We'll shop. If says you can sell anywhere move it hold up just got a new sales chop off. I don't mind if you see level whether you're, selling kara, beaters or grabbed ops start selling the shop a fight to day and join the platform, simplifying commerce for millions of businesses worldwide. This is possibly powered by shop of I sign up for a free trial at shop. If I dont com, slash, offer twenty feel shop, a fight, our com, slash offer twenty two, my grandfather's. What one of the things I talk about in the book He criticised the soviet invasion of afghanistan, much like people are now in russia criticising the russian of invasion of ukraine. and he was immediately five from his job. His wife was fined from her job. Children, that's my father and my aunt. What kicked out of university one cow,

when that he made in private, I wrote the book before the invasion of ukraine, but people who read it now that the preface essentially predicts what has happened when the powerful forces to hold the current world order together, abdicate their responsibility or abstain from that responsibility than other people will attempt to fill that voice. I think to remind people Most of all that what we have in the west, the freedom to prosperity, these didn't in out of the sky, they random occurrences. The problem we ve got is If you change the language, you can change the laws without legislating, and that's really that big. Problem. If you, if you have laws that say, people must be safe right that law is there to prevent violence against people, but you changed, the meaning of the word safety now got a law that is Or against of people having the wrong opinions and public? The

here that you must force people to be equal is evil, whether you are looking at it through the lens of class or race or sex. And whatever the bullshit people have come up with and the real in its evil is not that it's not a good thing to redistribute wealth in income from one group of people to another is the amount of tyranny that it takes to achieve inevitably going to lead to millions of people being killed as it has done. Every time has been I had hello everyone. Thank you very much indeed, for coming to this. and bookshop bonnie money. Middleton is Austin Williams on the director. Future cities, projects and this this four bonnie in association with trigonometry and, of course the battle of ideas is a cure. Set up in the round. You have to excuse my back some members of the audience and vice versa? So this

bonnie jump into one before it's kind of like, hopefully in engaging conversation with an author about their books and to explain to you what they ve written, their written it on the ideas behind this one is looking at constant, kissing his book on immigrants, love letter to the west and with a touch of walking, genius. It came out just as the war started you look now in the news that russia says it's losing lotta conscripts back to the wall. Last week there was a general all egg Mackay S was killed, but this book will cost you an army and an alek it's only fourteen quid. There is another one coming. I saw it If did you know about russia? Actually there's a session tomorrow in russia constance already done on ukraine. This is about kind of the values. British values, which are under attack and in some ways need to be defended.

Need constantine says: freedom, human rights, tolerance, peace and prosperity must be gone. And never taken for granted and the times can go. Did you want to book, but then did Thank you for not defining what constitutes the west and I kind of thought it. The times doesn't realize what the west is. Then we've got a bigger problem than maybe than even we thought Kosovo is a pot castor together with france is foster. he was in the last session is a core created offer. Economic, can show which has half a million subscribers one man one vote is that that is the sort of reaction. I'm work ass, a kind of national payment. You can afford exactly any companies, a translator, writer, social commentator on is described as a jewish russian. this committee, which is a bit like when those kind of jokes. jus russian and a brisk walk into a bar. For this reason I am a bit says: I'm going

I'm tired and thirsty. Could I have been the russian side, tighten thirty could I have a vodka, the juices I'm tired and thirsty. Could I have diabetes anyway, It goes down here to be a right, so it's a really. The main thing is this: in berlin tribal book, if you have read it, is on the book stand, I thoroughly thirty, and it really really insightful book and very challenging as it happens, is available. bookstore ass people going to copy the way bonnie works, is simply that I allowed constantine to do maybe a five minute interaction or as new fibres we get Then I've got a whole series of questions which are derived from reading the book which, hopefully will allow companies to drive some of the more themes. If you hadn't ready, you understand it. Maybe a bit more and then we come out to use the audience for your questions and comments on what you've heard and what you've read yes and more broadly so with no further ado,

can we welcome place? Cosmic isn't he received ivy league have to turn around and say. Thank you over there are people gladly is well. Thank you for that. Production. I one thing I like disagree with people's all immediately disagree with you in the usa. The book is not about the and of course it is, but the main contention of the book is that what frank lady who I just did a session within ukraine talks about which is what he calls The west's moral disarmament- and that is the complete loss of belief in our values, in the fact that there are important frankly that they even exist. The idea that If such a thing is, british values of western values is now something that a lot of people question and

My contention is, and has been from day one and, of course I wrote the book before the invasion of ukraine, but people who write another. The preface essentially predicts what has happened. As it is, in my view, inevitable that if the west weakens itself morally economically militarily, then The the law of history is very clear when, when the powerful forces the whole the current world order together, abdicate their responsibility or abstain from that responsibility, then other people will attempt to fill I void, so he eats, unfortunately, because the situation in ukraine's obviously very tragic, but he is unfortunate, very timely booking, if I say so myself and the, but the the point of the book is, I think, to remind people most of all that what we have in the way the the freedom, the prosperity these didn't pull out of the sky they did

random occurrences there, the product of centuries of intellectual debate, of actual war of of endless battles in order to attempt to work out what is a better way of gum. meaning. Then the way of governing that exists in most of the rest of the world, including the country from which I come, which is a strong manly that comes in killed imprisons anyone. They don't agree with, and then they rule for as long as they can sustain life We ve gone beyond that in the west. That seems to me we have a better way of doing things, and I quite like people in the west to Remember that and to be willing to defend that. So I wanted to in immigrants level letter to the west to remind people that I particularly young people who maybe haven't traveled very much, haven't seen much of the rest of the world who have grown up in comfort and prosperity who who don't really appreciate what we have here? How rare it is, how unique it is and therefore how worthy of defending and protect

it is and, and that that's that's the crux of the book very good, very good. On that basis, I'm sure you do not want to buy it, but let me just ask a couple of questions: if you, if you will the gist of the book I'll, just take a couple of quotes and throw them back at you to see what you think or maybe just about the point. So you say I'm over the past few decades. Ever since postmodernism moral relativism. Multiculturalism became a thing, intellectuals and academics brackets. Many who buy into the soviet style theory have promoted destructive fashions. As a result, the west has lost all self. in his own values and so the undermining of cultural norms. Nothing, we probably all recognise I was just wondering whether you were positive, that this was a destabilization from without or whether it is actually happening from within. Argue yes, yes is both is both an and you cannot destabilized society from without unless that society wants to destabilize itself.

The external forces that would seek to capitalize on the discord and divisiveness that we have in the west, china said such or they ve been putting a lot of money into bought farms that amplify these supposed divisions and western society. But if those divisions one there did, did that those efforts will be completely futile, so we ve done this to ourselves, and then course our enemies will want to take advantage of that. that's where I think it's a combination of those two things as we make ourselves weaker, opportunistic adversaries we'll take it back. gonna give us but gives a illiberal background as to how you think that kind of got a necessary by into the many you by the soviets down theory, I dont leslie think that's a driver but How is this going to moral relativism? Big question, but how is it really occurred gives a snapshot

I don't know that I I know the answer to that question. I don't know how I think it's a very complicated thing. I mean one of the people we interviewed on trigonometry recently is a woman called Louise perry, who has a book called the case against the sexual revolution? I think her central argument is that the technological advances of the central l, the sexual revolution, altered the diner I make between men and women and therefore changed that does the status and role of family and and many other things, and I think a lot of this is technological and the the develop. And of social media has taken those ideas, particularly ideas of the sort of progressive left. They have an advantage on line because they sound good and they see good? They feel so good equality, diversity and all of this stuff. It sounds a lot better than I do not closed borders or you know meritocracy. These things have a different bring to them, and so

These technological changes that we ve seen they amplify some of the directions of travel that I think unhealthy for western society, because we no longer able to argue for the things actually represent. British rallies, Yeah, that's a fair point. So let the chapter on language in the undermining of this she's, a certain kind of words and meanings is really really interesting under no those diversity, the agenda. That is all I can to stop. We know about, even, as you say, progressive on even left wing rhyming. What do we mean by these things? So again, just read the question runners boys have as a linguist How do we deal with that? Do we try to reclaim some of these words right? You know, I think, I'm progressive right. I wrote a book on progress, yet if you say that today, that is meant to be something else. So do we reclaim these words or do we give them up, is lost and try to form a new ideas and new ways of addressing us off and yes, we have to reclaim- or

the word woke, I think, is a very interesting one because obviously will how it started out as a self descriptor of people who thought that they were on the right side of history and blah blah blah and then people like me started mocking it, and then it became a drug tourism. Now is gonna go to point. While I dont really used the woodwork- as I just think, it's tarnished by all sorts of things, so these these Twisted battles willows gone. My first invitation to people is, first of all, to recognise what is happening with language. So, for example, I always like use example inclusion. This is one or safety. These words that have meanings collusion means that people are included. Yet what will find it? Modern inclusive space is quite a lot of people like me and you would be excluded from them or if we too, about something like safety. Safety means the absence of physical violence. Yet Fifty now means that no one disagrees with your opinion so

to notice these things and then the problem we ve got is if you change the language you change the laws without legislating and an that's really the biggest problem, if you You have laws that say people must be safe, ripe, That law is there to prevent violence against people, but if you change them of the word. Safety now got a law that is. Or against the people having the wrong opinions in public. So the first thing I think is we ve got to be aware of, and then yes, culturally satirists, and you know podcast and whoever can play with these other terms and make them too. Of ridicule. So people can no longer have that shield, a virtue when they're talking about being woke while advances in very regressive ideas. We ve always done by the torrent, isn't it must hold me our intolerant Georgiana menu

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because we're just great guys are going gonna. Give you ten percent of and free world wide shipping and returns to take advantage of this incredible offer: go to rich dot com, its last rigour, that's rich dot, com forward rigour and use our special code to choose trigger. Let me move on on in terms of some does russia story, you say compared to russia. We have free and honest media law bar but an nightmare aside, there is a kind of a debate to be held as to whether we do have a free and honest media. Hope may not be done. Compared to russia. We do well compared to be no mere compared to russia. China looks good I mean that the point is that our? U letting the west off the hook by making those lobo compares what I think One who follows my work knows that I'm not exactly a big fan of the mainstream media, and I have been very critical about many of the things, in fact, as a whole,

turn the book, which is a sort of reproduction of a long twits, a thread that, when quite viral during the pandemic, in which I talk about how misrepresentation false message, on that issue and on many previous issues has destroyed our faith. In media, which now means the people. You know this that this, kind of online me off. I support the current thing, and now there is the I opposed the currency. People were blindly believe disbelieve things simply be as the mainstream is advancing them, but people also should not be confused. when we talk about societies like russia and china, there is a difference between a media landscape. Witches Increasing misrepresentative and not entirely accurate and people choosing in picking what they want to hear and the society like china, russia in russia, for example? There is no independent media animal everything estate controlled. Eighty percent of the russian public then use from

the vision- and that is entirely controlled by one man and his cronies, who are able to enforce a particular vision, a reality on the rest of society. So this is kind of the issue that I addressed with the whole book, which is yes, we have problems in the west. Yes, when all perfect yeah, some of the wasted, The tunisians have allowed themselves to be degraded over time, really really bad and dangerous, and I talk about it in a book but mustn't, throw away the baby with the bathwater. We do need a mainstream media for all. The excitement that people like me have about. new media and the destruction of the old way of doing things wherever that's great, We still do need mainstream publications that will spend a million pounds doing some kind of genuine investigative journalism. We don't do need mainstream institutions, I mean, I think, the BBC's beyond saving, but the idea of the b c is actually quite a good one, itself, also a yes

We don't have the perfect media landscape, but it's nothing like these authoritarian countries and again we shouldn't take that for granted yeah. But so how do you play that comparison line? Then wrote sluggish as a low bothers my cheap jan? your argument, but in terms of you saying you know, we have a free press notion for yeah exactly so by comparison I get it, but is there more worthwhile? How we would? How would you deal with people criticising the press in his country, regardless of how you do it, but you mean by then them saying actually we off then what's going on in russia. Therefore, we should have the ability to criticise the media in west. You know how I deal with them is usually column idiots on twitter, but but I I don't. No, how you deal with I'd, that's just a lack of understanding and lack of context.

you know we have a saying in russia. Everything is understood in comparison. You cannot understand the value of meaning of something. Unless you have something to compare it to do so, yes, the media in the west has many issues. Yes, These issues need to be resolved. Yes, papa The solution to those issues is new media attempting to highlight and expose the problems with the old media. But again we must not throw the baby out with both water. We are fortunate to have a society in which there is a debate happening most other societies in the world have no debate at all. It's it's a uniform view that imposed from above and so, we have to we have to remember the valley of those institutions, try to call a mile when they're gone wrong and and and hopefully that is the method by which they get better. Fine, ok, good again, and these questions in mind and other questions that you may have to develop. If you don't like the answer, if you don't want a question with a question, just move on if you like the answer by all means, come back to in the question and answer session in terms of

education's section, you criticise again, caught you and announced out of context out of context in some regard. For the sake of mainstream mainstreaming polemic, I gotcha is more just wanna work out what you told your getting at. You criticise you gotta case for not teaching about the ills of socialism. You say yes, it was a socialist. and you say that's a good that that's because course, today's teaches professors often think communism is a good idea. I'm really come across that myself any whereby get the gist but does that mean that you are kind of in favour by teaching the was the socialism. It means that in praise of something else by comparative and so? What do you want to have a politicized education system which now one objective one I'm quite problematic like that, just I'd, think that we need to teach people about history, in a broader context? So if we're talking, we spend

at a time teaching ourselves about the evils of nazis, and quite rightly of course, but if you'd compare on a roar numerical basis. Communism is far more dangerous than has taken formalised, and yet I fear and almost nobody in this country understands that now that to me seems like quite a big problem, and you say there you have it many people in academia who think communism is. It is a good idea. I've met quite few number one, but also have to consider. What we mean when we are talking about communism, marxism, I'm in many of the racial conversations we are now. Having I mean, look at be alarmed, for example, right that is an organization run by people who are openly marxist Many universities have professors who are openly marxist and many of the identity, politics conversation we have in this country. They just a new form of marks, has made its array space marxism instead of a class instead of a class based marxist right. So except that undermines the very notion of walking

If I may, I would say I'm openly marxist year by dont, support black lives matter So no me, I I just dont necessary, recognise that characterisation of this being a left wing. I'm socialism and communism, indifferent, marxism and communism. In some respects it is slightly different. So he s got real rocks is was now have been tried that regional because you're right, I'm going for the record. I didn't say that knows: I'm poverty people were to my mouth, but but he's not. Dear about you, know, teaching the ills sources was kind of striking phrase. For me, I'm if you say the horrors, That is why I cannot understand, is: are you saying about teaching your what and under MAO's china have what, under you know what happened to stalinist russia but is not just about what happened on the stalinist russia. You gotta understand the soviet union carried on off the Stalin and it wasn't. Tickly gray after that either an and the point. I think that people don't seem to really grasped in the west.

The idea of communism is evil in and of itself, and it leads to evil outcomes because it is an evil idea. The idea that you force, people to be equal is evil, whether you are looking at it through the lens of class or race, or sex or gender or whatever the bullshit people have come up with. The idea that you must. Your hand on the lever and take from people who have drive and ambition and cream, activity and whatever else and you must take firm them as much as possible and give it to people who have none of those things and who are not contributing to society, That's an evil idea and we should just be very clear: we're and the reason is evil is not that it's not a good thing to redistribute wealth and income from one group of people to another is the man of tyranny that it takes to achieve. Inevitably going to lead to millions of people being killed as it has done. Every time it's been tried, I dont, nice, a kite rotation but have made use of the young

although I recognise the stalinist, judges and also most pledges as being one of the great to anything. But this is not sorry wasn't. This is what people dont understand, more people died in soviet ukraine, along from an artificial famine created by the incompetence of the communist state, then the nazis killed during the entire occupation of union right? So it's not about evil stalin who came in and one did you kill. Certain people is about the fact that, as a system, a central planning system in but simply result in this sort of nightmare I don't know whether it does or not, by means of funding that it did I don't know whether you can research project that, but I'm not here to defend so it system right, unfitting, creative and johnny system. We have that right again.

in china. More people died in the cultural revolution in the and in the great leap forward and even didn't understand yeah, so I mean you're. So we can. We can compare statistics notes and I'm against both of those things. So don't get me wrong, but where we're going off Maybe wouldn't enabling obviously welcome even bear that in mind when one up as a wind for making when it will have that liberal, unjustly live, not overbalances. The so the only by the book talks about can associate utopias economic explosion. Accuracy and those who profess to be called tarion live. The lives of privilege is kind of a quite interesting. Take you people anybody that has got Michael Moore all right by me, Michael Moore, no talks a good talk, but it has several houses. You say you say, then he's a angles. Had many factories that old chestnut you call the bolsheviks grifters, that's a good one.

But but you actually, you are known, I think, for tackling the content of what people say, rather necessarily their background. So what is it? line of attack. It is fat line of attack, because I am known for pointing out the hypocrisy of people who say one thing and do another and I think people like Bernie sanders who went on holiday. He not just on holiday his honeymoon was in the soviet union, while people people from my country. That I come from was starving were impoverished struggling TIM too, to have basic necessities. He was there being given a tool by by people. He thought just ordinary citizens who are actually kgb agent, whose own My job was to take around gullible westerners, like Bernie sanders and then he now is a multi multi multimillionaire who preaches socialism, for everybody is hypocrisy on his complete non.

I have much more respect for a marxist like Cornell west, for example. Who actually lives with the things that he preaches. My issues were people who are being inconsistent with the very principles of day, a spouse and in the process impoverishing or loss of omission, private schools. Anyone know just a joke, not What I do anyway to the next is comedians, been targeted is kind of instinct them there. theirs it's gonna, take that common Oh comedians other last bastion of privileges which she got interesting is now hand just take a look in the last. Year, two years or so comedians getting council left right and centre honest idea that the commission should be allowed to say things in the context of a comedy routine, which can it pushes above pushes the boundary. so do comedians should comedians have bigger room for manoeuvre than same menu in his room.

Maybe put another way. Why is it occurred? A comedian seem to be in the forefront of acting challenging those gonna very walk back speech called boundaries that we all have. But up with what is the truth, is that our sins multimedia, most computers, are nowhere near challenge them hope boundaries of the modern society there actually enforcing them, one other maidens Few of us people like myself. AL francis Andrew Doyle, LEO kearse nick dominate. I can go on for a while in this country who are doing that have all been pushed out of the mainstream comedy industry, one way or another, and have had to create things outside of that in order to to even get our voices heard. But the reason that that we are, at at the forefront of that is we're constantly. We we use irony and satire a lot. We say things that we do not mean, ah and in a society which deliberately misrepresents jokes as somebody's actual opinion, a comedians, are obviously gonna find themselves in the firing line pretty quickly.

And and of course comedians though the job comedians are actually supposed to have, in my opinion, is to push back against the dogma of that day. The dogma of the comedians, who the the dogma that existed twenty and thirty years ago when I was growing up my heroes, were people like bill. Hicks and george ireland and others who were pushing against the christian right. Who were the one say. You can't say that you can't do that. You can't whatever they ve been replaced by a religious left, and it's the religious left, there is enforcing its dogma, everybody at the moment and its these and the comedians who are attempting to challenge the dogma of the day find themselves up against that. That's why he's funny: you ve got people in the christian right now defending comedians right to be offensive which to me is just mind boggling what what what about them? Well, let me give you two courts in the book which I just wanted to resolve for me,

one is where you say more and more. Comedians are self censoring for economic reasons and promoters are unlikely to rebook the act if they perceive it to be divisive. What can we got that. then you say the beauty of capitalism. Consumers assert a democratic power with every penny they spend. So we have this kind of consumer power which you described. The first caught seems to be in the cancel culture. The people are canceling. You are not coming to your show, not you one show, but then the beauty of capitalism people are allowed to do that. Not a contradiction or you know. There's no contradiction, because the comedy environment in this country is a complete cabal. It's a monopoly run by a handful of people who decide who gets which opportunities and if the comedy industry in this country, as it has done, decides that the most important thing about a comedy shows that its diverse, as opposed to that it's funny then you end up with a comedy- shows that we have ended up with and then what happens as they get cancelled by the market, but first the ideal logs who are booking, though, shows in may,

in those shows they get to him. Their will on a show like mock the week which, inevitably as cancelled, they get to impose them. well on the show, like the mashable, which I actually wrote on for a while, which inevitably gets cancelled. They get to impose their will on a show like live at the apollo, which will soon be canceled, because no one watches it anymore. So you ve got a deluded monopolistic about that runs the industry and then you ve got the market which punishes them for the things that they are doing. That don't actually meet what people want to watch and I always have say this cause. He always sounds like I'm sort of whining and complaining. I had a great comedy career did everything I've ever wanted. I wrote for some great show I opened for some of my heroes on toy. I did my own show in edinburgh is all fine you can still do. It is just that much harder and because of that, a lot of people a terrified. They want cross any lines, and I can tell you there are hundreds of comedians in this country. He would love,

to be able to do the job that they want to do, but instead the gun around doing dig jokes cause. It's the only thing, that's acceptable anymore. I don't we made up finally than which follows on from that. I suppose you say it was ended. The book you say that, state as an immigrant means in your protected from the worst of council culture, and you describe myself as teflon quoted untouchable immigrant while optimistic, but when I look at lever to everything you didn't care for him, I mean does. Does it may mean? Would that issue that then you're a bit too obliging the two guys a came to be cancelled. Are you two other I too much engaged in supporting the west model now been described as tame before her promise you it's not equality. People usually associate with me No, I think the point of making about sort of immigrant privilege, if you like in the context of this conversation, is

don believed that I would be sitting here having this conversation with you. If I was a british born straight white man that great evil thing, because the book would never have been published in the first place and one particular easy to get a public debt. why there is a people. Don't know this about the creative arts and publishing in this country in general, but there. There is literally like one literary agent and one publish that will publish books like this one and so we live in a very restricted environment and the own the reason. Even those publishers and even those agents, and even those people are able to work with someone like me is they can go well guys guys. You know why it's ok! That's It seems like quite big problem I get his point good inflection through me for a second ok right legend, I've done me bit. It's over to you and again in producer, my inability to turn its an age thing gentleman in the awkward corner.

hello, I'm always just wondering who your literary influences were in writing a book not to imply your ego too much, but I reminded me of all well and maybe even sojourn, it's it's a family member no no precedent. take this lady as well. I have the phenomenon way: immigrants, the most patriotic british citizens is not really a new thing. I think it's existed for decades, unlike america, web of patients more except for you there's something in our character that just quite enjoys negativity. I do. I did. I also don't. I We don't know that. I agree that immigrants are the most patriotic, I think, they're, the ones that are allowed to be the most patriotic and public. I think that's really the issue I think quite a lot of people in this country of every background or very patriotic about burden. But then

are concerned about being because you know that being patriotic has been confused with all sorts of xenophobia, racism whatever so yeah, but in terms of the surgeon it's in comparison and oh. Well, I mean those. Few people I have read so I dont right I'd I'd. I feel very british about trying to compare myself to people that I consider great. I think I actually while I made, you know It's as one. The most formative influences on my thinking and I quote him in the opening of the book and I I actually tried avoid repeating his mistake, because a mistake that he made his when he was released from the camps are huge. Able to publish the gulag occupied. Go and he was invention, invited to go to the west and he went to america where he started lecturing americans about what was gone wrong with their society I don't like that. Joy,

come to Britain, where you love being told how terrible you are. So I in tat. I can tell you how to write your arms, not so yeah that those does it to people that I respect very much. I think they d made very good points and, and the one thing I would say to people because most people having read it if you want so, if you want to understand the way that censorship operates. It puts equally in our society today, red orwell's preface to animal farm, He talks about how much difficulty he had in having it published because even in those days coming back to our conversation about communism, because the soviets were seen as necessary to winning world war too. He was it was very, very difficult to publish a book that was critical of that system, so and it wasn't through hard censorship, overthrew, enforced self censorship on a thing he he writes beautifully about. That very quickly in terms of the immigrant stuff following because on the brake on a topic,

breaks it kind of hit a razor, be word, but you say people, don't hate immigrants. They hit the politicians who say they do two things are really really important point and dismay. No misrepresented by law, the media and unpopular penny risk is there to discredit kind of popular opinion and that idea of populism, which has then taken on, as we said before, taking on this kind of dark interpretation populism rather than being a popular opinion. What do you think about populism the public is gonna, get you kind of his brought in to love conversation these days with, maybe it doesnt deserted by also has given its negative connotations. What first of all on breaks if I were to remain in their referendum and the thing that really changed. My opinion about that issued to the extent that I've changed. My opinion about that issue was I had to watch the can three that I've come to lived in, is a dark skinned. Immigrant or my life be missed

are presented as full of you no harm countries, races, half the country, hates immigrants, half the country's blah blah blah blah blah first of all that the need to make any sense to make us the immigration the people were concerned about was mainly from eastern europe, where people are why so that doesn't doesn't ring true, but also my own experience of living in this country. My very valuable lived experience tells me that is complete nonsense. It does mean to say: the populism doesn't exist, people have all wanted to hear a simplified version of reality, the pan, this tool, prejudices and whatever but I just I just think the way where we have the conversation about immigration is completely insane at the moment. I like ice cream Dont want to eat ice cream for every meal every day, for the rest of my life and attitudes. Immigration is gonna, be the same immigrants contribute immigrants, a gray, but when the numbers become, He did said the like her and like the great man Joseph Stalin, said job for you, the great man,

Joseph Stalin said the quantity has equality all over town, The problem we have with immigration is countries not that immigrants are bad people, it's that and I came to this country- ninety ninety five, three percent of the british public, so that immigration was away richie cause. It wasn't a major issue right and then of the Blair era where more people came into this country in about ten years that had come into this country between ten, so statistics and nineteen. Fifty is quite a big ship, and for people to be concerned about that doesn't them racist, xenophobic or whatever you can be, in favour of immigration. You can think that people like me who I would like to think came to this country and contributed and of creating jobs for local people and blah blah blah blah blah a valuable without thinking the open borders is a great idea. It's it's not that, and, as I did, you know I I talk this in book. Quite a law left wing politicians let alone right wing politicians

have been making. The very point that I have just made philosophy is Barack. Obama was to the right of donald trump on immigration is just ever forgot. It was backbone who maintain the wallet from america. Mexico to me, but on the whole issue, which I presume you discussing in the last session on ukraine, about sovereignty and about borders, is gonna fundamentally in our faces, now, some of which may be those remain as he denied it exists. may be have to rethink any more very modest. Gentlemen. The very back, oh there's, lots. Sorry, I didn't could you aren, t shirts, I just assumed you are like saluting or something take this gentleman. I never go back to the tea. What kind of sessions you think this is on! Pandering to your region, s agenda, breathing,

he Constantine m, he spoke about wanted to have a more objective education system. What role with anything parent should play in helping to shape the national curriculum in the content of their chosen are learning is very timely, topical or issue. Both in the uk- and I think there are discussions about at the battle of ideas- and I because it was the every pound will have their own subject. Your opinion about what should and should be to our society manage them yet since, in question and very much above my pay great, but what I would say about it is I, for the first two years of my life, so from until I was about thirteen, I obviously was educated in the soviet education system, which was very good on the hard sciences, the chemistry, the whatever, but also contained a huge amount of historical, and cultural indoctrination, which everybody knew was complete, bullshit, and so the all of the parent. My opinion partly will be about. You know what the curriculum should be a whatever, but actually everything begins in the home. You have to give you children the context for the things that they being.

so thought you have to inoculate them against some of the crap that they're gonna be inevitably toy any school and You know when I talk about a more objective system. I just I think we are failing to educate children, and I this is true for my generation to and by the way you know when I the school in this country. It coincided with like a five year period of my life, where my family had money, so they sent me to a good school for a very short time before going bankrupt again and and blah blah blah, but I went to a good school and we were taught history terribly terribly I learned more in history by watching a one hour youtube video than I learned in my entire time at school right. So I don't know the the the the gets fix necessarily in the education system, and I think the challenging with the challenges with seeing as a result of the sexual revolution and the breakdown of the family. More, where these issues are happening. Where does not enough parents to? Basically,

teach their children right from wrong that the dead, the stuff the day being torn school? That is completely nonsensical, verses. What actually true and to set thanks for the thing so, as is a new parent, this is probably extreme optimism on my part, but I'm What I'm hopeful that I can teach my children, the stuff that they need to know and protect them from some of the indoctrination they're going to get in school. Very good! Alright! Take these two gentlemen. Statuesque figures think a lot of problems we have in politics in the west, come from the fact that a lot of a lot of people think everyone else in the world thinks exactly like us, so yeah people can understand why Putin would invades ukraine, people don't to stand why someone would both abreks it or just disagree with them on on something do you see us recovering from that? Any any way of of stepping into them but she's an understanding that they have different motives and morals and values in an and they're gonna. act on those in and that drives them.

Idea? I'll just thought. I think the other guy turkey's over as opposed to the question, what you must, what are you most proud of in the past year, the baby, the book or america, putting things very clearly them do you think the whole Culture wall is because what is laws and got nothin to believe in a lack of religion. I would there be a coach If we are to how things really believe- and we want a comfortable, it burst good questions, so The first question is just remind me briefly is my memories. enable people believe that everyone else across the world. How can we get people to listen to each other and understand each other S? Point of view, therefore advise we're. This is one of the paradoxes of the progressive leftist way of thinking, because it's all about inclusion and tolerance and understanding and empathy,

Yet they are the very people who don't seem to understand that the reason people have different points of view is different. Genetics different, a bringing different life experience. Different lived experience, different all of things right and that, I think, is a lot largely product of social media was, I said, certain types of ideas get way more traction. because they sound better, even the often there completely wrong. So I think we will get away from that way of doing business when whenever we find a way to destroy social media, probably the only way I subscribe to have her yeah, let's hold onto them social media, and what am I most proud of well Didn't really have that much to do with the baby. I can tell you is a very limited level of involvement. Not you know what the thing I am most proud of actually is the trigonometry is now a small business. The employs

We, including me Francis and our producer, anton another seven or eight people now about seven or eight people, and I'm I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud that we employ people that we give people meaningful work. The people come and work for us, for very little money. Let's be honest because They love what they do, because they love being involved in a project that is passionate where we, pulling in the same direction and you know front since I have been we ve transformed from firstly to video comedians too, actually managing a small team of people and looking after people and making sure that their developing? What they're doing to me is really the most exciting thing. Although article five yeah yeah yeah Yes, I'm excited by job in terms of the culture was. Are we just bored? I think you're right that a lot of the problems we, in the west, are a function of our comfort and prosperity and

every time, something goes badly wrong. I am right: the hopeful that that is the case that we need, which is like when the pandemic happens, you remember that That, like brief moment when everybody was like, oh guys, where society we should pull in the same direction led spring some food to our neighbour right and then we have George floyd and everybody everybody went missing. That leads me to do what we need to do after people, and we need to have solidarity with ourselves and whatever unjust? There was a in the months that the everything was kind of gun I was not all while we're starting to unite around this common thread that we face, and then you have dominate cummings who was frances always points? I must have been the biggest supporter of be alarmed because it just took off. Tension away from him Happens and the world goes crazy. I mean you see. People posting these videos now, from the summer of twenty twenty, what you ve got, White people kneeling, two black people and I was saying the time what this mental this has come.

Mental at first, I call this a year ago, I've wackles commas so sorry for being white yeah how nice for you, my friends, yeah? Actually, there's a terrific. Have you seen this viral video by russian by russians, that, yes, which has been doing a parody of america on an airplane, it's all a lot of stuff, but they allow the guy the black guy to walk to the toilet. on the airplane, while all the white people can a black is really really clever. Well, that's the thing. It really isn't that clever, it's actually very easy to sat arise. If you can on television which you can in this country. Every trust me. I can russell up some comedy rights as they could do that a hundred times better, just wouldn't go anywhere. I thought his wife and you know I've been on those anyone not funny. It was great. in relation to your views on the mainstream media being,

someone who works within amazed medium in this country. But how do you think what opinion of the media coverage of the war. I mean it's a big question, but what are the strengths and weaknesses in your opinion, of how the war is being covered in here To me, that's a good question. If we want to support me in a mass of generalization cause, the mainstream media is composed of all sorts of different outlets, and different people will cover differently. If I think, if I think of coverage of the war and the mainstream media. I sort of think of the BBC and I think, the bbc has not been inaccurate. Generally speaking, while also. The main issue I have is: I don't think that you possibly work out why the wars happening. Why invaded. What's up, going on on the ground and what is likely to be the future and what are the most important issue?

from the BBC cause. All you see is pretty refugee running away from bombs, or you know that gee bt q survivors of putin's invasion in rather a being integrated with a family Oh great stories, I just don't think that they really educate people some of the issues- and I think so reasons that the alternative media has been so involved in covering this issue and attempting to bring sudden, issues in July, because I just don't think the mainstream media calibrated to educate people and to give them the information that they need. because they're much more in. It is odd to me, because I saw it to think that it's the online space where everything is click bay, but actually I often now with the mainstream media. They are the ones that are doing most of the click back, because going, you know if it bleeds, it leads type of thing and we all get lost family in russia and Ukraine who have all been affected by all of this, and it's terrible

I don't know how much yet another story about the poor victims of war advances, people's understanding of what and that has always been my priority- to try and explain to people why it's happening. What Why does it matter to the west and I think, people really don't understand. You know I wrote this threat. Twitter recently, which was a translation of light? My pigeons later speech that somebody properly I've read- and I had a bunch of mainstream journalist follow me afterwards and ask me questions, and these are people who cover the war I'm like. Why are you asking a tourist and pod castor, what light My preach in saying how come you haven't got a whole team of people, analyzing speeches breaking down explaining to people in the west. What he's actually saying it's a catastrophic failure and its important big. If we in the west on understand, what's going on how the hell are we gonna reactor in the right way? So why haven't you,

I love you probably know more about it than me. I am just seeing the symptoms. I can't explain what the diseases exactly, I think It is probably not a lot of money in in doing a three hour breakdown of what's happening. You this probably quite a lot of lakes in people who, wanna just see a pretty refugee running away from a bomb theory- ok, camera behind usual turnover. Throw away goes to the german there we'll take a white guy first, as it is I just the other of trigonometry there's a grey episode where constant references to for about an hour and all about the story from being in a flat and all students, the imply? They are nowadays a squire life averting party I've been through so much kind of shit, the better term and cunning while the other side, although Anton, doesn't come out of it very well, but I guess he's the butter, the joke, often

but now I wanted to pick up on a point made in the plenary about ukraine earlier on and appoint someone else made earlier about how the people, see western values ads. Also how we try and red encourage people to see them in a more positive way. Did you give some examples of how in severe russia and also impose soviet russia? Suddenly we would take for granted or these if even this room would like level more see all equality or tolerance of speed and so on would be seen by the author tease or that the people who shape ah public. indian and and the culture. What what will we really really surprised to hear would be a cop in view in russia Russia's never had a single democratic transition of power ever ever. The first mention of russia is eight hundred and eighty two, that's the key of unrest that people talk about it.

Ty history, russia has never had a single democratic transition of power right. So that seems to me quite important. that something we completely done understand. It is true of most of the world by the way is true of most of the other countries in the world. Democracy. Is a quite rare, quite unique and a fragile thing, which is. Why has to be guarded so carefully and the the idea that in the soviet union, you would express your opinion in public and The opinion was unpopular and you would be safe was no, he would never occur to anyone that such a ridiculous thing could happen in late ages is why we were having document only about stalinism, my grandfather's, what one of the things I talk about in the book he critic eyes the soviet invasion of afghanistan much light people are now in russia criticising the russian of gay invasion of ukraine and he was immediately fired from his job. His wife was fine. from her job, their children, that's my father

and my aunt. What kicked out of university for one comment that he made in private? and there are people in Russia today who initially one invasion happened. They went out with placards to protest in the placards would say for peace. They would get instantly arrested and dragged the went to prison. So then started, going out with no black out at all, just standing with their hands in there and they would get arrested the eye that you should be able to protest against your government because you disagree with it. really occurred to most people everywhere and the only way the day I To do so is to go out and get the head smashed and by the right place as you see in russia, as you are now seeing in iran, as you would see, as you saw in China, of course, it was tenement square and not just tenement square, but it was at work. Is a country wide thing? What happened People in the west absolutely do not realise how rare and unique and precious what we have here is to the point

you wouldn't even occur to people in other countries. Of these things are good things to have, because I've never had them. Yeah it's funny when I was taught in china, for about six years and when I first took my johnny students outlay offered by the madrid many good. It was twenty five thanks for that by more drink on. In one go said: I don't drink in public, so you think ok, what the hell does that mean Didn't so I can of harangued sufficiently that she explained that in In the seventies, the family was used to have their meals outside in the in the village, and then grandfather got drunk and said too much and before you know it, he was hauled off the father was hauled off, just a family rule, not drinking. blocking only like moments like that when coming you ve lived it right, but also when you realize this is a different system perception about. You know what your personal private versus public experiences,

I think it's gonna very useful to have to remember that these are very, very different. Social systems and cover difficult as somebody laughing at the back there, but never to grasp the kind of their conception. What what what china mindset might bear on it? That doesn't know maybe racist but is generally, if you want to understand how they think about certain things and interpret them, because it's of such a different historical magnitude to what we've had in in the west, so it's going to very important point. You raised a process. like locals, only been london, my so oversee, nor the only place you'll get from the locals when we showing some environment, as we want to japanese tour, get to do what Wasn't talking about very low pills. I was talking about our community on local

you mean the. What will you give the nominal behind the scenes concept which you like youth? Basically, these being when you get was incredible. Guess, like Jordan petersen for one stone, wilbur sam harris, Adam corona had a hiding and others your questions, not just that you can get supports a only benefits like trigonometry mugs monthly calls without other top supporters and even a regular meal with me and Francis. You also give the normal befallen the seams footage of our trip to America, where we met a whole host of incredible gas and gave ourselves terminal indigestion. we are also starting to de monthly give a wasteful locals. Only the first one will be signed copies of andrew doors. New book pass. You can access to an incredible community of like minded people who share means conversations and, most importantly, you get to meet. You

brings. You can support us with as little as seven dollars or about five pounds a month or give us more for the hierarchy of benefits. Go to trigonometry dont, locals dotcom, go to trigonometry, don't locals, don't come in. support pull the show, take the gentleman federal that these ok, such a system is, you said you had cast iron emigrant privilege BP, before wondering how longer that will last given, and that view the I in general, the left have now discovered on the last two cabinet that your black and asian People can be taught his tail and in some cases, significantly the more right wing van, the m fun fun in the thunder cup cup cabinet colleagues and also in a in america, there are more hispanic people he voted for for for trump. So so is a narrative of the gammon,

white privilege is that going to hold forever, although they have to come up this- is some kind of new kind of funny. nation about he d problematic people out there You gotta use a huge in immigrant yeah. Well, I dunno, I'm I'm internalizing the phobic. I guess I know I I think it's it's funny, isn't it because anyone with half a brain knows that immigrant communities actually tend to be more conservative on particular social issues than the native population. Yet we pretend that ethnic minorities have the sort of monolith who will believe you know in eternal progress or whatever it is. I don't know how that issues gonna play out. I mean I don't know people in this room feel I dont know how people in the country feel I I think, many of these ideas. You know that idea that a black cat member of the conservative government, which is frankly useless it among, but nonetheless a blue, cabin. A member of that government has internal

this racism, a cause they have the wrong. opinion. According to some white leftist seems to me to be slightly discredited by now and so I dont really, I think increasingly people take less notice of it. I think the way we are having this conversation in this room is probably the way it might have been had two years ago. I think world starting to kind of to realize the two bora one of that delight: the language tricks, we have done to realise the gas lighting. That's been happening, anything more and more people. Will open their eyes to how much crap they ve been sold about two, and I think you just particularly as the. as the make up of our society changes. As we see the politics, increasingly reflects every ethnicity in this country increasingly reflects every variety of person, whatever I think, issue will probably go away because believe me and people like you and others. Just we were a kind of immune to this, like if I mean someone once called me, a nazi osgood jewish, not the best kind like it's.

It gets silly after a while. You know what I mean: ok, this gentleman, whom I am so, if a bottle and if we don't, you're oppressed? Well, yes, I mean I mean I'm probably a fake racist nor the northerner nobody's ever call me out. I went to BBC, so I can't really say much on on social media is about. Politics are not allowed to have a view. The bbc run by a guy that used to market fizzy drinks, to fact kid so the on bill hicks his views on markets is you you, I'm sure, will remember for this question. You both and immigrants letter to the west. Have you had a letter back actual letter or a direct response back from an individual and what was it, what was the best one It was douglas, marries a very generous view in which he he sort of peace. He thanked me for writing a book and he said that the feeling is reciprocated both on behalf of the west, which was her

they in dublin style and who I love, but a, but yet that that was you know right or left or whatever? I think Douglas murray's, one of the most inside full public commentators that this countries producing in quite some time I don't agree with douglas on everything. I agree with him on a lot of things that he says, I think he's the courage to address a number of issues that nobody wanted to be honest about ahead of time, and so when he wrote a review. Suggesting that you know he was grateful to me frightened the book. You know that meant a lot to me any hostile ones. The review No, no, no revision letter, the concept that you written. Broken. Oh yeah, we always funny. There was a woman on twitter who followed me after. I translated that putin speech and she was so enthusiastic about everything that I said about says you absolutely berlin conway to read your book next day,

teach she just like sent me. A hundred like hate, filled messages about how wrong and bad and terrible my book is, as are those of I managed to persuade one person very quickly. Yeah rigour toby. I run a kind of old media website, crews. The daily sceptic was locked down sceptics and we ve had a number of problems with censorship, so I think facebook of currently banned the daily sceptic facebook account. We were closed by paypal. How about a month ago. They eventually change their minds, but for when it looked as though they did that because they, We were guilty of spreading misinformation about covert nineteen vaccines. And I wondered- and I know trigonometry has in the past- had some similar problems youtube, is being removed. You convinced that your being shy no band not convinced? We have the right to believe that we have evidence directly. Have you been shut up and I wanted em

as trigonometry has grown, grown its audience, as has become a business with seven. people whose livelihoods your paulina responsible, has your how how do you now navigate this world? You d find yourself going to self sense, a more and more to avoid this kind of actual censorship by big tech no, because I firmly believe in and francis Anna and I think, a whole team is united in believing that the poor of trigonometry is to explore difficult issues. I think, the moment we start doing, that. I dont think the people in this room would be in this room. So week we cannot sell out to that and if the, The day comes that we can no longer do what we do on youtube. Then we find another way of doing it, and if that means that we all have to take a hit, we ve always been very clear. Every time we talk with you know self, Frances and aunt on about the you know. Well, maybe we should like

give this person a bit more salary or give ourselves a bit more salary, so we can do whatever we that's, always with the understanding that you know things may go up as well as down because of the nature of what we do: war I am very concerned about Toby, as you may know, unite spokenness about this before and you ve had some issues will pay pal recently. Is that If you ve got the wrong opinion, you can't have a bank account, which is the direction we're going. That is, very very dark path, that is a very dark path and that's got it, we ve gotta fight so hard against that cost. before you know it. You're not gonna have electricity. If you got the wrong opinion, I just think I think that that is the did. The most scary thing to me: and I wish more people would focused our attention on their courage been on the conversation in terms of the pay pal issue. I just can't my pay pal account precisely because of your problems

But what do you think cause? I'm a I'm prime opposed to consumer boycotts. So I had a bit of an ethical turmoil as to whether I should be doing this what a view or whether I should actually be not endorsing the idea that I can bring my consumer power to to to to play on distorting a a decision making processes how'd you sit on sorry hug, you sit on it will. Thank you for Closing your paypal account. I think lots of people days are all very well, but I think I think the number of people who did may have contributed to the decision, to restore the three accounts of mine that they closed. I think that's It often hear a slightly different I came into the when you made, which is that. Well, why should we fatter? freedom of association of these private companies by saying they can't discriminate against certain customers on the basis. a political beliefs. You can always go with another payment processor that isn't going

discrimination that when the market will solve the problem- and I think there are two arguments against that- the first is that first of all pal is a monopoly about eight times. Law than its nearest competitor, and it's quite difficult to make a success of sites like trigonometry in the daily skip which depend on donations, amongst other things, if pay pal closes your account, the second thing is, I think you know it's already people on the left, like james, I bryant making this kind of look terry, an argument as though they'd suddenly joined the institute of economic affairs. You know he says why shouldn't they discriminate against you. There are free company, is a free society, but you wouldn't say the same thing: they discriminated against someone on the basis of the color of their skin or their religion. their sexual orientation, and I think your political. Leave should be in the same category, and you know to your point constantine. I think we definitely do need to do something about this urgently, to prevent the emergence of a chinese style, social credit system in the west, except you know, without com

these two authorities enforcing ideological orthodoxy. It's these capitalist corporations in california. What can we do it? well appreciate union is lobbying the government to amend a bill currently going through parliament to make it more difficult for companies like paper, and lots of other financial services companies to discriminate against people on the basis of their political beliefs. Whether will make any headway- I don't know, were certainly hoping to do that. and I never should know we're trigonometry of huge funds of the free speech. You know. It is really important, and you do great work. Can I just add one other thing is well coming back to you Question about. You know self, censoring to protect our staff or whatever the one point. the guiding principle of my life, and I am fortunate to be able to have this principle because we live in a time where people like you and I and burn the stake, Is that the truth of it is that in our society? I think, if you may, You stand on principle that cost you in the short term.

It probably will benefit you in the long term. At least that is, Leave that I operate by I'm sure at some point it will turn out to be untrue generally my the way I to carry myself in in the world is based on that idea, which is that if you stand up what's right now you may suffer the consequences early, but In the long run you will be vindicated them actually shown to be correct and that will reinforce people support for you we'll find an audience of people who believe in what you did that you know. I know did a lot of opposing of the government's restrictions around lockdown, which was big concern of mine as well, and I was free Actually you know sending quite rude messages to government ministers and whatever, who now to me are you sort of right. You do not remain and so I think that standing up for what you truly now to be the right thing. I even one is It will benefit you in the long run, and so from that perspective, if at some point

comes to that, we are starting to have trouble with dull payment system or whatever We will find a way- and I hope that people people had been attitude, I think, would be making more progress faster I do think in the modern world. It is genuinely true, particularly because you know you The phrase between are able to look after the little man who may be doesnt have a big platform doesn't want to build a big platform. They just wanted to make a joke a work or whatever What I mean so yeah. I think what you do is very important. I get lovey lovingly. You'll appreciation saying yes and good until this last year place lady My question is following on from self counselling and I'm gonna beat just touching on the sea word more capitalism comedy, I see comedy as a high level of intelligence and I'm wondering how can we sustain it as being an outlets, basically walking that fine line between being

offensive to some and not offensive to others through council culture. How can we sustain? Is it through purse? in the iron me look. There's a couple of answer them in the flip. Announces comedians need to grow some balls, I suppose, but that The bigger answer is, I think the internet is the answer. That's why I'm so opposed to the online harms bill unknown lime, whatever it's cold now they keep changing the name but the In my view, the biggest issue that we face of a weird sort answering the question with my back to but the biggest challenge from my perspective and and the thing that I am most most focused on is. We spend four and a half years on trigonometry, pointing out the hypocrisy of this woke idiocy

and also challenging some of the anti woke a dsc. That is also now starting to emerge right, and that is good for as long as that was happening. The problem that we have is, if you don't have a positive vision of a counter culture. People aren't going to buy into it right, and so I think what we have to start to do is to shape a puzzle the vision of the counterculture, whether its comedy, whether its anything else and people just have to go out and do stuff they gotta go out and create the internet allows you to find your audience so from a comedy perspectives. That's part of and then his the new dad part of me, which, as you know, I think this. Doomsday narrative that exists on the left, particularly to do with environmentalism. And on the right there's, a sort of recent may be equal, but there's a similar sort of you know the way his old decadent, did and and do devoid of any values. So you know, let's let vladimir Putin take over he's a good christian.

But whatever nonsense, these people about it's boring but there's a sort of like you know the world's over type, a narrative, and that is just nonsense and people need to have more kids know. You are more kids. Are the solution instead of being the problem That's gotta be a big part of it, and then we just have to take an honest appraisal and culturally about environmentalism. When we have to be honest, we have to say the climate is changing. Human beings contribute to the world gonna end in ten years, and if we, would all the energy that we poor onto paintings into actually working on problems and solving problems. Technologically, we'd be a lot better off and by the way we wouldn't be buying our energy from our enemies, making ourselves Honourable making ourselves unable to respond strongly like we ve seen so that positive counterculture is forming I'm having all sorts of conversations with all sorts of people.

I'd sort of behind closed doors at the moment, but believe me, there's a kept counter. Culture building comedians are going to be a big part of that santa is going to be a bit. Other movies are gonna, be a big part of that, because if you look at the output from hollywood and and wherever lost deck, I mean, are you still love the cinema? go, I've been to the cinema, for god knows how long does it all crap right and that the demand is that the market will fulfil it is long as we're still allowed to do stuff on the internet. The market will decide one under less than I. At the moment we ve got a conservative government support for free speech and anti work. Issues is positive, but at best fable we ve got. The prospect of a labour government very very strongly coming in the couple of years. Do you think we're all going to be swimming in water of a different temperature than content to let in front

you mentioned that there is a marxist problem in Asian and, as a student, I wholeheartedly agree a fright but whenever I do her history essayed to professes, they want you to write about history in a certain way. My second year. I did a module soviet union and the professors just kept talking that kept saying the western historians? It would essentially they saw so many negatives in the soviet union, and so we should we were there. Advise against using their arguments- and I say that I remember a friend of mine, she's of keys, half ukrainian and she felt she passed felt really uncomfortable In a lessons because these professors, you know they ve, never lived in a slovene and before it kept saying aviano. Wasn't there, some things. I won't great bar, you know the other thing We can still praise and in a clearly. The soviet union was a sinner generally, I you know a bad about thing,

How do we solve this issue of you? The marks problem in education thinking I dont know that you can solve the marshes. I'll come back It's the journalist question. I don't know you cancel, I mean. Academics are always gonna lean in that direction because they like ideas that don't work but sound good. This- is what they do and this is something I come about. Its melissa. Can I dont? If you guys do Mr Chen? I'm a big fan of she tweeted something a long time ago. She said you can remain woke when you're building anything, whether that's muscle, whether that's a business, what that's anything right. So the moment you shut you get in the practical, real world youth start to be confronted by the reality that people are not equal. They're not born with equal, intelligent, so equal drive or equal passion arising, and so

The people who live in there in the towers of academia there always gonna, be slightly deluded, and I think the way that I get solved is the way you're solving and which is crucial thinking you were there you're being aussies to do these assignments. You start to see. The flaws in the arguments that are being present to you and I dont imagine you're gonna come out of that experience being a marxist so that, we cannot solve? The problem is in your case and I think, eventually, over time, people will grow out of it I don't I mean academia is important, but I think culture is much more important and I think that is really. You know the conversation. I was the point I was making to the lady. There is if we can change the culture, everything else will go with it and that always gonna be marshes professors, You know that's that's just what they do, but so on your point about the conservative government, I mean I have some conservative friends who will said this, isn't really a particularly conservative, government and I mean they're, probably

The probably less woke then kissed Armas party might be, but so pushing through the online safety but which is as andrew doll will tell you failed with critical social justice. Let language an ideology from start to finish and is, in my opinion, if not purposely, build and certainly accidentally built precisely to suppress the sort of counterculture imagined that I'm talking about where people are free to make jokes on the internet, free to speak, free to take risks, I trust so but yeah I mean the only thing that could possibly be worse than the current shambles is a labour government which we're almost certainly going to get yeah. So it says happy days and on and high as if it is a shame that fuel So you anything just in terms of what the lady was saying. Their cause Staying the way you phrased it I mean party, I agree with and pilot, I'm I'm just a little and a word about when you say ukrainian student was where it actually being triggered by

be saying that you know what was going on in the ukraine was still the fault of the ukrainians are whenever it was on this. In so I see no school of oriental an african studies student union about two years ago. I did a big tackle that argument. How dare you why western experts, professors, home just gonna professors who had spent all their years. Understanding africa have today they teach african students, because now, what do they know now? They have not lived experience neighbours current imposing a cover, western central understanding africa on students, rather than maybe a knowledge of a one. I can't speak to the opposite of the point that not only are doing it was, I think,

fact is if there was an element of that in the question right, but obviously more broadly than that, she was talking about the fact that, as a you know, a marxist, and you know the tune to what some of the students electrodes are teaching them. So I think I'll, just tidy worried about the middle ground. Of what was being said, I mean, I don't think that the teachers have to be rational. The soviet union to have an opinion on soviet history. Stop they were kind of insensitive. I mean it's like you just can't? You cannot ignore certain things that happened in the soviet conscious brush away just because the dominant, because the dominant, I see that you know it was was bad. When a disagree. What the west says, because in the workers I mean, for example,. I have a teacher professor. He was very knowledgeable, but you're my family's from and in japan

Why- and I don't disagreed like everything a bad thing that you know about about where I am from because he's why I'm just saying that you conscious just you know, forget that some things happen. History that are basically I actually speak to this very point in the book. I don't I you ve read it, but I talk about in one of the chapters why the soviet union was brilliant. This all the reasons it was genuinely berlin, free education, free health care, free child care, you know very high standard of education on the hard signs, is equality for all much. less wealthy and income inequality that we have in this country and, as I say in the book, it's a pity had to be killed. Fifty million people to make it and that's kind of tradeoffs right, and I think the point that you are making is is very valid. One, is you, ve got people who are essentially saying you should disregard a particular way of looking at this issue because it all western. Would

seems to me actually the exact opposite of the argument that has been made. So I agree with the complete it is obviously bus. Wasn't the pilot picking up when I pick it up on the point of her friend yeah, who is upset by what the lecture was saying very minor point in the entire equation? So I'm not gonna go you know what I'm saying is. I think I would also be quite upset. I mean I would. I would demonstrate differently. Yes, Cassandra, contrary an asshole, but if I was in a in in that classroom, I'd be going. You have no idea what you're talking about this is what happened. This is all my fault, fighting back arguing the case. Exactly wasn't the plasma usa, so the I think the biggest er, problem that we are all facing a my a lot of people like us, slight, the sleeping giants are waking up is what's happened, and I'm old enough to remember, since the seventies is this, is this creep of pay

It's modern marxists and in the elites and the universe, you're triggering austin yeah yeah, it's post, modern marxism, economical, you want what is the combination that Jordan peterson? I made a good point about it and what's happened It is especially in the humanities, but is now creeping into propounding. Mass now is so. Why supremacy and that's look it up I was happened. Is that all the people who are educated In the humanities, go into the media and go into all these big corporations and into government and its it's an infection runs deep in all the most powerful elites in society and all the big organs of communication and the difficulties were having

whether its pay, pal or facebook or twitter is, is simply because There is a. And there's a shout. He elite, backed up by gratis, hamburg and others who who get the oxygen of publicity and a monopoly on the on the public debate and said, The big challenge, and what we really need is a proper alternative market place, which is europe is what your doing in your own way. They need to get bigger There needs to be an alternative to pay pal, but the problem is, as someone is, save these these guys are monopolies. They're not they're, not capitalist at all. There they are. They are corporate monopolies that anti capitalist Capitalism is all about being able to get you vote with their feet. If you don't think this works

may somewhere else and we need. We need a leakage where we can get out and challenge it. thank you very much? You met him and he's not here. I am at this time. One. Sire? I really liked your sub stock article about how to destroy a progressive argument. Three steps to do, I am Why do you know? Where is the they didn't take. On what grounds can't remember, I believe these are no mine. By the way, I should say it and want to take credit for thomas souls workers yeah elder these atomic souls, three questions compared to what at what cost and one hot evidence that you? How hard every ten years here end I especially like your point in terms of how the one for logic to progressive ism You know abolishing prisons if just presume everyone has a good nature and people only commit crime.

because they filed by the system or office in just simply being bad people. And I guess a one to toss. You know war are we seeing any dangers at the moment of the excesses of progressive fish, beyond dino sierra theoretical posturing and academia. look look of sergeant shrugged, but I tell ye it's a good, really good. Questions of will talk about thomas all in the second cause. It's real important. But if you look what's happening in places like california, where we just came back from in terms of releasing criminals from prison. Terms of not arresting people if they stealing stuff from a shop. That's worth less than nine hundred dollars. If you're not arresting, people who are sleeping on the street and you know actually giving them the support they need, because most of them are drug addicts and have mental health issues.

is that they need treatment for then. Yes, you create a progressive hellhole that the productive people move out of, as has happened with California, so of course You see that, but the really interesting philosophical point that you pick up on is that I mean I don't know how many people here familiar with thomas all, the american economist and and many other things absolute one of my favorite thinkers and. he wrote many many varied books, but one of them is called a conflict visions in which it talks about the two visions of the world. People have in one of them. It is what he calls the constrained vision. is the idea that human beings are fallible, they are flawed, they are imperfect and the very best way to understand how here beings are likely to behave in the future is to look at that. We have in the past so If you look at human behaviour in the past, you would not be surprised when russia invades ukraine, because

people have been going to war for the entire time. The human beings have existed, in every other area you you accept that people will commit acts of murder and heinous crimes and it's not because they ve been conquered failed by the system, but because society It produces a certain number of people who will commit crimes, eve given opportunity and motive, and whatever the unconstrained vision, however, is the vision of the ability to perfect humankind. The idea that is it the all the great revelation raised whether as the french revelation of the russian revolution underpinned? All of that which is we can transfer? humanity. We can can you man, homeless, of etiquette is what he was called in the soviet union? Who can reprogrammed away from crime away from having more allegiance to his family than to communism or whatever? And it is this ideology is progressively ology. That isn't there

of a lot of things, including the fact that we didn't really plan how we will deal with russia in this sort of situation because what I'm saying is I mean it's all this time, the roma. I new this serious patch him para. If you want peace, prepare for war, because war is always coming and it is the people who are strong. able to resist and prevent war by owing strength in advance of the war right soap. There are all sorts of areas where this very optimistic, but inaccurate way of thinking is damage in our societies internally, but also politically and ice. A big problem find worker. Congratulations on the baby. Thank you and this is a good service in question. So what would be your advice? second generation immigrants suffering from an identity crisis. like may saw, for example, I was born in the city, but my faces from Egypt.

school. A small minority is called me. A terrorist fast food production later Mohammed seller? also so. This, I think, is a key question that, as the identity crisis, especially its top down, it seems to be with destroying our values and, if there's nothing that puts us together, then what is your advice? Yeah? it's a gorilla, good question? Actually a really good one to finish on, I don't exactly what you mean because identity, the crisis is two words and what you are personally experiencing. I dont know, I think, in terms you know being bullied at school and all that sort of thing. The divided I think that my parents always taught me on its very bigoted and prejudice, but they always said look there's a bell cover like you in society I some people are idiots and the

but who are being races to your probably idiots, see problems you just ignore them right, yeah of course right and that the deadline that one of the tales of the of the belka right So that's what I would deal with, but in terms of your identity. Now I would a key. What do you believe? Do you believe in western values. Do you believe in british rallies. Do you believe in democracy, jubilant, freedom do believe and the right of people to speak their mind, even if it offends you or This and, if you do than yours british is anybody. You ve come to this country your parents came to this country and you grow up here. You are british, is anybody make yourself british contribute to the society? I dont know you. Do for a living or were you going to do for a living? But for me you know when brine asked me about what I must pay, like I said I was proud of that. I contribute to the society that I've build something here, the other people benefit from and if you do that,

I dont think you need to have an identity crisis. Your face is not for me get your faces from wherever you faces. You know you jeanette eggs are what they are, doesn't make you anything other than genetic people can live in it. possibly you ve got it upon. You want to make the values that we knew but yeah uphold the values that in your work here, but if it oh crumbling around me, then there's nothing for me to hold onto stands at the moment is even children living in the uk yea and this the doomsday narrative that I've been talking about, and my book is full of warnings and predictions about things going wrong. If we done, but I believe, its people, like you and his people like me, and it's like everybody else in this room that, if We believe that these things are worth defending and we actually defend them. Then they will not crumble. That's why I wrote the book And I think that's why you asked the question, because you don't want these things to crumble, because you believe in them- and I think you got a linear, my friend you gotta go. This is what I believe are.

Stand up for I'm gonna fight for it and if a crumb, the crumbles, but I've done my best. I think That's the answer to your question. I think it's very good point yeah shut out the flaws to have very. Very finally, I mean my two penalties that I mean: don't have an identity crisis is going to have to do with your identities. Do your what you believe, what you think your politics are on is broader than your person identity, I'm welsh by very to tell you that, because I got nothing to do with anybody I place very, more time in my life I more it's in democracy and political ideas That said, I also think that, with the name progressive, which is why we started the conversation, now and abuse them, because everybody use progressive and said. they are the most reactionary twice. You can have a

that's right, so I think we need to either say reclaimed some of these words or use them in a different way from formulation We need to understand what progress means. Progress development, as you say, an environmentalist it's about development, not sustainable development, is about really tough humanity being put first saw I'm a great proven that by also means reclaiming idea of marks because no, not not begun, frantic, eventually marxist browsing, There is an abuse of the of what I've heard today is just while marxism is but on that what's that, you overmuch becoming very, very generous of you to ask your questions round of applause. Thank you guys! Thank god. You don't have it on the box go now. the shall provide, presents, pool sheets from aha to yours. I suffered from the wrong kind of patent bed. He induced insomnia. That was,

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