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what you have just said is it someone's got to say it now and welcome to trigonometry on France's foster, I'm constantine kissing- and this is a show for you, if you want only, conversations with fascinating people a berlin guest today, is the author of among the most professor hussain, welcome to trigonometry. Thank you for having me it's a great pleasure to have you. We've had a bit of a chat before the interview started, and I can already feel this is going to be a really interesting and important conversation before we get into the Oh tell everybody a little about who you are, how I e? How are you where you I've, missed them? That question twice now. and what has been your journey through life? The lead you to be sitting here talking to us My journey started here in london was born here, two pair

sue came from two different countries, one from a rabies and other that was then british, india. They came here to night and fifty's, so families been here for decades, but I am my great it to the united states of america, where I teach it george tunnel. diversity, but I'm british and proud of my country? I love my country and therefore I come back often, and I keep a close eye on when all things here I went to school in east london. I then went to study in history in the middle east and studies. The schoolroom If the alaskan studies during my early years I got caught up in, what's today describes as extremism, I think an older generation came to political maturity through communism. My generation of young muslims growing up in this country came to political maturity through what we call Islam. The politicized nation, I think the the dilation of her face in others, making it all politicized and making.

it all confrontational. So I was involved with a range of organizations and the Hamas, which is a ban which was then allow those involved with those guys as well as his but the head of the muslim brotherhood. and others. I saw the light very quickly. I saw how shallow they were left them and I then went and studied the arabic and show I in the Middle east, in Syria, saudi arabia, seventh of July, two thousand and five bombings happened. My sister missed one of the bombs by about four minutes and was too close to home. I came back to britain and I wrote a book called islamist that did very well and then I helped set up his think tank and then I moved to america at the council on foreign relations at the height of the arabs, bring got involved in some of the governments there and advising on how best to govern. But also what some the mistake that the islamist organisations up when making particular the muslim brotherhood. And then I came to britain, because tony blair

and I had a certain reporting approaching counter terrorism and approaching the way in which the Middle east ought to be governed. and then I, I started reading more roger scrutiny works and I did a phd under sorrow, roger god, rest his soul, benefited immensely from his knowledge and the way in which he saw the world and then I returned to america and I'm there now, but I come here too. So that's the long and short of it. I would delighted to have you what more in each thing, intellectual journey that that that is, the dinner being radical some war and then not? And then too me: blair register its very different people and to be influenced by both, I suppose, before we get into the book. Let's just we ve talked by this before and I think must have always understand the difference between muslims and islamist and all of that. But since we have, this conversation with you fresh. Can you just explain

two people, because I think, a lot of ordinary people who don't have the time or the inclination frankly to get into all of this deeply sometimes they can be conflation or misunderstandings that can you just separate this out for us so that we start from a good place and I think the best, analogy constantine is didn't look at china. The average time these person is not evil. They there, the culturally chinese. They have no cultural trade. and they're good human beings, as most human beings are. But then you have the chinese communist party that is evil that has a worldview, that's confrontational that wants to dominate the rest, the world. Similarly, with most muslims there, like every other human being, it's it's, their faith is cultural. They turned to god. They they, they have a certain well, you, but among the ordinary muslims. You have this politicized beast called islamism that is set up to do, Rail, the west that believes and destroy the state of Israel that

undermines women's equality that hates gay people and wants to destroy every nation state in order to create a great supra islamist cattle and that's islamism, distinct from Islam. The faith and Islam The faith has many manifestations of in the way I see it is a continuation of the us of the old testament in the new testament most muslims believe in fact all muslims believe in the jewish profits. The hebrew profits. and they believe in Jesus the messiah which distinguishes us from our jewish friends. But they also don't think that Jesus was crucified and they think the prophet my and that we believe the prophet Mohammed was also divinely. Inspired and the koran is a is a poetic testament to the so that's the ordinary muslim I think anyone's met most muslim I've been to muslim country will know that muslims are like anyone else in hospital and kind and all those traits

islamism. Much like chinese communism is the threat that produces terrorism, and that, I think, is the simple, distinct at the ones in the leaves me baffled, is key I understand why you grew up in certain countries in the middle east, dogma followers emerging from lebanon. Why you? be radicalized right. It particularly You know when you see the history of the of the area why dont understand a young lives growing up in london or mention stir growing up in the west, and then buying into this philosophy. Yeah great question: Frances. Blame the young lad. I blame them some of us for not having the confidence to say to the young lad come on board. This is britain. This is how we live here. These are rules you sign up to them a new and our roman citizen. That's how it used. Before the ancient romans you signed up to roman values, espy cure the senate in the people a room and he became a room,

citizen in the whole world was your oyster and you had the protection of rome and we don't That confidence were busy selfless, deleting ourselves for selves, full historical mistakes or otherwise robin saying Britain's or the great countries in the world that I could go, live in china by the way for fifty years, I've never become chinese but You can come here and sign up for british and brought away and values of reason, individualism, gender equality and open society, and this issue care on its racial equality, and your british welcome on board If you then want to support terrorism or organizations that want to undo the thousand years settlement. We have here from nope ten sixty sixty magna carta to where we are today. Then you don't belong here. Belong somewhere else, and we don't have the confidence to say that so we ve left people alone and I think focus on just oh. If it should you speak english, your fine, we'll know, that's not good enough. let's just, as did, the bar is too low. So the

the battle of ideas is what's got to be one? In other words, if you come here, these are, ideas you sign up for you, then yet citizenship in exchange for that and you love and your patriotic person belonging to this country. This part of the world, the americans do generally better than we do better for as long as we don't do that. It's easy, I think for, teenagers and others to get sucked in by the communists, islamists or others. So if it has to be Rethinking and under or not blame shifting, but recalibration the rest of us who don't share that extreme ideology to be proud of who we are as people and as a nation and as an island and what we ve done for the rest of the world, which brings us neatly onto your book among the mosques in which you went out and you went into mosques around the country, and you spoke to people and you you ask questions. What did you find? I found lots of good things that surprised me.

those those things ought to be mentioned and in a mosque in edinburgh to see a gay couples sat in a most kitchen now that that really shocked me to go into birmingham and see a lady working in a cynical gay people. Tat surprised me. I said to me young kids in the madras in dewsbury who are playing with jewish kids. I mention that because we judge a society in its strength by how it treats its minorities, and I think the ultimate test is how we treat our jewish cousin and forbears and how we treat people who have a different lifestyle to us in the private sphere. I am sexuality by those two tests. You know I was surprised and I was really it was generally heartwarming. I didn't expect that. Why not because I thought it was a perception of people who are religiously pine was conservative right. Then they would not be open to the other, but they were

that's positive and that's cause for hope that we can continue to maintain a pure list: free, open britain and open society. by open society, I don't mean George soros yeah, I'm in called papa, hardly a jewish shill yeah I mean called papa who went to new zealand who loved england for his openness for standing up against the nazis. Yeah, I don't mean to encourage her to the language, has become very difficult whenever you say something people that you mean something else, so you will pleasantly surprised by some of the yanks. Are we going to talk about the great reset or not yeah so to to constantine? question, but what surprised it was the following things that I often have synagogues also go see churches in the in the spirit of the you know, the abrahamic faiths that we have all inherited that have produced these great civilizations, and I hear prayers for her majesty

queen or in the? U s for the country for the president, but I don't hear those present mosques in britain and that worries me there's a disconnect. No, the monarchy and everything else is somewhere out there. We are an ensued, a different setting, so that the lack of patriotism public, patriotism worries me. The second thing that worries me with a focus on a different legal system. So in some mosques there's an attempt to impose sharia law in personal elements of people's lives. My fear is, it always starts like that. You know you. You have a different legal system for divorce for inheritance and and form do not matter. how you raise children, I'm going to stop me there. How does our work so if these somebody's get divorce story of if there's there's some kind of altercation or a pc injustice has taken place. How does that work with this sharia? Willed

I was if I was a woman, a muslim woman that say in love, borough, Keith, Lee deuce, bree bradford, I wouldn't be able to just readily get a divorce. I would need my husband to issue a divorce for me and, in the absence of doing that, I would need to go to and emma in court Who would then arbitrate on the behalf on behalf of both couples, and then the mom would issue a divorce on behalf of the man or satan me that I'm not devote deserving of a divorce, for example, my grounds were that I've been beaten up and I didn't want to sustain a relationship in which this physical violence that the mom would rule that it's it's prescribed in scripture, that the man has the right to beat a muslim woman and therefore the divorce won't be granted. Point is why should british women be subject to any mom, foreign or otherwise telling them that legal rights that are theirs by birth, in other words its their decision when they get divorced. It's a british court that decides whether they get divorced and not an

those decisions are not made in a mosque or any other place. So there, the power of the legal system in operation here and ask growth and it's a real threat because it plays on the identity of a muslim woman issue muslim or should british she's british, the having muslim is, is have faith in our relationship. Is god If we break that contract of having one law for one nation, we are opening up conflicts for the future. in which this is how it started in india and pakistan. This is It started in parts of lebanon. This is how it's not in parts of bosnia that He caught maintain one rule for one nation, so the nation status to start to break away saying that happens today or tomorrow. When we vote, a long range view on these things and not make the mistake of so. This city on law was one

It was gender segregation. You know we talk about apartheid, but the gender apartheid is a real factor in many of the mosques. Women were not allowed to enter in many of the mosques. The the these are mosques, you know in dewsbury, bradford and many of them in which women were put in this title cupboards at the top to pray, said the djinn, the segregation factories real. I had a full fighting Perhaps the most worrying factor is many of the moms, with all respect to them are not trained to understand a post enlightenment pose. Industrial Morton, britain, now they're still room rehashing scripture from the eighteen, forty in india, the deal bundy movement. move and spend the taliban on one side, but to be fair, they will suffer secular movement in india, so we ve got the more extreme version so those three indicators are real problems for right. So right now have two thousand mosques. We have about four million muslims amplify them.

in the coming years. Let's assume the number of muslims increase in another in and of itself is not a problem, but if we have this kind of politicized separatist form of religion. identity. Then Think is a real problem. because you will see the political map chain. Jane, you will see, constituencies and and politicians, and trying to gonna votes with a certain type of messaging that leads to a more separatist, more islamist, Worrying Britain now that that people say I'm being alarm is what I say to you. Just two weeks ago you had a guy blackburn getting replaying going all the way down to texas, holding a synagogue hostage, that's from blackburn I say to you: when the israelis responded to the terrorism out of Gaza, we had men from Branford come down into. the finchley road and other parts on Saturday morning, when that, when there are fellow jewish friends of thousands, and our citizens going to synagogue addressing them within a where were we

expletive against them and their mothers, and I could go on and on and on so all ready, seeing separatism door driving through north london with convoys saying rape, jewish women s rights Yes, now you put it politely. They used other words yeah, so I You you've worked out by now that I'm not scholar the koran. of the faith in general, but the question I would ask is it: it has been said by some people that, the political. The merger of politics with religion is inseparable within Islam, that it is a political and theological ideology and absent reformation, like the christian faith, had it, always be that way. What do you say to those people? That's an interesting argument and I say, that's a historic argument. It belongs in the history books. It belongs in our past because you can't live

Five, thirty million muslims who live in the west, the west is built on secularism is built on. secular laws and its built on nation states. You can't live. As a citizen in those countries and believe that your now to undo secular laws, undo nation states and bring in some kind of shitty arrangement. If that's what you want, then no, please live in Afghanistan, because that's what they're trying to do over there, because they want to go back to the different world. The world has moved on now Islam modernize can muslims modernized absolutely they can and the best evidence for that is what we are now seeing in several of the arab gulf countries and the best of it is for that is that we now have fifty to muslim nation states, then they're not forming caliphate. They want to be secular nation states. The best evidence for that is those countries want secular laws on the afghan is done now and not a single fifty one

of the other muslim countries, want to lash women or want to stone adulterers or want to bring any of those homicide arabia. I think women are still more all stoned, just ahead evaluated appointed even they saudi arabia. They find a reform in my eyes, now lies in exactly wasting the only question. I'll put you. I have a friend who actually train does anymore before moving with his life and one of the things she always said to me. Is people like you who are saying we need to move on your blaspheming according to the scripture You are trying to reform a religion that has very precise definitions of how you ought to behave an ideal. reforming is blasphemous. I don't agree I don't think the the the the muslim record over the last fourteen one hundred years agrees, I'm eighteen, fifty seven, the ottoman empire, the caliphate decriminalized homosexuality. This is before oscar wilde by one hundred and forty years. You know so

it is just worth bearing in mind that there is a long tradition of reform and change and modernization within Islam and the pro Mohammed was supposed to be reformed and that's the whole point. He had a problem with the doctrine of the trinity and he was trying to reform Some began as a reformation it began is change. It began as renaissance we caught now become. The people is suddenly are becoming frozen in time. That's not who we are ass, not blasphemous to seek for change across the muslim, while this choice, My fear is that muslims in this country are stuck in the nineties kind of seventeen imagination of what it means to be muslim? The middle east is changing, for example, the abrahamic holds, who would have thought that you would have peace in the open, a warm lively peace with israel between multiple arab nations. My point is this: that risk, Woman change is normal. You know you can either change Edmund burke, famously.

famously said that, in order to conserve you ve got to change, a cancer conservation depends on changing change you die, so muslims have got to change No doubt we saw in the life of the prophet mohammed change from being meca medina, no. We saw his companions changing when they went from place to place. Now we saw Islam in indonesia is different from in Islam in bosnia is different from Islam in nigeria is different from Islam in saudi arabia. We, now say that in the twenty twenty two here in england we are not going to church. engine adapt? Well, then, dont come to him. because there's a certain way of doing things here when you hear you do them as the supposed to be done rather than trying to recreate afghanistan here. What am I is is a muslim out, and I was talking to him about this and he said to me Paul the issue with what wishing in his country, Francis, is a lot of poor people came from india and pakistan and bangladesh to

country and they have a far more conservative version of Islam. Then the the middle classes in places like india, That's true. Would you agree with that? That's partly true but it's not the whole story, because some we have people who came from india, who seeks and hindus from similar parts of the sub continent now seeks came from the punjab, muslims also came from the punjab a hindu. Similarly came from parts of india from which muslims also came then begs the question: why is it that we have the hindus and seeks a very patriotic and generally much more integrated and parts of bradford and costly in london, and so There's something else going on is the question that we discussed at the outset constantine islamism, the desire to have political ideology, make Islam your personal faith and love god as much as you want, but when you may

that your political ideology which she must impose on others, you must hate Israel. You must dislike. And see women as second class citizens that non muslims are somehow filthy and that that that public pop Politicization is the problem if I did for one thing, it would be that and then I would also ask the question: why is that muslims in america so generally much more integrated. I I I don't an name names, but that he is someone who I know from here went to live in america, prominent british journalist, eyes of british Muslim journalist went to Washington DC, went into a mosque. pray and he was shocked to see that many of the members of that congregation muslim. To work for the cia, the state department, the pentagon, the? U S, army, any just good until his whole thing was. I thought we were. against all those institutions, burma muslims are american and they, oddly serve in the: u s, armed forces. when we see more and more and more british muslims serving in the british armed forces, there are good six hundred

so the moment? But we need to see that reflected as per you know, four million muslims. Then you know that you were making real progress when muslim start to pray for her majesty the queen, the royal family. You know we're making real. Protest when muslims in britain start to be but the united arab emirates and other countries and make peace with Israel love their fellow jewish forebears. You we have made progress until those things happen. We have a genuine concern for water awaits, country. Do you have a website or do you plan to have a website? Well, if you do easy dns other company, for you easy dns is the perfect domain name, registrar provider and web host for you, but I have a track record of standing up for their coins, whether it be cancelled, the platform attacks or overzealous government agencies. He a bit about that. So will you in a second easy dns rock solid network infrastructure and incredible customs

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it really really was it was. It was lovely you mentioned. There was a lot of discipline there. Yeah, that's all great, but yeah. Bad thing is that I think he always complains about the lack of better behaved. I actually bought those were only one incident caused me- will cause for alarm in that three o clock, we'll have to day they had any mom come in to give islamic studies and these, these kids down- and I was teaching again to- or at the time of covering maternity, to hold it So you see, this is about six or seven years old money, any sat them down in these little kids. We locate and he was telling a story from the koran or good, and then he went and he told the story about Jesus and why Jesus and the story of jesus- and he said to them- Jesus was killed because the Jews were jealous of it. And then he, and then he repeated it said times more than was necessary and mobile.

watching it and going what's going on is it. Is this the indoctrination, what Second, you see what I mean, I'm so really uncomfortable and I didn't know what I was saying and then, when you see about these other rogaine mom. She think is this what's happening up and down the country I'm sorry, I encounter that yeah most muslims don't believe. Jesus was killed, much less killed by jewish people it strange that this amount would be putting out basically nazi propaganda in no way know that Jesus was jewish. We all know that the new testament was a hit most of his followers, but jewish says wrong to just blame jewish people, because his ms movement was jewish and so certain that that aside, rogue imams, yes but I dont see, I've got to be honest. France is that I think the problem is with him. Yes, we have imams that could be better trained the end.

who could have imagined that are much more patriotic, but the moms are responding to the congregation. Because you know their salaries are raised among the congregants. If identify one source where things need to be addressed in your knee there, which is education. Space on our university campuses were afraid to assert what would be right, values, verses, wrong values were afraid to say that Certain values are yes superior to other values. If you believe in female, little mutilation. I'm sorry that belief is not just inferior, but is in lead in the eyes of someone who believes in gender equality as a superior, an umbrella value and is an inferior incorrect value if were not prepared to make that argument. Then on university campuses, rather more relativism, everything right all value, the same than ought and what then then produces a media class and the political class that won't charlie

the imams. when the moms are saying that a woman who is beaten up in her marriage seeking a divorce can't get divorced because somehow scripturally valid. It's all connected, but that is at the root of it. Even for the rogue amount is to do with what we're teaching our elites. If you like those who are going to reforming the new code, of political and media leaders. I think so much obliged to do with, with with the with the university space that needs to Stu again. Rina remembered that the university is is an outcome of the dead the academy that Plato started that's than this. Socrates is student that it was about seeking the truth. It was about philosophy reflecting on the world and not indoctrination. So once that I think is addressed in then we will see the wide education system and and Our demands and others are minimize because all connected, it's all interconnected,

and for as long as we, the rest of us don't have confidence in who we are in asserting that I don't think we can hold migrant communities hostage and say: oh, how dare you? How dare you believe explains that no one told them to think otherwise and no one explained in britain Women are equal in the eyes of the law. If legal status that equal to that of a man, they think they are second class citizens because no one sat down and said to them. No, it's different here, so I I blame ourselves for not getting all this right before Cuba, how we try to remedy some of this, which I think is very important. Obviously the one thing that strikes me as I watch I used to know anymore, but I used to watch a lot or tv news nigh question time all of that stuff, and I fear that I, like many people listening to this,

I'm watching. This have never heard a muslim on television or on the radio or on youtube. Frankly talk the way you're talking, so when we think about muslim. We think of someone who newsnight would have on as a sort of let's trigger everyone and Jim chantrey or some rogue preacher, whatever right many people have heard someone who is muslim come in and about gender equality come in and talk about. Well, if you don't like it in this country, and you want to live in a caliphate. Well, some people trying to make one over there. You go back land undue did that right we're not having that conversation honestly. So I'm really grateful that you here and what we have in this discussion genuinely

it does seem to me like way of describing is a very serious problem, very serious problem and when you look at you talked in wanting a previous into, is about the population dimension of this that the native population ought not the native put whatever you want to call it that the white british population or the non muslim population let's say, is declining bears the percentage would not having enough kids the muslim elation is doing great big families, and if you expand that over time, she isn't a problem in of itself agreed in of itself find a great, but what kind of islam is emerging as well right? If, let's I dont want, the percentages are but let's say no point, one percent of all british muslims islamists, let's say for this, it might be more, might be less I'd dump you know the you have announced without a percentage, but what I can tell you kind of forty. Three thousand people are being monitored by the intelligence agencies. That's a problem enough right, some! So, let's say the muslim population grows to what I think it's like fifteen million by twenty fifth,

something like that of some of the estimates from though, and s which versus for now so, then we might expect absent a significant political change in that era. In the era that it's not going to be forty three thousand is going to be one hundred and fifty to one hundred and fifty thousand right, So if this continues, the scale of the problem is going to get bigger. Yes and the political repercussions of that you have alluded, Jes are going to get bigger s and the violence will get worse yet right so what the hell do we do about it, but that's the way you know you ve made my case perfectly. I think This is this is the real issue, but thank you for your kind words. This is a real issue is not going away where way to talk about it, for fear of allegations of you know, quote islamophobia and the Chinese.

users of sign a phobia. When we talk about communism, minos the same thing. The russians now got on John the racket, as well as for ratifying the made that up it shuts down conversation. Yes, this jenny the fear and just as you know, attacks on muslims and they should be condemned and they shouldn't happen and ever individually sacred, there's no doubt about that, but it goes back to us having in the council, to be able to say what you just said if Britain is despised by you, please leave. You are forced to stay here. We go to afghanistan. I can go to the remnants of isis wherever there still operating in parts of seriously, and I could go if you want, but may I interrupt you very briefly- I'd love to expand on this, but you must know as someone who used to work in politics. What how toxic? What you have just said is someone's got to say it. Someone

got to say it in order to give our politicians- and I mean to class confidence over time- I'm not seeking votes, I'm not seeking popularity. I seek the truth. I love this country. I have two daughters and I want them to grow up in a country which are not discriminated against. I want them to grow up proud muslim women who have the rights as any other woman as british citizens. What a married man who say to them that I can beat you, because it saves them instead Nor do I want them not be able to get a divorce because their dependent on some emma Nor do I want them to inherit inheritance in less than a than a sunward so familiar to very personal, and I want my children and I want the generation and others to grow up as proud westerners, and there must be no conflict between being slim and being western, and if there is a conflict and being westerner comes first, because the west is equally islamic in my eyes, and I can make that argument based in history in scripture. There is no contradiction. There is no clash of civilizations. We ve got to have the confidence to say that that this this part of the world media,

the ST thomas Aquinas, without ever rubbish or may monarchies, and without that you don't have reformation and where we ended up now within within lightened meant so with to stop saying that were somehow at clash somewhat once that's done, and we agree that Muslims belong here as westerners with equal rights, but sign to the western values in his doctrine? Subvert them, then? What we in a position to do is to tell give out politician that call dance and which is what they dont have. We haven't won the argument, yet nothing, once, we have won the this argument that we're having now, because, ultimately, we will- and we must, for the four- does- the safety security prosperity of this country. In this part of the world, we, Asked every other option is a non option for us. You know that their there isn't going to be harmonious coexistence in parts of blackburn, the just isn't it when this argument and people who want to live a separate life, I've got to decide whether they want to be in this country or somewhere else. Otherwise, it causes genuine long term clashes.

in conflicts that are not in the interests of any quoting quote community. You know, I hate that time by way, because wherein in individuals with citizens and where in this country and subjects in the another country's citizens, so that stuff, spoiling. The second point is the education issue. You know whether it at the school level or whether it's at university level, this has got to be addressed that what britain is as a as it's own history. What are they in terms of I mean rigour, a reason, individualism, gender equality, the open openness of this country for free speech and free press is uniqueness and unreal. equality every one of those facets are opposed by islamists and communists. By the way and that's, why those six letters or ideas that form the acronym rigour inform us and and and come hell or high water. We mustn't compromise on a single one of those

hungarian dialectic wages, compromise and find a third way? We ve come to this point through a lot of blood and thrill of treasure being sacrificed into was yet now. I am. I agree with you. I agree with you completely and by the way, your point about the fact that there is no clash of civilizations. It's been echoed by many of our previous guess. You will to a mundane for my Al Qaeda inform. I turned started, work and firm. I fought and and many others, to explain to us what you said, which is the conflict isn't between Islam and the west. The conflict is between islamists, who hate the nation state and want to caliphate and everybody out, yes, which is why they are not only blowing on people in this country the blow and people all of us all of them at least have died in the sea. That's because they want those nation states, not exactly the right. So I get all that my question to you, and I I trust me, I fear, what you fear as much as you fair it an ice.

the coming as much as you see it coming because it's obvious once you start playing identity politics in this way, the andes, obvious intertribal conflict its inevitable, but you can say this because you are a muslim speaker and because you're brown I can say, because I'm an immigrant and because I have dark skin and I can go well as an immigrant. I actually you know if russians in this country said we need to make this the greater russia and live by russian standards and adopt the orthodox christian religion what are you fuck off back to russia? That's what I would say and I'd be ok to say that, but francis wooden, right and on those same people show what why my france's sublime exaggerates under the boy was me because they wish be able to as individuals as patriots as citizens take a position, that's of relevant, try. Individuality of citizenship in our country, regardless model, is the kings. The content of your character

the giant that was his dream not to be judged by the color of your skin. So we are what we can't, because we had to black froman emperors, in the romans had other that there were a hotchpotch of, as who we are that's. What makes us unique and different and open and special? So how do we get that? This is what I must continue to defend the enlightenment heritage that we have now those those who want to conserve liberalism or the enlightenment, traditional, that's what it is. We we caught with adequate with doing it now that we would defending our inheritance and we refuse to give up refused to be seen just as someone who is it skin tone or just as my gender judge me by my content, what I'm saying my character, maybe if you don't judge me by because otherwise we are doing martin luther king, you know what I'm doing all these people who died got to be dumbass. Doing what we're doing, but defending it by not kowtowing but not doing the tribal We know and ultimately in the long term, has got to be winning the political argument. The reform,

our university campuses and by bye the battle of ideas among muslim communities in others- and I think forgive me for the optimist. I think we are, as it were: I think we're losing this. What you have- and I think we were when it well the the evidence for us winning. Well, I think you know you're, seeing even from David cameron to Angela Merkel, to boris Johnson, to macro these rule, centrist political figures who have thrown out the baby of multiculturalism you know they they they. They realise that you can't just say we were all the same, so so that that's now that's a positive sign. The second positive sign is that there are many more muslims were making the kind of arguments that I am and people from other faced backgrounds and the third argument. As I say, I always judged something historically and

by the way in which we treat in jewish people, because then the relation of people who have been with us for six thousand years it everyone has mistreated them, has got it wrong over the years so how muslims interact with the jewish state is absent, vital Israel was so isolated just five years ago, and now we're seeing a greater acceptance of Israel, which bodes well for the future of the middle EAST. But we haven't seen that here yet and I think that's another pull to sign a full fine. If I have to the defeat of Jeremy Corbyn that's got to be a good sign that we were on the cusp of an anti semite taking power, and labour party was one of our great political parties taken hostage by these. You know the the ugly alignment of the far left and and islamists the mists defeated roundly and as I think, those are those a signs that we must and my teacher roger scrutiny to say that we must always be optimistic. Otherwise we run the risk of them. Talking us heads down and embracing embracing a negative

can we mustn't and we can't it's. It's such a body conversation really enjoy it. We had at west on the journey and he made. The point in its summit has struck me and always think about it. Actually, that, if you don't talk about taboo subjects honestly, Then what happens is you're never going to find a solution to the problem because you're not discussing the problem in an honest and frank fashion, and you not dealing with all the facets of the problem My worry is is that we continue along this route where we have to booze and what always happens in this situation? Is you get nefarious figures from the far right? It will come along and gallop they're not talking about it, but I'm going to, and that can start movement and what happens That point is that in a really dangerous situation. Yes, because what you are doing is collecting tinder by not to

talking about it and eventually something's going to happen, there's going to be a spot, whether it be a terrorist incident or something else, and we're going to we're going to be in a very dangerous place, absolutely right and that's not to exaggerate it whatsoever. You know it it it. It takes just one or two incidents to create. I mean I could in my mind those serbia comes to mind. No one thought serbian nationalism which triggered the first world war, but it did in france. Now you ve got someone from the far right is a serious political contender. Again this is the fourth french general election in which there is someone from the far right. That's it Will it contained in Britain's been very blast of the last millennium that we don't have extremist political forces now, but we should take. For granted. The english speaking world is genuinely at risk with this issue, so we should speak about taboo subject since when did we stop pursuing truth?

since when did we stop having a battle of ideas, I we got to where we got two by discussing taboo subjects parliament was exactly that. No having a reason, conversation with religious, where and others in order to get beyond dogma. Now we can't haven't got here after five hundred years people dying and which is being burnt and heretics being killed civil wars and world wars. We can now we caught now say: we've a new set of dogmas and please we're not going there we always going everywhere. There's going to be free competition based on respect, but pursuit of who is by the use of free reason without which were lost. We're going back in time regression, and our forefathers, many muslims and others died in both world wars in her didn't fire two world wars for free world in order for their grandchildren us now to be captured then, for a new set of dogmas where, as you say, to boost If the off the table, they must be, but you

can a university at you must have seen with your own eyes how freedom of speech has been degraded vinos students complaining that they need to feel safe. It set for cetera people being de platforms I work at georgetown, universal emotions, decent I've got say in all honesty haven't faced any of those difficulties. I honestly haven't. I teach a course in western civilization and islam and judaism and how the three forces over time, gave us the modern wild and defend, Whilst I explained the west, my students, or that is part of the security studies programme, then go out many of them up. Active duty in afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. So I mean it's: it's the real world stuff and I've got to say I have I haven't we are dealing with pink had eighteen year old, though I postgraduate. I heard you talking about the transit issue, whether all welcome the welcome, because they too

to be in these classes. In order I have this anastasia certain. I also I also cut some slack to the younger generation. I think you're allowed to be a blue. Had it open and whatever is for a period of time, and then you grow bright, you drove out, be realised the real world and then start to appreciate the in house since that we have missed a steven pinker complete, right on by every measure where we were just hundred years to where we are now. You know I can only give gratitude to the past to a we arrived and how much europe and you think, is the narrative? I look. Narrative got a certain merit to let you know that america are the presses what they have done in places like iraq. Syria, has caused untold suffering they had. Business being that how much of a pot has applied in russia Economizing young men, its hats, late that those grievances that I used right, but nine eleven happened

for syria, iraq, in ninety ninety three o mobbed or among the blind shag from Egypt, involved in the world trade center. These ninety. Ninety three after the west, had gotten involved in bosnia, against the serbs and other christian, emissions you, these are all I'd logical kind of issues that they use to mobilise the real issue at the crux of it is that there is a movement out there just like the chinese communist people hide among ordinary chinese people, islamists hide among ordinary muslims, and it is that force that's active in fifty two. In countries that seeks to destabilize, as you rightly said, constantine those countries, first and foremost over forty five and pakistanis had been killed by the that the pakistani taliban and to do away with those nation states in that and that secular settlement and before it comes here is that ideology which we ve got to defeat and and the good news is this: we have to feast other ideas,

geez and we have one, but the way we've done that. Yes, you know the the the radio free europe and so on. These are old tactics, but we have got to assert and retain and defend and be proud of who we are. If we were not there, defend, who we are Hillel. The elder used to say this to the great jewish rabbi that, if a finance he doesn't know who it is independent self it doesn't. It doesn't deserve survival. Bats, strong warning to who we are. If we want to continue to be the world's top dog, we've got to know and defend and pass on this heritage to our children. Edmund burke was brilliant at this. You know that Society is as a contract between the past the present and the yet unborn. this this is this is our heritage. We have got to defend it. For if we don't, nobody else will and The problem is so you you ve, got this very small sliver of society. Now you can see to them. Look if you're not happy here go but put you do with them

really- because if you put them into present, they not only they not only become even more right a clause. I write a clause other paper, I what was interesting francis, the strongest reaction that we ve seen from that camp, that's more camp! You I did to fight lisbon, pretty patel threaten to remove their citizenship. That's the thing that gets to them. Is because they realize their operating under the banner of of a british per day in the moment you remove that protection. You start seeing them getting edgy. It's the only time. I've seen them in the last fifteen years mounted a serious challenge to that way of thinking which tells us it hurts them which, tells us that war is them. So in the meantime, I think that's exactly the way to go, but if you That is why we have a word for school treason, network on the on the books for more than six hundred years. if you commit acts of treason, there will be repercussions in a free and fair

psyche you'll meet you. Of course you can question in our direction of travel and, of course you can question. there is a certain social practices I were all but we're all aghast that we know we have a cultural people getting drunk and vomiting on the streets we want to. We all want to see a better country but less work. this together, robin saying then tat west is full. And therefore began to blow you up. If people are of that persuasion than we have here, we ve got to make being in britain for that type of person, unwell. and do you think you in favor shipping citizenship? So, for instance, in the case of shame, a beggar? Are you in favour of? Who is to mean the big I'm afraid I am because she made a conscious decision, she, even those you made it as somebody fifteen under age, on the legal age, etc. Well, I don't see, I don't think we ve seen genuine contrition from her. I still have a problem with the kind of people who are represented. I do want to sound libelous here but buttons,

There are genuine issues as to the kind of people that are representing, and the kind of arguments that they're making and and the lack of contrition in wearing western clothes isn't contrition. You know, there's That is an ongoing legal process and that net, let's not get into that, was but the point is Some. You made a reminder: two million muslims as to how great this country is that she wants to come back. You know she's she's, not saying that she wants to go to afghanistan, so but here the problem and you as an education. This I'm sure you ve grappled with this question. I doubt I'm the first person to ask you this. This is the problem of a tolerant society is, if you become too tolerant than the intolerant people within the society, will triumph but to a british, listener hearing the idea that we might take someone who's here in the third generation who's, never into any other country other than Britain who hates this country.

whose maybe committed violence. Here to strip them of their citizens, isn't that on british? No, it's very british versions, is that your your citizenship is something that is dependent on you having a contract with the society. We don't go around, killing them destroying them undermining what these countries all about when we that that's why we have something called the trees and loss of every year we celebrate guy forks night because he was a catholic terrorist trying to blow parliament, guy Fawkes, remembering that moment is among the most british things to think to do so. I dont think its british, to say: if you want to blow up parliament and we ve had for attacks and asked here in parliament from islamist extremists. If you want to remove the british, freedom of women to wear whatever they want whenever they want. However, they want wherever they want. If you want to kill jewish citizens who contributed to this country from ten seventy with william the conqueror

all the way to disraeli and onwards. You're part of us and the way you them apart that is the you no longer enjoy the privileges of the british passport in british citizenship. Nice case obviously got to be violent and it's got to be active and someone who's questioning. All of that is that fully within, right, as was german carbon, to want to make friends with the and want to make friends with Hamas and hezbollah fully within your rights to be at the centre, but when you take up arms and when you undermine ass, our people, our institutions and then you join forces with our enemies to destroy our soldiers. British soldiers were putting them at risk, so that all of us can sleep at home peacefully at night. That's not british, Were you punish, that is by removing the very documents and the very privileges that allows you to commit treason against us

I am guy. Fawkes is the best example that comes to my mind, so I guess what you're saying we should deal with acts of political terrorism differently, as we would with common criminals. So if someone, you know If there's a stabbing incident on the street, we don't the poor people of engaging in that, but if you are engaging in that for political purposes as an act of india Inundation of terrorism etc you. You consider that a different issue, David that there have been several islamist terrorists plot against the monarchy against the prime minister against the foreign secretary against parliament. Three parliamentarians have been attacked this in the last fifteen years. What more do we need before we say when you act against the country, its institutions, its history, its symbols, and you our most treasured minority communities, I e jewish communities and

we've had suicide bombers from here going going and attack Israel. What at what point? Do we say enough- and I think that point is here that I think this point is now and I think priti patel is right to want to remove citizenship from people who don't want that citizenship who hate that citizenship who speak out against their citizenship and commit acts of violence against our greatest people. Our armed forces and we've got to be able to make that argument with complete confidence. You know a lot of mainstream people watch our show and I hope, they're listening, because I don't know I haven't thought as deeply as you have about this and instinctively. I am quite uncommon, the ball with idea of stripping people of national. Even from my perspective, you know I've made my home here my life here. I kind of like to think that, even if I make a mistake- and now this is more than making a mistake to be fair, I can I can stay here and serve my

What if you took up arms and decided to want to know why should fuck off back to russia? There's no question about that. So I I think most common sense oriented people would agree with this line of reasoning right so what I'm saying, otherwise we don't have a country left. Those numbers, agree and institutions are attacked. You know I agree, so I hope that the mainstream people who watch our show and politicians who watch our show, take note of what you're saying and give you a biggest form. I also think you're ahead of the curve as a year, in other words, ten fifteen years ahead. People will come to this argument in time because happening in france and belgium in holland across the continent, we ve always been outlined in the continent in more ways than one to win this issue on our terms rather than be. This is my it concern at just that. I hope that the people who hear this and listen to this and who come in the future to addressing this issue because it needs addressing there's no question about it, address it from your position.

Because for me, the fear of having these conversations always been the same, which is you are involved, people that you don't want embolden, sometimes you're, giving a voice to two people who who want conflict. This is the problem right there's a lot of people. You see it with covered now, and I know that you, you ve, tried to stay the hell away from it and actually you made the right decision, but there are people now who are pro restrict as an anti restrictions who really want covered to carry on because it gives the meaning it gives them purpose it gives them validity, gives them a platform. It gives them all of that and identity I definitely as well, and that's it fear and that's why again, I am so grateful that you here we're having this conversation, because this waste to have this conversation that are very destructive. I think I agree and its differ. compensation to have. It is about identity, heritage, faith, emotions and that's what we ve got to be reasonable about it, and I am

The thing I think most people won't understand is the people who stand to gain most of us. Getting this right is muslims anymore. should he muslim women in a who are currently no who get married at a mosque want to go for divorce and suddenly realized didn't have any rights because they didn't register their marriage over a hundred times? one of those marriages are going on now, sir, muslim. Woman coming in say from pakistan or any other country has rights because under because we recognize as marriages slim. Woman, born and raised in this country of british national gets married here most, she doesn't have any rights as as a married woman, because the lord Aren't you recognize sham marriages with regular sharia law, so If we get this right is muslims who win its the very country that our forefathers came to his protected is a win win situation? We get this wrong. It's muslims who suffer. the so called islamophobia is harmful, most muslims.

But overall we will benefit because, as we all love this country and we we we reached, cherish the air. The soil in which we work in the countryside and its beauty want to maintain that. So do not worry that with this stripping of citizenship and the british possible that it potentially grace a two tier society cause there's something people who will be engaged in acts of terrorism, etc, etc, but because the british their english five generations or whatever it may be, they once isis same punishment. I dont think only becomes a two tier society when it's a widespread problem when you got tens of thousands of people- I don't think so, looking out if we get this right. If we get it now,

Worst case scenario. I think we're looking at a couple of hundred three hundred people in a way. If we let this faster, that's won't. We end up in a two tier society and that's why we shouldn't get there. We should address this now before it gets out of out of out of control. I think its image the doable? Now we may feel screaming about this, but I put it to the every other. Alternative is far worse, a grid The only problem is the way our politics works. Is people don't deal with problems until they become far worse? In which case Far worse looks ugly in about it looks bad. As it looks I mean it looks parts of the north in particular render swinging? Look. encourage people in south a goat go up to blackburn, go up to do spree and come and tell me that single end and what will they say, I think parts induce bri induce me not did speak as I got into trouble with the daily mail who has got duisburg did speak did

it's fine other than a mosque that produced the guys who know they're the guys who prayed there went and in one one guy in particular, who used to pray at didsbury mosque was involved with the Ariana Grande concert. Think about that an Ariana grande concert attacked by who played its particular moscow. Go to that most. Can I still see some of the extremists literature. You know that was used there. use now and It's a sharia court to you know so that that's what the future looks like if we don't get it right, but I think in parts of the these people, people will see. Is it oh areas that look more like afghanistan and they should be rightly worried about that. You know But why should I- and why, should I go to a mosque in black bernard easily and see the palestinian slogans and support for him ass. How does that work? You got Peter a nearby put much bigger issues. Y Y, you focused on conflict, about which you have your involvement. What why

should I go in to a bookshop in old soul and red lips, each other s being sold that denigrate gay people and women and jewish people I could go on and on? I encourage people to read the book haven't plug the book in a way that americans plug books all the time they read. My book read my but regret about. I have done but it all. And it's it's! It's in the book- and I think you know those who care about the future of sir about this country- should read it and defend it with every. fiber of there being muslims and others are welcome to this country, and it is not putting up the barriers and come on board, but the ancient romans did become roman I try and undermine and subvert a beautiful country and a civilization, that's welcoming you giving you shelter, comfort and and your children prosperity, careful note to finish on- and I really admire spur of optimism as well, and I agree

do they have promised to leave no intellectually anyway, I say optimism, but will see whether this is right and it's been a while. Is that the book is called among the moss than I do january, of course recommend that people get it and read it, because I think they'll get a deeper insight into many of the things you're talking about. But as ever, we've got one more what is the point, which is always wants a one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be christianity, christianity, its it's the heritage that has made part of the world different from other countries and other parts of the world, because it is with christianity. You get individualism because it breaks from an inherited religiosity and, as I mean one of the things that roger said when I last met him or description? I remember seeing is sitting beside him in his country farm and he said that the data king that Jesus gave in terms of render unto god what is garden, unto Caesar what it sees as made this part, the well different debate.

of secularism and love. Each other, as I've loved you know the bedrock of forgiveness and inclusive eighty and damn. Those two teachings particular, but I'm and I could go on. But I dont gun of upset people with is that the house can have crucifixion We will get upset because the trinity button, but the point is we know, Talk about Jesus constantly in those terms, he was and remains, probably the greatest sure that humanity has ever had, and I think it here in the west. A distance from christianity is creating some of the dust. since that was seeing now, because we ve forgotten notions of forgiveness, supported identity, politics in council culture is that we know

someone's committed a blunder. What's their way back, we don't have redemption left anymore. Hence I think that the talk and remembrance of the heritage that this country and other countries indeed have from christianity is important, because, without that spiritual energy giving force will continue to stray away from sir the great heritage that has been done, it's done to us by christians and others of the past, and thank you so much. If people want to find you online where's the best place to do twitter. I think it's probably most active from time to time. Okay, I too have had and at what was it and the school hussein with one s we will make sure to put that in the description and other linked to the book as well. Thank you both been fantastic by the way and keep up the excellent work that you do

really appreciate that we're can ask a couple of exclusive questions, far supporters only but for now. Thank you so much and thank you guys for watching and listening. We will be back, very soon, with another berlin episode like this one or or show all of them go out at seven p m. time and for those of you who lot you trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast take care, soon, guys how much the muslim community leaders in inverted commas, actually reflect the opinions and values of british muslims.

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