would do all you, they were chased that strategy, and I know the strategy gonna dig eight three weeks into the year because someone's gonna happen. I continued my organizational and adapt throughout the year I dont need. The static plan sets a baseline and then I'm gonna move from there. I teach your business be bought her brother business, twenty garden, fifty percent a year, my promise to them when they come to our fight. They immersion programme these these programmes in one of the things that we have it
of these people is having a five year. Does this point today is a joke? You no seven years ago there was an Iphone and you may think about how our lives changes such push up your time. I also thought
with rage value at everyone. Had one guy in the world manage two hundred sixty five
billion dollars and a good friend, and he was Saint Tony. You know one of the biggest problems for intelligent people is very often the terrible investors
because they want to before they make a decision. They want to be certain that they understand all the parameters, and he said the problem with that. The reason their terrible investors is by the time you know everything about it. The opportunity is gone, and so I think that's it
Good reflection, what's here, but let's talk about decision making. That's what makes somebody a great leader to a great extent. You don't tell me you know and busy
you gotta make decisions, and if you're, right or wrong and increase or decrease the amount of money, you might lose your business, you might lose jobs, rather people you're responsible for yourself, Bowser,
consequences. You guys decisions you make literally our life in that decision. So how should
This approach decision making today when the north
impact of be so huge and the world.
So uncertain. How do you? How do you get yourself to make those decisions, and are you evaluate whether knots can be the best decision? Yeah, it is written
I start with talking the leaders in same understand,
decisions. You should make there's a tendency,
Jane Command of worry the levels of the organization and make a lot of decisions in reality, mode
to those can be pushed out,
and so a good senior leader identifies those things that only they can make our most appropriate. For now
You ve done that you typically giving yourself a little bit more breathing space and you push down responsibility in ownership. The people lower, then it at the level. I liked to say: ok, first
What is the decision that define it? When does it have to be made? What is the cost for
making it later, as opposed to earlier some summertime sensitive. Some left so and then say
What information do I have to have to make that decision, and it never is
which is you'd like to have what do I have to have and then the last part the people
Forget it sure the other stakeholders who ought to have a say in the decision I use
Don't touch them and they can either provide you inputs? Are they ought to get about or at least be informed
during the decision making process is
do all those kinds of things, and often I can rapidly then they
they socialized decision, as they make it didn't come tends to come out pretty well
find is more most often people is you described, wanna delay a decision after
made, and then they also often don't involved the right people involved in involved
so what happens? Is they make the decision? And then all these?
Come out of the woodwork go wait a minute that decision
it's wrong or you can understand the impact and they find implementation, but a bigger part of the process of being consulted. It becomes a different game. There were there in the game with you. You know I'm privilege at this stage my life I have grown by companies, to where I have thirty one companies. We do about five billion and sales we have.
One thousand two hundred employees in seven different industries. I used to struggle with one little organization with ten or fifteen people, and it's cuz. I had to make all the decisions. So this might my listeners know that that's changed in my life and the change went from
an operator to an owner. I went from me saying I'm the one can do it to really owning them.
And the vision and being able to connect everyone and push that information down.
that is those decisions may and seeing that change has been huge. How do you do that? From a practical perspective? I mean
you're doing that. How do you make sure that what happens when you have a culture is largest ones, that your managing yeah,
you pull yourself up. One of the first thing I have to do is that transition owner from operator. I think that's a great description.
Have to understand that you're not gonna, touch everything and don't try to, and hopefully you ve got the person.
that point in enough experience not
will react to every crisis?
every time. Something seems to go a little long. You want to launch and and get personally involved or whatever. I think that that that tends to under culture effectiveness.
You ve, gotta, be able to step back a little bit know that the seizure gonna go up and down the winds gonna blow, and you can react
that way. I think I'm at a time when commented on the way that organ
the communication approach? That was your mouse.
Leadership force those people.
Closest to the problem, to think it at a different level
Questions that were asked were unique to the organization. I think big,
The goal was to say I'm I'm sitting here, and here too the earlier one about here there,
The levers and I'm gonna pull the things that the dominant insist upon. You had to be able to think deeply about those ethic,
round level. Is you knew that his broad communication structures and the
An operation, a typical question might be, will tell us how, when what we know why you do lessons for the team. Instead
The questions that we would get were
Why should we have done something else, how's that connect to our strategy in this region? What other team
need to know about what you just learn. So not transactional questions very thoughtful questions, it
now the first time you are then environment, you step over, but eventually you'd realising its I'm, not just to be a good Clare. I need to do this and think about the broad organization, because that's what I'm gonna be questioned.
It's a network of connections where everyone is sharing, as you say, the consciously awareness of the outcome, the purpose and yet every one has got to solve the problems locally or they don't. It's all, there's no way to scale back in the world we live in today. Tell me general, you know how many people, I've toxin people that actually worked with you and I've read everything about you and many people talk about this unbelievable physical regimen, this level of the man that you put on yourself that made you seem almost superhuman to some of those people. I understand you sleep for hours and ninety Brian
I heard correctly seven hours each day. You know you just duty. One meal a day tell us a little bit about your own physical regiment and
believe that gave you more power by demonstrating your own personal control of yourself to be effective and leaders. Today,
organisations need to show that level disappoint. You don't know I'll call a grouping of that kind of thing around their employees order command respect, or is there a different approach, or is this just your personal approach? I believe, like banished him, yeah nodded again certain zones in crime
for this, and they had a legend always gets bigger. The reality was during the fight that was. I was therefore
ended period. I took command
for two years and state for five and the one command, and that was deployed.
car tat
our cycle was, I would we would fail and then go to bed write. It
a little after dawn, and I would sleep for four hours and get up and work out and then we'll start the day in and fight into the night.
The four hours was based upon our battle rhythm, we called it and it was about
the minimum asleep tat I could do in function and I don't think it was as much as I should have in fact quite sure it wasn't, but it was enough to function and it was just that
was an adaptation to requirement. I I try to sleep more now, although you don't get it.
that's a mistake. I kinda I've always tend to rise early anyway. I work out every day
and I started that many many years ago and power
that's too bad shape, as I like to be in shape a part of it, as I do think it. So it's impersonal discipline
it makes you
It makes you do something that no matter what happens in the rest of the day. I accomplished something that day
and it's a sign of so perspective as well.
It works very well in the military culture because you are expected to be in shape, but
get older and people typically would make us is for you, if you didn't
his many allowances for yourself
They cannot go ahead, the old man he pushes himself. I appreciate that
and then the one meal a day was that you know that this is something that I started back about thirty five years ago,
and to be honest, I was a lieutenant. I thought I was gone. I thought I was getting fat
and I just
maybe one meal a day in the evening, because it was easier for me: I'm not disciplined enough to eat like fire,
small me as like people seizure
instead, what I do is, I don't need all day and then, when I dinner it's a monumental affair, so you know any but better.
Works for me and it again it's one of those things. It's it's almost
foreign gratification I get up in the morning. I work out I work and then
the end of the day I look forward to
someone down eating, relaxing a little bit and
Whenever works for individuals. I think everybody's got to find their own.
personal rhythm, their personal discipline and it it
and be a good signal to the people who work with you if you ever discipline,
to be kind to people. If you ever
supply not to take short cuts, not to do what
subordinates are not allowed to do. If you had the discipline to you
dressed in the way you want them to address a word, and I use that just
whatever it is, the people who work with
it will look and they say I know that Tommy could get away with. Not do that because he's tiny robins, but he doesn't, he does this because he thinks it
poor signal and I think that's remarkably valuable in the leader because people
just ask me, when do you lead by example- and I say
every minute of every day.
there's no way. I do what I do. People see me get up and you fifty hours in a week and it's not what you do have life and death imports coming out me, but I gotta do is keep
attention which can see similar DAS in a world where Europe people of Cypriot three hour movie someone's been three million dollars. I'm gonna keep these people for fifty hours in a weekend day and night without the commander. It really is about meeting their needs, and but it's because I go first,
that many people here to see me Bible gender related up. I saw you also sceptical my arms or die this your first hour to it, but about
our twelve, when you're still up their sweat, went crazy. I swear
down little recover. Your tie, giving everyone's your soul.
Maybe I can do this myself, so I don't we
any better, with by example, solar known that everywhere, guidance in the box or the guy that will show up the guy. That will lead by example.
tell me. You went through a tough time, Roy Stone,
reporter in on travel with you for a month, and you know he reported some conversations where you question some of your superiors, including ghetto vikings and the people's perception of the president of self, and of course, you know a few days after that. I have my understanding of the present to ask you to resign, and you did got to be incredibly tough,
on that. When you learn from it, then what am? I should get someone else, because every leaders no answers to some one else. If, even if you're, the leader of the business, you answered with a clear answer to these days to employees because they really your partners- and it is tat- we all have different perspectives. I understand you're kind of recap of what happened there, like you learn from a poor from ITALY when advice you give to someone else.
in a similar situation. Sure I'll start with just a story than on Taylor, learn from it.
We were in the second tat. We were in the spring of two
We can and we were doing a lot of press because the american people support for the war. Afghanistan was it in Europe.
and so it was the term
we needed to do more about so that we could. We wicked, educate and build support,
and so I did a bunch of press in the individual that from rolling
stone. Who was a freelance
confer on stone. He imbedded with us, but it wasn't. There are monkey, was actually there about two days about three times
so there was really very limited.
Reaction with it, but it was over about a month or six week period and at the end of this we expect
I doubt whether many couldn't have been more pleasant or or more nice. At the end of it, I thought
gonna be short of a simple story about how the common good
operating, but instead what he had done ass. He collected a number of comets D heard from members of my staff and what not that that he felt represented
a locker room attitude or, and any heard banter. I'm sure.
what happened was an article came out in the Rolling Stone Magazine and Judith twenty ten and its,
created an instant firestorm because it had a young and very catchy title
and the idea was here's this general, who in many ways is hard charging, but you know
maybe is here,
team or not as respectful as they should be
I thought the story was unfair. I thought was incorrect. Depiction of my team
in war together for for many years, but but it didn't matter because what happened here
created these media event or firestorm.
Put the President United States, my boss, in its opposition, show
one request I flew back to the day after the article came out when she, the secretary
dancing and wait to see the president and went away.
The president. He asked me what happened
good conversation and I told him I read it now. I had met
and investigated, and what not, but I
Thirdly, in my resignation- and I told him
my resignation, if you want accept it, I completely understand
if you dont want accept it, want me to go back there.
So I am happy to do that. Whatever is gonna work for the war, because that's what matters and that's my responsibility as a leader to accept
responsibility, and so he accepted my resignation and we on very amicable terms in wonder now that, MR
for years. In my career song elsewhere,
the eight years into the time after which I entered west point. So
I had been my entire life. My entire b
if the White House- and I we drove back to form a mere- were my wife,
living while I was not
I understand and I went into the home like flannel like to get back in the night. I came into the home and she was standing there, not knowing what risks
happen, and I told her I said it's over you're. My career is done
she had grown up at him.
with an army officer, and then she spent at that point thirty
years married to me, almost thirty four and her life had just been
changed, and I was there the reason and you I would have expected
whose people are looking. You got screwed you gonna bad deal, unites efforts at him and she didn't you.
She just looked at me and she said good. We ve always been happy and we always will be.
an incredible, credible wife, you extraordinary? It was.
she's, never wavered from that she's, never whispered. In my ear, your archer matter
this arch of bitter, because
One of the things I learned from that moment is: you have two choices
I could either have spent the next few years. Arguing about that sad. I don't think it is fair. I think I didn't get a good deal or I could look for
but it takes a lot of energy to be better
takes a lot of time,
to look back and argue over things that you can't change
stared, I made the decision
What I was gonna do was lived my life looking forward. I was
Try to condemn myself in a way that anyone who met me
We read that article and know what happened would mean
they say well. I shot,
the thing on the story in some of the press, but the person I mean that doesn't
that doesn't seem the same and then the pit
well who for years and served with me in summer, Med, invest in love with me and then suddenly I was gone. I will
them.
to see how I behaved and say no. I was wrong. I didn't put
faith in a relationship with somebody wasn't who I thought he was. He was here.
Any will be, and so it was very interesting and I was not without
I'm away from me that decision and every day since then am I can say this was ever he's
because anyone who goes to any kind of failure of war
controversy
stage with you to some degree. But it's been wrong.
Arguably good, because you got something for you
trying to do some here now
wallowing in pity for yourself here, you're trying to make a difference in and that just.
It came as an automatic reaction, but it eternal within probably the most fortunate disease
I've ever met general. You you you
were probably even while, of course, even more and that moment in the way you ve lived a life since I think you could teach not just soldiers nagged each anyone have a lever. You know what I believe, the most important decision you can make your life and always believe. That's who you spend time with this we become. We choose to live with you just love, but I've seen since come to believe that its decision to live in a beautiful state not suffer no matter what, because when you suffer, when you be yourself up, when you feel you ve had injustice and all those things do happen. All that happens, as you said
something you can't control issues cover more and suffering to get more suffering in the people around you suffer and you made that decision to say I'm going to live in a beautiful state, I'm going to be the best me I can be,
no matter what you know, even if it rains and my brain, even if all hell breaks loose, but they all the things that we can respect about you the way you're living like today and since that time the William doubled at least to me as an individual's incredibly inspiring, and I thank you for your example.
Well, I've been lucky Johnny. I mean I've got great friends, great comrades now, and I have just been fortunate,
Chris. What would you say is the defining one of the defining qualities of this man. Who's been a commander for you in the past
How would you describe it to the public? As you have you know, you ve been the right seat to him for quite a long time. Give us give us your perspective.
Sure yeah, you know
it going back early in the service. Long run, I'm just known as it is a fact
Mentor Jimmy where respect
leader herself an amazing example. All that was heightened. Obviously, after
two thousand one. You know the current age district required a different type of leadership, and I think you know
damn was the right person at the right time, but really
under the hood so to speak. When you get inside view, what I
take away in my short of daily
you on myself, as well as a leader as your father, husbands in our parliament,
does etc. Is the sense of humility that has to grow, I think in larger scale, as you move up
the ranks of the, however, you want to look at it. The more senior you getting. This has been my biggest lesson from from where we stand for all these years.
The humility has to be larger than the environment, which is where I think most people. That's a really hard equation to keep keep.
balance occurs there. So many external or soon realised this until sitting next to us a senior
officer, and then seeing that environment there. So
forces external to what they can even see. That tells them not to act like that and its
it so easy to make a lot of little, MRS an unnatural
meanwhile in body this sense of servants, certain leadership voting is so critical, especially today. So that's been, like my biggest take away on much earlier in the process.
but you, I think, if you lose track of that early, the problem compounds itself quickly.
So it's something that whenever I doktor NATO, senior level leaders in any environment say, look at this is something you have to declare.
We monitor, as you move up guy, think we used to have got by without having the humility when people were trained into the command control model, but we live in a different age with different human beings have been trained to think and feel respond differently in a Harvard to study with cats where they put up in rooms with vertical wines and what they found was, and what other cats in one corner
lines in the Bay swap them two years into their being those rose, they couldn't see. The opposite of the brain is stimulated by the way it rose by the way it stimulates. If you see horizontal the time, that's what you're trying to save the vertical. That's all you see and I think
day. We have to see everything an embassy, everything is to enter other people's perspectives, and you can't do that if you believe you are the all know
answer who's the commander in chief of everything outside that leads me to an interesting question. I know MRS Clinton is a friend of mine, Mr Trumpets friend of mine. I know the pulse of my head for a very interesting time for me
I'm curious what advice you might get that I know you're great humble, but as a leader speaking, we had a leader not speaking to the commander in chief,
What would be your advice to President Lech Trump in terms of how to bear.
we need, and also maybe you how to best interact with military. I'm curious we're abuse a bigger. You certainly have the experience and better yeah.
I can't watch this by. I don't have any political document. What I would say that the thing that jumps out of me is.
If I were advised,
new administration or anything else. The first thing I would do is building team. You know that
tendency to look at the problems in front of you. They might be an economic problem, they might be a war, they might be russian hacking or whatever it is, and so this is a tendency to look at issue
you shouldn't say: ok how we can solve this issue? I saw that issue and it sometimes viewed as if you go out and get the right talent build. The right cabinet bring and other people
that you put time against the problem and then each of these issues
Besought, actually, don't think that right, I actually think that
You go back to the idea that drain dream team, that's always up
state tab that view, because just putting talent together doesn't equal a good outcome.
I even people with good intentions, alot of talent, doesn't equal a good outcome. Would I think they ought to be thinking.
I would tell any new administration. I would get the key leaders too.
However, and I lit a joke about the same time. I said they should go. Why would a rapid? They are they
go together and they shouldn't talk about politics, emission talk about governance, and maybe there
beer, whatever they do in the camp out at night and age,
ass build relationships so that when it
it's hard and it's gonna, get hard,
They suddenly realized. They sat across both from someone laughed and had a good time.
What a sad across a campfire sure there's some kind of sinew to the relationship. So when things pulling push,
it's not transactional. When things
that way there something to fall back on, and you know
well, that's cool by yards training or sunlight get, I would say, I think it would be better time spent. Yet
most anything else, a team that has to go undergo a tough task could do. I love that. I think that comes back to what I was asking about earlier. I mean one about wines.
The ranger promise is no matter what happens, no matter what it costs me. If you need me I'm coming and that that can only be created very often by going through difficult times together or shared experiences, it can't be created by two skill sets and that's that's what both people together and I have not had the privilege of serving my country in this way and being with men that would die for each other. But I can only imagine what that bond is really like and how that really is the glue
I would assume that makes everything work. Will it does you start with values in yourself, you have to have self respecting and have core values, but then you have to build those bonds with other.
People whose values you respect empathize with ten
yeah when you do that, exactly as you describe its then
transactional, it's it's your Billy
We stand things, and so I think that
You don't look in the modern environment. You know you have
gee that forum.
the government and pretty soon there are press reports about this person doesn't like that for sheep and whether those stories are true or there's any accuracy there like little
Fishers in the stone with water gets an freezes and starts to create cracks
and suddenly you read in the paper that somebody doesn't like you or something, and you start
the organization of the team start step to pull apart.
That's what you gotta fight against cause. It's so much harder today than it used to be in that
regard because her so much through either so many pressures. I think that that is going to be at a big gap. Requirement of this is that a magnificent time standing with the two of you, I feel so grateful.
Wanna, thank you both for your service and for the service. You also provider country, but also this service. Today, I think leadership is the most important skill and
leaders can be judged not by how their lips move, but how their feet move and the way yours is moved for three and a half decades plus says a lot about who you are and Chris beside you there on
Where's your says that as well, I just have one club on question, which is what's next
was what your mission today for the two of you and what's the plan for execution nights it thanks for asking
We got this company that we're corners of Mcchrystal Open one,
we do as we work with organizations to deal
this new environment and they could be big companies or they could small companies
and its leadership advisory because were basically helped them face a requirement where a world is in such rapid change. They're gonna have to be constantly,
helping, and yet organizations typically
riding in organizing the very quickly formed themselves into silos in different little tribes. Getting those those to work today,
and speed and constantly changing environment is something that really got his passionate and
as we worked with corporate partners, is finished,
Jordan, airily rewarding to watch them and some on the bench
extraordinary good, the passport or oppression.
Enough to know that they gotta change for a future watching me,
changes yeah
it is a really exciting space. Finnish, there's, no other environment.
European, because what were we realise, MR about dear the case hazard
I know for me transitioning out of the military that what we learned there on battlefield probably is impacting others. You know another and another violence,
is far more true than I could ever imagine at Edward
in our everyday. Obviously, the world is in this stage of just massive disruption will come out of it, but what we look
I guess organizations and how we have to act as leaders is going to be significantly different were already in the transition. So much
dead centre in that it's a lot of sulphur.
inside of organizations have access to you, and I want to recommend team of teams to anyone who is listening in one final question, I know merely wanted to ask if I can get on crystal. It's been a delay hearing from you and getting to know you Athens, working alongside twentieth. Given me a protein interesting perspective to see men when you
human beings are tasked with giving advice with leading other human beings, they sure
commander alive scrutiny the decision everywhere that comes out there now and so too happy here from you and have you got for me
a guy's name here on the news to the essence of a man to cure your principles. To hear your bones to experience, Europe is all that in talk about is, I just think is one of the most
What gives that you can give another human being to get to know each other, and I just I want to ask you what you hope your legacy would be
military as a man. What you're hoping to learn all the things that have been written in town
stories in glory days. It was quite all these things that we can fight about got there. What are you hope is the essence of the still from you the main work today yeah. You know that is a very topical one
you don't you think, legacies, yet your wife,
a battle or someone, that's not really important to me. The campaigns were.
The legacy I really hope Lass is.
Who served alongside me. Ah, if, if ass, I will hold the
would say he was somebody I trusted. He did
as well as he could and then
We would see some glimmer
the relationship, we had the values we share, not only in them but in the generation. After them as they pass it on, and people might be doing things that we did,
and building relationships, not knowing that. That's him.
We did it where it came from, but because they think it's the right thing to do. That would be a pretty you protein crops.
the legacy? I I don't kill myself than did the job,
but if you
do that? I think you are you, make a difference.
certainly have general gel Swartz gap was a friend of mine or past, and they ve been very few individuals than my life that I get that level of respect for because they didn't commanded by demand. They,
delivered so much valued human beings into their, so the culture into their country and you're. Certainly, one of those increase want to thank you for partner in this process, and I hope to have the privilege of that meeting you in person against
I enjoyed brief time. We had on the today show together and look for a time in the future with you as well. Well,
was our honour and I really want to thank yet thanks tonic. Thank you guys.
The twenty weapons podcast is directed and hosted by Tony Robins and Mary Bucket carries,
is our executive producer strategy and distribution,
by any Org and Tyler Culbertson Jimmy Curve, a hollow and
Transcript generated on 2020-10-10.