Mary redeemed a fifty thousand dollar cash prize playing, chuppah casino. They have only playing for fun. So winning this was a dream come true. Jumbo casino is america's number one social casino experience. It's serious fun with over eighty casino style games to choose from you, too could win life. Changing amounts of caffeine, like merrick log, on to jamaica, casino, dot com and give them a world. That's chump, casino, dot, com, no purchase necessary void where prohibited by law, eighteen plus terms and conditions apply, see website for details. The voice of the preceding commercial was not the actual voice of a winner to be not racist is a disgusting form of racist violence. So you've got these anti racist activists urging people to be racist in order to not be racist, it makes no sense if you the fine words and then deny that you were redefining the words you effectively enough gaslight in the world. What is a woman is not got your question. We all know the difference, but were expected to proclaim that we don't, and there is no difference.

if you can't sit there and tell me what a woman is, then I don't trust you and anything else. But if you say when everyone knows, you open itself up to accusation and you can be the next to be condemned, we can't vote these people out. You can vote in a labour government. A tory government is still going to get the woke if the machinery of government is grinding in that direction. There is nothing you can do when of school. bought a county school board not only removes the books in the shelves but burns call it a flame purification, and they, see what the implication overall, I dont believe, could have done, that if they could see with anything

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today we are delighted to save returning for the seventy third time eyes: berlin friend andrew doll, whose of course, comedian satirist, tv presented and the author of his latest book, which is called the new puritans. How the religion of social justice can should the western world and you're welcome back. Thank you hung about is great to have you on how you I'm all right! I'm here I have been on along the but when I seventy third is an exaggeration, exaggeration psyche. Seventy nine here, because I was on the second the one you data you were, I mean you know why you confess to us. Yes, that you we're very sceptical about an you. Nearly didn't come on the show, in fact you dedicated in this book. You talked about how that brief moment of trust that you showed yes resulted in africa. what exactly I'd never met either of you, and I was very paranoid. That was my heights. My paranoia- and I I almost didn't- come because I thought it was like a a setup. I thought you were going to do all these gotcha questions and and try and make you look like a fool. I probably,

Let us therefore, but I wasn't because of you in the way it is a great things of you. I was there. I watched it back so that nervously mathematical. Do you got something like thirty thousand views or someone like. Maybe, even though we had thirteen subscribers at the armed with large watch two thousand, it was great and I will confess from our end as well that we actually didn't know that much about you know and pepper, and we need We just knew that you were writing for Jonathan pie, yes and we were keen to speak to him and you know you're using me to get to have exact lie there and others when we were there, but actually It's funny huh, that's worked out because he's ok. The gun in his own direction, but I think you ve contributed much too many of the conversations that we had and frankly to just the cultural landscape in the uk. You know you,

and this is one of the things that really strikes me about. You know the personal stuff that you talk about in the book, because you open with a very old good friend of yours, a fellow colleague. We won't go into the details, you know going off to you very hard. Yes, it was a way. So I mean this is how have opened the book, because I think so many people have lost friends through this cultural, so many people, I've spoken to have somebody family members all over the slightest point of political disagreement and them. This was an event that took place in a bar in. So how and I was out with this married couple who have known for many years, and we were having a great time having drinks, we will get a bit tipsy

about an hour- and he started shouting at me screaming at me. Calling me a nazi and I thought it was a joke, and then I probed about. I realized. Oh no, it's not and he's been thinking about this for awhile, and then I tried to work out what it was and it turned out. It was because he didn't like that. I'd written for spiked magazine he, he I'd, sat there as one of the jonathan privateers. It's satirize the point of view that he had lt- and that was basically it and I couldn't adams light, but that's not fascism disagreeing with you slightly on political issues. These are not the same as calling for an ethnic state is just, the same, so it was with some really the book about me, trying to make sense of what kind of world are we now where as someone who knows me knows what I believe knows that I'm a vocal about and of racism- knows that I have no doubt fascism is there. I stand. The gains knows that nonetheless can convince himself and is an intelligent person that I met that I'm a nazi

What kind of world can we begin with that can happen, said my books and attempt to explain how we reach that point. Do we reached the point where it's I shall be said in the mainstream media that Jake I rolling is transferred or said transphobia things when she actually has never said transphobia thing, How will we in this position where people are just buying into fantasies, even though the evidence is there? Should you want to spend a minute to google it? What what's going on? So that's that's a really good point hundred I've. Never I I think those of us have been sometimes on the receiving end of some of the stuff we haven't actually processed in some way. What the significance of what you're talking about life, whether its david Lamy, going on on the bbc and saying that breaks the tears the idea worse than nazis, your friend calling you that, like I don't think we ve

I understood like what what the ranging world view it takes for someone to think like that. We've started to accept, definitely yeah, I mean like even with gb news, if you think about when gb news was announced four months before it was aired, you have thousands of activists and mainstream commentators saying this is a far right echo chamber? No one scene it! No one! No one knew what, if not even the people were any knew, what it was at that point, and then when it was on the screens, and it clearly wasn't and they were clearly a balance of left and right wing views and it people we are giving. You always make an effort to bring people of different voices, even when it is clearly not what they said it was, they still say it is what the fantasy they designed on. So so, I think all of this, and this so many examples of this kind. and in the night I'm sure you must have the same? Ninety nine percent of the people who attack you online right? They will be people who have just decided what you are and created this monster of their imagination in order to attack. I I rarely have an angry critic come at me and

I fully replicate what I think they'll say. Or will you believe this? You believe this happens. Emma publicly per private, privately educated, tori, loving homophobic, get that as light while I went to a calm but never vote tory, and you know if I'm home of home my boyfriend better told about that, and I know it's like it's: it's they just so wrong and even when you and tat the wrong. When you need to know this is what I actually believe me when I announced this book, the new puritans I had loads, a tweet saying we're gonna burn this book this book the bin. Why you against social justice- and let me read the book

stunned, that I'm not against social. Just I'm against people cooperating the phrase but that it yet but has become so it is maddening. That's the worthy you're right to use that word, because you know this is a movement. I think I think everyone's baffled everyone's baffled, because in a most people are decent people and they want everyone to have an equal shot things in life, and this movement comes along that uses all these really provide if sounding phrases like social justice, anti racism, equity and so good people are like, oh okay. Well, we should get on board with that, obviously, but they can sense and see that what the movement is actually doing. Is against. All of those things is creating more rice it's dividing us. It's it's it's it's not advancing the cause of social justice. It's legitimize and bullying. It's a it's a got, a vicious, inhuman, cruel quality about it and we can see all of this stuff and people can see that confused, because it

sold to them in this progressive language, so what they are really realised in writing. The book is that this is a battle to culture. Is about about language and about who gets to the fine words, and so in order to express it in the book. I have to first explain what the movement is, what it, what its objectives are, what it achieves and all of that is counter to how it describes itself? So it's really messy and complicated. That's why it needed a full book, because you can't just explain that straight what you can't explain. You know if you take the phrase anti racism were all against racism, so why would you object to? principle of anti racism until you read a book such as how to be an anti racist by April next candy- and you re what he means by anti racism is not what we mean by anti racism. What he means is being proactive in the discovery of racism, on the assumption that all human interaction is underpinned by racism and that all why people are complicit in white supremacy, whether they won't like it or not, as the robin de Angelo take on it that in these,

the that, and so therefore, in fact, alone alone, he put errors or economics candy in his book says that the dichotomy of not racist and racist isn't real and that being not racist is just another racism, similarly alone, a lantern is another critical rice hustler said that to be not racist is a discursive form of racist violence. So do not raising these violent hurts. You ve got these anti racist activists urging people to be racist in order to not be racist. It makes no sense, so you have to talk it through and explain why, if you're genuinely against racism, you have to be opposed to anti racism.

So how do we make sense of that? And this is deliberate? Isn't it if you redefine words and then deny that you are redefining the words you effectively end up gaslighting the word and that word gaslight used that word, isn't that yeah kind of it while it comes in at nineteen forty film, where you know the husband is constantly lowering the lights and the wife is saying. Why is it getting dimmer in here, and he said? No, that's just your head, it's all in your mind and that's what they do to us

at the time, so they'll say this is a largely peaceful protest, is burning buildings behind the guy, but he'll just say: oh, it's largely peaceful, because I think by describing something as largely peaceful, it becomes largely peaceful everything's about the language and they can deny the observable reality in front of your eyes and they'll do it and that would drive you insane and the blindside you with jargon and they'll, say you're too stupid to understand critical race theory, even though the fundamental precepts are not that difficult to grasp and they'll throw jogging, even though they'll put you off and actually what I what I want. I've tried to do in the book, because I think actually, this stuff is understandable and the only way we can defeat it is if we get it. If we have a secure grasp of what it is, they're doing and how to push back against it. So that's the point sounds out the words of a nazi but arrogant, but the point you make about woods is very profound like when you were talking about how they've changed the meaning of words, and the most obvious instance of this is a word yet when suddenly we all knew

what a woman was the five six years But now the word woman is up for grabs. That's just inside yeah, and you can see when, when a politician is asked what is a woman? I've seen of those sites. That's like a gotcha, western. Why, using these gotcha questions? What is a woman is not got your question. It's actually a a means to test the honesty of the ruling class. If, if, if you can't sit there and tell me what a woman is then trust you want anything else, because I know you know what a woman limiting the point You see the bear in their eyes the terrified like they stammer, they bade they they reach they obfuscate. They do anything to answer the question that come. No, no, I don't think we can conduct this debate with you, so you get your own eyes. No! No! I just- and the reason I am afraid is not just because they are engaged in a lie,

his? They know. Everyone knows it's a lie. You know they did this idea that none of us know what the difference between men and women. We all know the difference, but were expected to proclaim that we don't that there is no difference, and that's that's why. I think that's a very good example of of the notion of a kind of its not just mass hysteria, its people coming along with the hysteria for the south of sake of self preservation, which is why, in the book, I've I've drawn a lot of parallels with the salem witch hunts, because I think, there's a really good way to understand. What's going on at the moment, if you look back at that unique moment in history which only lasted about a year in the late seventeenth century and in in salem,

and you had a small community by means of the puritans of new england were not which hunters this is not something they did in many were europe. Thousands of women were burnt his, which is this didn't happen. The puritans were like this. This was a lapse. It was an aberration and what so interesting to me about the issue of this community of decent good people who would suddenly believe there, which is everywhere, because a small group of girls claim that they could see them and so and only lasted that that's short period of time. But what happened? The key parallel here is not just about the human susceptibility for group. Think of the way in which we go along with narratives. If we told to, if not just that it's it's, that the elites were propagating it, so it would never have happened if, when these girls dies screaming up that there, which is everywhere that judges and magistrates and the ministers, who said no that's not

true, it would have ended overnight, but they didn't they became complicit. They said it is true, it's like all politicians, they could all say. We all know what a woman is. Can we stop this? Now they don't they go along with it. You know when they say you all actually yeah there is a. They said they go along with the activists and they perpetuate the hysteria and that's where I think the main, the main parallel between the two things exists and the other thing about what I find fascinating, at the salem instance, is the more I read about it, the more I realized a lot of the elites didn't believe it. They just didn't believe it as written. using moment where one go in court, could you know they were pointing? women understand saying that we are sending their shape out the pinch them and torment them. They would say, oh, that their spirit is blown up to the beam. I can see it, no one else could see it, but it was the girls lived experience. It was all the in all of the prosecutions was secured by what they called spectral evidence. We call it lived experience. What it means is my truth. I dont need evidence is just my treat. I feel it therefore

true. So it's the same thing like justice. Today, the accusation of nazi fascist, racist time a is taken as proof, because that is the lived experience of the accuser backing salem. That's the spectral evidence was was too in his proof and they would say- and as I was saying, that this one go the radiantly moment she pulls out small, but a knife at summit has been broken off a blade and she's custom. She says the which is just don't listen to me and the man at the court. A local farmer said that that's broke off my knife the other day, and you saw that happen and you picked it up, and so they knew she'd been lying. But instead of acknowledging this, the magistrate say: oh well, that's quickly. Move on to the next thing is load. If you read the court reckless his loads of examples of you know, they will accuse William fix the governor of the colony.

They killed his wife and the magistrates just said, let's move on that's not real. Let's move on, they accused the acting president of harvard college. A guy called willard samuel, willard lake used him in the magistrate said you must be mistaken. You must be joking constable. Willard who's already in jail, you've already accused and you're getting confused. What does the devil get confused or do the elites know? Actually this isn't real, but if we speak out, they'll accuse us and that's where we're at today. We all know the difference in male and female. We all know that this anti racist movement is making society more racially divided. But if you say what everyone knows, you open yourself up to accusation and you can be the next to be condemned and it's a different form of condemnation that no one's gonna get hanged as the the stakes are pretty high in salem, but we could you can have your life destroyed. Your reputation destroyed your career

destroyed. If you, if you say what we all know to be true, so there are, there are parallels it on, and the other reason I wanted to talk about that account is that it's a really good way to get out of this. There's there's a lesson in salem of how to get out of this at. Firstly, it stopped because there was a tipping point when too many people started saying no, the girls are lying. There are no witches, it just stopped. That was one thing that the second thing that happened is that the some of the I think it was the deputy governor, wrote to the leading clergymen in the country and said: can we use spectral evidence? Can we prosecute on the basis of spectral evidence and they said no, that's not admissible, and so all of the things collapsed overnight. So I think it will just take people

I stand up and say no, the witches aren't real. We don't live in a country, you know which is full of fascists when we can look at the evidence again and go by and make a judgment based on evidence not based on lived experience of feeling, and if everyone just did that, if all the people in power just did that this would end and we'd be. but in the play the also miller play it was john prompter who had to sacrifice himself in order that this could come to an end, without was real, I mean so. When Arthur Miller wrote the crucible year the the figures in that who end up being hanged, rebecca nurse, John proctor, etc. They were real figures who were hangs because they were so devout. They weren't prepared to say they weren't prepared to lie to save their necks because they they believed in the the everlasting perdition, hellfire and damnation they weren't gonna

amd themselves by lying, but a lot of people did a lot of people would just say: yeah I've, I've I've met with the devil because they were terrified of being hanged and they said that they'd signed his book and all the rest of it and, of course the puritans believed in mercy. I mean I called this book the new puritans but they're, nothing like the periods volt, it's an analogy. The puritans have already believed in mercy, and they would they. They have incredible leniency leniency the courts. Would let you off, if you confess, to witchcraft and its but yeah you're, right that the jump properties of this world that also brought when people like him, if you'd like rebecca nurse, these local people have ever loved stopping hanged people got concerned, he needs people like yeah any and walk My worry is Andrews. I see the elites of people at the top. None of them have that level of integra no but light. We do need people at that and I think the way out of this hysteria, which is what I think it is welcome. That will be people who have been sacrificed alone

by the people who speak out earlier stifler. Looking at me, my wireless, but you ve got the people. People will be cancelled data they already have been near. You know: people like gittin, philip rosy k, you people have lost their jobs, been dragged through the courts all that stuff and it will continue to happen, but then it will reach a point where so many people are getting cancelled. Everyone about enough what we're going to speak out about it, so I think yeah you're right likes People will, you know, it'll be horrible, but it makes it easier. Doesn't it for the people to speak out later yeah? It does definitely have character. Okay, do you believe in spring cleaning? Yes, but only when my wife does it in russia, men who clean the executed for not being real men, which is good as well for those men who are all living in the twenty first century, minds: skaters an incredible offer for years. Landscape of the global leaders immense below the waist grooming. I'd have forever changed the grooming game with the remains

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Well, I was going to ask you something out, but before I do where, if we take the analogy that you've given yet of the witch trials in salem and the process by which eventually people come round to having it, a sensible view of these. Yes, where are we on that journey with this? Well, I thought things are getting better and then, of course, that that is the key events of the sum of twenty twenty, where the culture exploded into the mainstream in all of the stuff that all three of us have been talking about for years, human values, These two dismissed as I always just a few students, you're you're, bringing about a few overzealous people on on university compasses. No one says that anymore Diana because is now in the mainstream. Evidence of what we ve been talking about is everywhere it's irrefutable, but it doesn't. That doesn't seem to be any sign of the momentum. Lowering does that you don't think so. No, not really the right by. Let me put some counterpoint to you where I've I've been thinking about. So

you know. I've said from day one that, logically, it would be the trans thing that broke into sectional. Yes, because the level of suspension of disbelief and the level of damage visible damage that would be done in the name of trans ideology would would be difficult. Even for people who are prepared to live with a lot of cognitive dissonance, agree to choose to maintain the illusion, and we ve seen the shutting down of tavistock. Yet here, the uk we ve seen thousands of parents now suing tavistock. We see every day more and more detailed position, as I read this incredibly powerful peace yesterday by a parent who had transitioned, I dont. If you saw this, he was literally called that transition, my child. I regret it or something. I don't like very very

before you start to hear these stories of people who ve gone along with this and then either themselves suffered through surgery and whatever all they ve. They ve hurt children yet our own children and those voices are more and more audible. Now, to me, combined with me, no changes in reality and in the clinic being shut down the Alison Bailey case. You have in mind for a start, a case you're starting to see some shift on that issue. I you know You know reassured that that is the start of the momentum that lie slowing, oh yeah, I mean all of that. Stuff is incredibly reassuring and I think that those are signs of where things might be healing, but I think because we obviously we talked like minded people.

The law. We may be miss how embedded this is no remain closer. The tavistock is one thing, but look at the way that the transact was a try to spend a good news story and that actually just means that they can be able to open up gender clinics around the country that are more localised, of course, is not good news for them, because it means that things will be scrutinised more more closely. But absolute. I mean you're right that the the extremity of what they are expecting us to swallow will be its own on doing right, because we all know that the majority of gender, not conforming children, all gay or turn out to be gay in later life. So you are effectively have a supposedly progressive movement that is effectively medical lies in gay kids and if you,

I said that to anyone ten years ago who would have believed that that would be even possible, but do people fully understand gay and autistic gay and autistic or or people with other issues? There will be some children who have tent gender dysphoria, but they are the minority so who would have believed that, like ten years back? Who would have thought? That was something that could potentially happen and like say to me or burst, I very very quickly and ended very very quickly. This has all come about over the past ten years and hopefully will burn out just as quickly. He's gonna, take one major tipping point. I think I don't know- and I am Rachel buy- buy, buy stuff up, alert, jus, member that there was someone

the compensate image of all the labour mps holding up a sign, saying, ban trans conversion therapy right now, of course, when you dig in that sounds great, because you conversion therapy, think of like back in the day when they used to put electrodes on gay men and try and shock them out of their homosexuality. But of course it's not conversion therapy when that what they call trans conversion therapy is a specialist, a pediatric gender specialists talking to a child, to tease out what other possible reason that might be for the sense of dysphoria, be that homosexuality last time. If I may be the autism all those kind of things that you mention. They say that's conversion therapy, because ably there's an innate gendered soul and these persons just it and that it should be affirmed automatically whenever anyone makes them claim. So when a labour politician holds up, assign, saying ban trans conversion terribly their effect to be holding up a sign in support of conversion therapy because they are effectively putting gay kids on a pathway to address,

flies and fix them, but do they understand that? No, if, if those politicians understood the implications of what they were saying, they wouldn't hold about sign, but we have reached the point. and where the language has been redefined and shifted so much that people don't understand what it is. They're supporting. I'm convinced that the majority of people, if I had a full grasp of what the social justice movement is all about, wouldn't support it very very few- would support it even their thirteen percent, which is what the more in common initiative found, roughly thirteen percent of the country, would be classified as woke, would be classified as supportive of these critical social justice ideologies. The various interlocking strands of it and even them that if they understood what it was, they were supporting, I think the majority of them would back away in a heartbeat. You know the other good thing by the way. By that thirteen percent figure is. It shows that these cars? This is what the culture was often mischaracterized as the old fighting to keep up

at the young finance keep up with changing trends, but they are a minority in every generation, including the young, and that's bad news for the activists. Yeah, there's a high preponderance of younger people, but still the majority of younger people that are against it, and if those younger people understood that they were actually supporting a liberal, dangerous, divisive, regressive ideas, they would back away too. So it's all about the way out, I feel is all about understanding is all about exploding the myths. You know they put up this brick wall of language, to deter understanding and once you once people understand what they're actually saying then it won't be sustainable and I just go for andrew. I was going to do something I I hope you don't mind me sharing with with our audience, but when we were in edinburgh we did a live show together and before you know, we spent a bit of time together cause with this We were always running around with super busy here. We actually, even though a very good friends without actually get to hang out that might know, but we did tying our low, but

and one of the things I realized about your- u you is that. You were very very early to all of this. You were very early toll of the soul. you D, the falling out with. Would you begin the book happened way before? like frances, and I were doing trigonometry or any of that. You saw this very, very early yeah First of an unreal. I want to ask you a few things about the first world war was not like for you answer. kindly? Why do you think you saw at that early? I think I think it's more. I don't think it's like I'm a nostradamus, I think it's more that it's not in my nature, to, I can't just say something tat I know not to be true. It is not for me, I I can't do it so, for instance, altisidora habits so quickly light when the brakes, if our happened, sixteen and because the left and labour has always been anti eu. You know that It was, as it was a sudden change. It was sudden sea change overnight.

I mean, like even owen jones, wrote an article saying why we need to get out the. I think he coined the phrase lexi why we need to get out of the EU. This is a standard leftwing position. Jeremy corbyn was campaigning for forty years. To get out of the EU yes, I and all of a sudden. All my left wing friends were saying that oh yeah, we're really pray with you. They were really pro. This trading block is undemocratic, bureaucratic trading block that has capitalism and at the heart of it's constitution. I'm like this, isn't a left wing stunts and so I went to my show in edinburgh the stand until sixteen, so it was about a month after the vote was it was around the same time. So I did a pro breaks. It set a fact that I wrote my show to talk about that, and that was that was a really fun challenge cause I had because I knew while the audience would be remainers, and so I had to get them onside before I dropped that into the show, and that was quite kind of fun and

times that we wouldn't go well because it became hysterical, running very yeah. I I I realized this and I remember putting a post on facebook. Just saying that can never come down a bit, we're not all evil. The thing got reduced and it was the first time I've ever seen. This were a major political issue in which everyone was engaged. People more politically engaged than ever. People were having debates and discussions in like pubs, and you know everywhere it was. It was really fascinating, but it got reduced not just by like people online but by mainstream media as a debate between good and evil, a debate between racist and not racist, and I'm like this is not mapped onto the reality, and I start to notice this vince cable stood up at his spring conference and said that the reason people voted to leave was because they were nostalgic for the empire, she's, just not a thing. There is no one hears nostalgic grandpa. You might be able to find one or two crackpots here and they ll be a colonel and can be someone right, but none of us- that's not if it's just not a thing like this complete fantasy without

any evident he said, people nostalgic for the time when faces were white and passports were blue and they the map. The global map, was colored pink. Who are you talking about? You ve just decided this thing and you ve asserted. It is as, though is the truth, and it was the first time I was really seeing stuff like that. These people, who are mistaking their own arguments for proof, and it was happening- I know that's always and to some extent, but this was happening across the board and it will end the whole political landscape was being dignified, there were villains and they were heroes, and that was it, and I'm like this isn't real. I can tell none of this. Is real people are getting upset painting that is what the EU flag. They don't care about, you you didn't know it was three months ago right then they selling I I was. I talked to people who are going to vote remain and said well. Tell me about how the commission works. Tell me about the process they didn't. oh what it was, but he knew what they were voting for right. They didn't landing bullets checks that you ve just about. I'm voting remain because I'm a good person and because I'm not racist.

Well, you know the EU has some pretty borderline racist policies as its fortress europe, immigration by his fine with movement within its borders, but when it comes to coming from other continents, is pretty bad, hi libyan warlords to keep people in camps. You know, okay, so I think I hear me to say that the reason you vote to remains cause your pro migration. It, since it doesn't make sense and put doesn't ask that point is very profound. Does this is actually what all of this is which is people not analyzing. What's going on below the surface, they just take it. very cursory glance at a very complex issue, light breaks it all it issued a socially just.

And they make up their own minds and then they go with it, because because they are told that these people are on the side of the angels and- and you know if the girls are pointing and crying which so won't go along with the girls cause that that that they're doing god's work and also, if I don't they'll point at me and cry which so it's the same thing with brexit and then there was the same thing with trump and everything else reduced to you know good and evil, and it's like nothing is ever about good and evil. There are no good and evil people. It's like solzhenitsyn, says you know where it possible to just separate humanity into good and evil and put all the evil people on an island somewhere that'd be great but as he says the line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being and you're, not gonna, cut ipc run out your wife's trail ever yeah. I've listened more there or leave, but yet another this is.

if they were going to get that get so many emails now just for a cheap joke. Android didn't mean to cheapen the point that I agree with you. I I realize I've gone off tangent, but you haven't it relates what you were saying about why in in the comedy when, when I did that seventy nine sixteen- and I was just saying what I need to be true in may it funny oppositely hope, but realize then something is going on because I think comedians. I remember one comic you I'd know it wasn't me. I hear your supporting breaks, the I thought you were intelligent and then people were blocking made, I'd known for years on social made, comics maidens and then some of them were nervous about some of the Jonathan pie, videos, I've written which, with such rising stuff that they did and then I started noticing got you used to be our eyes, just assume where we can disagree right and we can. I used to do

friends all the time it was fun. Yeah and we'd have debates and stuff and then suddenly the climate shifted in to disagree menu with you were the heretic, you were evil, and so I don't think it was me noticing stuff earlier. I think it was just me. I wasn't prepared to just lie out. You know I mean breaks it the number of com x, you are openly pro breaks it. You could count on one about becomes is not that we are funding, reformers in arabic and you came up a pariah, the and someone but remember you eat you, you're someone who's got an incredible amount of fortitude, but I must have been difficult to to see that happen. I was just surprised that for a while I mean the the account I gave him the book of that there's things like that: the extreme things

if people scream you're a nazi there's, but even the fact that you were worried about coming to talk to us because you were so concerned about being misrepresented being attacked. But you know what like that at that time, especially though I didn't understand it I saw these things online people kept saying to malign things that I didn't leave as though I believe them. You know we now if you believe this, we know that you support free speech because you support racist and you want racists to be able to say what they want and I'm like. I don't support race. Where have I ever said, I support race you're, just making something up and I bring it to me and at that point now I sort of understand why it happens more and more because it's easier to fight with a figment of your imagination and then actually engage with what people say. But back then I didn't get it. I didn't understand it and I was very mistrustful of people asking for interviews, because I thought it was always going to be a hit job. You know, so that's and I'd never heard of youtube. No offense like I wish we hadn't gig,

yeah like so I was like other young people. You come in here you and so a swell faces got never. You know who I was either you that united so right with that, but it is not that I'm not trying to dig up that insight I guess, what I'm getting eyes you it's not been easy like I'm, not. I know someone who complains about it is just occurred to me that being first through the breach, you always take most of the arrows. You know what I mean, while at the I still to this day, don't quite understand when I, when I catch a good cause, so many comedians don't talk in front of me and all the of history, but when I catch a glimpse of something they say online, I you know it. I'm, like. I didn't recognize myself there like, like just We find me the evil or light let the far right person on his life, but I'm at clearly not. but if you ve just decided that I am in some, some comedian log about the comedy unleash night reason, which is

I run and they start took about how the acts a comedy. let's just go and stage spout racism in the attack, minorities, which is little it never happened at comedy. At least I wouldn't book that person, because that person isn't going to be very funny. That's just not a thing again, it's like so I don't know even how to I'm continually surprised by cause my. Why would you be happy to just live in a fantasy world? Why would that make you? Why not? Why is that not the slightest point of curiosity If I thought there was a far right comedy night going on, I might want to see what they actually saying there and the thing is a great thing: you can get seventy them, as online and when you watch them you realize it's just its. at least is just another comedy night, where you note with often people come into the same sets they do elsewhere. Is that every now and then we cultivate an audience that isn't gonna complain about being offended. We cultivate an audience that is comedy litera and unjust. and that the committee knows on stages, not literally expressing their opinion that their expressing jokes and every

Then a comedian will find me up and say: can you can I do this night because I don't feel I can Why this new material anywhere else right and that's the perception in the industry where the people deny it. But it is a perception, and it's not, that we've setup a night to platform fall right people, because we hate minorities or that we think that other comedians can't say what they want on other platforms or on other stages, Listen what we're doing it all is, but it's a weary I mean when we announced the comedy unleash tore recently the hysteria from It was hilarious. One guy start saying: if you do this to your fucking scab, I'm in in the kitchen these guys got radio for starters. So he's not that much banana and you know it's like it's weird and then then the blog and all these people going up and on about attacking the comics on the bill. You know and the the comics we have a from a broad spectrum of political views. They're mostly left wing cause that's more left than right wing comics, but there were some rightwing comics there as well there.

Different comedic stars, the key things has just all really funny and interesting, and you know the are prepared to sometimes put some of them. The boundaries, not one of them, even that's, not even a criteria, but it was just it's like. So there's a tour guy around the country which just has a variety of different acts and people come along and laugh and people are reacting as though it's like a far right rally. Or so it's weird to me. I don't you know, I'm I'm julie baffled by it. But the whole thing is with this: just be honest: this would you written about it's fucking, we're not in it. this up, you see them talk to one another I launched some of them are considered. My friends are one point I mean they probably done. Consider me a friend anymore, but they just knowing, you know, like those data, I dont know what to say things like in casual conversation. I must cease man what the hell is going on here. You know I must cease why man issues in seem frankly, language in its effect, infected their world view, but he's

certainly normalized around these. Can it's weird it's it's. When the the left took a turn from class to group identity at that's what I mean that's what what happened here, unlike what I try and explain this thing in the book- and I say it like a kind of hydra with many heads you know because you ve got you got a strand about race, gender and all these things are different decal race theory is very different from queer theory say, but they all come from the same wellspring. They will come from the same fundamental postmodern assumptions that, for instance, our understanding of reality is constructed through the language that we use. That's why they're all obsessed with language and manipulate the manipulation of language, so they all have a shared body, just many different strands and and therefore it's really hard to describe them, because what you call them because they they wage the war through language, we know

Well, for start, they called themselves woke in two thousand fifty and they were all calling themselves working and jackdaws. He went on stage with a stay, woke, t shirt, nigger burns launch the edinburgh festival by saying the next generation of comics are gonna, be woke, and we look forward to these new, woke. Well, no one said oil. Why? Using a right wing slur? No one said: that's a snarl would but then because people I started using the word to describe them, because that was the weather beaten themselves. That was a courtesy I was using their word right and and they say no knows- is a right wing snarl word to attack to us disintegrators anyone to use The word were, and so that might be Google than by ten minutes ago, recording of work- we can check not, but it didn't care about that because they just deny reality. So another way. If you can't name an enemy, you can't defeat the enemy in the marketplace of ideas, so that any term that we come up with to describe them, they will problematize. So I call it the critical social justice movement, but that's kind of difficult to explain. You have to sort of explain it. first, you can call them leftist ident terrans, but they're not meaningful

lack of extreme progressive, but that's misleading as well, because they're not progressive or regressive. I so so. Whenever we come up with that there isn't a white sought, a pin them. Down and that's it that's another reason. I wrote the book because I want to try and pin them down Call them the new puritans, because then the analogy of puritanism. As being you know, it's been a colloquial terms for many is which we all understand, as meaning someone with a precision is than prohibited, prohibitionist and see. Priggish. If you like, an intolerant intolerance and sorry, I'm not making I've had lots of christians get onto me, they're very angry, I'm not legally on my mac bomb, not taking the puritans of old, I'm very clear that there is a distinction, whereas the puritans of old believed in there they had a constant awareness of their fallibility. There are constantly down so they didn't know if they were the elect or the damned they they. They knew

if they were unworthy before god. The new puritans don't have extreme certainty. You hear the way they talk, never never crosses their mind. They could be wrong. So I'm not saying that the same I'm using a shorthand, so that we can understand who they are and whether coming for that, the attempt anyway, whether it works, not a process, you believe in diversity and inclusion of Kosovo to my dating histories filled with diversity and inclusion. I am nothing if not an equal opportunities, employer or you're pretty, Partners do seem to be of the same sex or not inclusive, but if you're worried about the poor, arising effect of diversity and inclusion in workplaces, then you have to attend the counterweight conference on liberal approaches to diversity and inclusion. We ve had people from counterweight on these very show to talk about how this can be achieved. Great people we want to improve society count away.

Leave that there is a need for diverting inclusion that aims to eliminate workplace racism and discrimination through a liberal and unifying lens. The current white isn't working and will lead to less divisive approach to speakers also form a guest of hours, including Eric counselling, though also giving free access for a very limited time, to a huge variety of resources, showing how diverse and inclusion can't be done properly without the old. We actually nonsense, peddled by those who shall not be named. So, if you're interested in making a workplace better

everyone. Then you have to check out the counterweight conference on liberal approaches to diversity and inclusion. We promised there won't be any lectures with titles like why painting your bathroom, why is a micro aggression? It's an online conference on the twenty second to the twenty fifth of september. Go to sea w! Don't hate! Why? As you m m, I t dont come and use all code trigger port twenty at check out, but twenty percent of an all access pass: go to sea, w dot, case summit dot com and use our code trigger port. Twenty, a check out for twenty percent of an all access, Parson- like stolen will. Probably one includes. Have you not now I d done we will fit, but you said that did not progressive their regressive. I would push back home that because they wouldn't identify as being regressive, they utopians

want to get to this magical utopia and they think that if they keep we what they're doing- and you know they fall So all the biggest arises to transpose all this. They stamping out destroy it- we're going to get to this beautiful utopian where we're all equal right, and it's not true, because human Wind is messy yeah and the great thing about the liberal project. I mean they. They they reject liberalism, quite explicitly. So if you read the the foundational texts of critical race theory they describe it as being an anti liberal movement, they dont believe in liberalism and they say we live in a society where racism still exists. Therefore, the liberal project has failed social liberal is

it has failed, but it was social liberalism never makes any claims that it can make humankind perfect, it's an ongoing project and whereas what we do, as liberals is address racism and injustice as and when it happens, what they do is they try and seek it out in the shadows and identify where it may not exist and often doesn't exist, so they will call an institution, they will say institutionally racist, they'll, say Oxford university, institutionally racist and then someone else might say, but the data shows that incidents of racism at oxford are really rare. They bandy happen until doesn't matter, because we have some lived experience of someone who's. You know so. Therefore you know it, it must be so that's the way they operate and I don't think they are progressive and I think we do need to push back in the way that are describing, but but the prague hey. I think why it's become so difficult is where is before this was being peddled by

invest online without them advertise or like the people. You can safely ignore the screamers, you know and the insane ones, but now it's it's it's from the elites and it's from the people in power. You know the the the the these ideologues dominate the civil service. They dominate the nhs, the army, the police, the government. By the way the tory government has presided over most of this over the past twelve years right they have just institute the online, mom's bill on my safety, but it used to be the homes which talks about legal but harmful speech, harmful speech so that using the lexicon of critical social justice, their part of the problem, when you try and describe the culture, the left versus right issue, you completely misapprehend, what's going on here, is a problem in all political party.

We can't vote these people out, you can vote in a labour government. A tory government is still going to get the woke because, if the civil servants his service, if the machinery of government is grinding in that direction, there is nothing you can do and that's why this is a problem because it is everywhere. It's in all major institute and look at what's happened with the leadership election, where the white candidate, who I actually was talking quite a bit of sense on these issues, was quite purposely excluded, quite from the vote by members who would have over welling late have voted for came a better, and this is why I think when you say that you're more positive about the movement It hasn't been rooted out among the echelons of power, that's where I get nervous and it's so easy to dismiss them as characterized. What's going on here. You know we get these stories every now and then it's like someone puts a trigger

warning on Hemingway's the old man and the sea, and this did happen at university. They put a trigger warning, saying it contains scenes of graphic fishing and what graphic fishing yeah. That was the trigger warnings on animal cruelty. I guess graphic fish, yeah yeah, it's pretty graphic because he hangs the fish on the side of his boat and the the sharks eat them bit by bit so yeah. It's quite graphic, but it's still fishing and that those things that they put a watering warning on a regular stevenson's kidnapped, saying it contains themes of kidnapping which sees them hide in the title to assimilate Julius Caesar parry. It's got a plan If someone gets stab, someone gets started, don't don't read about you'll, be very upset. He added. It's absolutely graphic, so all this stuff, it's funny right and we can laugh at this, but then take a step and thing. Is it that funny, because this isn't some activist online site These are my never mind that money Andrew. I never found this funny because, like you, I can play the move, afford yeah and if you play the move forward, you can see where this was goes. There's no, there's no question.

That if this movement was allowed to carry on down that path, the damage that would be done? And this is, as you know, the point I made in my book, which is if the west continues to engage in this- it opens up the door for other hostile act, is to come advantage of our division and weakness. Can we talk about the nonsense? The war denounces the new. sits there yet the chapter on the nuns philosopher there are eight hours. I've got a chapter on the origins of this year. Of this thing

and, yes, it does a lot of it does come from the post, modernists of the nineteen sixties, the french by MR jean francois leota, jacques Derrida, Michel foucault being the most obvious ones and there's an element, two of earth themes and ideas from the frankfurt school most notably the you know, people I adore and I wouldn't mind the whole time and people are gonna, have the the the mistrust of the masses. That very much is something that comes from the you know. They think that you know how like social justice activists they they they want to take scenes out of comedies, that they seem problematic, which is streaming services and are doing, of course, or they want to ban films or various books. You know whatever that comes from this idea, that if the masses are exposed to popular entertainment, they can be corrupted and that's that's something that has echoes of what they believed in the frankfurt school and you know the constellation of jerry soto. It's a show that is an adult show that is advertised at adults, with so many warning saying what it is, but the pleasant has said we need to decide on

oh behalf whether you can buy tickets for that not safe for you to buy tickets. For that, and then she said you know its harmful. They described as harmful, but now means that they believe in this idea, the popular in time it can corrupt the masses, which was the identical perspective, the merry white. It's not well, it's a very socially conservative point of view. If you think about it, which is like you know, the the the low leap, whatever yeah masses must plebeians the plebeian. It has to be protected from the corrupting inflow right of dead dead dig aiding art and culture, what exactly and to go back to your quest for co it and its principally pagoda by sight they dont site marquis. the franco at school, even though he wrote an essay on repressive tolerance where he was very explicit about the need to effectively not allow

conservatives to speak, not a lot right wing is to speak. So it's interesting that they don't cite that more yeah, but they do cite fuca when they want to read him. What's interesting about like, like all religions, a lot of the faithful, don't read the holy texts. You know, and I have to read a lot because I was teaching him and I was- and I was on the eve- the major aspect of my doctoral faces. So you know I was already state in this kind of stuff, but in short term, but the most important thing is is proposing belief in this nexus of power and language that he sees. Power is not being this top down phenomenon, but it runs through all strata of society read that runs through and that's where they were going on about power structures in the way which language or jokes normalize, hate or legitimize violence. That's how they see They see. This is a fundamentally linguistic discourse, that's how they comprehend reality. She do need understand where it's come from. I think that's why I don't want to people go into too much is just one chapter. I just talk about those origins in a hopefully excessive

while the reason I brought up than the nonsense as yet another choky point is that I mean we know the full co was about partial to that sort of thing he slept with under age boy, yes and Some people like I see this online, I donno what'd. You know how much basis there is to it. are increasingly concerned that this process, of never ending deconstruction. Yeah is aimed at deconstructing all sorts of social needs arms and one of them once you get past the deconstructing, the idea of ex yeah engender then? The next thing is to start calling pedophiles minor track people and on and on it goes. Would you make like a mother, I think, I'm concerned when I see activists and academics by the same thing that icily talk about minor, attractive persons. Now we should bring them into the algae bt. I umbrella,

and all of that and the thing is, it is very few people saying that, and we do have to be clear, but I don't think this is a common thing at all and I think it's a big current conspiracy to real to say yes, because fico had these tendencies. Therefore, he's developed these there is that now other you no secret nonsense of you. Do nothing, that's conspiratorial that highly theories were partly produced by later why enjoy your reminder of why he created the theories he created. But rather to the person who sort of kids you know was it does that the foundation of, gender as also yes had John money, yeah yeah. So you're like to me. That is not insignificant, so insignificant because its moral reprehensible behaviour, but why? Why would we? Why would we design society? and the ideas of to pay false is, I guess, not not? Why those ideas to call the people were in

within academia, people want elevating food coming, people really did there's even a guy called David, I hope, or any wrote a book called saint foucault towards a gay hugging, your graffiti, literally day of eyes. I, when I was a university for color, was like a god and he would invoke him who- and that was the end of discussion, and I was very sceptical about And you know I didn't think he was a good historian- and I wanted to talk about this stuff- and I remember, being in a conference- and this academic talked about how to code for code mentioned that this particular sexual activity wasn't or didn't happen in the ancient world and I asked the question: is how do you? How did he know, and they didn't know why he knew, and you too he just assert this stuff. It's it's shoddy stuff really, but but the the theoretically those ideas caught on almost by accident. It wasn't because of what he thought about it. I I kind of feel sometimes this stuff just happens accidentally a little bit. You know these ideas become fashionable fashioned, explains an awful lot. Yes and then all of a sudden people are like, and also deconstruct,

text is fun right. If you take our approach, when I was at the stunning, an underground and the institution, we want really reading a poem for its its artistry for its humanist quality, for its support for the poetry of the things we were trying to work out, which bits a sexist which bits homophobic. Which puts a racist and then right up the opinion. I send you get first, it was moral, detective work right, it's it's! You know you, you It's really boring reaction. Teasing out the contradiction that in the text trying to work out problem arising that takes look, I used to do it myself, in order to do do about about shakespeare and and and and

I find that sort of stuff embarrassing now, but I die and it's easier. It's it's an easier approach, and it's also, you know my supervisor, robin Robbins, who I've dedicated the book to I, and he said to me once that he all of this sort of post, modernist fashion with an english literature those books get published because the publishers don't understand the jargon. So you have people like Judith, cutler dressing. What is a relatively simple idea up in twenty different clauses, overblown overloading, really turgid prose. That is just jargon, laden and unpleasant to read and lacking in clarity, but these are ideas that can be expressed with elegance, Should you wish to do so that small ideas and- and I do not understand the difficult ideas- sometimes take difficult terms to explain them, but not those ideas and- and so he was saying, that's why these things get published. Also, these theories

we're constantly quoting each other, creating this illusion that they generated this body of knowledge that they were important and they're just quoting each other and are flimsy ideas. I mean that and that time I think it took an. I don't think it was queer theorists trying to normalise paedophilia. I think that's what was happening that interesting, andrew cheating, poverty as well. Is it just men? She feel good. Oh yeah, like this, more funding. So judging someone else and saying I'm more morally superior than you always united in its new, yes, going. Look how cry! I am the first thing I had a great time did, of course, and and yet this partly that there's an excuse, Let the inquisitors he was stopping women to the rock back back in the day what they thought. They were good people and these great as you can buy cruelly and can bully people, but you can still call yourself a saint. I mean what what's not tonight. Right. You know and the uncertainty these people do this, but also in addition to that and again I think that's

so a veering into trying to work out motives, and I don't. We necessarily can do that. I think the other when it is. People do Jane they genuinely have bought into a genuinely believe it. How could it be? Otherwise? You know when you get like it was in ontario, wasn't it last year where a school board it's not just a school board, a body of thirty schools, the board that controls thirty schools, remove five thousand books from the library shelves because they had outdated depictions of race and they burnt a number of them, and they called this a lane purification and then they use the ashes of the bird books to fertilize a new tree is not beautiful and- and they obviously think this is this fahrenheit for five one. But I think this is that to do something that self sat arising and is not just like the nazis activists- that's a schoolboy that shows that schools right, the major body? That's why matters right, routers activist burning,

they did all the time a jacket, rollings, books and stuff. They have they threatened by my book right, donna, cabin, they can burns many books- you want something you buy. It first do that, but when of school board, county school board not only removes the books in the shelves, but burns them was it a fine purification ceremonies and they can't see what they occasions of eta. I dont believe could have done that if they could see with any sense, I think they must have bought into this. They must think that those books, a dangerous historical books that represent people in a way. The reason why doktor sues these data doctors, who is known on the publishing six of his books because about eighty racial stereotypes in a blight and they'll, took back her outdated register it out. They re polish mark twain, huckleberry fin without the racial epithets doesn't make sense, because an anti racist broke into book that satirizes these these sort of priggish self righteous good christian people who nonetheless enslaved their fellow human beings- and it takes a boy to see through that right. That's an anti right

spoke and once you tight as right left, that's how it doesn't work. The subtle loses its teeth. So what's killer mocking bird, you know and they can only see the language. They only see the racial epithet and to kill a mockingbird and they ignore the message of the book is kind of like people who don't understand comedy particularly satire satirical comedy they just. They can't understand that somebody could be a character on age, you're, saying something that they don't believe that that the it's incredible how humorless these people are and I'd do I'm not very strange, but under the new puritans I it's really recommend people get this book and having to have a good rate of it, and that we can ask you some questions for locals. But I will say I'll. Just as one question I want to us and the one thing I want to push back. Do you say it? You can't look into other peoples. You know fines and barbara biafran. I just can't I've, I. U can golf course at that

that we all know some very, very dodgy people in our industry and they're, always the most work. Yeah yeah sure that there is, that coincidence isn't there. But why did you think that might be because I think they use it as a tool to shoot and protect themselves and also attack other people who they seem to be their enemies, and I also think that he's very likely, but I won't say, is that I definitively no, I dont know why maybe they have bought into it. But it's not I mean I say in the book. You know some people down these sacred robes out of a sense of duty and some people done them as a disguise and will never know which is which we all we can do is really push back against. The argument, push back against the ideas and if you know, if your propagating these terrible ideas that are making society more racially divided, that are attacking gay kids, all of that sort of thing-

and you're doing it for nefarious reasons or you're doing it, because you sincerely believe it actually doesn't matter either way. We still need to treat take the argument at face value push back at it. An argument stands or falls on its own merits, not whether the person sincerely holds the belief So it's just it's just more sensible. I I argue to to assume good faith and destroy the argument anyway, and is the best way, because also the other thing is, if you don't do that, you're doing what they do, you'll get you on their level that you know cause when I present arguments in defense of free speech. They make these claims that I'm you know, as I said earlier, that I'm support trying to support fascism and that's not an argument. Is it so, but I mean that's that would be my advisor. We already know, even if you know they're, lying or you're, pretty sure just did these arguments fall apart, really easily doesn't depend on their sincerity. Andrew. Thank you so much for coming back the new puritans make sure to go out and grab that

the andrew again ask you a couple of questions that are. Local supporters have already submitted way, I'm nervous, but before we do before we do. We, as always, have the final question, which is what is the one thing we still know talking about as a society that youth we should be ok. I knew you were going to ask this every time you asked me this. I I I. Forget that I was raised. I was meant in the headlights interrogated, it's not funny. It's the only thing I struggled what do I think we're talking about that we want. I don't think we do. So what do I think we're not talking about that? We should be talking here:

What is an issue that you don't think gets enough attention that actually really matters? To be honest, it's the issues that I wrote in the book, which I know we talk about them along, but I don't think the mainstream are particularly you know. I cover a lot of these issues on my show on gb news and other news channels. Just don't touch them, and so I think we often fall into the trap of assuming that, because we talk about them everyone's talking about them. Actually most people on most people don't understand it. I mean you mentioned earlier scan themselves assess. I would suggest that most people still don't know what this means, and they certainly do not understand it. If you don't believe you have a gender identity without subscribes to ideology. Describing yourself assist is incoherent. Like describing any one assist is incoherent, because the word means someone whose body biological sex aligns with the their gender identity. But you can't call someone that if they didn't believe in gender identity, it doesn't make any sense. So so why

yet the issues that we are talking about now are the things that most people are talking about. Now, that might be a bit of a cop now. It would not make sense to me, since I got great copper andrew, you dont. Thank you so much for coming back and thank you for watching and listening will see very soon with another berlin episode like this one or or show all of them go at seven p m uk time for those who not your trigonometry on the go. It's also available as a podcast take care and see. soon guys with see local Does the tanya ever have said, Tonia mcgraw

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