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Mallen Baker is the host of Dangerously Reasonable, where he provides analysis on politics, science, and particularly the bit where they bump into each other - https://www.youtube.com/c/MallenBaker/featured
*Recorded on 3rd February 2022*
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Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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the problem is, people are thinking of it as a green revolution, because the thing
that they would most heights
for us to solve the problem of climate change.
a world that looks exactly like it does right now, right with climate change, a low and welcome to trigonometry on Frances
sir, I'm constance interest and vicious and showed for you if you want all these conversations with fascinating people are berlin.
today is a writer and youtube. Madam baker. Welcome to trigonometry iq
great. Have you on the show before we get into the conversation, is gonna be a very interesting one. I tell
everybody a little bit about who are you Howie way, while what has been your journey through life that lead you to be sitting here talking to us, where?
oh, it's. Probably a journey of full part
which is first of all.
was campaigning cause when I was a a youngster we
literally for that global nuclear war was about to break out any minute. So
drew me into campaigning, which led to me living for a period of time in a plastic bag outside the mandate of a nuclear research base mom, and we have all been them his. I hope you are against eyes. You re against the global nuclear war. I thought he was a bad idea to be fair. I much was certainly true. I would say that I was right and wrong in equal measure during those times, but that's a longer discussion. Thanks,
then was politics, because I got fed up of campaigning because about saying no to stuff overtime
Surely we should be to say what we actually want to help? Instead, we we say yes to something, and I was under the strain,
impression that you went politics. I know I know I was not even you, for I ended up in the green party, became culture of uk green party for awhile,
I realise that wasn't
clean organization, but wanted to make it so fit for changing anything very much. I need
in the lived aims for a while until
the point when I realized that actually I'm not build a politics, I'm a pragmatist non, not
remotely ideological I don't enjoy.
factions, I'm always looking for the objective
the solutions, so
to be good people in politics, but I realized that wasn't me and I have to say
I don't think I feel
a huge amount of fellow feeling driver those parties
in the modern incarnation, I've been a floating vote ever fed
I've been is corporate social responsibility, which
I was talking to.
major corporations, some of your top footsie one hundred,
please about their environmental impact, about re social responsibilities, not
be confused with woke corporations. Phases distinction is important, but
We not very interesting.
and that was with business in the community which to a membership organization that has a lot of atop chief executives and gay.
So I was an interesting. I
on vat universe of people
making decisions for huge corporations with lots of power and influence and handsome times change, goes through those sources spheres.
And finally now here I am with the youtube china, where I stepped away from that and ended up going back to first principles.
Of beet becoming curious again about will. What is really,
about what's going on having
started vaginal thinking. I was gonna, be carrying on doing what I'd always been doing, which supporting change
makers who are working in different spheres ultimate.
We have started to do a few debunking videos and got really curious as to what
actually, hang on a moment, I thought this was going to be debunking vase, but the closer you look at it.
actually we some real substance to this argument that language really are in charge. Yet, quite so, I worry fashioned what I was doing in two stepping aside for,
the polarization I'm just asking the questions about. What is what is the research really say, and does
actually mean what people popularly would have you believe and that has been fed,
to all sorts of topics and largely where we
scientific realities bump into the political sphere which using
increasingly happening, as we all know, I'm actually
he's gonna become more not less for factor of the next few decades, so as well
a difficult dilemmas lie with grey areas that I find so interesting and you ve got
like youtube. China was watching it of the past couple of days to do research, and you did this brilliant video that really
men on safety is an.
all this safety is. Miss pie in our society and the fool when
Where would I was talking with constantine? We realised that he also linked in with the main topic.
we're gonna be talking about which is climate change so
could we have first? Will your thoughts on safety? Is him and how we ve seen it rapidly progress from the moment when you were a child? In fact, yes,
is interesting because over
first time
twenty years of my life, it was always a running joke about
you asked society changes you you can tell how old you are by how
don't you moan about how things are different to how they were when you were younger
and there was always a running joke about health and safety, your health and safety-
he was always a thing, but I've got mad sort of thing and yet beyond that
when you look at where we are now and the mindset that we have now you realize what has gone beyond the joke.
and he really struck home. For me, first of all, when I did a video roused comparing the current pandemic, the recent pandemic shall we say with
nineteen, fifty seven asian flu, which was,
not identical but was broadly in the same zone in terms of veal, the harm the health harmful created,
but of course how society reacted too. It was completely different
mostly we just carried on with life as normal? There was some adaptations. Are people made of interest?
thing was. It wasn't a political issue, it just wasn
I mean there was a vaccine that was produced relatively quickly and I think government support hell. That's happened. There was no
I join in amerika the next year. I think I'm the incumbent lost but
That was nothing to do with it. It was not a party political issue at all and the reason that
was that people just didn't have the expectation
the government was there to keep them safe from the virus
disease happened and
He first really serious disease came along. Then people would have to organise awaited to deal with that if houses
he might be over might be overcome. Then, of course, for government
to put resources intellectual that doesn't happen, but otherwise
most people just didn't thing
that was what was there to do now has changed. Obviously,
I know all about the lockdown visas we ve seen over the last couple of years and they
but no leaders, even
who started well with a pandemic have ended well,
not even the same
lee just in the
But they are now seriously
happy there as well. Not even there
Any of the leaders come through the whole two years well
and arguably that is because the expectations now on what the government can.
And should provide for you is an individual has.
gone beyond the basis of what we can actually deliver an vase
has gone hand in hand with this view that its words, keep a safe
first job of government is to keep a safe, and that was always
the case, that was the old hogs in your contract with the state
leviathan state was values there to protect us from
java and ourselves
heads with falling about. Was you wanna be protected
from foreign enemies and from crimson
quality in your own exaggerate, that's it that's what he was talking about absolutely but over time, but has become laid up and lay it up and particularly value
in the aftermath of world war? Two, when we had the creation of wealth,
state in a ring, you had more and more layers thrown on all,
which we then we simply absorbed into our expectations, are what government can do for you?
and so now we have ended up in his position where we have been.
officially, wrapped in cotton wool. For for so long that we have
come fragile people
yeah. Where is before
We dealt with adversity by training ourselves to be strong in the face of adversity. By
teaching young people how to cope with,
season difficult
situations and by rail
to kill a mocking bird because it made them feel uncomfortable because those, I was part growing up confronting all of these things and
I walked to school and nobody
fort anything of it, probably ever gonna hoping I get lost to be
my actually just be made,
Nevertheless, no nobody much, commissioner. I think that, with the stance that came out of when I did research about videos so light
I commend the exact moment I was not sent. Seventy eight percent of kids will
to school. When I was
I know right euros to school. When I was seven or eight an
It's an eight percent outrageous
stoning, unethical sites because be traffic got worse
ass. We had all the newspapers telling us about stranger danger and people. They wouldn't let that darlings out, because they were terrified that were a pet predators.
the street corner ends.
The processes, as is just as we have seen it
media hyping up dangerous because it feeds clicks, which
there I ve ever tighter model. We
fees into a terror
mindset amongst the population and then look
to authority, forty to defend
themselves from that, and that has
the eighty day. I
weakened, dependent mindset rather than a strong resilience. Citizenship
a nice, a real problem for us
logically it's a big problem, because one of the consequences that seems quite
inevitable. To me, out of this sort of approach is damning.
The government has to do more things and if the guy,
does more things. It means there are more errors of your life that the becomes involved with
I'm not someone who thinks that government is
it has no role in society at all. Of course it does, but the problem
is the government is. It is a very blunt instrument for dealing with lots of issues or you see in the combination round- freedom of expression, for example the government,
can either ban things or it can allow them. He can't have. You can't have the
the ones conversation about well, you are allowed to be a dick, but maybe you shouldn't be right. The government
I can't do that so if we make
The government regulate every element of our relations, every element of our behaviour, every element of our safety,
you ain't gonna end up with a sort of advanced soft authoritarianism? Eventually, vat is what
the dangers the shore and- and you can add to that- the fact that governments are actually just not very good at doing lots of things
Why did we get such a rapid vaccine role actually in these countries because they took it out of the bureaucracies hands and put it into
a small panel which brought together the private sector who are used.
Things quickly into scale,
if they managed to do a much much better job and in soon as they handed it back to the the bureaucracy of the state, it'll gummed up again, so you've got both
tendency of governments to want to
Push you to comply. You, if you want,
If you will insist on getting fat, then now try not you and if nudging won't work I'll put you a bit harder.
And then you marry that with the fact that actually not very good executing, and so
Is you get the worst of all worlds in that sort sense, but we do have a real danger ahead of us, because
as we are moving more towards these big
global issues that we're facing that
towards the technocratic mindset in terms of one of the solutions and how we deal with them.
they tend towards authoritarian solutions.
I didn't say that governments will naturally given servants. I dont see them the likes of
was johnson over lightly successors. Have that as an ambition, particularly but very
a dynamic that you have to actively oppose juncture to push me a direction not to drift vat way.
And I don't see that they have a sufficient vision. Currently to do that
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his last trigger and use our special code, which is, of course trigger was going to Simon at the scene. The worries me as we were talking about authoritarian ism in a few years ago. I would have scoffed at that, but we all sing is a kind of soft authoritarianism which toys
So the whole safety is an issue because you
will the american dominance wanna do to your rug
went to silence and by the time you gotta get, have been assassinated. Yeah exactly are I pay joy? That would be bad.
anyway, that would be a bad night magazine that happens. We will have the exiles. We hope you will remain boss.
If you look at what the american government doing that china silence silencing neutrality platform, him
and they would argue that they doing that because they want to inverted commas, keep people site via
right so that he can spread his in inverted commas. Misinformation
we are seeing is safe to use them as far as I'm concerned,
being used as a way to control of its soft authoritarianism, do a great many ideas
and I'll tell you why it's happening. I think we're
is that we have now come across two big issues.
Where it
be easy for the elites, if you like the the government, but also the mainstream media types and various people in the same orbits, to see
That, though, is the right thing to do, and people need to be persuaded to go along with it. So
in terms of a pandemic- and I also intend to climate change- you have
The situation where the population need to be persuaded to do the right thing
vat has turned what used to be streams of community
asian streams of information from government where they were
here to tell us what was going on values.
I become streams of what some would describe as propaganda.
but in any case he's campaign messaging when I first.
darted out, dealing with climate change,
Susan. You know I've always
half Y ever dealt with on the corporate responsibility stuff was teeth showing
Companies have had to respond to the climate change agenda racing up in dealing with for decades, however, extend,
rebellion as matters box of frogs. So
in a few videos, critiquing the
stream campaigner end and some of the things about.
a demanding would just didn't make any sense.
various peoples. I won't what you say is absolutely right. It's just not helpful to say at this point.
I have heard that so many times since some other things he kicked back against the insect apocalypse because
the language being used. There was overblown apocalyptic language again and when you look to the research it didn't support some of the time
line messaging. Yes, further problems,
insect declines in the research shows up, but not what was being claimed and then again, one came back and said
Everything you said was correct. Scientifically all the papers you cited were correct, you didn't miss
in form, but it wasn't helpful messaging and an energy
underpinned for me now how much of this is turned into campaign messaging? This is the problem.
This is why people will start to distrust. Well, maybe
told you. Why did we get some stance during the pandemic and not others, because some stats were considered to be helpful in
underpinning the message that says, you should be worried about base. Therefore, we should comply with the measures that we bring play and some were less helpful,
that, although very arguably more helpful in understanding what we're hank was going on, which some
really wanted to do. What you're really talking about money is a very good point, which is
it's very sneaky what they ve done, what they ve done is they ve? They traded the signs for public health.
right. These are two very different thing. Science is about finding what the truth is. Public health is about getting
able to do what you want right and they say
If your questioning the public health,
not following the science,
these. Things are not the same thing and climate change, which is the issue that we were originally going to talked about, and let's get into it now, because you've kind of brought us there very neatly
seems to me to be exactly the same rights, because
what you ve got. On the one hand, is a bunch of people running around
gluing themselves to trains going
absolutely ape shit over every tiny. Little thing that happens,
and the science- isn't really being talked about properly, what you,
god is the extreme end on one end and those other people who think it's not happening
I know I'm no signs scientist, I don't know which one of them is right. I'm just saying that I think
The messaging is mine.
it's more like public health than it is like science, the way we're having the conversation of their climate change. So what
is the truth about climate change, because you know we ve had Raja harlem from extinction. Rebellion on the show we ve had Patrick ma
I think it's all a bunch of whores shit. We ve
beyond lombard? He thinks it is happening, but it's not a big deal like where are you on? That is so
This is one of the frustrations if you get involved with us, because of course what you have with most of those carrots as there is that you have people on me,
opposite extremes and people.
often say, was to get the balance of the issue. You you
on the one side, and then you talk riverside
majority. This issue lives in the middle and that's not simpler, but nonetheless we start there
the core science. The core science is the planet. Warming is the
the burning of fossil fuels, causing it is pretty clear and
I mean there are multiple streams of evidence that all points in the same direction. So when scientists have science, he settled we're talking thy back that basic core wishes.
supported by multiple streams of evidence all away
very, very straightforward and
hard to argue, with most of the sceptics now bar
Few of the out tonight you have the scientific
immunity is engaged in it
spirits. He against us all types.
a they largely accept that much. The question I really comes through was so what so? What does that
enforced, can have in the future and particularly,
and what does that mean in terms of what we should do about it and have a problem with climate
changes are people conflate, the two so because
The extreme campaigners go around trumpeting
version of the science which is cherry picked from the most do missed elements confined, then people will,
confuse very messaging with the scientific underpinning
I'm sorry, it's very easy van. If you're on the icons,
if mindset to say well, yeah
is associated with those wild eyed loons vessel. The whole thing is wrong:
and that is a real mistake, what
if hiding the uk over the last couple of decades
a bit of a privilege in that both the can.
event and the socialist end all agreed on the core of reality. This is kind of what's happening and we could
disagree about what we do have. I said: yeah you can,
they conservative approach to tackling climate change, you can have a socialist approach to tackling climate change. Phobia
Commonalities will also differences. That's what we should be arguing about
talking about fish all knights deal
reality and in our view, like cats, in a bag about what we do about it? Fine and then
in america you had your swingers
quite different, and I tend to thing- is cause our goal.
I rose as an early spokesperson than that, help to polarize it because he was a very partisan,
but for whatever reason you got one side that is going on there
on the extinction rebellion end of the debate shall we say losing its drifting in that direction and they went
On the other side, that's faint on the trumpian and drifting in the other direction, and they can't
agree on reality, which is a real problem
I always thought that eventually,
What we had achieved would start to drift over there and moderate republicans would start put things in a modern, democratic, restart provings in a kind of
might be happening. We have away way round,
which is not a good news. Really, I'm part of
is because of incompetence. Not politicians because
have a conservative government was not overly conservative and
what we are doing on net zero.
Has some good underpinnings,
Ben veils are generally incompetent, I'm afraid
when you got people, we inexorably party who event lumping behold goal of net zero as part of what they dislike in vat
creating then the same
dynamics and political dynamic.
We see in america that could play on
Well and could play I really badly and it's too early to tell which we're gonna go man. I've got
go this question which always ask people when it comes to this on every issue you get your extreme on on either side.
Not always on whatever issue tight fine. Why is it that
We have the extreme less same things. You know we're gonna go fifty good harvest left the world,
stoned all the rest of it not learnt to their opinion, maybe
right. Maybe then I don't know, but then why is it that opinion is in funneled into our kids and his wife
We accepted
then the media start talking about it and we ve got this generation of people who are complete.
indeed terrifying cause. I think one day they gonna white cop in the world's gonna, be on fire, but wake up yet boy
This is a real problem, europe
clearly right and one of the things that I discovered most surprising,
prize me the most when I started doing that for youtube deep dive videos? Where did for research on these was just how often
The campaign messages that I had entirely accepted were was standard and rising reopened,
Michael, go repeating the over the government had entirely accepted, so you look into them. They fell apart. Fifty harvests that
has come from. Nowhere
has no scientific underpinning whatsoever. I think some
detracting track, take back to where it wasn't came from a campaign thing that was then misquoted and just
just not true, simply not,
and yet it is repeated over and over to the point.
Where free repetition it has become accepted. This fact and michael go, who will repeat it because he expects that its fight, and he is trust
who are these while obvious, is obvious ways such a good dancer? You could say that this is a real problem, because then, when you start to, then take that as a magical
some process for kids.
then you are storing up these.
Deeply ingrained attitudes, name that become the next generations instincts they got instincts.
I receive a world that is
One of our biggest worries articles
always been the case that the
teaching community who do fantastic jobs, many great teachers in their eyes
a whole? They tend to lean left
towards us. As we know, I would say that very leftwing won't you
and they were when I was brought up on a year by just so that profession, most of us survive arab bringing perfectly well, and most
kids are very quick to spot a certain amount of bullshit in their education.
Yeah raises certain: might certain amount you can just relax a little bit? On the other hand,
when he comes to something where violence
encouraging your deepest insecurities and fears. By saying you have a claim.
Mrs, is going to Helen handcart, those
one extinction, rebellion person who goes to kids and says you're, vichy reason. What are you gonna grow old species, whether whether even grow up?
no signs to support that whatsoever, but nevertheless this is being pushed
kids advisory seen millennials these days. They are grown up, we're millennials as well, so that just wait testament bullets manner. You haven't
addressed my earlier question, which I think is important to do. If we're gonna have this part of the conversation with what is
The truth about
how dangerous climate changes, how quickly it's happening. What sort of measures might be sensible to consider in response etc? Tell us that, because I think
that's really dance? Is that everybody is looking for his light? We keep
tall does a disaster
I don't think there is a disaster coming in the next twelve years as a or c said, we're all gonna die. You know all of that is not happening. So how early
It is the problem, our biggest problem, and what are some of the reasonable solutions that we might consider. Two ok
The reason why we should say confusing is because media has pushed extreme scenarios. Yet now the ipcc, the body that collects together the science and published a report every few years v,
produce number scenarios based on what we do, because you can't
predict the future without settling
how many fossil fuels are we gonna to burn in the meantime
on the basis of what we kind of said, what we going to do and the fact that we won't do all of it, but we'll do some of that fear. We are on a
stream scenario. The
stream worst case scenario, is what tends to get often quoted and as one of its problems singled ass epa point. Five is, as it was
that has been one of the problems that always the clique page.
Listen will talk about the x
in cases where everyone thinks that we see this is gonna happen, eminently that doesn't mean
that various no capacity for things to go seriously wrong. You're in it
scale that we would care about you
he's absolutely a possibility
Is he a high probability not on the current basis? But basically
probability
there will be some problems that we need to deal with like love. So
One of the challenges that we have is that we have grown is a population on this planet but population
is starting to even I, but is very, very high for the four for states planet, but we have on
and we are currently now using all the agricultural land as much land space agricultural land, as we likely to have ever.
Forwards. So we have here a barrier there. We can make it more productive, but we don't have any more.
Now the question is: when you have eleven billion people, as we will end up, having dependent on particularly a number of bread basket, regions that have to be highly productive to fatal those people.
become very vulnerable to shocks to the system you dont everyone's resiliency left in a system. Ok, so you might be to create new agricultural land further
north
Climate change is, but then you lose some in the tropics as well as they become less suitable for
for growing, we're not gonna have a lot more than we ve got so then-
If you get extreme weather events, which we expect to get more of, you may well have several years in a row where you get severe shocks to food systems, which will then have big knock on effects for human society.
Those are the sorts of things but a high
It's a map because
depend on certain shock events that will become more frequent happening,
an unfortunate sequence unbending,
Quincy could be very serious, are examples, venues corsairs things, I've rising sea levels and home
if human habitation is, is on coastal areas and divisive disruption and cause. That's gonna cause
Taiwan I'm less worried about that, because that will be expensive. It we're painting the backside, but that's not life threatening,
wave at some of those of us who are key things are,
Now. What should we do about it? Well, net zero. Is,
policy goal that we absolutely have to do
because ultimately, carbon
oxide stays rounding atmosphere for quite a long time. You you have to stop adding to the natural carbon cycle eighties.
relatively imbalance, revise our contribution but songs
we keep adding to. It is light and overflow.
in bar fewer we reviewed.
put more and more in overflows uns until we stop adding to it. Anyone stabilize it will always continue.
No timescales. Europe should be as fast as possible, but not faster,
and this is where we get the overlap into where people can
lay the science with the policy because we ve
if the committee on climate change would have looked at over different aspects of the the electricity grid and industry and so on, and what has to happen to change all of us. I did a reasonably good prank
I take practical job of of
in all of that, and they came up with this week.
Get to net zero by twenty. Fifty we
Our system wavered. It is working correctly, so not.
Laying waste to the economy in any way, shape or form, which is what we want.
Maybe it's gonna take a bit longer than I were expected to take a bit longer, not because circles.
season humans imperfect, we will go very imperfectly, a amazingly and two steps forward and one step back.
Kind of how we are never.
that timescale is a reasonable one. If we do it properly.
Another ten years is reasonable. If we do it properly,
the question is we shouldn't try and do it faster than is feasible?
and the danger is that people are seeing is a one variable problem. Just like the pandemic. I saw
The pandemic was a one variable problem, covert cases, and we act
and every single thing to bring covert cases is done. We shall
He didn't work anyway, but in any case,
The problem has been maximum human welfare when code
it is one variable amongst the number variable- was a new weighing up the cost of a different things, but you gonna do about each of those different things.
and maybe you'd have ended up doing exactly the same, probably not
dynamic, Elise, you would be weighing up, was different factors,
same here.
The single variable, in this case the c o two, because it isn't what we
It is for human society to continue to flourish, for people to be either way,
chief their ambitions for themselves and to live our lives? Why
preserving the
for world which keeps us alive, it's our life support systems and also keeping
the climate within weaving
the bans that will support our future going forward.
What would you say to the bureau lomborg argument, which is that if we introduce this, what's gonna
happen is that energy prices are going to go through the roof for their average person that
and give wrong rise to ever more populous leaders. Who will then pushed back on it, and then everything is doomed,
I don't think you said that you just that it is worth noting alone. That's the tabloid journalist, who may well fox not captain bill,
on all some very good questions ends.
The challenge I have with with beyond
This is some of his errand
It is very useful for his specific answers, but he asked
absolutely some of your questions and when I say that net zero is a policy objective, not policy,
The point is very no
if you do vase, energy prices will go up because there's twenty things you can do and if you do it properly
should be doing in a way. That means that energy prices don't go up and when you say please,
really, what you mean by that well
so at the moment, what we're doing is we are creating
a more morality around the use of fossil fuels, but just now
fossil fuels, bad morally bad so
You want to open up a new thing in the north sea for the gas, bad dungeon
new coal, mine, bad, don't dirt, and yet
if we are going to make any condescends, will progress through two net zero, but when fifty or twenty sixty vanish-
a paper and we can be using a lot of fossil fuels are declining amount of fossil fuels over a period of time.
Managing a declining industry is perfectly possible and come
These can make public good profit out of a declining industry, raped and overtime,
through history, but
to be a managed decline, because
as I think the head BP said to be a cop twenty six summit, if,
you try to reduce the
fly of a thing before you.
reduced for demand. Then the prices go up an end
Do you believe that it's not me
anything has been happening over the last year we energy prices, but he certainly been a big part of what is driven up energy prices. So this approach
the idea logs have and
Sadly, some of the ideal ongoing governments as well, which you seem
need to push way anything to do with fossil fuels. Rather than saying what we got a plan,
next ten years we're going to use this amount of fossil fuels, and it's going to declines of ants going to declines that how do we supply this in for most cost?
Active way in the way that gives us most energy security and so on, and so on, but he's not
The problem problematic that essentially you're trying to reduce the demand for something that will never be reduced because of the population on for energy, not for fossil fuel energy, but for energy.
and you haven't, got
a ready made replacement the eyes cheaper without some beyond point. Is you
have to invest in technology to make alternative forms of energy cheap enough that
You don't need the levers of government to introduce a because people are just gonna, buy this cheaper energy wherever comes from
you shot, but we don't have a yet some saying yes, oh wow, I dont think
for that is entirely true in that
There are certainly some of the alternative forms of energy have become cheaper, like work, whilst the
renewable forms of energy, have become cheap as a wind, solar, wind and solar that cheaper than than burning yes way. However, however,
the flip side of that is that you need to fail intermittent forms or you need to either be at a store, the energy that they create. Jess and all you need to have to find a way
took to feeling when, when they not pursued, that's what I mean overall as a package: it's not cheaper. Yet not just point. Are we
have the way to make it work without fossil. Whatever way you want to put, it is not enough.
alternative that is cheaper as well. If you are taking all of approves of all the different
she's, always and all of the cons of different energy sources, and you factor in the impact of the use of force
views into that equation then
drives you necessarily to fall.
Seeing the pace on some of the alternatives? Now some of the alternatives are partly workable and we,
become better? We know if we drive him so nuclear technology, for instance,
still for twenty thirty years, because we got scared,
about it after chernobyl, and we,
froze the developments about technology where it was the existing nuclear.
Power stations are using thirty old technology, basically not reassuring
fourth generation hasn't fourth generation nuclear solves a lot of the problems that we were worried about. You
something goes wrong. Plants will shut down safely rather than meltdown vader, create very much
Nuclear waste and family can use nuclear waste
nuclear waste as fuel.
as with anything. If you work
technology to scale when you gradually make it better and you solve problems. So if we work
clean technology to scale as the chinese drinkers. Vacancies misses the technology of the future. If,
You push yourself as pioneers into that space. You become the providers of that technology to the world, so they want
you ve done by
putting money into it when it was less cost effective, as you ve invested in when you take.
Ology, which you then re the costs of investment from by selling it to the world,
the world will go net zero in a blink of an eye when you ve got the cost effective technology that works. How do you
get that you get it by investing in developing that technology.
We already know that nuclear works issues, but we
I ideological stuff going on that. Has
that
Even though we save a razor climate crisis, we also going to be anti nuclear, and you see that
How could you ever come to that conclusion? If you're, simply thinking which is a pragmatic problem to be solved, it's not
It's an ideology that is driving these your boy
germany shutting down nuclear power stations right now and ramps.
Cole when he says that he is going to be a climate leader and by the way, make an extremely vulnerable to russia, which is why the current situation with ukraine, germany, candy, shake as they ve david closed our power stations, and they see us so
near zero if it's taken as a pragmatic engineering problems to be addressed. When is a certain amount of investment in technology that make sense- and I knew
and planning a waiver will avoid the problems
of massive energy price, spikes and so on and so forth.
Not how we're doing it we doing
in these weird ideological, knee jerk, technocratic way where
we- and I may
decisions, based on how difficult
are politically,
more than we are, and I was gonna get the job done, I'm not
he's going to lead to exactly what you described what you ascribed to be on whether he would have only himself now he did say: you're gonna get my balls and errors
yet you come on down the exiles ass. His exact words, absolutely right because of the technocrats who are pushing the solutions at the moment are doing a really bad job of pushing their case.
They are tending towards the authoritarian, which we don't like an
and telling you, wherever you can or county meat and all those sorts of things
again, if you ve been pragmatic about wish you'd start by saying what do people most value, how do we,
reduce the impact of those things, so people
travel.
they value what they eat
and soon as a country comes, I poverty what they do. They start eating more meet its high
prized highly nutritious, so you
start with a pragmatic question is how do we reduce the impact of the things that people value, which makes a more likely to come with us on the journey that we need to go on
but what are we doing it all now what we do
is your. We start
Faced with an ideological preference which is up
will consume less may travel less, they drive less, they eat
vegan they do whatever it is that we think is a good lifestyle and what we can do. Is we going to cram that down on them
he's not a winning proposition- I would suggest an yet.
the bbc yoga
soon the BBC's wet climate change. It takes seconds
for they have gone on to meeting eating gone onto flying maker
keep away from it
yet. There are massive impacts in all sorts of areas that are much
more important to talk about, because now bigger impacts that have systemic
Engineering challenges that can be done
scale why
Wouldn't you do those things first? Why won't you focus on those things first and persuade
people that actually you're working on their behalf. You'll be working so that vague,
have more of the things that they value long into the future.
Their kids can have those things as well. I know if
Someone in the future, if you have to turn our answer, we really wanted you to to have this, but
Actually we can't get restless
We can't get flights that
works anymore, you're retraining for twenty years and we failed and you're not gonna, be
the fly as much. Maybe people say: well, we trust, but you did try now we're gonna say that now, because
because what they see, a bunch of people whose first preference
the crammed our lifestyle restrictions on people. First preference
and is also was well man. You're, not gonna, win hearts and minds in doing that, and if we really want this green,
revolution as it is to work, you're gonna need
you're gonna need that you're gonna need ordinary people to buoyant, but
you're, saying to people. Oh, you can
employing you're not gonna, be able to eat me
You see the elites doing that very thing, freud around the world and doing the thing
which you are allowed to do any more people I'm gonna buy? And yes, and
the problem is. People are thinking of it as a green revolution, because the thing that they
with most hates is for us to solve
The problem of climate change, too.
A world that looks exactly like it does right now right without climate. This is what I was gonna ask him alone, because I tell you what I see in it as well. There is a
on a broader thing going on in western society, which poorly I cover my book, which is there's a sort of self loathing in the west and
the reason, I think a lot of people feel
Why antagonistic to this green shit is the is like you
want people to suffer. You want
to take away from people the things that they enjoy, because we are bad because
of colonialism and industrialization and whatever else that the west is what you want.
I to suffer for that, and this is your punishment. We're gonna, raise your energy prices, you're not going to have any meat you're not going to travel anywhere, there's a
of like they love
that shit. They love to to to feel like they're, taking things away from people that we must be punished for our sins. I think it feels like that's a lot of people I am kobe did as well uncovered the same. Yes,
Important thing is not to confuse
Mindset is alive and well in the heads of the extreme environment.
Campaigners and,
a number of other mouthpieces, amin you'll, see echoes of that in various places. Definitely used
we'll have to divorce that from the actual call science has said here, we still have a pragmatic problems that we have to do something about.
The challenge is always when people can slightly too
because he's very easy to fight back on my right to believe they Botswana think I'm with you, I'm like look. If you need
if you want to raise my taxes, to invest in better nuclear energy, go for it
if you want to raise my taxes to make sure
The damage we use is used efficiently without wasting we're like to me. Resource depletion is a big problem.
Pollution. Is a massive problem? Go go for it. I'm happy
two to pay more money. If that's what I need to do for those things
the address
What I don't like, though, is that tinge of punitive action,
for the sins of my former as I do, and I think
maybe writes about the ways being marketed: fires, yes, and its assent
as we said earlier on that all the communications in our campaign, communications,
because we seen his finesse refine out with the pandemic. With
the use of a nudge unit to manipulate us gently and suddenly to complying
This is a real problem, because you have already started producing documents. Looking.
Well, how do you start to nudge people into the right behaviors on climate change,
now on the one sense it's a
question and discussion to have
to say well if people,
people's behaviors are less than optimal for themselves.
How would you encourage them to address that
I would encourage change if, if,
a higher percentage of america is obese, then
really should be the case and unease the case anywhere else, why's that and and I
You telling them that they're dreadful people- and I should change- probably isn't going to work. So what would work asking the question of how you persuade people? That's one thing per month:
we them in a way that they don't even notice your doing more
She's doing over time,
it's gonna be a line amongst us
over time you going to a supermarket.
you probably won't even notice. There's is a smell of freshly by breeding year anyway,
care to use, there's no bakery, not supermarket, because I've worked out very phases
that lovely sent all freshly grain coffee people bible
in a inflows? You two bible? Ok,
so we know the culprits,
borderline evil, but the is relatively harmless relatively harmless. I don't know
Invite particularly maybe some people do
but he never gonna go supermarket. If you want or not shop in supermarkets, you gonna go to a different kind,
it's not really. No, that's true, but you go into a supermarket. You don't know, that's what they're doing, and it's all very subliminal in that sort of sense,
if I'm gonna, use subliminal techniques to scare you because of a panther
and they want you to stay at home and then
and suddenly everyone is so terrified they want. The government
locked down again, and so the government locks down again that's what everybody wants, but everybody wanted it because the government scheduled in the first place what the
he's going on with that,
if you want to do that with climate change, then yes you're gonna have
populist reaction and deservedly so egg
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I said to Roger hallam: we would you
King, about my time. In my peace
women days and young lhasa.
my colleagues were in jail like he's going to jail now he line you should get back into that eyes.
Fine words are when you take over I'll, be in jail, sing nina, I absolutely hold today where we are going.
the rise of the soft,
well for a terry of of. Ultimately,
this, takes you
there are some real confrontations come and that such
good point, because areas, I'm talking with a friend who is conspiratorial in nature and all
the stalled upon them on sends a conspiracy theories, but now just looks hockey's silver profit from going to be honest with you,
and he and she said to me
can you imagine in five years or ten years, or maybe even twenty years? Can you rule out lockdown for climate change?
and I saw about us- and I was gonna scoffing muscle after everything- this
and I genuinely come here
I think I still would I'm still holding on to reality by my fingernails. I think all of us were, I think, undoing anyway, largely.
because
it's such a slow burn thing. It would make sense now: ok, there's quite alone
Things that we ve done. I've lost couple years didn't necessarily make sense for no
with a with a virus. A pandemic is demonstrably a short term thing. You get shorter waves, and so on.
But there is nothing to do with the release of co2 into the atmosphere. Is that short term, where locking
he's going to make a huge difference, and he didn't lockdown is a word. What you could say is and by the way, I'm not his concerts, hardly minded friend, I'm just playing devil's advocate, but you could say: look you know just locked up
you just you,
can only drive a certain number of miles a year without a special permits
you can only have one fly a year.
Unless you're going to visit a family-
employees on their death bed or for a funeral or
can only have X, number
kilograms of beef, chicken pork. Whatever you like
We're really talking about is restricting people's freedom to do what?
I think is the right thing for them, based on document that we are all
Oh, yes, aggravating vision, that vision is definitely a possibility and
right for me, besides ignacio he's a possibility in the same way that split now play the lead. At least I feel better about the alternative possibility on the other wing is but frumpy in future, where the populist.
Clash means that we say sought all that we don't believe any of it anyway. So we're just going to view burn
While we can.
And maybe somewhere in the middle, an always, but ultimately, if a middle bit fails if the centre fails to hold. As I say, one of those two is the extremes we can lurch to and maybe we'll lurch to have a one and then in
action to that will end up being pulled back to the other. But ultimately,
the game is to avoid over, and that means
really trying to bring us back to a wife,
polar ice state, but we becoming back to the sensible sense of this country. You,
to run.
Does he still run I've? I think he's still runs, I'm not sure anymore.
to run on the centre, because our
full system works, so we vote for government I get in his letter counteracting lately. I have to say well, you're right, you see, I don't they govern, denounces jerking, you ass, an owl, correct and
if I may not weakening boot from yes now about pushes people back to the centre, yes by and large, and
various parties, their fortunes have risen and fallen when they ve taxes.
center and when vapor, competent and-
to the elections of informing lost on competence.
If now and then name will get one where we got two incompetence. If I didn't have very often
whereas in america and vacant, govern they got gridlock
so bad, but basically whoever get saying they not really governing at all. So they never.
have consequences, because I can always point we have. As I say, we would have done great things, but they stopped us and that therefore it
created the incentives and drift further and further to the extremes. Where is he?
if you are able to govern the biden was was elected, I as ok, you run a government, you wanna do
stupid stuff. You can
you you're the government now and that would
that would actually solve my pretty quickly, because then they will be held accountable for their actions,
That would be a very sobering thing now we we have had that. I think overlaps
You decades
Ah, we still, I dont, know the breaks it number,
the dynamic for populist movements, stuff
is very hard to see where our core now is. But if,
still there was. I think it is right.
raise everything to play for in talking to the centre the problems we have a government that won't find for its vision. When Margaret thatcher first talk about climate change,
she argued the case. Why conservatives, whether natural home for voting,
that the environment,
you could agree with our cases. You cannot, but she put forward.
Conservative case why they were based on the environment.
The party would perform their case where they were better and you understood visions that were being put forward.
more vision, as the current government go around net zero.
His war vision as the current gm go around. Anything it's because you don't have any Margaret thatcher's any more. That's why you call the extremists campaigners saying the world is going to end and we have to do all this stuff,
whose arguing with them when I
is there arguing for nuclear disarmament in my naive, charming way begun
was saying: don't do or he said, he's an idiot, I'm they were
kind of right or via the point as well, but they put the
haste. I made the argument. I said if we don't drink
these arguments and
blame, why we need to do what we need to do the public,
I understand why we're doing it with
simply not doing that vote, the conservative government has no
conservative vision for net zero, so
conservatives in the party saying what is
net, zero stuff about racism, conservative and then
people on the outside, looking at extinction, rebellion and
thinking. Well, that's what net zero must be about,
one of the reasons why people are conflicting science with the extreme
I'm paying solution and the problem is as well is if the government doesn't have a clear vision and it gives credence told and knocked at the far left them far right was that I was the point that you will make a as act, and this is like, I said: if, if you had a gun
what they were laboratory, frank went: look, we ve got a problem. The science is pretty clear. We ve got the problem
that's looming, we need to invest in technology too, to solve this problem right and that's why
Worship of our budget will go to
words. What is the best form
nuclear energy? How do we get wind and solar power,
design better batteries. Elon musk cares of grant whatever right what
simple person would go. No, actually, I think you'll bullocks.
I don't think anyone would mean some people would, of course, but the vast majority of people will be like well. Okay, that's fair enough! I mean we spend a billion here, a billion on other stuff if we threw a few billion and finding new technology that is going to is going to address. Some of these issues
But that is the way the conversation been had an you're right. It is on the government because then,
engaging aggressively yes with this,
nonsense and going look. We think that
It is important and here
our plan to deal with it
Gretta somebody needs to go back to school right if they did.
you would have a much easier time of convincing people to get support behind cause. Yes,
lily and across greater, is now old enough to be wrong. So we set out its lack of a cop twenty six conference. It was the first time when she wasn't invited onto the main platform. You'll have noticed
and she said her usual thing about all vegan, going blah blah blah and we're not doing anything either.
this time no news stories are appearing saying greatly recently
gentlemen very respectful ways. I actually, we think gretta might be wrong of areas. Have a well she's come of age and just say whenever she liked before when people find it charming, but if you're these pay,
in that conference whole who have been working and slaving trying to make these thing work trying to make
things really genuinely difficult ones
trying to do was never been done before. It is incredibly difficult, reneging making my mistake
can get it wrong and deals with things. Nevertheless,
been really trying to do it having one site. That's what you do. It was nothing
charming when they're fifteen, not so much when they're nineteen.
which is why she's outside for conference gazettes, where outsiders live an uneasy.
because they would love let in as part of the process, but you have to stop being an outsider of, if you're, to do that,
She can't do it because she's become
of that extreme campaign group, community,
and their messages are not the messages of insiders joints too, to work solutions. When orange
you'd solution now what?
extinction rebellion, wants to happen
They can't tell you they won't tell you, they won't
Was it a policy because there are no policies but would deliver zero emissions in five years wooden fro hundred?
upon hundreds of millions of people into poverty.
and, if you are looking at a is a multi variable problem, you'd have way more people dying. If you don't mind my saying
Climate change would ever be killing poverty
is killed way more people through history merlin
What would you say to this argument and I'm not for essential rebellion at all, but what I have done is I,
this issue into the forefront of everyone's minds. They ve publicize it. We now talk about.
there on the front page of every newspaper, isn't it.
Something to be said, for that, no really is
That's largely recently bias. We
talking about it before we were go back and look
We were talking about this already
leads to the point of nausea before this happened,
It's the same with any campaigning movement yale. I was in the peace movement when they got rid of
nuclear crews, missiles with people in the
and payments we did vats, and I look too. Therefore, we didn't
I was always geopolitics as to why that happened, and then, ultimately, the soviet union collapsed because we I've spent them. They were there.
His dynamics that led to the outcome. Peace movement actually have very
what to do with it? They
heavy she's alive in the general population event was a vehicle for change. In that particular instance, then, yes,
would have been fine, but he wasn't and isn't
in this case com
instantly reminding people about climate change.
How does that help particularly
Government was already working on the committee on culture
change process that pre dated.
extinction. Rebellion forming they produced
the report then after they just started and the governments had yet
we we will sign up to that report
in four years, in making an extinct, rebellious and yes, we did that that you didn't know you didn't not so
I don't want to decry, because I was there and most of them
people who sign up to the movement are doing it because they're scared for the future.
and that's not an irrational thing to be here. You can be pushed too far.
with that. Nevertheless, as a young person is correct to be concerned- and they just want to do something and to be heard,
that doesn't go for the likes of. We have a political activists behind the movement and he ain't you.
Nah. German here is a very nice amiable guy, but yeah visa political acts of agencies are far left activist who wants to overthrow the state. Has
I hope in Hell of doing it, but nevertheless that's he's modus operandi, but I ain't gonna quit
The sort of change is gonna, make anyone's lives any better, and I think this
you call that acts and say yes, the issue is important for this process.
that was going on before isn't being pushed by that movement per se.
Then we can start have since will conversations about. Well. Why should we need to change, because what they are doing is distracting attention by saying something
big needs to happen.
And swimming is already happening and the question is no one's paying attention and holding
a council, because that way
involved with his cartoon level discussions going on over here,
So over my, I government isn't being held kinds for zira wise,
because none of the opposition parties disagree with the objective of zero and because all
communications in our campaign communications. They went
criticise them on nice, because it would be helpful now, that's not
Political opposition is based work, the only way
providing real political opposition of moment. Ah the
and he met zero people, the people who would do any of it all who,
done things like demanding the commission, climate change release their costings for their programme, and I refuse
to do it, so he told them to court, and I will say one or two of these figures do not add up
should be happening because
they probably.
cutting corners and doing things that people do when they think no one's. Looking, because that's what hands? That's, not a political thing. I just happens, bureaucracy politics. Everyone gets away with what they think they'll get away with that.
Why you have scrutiny,
and so if you please
who parties are not going to scrutinise the government on this area because he's all campaign messaging that you say
A problem for us and
extinction rebellion are over. There saying what we need to overthrow the government doesn't actually help. That conversation is all I dunno made the longer the show goes on, though I sought to agree with them for balance
been an absolute pleasure really genuinely to have this conversation from from a sensible perspective is quite reassuring. Frankly,
in some ways, so
before coming on before we ask not only our last question on the internet, but also our special questions. The locals tolerable,
where they can find your work on line and follow up on this chair and and and find more things that you put another. So
most. My content goes onto my youtube channel. If you just simply search on youtube from Alan baker that will come up
and I also have a website at milan baker dont nets,
then little bits drill,
I vow now on twitter at milan baker. Thank you very much, madam
before we go to our local questions. We always have a one final question, which is what the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be well.
I think that we point for choice. To be honest, I'm gonna give you two quick ones robin just one, so
quick one is how different the economic dinah
he's going to be as we move on to a stable or declining population base, our
thriving economy of the last fifty two hundred years have been based on a rapidly increasing population. Already,
with china, because they don't allow huge men of immigration. They now suddenly confronting the real constraints that a stable populations gonna
they only emerging superpower, vera banks,
take america and suddenly that dumping in to this democratic, real issue.
I know you can change all these equations years over it.
Hope your number coming on here and say. Well, of course, in one hundred years will be economic growth is going to be happening. You have. All of that is based on what happened in the past and, what's coming
the future, is demonstrably gonna be different, because we can negotiate our way around that we can't have twenty billion people in a hundred years. So
he's gonna make a big difference. The other thing I would say,
the huge difference that the emergence of artificially in telling
vince is gonna make on the battlefield so much
the tree technology with artificial intelligence, is,
pushing us logically
into where we were thirty years ago with nuclear weapons is just that
it would be very easy for us to miss the fact that we ve entered
a new paradigm of destruction, before
unleash it here with me
clear weapons. We worked out very quickly that vision
the chief, the scale where
the disincentive to use them kicked in june,
only if we had a we used it and it kicked changes. I know. Maybe we shouldn't we nearly dead. We have,
clothes, but we didn't.
officially intelligence in the bathroom is going
the same singularity objective of Chinese want to do, which is to use
artificial intelligence, to mean that things move too fast for humans to keep up with, to understand? What's going on
you have a western saying? We do not want that to happen. We always want a human decision maker
to be the one who decides whether somebody dies you do
once I making that decision
chinese saying once the voices, the whole power of eye is going to be very, can think a lot faster than human beings ever can and you see
to build that into a swarm of a thousand tiny drones, all sorts of things.
Things like that. Can completely change the name.
of what we think of us as a balance of power in the world. As we understand it of moments, we should work
we'll be talking about my delivery move a meal blasted man
grandma, like youtube, algorithmic withdrawn. I want fancy
say exactly. Malin has been an absolute pleasure. I'm sure we'll have you back to talk about more stuff. It we ve got wrap up here, though, so. Thank you
for being here, and thank you for watching and listening, we will see very soon with another brilliant interview like this one oral shop, all of them go out and sell
and you came on and for those of you who, like trigonometry on the dog, is also available. Podcast, tighter and see you soon guys
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