Are you tired of slow internet speeds? Ultra home internet has arrived, get fast, reliable, home internet all on the nation's largest five g network visit ultra home internet dot com to learn more stop the buffering and start the binging with ultra home internet five db requires a capable device within an appropriate coverage area. Actual availability, speed and coverage may vary the hello and welcome to trigonometry on sciences, pasta, In addition- and this is a show for you, if you want on conversations with fascinating paper- a brilliant guest today is a social psychologist, doktor Dena macmillan welcome to trigonometry. Thank you. Thank you for having It it's a great pleasure to have you on a list For anyone who is not familiar with you, a lot of people will be, but someone be. Who are you well you were you on what has been the journey. The leads you through life sitting here talking to us, while

studied social psychology at stanford university. by working in this field and examining the world through that lands which is going to be very relevant to the conversation we're going out at any god. Yes, it is, you are the originally from the united states. You live in Australia. Now you ve worked in a few different disciplines. You ve worked with abuse. Victims, tell us a little bit about that may be before we get into some other stuff. I worked. I still do work in domestic violence. I have one of the only prevention programmes available in the world is on masking the abuser? I actually teach the tactics used by abuse. it during the earliest grooming phases of the relationship and because of covered and strict restrictions here in melbourne. During that time, I d added to have a podcast where I took all my information and put it on a par cast, so its call also

called on masking the abuser in its on all of the platforms. While I mean that sounds incredibly helpful, incredibly valuable in because a lot of the time people are aware, the fact are they being groomed? So what are these early signs? Dana there's somebody can be aware of when they getting into this type of relationship while the one thing I usually say, if I have a little sound bite, is that look out for too much too soon, one of the biggest and most reliable indicators of a potentially abusive relationship is speed that they start from the very beginning. Talking about the future. You're too. Many compliments to many gives too much discussion about how we're going to live. Our lives were kind of kids were going to happen. and it's too soon in the relationship you barely know each other and by

it was too soon in the relationship. What are we talking about weeks months, daisy things? Sometimes some of these things show up at the very earliest stages. Like someone joking on the first day in all, we have beautiful children or set our introducing you, after the second data's as their girlfriend or jokingly all this is my future wife. That kind of thing talking about we should take holidays together, we should by house. Always you were with me. We could have such wonderful lives together that you have to be very careful, it sounds like a dream. Come true, but it's really a nightmare so there's those initial, so that's the first right flood and what our other red flags on this particular journey. Well, the same time, they're trying to pull you. And talk about your life together. You noticed that something's wrong, there's a lot of control that goes on there,

There will be snipes criticism, contempt for your beliefs, so it's like much of one and then too much of the other, and it starts right away. It starts from the very earliest days it's really interesting. I recommend the people who are interested in that check out your work on that side of things tell us a little bit about some of the other areas you ve been working on as well, because I think they're, probably the main thing we wanted to talk with you about today. well. I also looking at what happened during this covered period. Was the violent protests and the divisiveness in the rhetoric that were hearing, I decided to put together a program called healing the risk

because, as a social psychologist, we learn a lot about the brain, how we learn how our influence, but we also learned flow on effects, and I was looking at the the narrative and the focus and the tactics being used in. anti racism programmes, and it was very to me from the beginning that they would have the exact opposite impact that their likely to increase racial divisions. So I decided to put together a program called healing the rift to talk about bias because a lot of what is being called. Racism is actually racial. Bias based on exposure based on information and I'm not? biased, doesn't count. It does, but it's much more.

Easily remedied, then making a conscious choice to disrespect or hate people who are other races, dinner. There's a couple of things. I want to unpack there. So, let's start with the first one I'll come back to, if the second one, the first one being- and you know to me, was also self evident that this would be the consequences But how did you know as a social psychologists that this so called anti racism training would actually increase racial tension? Will I knew- and it's interesting because I told my listeners, for my part. has series and I'm going to tell your audience now- the same tax I was seeing abusers used to law, or in new partners and taken over their lives and lead them astray. I was social movements do the same thing so once you recognise the tactics of not just influence but manipulation, gas

lighting once you know those you can apply, any wearing your life not just to romantic relationships, and I was the social movements use same manipulative, even abusive tactics. To get their message across. Like what like, what dinner, can you give us some examples of of some of the things that were being done, but that set off the alarm bells for you? Well, one of the simplest examples is having. testers, go past restaurants where people are sitting outside and eating and forcing them Do the black power salute in order not to be harassed by the protesters and as a student story and as a former military brat who went to high school in germany, I recognise that sort of

methodology is something didn't the nazis used to do. They used to force people to give the nazi salute. So I looked at that and I thought you know having a slogan, is now at the same as having a policy. No black wise matter yeah. Well, they do- and I also wanted to quickly explain to your british arguments why that such a big deal, I'm in the states there there, is sometimes among them we buy us law enforcement of the use of a term in age. I, whenever blacks are involved in a crime And that means no humans involved and If you study the judicial system, you'll, see a lotta disparity between what happens white person who commits a crime and what happens to a black person who commits a crime,

so that is where the impetus came. Four of you know a movement like black lives matter, but they took a slogan and an issue and everything they did made. It worse, so you are saying everything they did made it worse. Can you give us some examples? Please and violent protests having two hundred and forty five violent protests, often taking place in black communities, so encouraging people, Well, who are frustrated with their lives? First of all, to look outward for the problem: let's blame it all on the police. spurn down city hall, let's burned down that the stores, let's loot, the stores and our neighborhoods. How in the world is that going to make people less racist billions of dollars of damage? How in the world is that going to make people? S right

This is a good point. Dana their counter argument would be look. You know we ve tried peaceful process before this hasn't happened. We need to do extreme measures in order for our aims to be fulfilled. Yes, but it's the same, you can not threaten people to accept you and I have also as someone who works with relation it's not just abusive ones, but healthy ones too. I've never seen anything work if the effort is only on one side, So now we have a movement of teaching whites they're. All of your racist. All of you are wrong, being white equals being a white supremacist with no effort expected on. Black community to look at what are we doing that? leading us to these. What results is there anything we can do to improve theirs? not a lot of emphasis on there and that

It's always a problem, and I want to talk about your solutions and your approaches in the second, but you mentioned the difference between racism and racial bias. Can you break that down for us and our audience, because that is a distinction that is rarely made. Well, it's wearily maiden it's funny because I'm putting together some short youtube videos and my first one is going to be called Why you're not a racist and reason is because they switched the definition racism used to be a conscious choice. Where are you said. My race is superior, all other raises are inferior. I disrespect I dislike I even mean heart, to those other groups. Now they switched to. If you have it certain tone of scan- you absolutely must be racist. Now that doesnt mean there is an racial bias, we have

a lot of messages, social messages built into our environment, that show black one way. Whites another way and that can lead to bias bias is just oh, a predisposition, positive or negative against a person or grew so eight. You can be I'll. Give you an example over this covered period, For some reason, I've been meeting all these wonderful women named carol or carolyn. So I recently had an interview with a woman whose riding a chapter in a book I've been asked to write a chapter in, and her name is kara. So I apologise to her because I was positively predisposed towards her. And before she said a word, because our men, all these wonderful, carols and correlates it can be positive too, but buyers is just having a little

weight of your mind made up before you actually even interact with that person. That's not the same as disrespect dislike and even an an intention to harm, but isn't the problem as well. The fact that you know we're just more biased towards people who look like sound like us, come from similar communities. So then, when you have someone who comes from a different community who looks different is good be more of a challenge for them to get the job. Then somebody you know who who is different to them, so they not feel white racism as well. The fact that they are always having to prove themselves and do a little bit more to secure a position and so on and so forth. Absolutely all of us have bias. Every person has a bias, and it's based on the foundation of bias is a perception of us.

in them. So the solution is pretty simple. We in my programme, we go through a few exercises. You can do to widen the scope of what you consider us. So as long as you see, someone is then you're not going to utilise as much cognitive energy to process that person you'll make your mind more quickly, you of being weigh more heavily any mistakes that they make. But you can stop yourself in the middle. Take a deep breath and reprocess that It's not even that hard and what level do you go to because to me. That sounds like a good argument for, like a nation state, let's say like the like: we can all come to I reckon we can all say. Well, I am an american or we can all come to britain and we can say well we're all british and that way the divisions within the country potentially become less important, because we're all british doesn't matter what our skin color is.

our religion, we're all british, but then the problem is, if we say well we're all british than what sort of legally obliged to head the french. Nobody went right, We start a war island before you know it you in world war, three. So how far do you take this expansion of what you perceive as your tribe? Well, what happened star was once you start to expand, who you see your tribe you're not is inclined to just go to war with people all. It will take us a few nice wrench people to come over, there was some wine. The nice nice little nepalese and all of us sudden they're, not them anymore there. They start to kind of be us and you you're. Talking about you know we decent people against the bad people and it changes now. I'd want military dimension that one of the things that really interesting growing up military is when you live on a base. All of your you don't look like you have you have

lot of intermarriage, where military people go overseas and marry someone from that country, your sign housing? So you know allowed to use your own buyers to determine what neighborhood you live in and it's interesting how many of those divisions start to mitigate once, you live next door to pay Also, that's not you know. The vietnamese people are a real problem. It's you know. Joe I was really there for me when my mom had a heart attack in you know. This person help me to put my cable up and it starts to really change your idea about us and them. So I did I'm an advantage going in. The social psychology based on the fact, then I'm an army, bread- and I think I already know the answer to this question. So what do you think of initiatives. I candy bars training somebody coming in and unleash being a training programme, do agree with that. Would you think it needs to be done more organically? Well,

One of the reasons I developed, my own anti virus program is because a lot of the anti biased part- worms that I was saying were actually anti white programmes and that's not listening thing. I wanted to know no shit blame and shame talking about the fact that we all have biases looking at examples that have nothing to do with skin town. You know Sister, who lives in minneapolis. She did some of the training with me over your summer. And she uses an example of how a bias against a guy who was applying for a job because it shoes warrant, shined and coming from a military family. We were taught that was a sign of disrespect. now talking about somebody. Shoes has absolutely nothing to do with racism. I think I ll of the anti virus programs that we have put the onus, completely

on why to change their thinking without any acknowledgement that for while some of the bias is always going to be there because we're more comparable with people who think like. We do and believe like we do and also lay not really when you're starting on the back for you not necessarily going to be very open to the teachings. I just think that these they start off with within all white people are bad. I would hate that I felt like as a black person. I heard the come forward Because I can't stand bullying, I don't care who it's against and I saw wiped. I never thought this would happen. I saw white people being bullied and I just couldn't stand

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one area in about seven recharge is to take advantage of this credible, often go to man, scape, dot, com and you'll get twenty percent off with free shipping just use our code, which is, of course, true get two zero. That is trigger two zero. That's swings in pursuit of we free shipping at landscapes, dot com and use all code, which is, of course, troika to zero. Your levels will, thank you actually do you think call the problem is doing. It is because we will move forward. Is a society where more tolerant of this in a way to go right now? said, obviously exists and no one would deny that, but is in part of the problem for a lot of black people, especially older black people living in the eightys, the seventies sixties. They ve experts, is real racism, real bigotry that, in a way

in this just on process. Tumor is well absolutely absolutely ended. It's really interesting- I use an example- and I've been talking to some of my colleagues in the states about this, and it's led to some interesting conversations on when I first moved to australia in two thousand and four and I had family come and visit me, but I didn't go back to the states for two years now my family, my dad retired, to tucson arizona, and I thought I'd just it's. Ok, it's kind of unfriendly, but it's ok. I went back after two years in Australia, where people didn't assume. I was dangerous. People didn't assume that they knew everything about me, but when they saw my skin town and I realize how much it changed me beyond my car this awareness and constantly. That's what I mean about the different areas of the brain, the process, information

I wanted to say, and it was a totally different place for me everywhere. When everyone was talking to me, whether I went to a restaurant or a cafe, or you know the czech outline at the chemists everyone was suddenly so friendly and the political situation hadn't changed. The only thing that has changed was me and you can hear you couldn't look at me and say: oh I'm sure she lives in australia. I sound like I just ride yesterday, I still I'm very american they had no way of knowing nonverbal behaviour. My lack of defensiveness made a huge difference in how people interacted with me. So while we're trying to get rid of by us and racism and whatever else negative that we want to get rid of? Let's teach both sides, let's teach people who ve been discriminated against.

how to relax whenever interacting with people have an expectation of acceptance and see what happens? What did not? One of them You you mention and actually was something we were talking about before we started so let's get into it now, because I think it's a crucial piece of this. We are having what I mean could be described as an intellectual discussion here right, not one. I took part in the correct but when I'm involved were having an international discussions, but what you really talking about, and this is something I found very powerful and very interesting about your approach, which is why we were so keen to get you onto the show. Is that you talk essentially about the fact that you cannot convince people of what you were saying. Logically, we like to joke on the show about destroying people with facts.

Logic, and essentially your your your senses or your experiences and your belief, as is a professional that doesn't change minds, because this stuff is taught at the level of emotion, talk to talk to us about that yes well one of the things that I teach, even in the in the seminars that I do for thirteen fourteen year olds. It's just I use palma claims trying brain theory now, there's a little bit of controversy about it as being too simplistic, but I find it to be a wonderful device because it basically divides the brain to three parts and talks about the fact that they process information differently and all at the same time. Now, if you look at and what is really fast fascinating is that most of us are so attached to our new york meal. Cortex are

to actual brain the language part of our brain, but it's only responsible for between five to eight percent of our life decisions, the other The eight to ninety five percent are made using primarily primarily the land brain, which is the emotion centre and our reptilian brain, which is the primal reactive part of our minds. So when people have a belief that motivates than that, they claim to That means that that believe has gone into their limburg, mind and it may even have been fear based or desire based and therefore in the reptilian brain. So if we're going to change their thinking and their attachment, if we're going to dislodge this error and thinking we have to use the same sort of mechanisms that implanted in him.

Better that information in those parts of the brain, so in other words, if feelings don't care by your facts, how do you convince people to listen to what you're saying, which is yes, biased exist, yes, prejudice exist, but saying all why people are evil, isn't the way to solve bias and is actually gonna make it worse, because, let us be honest, he's been going on for quite a while a lot of us have been saying this is bad it doesn't work. This reminds us of sudden bad things, it's only accelerating, so how do you do it? We have to get together and do more than just discuss it. We have to use the influence mechanisms that are the most effective. We have to use storytelling. We have to get role models, we have to use robe

why we have to use music music lyrics, we have to use all of these mechanisms the what I call the three eyes, which is attention, admiration and a claim, So we have to use who gets through an award or a reward. Who gets the attention about something we have to use the same influence mecca? since that the other side used to make people believe these things. To dislodge these things to give us some something, a bit more concrete on on that front. What are you talking about exactly well, you look at who gets the attention? Okay, I'm caroline m west is a professor. The university of washington- and she is helping me with our vision of my original book called, but says he loves me- we're out lying the tactics used by abusers and we are sorry

typically targeting black women in america. And she has worked her whole career on this and weep. We ve been talking about the imagery projected by things like hardy b and cardy bees, popularity and the fact that party he was the one black woman selected to speak to then candidate, Joe Biden. when you do things like that, it's saying ok, who gets actually have a public audience with the queen, where it gets lots of publicity that has a huge impact on on what that those primal part still the emotional parts and primal parts of our brain perceive as important. Even if we intellectually dismiss it. Those parts of the brain are more powerful than our intellect and they don't have a filter, so they take it all in and our brain

In its programme, pre programmed to adapt, so we start first by being less shocked and then by being more accepting of these values, so I'm looking at all of this in cardiff Really that's the black woman not black scientist nodded, young black girl who's in a worked hard in her community to improve things for the average person living near the role model is the woman who is a former stripper who talks about robbed her johns and present. Herself in the most pornographic way possible. This issue. They have held up as an icon for young black girls, would, you know all key those data that is a sign of racism because war

his saying is you know, for example, that that is all that that particular sectional community are capable of, for example, that's the thing that we should uphold about about them. Not you know the business owners, the intellectuals, the academics, etc, etc. St Joe Biden's racist yeah. Well, if you don't vote for him- and I absolutely think it was racist, but I I'd look one of the problems about stereotypes and racism and even strong bias is that it doesn't just impact how other people and other tribes think about your trolling. It will influence how you think about yourself, oh absolutely, and I'm looking at how many young black people accept this give wars to these people. They say, oh goodness, you know the presidential candidate action spoke with her, so this is something we should admire. You saw all a ted talk, videos of people,

dancing in and doing even smell children doing these things, and I watched in horror because I know not only were they replicating the values that were being presented, it was going into a part of their brain. It's going to take real effort to dislodge that, but it's not going to lead them anywhere go at a dinner. I guess what war I mosque here in terms of what what can be done. I know that your programme healing the risk to be part of that, of course, but I was thinking and a more selfish way like what? What can we, what up people watching this at home be doing like for us? I guess we ve had a number of prominent black intellectuals on the show who are concerned and critical about some of the things that are being done and through the example of them talking about. I know many many people who watch our show, who maybe was sitting on the fence. Many

I like people, but seeing the example of a of an asia can be over in Anaya flyer, a or a b or Glenn lowry or yourself or other people we've got in the pipeline. I think, opens their mind somewhat. Is that what one of the things that we all ought to be doing is giving you know a voice and a platform to people like that? Absolutely as a tension is part of it in a one of the ways of of processing information, how our prime old child brain that still makes a lot of our decisions. It is so important who gets the attention who gets to actually tell their story. It's a Huge influence, you'll notice, that any cause that is being promoted gets a lot of attention, people who are part of that group get a chance to tell their story always from a sympathetic perspective

and it has an impact. So, yes, paying attention actually listening. Actually thinking about it is a big deal. But we need to also those of us who want to change things. Whatever race we are winning to do things like Lauren Spock's run for office. We need to write fell. Arms and stories that have these he's in them. That actually shows things. I am actually looking for funding right now, actively seeking funding I want to do in online? You two course on influence. because I want to show everybody in the world how the brain works and how being influenced too believe things an advocate for things that are asked it's not in our best interest and may even be destructive, and I don't want to just preach at people. I want to show you how your brain works and you you've torched on youtube again. Another part of the puzzle is

social media, because the reality is you know the the most divisive voices are the ones that get elevated on social media because they have the most engagement. Sixty thousand followers, though, may come on yeah. Well, yes, but I have to say I don't care Sera, myself device. Ninety, I know your journey, we weren't talking about you, we went on to do it is easier or one of the things that you may not be aware of- that. A lot of people who think like I do, who look at a lot of the policies being advocated by the people that are being that are often called the woke, do that if you are against anything? They believe you're absolutely abjectly rejected if your black, your called or certain aims, but on the other side, if we label ourselves conservative there's an expectation that we claim that

Racism is a lie that currently there no racism anymore, it's all about personal choices. So for people me I'm kind of stuck in the middle, because I am a social scientist first and foremost, and I have seen too much rigorous Hence, I have too much lived experience of racism to say it's all gone. I might argument is that the approach that we are taking to get rid of that is actually making it worse. so. Yes, social media helps us get out there, but look at the fact that social media allows us to only listen to people, we agree that we need to get a claim. We need to get a wider range of material we need, we need them. People in the middle, like me, now I know this sounds self serving, but I think we need more people in the middle so that we can get people who have been indoctrinate

with those when I consider self destructive values, they won't listen to the opposite perspective, but they may be willing to this a little bit to someone in the middle. And constantine. How were you feeling good and your mental health I'm from russia? We don't mental health. Well, in the civilised world, we talk about our mental health. Oh how, with feeling about all place, the universe in the words of my uncle land. That is why we will crush. You will hear two months away from a break down for the rest of us. There's a number one men to wellness app called com that help she to negotiate a tricky modem. Woe it's ok to need help. Sometimes an com can provide support. Com has been very useful for me. You can t go ahead with guided daily meditations, improve your focus with coms, curated, music tracks and drift off to dreamland, with coms imaginative,

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though, is actually very very difficult because it means it because it means your essentially try bless you not part of the tribe on the left. You not part the tribe on the right, which means that he goes against what we're hard wide, because we want to be part of the tribe and it means take flying from both sides is taken from personal data, have both a little saying this that if I found it interesting because on social media, I wondered ways that I started interacting with lawrence spots. For instance, is he made a comment about they're, not being racism any more and the difference between people who can see themselves non woke and the woke is that I disagreed with him and use. When I disagree with well people, they call me a lot of names, many of them think, beginning with sea or n n. They block me. Instead, he followed me sent me a text instead. Ok show me.

So when I'm dealing with people that are more conservative right now, even if I disagree with them, I'm not so summarily rejected, as I am from the people in the progressive left. The woke me people think they do not allow any dissension of any degree without complete rejection. And what do you think that is Dana, because it's something that I've noticed, particularly the people of friends, all I've got on the rights. You know when we will talk and move disagree and you know be fun, and then we move on friends why dont have any friends left on the left have been some expelled. Warm so the them anyway. Why is it that those people, that sort of the arguments are so intolerant. because their world is intolerant? Your tribe is intolerant because people like You come along, who spent years, in years being educated how to dissect research

To see whether or not its credible, most of what their being told would not hold up to scrutiny alot most of the research that their presenting discipline with their arguments. I turned the methodology page. And I dont want social media comment. If I had written something like this for my daughter, this retention. I never would have graduated so when you're dealing with with people who cannot afford We have the light shine on their beliefs, because then you see all the little critters in the middle of it. It's not maggots in it. They teach people willful blindness, that's that's how they have to act if they're going.

We keep their their numbers so large, and you talk about willful blindness g thing. That's part of the reason why the young people tend to be more woke. Is it because they're more impressionable weighs in at more idealistic or say something else going on, and I suppose the second part of that question is stunt, show that way Women tend to be more woke. The mails on the whole is your region, so that as well well, I would say it with young people. It's because the executive parts of our brain are not fully developed until our midst What is so, we tend to see the world more in black and white before were young. We also see Ourselves is invulnerable. We see things in absolutes. We get very highly motivated by things everything's emotional. That starts to up down by the time we get to the mid, twenties and start to see the shades of gray now women, one of the issues.

as much as I have issues and problems dealing with with blood people around a lot of issues when I breathe bring these things up, I also often have problems with women, because women are brought up to be, and not being nice is more important than being respected. So if Something seems you know if you have some one would talk to be extremely compassionate, even at a lower cost. So whenever a cause is supported by stop stories. Women were off often sign on, come on board full on not asking themselves will wait a minute. What is the other side of the story? Is what they're saying really true? How is dying, going to impact people like me. How's it going to impact my children there not asking any of those questions, because that's not how, most, women are socialized to normalize, which ought to be

an easy weakened, easy for sob stories to take advantage of were taught the people, used to call us bleeding heart. You know the kind of person had anytime seen sad union signed with them most women. Socialized that way. In fact it one of the reasons when I do my unmask ing the abuser workshops, I have us admin that I've had to include teaching and how to say no, because most the time, if the abuser is able to cry tell a story about their hard life. Make them feel like you Oh you're, only picking on me because I'm whatever the woman, will back down and I have to teach them not to do that, because women are socialize differently, so interesting. You're, you remind me of one of our very first ever interviews with a guy who does not much profile, but could you

Mr Perry, and when we asked him my last question, which will ask you, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be. He said the power of the media and the not. He wasn't talking about the like the mainstream media. Just the media in general, whether that social media youtube the mainstream media whatever to create impressions and ideas and people through a story so on what I think, the exam Oh, he gave was even if every night for the rest of your life cnn runs a story about a bare eating somebody that does not. mean that you are in danger of being eaten by bears, because the statistics show that bears almost bare attacks. Almost non existent but if cnn or fox news, or both of them were still run that story every night, people are going to be terrified of bears, I remember actually doing and then o p course a long long time ago and the guy he was running at saying how a jew

was a great great movie for him, because suddenly people living in the sort of flying states of america had a terrible phobia of sharks and he was making lots of money curing. If so, how much of this? is really about the fact that we live in the in the technological society now

If you see one person being badly treated, then by let's say a black person badly treated by a police officer were not capable of contextualizing that with enough data and enough research and enough other stories, and and and also understanding why police behave the way that they behave. We just go like. I would not want that to happen to my son or to my daughter or to my brother, to my father and therefore I don't care about all that other stuff. There's the narrative. You know the police are evil. You know this is what we need to do. How much of all of this is simply the fact that, as you talk that primitive part of the brain just goes well, that's why I am absolutely determined and I'm hoping by doing publicity like this, I can get some benefactors. I can get son sponsors and support once people understand how our brain works and how no matter how intellectually intelligent you are the part, smart brain that in

florence, our emotions and influence, does primal responses had no filter. Will adapt they have been pre programmed in our dna to adapt? You become much more protective of what you allow in your brain? So it's it's! It's something everybody needs to know. I can explain it to kids and they get it ended. absolutely works. But I know it's disappointing, but the first thing they told us, got to graduate school was knowledge The phenomenon will not make you immune to its effects and aiming to show people. Why that's true? Why why? When shows, and programmes and social media sides, are super wording, values, you're telling stories with values when the music has values that go against what you believe to be right and true, why you have to turn it off

why telling yourself? Oh, but it's got a good beat or I watch that show because I, like that one character No, you can't do that. You have to protect. Your brain is a really true, though I mean look, I'm we'll be I'll, be honest. We give you an example. I am, I think, all of us actually would I don't know I don't wanna slander, anyone, but I'm a big fan of gangs syrup right. I've never shut up. Anyone, I've never sold drugs like none of the things that they talk about in the rap lyrics. I've ever done or been tempted to do ever, but it has a good boy, to it, and it's going into your mind. But but I haven't done anything, have I know you're not yet Because you're, not in its european stance, that's what they were all that, but again when you buying music in your supporting the music. What are you supported? and what about people who are more sensitive? What about people

or in those circumstances, what about Situations where a decision has to be made in a split second. it's going there. None of us are immune. I know it's. It's boring to say this, but I I don't advocate for anything. I don't myself? I m very careful. what I allow my brain to normalize, even in programmes that I like films that I like, if they are advocating for values, did I don't believe in turn it off my brain works. My intellect my knowledge will not protect me because I'm not in control of the majority of them, my brain that makes my life decisions, I'm just not less alarming. I've never heard this this argument.

espoused wade's. Now in your hand, and when I get it I thought so so where would you stand Dana on It is just a message: what about the person producing the jar? What about if the person is a problematic person, but produces greater, do you still? Would you say that that the art and the artist divorce is a Michael jackson fan yeah, basically, and if it gets complicated, because if you really there's a part of us that wants to like the people who produce content that we admire and when, for instance, when Michael Jackson had legal cases, the people who Admired his music and all the thousands of fans standing out front had an influence on the jury. It's it's a challenge because, of course, if you support, if you go to,

concerts and new by their music you're, supporting that person's lifestyle, so it does get. I didn't say that was easy, but if we want a better world, then we ve got. We have some tough decisions to make, and that includes It's really looking at the values of what we allow in our brains. We have to just become more protective one of our minds. It's really interesting. Coming back to more to the context of our earlier caution, because if you are saying that- and I guess it- I've I dont have any reason to believe is not very sort of sounds true to me. Well, you kind of at this point have to switch off pretty much. Every hollywood movie for him the role of the mainstream news, social media, so show media right. Like that, I mean

the institutional take I'm on and by the way. This is an issue of been discussing on the shower love, because france is nigh, wanna have kids. This is an issue that will come up is well. Education system is completely taken over as well, so we you. Do you find other members of your tribe and you get more active? I think the problem we have is the people who and I'm going to include the two of you as members of my new tribe, the members of our tribe haven't been incredibly passage and weave, allow people with other intent To influence everyone around us and if you think it not harmless. It will influence your buying habits. Your voting habits whether you sit on the school board or not, I had a pack contact me recently and asked me if I want to run for office in the states. If they come forward on taking it because

I don't have the right to preach advocacy in activity and and and showing people there. You have a right to question You have a right to say no, you haven't, I too looked the flow on effects of what people are promoting and not put myself in the hot seat, and that includes moving to a country which is a lot tougher than the one I mean I mean that the problem is there, isn't a challenge that you're asking people to act against our own self interest? Nobody asked asking them to add for their self interest. Asking them to think beyond today, I'm king them to gather all of that strength I mean for you brits. You ve got an. I watched so much footage of what happened during the second world war began. Or america came in, and you were standing alone against nazi germany. I've,

ever seen such collective courage in people in my life you ve got it. You have the courage now you just have to, johnny fight social media allows us to find other members of this new tried evening with their not nearby and weakened start not buy anything extreme, but Jim by saying no just by asking questions. Just by telling people no I'll be silenced. If what you're saying is valid, I will to see the evidence. I think that very powerful message and actually you ve sort of summarised the credo of chicken ahmed tree there. Really it's about asking the questions looking at the data, creating a community- and you know doing things like speaking to people like you and others, about these issues to present people with information than they can then make up there. On my

about the direction that they want to go, and so I imagine I'm not constant and kitchen coercive trigonometry, but I am constantly kissing president the universe and I've just click my fingers and you are all powerful and you can do whatever you want to solve all the racial tension and all the racial problems. What would you do? Talk Common humanity talk about what we have in common in where the differences hold everybody accountable for what they do fixed tell people fix yourself. First, before you demand. All of these things are other people that speaks ourselves first and I just want to make a brief point from everything else. in having lived in the uk as well as an eight states in the EU has ah I've lived in germany, france, now australia, racism in

u k is not as extreme as it is the states and its allies. Age, it varies depending on where you are, but when you're having people talk about. How raises the uk is, it is not as raised as is the u s, because slavery wasn't such an integral part of your culture and but I think it once people find something in common once they can live together once they can eat together. Again, we not for the english. Sorry we believe you now we we other people's food. I really do and then we corner out and as long as no carry you know efficient like fish and chips rule you got that at least, but once people can get together and look at each other and stop that, let's take the capital letter offers us and the capital letter offers

make it a small letter, and it's amazing how much we can learn from each other, much. We can enjoy each other while, let's get back two enjoying each other's company instead of seeing each other as enemies. Hmm do you think we've gone too far down the road, though, particularly in the states, we're seeing each other as enemies. no, because there are people like me, they should never have. Let me study social psychology that was done. Was there a mistake? If I got into any position of influence I can actually produce, I can write scripts. I've done it before. I can produce content commercials, public service announcements that can show people. they can start telling a different story and start undermining this divisive message It is setting us at each other as enemies

Well I'll tell you why I know you're looking for for financial support everything, but I think if you stop putting stuff out or even just you talking at the camera- and you know you send it to a few people- you showed to people, you will start getting spread around and if it's good, which I'm sure will be, you will get the audience and then the support will be there, whether one wealthy, Comes in and support you are not so I hope you do that. I hope you will you keep. I am doing it and I know you I I know you. I hope you keep going is what I'm saying I would say, thank god for you to someone like vit, my first video on what why you're, not a racist, should be out within the next week. so followed by biases bigotry. Ok, so I'm I'm trying to teach people what's going on that the message Mainstream media will not tell you so that you can start here wing from a place of being kicked constantly. Let's stop kicking each other and start

negating since a really great message- and I look forward to seeing the videos and I'll be doing my best to help you promote them, but we ve got one more question. Freedom, which is boys, are one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be we're not talking about what we have in common, but you know everything is about how you're intrinsically different from me. You don't understand my world. I'm were not looking for the commonality and end building from there, and I think that a mistake. I think it's a really good point and a very refreshing take on all. They say, which I think is much needed, doctoring macmillan. Thank you so much for coming on the show and thank you everybody from watching we'll be back there. soon with another burden into like this one. All of them go out at seven p m. You can't take care and see you soon guys

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