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dot com you whenever you want, but don't you in front of children, is that so hard Is it really so hard, I'm not in favour fully anybody's sexual activities or king. So whatever anderson kind of prohibition I dont think is unreasonable to say, let's not exposed children to it low welcomes it. Trigonometry on France, pasta on constant and kissing, and this is a show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people are burnt guess today, who we ve been after for a long time, were delighted to have him on the show. Is an american journalist, Andrey Sullivan, welcome to trigonometry? Thank you. So much is an honour to be here. It's a great pleasure to have beyond the show

we know who you are, and we love your writing and your work. A lot of our audience does, while they ve been asking us to have you on the show for a long time. But for those who don't know you or your back story. Who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey through life that lead you to be sitting here? Talking to us, As the wasn't really story really, I grew up and in east grinstead well, you do yeah. I live close to their play possible. There are real How wonder I used to go to school and read him for a bit you did will always irregular grandma. I went to some bates who there you go This is a small bright lights and the low paid a group there. I went to ready grandma I was. I was sat next to cure storm. For five years, and we are we notoriously But each other every day on the four twenty eight, but he was a lefty communist I was I was

young thatcherite and we went on it. We ve, I mean that's another part of my story. Then I went to go scholarship to go to also studied history. Gotta scars, it's got a harvard, political philosophy there, and then I got an internship at the new republic magazine. which, at that time, was kind of like a spectator in london or fusion spectacular new statesman, which was Incredible opportunity for me to understand america for love of the place. I went back and forth. My pc, then surprise, surprise it. you think they d be the editor of the new republic, which I did for five more years, which was unexhilarating if crazy experience on two thousand. I am I started my blog daily did. I now have a substitute the weekly dish worked for the atlantic and new republic

in new york magazine your time magazine and I was the first person to really put marriage equality on the map. I guess and wrote the first in you of marriage, equality for four gays and lesbians school virtually normal. And later I wrote a book called. The conservative saw my the situation was on overshot. The british conservative philosopher who died hereafter. I finish my interpretation, so after a causal link. That is that we are suggesting. One last look at my dissertation. Him thought it was all over it was ass. You, the only second decision ever written about the energy invite give me the end of it to talk to him and his cottage endorse it and which is really a wonderful wonderful day to meet your idle to meet the person you ve been reading for a year and a half, and he didn't

We can argue, as as I hear you talking, I hear someone who is in love with journalism who has spent a lifetime in this profession. I'm afraid if you to pull the general public are. I would suggest that that love is not currently widely shared, and we ve seen over a long period of time. Now the sums strange things have been happening in the world of mainstream media and journalism, in particular,. What is going on in your opinion in that world. Will it's it's been in a serious crisis. I think for quite a while My own experience with what happens is it occurs shifted in the mid twenty tease, something around twenty fourteen twenty fifty something seemed to happen. I think was combination. things one. The media was in top troubled economically and it was there with terrified of going under they couldn't afford. What they had been doing, so they then reached out anyway.

terrified by the web. So then they reached out to young college graduates to come and help them out, and they let a hell of a lot of them in and they were all freshly indoctrinated in various elements of critical theory and had the hub it's all elite college campuses any swiftly began to turn newsrooms into the equivalent of these nightmarish college campuses, which have a kind of reign of terror. Fear of of fear of the wrong thing, fear of contrary ideas, a belief that speech itself rising itself word somehow a whole before that they are the equivalent of sticks and stones. Ah, and the dynamic emerged in these newsrooms in which these younger staffers would be incredibly absolutist about what they were demanding. I wanted a totally different staff based on different gender,

sex race, etc, etc. Wanted stories written again now without it we attempted objectivity, the goal was, to change the world through the methods of of critical fear, and and the desperate jeanne, allegedly liberal editors caved there's something about coolly. an older liberal person in america erases that will make them do anything. You want them to do, and one they figure this out once they figured out the absent Food insecurity, these of this only generation they just went to town. I mean I person, was it new york magazine. I went back into the amazon after being an independent blogger for a long time and I began to write what I thought about some of the sort of excessive tactics of, for example, the meeting,

not that I was in any way opposed to changing the atmosphere about sexual harassment and treatment of women in the workplace, which I supported entirely, but the notion that you could just simply slander people without evidence as rapists and assessed. Was sought office without any actual proof front me is terrible, so I wrote pieces saying I disagree with that sure enough pretty soon the young swaths of staffers decided that simply publishing my columns created an unsafe work environment for them and went to a jar. let me get room and I do not work in the office. I work at home, hundreds of miles away from where they are, but I was trading and unsafe working barn, because my ideas were harming them now. This went on for a while until eventually some twenty twenty. When I

could not and would not praise the rioting after the blm movement or the violence. I wanted to write a column criticizing the violence. They asked me not to write- and I said okay and at that point it was beginning to unravel and eventually they turned around a couple of weeks later and five me, and so then I started the weekly dish, which uses a weekly version of what I used to do and the good news is it's. It's it's great. It's doing really well, I enjoy it. I don't have to worry anymore about putting my foot in it and if readers don't like what they're reading, they can always unsubscribe. Every week too create and fill atmosphere of liberal open debate, I have descents strong, powerful it's against. When I wrote the previous week, which I am required to answer, which are selected by my colleague Chris, so it's a.

And would you in great my salary? Actually that's why I'm not I'm not wandering about council culture, because, even though I was cancelled, let it incredibly well from it. I tripled my salary overnight, but You see this dynamic in the nuisance. You see urge for what they call moral clarity, which means abandoning any pretence, presenting both sides. You have a younger generation using journalism as a form of social justice, activism, not actual laying of news already perceive opinion now. I have to think at this point things may,

be beginning to shift back and- and I think we ve seen some signs this week of that actually happening. I did the washington post, which is one of the workers of the work they finally had. It been fired, one of the most trouble making end passionate and fanatical social justice activists on staff after she had engaged in a week, long tirade against her colleagues, accusing them of many many different crimes, but especially those being white which was apparently the one thing. The one thing you can't you you you you, you are allowed to demonize people for so eventually she was fired as a friday last friday, which would be early june and I sense a list bit of advice shift, since the fact that readers are really not only can if offended by some of this screechy

partisan subjective journalism in replacement aboard by it and it's you you look at the new york times and you'll see thousand different columns of basic they're. All saying the same thing and ultimately this is kind of lead people to move away and has led to the great flourishing of substance, the existence of some second independence. If information is begin, I believe to effect the judgment of some of these other organizations and their beginning, jerry stabilize The thing I always find it and then let's look at the washington post, which is owned by jeff basis, a man who has been in my view, legitimately criticized for the treatment and the conditions of the people in his factories and their posts and without Julia actually had independent journalists come on. I'm criticise him and criticised

prices of amazon. Yet these people who described themselves is woke work for the animals washington, post, and they see no problem at all in working for Jeff baisers, whereas the trip national old school left the all used to identify with they wouldn't work to him, because I would say no treatment of workers is incorrect wrong, inhuman, whatever word they wouldn't want to use to describe it and they wouldn't do it. But these people have no problem. I can base installer and yet purporting to be more moral, then you lie or anybody else what they know that interested in the plight of working class. People actually in terms of economics, is Jeff bees or didn't have enough african americans his staff of we didn't have enough women, then they might get angry about it. But that's a real, Mr watson coups jeff basis, by going woke in this way,

and of course I am not entirely sure how fully aware he is what's going on media properties on, but if he, even if this is the dynamic, is it out of work? Populism is the ewe, Ewe, Ewe, Ewe, Ewe, distract people with, identity politics in order to justify and defend your own, exploitative, sometimes incredibly must victorian worked policies because you, but now you're a good person, because you, your politically correct and you are working- you are have had more africa mary, on your staff in you, you run stories that are full of references to white supremacy and the rest of it. So it's a kind of laundering, as it were, of a certain kind of economic inequality? A protest against that in favour of the sir identity politics and that's a struggle that the left is gonna have to figure out for itself, there's a big

the marxist over here, the best critique of the tuesday. Nineteen project was done by the old school martyrs and increasingly, even though I'm a conservative, I kind of like those people, because there they told me something real little money economics it on my college. But how do you protect workers of any race? And I think there is a sense that there's been a complete distraction from that and an that's beginning to be why, when you look at the pulling in america and you look at the election results in the last four years, using a really quite interesting shift towards the republic, from minority groups, is the best example of luxury white woke beliefs. Hurting african americans, for example, is the deeper

the police and the decision to demonize the cops in america that the people who have suffered from that. If someone from the drawback of policing a black lets, you know often immigrant communities that are facing, Crime every day on their own streets, crime that has soared last two years, while white wealthy, rules in their gated states. I tell them is good for them that we need to overhaul are white supremacist system. They are dying because of that kind. I have been shot, the the murder rate has gone up staggeringly and it's concentrated in these particular areas of poverty, which tend to overlap with with racial discrimination, two and so you're, beginning to see, I think, a real shift underneath politics in this country and I and I think the whole notion that, for example, The crops will ultimately winner because they represent the non white

and the non white on growing proportionately is slowly. Being dismantled, is an idea. We can see that lets, you knows, are no different than previous ways in liquids who just want to assimilate wanna. Take part the american dream didn't come here. from places like Venezuela or cuba has just set up, so she was and that they take this. Why is it they know what it means and then- no little side. Richie torres a brilliant young congress, person from new york, city, puerto rican, think and hope. I got that right on eighty openly gay who came out the last week is: how can we please stop using this term? Latin exe It's not eat it it just completely. Can you will try to tell latin culture that there's no male and female? Are you out of your fucking mind? I mean

the language is divided into male and female spiry language, and so, instead of saying that you know it, you know they have to politics and you know- and you have bide Joe Biden saying latin acts in a speech, but do is deficit that word in private in the entire history. life will, not least because hasn't existed for most of his life andrew. It's interesting to hear you describe myself as a conservative when I read your column, I get quite a strong liberal Ben from a lot of what you say. Two and, of course During the trump era. You were widely accused of having trumped arrangements in german and all of that So what what do you mean when you describe myself as a conservative, Someone who believes in avoiding drastic ideological change, some

and who believes in the organic development of society, someone who believes in the defence of institutions of the rule of law of tradition, generally speaking, and that is why a conservative defence of trump is simply impossible. He wasn't a direct radical threat, very big. the democratic norms. We now know this this this. This person try to ferment a essentially preventing a peaceful transfer of power, uniquely are anti institutional, radical, subversive attack on the practices that make a country work and that define the country. When someone is attacking the very heart of the liberal democracy? Aren't you? What do you mean specifically sorry to interrupt? Because france is now having followed the hearings that are going on right now, particularly closely what one europe

looking about him undermining these institutions. What do you mean specifically, I mean suggesting that the rule of law applies only to him that if, if, if the rule goes against emu will fire the attorney general, I mean clearly plotting to have elected from the states that had already selected Joe Biden to reverse the boats, actually helping organised violence too, to stop the past that the passing of power from trump two vital This is staggering: sending violent armed men into the sacred citadel of american democracy to bully and coerce people into reversing legitimate election result. there is no greater crime to be. Against a liberal democracy, and and maybe

and there are no said too that there are some issues that trump raised. There are important that liberals have failed to raise, for example, obviously, immigration, the effective free trade on whole section the american society? These are things that he was right to point out and he deserves credit for point those things out, but that cannot legitimate visualize the way he conducted himself. In office his attempt to undermine democracy, which places him uniquely as the most destructive president in american history, and I see that as a conservative No conservative wants to destroy the institutions of liberal democracy or ones too. impugn, the entire system as a fraud andrew I,

You- and I were I'm really good- I'm glad we have the strong critique of tromp on the shore. There is real important, particularly from your position and francis, and I were both very concerned as outside observers about what happened in january. The second. We were unquestionably critical of those events. What do you say to the council points and I think there are two counterpoint to you're saying the first is yes. Donald trump was a radically transformational candidate, but the reason people voted for him was that they felt that the status quo is not working and the republican party such as it was this. This hold the chokehold that the two parties had without offering actual genuine change that people were concerned about. That is why tromp was elected, and so in attempting to deliver some of that radical change, she was being democratic first point and the second point you know, I agree with you that I think sending or encouraging people or even allowing people to be in a position to storm the capital in the way that they did was attempting to interfere with the democratic process.

this completely wrong. What about the banning of the hunter Biden story from being shed on the big check platforms was then not election interference. That had I mean the studies show that it has an impact on on people's voting preferences. For example, there is a clear and drawing a distinction between stories. Let me first of all I agree. that was a disgraceful act. The idea that it was also function of russian, I'll just was also bullshit. I did not by a lot of the russian both the russian conspiracy bullshit. They went on for long time and you can check my I could and then I was always sceptical about that on, but they're not people. There is nothing that can be equated with it. to undermine knowingly, because now we know that every single person around and told him he lost his election. He still went on to attempt to increase, If you didn't anyway, succeeded destabilizing

country massively, and would have welcomed that destabilization is no restraining instinct in donald trump. He would destroy anything rather can see you. wrong. He is manifestly going around the country still insisting not only he won the election, but he wanted by a landslide here try to get a political party to invalidate the results of Adam got a collection. This is this is so far outside anything, acceptable that it must be forbidden. Him he's staying on american history and only american constitution? Listen to him He's out of his mind, clearly someone like that. In a position of power, we were lucky to get away with it before you, In fact, we were not because he merely destroy the whole system can be and should be, in my view, a great critic of the way that

rural, its neo liberal, is right and left forgot lot of human beings in our society and it policies and refused to correct and that people. You can say that somebody issues a trump ism represents should be represented, and I think that the republican body is moving in that direction. Can't get around this crazy person. when individual humans do affect history, and I do he's the unit most uniquely dangerous person who arrived in american politics in my lifetime by easily K k. Do you believe in spring cleaning? Yes, but only when my wife does. It also meant

who clean executed for not being real men, which is good as well for those men who are living in the twenty first century, man skaters an incredible off a few men, skate other global leaders, immense below the waste grooming and have for ever change, glooming going with their amazing performance pact which four point: zero inside this cab bundle you'll find the lawnmower four point: oh trimmer weed, whacking, ear and nose. Hair trimmer crop preserve a bull, deodorant, crump, revive a toner performance, boxer brief and a travel bag to hold your goodies, in trimmer- is designed to trim inhale loose skin. Although you where both small new, a couple of boris Johnson's, treat them with respect and benefit from their proprietary skin site. Take note complete your grooming game. This spring with the new refine cologne signature sent by man scaped this stuff is legit.

Have you smelling like royalty, the good kind, not prince andrew twenty percent of and free shipping, with the code trigger twenty landscape dot com that twenty percent of I'm free shipping with the code trigger twenty men scapegoat com, it's time to pull out all your road hygiene habits and upgrade your life. And what would you say to that This is my view on trump. That trump is a system of certain. Oh sorry, sir you're, a symptom of the fact that the system no longer works for the average american voter. There are huge swathes of people in america who look at left and right and go this, isn't working you're not going to help me, you don't represent me. You represent the interests of big bass, and corporations and whoever I vote for I'm gonna wind up in the same position so doesn't matter. If I vote for the crazy radical even if the system goes to pop, I'm going to still be

in the exact same place, yet except you'll notice. That Biden, for example, as largely adopted most of the trade policies that trump pursued Biden has pulled out of afghanistan, something that job promised, but never did. There are continuities here, because policy issues have shifted, and you'll see republicans themselves actually prepared to engage. in some minimal redistribution. So the controls on on trade and It has made a difference these and the trunk deserves credit. I'm not gonna deny this, for bringing those issues to the fore but character. Logically, he is incapable and proved himself and cable. To be president of a democratic society. He just is incapable of it, I would let them don't. You know don't know you had. I noticed this person. Is I mean it? Aren't you

I am ashamed to be a country. We have this persons present its massive embarrassment, I would say as well that those things I disagree We tromp absolutely, and I saw ultimately he was a very toxic individual and the divisiveness that he brought to america was was dangerous, but I also look at the system, the created him and blame the system, and I blame the lift, above all for saying that they represent people and represent working class people, whilst dig down, if I'm being honest and I'm gonna use industrial language, not giving a flying shit about them and its. Therefore, they think carefully they great deal of responsibility for this, and also in the media in obscure, ring and delighted the real questions of people had. I agree with you totally, but I don't believe the whole system is

he's finished. I do think that in America there are plenty of ways in which this can be achieved, through democratic election. We see, for example, all over america school board elections in which some of the crew easiest indoctrination of being upheld he's being reigned backing by ordinary people using democracy. We can have an election in mid term elections very soon, which will probably show I think republican landslide in both houses sing back into some correction. I do not believe that a system that, as has been through rocky patches but has evolved over two hundred years, is to be junk because we fear moment where our leaders have been out of sync with what most people want. That is to be expected in any country in periods of time. Trunk deserves credit for breaking down but now we have to move forward with our system fighter Republican who could represent them? and not be insane and hostages. very democratic system,

and a democrat. You can possibly be what Biden said he was gonna, be, which is take the take the country back to the centre and I think the central america is, there still is quiet, but the party that can occupy it first is gonna win big. That's right, you're and look. We want actually planning to spend a huge amount of time talking about from, but it comes back a little bit to the conversation we were having about journalism, because another perhaps point that I would agree with francis, where tromp was a bit of a symptom is, he was really the only guy who could survive what journalists do to republican leaders when they run for office, which is she's the only guy who could survive being, called the races to sex is the home of urban all those things and still win, because Everybody else just gets labelled as a nazi and they never recover an undue,

I was again one of the the points that I thought was was accurate about trump is, I thought he was a very toxic personality and you could see it enough and we were actually sitting in just two quick, adding that were sitting round the studio on youtube. We watch you something on youtube and without us knowing the next village came on and it was like a compilation of trump put downs I think a lot of people watching it would like enjoying the, but it was all about him like going go back to mummy or something, and he just was very, very dark, it was dark. I dont question that at all I just wonder whether a more moderate and was able to to break through the the charcoal. The deliberate mainstream media have unlike decide whether you're an evil bigger. Nor will it all- Depends where people, by that description and over over won't. Unfortunately, trump in some ways was not enough. He was charged with words

Look at someone like lend young king republican governor of genuine. Action. No, he wasn't. You can call in these things, but give them ammunition, fact is evidence that, under the eye of the what trump do in so many ways was, was with give credence to the left look there, a bunch erases, look. He hates prince look. He says all these things it. The fight against This was, in my view, crippled by the fact that he was against. It. Because he seems a legitimate. Every single leftwing idea of what a right wing person was it. you can have more moderate conservatives, come forward and say, for example, yes I'll give you one simple example: transgender people exist. They deserve absolute civil rights, they already have them actually and the boss dog. We need to respect

transgender people, but we shouldn't at the same time forget that they are biological differences in sport. Some areas, a few that makes a difference sports. and we should let we should be extremely careful having children make lifelong decisions about whether there a boy or a girl before they even hit puberty, Now you, you are more credible. I believe, if you can make those nuance distinctions defend trans rights, but engage some of the difficult questions that they bring, Then, if you just become this, person who says that all these trends, people just mentally ill, making shit up, there's nothing there. It's bullshit and I think,

That is the new ones. Message is actually has more traction in the country large because I dont think most people hate transport corridor. Eight is ridiculous, don't come! the boy but didn't come to transmit and, generally speaking, they support the rights of trans people have issues with the kids being told the age of three: can choose to be a boy or a girl or both or neither was something else entirely like a valiant, this is insane and and and its being pushed back and it should be pushed back and a lot of us within the gay. Community, I won't use that term elsie beating you, I plus plus, because it's it's bullshit. It is, they did We'll call my elder view person there. Why do you say that wiser bullshit, because

because the vessel no one, can be and algae bt q person. Literally I mean you can't be lesbian and gay and trends and the cruel whatever. Secondly, there is no community as such even with gays and lesbians. I'm talking you from problems down which is about his gaze. You can get. Yes, lesbians, gay men lived happily alongside each other, but where the oil water can be mixed up together either they have complete every ways of life, verities subcultures huge different problems, because one Almost all men here with you, fact of being a man quadruple, which means you try getting a longstanding monogamous relationship, limited human straightened out manager when very good, when you, when you have other men in the relationship, good luck, similarly there,

big std outbreaks, and unless they are not worried about them, getting multiplex right now, because they a completely different way of life and trends. The people are completely different, said altogether the the transgender experience could not be more different than the gay experience. one simple illustration of this when you Ok boy, you grow up seems to be one of the most important things you need to do is to own the fact that you are a boy. You are a man and you can love and that's crucial if you are trans get. The important thing is disowning that you are a man or a boy And if you give the same message, gay boys as france boys, your actual, engaging in some horrible conduct. Isn't there if you for gauges, The last thing you want to say to a gay boy, for example, is you know, maybe you're a girl when you hear it that way, doesn't it?

Does it make you feel I may I will never forget a christmas. I was at my grandparents and mine Yeah one went abroad. I was eight, he was kind of four use bashing truck around and I was reading a book in my grandmother, looks the two boys and Look at my mother and she said well pointing to my brother? Well, at least now you have a real boy, and that is roughly what some of these trends activists are effectively telling young gable, This is why something transit trans away- the gay- yes, yes and its soul- true because when I was a teacher and towards the end of my of my stint as a teacher, my little the last time I taught in a school was twenty twenty and I'd been teaching at this point for around well about twelve years. and kids now started to identify, as you know, trans or gender food. It such an amendment

one boy and I got informed that he's he's seeing himself as trans and I started teaching him and I'll go. Oh, no, you know you're, just gay and you just having to come to terms That's that's what it was, which is why France's is never taught in the school again yeah exactly that was not enough, but. very worrying its incredibly one, because children of honourable baby stall. That's why they're safeguarding some prices. Why we protect them, but especially a child who is becoming aware of their own sexuality, which is incredibly difficult and painful for everybody adolescence

also for everyone, and yet now we ve got this extra thing on top yeah, it's it's bewildering for kids, I think, and they both have been told they call themselves. Basically anything you can invent a million different challenges for yourself. I think it's particularly tough on gay children, myself, and I cannot understand why gay organizations are not concerned about this, can't even acknowledge that there is a trade off. Here are eighty percent of kids with gender disorient. We find out end up gay. Puberty itself is itself a real affirmation of your actual biological sex. I I remember, being a little worried, as was a gay boy. I did not. I was a nerd, I was a swat. Ah, I definitely like contact sports. They forced me to play rugby. I really did not like it and

it was like seven I lost my shit hold on. I was gonna say you were saying how gay kids are the most affected by all of it. Yeah I was gonna, say something else. Sorry, it's all good! You modify your different question, and if it comes back, no, I don't mind will recover covered. So what is one of one of the things you are talking about is actually a concern of mine. Is ass, you start to see this so called algae bt q, I plus plus minus uptown, left right whatever it is community start to get involved and things that would concern a lot of people. We ve seen images of drag shows, for which no one had a problem with in the last ten years now start to be performed to choose.

John, like Why I

We had a show here in the: u k called the family sexual, which involved full frontal, nudity targeted at children from the age of five upwards and its and other come on top of that nature within that, and one of the things are starting to see. Now I think, from some of the research I've shown is acceptance for sexual minorities going down, including among young people, now to me for someone like you not only because of your psychological, because you were at the forefront of it's amazing- marriage, equal marriage for sexual minorities, You gotta be concerned about this donny I bid concerned and

And I am also worried that the atmosphere that these activists create terrorize gay people into accepting every single, crazy thing look, I take the view MR slave on south park, which is that do whatever you want, but don't you in front of children is it. Is that so hard? Is it really so hard and I'm not in favour of pulling anybody's sexual activity. King. So whatever under some kind of prohibition, but I dont think is unreasonable to say: let's not expose children to it and to be honest with you the vast majority of gay people feel the same way. We do. I feel like we're being grotesquely misrepresented I algae bt. Why? A plus plus organizations who were sent you at this point

incapable of doing anything but react tribal ie to any criticisms of any aspect of the culture of minority sexuality is low and culture sandra sexuality, but is not a year. I mean I. I know I love you. Try creates surrounded by the year as it, so they like carpenter, ants and the friends of Mine- and you know The best ones are totally not risque in sacramento terms at all. They like clowns, they like a pansy Indeed, I mean we take children abandoned minds to which are essentially drag shows Listen want some aspect, musical drag shows and we don't think its abuse in so this a fine line here. You know you can have a fine. completely family friendly, drag queen. Who can be funny you can engage just like a pantomime day, more file

and then you have the more the more less talented. Frankly. More vulgar endless sexual life versions and again I took I've too. I took my seven year old and five year old, niece and nephew to see one of these drag queens a few years ago. She she didn't, they loved it. It's hilarious there was no sexuality. Unless you saw the back of this guy's dress, which was full of black hair, a meal which deliver we don't he's gonna send up trackways on so it again its company. It is, and I wish the more spousal ones push back again. Some of us. Do you know when rupaul? In a huge I mean? I don't think it

I don't think drag queens of the great terrible fret people saying they are is what I would say. I do think that public authorities, public schools, telling children that they can pick which sexually are is infinitely more concerning. Oh, I agree with the other, but the thing is, though- and I think you will appreciate this- the general public are not as into these issues and their. Nor, as involved in the details in the new and susan. Whatever I'm gonna, ask you quite an unpleasant and lay my question about it, which is If I am apparent which I now I am of a child and I'm looking at this without delving deeply- to her undergoing, does these dry queens and then try queens under? Does a spectrum and some of them do this and you you, just look out and go why, as you said yourself, children being social shown sexually material right where is this coming from. In your opinion, why are people doing this at all?

Well, I think there was a genuine good faith idea that that the dry queens alike, The children relate to them in that way and that having somebody red in the library which I think is where the stuff started to you funny. Outfits might actually be a completely banal, and rather benign thing, but some have exploited and and I think also this kind, sense of algae bt q, I plus plus, whatever, has created a culture which is now something that people are saying they can choose so so the majority it turns out the biggest a proportion of the people calling themselves eligibility. Q, I plus plus in america, a straight people, mainly straight women calling themselves bisexual some forty percent in one poll, people identifying is eligible to queue up straight, so it's become

this kind of all purpose: trendy a catch all, and so and there were some lefty liberal parents want their kids to be part of the algae beating you I because at least ass, no straight I mean look, I'm not defending this occurred, defended. I think it's whacked, but you know parents have control. the children if they wanna taken there if it some kid is taken to sexually fleet things? They haven't explicitly had consent for from their parents. I think it's an outrage, but I do think most likely, not like that. When we went to the thing that we're not china pin it on, you would just trying to have a conversation, because the reason is that, you see- and you will know this because your online and you see the discourse on the way it moves. There is this concern, particularly on the right this whole group

a conversation which I find kind of like difficult, and I don't get what's going on exactly, but there is a growing concern that, as part of this, increasing tolerance were now tolerating things that, just frankly, shouldn't be tolerated. I think vince would completely the main concern on. But there is a distinction between that concern and say that any teacher that teaches the cylinders is attempting to sexually abused your child, That seems to be to be a reach that is ugly you cooling, someone Pedophile is a bit like calling them a racist. It's something you can't defend yourself against. It is a totally totalitarian tactic. I think, if you, if you don't think people should be called racist because they have different views on you which had legitimate views. Then you shouldn't be calling people haven't you. from view than you do on on the question of sexual minorities to be a pedophile. The first word out of your your mouth.

and look. There is a long history of gay people being called pedophiles and being equated with and we have it in in in and you do not long ago, the seventies there was an attempt to get all gaiety genocide which would in california and the politician that actually did most to prevent that coming into force was The briefing initiative was given ronald reagan. Who said? No, you make a distinction, you just people by the way they teach you know who they are If there is, if there is some abuses, there is abuse in schools. We notice but it's not always associated with. We gave you and it shouldn't be associated with a particular kind of curriculum. I think it's cheap and ugly, and I think we can avoid it, but you can and still make the case. Let us keep children out of politics. I to let them see the world for what they leave them, the fuck alone, with her let them grow up.

Getting their heads about this that the other arm in the I would say you can do that. You can bring up your kids his job as witnesses. You can do whatever you want, but in the public sphere, public authorities, teaching, kids things that are extremely dubious for political motives and and I'm sorry, it's a little wishy washy, I don't mean to be wishy washy. I mean to be fair, andrew. It's not it's a really, really really important point and thanking supply networks, no one's. Do you have a website or do you plan to have a website? Because if you do then ease Dna is a company for you, dns is the perfect domain name, registrar provider and web host. For you, they have a track record of standing up for their climbs, whether it be cancelled culture, the platform, tanks or overzealous government agencies? He knows about that. So will you in a second easy dna,

have rock solid network infrastructure and fantastic customer support. Viewing you'll corner no matter what the world throws at you. Unless it's your ex girlfriend, in which case you're on your own, he now had that movie domains and websites over too easy dns right now. All you ve got to do is go to easy dns. Don't come forward flash triggered, that's easy. Dns don't come forward last triggered use our promo code, which is also triggered and get fifty plus off. The initial purchase sign up for their newsletter access of easy, which told you everything you need to know about technology, privacy and censorship. I think the problem is andrew. I think we're political, sizing everything, and this is the inevitable result of what happens when you, let's assize sexuality and sex. Yeah and you some point when

Gay people had no very few civil rights and is subject to a great deal of persecution on. Yes, you have to be political gets in the great equality, but the point of that politics was to let go of politics afterwards. with the get on with our lives. Once you have formal civil equality, I think you should let the world evolve in its own way without trying to coerce it, indoctrinated move it in every which way. That's why I consider myself. the conservative, any people. When I see people understand what I mean by that, I do have a book called the conservatives all which is available, and it is my attempt kind of explain exactly where I think that conservative temperament belongs and it is, it is present In in conservatives in britain and american, but currently it's it's an eclipse, two more radical and and a revolutionary movements, I think.

And the problem is as well when you politicize you create lot. We ve touched on before this idea of community. gay community thinks is no little came, have a variety of difficult of different political opinions left right centre, and so they should there individuals, you can't just put them on this under this umbrella. This is part of my problem with them. It is the left told me. You can't exist. would you be a homosexual and even god, how can you be homosexual and adopt a conservative colleagues? The thing about gaze, especially, is the You're born randomly across every country, so we can Have lots of gays in red states and dates as many gays being born in Oklahoma. There are new york state per capita, so. Of course, you gonna have the most diverse political community, a third of gays voted for trump.

Many of us, many of the most important homosexuals in american history have been on the right. Of course, this is the who, as someone rather crudely. Put to me what makes you hard has nothing to do with what your politics are indicative. Completely involuntary thing. Where'd, you pause, you have to be constructed. Of course you you teach you to hear the algae The community is offended by this we met. You were just the people, I mean we're asking for. You live cosmonaut affairs. We voted by David, a bell. We loved age, a bell. If you look, the people fighting back again, some of this crap Glenn greenwood bar your face. All these people, men disproportionately gay people, are fighting back again this because- and this is part of what the gay tradition is- we wouldn't over the senses, we, whenever the schools we win, telling people what to do with their lives. Our message for so long with do what you want to do:

just leave us alone. Let us do what we want to do on sunday, who footing under the law. That's all the ideas, Its turns you returned uncle censoring scolding, humorless. Movement is so depressing at it so violates Our traditions violate also a culture which is one of celebration of variety of the. The treasure, the eccentric. The support of the outsider the view the love of articles of fur and change- and I tell you it's still here- not to offend you when I went to her good drag so when you ve been honest every week as a sort of

andrew when all offending by drag shows? No, I gotta get to you that if you wish to community as we used to perform a drag people- wouldn't I ran should do dragged chose to really talking about this year. I beg of you. If they have not lost, should its noise policy, so it they started out share my view is a homo. Is there I assume everyone's animal friendly unless proven? Otherwise, in my view, as a member of minority, is that I do not get off every day wondering who eighty I get every day, seeing you love me and who I can be with- and how I can best live my life, and there are many, many more of us out there and you boy, you you're, not you truth is that when you do what I've done, the most the most vicious hostility, comes from the gay left. I have

I first book a marriage. Equality was picketed by lesbian adventures. I've had drinks showed me. I've been calling the anti christ. My second point was reviewed inside of you hate game annual love this book. The attempted you did a, Nine leftist gaze is so well organised and well oiled it contain a huge amount look. What happened in bari, wise from you is that you, particularly vulnerable to attack. So that's how they enforce the orthodox people should not believe the gaze, lesbians, nice upon the same community, but that they do have an incredibly variety of views, they disagree each other and conversation privately, for example, about getting kids to change their sex among gay men. It is, is, it is not

people these people are people base. We ve got lots of gay friends here that we talked about this men and women. None of them are happy about this whole thing that about what's going on. So I suppose that begs the question than andrew. How do we get to a position where we, go to what you are talking about, which is let us be who we are and do no damage to children and leave everybody the fuck alone? How do we get to that position? One way, I think, is to remind people of history and geography when certain elements are screaming that they need this, that in the other, and they want to push boundaries further and further and further my responses to say: have you ever read any history. do you have any idea of what it still like to be gay, for example, in the vast majority of countries or on the earth from the palestinian authorities,

to russia to IRAN. Ah do you have any idea where we ve come in the nineteen fifties? Ten, if thousand gay men were fired from the federal government. In a purge of all homosexuals, the government had more surveillance on all of us in the nation's capital. The police had a list of a one who had ever had any homosexual connections, people will feel committing suicide upon being purchased from the feds. It was illegal people. Would people were being arrested. We, if you are a gay person, ask yourself: is there any other time and place you would ever have wanted to live, except for now in the west? And the answer is no, so can we please get some perspective please see that we are actually where we always wanted to be that we win now have the quality. We long sought a pretext.

this would be amazed at what we ve done the eye here, that we should further. Hurrah co, earth and lecture the home. World, and how they have to do even more to acknowledge our existence, is a form of narcissism. That is self defeating. It's a historical and it's an insult. The vast majority of gay people, the wolf but who also affected It is the moon extremists in the last in the west. Push things like. Everyone is trends and less proven otherwise war or you don't think that that is being forecast in russian. You don't think that the extremes are being used to actually heard gay people in other countries who are under much even

Greater pressure than we are, I find it. I found it morally and serious to be honest with you and a luxury belief in oh, I grew up in my twenty is watching thousands. Hundreds of thousands of my peers die agonizing, difficult death. We ensure that we saw things that I hope no one has to say, and the idea that today someone Miss changes you and your traumatized insult. Those of us who actually went through real aid, and I am incredibly depressed by younger generation. It does not even acknowledge that contrast and and

to be honest, fed up with it. Andrew I've got a tremendous amount of sympathy for your position, because my family, a south american I have. There is a saying in my family and in love policies as they are known And there is a saying in my family whereby the police's there are the gay or their ugly write his we ve got a lot of gay men in my family. I added a cousin hoop, away from me, when I was nine years old and this cousin of mine. we never said he was is actually upset me now talking about it when he died. we they said that he had thrown cancer, because I didn't want to say to the family that he died of aids and I stole and even as a kid I remember, being angry, because I felt that when he died died of shame, because it can even be honest about his death

so I've always had a tremendous amount of sympathy for the gave movement gay pride and its one the things it gets me really angry, because, I do see how cool promotes have just jumped on this movement and corrupted it, and at the same time you know that they don't care, because in the Middle east that they draw you know the rainbow flag, some from their logos? You know the fee for don't care. Because I hold the world cup in qatar, and you just think you know. That's disgusting is utterly disgusting here I don't want you anyway. How do what you just said? I do remember in my adult lifetime that we were frustrated, that no cooperation whenever touch so be careful what you asked for on, and I think, but I you know,

part of what has sustained gay people is, are economic power and insofar as our ability to buy and sell things can can can help me? great us into the community than I I don't have a huge issue with. I agree with you that the idea that anything but after we soon at all on, the part of the legal provisions is ludicrous they're more enthusiastic than many of us. These laplante flags, I mean the fleas. Can you stopped I have no idea what all the need we had some include a rainbow flag which was excruciating enough, but even who played it was it it was a metaphor. Putting everyone we won't defending green gaze white gaze and apple games where it was a rainbow ryan metaphor. Now he put his brow in black stripe in a direction brown and black people, they have pink and blue and it represents as people it looks like a lick resort and again and again who who determine,

who the hell decided? We will have this new flag, I didn't know the vote it's done by these organizations and and they are captured by these activists of his activists- have been captured by political theory and hard pushed back, especially when you travel eyes. You know when you were a slogan areas, some of the something hostile you perceive as hostile, even though it might just be counter argument. Your rags close and you understand that dynamic can occur. But I agree with you: more of us need to speak up. Many of us are and I think I ve heard sought, for example, is a fantastic lesbian, so I'm not totally only because I think I think we are going to take our our identity, but I don't want to take a movement back as long as I'm concerned. The movement is done. We want our core rights, our job,

now is to ask ourselves what lies: do you wanna live? How do we, as gay people, contribute to our society? How can we recognise the great people that were gay in the past? These things positive, constructive, contributed thing, not this constant yelling people have already said: yes Did you cannot take yes for an answer and. and we are in a much better place and look. I've lived, I'm not that old, but I've lived through this extraordinary change. Does it make me depressed? I think we're going what's right now, but I know how much further forward, When are we one against? Well, they don't understand. We didn't we marriage equality by say, if you don't supporters, your you're We actually made the arguments I went up there. I went under how people I would churches and would have fundamentalists. Positions. I went to catholic universities are anywhere in what he asked me to make an argument respectfully.

You did that for a couple of decades and we persuaded the middle and we want and we should remember how we did that we did do. We did not do that by hating on people. We did that by assuming good faith and at fault that also the other thing about this. Is that if you really secures a gay person you're not constantly waging war on the world of everybody who might not be totally ok with you, you wanna go it's they fundamentally is, each year, the young, the activists who actually believe that they have some duties do something that they cannot do because already done nl k envy We will always what I wanna be the martin luther king jr of my generation. Well, sorry, but it's gone. The similar rights is finished here too late. and you can invent other ways in which you think you're changing the world, but at this point you're not just coercing other people, so let it go and get on with your life.

What a beautiful message andrew I'm so glad we had you on the show to talk about this aspect, the things because it's not it's, not a position. Here very often, I just think that is such a powerful way of looking at the world, not only in terms of the political issues that we talk about, but actually individual level in it. It doesn't apply just to gay people. That applies to all of us. Like you know the book I've just written called golden immigrants love letter to the west. This is seize point I'm trying to make the people that you ve got the this is the best place ever to be alive and all we spend our time doing is complaining about terrible everything is, is, is its mind boggling, but some glad we tried yon is such a pleasure. Talking to you, as you know, the last question we always ask is: what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that you think we really should be. it's a very good question. I've been trying to think of it since we started asking

either way the secrets that we brave paid? Well, I'm sorry nights jogging, everybody. Everybody knows. I mean I was immediately thing. I wanna be today because this has been there anyway, so lies or later they are going to have a rainbow flag on the cover of the thumb. Now, yes, there is. This is something that he will not talk about, that. There is a method that mean epidemic among game that is killing large numbers of gave him. Ah, it is the most hideous drugs it is taking people's lives, the waste away. It is rampant. No one talks about it. Certainly the gay press barely talked about it. It's implicated,

a whole bunch of things that you can see. A need, for example, is the real story of Matthew shepherd not that he was assaulted by two complete redneck strangest of haiti gaze he was assaulted by his own boyfriend, who was on meth for five days? That makes much more in such situations and then these other things any end. But the ability and the need to suppress this reality, because dirty laundry, because he's telling the truth about problems that we have is not helping game and either. And I really would like to see the street is with seriousness it deserves. and a wiser happening. I have not heard about this intelligent if you have, for you, have well, maybe a more informed and then I am but wiser happening wisest specifically in the gay community, it's a good question because it other communities, for example in america, is very much a phone working class white rural epidemic as well on its way.

it's used in conjunction with sets its apparently a fantastic silver. Experience temporarily when you're on this thing. You feel great and powerful and all the rest of it. You have consecutive days on end and and people talk about that experience as super wonderful and they can't go back to having sex without it. I eat I've just seen it destroy. People friends and and And- and it goes on, everyone acknowledges it privately. It reminds me of the early days of aids in which people refused to actually acknowledge, because they were scared that the facts of the matter would alienate people from gay people. Well, we are alienating ourselves, we are committing suicide in a way, is the community and you can barely,

see a word written about it on and- and I think again is partly the media's. Attempts well meant that howard cowardly, not. You were dirty laundry about minorities when, in fact, that the country needs to be added in order to help minorities in order have minorities, help themselves on so, for example, denying that in america that the terrible toll of violence on black people is something that is a function of white supremacy when it is clearly a function of of criminals. Killing them is important. Thing to remember is infinitely more black. Americans are killed by civilians, women by cops, and yet we barely mention the former. We obsess on the latter. I am not saying that killing by cos

is something we should not be concerned about should, but the spectacles is all skewed. Similarly, in terms of where gay people are instead of talking about the hatred other people have for us, which they generally doubt that for a few nutters. Ah, let's talk about how we can take care of ourselves. What issues of self esteem are still buried within us, the things that that makes it preferable to go on these drug benders, then just get on with your life building a relationship was setting up a home or or getting a productive career going, and it happens to be a very potent drug too, which seems to hook people very quickly and be incredibly hard to recover from and it has taken. A real toll is still going on as you thank you for for bringing that up. I that's not an issue that we've heard anyone else theresa. We really appreciate that. We're going to ask you a couple of questions from our local supporters. The only

we'll will get to see, but for now thank you so much for joining us. I read the weekly dish every week as a monday. It comes in Monday. I think afternoon. My time I really enjoy it recommend people check it out. Where else should people find you on the I oh well, the wiki, the most on twitter sally dish, I have a book, a collection of my essays of the last thirty years and came out in the u s last year, called out on a limb wish traces. My writing. The last thirty years from the first arguments, the marriage equality through my arguments against trans extremism circuits it but also obama, the entire political, the world, I'm not, I don't want. You would think that I'm just a gauger list. I do right about this topic, but not all right. There are not primarily, I really in the thick of american political, cultural and religious discussion, so

about a limb, gives you a sensitive of of who. I am aware. I've been on amazon andrew, thank you. So much for coming on the show is Ben and action the pleasure I dont know golf course. Wash your questions for all articles and thank you for everyone wants you. We hope. Even join, this episode has been absolutely brilliant. If you wanna watch episodes thereof, on wednesday and sundays, always coming out of seven p m uk time, although shows on those friday and saturday, and for those of you who know you're trigonometry on the go it's over available as upon cost, take care, and see you soon guys I am now told by court. I am not attracted some time on a big, I'm

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