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sir, I'm constance interest and vicious and showed for you if you want all these conversations with fascinating people are berlin. today is a writer and youtube. Madam baker. Welcome to trigonometry iq great. Have you on the show before we get into the conversation, is gonna be a very interesting one. I tell everybody a little bit about who are you Howie way, while what has been your journey through life that lead you to be sitting here talking to us, where? oh, it's. Probably a journey of full part which is first of all. was campaigning cause when I was a a youngster we literally for that global nuclear war was about to break out any minute. So

drew me into campaigning, which led to me living for a period of time in a plastic bag outside the mandate of a nuclear research base mom, and we have all been them his. I hope you are against eyes. You re against the global nuclear war. I thought he was a bad idea to be fair. I much was certainly true. I would say that I was right and wrong in equal measure during those times, but that's a longer discussion. Thanks, then was politics, because I got fed up of campaigning because about saying no to stuff overtime Surely we should be to say what we actually want to help? Instead, we we say yes to something, and I was under the strain, impression that you went politics. I know I know I was not even you, for I ended up in the green party, became culture of uk green party for awhile, I realise that wasn't clean organization, but wanted to make it so fit for changing anything very much. I need

in the lived aims for a while until the point when I realized that actually I'm not build a politics, I'm a pragmatist non, not remotely ideological I don't enjoy. factions, I'm always looking for the objective the solutions, so to be good people in politics, but I realized that wasn't me and I have to say I don't think I feel a huge amount of fellow feeling driver those parties in the modern incarnation, I've been a floating vote ever fed I've been is corporate social responsibility, which I was talking to. major corporations, some of your top footsie one hundred, please about their environmental impact, about re social responsibilities, not be confused with woke corporations. Phases distinction is important, but We not very interesting.

and that was with business in the community which to a membership organization that has a lot of atop chief executives and gay. So I was an interesting. I on vat universe of people making decisions for huge corporations with lots of power and influence and handsome times change, goes through those sources spheres. And finally now here I am with the youtube china, where I stepped away from that and ended up going back to first principles. Of beet becoming curious again about will. What is really, about what's going on having started vaginal thinking. I was gonna, be carrying on doing what I'd always been doing, which supporting change makers who are working in different spheres ultimate. We have started to do a few debunking videos and got really curious as to what actually, hang on a moment, I thought this was going to be debunking vase, but the closer you look at it.

actually we some real substance to this argument that language really are in charge. Yet, quite so, I worry fashioned what I was doing in two stepping aside for, the polarization I'm just asking the questions about. What is what is the research really say, and does actually mean what people popularly would have you believe and that has been fed, to all sorts of topics and largely where we scientific realities bump into the political sphere which using increasingly happening, as we all know, I'm actually he's gonna become more not less for factor of the next few decades, so as well a difficult dilemmas lie with grey areas that I find so interesting and you ve got like youtube. China was watching it of the past couple of days to do research, and you did this brilliant video that really men on safety is an.

all this safety is. Miss pie in our society and the fool when Where would I was talking with constantine? We realised that he also linked in with the main topic. we're gonna be talking about which is climate change so could we have first? Will your thoughts on safety? Is him and how we ve seen it rapidly progress from the moment when you were a child? In fact, yes, is interesting because over first time twenty years of my life, it was always a running joke about you asked society changes you you can tell how old you are by how don't you moan about how things are different to how they were when you were younger and there was always a running joke about health and safety, your health and safety- he was always a thing, but I've got mad sort of thing and yet beyond that when you look at where we are now and the mindset that we have now you realize what has gone beyond the joke.

and he really struck home. For me, first of all, when I did a video roused comparing the current pandemic, the recent pandemic shall we say with nineteen, fifty seven asian flu, which was, not identical but was broadly in the same zone in terms of veal, the harm the health harmful created, but of course how society reacted too. It was completely different mostly we just carried on with life as normal? There was some adaptations. Are people made of interest? thing was. It wasn't a political issue, it just wasn I mean there was a vaccine that was produced relatively quickly and I think government support hell. That's happened. There was no I join in amerika the next year. I think I'm the incumbent lost but That was nothing to do with it. It was not a party political issue at all and the reason that was that people just didn't have the expectation the government was there to keep them safe from the virus disease happened and

He first really serious disease came along. Then people would have to organise awaited to deal with that if houses he might be over might be overcome. Then, of course, for government to put resources intellectual that doesn't happen, but otherwise most people just didn't thing that was what was there to do now has changed. Obviously, I know all about the lockdown visas we ve seen over the last couple of years and they but no leaders, even who started well with a pandemic have ended well, not even the same lee just in the But they are now seriously happy there as well. Not even there Any of the leaders come through the whole two years well and arguably that is because the expectations now on what the government can. And should provide for you is an individual has. gone beyond the basis of what we can actually deliver an vase

has gone hand in hand with this view that its words, keep a safe first job of government is to keep a safe, and that was always the case, that was the old hogs in your contract with the state leviathan state was values there to protect us from java and ourselves heads with falling about. Was you wanna be protected from foreign enemies and from crimson quality in your own exaggerate, that's it that's what he was talking about absolutely but over time, but has become laid up and lay it up and particularly value in the aftermath of world war? Two, when we had the creation of wealth, state in a ring, you had more and more layers thrown on all, which we then we simply absorbed into our expectations, are what government can do for you? and so now we have ended up in his position where we have been. officially, wrapped in cotton wool. For for so long that we have come fragile people

yeah. Where is before We dealt with adversity by training ourselves to be strong in the face of adversity. By teaching young people how to cope with, season difficult situations and by rail to kill a mocking bird because it made them feel uncomfortable because those, I was part growing up confronting all of these things and I walked to school and nobody fort anything of it, probably ever gonna hoping I get lost to be my actually just be made, Nevertheless, no nobody much, commissioner. I think that, with the stance that came out of when I did research about videos so light I commend the exact moment I was not sent. Seventy eight percent of kids will to school. When I was I know right euros to school. When I was seven or eight an It's an eight percent outrageous stoning, unethical sites because be traffic got worse

ass. We had all the newspapers telling us about stranger danger and people. They wouldn't let that darlings out, because they were terrified that were a pet predators. the street corner ends. The processes, as is just as we have seen it media hyping up dangerous because it feeds clicks, which there I ve ever tighter model. We fees into a terror mindset amongst the population and then look to authority, forty to defend themselves from that, and that has the eighty day. I weakened, dependent mindset rather than a strong resilience. Citizenship a nice, a real problem for us logically it's a big problem, because one of the consequences that seems quite inevitable. To me, out of this sort of approach is damning. The government has to do more things and if the guy, does more things. It means there are more errors of your life that the becomes involved with

I'm not someone who thinks that government is it has no role in society at all. Of course it does, but the problem is the government is. It is a very blunt instrument for dealing with lots of issues or you see in the combination round- freedom of expression, for example the government, can either ban things or it can allow them. He can't have. You can't have the the ones conversation about well, you are allowed to be a dick, but maybe you shouldn't be right. The government I can't do that so if we make The government regulate every element of our relations, every element of our behaviour, every element of our safety, you ain't gonna end up with a sort of advanced soft authoritarianism? Eventually, vat is what the dangers the shore and- and you can add to that- the fact that governments are actually just not very good at doing lots of things Why did we get such a rapid vaccine role actually in these countries because they took it out of the bureaucracies hands and put it into a small panel which brought together the private sector who are used.

Things quickly into scale, if they managed to do a much much better job and in soon as they handed it back to the the bureaucracy of the state, it'll gummed up again, so you've got both tendency of governments to want to Push you to comply. You, if you want, If you will insist on getting fat, then now try not you and if nudging won't work I'll put you a bit harder. And then you marry that with the fact that actually not very good executing, and so Is you get the worst of all worlds in that sort sense, but we do have a real danger ahead of us, because as we are moving more towards these big global issues that we're facing that towards the technocratic mindset in terms of one of the solutions and how we deal with them. they tend towards authoritarian solutions. I didn't say that governments will naturally given servants. I dont see them the likes of

was johnson over lightly successors. Have that as an ambition, particularly but very a dynamic that you have to actively oppose juncture to push me a direction not to drift vat way. And I don't see that they have a sufficient vision. Currently to do that are you tired of using both old wallets, giving you a bulge where you don't want it to be? Mobile wallet was messy, so it blew all the ladies to the yard, which was a huge distraction and going the way of my esteemed work on trigonometry ridge wallets have an incredible solution for you. This is mind sleek, stylish and with an industrial look to it can fit twelve cards with cash. On the back. Using a clip like this one for a strap, we've got one for the whole team. I've got one francis has one even our produce and has one but he's from Liverpool. So he floaties on the black market.

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went to silence and by the time you gotta get, have been assassinated. Yeah exactly are I pay joy? That would be bad. anyway, that would be a bad night magazine that happens. We will have the exiles. We hope you will remain boss. If you look at what the american government doing that china silence silencing neutrality platform, him and they would argue that they doing that because they want to inverted commas, keep people site via right so that he can spread his in inverted commas. Misinformation we are seeing is safe to use them as far as I'm concerned, being used as a way to control of its soft authoritarianism, do a great many ideas and I'll tell you why it's happening. I think we're is that we have now come across two big issues. Where it

be easy for the elites, if you like the the government, but also the mainstream media types and various people in the same orbits, to see That, though, is the right thing to do, and people need to be persuaded to go along with it. So in terms of a pandemic- and I also intend to climate change- you have The situation where the population need to be persuaded to do the right thing vat has turned what used to be streams of community asian streams of information from government where they were here to tell us what was going on values. I become streams of what some would describe as propaganda. but in any case he's campaign messaging when I first. darted out, dealing with climate change, Susan. You know I've always half Y ever dealt with on the corporate responsibility stuff was teeth showing

Companies have had to respond to the climate change agenda racing up in dealing with for decades, however, extend, rebellion as matters box of frogs. So in a few videos, critiquing the stream campaigner end and some of the things about. a demanding would just didn't make any sense. various peoples. I won't what you say is absolutely right. It's just not helpful to say at this point. I have heard that so many times since some other things he kicked back against the insect apocalypse because the language being used. There was overblown apocalyptic language again and when you look to the research it didn't support some of the time line messaging. Yes, further problems, insect declines in the research shows up, but not what was being claimed and then again, one came back and said Everything you said was correct. Scientifically all the papers you cited were correct, you didn't miss in form, but it wasn't helpful messaging and an energy

underpinned for me now how much of this is turned into campaign messaging? This is the problem. This is why people will start to distrust. Well, maybe told you. Why did we get some stance during the pandemic and not others, because some stats were considered to be helpful in underpinning the message that says, you should be worried about base. Therefore, we should comply with the measures that we bring play and some were less helpful, that, although very arguably more helpful in understanding what we're hank was going on, which some really wanted to do. What you're really talking about money is a very good point, which is it's very sneaky what they ve done, what they ve done is they ve? They traded the signs for public health. right. These are two very different thing. Science is about finding what the truth is. Public health is about getting able to do what you want right and they say If your questioning the public health, not following the science,

these. Things are not the same thing and climate change, which is the issue that we were originally going to talked about, and let's get into it now, because you've kind of brought us there very neatly seems to me to be exactly the same rights, because what you ve got. On the one hand, is a bunch of people running around gluing themselves to trains going absolutely ape shit over every tiny. Little thing that happens, and the science- isn't really being talked about properly, what you, god is the extreme end on one end and those other people who think it's not happening I know I'm no signs scientist, I don't know which one of them is right. I'm just saying that I think The messaging is mine. it's more like public health than it is like science, the way we're having the conversation of their climate change. So what is the truth about climate change, because you know we ve had Raja harlem from extinction. Rebellion on the show we ve had Patrick ma I think it's all a bunch of whores shit. We ve

beyond lombard? He thinks it is happening, but it's not a big deal like where are you on? That is so This is one of the frustrations if you get involved with us, because of course what you have with most of those carrots as there is that you have people on me, opposite extremes and people. often say, was to get the balance of the issue. You you on the one side, and then you talk riverside majority. This issue lives in the middle and that's not simpler, but nonetheless we start there the core science. The core science is the planet. Warming is the the burning of fossil fuels, causing it is pretty clear and I mean there are multiple streams of evidence that all points in the same direction. So when scientists have science, he settled we're talking thy back that basic core wishes. supported by multiple streams of evidence all away very, very straightforward and hard to argue, with most of the sceptics now bar Few of the out tonight you have the scientific

immunity is engaged in it spirits. He against us all types. a they largely accept that much. The question I really comes through was so what so? What does that enforced, can have in the future and particularly, and what does that mean in terms of what we should do about it and have a problem with climate changes are people conflate, the two so because The extreme campaigners go around trumpeting version of the science which is cherry picked from the most do missed elements confined, then people will, confuse very messaging with the scientific underpinning I'm sorry, it's very easy van. If you're on the icons, if mindset to say well, yeah is associated with those wild eyed loons vessel. The whole thing is wrong: and that is a real mistake, what if hiding the uk over the last couple of decades a bit of a privilege in that both the can.

event and the socialist end all agreed on the core of reality. This is kind of what's happening and we could disagree about what we do have. I said: yeah you can, they conservative approach to tackling climate change, you can have a socialist approach to tackling climate change. Phobia Commonalities will also differences. That's what we should be arguing about talking about fish all knights deal reality and in our view, like cats, in a bag about what we do about it? Fine and then in america you had your swingers quite different, and I tend to thing- is cause our goal. I rose as an early spokesperson than that, help to polarize it because he was a very partisan, but for whatever reason you got one side that is going on there on the extinction rebellion end of the debate shall we say losing its drifting in that direction and they went On the other side, that's faint on the trumpian and drifting in the other direction, and they can't

agree on reality, which is a real problem I always thought that eventually, What we had achieved would start to drift over there and moderate republicans would start put things in a modern, democratic, restart provings in a kind of might be happening. We have away way round, which is not a good news. Really, I'm part of is because of incompetence. Not politicians because have a conservative government was not overly conservative and what we are doing on net zero. Has some good underpinnings, Ben veils are generally incompetent, I'm afraid when you got people, we inexorably party who event lumping behold goal of net zero as part of what they dislike in vat creating then the same dynamics and political dynamic. We see in america that could play on

Well and could play I really badly and it's too early to tell which we're gonna go man. I've got go this question which always ask people when it comes to this on every issue you get your extreme on on either side. Not always on whatever issue tight fine. Why is it that We have the extreme less same things. You know we're gonna go fifty good harvest left the world, stoned all the rest of it not learnt to their opinion, maybe right. Maybe then I don't know, but then why is it that opinion is in funneled into our kids and his wife We accepted then the media start talking about it and we ve got this generation of people who are complete. indeed terrifying cause. I think one day they gonna white cop in the world's gonna, be on fire, but wake up yet boy This is a real problem, europe clearly right and one of the things that I discovered most surprising,

prize me the most when I started doing that for youtube deep dive videos? Where did for research on these was just how often The campaign messages that I had entirely accepted were was standard and rising reopened, Michael, go repeating the over the government had entirely accepted, so you look into them. They fell apart. Fifty harvests that has come from. Nowhere has no scientific underpinning whatsoever. I think some detracting track, take back to where it wasn't came from a campaign thing that was then misquoted and just just not true, simply not, and yet it is repeated over and over to the point. Where free repetition it has become accepted. This fact and michael go, who will repeat it because he expects that its fight, and he is trust who are these while obvious, is obvious ways such a good dancer? You could say that this is a real problem, because then, when you start to, then take that as a magical some process for kids.

then you are storing up these. Deeply ingrained attitudes, name that become the next generations instincts they got instincts. I receive a world that is One of our biggest worries articles always been the case that the teaching community who do fantastic jobs, many great teachers in their eyes a whole? They tend to lean left towards us. As we know, I would say that very leftwing won't you and they were when I was brought up on a year by just so that profession, most of us survive arab bringing perfectly well, and most kids are very quick to spot a certain amount of bullshit in their education. Yeah raises certain: might certain amount you can just relax a little bit? On the other hand, when he comes to something where violence encouraging your deepest insecurities and fears. By saying you have a claim. Mrs, is going to Helen handcart, those

one extinction, rebellion person who goes to kids and says you're, vichy reason. What are you gonna grow old species, whether whether even grow up? no signs to support that whatsoever, but nevertheless this is being pushed kids advisory seen millennials these days. They are grown up, we're millennials as well, so that just wait testament bullets manner. You haven't addressed my earlier question, which I think is important to do. If we're gonna have this part of the conversation with what is The truth about how dangerous climate changes, how quickly it's happening. What sort of measures might be sensible to consider in response etc? Tell us that, because I think that's really dance? Is that everybody is looking for his light? We keep tall does a disaster I don't think there is a disaster coming in the next twelve years as a or c said, we're all gonna die. You know all of that is not happening. So how early It is the problem, our biggest problem, and what are some of the reasonable solutions that we might consider. Two ok

The reason why we should say confusing is because media has pushed extreme scenarios. Yet now the ipcc, the body that collects together the science and published a report every few years v, produce number scenarios based on what we do, because you can't predict the future without settling how many fossil fuels are we gonna to burn in the meantime on the basis of what we kind of said, what we going to do and the fact that we won't do all of it, but we'll do some of that fear. We are on a stream scenario. The stream worst case scenario, is what tends to get often quoted and as one of its problems singled ass epa point. Five is, as it was that has been one of the problems that always the clique page. Listen will talk about the x in cases where everyone thinks that we see this is gonna happen, eminently that doesn't mean that various no capacity for things to go seriously wrong. You're in it

scale that we would care about you he's absolutely a possibility Is he a high probability not on the current basis? But basically probability there will be some problems that we need to deal with like love. So One of the challenges that we have is that we have grown is a population on this planet but population is starting to even I, but is very, very high for the four for states planet, but we have on and we are currently now using all the agricultural land as much land space agricultural land, as we likely to have ever. Forwards. So we have here a barrier there. We can make it more productive, but we don't have any more. Now the question is: when you have eleven billion people, as we will end up, having dependent on particularly a number of bread basket, regions that have to be highly productive to fatal those people.

become very vulnerable to shocks to the system you dont everyone's resiliency left in a system. Ok, so you might be to create new agricultural land further north Climate change is, but then you lose some in the tropics as well as they become less suitable for for growing, we're not gonna have a lot more than we ve got so then- If you get extreme weather events, which we expect to get more of, you may well have several years in a row where you get severe shocks to food systems, which will then have big knock on effects for human society. Those are the sorts of things but a high It's a map because depend on certain shock events that will become more frequent happening, an unfortunate sequence unbending, Quincy could be very serious, are examples, venues corsairs things, I've rising sea levels and home if human habitation is, is on coastal areas and divisive disruption and cause. That's gonna cause

Taiwan I'm less worried about that, because that will be expensive. It we're painting the backside, but that's not life threatening, wave at some of those of us who are key things are, Now. What should we do about it? Well, net zero. Is, policy goal that we absolutely have to do because ultimately, carbon oxide stays rounding atmosphere for quite a long time. You you have to stop adding to the natural carbon cycle eighties. relatively imbalance, revise our contribution but songs we keep adding to. It is light and overflow. in bar fewer we reviewed. put more and more in overflows uns until we stop adding to it. Anyone stabilize it will always continue. No timescales. Europe should be as fast as possible, but not faster, and this is where we get the overlap into where people can

lay the science with the policy because we ve if the committee on climate change would have looked at over different aspects of the the electricity grid and industry and so on, and what has to happen to change all of us. I did a reasonably good prank I take practical job of of in all of that, and they came up with this week. Get to net zero by twenty. Fifty we Our system wavered. It is working correctly, so not. Laying waste to the economy in any way, shape or form, which is what we want. Maybe it's gonna take a bit longer than I were expected to take a bit longer, not because circles. season humans imperfect, we will go very imperfectly, a amazingly and two steps forward and one step back. Kind of how we are never. that timescale is a reasonable one. If we do it properly. Another ten years is reasonable. If we do it properly,

the question is we shouldn't try and do it faster than is feasible? and the danger is that people are seeing is a one variable problem. Just like the pandemic. I saw The pandemic was a one variable problem, covert cases, and we act and every single thing to bring covert cases is done. We shall He didn't work anyway, but in any case, The problem has been maximum human welfare when code it is one variable amongst the number variable- was a new weighing up the cost of a different things, but you gonna do about each of those different things. and maybe you'd have ended up doing exactly the same, probably not dynamic, Elise, you would be weighing up, was different factors, same here. The single variable, in this case the c o two, because it isn't what we It is for human society to continue to flourish, for people to be either way, chief their ambitions for themselves and to live our lives? Why preserving the

for world which keeps us alive, it's our life support systems and also keeping the climate within weaving the bans that will support our future going forward. What would you say to the bureau lomborg argument, which is that if we introduce this, what's gonna happen is that energy prices are going to go through the roof for their average person that and give wrong rise to ever more populous leaders. Who will then pushed back on it, and then everything is doomed, I don't think you said that you just that it is worth noting alone. That's the tabloid journalist, who may well fox not captain bill, on all some very good questions ends. The challenge I have with with beyond This is some of his errand It is very useful for his specific answers, but he asked

absolutely some of your questions and when I say that net zero is a policy objective, not policy, The point is very no if you do vase, energy prices will go up because there's twenty things you can do and if you do it properly should be doing in a way. That means that energy prices don't go up and when you say please, really, what you mean by that well so at the moment, what we're doing is we are creating a more morality around the use of fossil fuels, but just now fossil fuels, bad morally bad so You want to open up a new thing in the north sea for the gas, bad dungeon new coal, mine, bad, don't dirt, and yet if we are going to make any condescends, will progress through two net zero, but when fifty or twenty sixty vanish- a paper and we can be using a lot of fossil fuels are declining amount of fossil fuels over a period of time. Managing a declining industry is perfectly possible and come

These can make public good profit out of a declining industry, raped and overtime, through history, but to be a managed decline, because as I think the head BP said to be a cop twenty six summit, if, you try to reduce the fly of a thing before you. reduced for demand. Then the prices go up an end Do you believe that it's not me anything has been happening over the last year we energy prices, but he certainly been a big part of what is driven up energy prices. So this approach the idea logs have and Sadly, some of the ideal ongoing governments as well, which you seem need to push way anything to do with fossil fuels. Rather than saying what we got a plan, next ten years we're going to use this amount of fossil fuels, and it's going to declines of ants going to declines that how do we supply this in for most cost? Active way in the way that gives us most energy security and so on, and so on, but he's not

The problem problematic that essentially you're trying to reduce the demand for something that will never be reduced because of the population on for energy, not for fossil fuel energy, but for energy. and you haven't, got a ready made replacement the eyes cheaper without some beyond point. Is you have to invest in technology to make alternative forms of energy cheap enough that You don't need the levers of government to introduce a because people are just gonna, buy this cheaper energy wherever comes from you shot, but we don't have a yet some saying yes, oh wow, I dont think for that is entirely true in that There are certainly some of the alternative forms of energy have become cheaper, like work, whilst the renewable forms of energy, have become cheap as a wind, solar, wind and solar that cheaper than than burning yes way. However, however,

the flip side of that is that you need to fail intermittent forms or you need to either be at a store, the energy that they create. Jess and all you need to have to find a way took to feeling when, when they not pursued, that's what I mean overall as a package: it's not cheaper. Yet not just point. Are we have the way to make it work without fossil. Whatever way you want to put, it is not enough. alternative that is cheaper as well. If you are taking all of approves of all the different she's, always and all of the cons of different energy sources, and you factor in the impact of the use of force views into that equation then drives you necessarily to fall. Seeing the pace on some of the alternatives? Now some of the alternatives are partly workable and we, become better? We know if we drive him so nuclear technology, for instance, still for twenty thirty years, because we got scared, about it after chernobyl, and we, froze the developments about technology where it was the existing nuclear.

Power stations are using thirty old technology, basically not reassuring fourth generation hasn't fourth generation nuclear solves a lot of the problems that we were worried about. You something goes wrong. Plants will shut down safely rather than meltdown vader, create very much Nuclear waste and family can use nuclear waste nuclear waste as fuel. as with anything. If you work technology to scale when you gradually make it better and you solve problems. So if we work clean technology to scale as the chinese drinkers. Vacancies misses the technology of the future. If, You push yourself as pioneers into that space. You become the providers of that technology to the world, so they want you ve done by putting money into it when it was less cost effective, as you ve invested in when you take. Ology, which you then re the costs of investment from by selling it to the world,

the world will go net zero in a blink of an eye when you ve got the cost effective technology that works. How do you get that you get it by investing in developing that technology. We already know that nuclear works issues, but we I ideological stuff going on that. Has that Even though we save a razor climate crisis, we also going to be anti nuclear, and you see that How could you ever come to that conclusion? If you're, simply thinking which is a pragmatic problem to be solved, it's not It's an ideology that is driving these your boy germany shutting down nuclear power stations right now and ramps. Cole when he says that he is going to be a climate leader and by the way, make an extremely vulnerable to russia, which is why the current situation with ukraine, germany, candy, shake as they ve david closed our power stations, and they see us so near zero if it's taken as a pragmatic engineering problems to be addressed. When is a certain amount of investment in technology that make sense- and I knew

and planning a waiver will avoid the problems of massive energy price, spikes and so on and so forth. Not how we're doing it we doing in these weird ideological, knee jerk, technocratic way where we- and I may decisions, based on how difficult are politically, more than we are, and I was gonna get the job done, I'm not he's going to lead to exactly what you described what you ascribed to be on whether he would have only himself now he did say: you're gonna get my balls and errors yet you come on down the exiles ass. His exact words, absolutely right because of the technocrats who are pushing the solutions at the moment are doing a really bad job of pushing their case. They are tending towards the authoritarian, which we don't like an and telling you, wherever you can or county meat and all those sorts of things

again, if you ve been pragmatic about wish you'd start by saying what do people most value, how do we, reduce the impact of those things, so people travel. they value what they eat and soon as a country comes, I poverty what they do. They start eating more meet its high prized highly nutritious, so you start with a pragmatic question is how do we reduce the impact of the things that people value, which makes a more likely to come with us on the journey that we need to go on but what are we doing it all now what we do is your. We start Faced with an ideological preference which is up will consume less may travel less, they drive less, they eat vegan they do whatever it is that we think is a good lifestyle and what we can do. Is we going to cram that down on them he's not a winning proposition- I would suggest an yet. the bbc yoga soon the BBC's wet climate change. It takes seconds

for they have gone on to meeting eating gone onto flying maker keep away from it yet. There are massive impacts in all sorts of areas that are much more important to talk about, because now bigger impacts that have systemic Engineering challenges that can be done scale why Wouldn't you do those things first? Why won't you focus on those things first and persuade people that actually you're working on their behalf. You'll be working so that vague, have more of the things that they value long into the future. Their kids can have those things as well. I know if Someone in the future, if you have to turn our answer, we really wanted you to to have this, but Actually we can't get restless We can't get flights that works anymore, you're retraining for twenty years and we failed and you're not gonna, be the fly as much. Maybe people say: well, we trust, but you did try now we're gonna say that now, because

because what they see, a bunch of people whose first preference the crammed our lifestyle restrictions on people. First preference and is also was well man. You're, not gonna, win hearts and minds in doing that, and if we really want this green, revolution as it is to work, you're gonna need you're gonna need that you're gonna need ordinary people to buoyant, but you're, saying to people. Oh, you can employing you're not gonna, be able to eat me You see the elites doing that very thing, freud around the world and doing the thing which you are allowed to do any more people I'm gonna buy? And yes, and the problem is. People are thinking of it as a green revolution, because the thing that they with most hates is for us to solve The problem of climate change, too. A world that looks exactly like it does right now right without climate. This is what I was gonna ask him alone, because I tell you what I see in it as well. There is a

on a broader thing going on in western society, which poorly I cover my book, which is there's a sort of self loathing in the west and the reason, I think a lot of people feel Why antagonistic to this green shit is the is like you want people to suffer. You want to take away from people the things that they enjoy, because we are bad because of colonialism and industrialization and whatever else that the west is what you want. I to suffer for that, and this is your punishment. We're gonna, raise your energy prices, you're not going to have any meat you're not going to travel anywhere, there's a of like they love that shit. They love to to to feel like they're, taking things away from people that we must be punished for our sins. I think it feels like that's a lot of people I am kobe did as well uncovered the same. Yes, Important thing is not to confuse Mindset is alive and well in the heads of the extreme environment. Campaigners and,

a number of other mouthpieces, amin you'll, see echoes of that in various places. Definitely used we'll have to divorce that from the actual call science has said here, we still have a pragmatic problems that we have to do something about. The challenge is always when people can slightly too because he's very easy to fight back on my right to believe they Botswana think I'm with you, I'm like look. If you need if you want to raise my taxes, to invest in better nuclear energy, go for it if you want to raise my taxes to make sure The damage we use is used efficiently without wasting we're like to me. Resource depletion is a big problem. Pollution. Is a massive problem? Go go for it. I'm happy two to pay more money. If that's what I need to do for those things the address What I don't like, though, is that tinge of punitive action, for the sins of my former as I do, and I think

maybe writes about the ways being marketed: fires, yes, and its assent as we said earlier on that all the communications in our campaign, communications, because we seen his finesse refine out with the pandemic. With the use of a nudge unit to manipulate us gently and suddenly to complying This is a real problem, because you have already started producing documents. Looking. Well, how do you start to nudge people into the right behaviors on climate change, now on the one sense it's a question and discussion to have to say well if people, people's behaviors are less than optimal for themselves. How would you encourage them to address that I would encourage change if, if, a higher percentage of america is obese, then really should be the case and unease the case anywhere else, why's that and and I

You telling them that they're dreadful people- and I should change- probably isn't going to work. So what would work asking the question of how you persuade people? That's one thing per month: we them in a way that they don't even notice your doing more She's doing over time, it's gonna be a line amongst us over time you going to a supermarket. you probably won't even notice. There's is a smell of freshly by breeding year anyway, care to use, there's no bakery, not supermarket, because I've worked out very phases that lovely sent all freshly grain coffee people bible in a inflows? You two bible? Ok, so we know the culprits, borderline evil, but the is relatively harmless relatively harmless. I don't know Invite particularly maybe some people do but he never gonna go supermarket. If you want or not shop in supermarkets, you gonna go to a different kind,

it's not really. No, that's true, but you go into a supermarket. You don't know, that's what they're doing, and it's all very subliminal in that sort of sense, if I'm gonna, use subliminal techniques to scare you because of a panther and they want you to stay at home and then and suddenly everyone is so terrified they want. The government locked down again, and so the government locks down again that's what everybody wants, but everybody wanted it because the government scheduled in the first place what the he's going on with that, if you want to do that with climate change, then yes you're gonna have populist reaction and deservedly so egg and since when do you love trigonometry, of course, incredible interviews? Hilarious life strains hard hit santa plus my some july, whatever it takes away from your hairline. Put few: do love trigonometry angie want to support us. There's only one place to do that and

Its own local, yes, locals is a brilliant platform that has been incredibly supportive to wash out another problematic creators, we're going The thing about locals is that it's a community for people who love trigonometry, that's right, it's a place for you to hang out with. Like minded people share thoughts, memes and discuss the show you can enjoy it for free, but it oops It gives you the option of supporting us as little as seven dollars a month, and if you want to give more you can we have incredible, rewards far higher tia supporters as well. We ve got everything from monks, monthly, glucose and one on to chance with me and K cognitive join our can. In a unity by hitting the link in the description and the pin common below see you guys, I said to Roger hallam: we would you King, about my time. In my peace women days and young lhasa. my colleagues were in jail like he's going to jail now he line you should get back into that eyes.

Fine words are when you take over I'll, be in jail, sing nina, I absolutely hold today where we are going. the rise of the soft, well for a terry of of. Ultimately, this, takes you there are some real confrontations come and that such good point, because areas, I'm talking with a friend who is conspiratorial in nature and all the stalled upon them on sends a conspiracy theories, but now just looks hockey's silver profit from going to be honest with you, and he and she said to me can you imagine in five years or ten years, or maybe even twenty years? Can you rule out lockdown for climate change? and I saw about us- and I was gonna scoffing muscle after everything- this and I genuinely come here

I think I still would I'm still holding on to reality by my fingernails. I think all of us were, I think, undoing anyway, largely. because it's such a slow burn thing. It would make sense now: ok, there's quite alone Things that we ve done. I've lost couple years didn't necessarily make sense for no with a with a virus. A pandemic is demonstrably a short term thing. You get shorter waves, and so on. But there is nothing to do with the release of co2 into the atmosphere. Is that short term, where locking he's going to make a huge difference, and he didn't lockdown is a word. What you could say is and by the way, I'm not his concerts, hardly minded friend, I'm just playing devil's advocate, but you could say: look you know just locked up you just you, can only drive a certain number of miles a year without a special permits you can only have one fly a year. Unless you're going to visit a family-

employees on their death bed or for a funeral or can only have X, number kilograms of beef, chicken pork. Whatever you like We're really talking about is restricting people's freedom to do what? I think is the right thing for them, based on document that we are all Oh, yes, aggravating vision, that vision is definitely a possibility and right for me, besides ignacio he's a possibility in the same way that split now play the lead. At least I feel better about the alternative possibility on the other wing is but frumpy in future, where the populist. Clash means that we say sought all that we don't believe any of it anyway. So we're just going to view burn While we can.

And maybe somewhere in the middle, an always, but ultimately, if a middle bit fails if the centre fails to hold. As I say, one of those two is the extremes we can lurch to and maybe we'll lurch to have a one and then in action to that will end up being pulled back to the other. But ultimately, the game is to avoid over, and that means really trying to bring us back to a wife, polar ice state, but we becoming back to the sensible sense of this country. You, to run. Does he still run I've? I think he's still runs, I'm not sure anymore. to run on the centre, because our full system works, so we vote for government I get in his letter counteracting lately. I have to say well, you're right, you see, I don't they govern, denounces jerking, you ass, an owl, correct and

if I may not weakening boot from yes now about pushes people back to the centre, yes by and large, and various parties, their fortunes have risen and fallen when they ve taxes. center and when vapor, competent and- to the elections of informing lost on competence. If now and then name will get one where we got two incompetence. If I didn't have very often whereas in america and vacant, govern they got gridlock so bad, but basically whoever get saying they not really governing at all. So they never. have consequences, because I can always point we have. As I say, we would have done great things, but they stopped us and that therefore it created the incentives and drift further and further to the extremes. Where is he? if you are able to govern the biden was was elected, I as ok, you run a government, you wanna do stupid stuff. You can you you're the government now and that would

that would actually solve my pretty quickly, because then they will be held accountable for their actions, That would be a very sobering thing now we we have had that. I think overlaps You decades Ah, we still, I dont, know the breaks it number, the dynamic for populist movements, stuff is very hard to see where our core now is. But if, still there was. I think it is right. raise everything to play for in talking to the centre the problems we have a government that won't find for its vision. When Margaret thatcher first talk about climate change, she argued the case. Why conservatives, whether natural home for voting, that the environment, you could agree with our cases. You cannot, but she put forward. Conservative case why they were based on the environment. The party would perform their case where they were better and you understood visions that were being put forward. more vision, as the current government go around net zero.

His war vision as the current gm go around. Anything it's because you don't have any Margaret thatcher's any more. That's why you call the extremists campaigners saying the world is going to end and we have to do all this stuff, whose arguing with them when I is there arguing for nuclear disarmament in my naive, charming way begun was saying: don't do or he said, he's an idiot, I'm they were kind of right or via the point as well, but they put the haste. I made the argument. I said if we don't drink these arguments and blame, why we need to do what we need to do the public, I understand why we're doing it with simply not doing that vote, the conservative government has no conservative vision for net zero, so conservatives in the party saying what is net, zero stuff about racism, conservative and then people on the outside, looking at extinction, rebellion and thinking. Well, that's what net zero must be about,

one of the reasons why people are conflicting science with the extreme I'm paying solution and the problem is as well is if the government doesn't have a clear vision and it gives credence told and knocked at the far left them far right was that I was the point that you will make a as act, and this is like, I said: if, if you had a gun what they were laboratory, frank went: look, we ve got a problem. The science is pretty clear. We ve got the problem that's looming, we need to invest in technology too, to solve this problem right and that's why Worship of our budget will go to words. What is the best form nuclear energy? How do we get wind and solar power, design better batteries. Elon musk cares of grant whatever right what simple person would go. No, actually, I think you'll bullocks.

I don't think anyone would mean some people would, of course, but the vast majority of people will be like well. Okay, that's fair enough! I mean we spend a billion here, a billion on other stuff if we threw a few billion and finding new technology that is going to is going to address. Some of these issues But that is the way the conversation been had an you're right. It is on the government because then, engaging aggressively yes with this, nonsense and going look. We think that It is important and here our plan to deal with it Gretta somebody needs to go back to school right if they did. you would have a much easier time of convincing people to get support behind cause. Yes, lily and across greater, is now old enough to be wrong. So we set out its lack of a cop twenty six conference. It was the first time when she wasn't invited onto the main platform. You'll have noticed and she said her usual thing about all vegan, going blah blah blah and we're not doing anything either.

this time no news stories are appearing saying greatly recently gentlemen very respectful ways. I actually, we think gretta might be wrong of areas. Have a well she's come of age and just say whenever she liked before when people find it charming, but if you're these pay, in that conference whole who have been working and slaving trying to make these thing work trying to make things really genuinely difficult ones trying to do was never been done before. It is incredibly difficult, reneging making my mistake can get it wrong and deals with things. Nevertheless, been really trying to do it having one site. That's what you do. It was nothing charming when they're fifteen, not so much when they're nineteen. which is why she's outside for conference gazettes, where outsiders live an uneasy. because they would love let in as part of the process, but you have to stop being an outsider of, if you're, to do that, She can't do it because she's become of that extreme campaign group, community,

and their messages are not the messages of insiders joints too, to work solutions. When orange you'd solution now what? extinction rebellion, wants to happen They can't tell you they won't tell you, they won't Was it a policy because there are no policies but would deliver zero emissions in five years wooden fro hundred? upon hundreds of millions of people into poverty. and, if you are looking at a is a multi variable problem, you'd have way more people dying. If you don't mind my saying Climate change would ever be killing poverty is killed way more people through history merlin What would you say to this argument and I'm not for essential rebellion at all, but what I have done is I, this issue into the forefront of everyone's minds. They ve publicize it. We now talk about. there on the front page of every newspaper, isn't it. Something to be said, for that, no really is

That's largely recently bias. We talking about it before we were go back and look We were talking about this already leads to the point of nausea before this happened, It's the same with any campaigning movement yale. I was in the peace movement when they got rid of nuclear crews, missiles with people in the and payments we did vats, and I look too. Therefore, we didn't I was always geopolitics as to why that happened, and then, ultimately, the soviet union collapsed because we I've spent them. They were there. His dynamics that led to the outcome. Peace movement actually have very what to do with it? They heavy she's alive in the general population event was a vehicle for change. In that particular instance, then, yes, would have been fine, but he wasn't and isn't in this case com instantly reminding people about climate change. How does that help particularly

Government was already working on the committee on culture change process that pre dated. extinction. Rebellion forming they produced the report then after they just started and the governments had yet we we will sign up to that report in four years, in making an extinct, rebellious and yes, we did that that you didn't know you didn't not so I don't want to decry, because I was there and most of them people who sign up to the movement are doing it because they're scared for the future. and that's not an irrational thing to be here. You can be pushed too far. with that. Nevertheless, as a young person is correct to be concerned- and they just want to do something and to be heard, that doesn't go for the likes of. We have a political activists behind the movement and he ain't you.

Nah. German here is a very nice amiable guy, but yeah visa political acts of agencies are far left activist who wants to overthrow the state. Has I hope in Hell of doing it, but nevertheless that's he's modus operandi, but I ain't gonna quit The sort of change is gonna, make anyone's lives any better, and I think this you call that acts and say yes, the issue is important for this process. that was going on before isn't being pushed by that movement per se. Then we can start have since will conversations about. Well. Why should we need to change, because what they are doing is distracting attention by saying something big needs to happen. And swimming is already happening and the question is no one's paying attention and holding a council, because that way involved with his cartoon level discussions going on over here, So over my, I government isn't being held kinds for zira wise,

because none of the opposition parties disagree with the objective of zero and because all communications in our campaign communications. They went criticise them on nice, because it would be helpful now, that's not Political opposition is based work, the only way providing real political opposition of moment. Ah the and he met zero people, the people who would do any of it all who, done things like demanding the commission, climate change release their costings for their programme, and I refuse to do it, so he told them to court, and I will say one or two of these figures do not add up should be happening because they probably. cutting corners and doing things that people do when they think no one's. Looking, because that's what hands? That's, not a political thing. I just happens, bureaucracy politics. Everyone gets away with what they think they'll get away with that. Why you have scrutiny, and so if you please

who parties are not going to scrutinise the government on this area because he's all campaign messaging that you say A problem for us and extinction rebellion are over. There saying what we need to overthrow the government doesn't actually help. That conversation is all I dunno made the longer the show goes on, though I sought to agree with them for balance been an absolute pleasure really genuinely to have this conversation from from a sensible perspective is quite reassuring. Frankly, in some ways, so before coming on before we ask not only our last question on the internet, but also our special questions. The locals tolerable, where they can find your work on line and follow up on this chair and and and find more things that you put another. So most. My content goes onto my youtube channel. If you just simply search on youtube from Alan baker that will come up and I also have a website at milan baker dont nets, then little bits drill, I vow now on twitter at milan baker. Thank you very much, madam

before we go to our local questions. We always have a one final question, which is what the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be well. I think that we point for choice. To be honest, I'm gonna give you two quick ones robin just one, so quick one is how different the economic dinah he's going to be as we move on to a stable or declining population base, our thriving economy of the last fifty two hundred years have been based on a rapidly increasing population. Already, with china, because they don't allow huge men of immigration. They now suddenly confronting the real constraints that a stable populations gonna they only emerging superpower, vera banks, take america and suddenly that dumping in to this democratic, real issue. I know you can change all these equations years over it.

Hope your number coming on here and say. Well, of course, in one hundred years will be economic growth is going to be happening. You have. All of that is based on what happened in the past and, what's coming the future, is demonstrably gonna be different, because we can negotiate our way around that we can't have twenty billion people in a hundred years. So he's gonna make a big difference. The other thing I would say, the huge difference that the emergence of artificially in telling vince is gonna make on the battlefield so much the tree technology with artificial intelligence, is, pushing us logically into where we were thirty years ago with nuclear weapons is just that it would be very easy for us to miss the fact that we ve entered a new paradigm of destruction, before unleash it here with me clear weapons. We worked out very quickly that vision the chief, the scale where

the disincentive to use them kicked in june, only if we had a we used it and it kicked changes. I know. Maybe we shouldn't we nearly dead. We have, clothes, but we didn't. officially intelligence in the bathroom is going the same singularity objective of Chinese want to do, which is to use artificial intelligence, to mean that things move too fast for humans to keep up with, to understand? What's going on you have a western saying? We do not want that to happen. We always want a human decision maker to be the one who decides whether somebody dies you do once I making that decision chinese saying once the voices, the whole power of eye is going to be very, can think a lot faster than human beings ever can and you see to build that into a swarm of a thousand tiny drones, all sorts of things. Things like that. Can completely change the name.

of what we think of us as a balance of power in the world. As we understand it of moments, we should work we'll be talking about my delivery move a meal blasted man grandma, like youtube, algorithmic withdrawn. I want fancy say exactly. Malin has been an absolute pleasure. I'm sure we'll have you back to talk about more stuff. It we ve got wrap up here, though, so. Thank you for being here, and thank you for watching and listening, we will see very soon with another brilliant interview like this one oral shop, all of them go out and sell and you came on and for those of you who, like trigonometry on the dog, is also available. Podcast, tighter and see you soon guys State level communism has been terrible for the environment by and large. Whenever has been pushed to scale

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