Police shootings. Border protests. White nationalist rallies. There’s no denying that we live in a time of racial divide that only seems to be growing. And while it’s easy to direct our focus to these great chasms that separate us, this is actually when it becomes even more imperative to start focusing on what unites us.
In this episode of the Tony Robbins Podcast, Tony is sitting down with Pastor Miles McPherson of the Rock Church in San Diego, who leads tens of thousands of diverse individuals in sermon every month. He’s also a former NFL football player, motivational speaker, and he has recently authored The Third Option: Hope for a Racially Divided Nation. Pastor Miles brings a refreshingly different perspective to the discussion around race and race relations, asking the tough questions about how we ended up in this state of tension and turmoil, and what we can do on a psychological and practical level, so that we can initiate real change.
Where does racism come from? Are we all biased in some capacity? How do we expose racial divides, and most importantly, how do we move beyond them? These are just some of the questions that Tony and Pastor Miles have a tough, honest conversation about so that we can all find a way to be part of the solution. Because perhaps it’s time for us to all take a step back, stop focusing on what separates us, and star focusing on what we have in common, so that we can all work together to build a more united world.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hi, it's tony Robins here for another podcast everyone, I'm really excited about the session. Does the man I'm gonna urge Russia? To is gentlemen, I'm known for GOSH and think about fifteen sixteen years? In fact, my son went to it
search starting about eighteen years ago called the Rock churchyard Santiago. Just where we are just attended the service,
the real reason I wanted to meet his because he's also the author of the third option, hope for racially divided nation
Man is liberty. We're going to talk about today, and I don't think
any of us neatly coaching to understand where we are today as a society where we
To be magnifying our differences, instead of connecting on the areas really matter together and
you know, there's so much pain out there and always has been
haven't seen many people talking about solutions, I'm hoping that maybe there's a voice of reason here with a beautiful heart,
we touch your heart today and not that you are necessarily someone who's experiencing racism or have ever
maybe said or done something you didn't mean to that offended someone, but I think today we can maybe look at it with
judgment and really a deeper understanding of what's really behind it, because the issues huge if you're after me,
in this country are three times more likely to have a car search when you pulled over here in Europe, we have a white
audience, that's supposed not racist them anyway, just unkind
conditionally affects us all. What do we know it or not? And thirteen percent of the time that if it's in Africa
miracle they're gonna thirteen percent longer sentenced to give you an idea so miles, Macpherson brother, so good that it has also to live a Eurostat subscribing your book. I have some questions. Are you so my scribble had pages and pages, and so I was going to your service flying in here. I couldn't stand the audio to make a dunce. I've gotta have had to dictate them all, but I like this
You got a unique background. People
don't know your history you're starting out. We really want to be a great athlete and came one didn't they go to Ramsey the other kind of termination give up. So you made it here, the San Diego chargers and for four years
start before we talk about racism, not a little bit about your history into our audience about how you
and to connect with the Lord, how you came to be running this amazing church which, by the way, how many people ten church each
try twenty thousand over months periods. That's incredible and its diverse Ursula is like United Nations. Really, if we go back to my family, I have two black grandfathers: white grandmother had Chinese, their passports have chinese and black grandmother from Jamaica West Indies, and my I grew up in a black neighbourhood with school. Why neighbourhood
and because I'm next and have this nice round Kabul color. You know that I got her ass in the white Paper cause. I was a black and white arrests and blackmail book other wasn't black enough.
Another call, you waited for exactly that reason. I was caught him but book between both worlds. My grandmother was, she was a kid. She was sent to Jamaica, Queens from Jamaica West Indies, so she went very black
she meets obliged to make an entire maker and
debating and get married in, my grandfather would go to her house. They wouldn't let him in the front door. He had to go to bed
So when she married him, they cut off and even though they we live in
now and they live right, Guines fifty minutes away. We never knew they existed, never met them,
and and it wasn't it was never say boy did you know one thousand adult
It was never spoken when I was a kid but be in bed
in a mixed family, we all got along. Grandma was only white person in a family, everybody else's brow
but she was a grandma. Does we have what she was light like this Roma, some hours and problem, and so an implant sports? You? All sports teams were diverse and it s five.
One place. People learn to get along as you have a common enemy in the common goal, and so on.
Customize teams that were white black we all got along. But when I went to school first, a great white school, I got harassed and I came back and in both those neighbours where growth was black, aware what schools white they would talk about each other because they know each other and I would say those people, those people ass. I know you do
then that's how they are, and so I was always caught in the middle dealing with both sides. Trotter reconciled differences and it was in a sixty, so there was also racial injustice and in the Sixtys and Seventys, but then grown up. I got saving and started ass. I play football. Universally Newhaven got drafted to LOS Angeles. This De Los Angeles ran at the time in nineteen. Eighty two got cut came in play for the sending of charges, which now they lay charges for four years, and my first he is, I was doing cocaine little wild and in these guys, share the gas with me on the plane. Tell me you love me and I
my life, oh Jesus, stop doing cocaine and one day I said, ok got. What do you want me to do how many years ago that there was nineteen eighty four legs of early for years, and I start cocaine and one day I'm done again and wish to start by reminding the house would kiss my neighborhood had nine nationalities at a time when I grow up, I want to have a school, but once I got us calves Kool aid greatest, not known church. I wasn't a church guy and I had no nationalism. My house, I don't understand what normal church was: Meda, normal church, ninety seven percent of churches, a segregated all y, all back all spending we had nine nationalism miles and miles. I became a use, pastor and editor
thousand started the rock and it's been diverse since day one. It's it's been a beautiful pattern and what I love sing out. There is the diverse yet a reflection of Santiago, where I went. What are the percentages of that area
almost identical joining as it is almost identical influx day. We did the survey with forty percent. Why and fifty
the centre by US areas, both Asia, the black to other hispanic, but we
look. It s just like and is so much interracial relationships that you have mixtures of everything so is system, is just a beautiful mosaic of the king,
a long way from when your grandmother was live on stuff was almost illegal. Going along it didn't marry twice was illegal, it was illegal and certain states to let it get married once they get very closely wildly.
Let's get into the core of it? You wrote this book
why. Why did you write this book today, because I look at the world today and the reason I want to sit down with you, the anchor thy love and respect you. I thought you brought a perspective because you ve lived. As you know, we ve its head
both sides of the tables and speak anonymously inside the table that some people like the frame it but
look around today and racism is still there, but it's also use condoms a weapon in some cases and when I love was yet a different way of looking at things. I was told people if you take something I even guns,
We forget that everybody wants the same thing, that women have a different answer for it, but somebody,
because you have begun to protect your children and families. Some people think you should not have guns proactive, but now in a world where the other side is evil, we don't talk to each other, even in Congress. It used to be guys that fight like
during the day and they got a beer together at night and it I've conversation and they get to some place, but it seems now. If you even talk to someone who has a different point of view,
evil in your tabled by that as well, and yet we
I want the same things went to children's. If we want our places worships. If we want to have a corner restaurants, if you say so,
guns you just one example right so tell me what you see. How do we get here? What's brought us to this point, and what do you see as a solution? But in every race conversation it's about us verse than those to ashes, and whether your culture teaches that television teach you gotta pick assign you feel like you're to pick a sign of able feel trap because they feel I will. If I go on the site, it hath begins those people over those people are we to later. The third option, which is the book, is that we honour what we have in common people have more in common than they haven't differences. I mean both you and I
when I found we want to be a loved one, pursue of dreams, goals will be successful. Life understand when I give saw. We have the same, be an ape ethnically diverse able didn't. I mean I've been neither sense, identical right, reunite opposite nine point: five,
medical, even though your allow bigoted thine eye, vavasor, identical and even by your white was still don't ever set ups and, more importantly, were made in the image of God same God. That's a hundred per cent identical, so we we have more in common than we have different, but the cloud of racism pushes us away from each other in great fear and anger and bitterness, toys, people in there we can. We can't see out our where we have a common. We focused on our differences if we can honour which means put a prices value on what we have in common and focus on the area will come.
We were in football team. People came all over the country; they are nothing culturally and common, some people, but also for the uniform on salmon. My last words,
it is rather Longo, one enemy enemy is not the skin. Is this
years ago made out of it and we
on goal wasn't like if he's back, I'm not until the football tone then about it. Was that about that and if weakened as a culture of focus on the things we all want and in the things that we all how we all the similar that's the third option, and so I wrote a book to give people tools to quit people to help them understand. How is it that I may be? Don't you? I was looking at our differences and not what we have
and how can I begin to express on towards you define racism forest because you look in the dictionary traces in talks about judging prejudging someone prejudices, prejudging MRI.
Usually have tied to eradicate superiority and types of someone, and I, like you, know you'd. You talked about that in your book. I'm paraphrasing up a really touch.
That is really we begin. When we no longer honour our cells, we no longer love our selves and no longer love others. When we forget what the plan is, what life really about
when we start to destroy us as we like races to ourselves. How
define racism, and is it possible for someone to offend someone without meaning to unhappy raises racist in today's world that doesn't seem to be so and and if someone did do that, can they be healed? What would be
definition of racism and what are the movie? What's the move towards solution? I love. If you talk a little bit about how we group ourselves
the Epp group and the group I think that was really useful nearby. Yet
First, I would say, and when people have come to the subject that allow times they push back because they feel like, if I
admit to be racially offensive,
also admitting to being a races and saw a front? We need
establish that you can be racially offensive and not be erased. Some say that another time, because it is very important, I can
and someone racially and not meaning,
not even know I did it, it doesn't make me a racist now. You may say, though, that it doesn't make any racist. Now, of course the people were raised.
Course their intent is to try to harm somebody. Caressed drawing them are lower than over their status, it whatever their origin,
put him down to establish their superior. I simply because of their ethnicity is only one racing race, but also racism, purely as I am better than you because of my ethnicity,
now the three causes institutional racism systems than this
personally mediator, where just me and you I,
buys you, I resent you and then there's gonna to yourself internalize racing where I've been told all my life that I'm a fairy I'm inferior and culture tells me I'm in fear. Culture too, and I believe, but people first have to accept that they can be racy offensive and not be races
if they're not, but they have to accept that they can be racy offensive before they can learn, because in the thousands of conversations I've had when people can accept, they can separate those two things
They will not accept that their offensive, because if they do,
their accepting their races and therefore they,
never accepted, aiming they say offensive. Therefore the conversation ever happens. That is a big frustration
where people of color would try to have a conversation, but people can say ok
maybe there's something I can learn. Maybe I have a blind spot
a blind spots and work is well travellers. Fine, six, that these things- I don't know
about how I view myself now I've? U others
because we are made the image of God. I was created to love you. Yes,
created to see God
a new one
don't see God and you when I lower you and
human eyes. You I am
below my my goddamn design,
that's really on me
social scientists has helped us to understand this. How do we? What is it about the human mind, only gets human spirit, but the mind
That makes us want to be with people we think are like us and how does that affect the way? We look at things that might be creating a blind spot, that we don't notice of death and associations is called grouping, so we're all in gross men are group
passes, our rogue say: excess system passes our group, have we
These are good at this ban, these groups. At your end, even your position saw and where you'd, when you identify good
the people who you have a lot in common with a new acknowledge. What do you have a common? So you feel more comfortable them. Your mom
patient with them, you more graces gracious
You have more positive assumptions about people in your group, but
it is true, but the people, not your group, you have less positive assumptions, your less patients you're.
Ass, graces and and if the group
happens to be at this sitting,
and you are less gracious towards people who are not yet at the group that comes off as racism. However, if we could all stepped back and acknowledge that
groups that were in that have nothing to race and how we give
it is up to the groups were in and just apply that race applies agenda. Here is an example of a gift of
an example of that I walk into a room and there's a bunch of passes in the room and there are and where a beggar church rights are working,
so there's a group of passes, are big churches and the Gruber passes, who have smelters with a group of past.
Is that how big churches have more in common with me? So I
walk over to them and the group
of passes of small churches may feel stopped.
Those guys not about the impact they just. You relate to them, because you're gonna use solving some of the same problems trying to serve at such a large.
People in a short period of time and exact. You may talk the pastor. He has no one, no one on staff, so here
haven't age Ordereth. Does he know what the age are you going to see you pass in or lots I'll talk to people in business, and when I tell him we have turned it staff they also go. Oh, we have
I understand the birds you back if you have towards the right because they have towards the staff, and so now the we'll be perceived by some people's going like if a rubber.
Like this no problem, but if you ve got a bunch of sores, there could touch with a cat here and you're going to react. That's not just you! It's a lifestyle of life experiences, so you know about intent.
In this case, if Mccall Racist, just because you're an arrogant sight of the fact that working here, just trying to relate in somewhat about away, could have been arrogance but
You're, not! Maybe it's just hey that. Sometimes it is racism. Maybe I want to go learn from some other passing capacity. So we do that.
All the time we gravitate two people were more comfortable with the.
Were around, but the people who are in that group who may want to be an ever. They want to learn from their group. Yes, they might feel they were. They were stub. Sometimes this and I know sometimes I thought people would mean twas, because a razor may not enough and they do it. They may be. They had a bad day so, but that, given that that creates a blind,
which is me be unaware of something I'm blind aren't even know. When I don't know,
and one of the ways to finally implies spots is to ask and saw a few Adam
and he was black hispanic wider whatever's Asia is anything I
or say than is racially offensive and I dont know and man that would break down so many walls with people, because those conversations are very rarely had what's also most brutal talk about a subject, their frayed it'll a blow up their scare, but being scared is not a reason not to have these diverse issues right and- and I think the other part about is when people get into this conversation, it there's so much uncertainty yet for people who don't know where to go. So how do you help people find those points? Botz besides ask:
there's some, otherwise it usually. You talked in a book about a woman who is a good friend of yours, a white woman, and she was saying to you when you just get over this share. What you re, one of the and I've been told that many many times just get over and- and I challenge six- why people took until this person to go someplace where they will be the only white person, because we are talking about being in a culture.
That is right handed, and we could talk about that. That's good example. We re in the middle.
But added rang out without elevated and a culture, a culture before I handed people, yes, and so am I?
rip right now to prevent your desk in schools, my hand, but I'm left handed, I couldn't per mile boy desk
I want to get golf clubs that are left hand, that I've got a three extra stores and write him. If I were a catches me try to get a left handed left meant for literally
you have to go now. You got Amazon, but where we re at Amazon was, as you know, in jungle rights, so but people who
handed, don't understand the advantage of being right handed because it's how culture was made and are not an end. The right hand of people are not bad people
This is like because some of the color of background or religion or whether the case me doesn't make about it, but they have some advantages in some cultures enshrined in our citizens. It is posted about that. She's ok get over it. I say: will you go someplace where you can be the only left handed first
and when you around, when you're in your outgrew
Will you not around people who are like you ethically
the only one, you start to think things
different than we around their word. Who looks like you, because
you could just sense that I'm not gonna get the benefits. I may not get the benefit of the doubt that I would. If nobody was like me, I may not get the Grayson.
Patience- and I may not have positive assumptions made about me as if I would, if I was around people who would like me, yeah that's what a lot of people called liver.
Yeah. It's always really a chance to come to understand what she didn't understand. What people don't understand an and one of them,
I ask you so that whenever the I'm not gonna do it, he wouldn't go someplace where he was my present, anything
and I had him right down what why any wrote two paragraphs in the booking talk about. I would even go to a black church. I would feel uncomfortable. It ended the same thing about that is the the perception that means about what he thinks about that environment, about black believers- Christian,
those really set and he's a Christian, and so when you have when
you can realise that my believe, then you could stop and say, may maybe I realise the the fear, the biased, whatever you want to call it. You know that the thing about this book that I want to make clear is that it's not about not being a racist and about how to be honouring. Yes, you know, because a lot of time people feel like I have to admit, Amr Racism, a bad person
in order for me to get better well, if you just start honouring, then it takes care of itself, and if I could see you and say you don't I used to have assumptions about some
we like you- and maybe I used a sad and see your color, which is another we could talk about. I'm just gonna stop honor you Mamma
to know you, and I want to listen to your story here
then a lot of that negatively goes away. I think we should mention that too, because you mentioned the really important you talk to him about Kyoto. Target
privately to say you don't see, color is just not true
and so its people trying to say I look. I hold you equal. I hold you as a friend or held you whatever, but did not say that its offensive, because it makes people believe
What makes him believe it? I can't possibly
this animal that you gone through. What makes somebody
ended in matter, because many people don't like people, for example, dont understand their rights when you were your color carries a burden, yes with it, and it has a different experience with them about twenty five or twenty seven is only when the first time I heard someone say
that to me- and I didn't I sat on it- meant that in sea, blue, yellow red and Alzheimer's,
This must not you'll see Blu ray we're already had ever these
No, no, I don't you call, and I and I would like to add that I didn't know that men can. I knew not what they I knew. That was real sounds like an hour. You did you make
like you, I wanna be means that ought to be made, but it, but what it does is it eliminates everything that came along with the scholar, good bad, an indifferent here, above all positive and negative
and then that's insulting versus saying. No, I see you and I honour place value on how got major, because God may this gun at MIT,
Color is well it in our culture. We say white people and people of color. Those are two options. The third option is that were all color. Are you going to end in the Webster's dictionary all the way to the back by the w's
This is why is a color give an example from San Jose? You show that those by about Red Fox was rather than a store in the show, in the wake up in a black cowboys gain to his house in the wake up its own. Mr Severin was the perpetrator. Colored,
yeah? It was called why it's all profile, because we don't say that in any country where further in another episode, we talk about why people when I get a barrister, turn right
the gap call they get blue in the face, and I call us but but everybody's got color in and when you get a tan.
Much of our right of most wife wants you to be around. This is the wrong with our culture that we don't value. I don't exist about filling value, the TAN in Hawaii from life, but you don't value the town in the womb that you give them all, but it's his things at God made all that in an God, made the ability for our skin to change all of our skin and for all of us get a town. We will have the ability to get dark from the sun and that's the beauty of God's creation, and we just want to dump it down down down down down, let's, let's honorary in and
and and celebrate, and also, I think of you- can't honour something. It don't appreciate or you don't even written answer. I'm hoping, I think in the audience, people we have a lot of
pull up there than are hung.
Their hungry to grow the hungry, to give the hungry to step their game up the hungry too connected a deeper level to everyone that they possibly can, and I hope, will take you up on your office. I was told people a belief, is a poor substitute for an experience, and so I can't possibly know what, if
to be african American, but I can get a little blue feeling if I step in your shoes and who is to be issues experiential access to my hat, and so
I felt those experts. I have sent experts you growing up in sports, Agrippina, poor communal,
that was very integrated, because that's just the way it was, but in sport,
There is not even a single thought about this, but I can remember I had an experience. I worked with Turkey Williams, I remember had a crypts and he got blocked up
and you have here- is a man who came from a really tough environmental learn to use unbelievable force and intensity to basically be able to survive, built the crypts got thrown in jail,
and I spent a lot of time because I saw a film on his life and it struck me. This woman came into
story. I M issued in one or send to be like him, and so she was an attack moanings you over him. Ask me any questions about who I really am and when he came in and when he took over the place
but after three or four years he was reading and feeding is mine and key changed in transforming here was the first person to get crimson blood's together through a videotape and say we're gonna end this war,
He read all these are articles, he actual nominally three times or Nobel Prize, and I was trying to save his life because sorts neighbours the governor, then so, do I I spend time with him and thought we commenced the gun.
I gave you a hundred thousand named per thousand emails from principles and people say
we're, not saying let him loose. Do you think he did this? Just let him live a life because he's doing good work and, unfortunately,
same stereotypes are hard on crime or not harder and grow and settle. The governor said to me: you're gonna still want you live in some doubt.
Let me guess they want me to come to your house and use your hot pools and each rice grave and I find many sees free and they killed him, but he asked me to speak as funeral, and so I went down into the middle the crimson gloves I was the only one person
in this place there are more police officers than you could ever dream up down this I try to keep the single breakin out. I follows Louis work on this
they looked at me and the other way presumes my wife of the top there and she was a little concerned as I thought, those guns, but I spoke the unspoken. So I suppose you pay wondering why this freakin white man
Turkey, the man who just passed away is not the Manchester.
Turkey, the man who just passed away, is not the man started as
And he wanted me to share with you the color isn't what matters is the sole right? That's what we're here to give up.
You do, but I do remember him emits about work and how they're gone. Oh, my god, I gotta get out of this lady alive and I never have thought before made me stop and just think about exactly what you said like. What's it white like fore and aft american person
walk in this all white a have ass most of their life, so how the honor,
is the secret and not have
was a christian name may not all relate to that exact formula, but tell me how to
really turned the corner and world where so much is focused on the problem on the solution. What do you think is the best way to move people forward
I think one way is to
ray label people
When I see you you're, not even
I see that your white, yes you're, not the white man,
You are not always able to say that I have to re. I had to relay. We use my brother, my son,
the greatest command, which I think thereby were real, I would understand the golden rules, the same things, as is the love your neighbors yourself, a treaty by you, wanna, be treated so the
your neighbours as as yourself
If I relabel you as something less than neighbour and dehumanize, you out only the love you
We look on the news and we see the the athlete. That's a sport,
if the label the athlete protest in this boy, black athlete or the immigrant or other?
the White supremacist, a new label them something that the humanizes them you give your.
Permission to hate them, you give yourself,
mission to marginalize am I remember, I was watching the cowboys
It's a little kid and always want to learn about the Indians cause. They didn't have saddles.
Don't cry like me. Villa girls had long black hair, like Obama, but they were, but they were savages. They wore people
and so, when you re label people, you give yourself a mission to allow them to be mistreated, certainly less than you would set for years
and so we want around. Just looked on television. Listen, you! May the people come across a border
There's a lot of politics. There is a lot of complications, immigration. I get all that. However, we have to start with that, their human we can start with their less,
because that's what they they are there and made the image of God is the same as they as I was other terms that are given
but a separate them to make them less than right that some and justified,
killing animals justify being mistreated itself. We can start with
human eyes on people and and and giving them the next
We can have a race consultation when we wish
In other words, when I'm talking to you, I know I'm talking to white men, your wife,
see them. I got gamey eyes and a brain process, information and visual there's our bed
I turn them into a bad thing, that's on me, but
I need to allow you to disclose to be who you are a site like that began to cry
right, you saw him and you allowed him to disclose to you his genius right an end here.
His story and you able to filter his experience,
at his intelligence and put it
ok now I see why he did that, but he has the potential to do that and who use today too, because I think we're happens today, as we walk people in a moment of time as a tool.
Therefore control power. No one has a corner mocker racism
rights are we all do or some other is on its way, and so, if you allow people to sell disclose, if I, if I approach you and say there is some
ingenious in it. We don't even know who you are or there's somethin. Indeed,
of icy someone at the airport. I thought all this guy for the airport now that he is a people in an hour, and I know that every single person there's somethin ingenious, and I want to note that it is time you story european. What are you doing? You tell me about your family and there's a gem there. Now, if you want
thought you discover something amazing. We have you workin, for if you look for, you have to look for, and you have to give them, but if you're looking for what's wrong, what's wrong is always about vessels. What's right, yeah yeah,
I'll have a social narrative. The social narrative is a story that yes, the story that shapes how you see the world, it's what your parents told you
behind your friends and your social narrative created the the prescription of the glasses through which you see everything
you're one of six seven billion people, so you have one six billionth of the troops of prospective my brothers. I have two brothers. We slept in the same room, growin up. We have different
scenario. We have same parent same how same street same for insane school at the same time, but yet we had little different experience because with different people, and so all of our social narratives has a perspective in that perspective. Has blind spots because its limited, and so we have to allow us to allow the people to disclose to us who they really are verses us imposing on them.
Our assumptions and not Lehtinen discos gonna become self fulfilling. You know when I do seminars with people very huge group out other websites with in Britain for two seconds I'll say
I want you all agree in Romania to test undersea everything. Is his brown brown clothing brown people from things round anything look for it. Ok close your eyes.
Tell me: will you just saw that was red?
I'll get over moment. Then I say open your eyes. Looked around for red. Ok, how many found more read this time? Nobody did. How come you get what you look for
seeking she's, fine, Riah rice
you're thinking just a point, even if it's not there, how many saw burgundy called it registry can count more numbers every laughs and raise their hands. So it's like we get what we look for. So
narrative, is so crucial
and that merited this. It really being directed very much by
individuals who are looking for a place of connection is more from a place of separation at this late. So, but
there are people that have grown up with the most
insane injustices they ve grown up with
racism, whether beheld the sergeant s door. There be racism, whether it be classed distinctions
he's gonna find out whether its body morph situations, somebody's bigger, physically or have you
the case of beer. Buddy looks at a certain acts, I'd everybody, but enough it that's what they believe that becomes the narrative and yet then there's the opera
There's the Quincy Jones is eighty five years always worked with everybody on earth white black purple. Every between you know you look.
J C or you could be on, say there. Let their just royalty in our country and our world now are
look around there's one stage when the graves golfer in the world was black and events wrapper, kindly ask em. So it's like
Even though the story is there there are. These people would seem to be able to break out of it. What do they have? Different
Is it do they develop a story that says I don't care what the environment does I'm going to create life on my terms and add value and change? What what is it?
You perceive that they have that, allow them to break out of all the citizens and all the limitations, but are legitimately there, but didn't stop them. Why? I think everyone? The stories is different. Yes, and, as you know, anyone anybody success was put in time and at work, and there are a lot of people with the stars align and things happen in so for each one of those people. I couldn't tell you, however, I would say this: every man is made an image of God. Every man has a capacity for way more than we can ask or imagine, and certain people just happened to be able to tap into the greatness of God is putting them in the village and in and they
the gifts, they're, calling the talent and drive it may just won't. Take no for an answer. I say something trying to serve more than themselves.
It's an athlete is trying to certain they build something more than himself. It feels like to me. I don't know what you're experiences if it's the same, it's, like God, moves to those in charge
you're more than just themselves languages to serve their sentence. We get a certain amount of insight. I think it's life supports life. Well, part of life stress support your family
get a different one site, you transport, a giant community,
You? Do you gotta developments? I turn us do some of the world
there are nobody knows it or not. You know what
I ain't, gonna different level, then site. So it's like
where's, your insights come from most. Where have you got me, a site that allows you to navigate through all these challenges to a place where people to serve some animal? What before, when I was led up to the age of twenty four hours them for me for ball was my God didn't. I was my God and then, when these guys shared the gas with me, Jesus die from my centre, Rosemont, that and not that I was going to join a religion, but that I was gonna have a relation with God because God made us in his image. So we can have a relationship and in a context of that relationship with the spirit of our living in May, that God can actually expressed himself through me. So much differ
then religion, where I got to go check the box and my the boxes. I check are better than the boxes that you check the gossip about checking the box, I'm about a relationship. So at the age of twenty four, when I gave my life to Jesus Christ, I stop doing cocaine in one day April, 12th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four stop smoking weed that day. My girlfriend I go,
together. That day, is your wife today she's my wife? How, many years later there are thirty, four years
Could you not? A member has actually large and re whenever third employers, Berlin and we met thirty eight years ago we met, and I see nothing, eighty, but but what was gone. I said the guy got. I can't do this for me anymore. I had to do it for you and so in the Spirit of Gaza speaking to me and then when this book came out even even for years whenever there was an incident in an in the country that was very racial like when OJ was acquitted and all the while people are man all Bucky was set at me happy and I saw the edges broke, my heart, the division. I remembered that weekend I spoke at the church. I was that I cried after was over. It was just so heart: breaking the sea
have divided. We were, but has really culture right, it's not commodity. It's it's! What we ve been, you don't grow up being able to you. Don't you come into the world being raised this right? You learn you. You learn from the pain of your family, Remo Soldier narrative.
Everybody watch you sat around your table and you listened to your Paris. Your grandparents tell their story, you listen to your friends, tell the story- and you took this fact now. My family had stories. That was fact. It just wasn't the whole story, but it was that and so it that's all. You know it's a year. We grow up here in the same perpetuated stories
Of our families and the pain perspective of families and when you're in our in group, the people that are like you, you give people a different set of characteristics and qualities
and when they are outside the group, its magnified the payments made about there might be
problems within the UN group. Even right for people. Look at him he's like even couples are you wrote about this actually remember correctly relationship, you see people and the ones you get divorced, the ones always that say I gave my all. I gave them ever they give some try to what they gave and they don't see that evidence given back to them right. That's why they end up divorce will recover like
experiencing down at a cultural, my right now, because we're forgetting the gifts that we are giving each other at least capable giving right and that that example is that the marriage was a contract, not a covenant. So if I make a covenant with you, I am
Turning to your period, to my loving it, no matter what an area that I would like a contract, you do this I'll. Do this mosey be the better the idea you negotiate right, and so most marriages are contracts than our covenants, and so we have clear distinction. We don't how covenants where people might cover which our love eulogy, curse, Monet, Mama, I'm alone, you that's really. Love is so. How do you good people
the point where they make the distinction of that, because you know, like a relationship, that's transactional doesn't feel very good to anybody
side where the relationship is based purely on love and its unconditional of its monographs experience life. I'm privates have that. I know you are as well. How do you get people to point of covenant nor mindset as opposed to contract? For me, I had to get my mind set off me. God got into my life and gossip I made
covenant with you, because you have nothing to off with his eye over the Gaza God we're gonna make it here he's. I know your sentence was essentially I you know. There's
god you're wondering I can do is make a learned from so Gaza. I, my my son died,
here he did that we we pay the whole price you to do anything. So I want you to be received by love. Thy ok got, and so once I realise how much God love me unconditionally, because I didn't deserve it, don't deserve it he's now. I want you to do that, and so, if I've I, if I
learn how to unconditionally lover.
People about await them.
I love people who don't love me the more my Jesus, and so that's that's, that's the if
in the purest, since I have to learn unconditional loved and who have
watching you. You can't love and treat people right because they do to that's that's contract
you have to decide. I am going to be the beginning and the end of the great the grace in this conversation
no matter what happens graces undeserved. If what you want, you have to deserve it, it's not grace anymore. It's not really love you tell me of. It is easy to talk about. These things
softly, but when there is their respective miles this year, you live the stuff. You want your talk and I know there is an experience here in San Diego, whether as an emigrant man whose, from after another crack you learned
and he was shot by the police and so now you're dealing with an issue where the culture says pick aside and you were brought in as amongst a group of people and others aren't situation, but what I loved was top able to support.
On top of the five years his brother s back, suppose it so
happened on a Tuesday. It was a mother to say, because we had our passes beating on Wednesday happened on the monitor.
They and the video came out of the police officer shewn this, our african immigrant, here in town which, by the way
the video cleared up, but whenever people believe that this unanimity is still don't, I'm all everyone saw the where they want to see it in, and so I went to
play station that night and what a video came out and we talk of the chief rather one sided taught her to protest. Someone outside its author
he went outside and we want with about Santa next to him and while he
reading his statement there about on a pro,
has it that was at ninety really couldn't see a lot of people who are lights and someone curse me.
Though they say, first a journey that legally blank the church rupture childlike. My hedges jumped up like while we didn't how we get this, then I said Legatee by pass them off and it really bother me and they
and so I was too that we went to. I went to staff meaning the next day and in our staff we are black white hispanic asian middle.
All these different, Agnes Pastoral. Yes, thirty passes in a room
so we got a discussion as it look. We got we'll talk,
but this is, I address, addressed Sunday
could easily say this pray for the city, but
we just gotta go into global, so we
a discussion on thinking that have where we were divided in that role, because it was an ex cop in that room there was a past of his brother was Workin Swat in the protest that weak.
And then they were african american guys who gotta tell their kids how to respond with a cop sobs. So we all have in this discussion in our past doorstep
so that Sunday I got us in euros in all these different points of view. We are going to be much your t write adopting in these only thirty,
Have you had your thousands riots and so God gaming?
this vision of this table with vice chairs and one share represent the police officer.
Once you are representing the people who thought the shooting was justified, which some did and the rope
other chair represented the people before the shooting was unjustified, and then there was another chair that represent the devil is said, you pick one of the other.
That's, will towards revenue divided us we're own paint. Comes you gonna pick aside and then the other chested have third option. There was gods to end its. How
do you in the big question that night was
so. How do you use each year? Toby without I was brilliant. Why said, I said some of you and here was a historically resign depletion and my father was a cop five. Santa
now my father arrested, comes as a car so cop to whom they were credible, difficult job, but the human once you pick aside, you by cultural standards can ever agree,
the other side so of your public, and you can agree with democratic, democratic, candidate or public, and even if they have a great idea used to be, but not more outward support.
I also so if you, if you
as someone who size with the police. You fight
of an imposition where you always have to sign with police and never look and never be able to accept that maybe sometimes a wrong. If you side against the police is the same thing and that's the problem of the culture, and so
I stood behind a police, they look, I believe most police are great servants and they do a great job and there are some who do
mistakes or Andorra Melissa, then there
people who believe that the shooting was justify its thereby match our neighbourhood iser, and you know it again.
I get it. I understand. I think that the way you provoked by the authors of the recent based on the video
Then there are some people said it wasn't just fine I'll get that is work. I sort of video myself. The problem is: what is your heart towards the people who disagree with
Africa does that's the reason I want to do this conversation, because I think, if that doesn't change,
conversation that can change anything that idea demonization you,
about away by acknowledging all the points of view. And then you end up with a final chair. The volunteers is, is that there is a third often and ass. You can love the person who disagree with you, because we all have a different perspective, his cool thing about it. We did prayer that alter the ass by the star and I'm shake a people's hands in the sky grass my hand, he pulls we towards him, and he says I was a guy yellow.
So. I asked him to come back after video, inaccurate and beating, and what have we got? You have another. I was over legal, that was in the past outta. Your bothered be bothered me that that he said the end and he came back and apologize
mom and laws? I wouldn't you say, and he said I didn't think, pass the miles care and as moves that when you talk about he's, been talk about the shootings that there are a lot of shootings in a row that time in Dallas and here and knock Louisiana and his mother say that he's been putting people's nasal pictures on screen. If you and indicates it, I wasn't there church because by that does it mean that that doesn't mean I didn't, do it it's up, but it was really gave me hope, because he heard the full picture of how to love people who don't believe what you believe and that is that doesn't make em evil doesn't make it even bigger picture to how this and he admitted that video was great. Today there is a tendency- and you see this-
scientists are describing this on. At least this dream coasts, not in the middle of a country where the people look for racism, sexism, homophobic Euro, Islam, any of any type of voluntarism.
They assume the worst in somebody were intent, doesn't matter doesnt matter within TAT? Was you feel differently about that money rather than ten does matter, doesn't run they assume their their imposing there's. This also narrative on their story distort. So if I, if I asked
why people are evil. I always leave. Although I come with this conversation, I soon that I now have to prove that about you and I'm other for any reason to justify the embryo myself, some verses, allowing you as an individual to expose disclose yourself to me now. I may been true
by a bad person that bear by present amateurs behaviour, jerking formula or there they have some person how they got things to do, but we tended jumped.
That situation. How do we balance that out? Because it is reinforced now right, you know, schooling, I have so many white supremacist formal. Why supremacy is that of my close friends? That's it
and when you use dna spikes does that's it'll be able to find out. They don't have the idea that, when they find other, they got African American and then in a significant capital chapter one of this book. Fourteen percent. Seventy percent is wiser. Promises clansmen. I think it was a forty percent black
hopes of handing over that. He denied science.
Oh of course across. But if I, if I, when I look at the people,
we're like that. Relies people change,
as is something more to this,
something in their deeper than your your hate and I'm challenge to get to that, and I'm Charles discover that if we give you the benefit of the doubt,
no, this is something they were made to. Love like I was made to love like ours may, to love unequal after that. So often when you find their histories and because I do not like you do in the world look I do. I know that you cannot influence somebody if your judging them and they may be a campaigner consistently and out at a higher level, and so very often these judgments are made, and then it becomes self fulfilling its like. You know if you're talking about
buddy and you believed that your friend and they treat a really bad one day. You doing there are racist or sexist, because you think,
You can't resolve it they're having a bad day, because you know you're a good person that identity, but if you think they're, manipulating whatever right
the first question: if these are treating you good, you like what are they want exactly satellites? We are actually control by our real experience: life for controlling the beliefs. We have about ten thousand other people. That's really what this is all about,
and ass we go back a labeling. If I label you a criminal
can no longer relate to. You was a human,
only see was a criminal and go back to parenting. If you call your pet, your kid stupid, you
the human azure, your son, your daughter, and now you
relate to them as as your child
is your son, you loved Sunday, and that same things happening, though now people putting those names on them blessings on people and making it a permanent situation. Beautiful parts about this third option is:
by honouring people by aren't by seeing the highest part them something more than agency in themselves. You give people the room for that growth and that's not just growth in terms of business or life or whatever its more growth speech about it's. It's the growth of love in their heart
change the world and its hard to do that when those labels get tighter and entire. So what you really hope comes out of the book which her, which
why did you write it with the real goal we want people
take away. My hope that people would be set free to love people who are different
in doing that. People to realise I didn't realize I had this bias on. It relies add this precious. I realize I was cut. People off
and I realize I was making these assumptions about people without demonizing people set people free to actually be we're. Gonna create them.
And actually enjoy the relationship that they are being cheated out of black people are fabulous, Latinos fabulous. Why
what I was Israel over? I go round her nice. I'm gonna write waste valuable as they really are, because God make mistakes easy. I make these good. These bad people are fabulous in them. We, but we put him
in these little labels, we stamp mediocrity autumn and we stamp inferior on them. And now we Rona relation
and we imprison ourselves group recently. Really care grows Gimme, a? U you kind of you talk about forced
that people can take. You mentioned one of them already really touch because brother as part of my my lexicon with human beings. While I have a connection, love people, a sister
what what are the four things that you talk about as practical steps that, if I'm back your home again, ok guys christian
A Christian has had many different religions working people than that religious, but I care about human beings, and I hope that I want to be partners. I wanna be part of the solution. We provide solutions are covered a lot of your ability very similar things, double one relabel everybody's, a neighbour,
Your brother was of the same day that person is equal to me, but the other. But if you say that's my brother s, my sister and remember that that man.
He's at their equal to you and I'm just saying that verbally but actually taken, then your heart, so that guides the way you think about renders and then you can filter.
Your assumptions through that no doubt label and
others and sisters. Vital time was a different points of view that get pissed off, but in the end I would say,
have a race consultation. Let people self disclose to I want to. I want to learn the greatness
and you there's something amazing about you. Look for look for! You have some of our sea people's color.
Sailor. No color gray, light see people for their use.
I want to know where you from tell me tell me your history. I want to know your ethnicity, I want to know what you've been through. Tell me about your culture,
I would say acknowledged that you were blind spot
Is that you don't know everything allow yourself, don't you
Does it mean something bad once its part, the learning process right conditions exactly you can be. We can all fail without being a failure
I'll be the loser solve
I failed and be offensive, doesn't mean I'm a failure,
if I've been racially offensive offence of defamation, erases, necessarily I gotta own. It and growth can people people
find a way to be offended
although no matter what you do, if they want to be, can they not correct? I mean anyone, hundreds of time, we're racism, they mean any, absolutely absolutely and and and that's on the receiving end that I have to give people grace and not assume that they meant to hurt me
or not assume they met the hurt me because of a reason. I think
More importantly, not assume that that's the way they always will be
the most important so often to the people that
are truly raises. Are there
people were the most aggressive, harming others were often harmed by others,
maybe I know almost anybody have ever dug in that area the most mean horrific human beings really
me that there is an enormous amount of pain? And so, unfortunately, is that your experience, those who had been her
often heard others unfortunate all, fortunately exact her people, her people and his. Then you can't pulse. We will you be innovation who trample somebody them, but you
airports whom thou, unless you feel below them right and so those people
is there anything you can pull somebody down unless you feel below them, you know,
remember, someone's judging you do or planning yourselves totally its losing the race, a typical racist guy, like waits premise, I dealt with whence his father
beating his father. He hated his life. He hated everything so coarse. He hated somewhere else and look for something like other livestock NASA thousand a prison in juvenile hall, talkative wise promises, teenager and his father father, be it's coming to an end
you see those guys in prison and now there's nothin but hate and those environments concerning an inhuman places. Well tell me about prison reform. How does this really in a prison? That's a good question. One thinks it's on the dark and I'm hoping Republicans never grants as independent will do something it's so I'm just an insane right now. What what? What do you see happening in that area when it would you hope it happened and better
two things, one, that the people who enjoys a prism form would see the prisoners as humans have an and be able to accept that the dehumanizing treatment that they receive. Is you
it's not make them any better than the people as humans,
and see them as people that that can grow into something positive
on this either the prison guys get the book.
They would also see themselves as well as how God sees them and not having been told, although I greet, although you like, an ogre bathing in it, but a third of this you believe, so what
final peace. I was touched by I think, aside in an interview anything I read in the book, you told the story of recruitment
you'll have to explain to us, because I thought I'd try to share of people and you and I will make no progress.
Grows and show that story about the heart I was really touched by rockery was eighty time all star his seventy three. Seventy four now give it take a t. Nine thousand plus had three thousand plus it's amazing baseball waiting time most are working the envy p huh
famous obviously, and he had a heart condition.
Seventy one in need a heart, transplants and kidney transplant. At the same,
I'm a terrorist capacities. Are they now then the alyosha right he's a black ketamine ass black ass, the little doktor
the panamanian and
when he seven year old, why NFL player at the same time went into a coma comrade rule in India, a bank brain anarchism and his mom ones at the hospital? He was in this common put her head on his chest and was just
You know you're gonna live under this is not the end of your life. You should listen to his heart, beat he die and you ve met right, crooked,
he met when he was eleven, he met. Rock room came all told his mom, I'm gonna, be appropriately. I met my hero.
And he had donate his organs to hear Dorias organ so sign over to be donated and Recruit S heart guinea. So his mom,
also rock roses. You have my sons and she says what would you like to come to listen to you some time, so she goes over his house. Why does to us
in short, the universal different that doesn't happen. You know
we're so genetically identical that it's not about you know you at this needs your blood type. Maybe, but you know, God bade us to be-
changeable and he said you guys are making a big deal about another beer. For example, I think gum I'm helping people
I'll, be touched by this experience and and that they'll think about
in a different way and it doesn't take a lot so is as a problem
way to spread as having this conversation, some people gotta watch. This, hopefully will pass this on to move by it
you ve got a great quick option.
Could really help spread. The word maybe change that
I'd of momentum- and I understand that you caught the third option- challenged love someone who doesn't look like you to tell us about that. Very simply too,
smiley piercing and I accept the third option- challenge to love. Somebody who doesn't look like me, and I want to love Tony Robinson and tell you I love you and what I appreciate about you is. You are so sincere and such a sincere friend. I know we don't see each other all the time, but you
Currency and thank you for coming here and talk about the book miles. You you walk. You talk
you're beautiful, saw amazing, pastor and amazing church, but I really want to recommend everybody pick up the book. The third option hope
were racially divided nation maybe radically divided on this issue must also be with
Let's go back to normal.
Podcast is directed by twenty robins and hosted by twenty Robinson Mary Bucket in New York. Is the executive producer and steps in as occasional host digital editing by Jean carve a home and Adrian dilatory copyright, Robins research, international,
Transcript generated on 2020-04-04.