Meet harper, a teammate at truest lou. She was born to care and always had your back. Like the time her friend's bumper car took a gnarly hit. Oh no he's retainer when flying, but harper caught it before it got crushed today. Harper is a teammate at truest the bank, with the truest one checking with no overdraft fees, one hundred dollar negative balance buffer and automatic upgrades, the truest one checking has your back to you. When you start with care, you get a different kind of bank, dollar negative balance buffer eligibility requirements upon truest bank number at the icy welcome, since we're gonna commentary on France's pasta on constant and kitchen, and this is a show for you. If you want only. Conversations with fascinating people. A burning yesterday is an american author, Michael malice, welcome, trigonometry. Thank you. So much

very excited it's great to have you on the show, listen for anyone, who's, not familiar with you. As with all, I guess, just tell everybody a little bit about who you are, how a way you are. What has been the journey through life that lead you to be sitting here? Talking to us do the work that I have absolutely no. This is what is this. This is how this works. We fuck off just get used to talk. I Whitson contest the bergen King and I gotta go through all the talking. This is always kind of odd. I guess I was on the other

their dear reader, the unauthorized autobiography of Kim Jong IL, which is a book about north korea and pretty much everything you need to know about that awful awful place. The book after that was called the new right, which is a look at the kind of alternative right wing, including the all right here in the states that culminated in the trunk victory and my most recent book, which is, I think, we're we're here- is the anarchist handbook, which is anarchist, handbook dot com, which is a compilation that I've written or compiled, to be more precise when people kept asking about ethnic as a means of all the people, when an anarchist authors, the last couple of couple hundred years in one handy package, while you save the last book, is why hand here certainly the case, but also your your previous book as well. Then you rise something that will incorporate into what we talk about, very much on the spur of getting you to do the work, one of the things we kind of chalk on on our show is the political landscape and that how that's been evolving over the last many

is that so many aspects of that which we could get into. But let me ask you a very broad based question, which is what is happening in the west, particularly now english fear. In your opinion, what would you think of the kind of focused points that we should look at? I I dunno about should, but I mean there's lots of things that are happening that I think are historically unprecedented, and I can't speak that well to british politics, although I follow it a fair we closely what happened. I say about. We import your shit five years later, all analogy as late as a unit. I don't you have a backwards. We import your shit, satchel led to rake in the fabian society led to the council of was where's the call to see whatever it is here? So the brittan thatcher talked about this are books right behind me that you guys, a kind of the petri dish, and then american ideas follow suit. So I think it's actually brags it presage trump. You know, there's a similar phenomenon.

the states- I think we are at a kind of- and this is always the case in politics- kind of an inflection point because for them- asked for years, so much of the sound and fury was about tromp in reacting to him or supporting him, and we have whatever his latest outrage of the day. I happened to be whether cynthia if your feigned now that he has left the oval office and these lockdowns are kind of receding into the background. I think among thought leaders, particularly either the corporate press. There seems to be a little bit of confusion as to who the latest boogeyman is going to be, who they're going to rile up the masses against and and create, as the villain of our time, they tried to do tucker, carlson to some extent, Matt gates is a congressman from Florida, and- and you know that what happened on January six, but nothing seems to be sticking their. Doesn't

To be the outrage and the frothing of the mouth, which was so entertaining to watch over the last four years, what we are seeing, I think and which I am doing my best in my very limited power to escalate, is an increasing division in american politics and an increasing inability of different political world views to have any kind of conversation at all, and I think the further that happens and I think it's increasing at a fairly strong pace. it's going to be for everyone involved. Cheating part of the problem, Michael, is that we now can slight politics and morality so, for instance, people on the left thing people not only wrong about their political opinions, but they also evil, etc, etc.

Well, I'm from the iron rand school. So I don't understand how one can separate those two things. I think the moral and the political are by large synonymous. I I don't really understand the claim that one can make politics without you know moral basis for it, and I think what we are seeing in Jonathan height covers this very well in his book. The righteous mind There seems to be a sort of

His crusade mindset, which I think is absolutely wonderful among people who are you, know in a broad sense of the left and a broad sense of the right, which leaves very little room for moderates, which is something I'm very pleased with. You know having you know, enormous amount of consent for people who described themselves as moderates, so having that kind of us vs them mindset. You know as an anarchist is a very useful tool towards breaking down political discourse, which inevitably ends up in loss of freedom for one group or another it's actually greatly bring up moderates and why you why you despise them Francis? I probably consider ourselves moderates what's wrong with the moderate of someone who has no principles in theory is going to be a very little use in terms of putting forth their ideas in practice. In a poem,

go sense, especially when you are dealing with an enemy class which is inherently malevolent and if they had their druthers, would engage in just the worst kind of atrocities. So to stand up against that and say well, we need to hear both sides. As a physician, I don't to be tenable, I suppose it's a question of definition would like and maybe llodra, isn't the word. I suddenly think of myself more essential than what I mean by that is. I have very his strongly held views and principles that are right of center and equally strong and and of strongly held principles that are left of center, but it's not an absence of principle. It's just my principles, don't tend to match neatly onto the rye or the left? Did you see what I'm saying yeah, but that just kind of makes you a bit of a you know a gadfly doesn't mean you're in the center I mean so I don't. I think that word is it

just to me just noxious, because it just speaks to people who, like described themselves, what kind of agnostic, because they just want to address the issue at all. So I I died. What do you see as the efficacy of describing yourself without label yeah the criticism is valid in that I am not satisfied with the label. I just. I know that politically I dont align without the left, the right under seem to be another pigeon hole for me. What I can more than once in one question: do you think some people are better than others know? Well, that's it we're hold on venza Is it the demon more valuable, or do you mean superior in one way or another? Do you think some people are better than others at some things, you ok, you're on the right. If you are on the right answer, yes, and if you're on the left, you have to give a speech, since I think that is a litmus test, the people can use to figure

if there was no answer, he claims to be that all old school left wing can you can you deepen, came live on ass. Many people who are all school left wing would be regarded as the right there's this this very silly idea, which I'm positive view too, don't ascribe to which regard right and conservative and republican and torreon synonymous. You know, as as people who understand world politics to claim these three, these terms are. Interchangeable is very bizarre, but it's a very useful for corporate media, because if there's two choices and right equals republican or torreon your case and left equals labour endemic? grats, and I dismiss one of the two teams, then, in a binary fashion. Therefore, I've proven the other one and things get very simple. Right and left are just complicated, nuanced positions and they depend on what the access happens to be. But this kind of attempt- and this is also done in local parties as well to reduce it to you know, I'm right, therefore, I'm

boris Johnson who is identical somehow did teresa may it is re at all, as if sir care and germany orban are the same phenomenon either it's a very our tony blair is it's a very wacky waves, dissimulation If it is a very whack, you have systematic zation doesnt. Not therefore, mean that our political systems and all are no longer fit for purpose, because I dont represent us adequately. They ve never been fit for purpose. That's the basic anarchists critique that the idea of representation is inherently not just false, but nonsensical. What does that mean? Elaborate on that I'll bet, meaning that if I go to the supermarket united infinite choices of what's it by to drink, breads, so on and so forth, but that I have to pick someone who's going to speak, for me both for foreign policy and for health care and for taxation, and I dont get to pick the person I want,

because a lot of my neighbors think otherwise. This is a very bizarre claim that, if I vote for tony blair- and I teresa may then Teresa may represents me. I want tony blair to represent me and obviously they but run against each other, so that cold basis, which were all many people seem to accept would only be regarded even as I bought. This is, if we ve been trained to believe is since birth and government schools. If someone came to you as an adult and say if you vote for person a but alive the people vote for person be person be represents. You wouldn't even make Since is it as a hypothesis like? What are you even talking about this person represents me. This is my lawyer. This is my account, and this is my doctor, but when it comes to politics, it's a popularity contest that I really don't have a choice about it. It boggles the mind

am. I can't you made a point and it is a perfectly valid one. So what is the alternative freedom, but what does that mean? It means that if you want someone to be your doctor, this is who you have as yet, doctor- and it is what you want, is your lawyer. This is your lawyer. You can fire them at any time and anything that is his darkly done through the state. Can either be done voluntarily or should be done it so you, you leading us nicely down the garden path of the argument you make in your latest book. I guess the question most people be asking this point. Well, that is too ways. I can ask a stupid question, which is what most people would ask mozilla come unto her letter, the masses, let let's do it or even about the masses acts. I think the masters actually wouldn't ask this question, but a political journalist market which is or you think there should be no stay and that's a very

simple way of asking us, unless do that? First, yes, and what would that in its place. Where would be what happens when you I'm going to apologize to you guys over across the board and what happened when we abolish king George who's gonna be the king. What happens if you leave the cap? church who's, gonna be the pope. So this concept that you need to have some kind of political figure had to represent you. I ended this person is irreplaceable. It is you know, but but those two things, while not those two things, but king George was replaced with an alternative power structure, one that you guys in america still fighting to shape exactly as you want. Here he was actually replaced with the power structure that was upset self replaced in a coup in philadelphia, the constitution convention. Where that it was a conspiracy, wherever one swore themselves to secrecy, locked the door and basically overthrew the government through largely peaceful means, the replacement for

ni organisation would be, you know, infinite people opera. Adding solutions and everyone else. in a position to either use there. Services or not, but our this applies to security. This applies to health care. This applies to education, no matter what field you're thinking about where you want more freedom, more choices, which means more peace and more. Tom happy neighborhoods: are you tired of using false what it's giving you a bodes? Well, you don't want it to be my own, what it was massive, so it brought all the ladys to the yard, which was accused distraction and going the way of my stay in work on trigonometry ridge, wallets happening, credible solution to do this mine, sleek stylish and with an industrial look too. If can fit twelve cards with cash. On the back, using a flip like this one or a strap, we ve got one for the whole team. I've got one francis as one

even our produce anthem has won, but he's from liverpool seeking he floaties, like the glory thing about rage is that they give you a lifetime guarantee, which means, if you walk, I have only one wallet for the rest of your life: rich are so confident in the quality of their product. They will give you forty five days to test drive their wallets. That means you can get the wallet use it, and if you don't like it, you can return. It within forty five days, because wages such worried guys are going to give you ten percent of and free world wide ship and returns to take advantage of. This incredible offer: go too rich dot com, its last rigour, that's rich dot, com, lashed rigour and use our special code, which is, of course trigger Ok, so little, let me ask the slightly more intelligent question, which is your. I enjoyed your conversation with Jordan petersen. We do we had Jordan on the show a number of times the george, the pizza sony in question here would be well

human beings like many animals or almost all animals record living hierarchy. And are unable to exist outside of one so one hundred percent. So what would it hypothetically? What would happen if you get rid of the power structures that exist as an out another power, structure would emerge and roman history would tend to suggest that the people who are most vicious most brutal, most well armed, etc in that power structure would initially take over, and then that would probably settled down into something lobo, more peaceful. Isn't. Are you not just opening up the door to like a violent struggle

between small groups. Essentially, if you do that well know that you're, describing is the status quo, so in politics the most vicious sociopath are the ones who end up getting at the top. What you would have in a decentralized system is when you have like, for example, he I dunno how it works over in britain, but let's talk about here in the states and the police right. If you have a police officer who engages in ways that is murder or just completely outrageous that I'm not talking about a racial element, there are things you could go on youtube, there's just infinite cases of the police acting in ways that are just completely agree aegis. There isn't having a government monopoly on this as having a govern monopoly on anything means. There's no accountability, there's no space to really make things better, whereas if I have an issue with, let suppose harrods right and I want to return a sweater parrots policies very clear- we have a dispute. I want to return the sweater, they won't take the sweater or they will it resolved quickly and immediately. If harrods is, I go into harrods and I get beaten or taste for whatever reason very

quickly, I can go and social media and this becomes scandal. Even if I was in the wrong that what's amazing thanks to things like publicity and and dynamic communication stories, blown complete blown out of proportion and out of context, but the the issue is very quickly. The issue needs to be addressed. whereas, if you look there's a case here in the states of this young man named Duncan lamp and they had a no, not warrant on him out enough, you guys have that over the appropriate might not raise a good even the the line I always had is even Stalin had the courtesy to knock so they break down your door and then it was, I think, three in the morning he was in bed with his pregnant girlfriend or they murdered him through the window and they dragged her through the broken glass. They won't release the body, cam footage

and none of the police are having any consequences. At the very least. If you had choices insecurity, there would be some. There will be consequences for the perpetrator and you wouldn't have the ability to choose another agency as the one providing security for you, and they would be immediate, huge social media and probably a corporate media reactions to this consequence, as it is having a government monopoly and having the corporate media very much in bed with them, which I certainly have in the uk here and the states. There are no consequence for everyone and everything swept under the rug, so that is one example of how, if you not having govern monopoly and had competition and choice. There would be more accountability and less murder by the state. Ok, Michael, so all gonna play brought with you. So let's say that works on a national level. What about a global level we're going to have countries like China you're going to have

Countries like russia, totalitarian regimes are interested in power, land grab, etc, etc. Doesn't leave you open and vulnerable to these talks of nations. Whose why aren't we invading Canada? Why aren't you guys invade ice doesn't have a military? Why hasn't Britain conquered it, and you wait till you can't put sent my well actually. I would argue that, because they live under the american umbrella protection, like rifles west short, so that the point is there's just because governments exist on earth does not mean it gives them is not tenable. I'm not arguing it all that for this perspective to work it has two were globally. china will still exist, but I dont understand a mechanism. If say scotland, rights, scotland, seceded from the uk- and you know they just did not have a government became stateless society. How is china going to be invading them or any other nefarious nation other than britain itself? But you are not advocating this for scotland you're, advocating

America, I think, will be easier to invade scotland into invaded invade an anarchist america. Don't you you're not getting by the way out, and many scots of it, who thought that I have not even advocating this remark unjust, advocating this for whoever wants it and if it has to be a small isle of wight or whatever, that's perfectly fine with me There's, I'm, not someone who thinks and the historically- and this is- The west must appreciate if you read comic books, it reads: I buy movies the guys who want to come for the world of the bad guys, so I'm in no clear case advocating that this has to do. and it has to work on a global scale. It is my view that if this does work, it'll certainly attract people towards that area and Doesn't work. Ok, that areas disaster in neither case is there a claim that this is something that needs to happen or should happen on a global scale.

and you ve been touching- I cheat on authoritarianism. This is something that I really wanted to speak to you about microsoft, com, so you ve got your roots in the in the ussr soviet union. You went to america believe at the age of two years, all wrecked com since it is from the ussr? My my mother's venezuelan, we vote legally earns different forms of authoritarianism, one of the things I ve. I'm ready, shocking in the uk. I don't know as much as in america. Is this how willing people in this country were to submit to an authoritarian Let's call it what it was no authoritarian rule, but not only that also too nix on their neighbours, oh yeah also to be to have a you know to feel this sense, a paranoid everything they did and everything they said the way we descended into that just seem to happen. Practically overnight did that surprise. You.

It surprised me to the extent, but is useful information h I'll who, in who I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with, was a great newspaperman early twentyth century, and he had a quote which I've been using. I think, on a daily, This is in the last few months, which is the average man does not want to be free. He merely wants to be safe, and I do think that's the case. I think if I'm average person- and I really don't want to stick my neck out- and I want to be someone in It- will a fish? That's not a bad strategy for me. I you know I'm going to put food on the table. I'm going to have some modicum of happiness. People like to claim that we're living in nineteen. Eighty four, but I think Aldous, Huxley's brave new world- is a lot closer to the reality. Instead of that hard with our terrorism of you know the stalinist nineteen, eighty four you have the soft

corporate authoritarianism and come to the office. Do your job come home. You can watch crap television, a crap food, but you're never going to have to be worried that you're gonna have to think or that anyone is going to threaten you, given that that's the case of the mindset of the two typical human being a democracy on it's face is something I do not, therefore find palatable. It is, and I have a different preference, their preferences for safety over freedom. That's fine! I'm not interested in changing their mind. What I am interested in is creating mechanisms to make sure they are not in a position to use their fear of autonomy to have restrictions on my freedom and now how that would work out is obviously very complicated. Long conversation, my gut, tells me technology is the best way to make this happen, but I agree with you, but with the other thing that I think is of interest, that people need to appreciate is what the lockdowns gave.

is a position for lower status people to have ways to increase their status and to a certain dominance over others, because I saw this on the subway I was, I would add, my podcast, so I did. I could actually go into the studio, on a daily basis and first of all, seeing the new york city subways deserted the middle the day is something very surreal, it's hard to describe as a lifelong new yorker, it's like being in a movie. And I'll never forget this moment I put on my instagram. This is a year ago. It's takes it after me to get offended, and this was really one of those moments. There was an asian dude in his thirties. You know he was very western in his appearance that this wasn't someone who was, you know some kind of stereotypical immigrant or something like that, this older man, his fifties, white man, stood? over him on the subway literally screaming at him, Why aren't you wearing a mask you're in america so on and so forth? Just the most base vulgar xenophobia, and that's a word I think I've ever said,

for you know even thought about, and I realized weight of any if you are really scared of this virus, which I can understand why you would be why you getting physically close to him. The train car is quite large. This guy's a jerk he's you know in your in his mindset. Okay, he's a moron doesn't speak english, whatever stereotype you want to ascribe to him get away from him, but clearly the guy felt empowered and understandably, so, given the context of the media and the culture to scream at sea and over in a very aggressive manner and in another human being. So, given that this is not an uncommon I set, and we ve seen it over and over people were proud of themselves to turn on their neighbours and call the authorities on them. You know I had this tweet, where there was a huge reaction to and I stand by completely won the questions we always had in the west and I'm sure everyone listening. This is thought about one point: their life is: how did

you know nazis and happened right where the germans, uniquely evil, was there's something where they just you know everyone just like I gotta get along or else on the next target and what we saw is that, once enough of the kind of decision makers create an out class or an enemy, very quickly. Everyone is champing at the bit to kind of joining them. So, these people and social media love to think that they're, the ones would be hiding and frank in there but what we see is there not only turn them in turn her in and her family there. Go and social media boasting that they kind of turned in someone who is the enemy and I'm doing the right thing and I should receive accolades for it and that kind of scary aspect of the mindless malevolence which is so common to the average person who does not really a thinking being, is something I think more of us

increasingly coming to grapple with now whether this is good or bad, I think is secondary. I think once you have data, you have to accept it as a given and make decisions accordingly, as opposed to thinking in some kind of weird leninist way. Well, we can just remake these human. Beings and make them something there, not all the evidence. I've seen as to the contrary that these are roughly the equivalent of barking dogs, and if you have barking dogs, you have to deal with them as barking dogs, and I thank you. Down. But I'm saying right: we ve got a lot of dogs, this neighborhood. What are we going to do about it? It's interesting, because I I put a tweet out exactly saying this very thing. What you've seen in the last eighteen months is which side of the barbed wire fence he would have been on yes, great metaphor and understand, That is quite a scary realisation, so you just think, This is what the mass of the people in this society, at least on in your society will will lead to in times of crisis, particularly pandemic.

No historically people become way more quote: conservative in times of of disease and you, but you at the same time you ve said I don't know whether it was a throwaway commoner. You mean you meant that you're writing a book called the white pearl language. You in which you gonna express optimistic about the future. Yes for you, but for many people your version of optimism is a kind covers optimism, which is your. You are optimistic about the breakdown of the society we have, because you expect a better one to be available down. The line is all right. No, that's that's not why more optimistic, I'm not going to stick. Is this I don't want to spoil it too much, but when people this is I tell people, I go when you look at jeremy carbon. If you look at you know nancy policy whose the how speaker here or you look at the new york times today or you know, whoever

Your bill in of the moment is: are they really a more competent powerful threat than hitler than Stalin event? The newspaper people of eighty years ago, when we didn't have social media, to call them out on their malfeasance and depravity depravity so when you put it in those yet you when you look at these people who the people are on the side, the angels, which I certainly regard myself as being are up against if you regard them as unstoppable foes to me seems deranged, I might jump in. Let me jump into the the thing is I I where I I agree with you on that. That's absolutely the case, in my opinion, where I disagree it'd be very strongly is that we are up against those people. I don't think we are. I think we are up against the jack dorsey's and the mark Zuckerberg's. Who, who are you using the power that day

have to shape the way society is causing susan, which it can do we absolutely love. Please don't shout obama, yes, exact, I'm I'm sorry, but I dont think jack dorsey and mark Zuckerberg, even if they were committed idea, logs intent on spreading there. You know agitprop, which I dont think they are to the full extent at all. Are any comparable to you know the stalinist era and the c p, especially in britain. It's it's. I dont. If you asked me what mark Zuckerberg hijacked jack politics, are Neither none of us know really fully. I would regard them as this kind of the left, the centre, typical urban. You know elites, but at at worst, these people are nothing in terms of both their motivation and in terms of their vision,

of what is this? I should look like to be more about the fact that they can take down the president of the united states and prevent him from speaking to the people that he normally speaks to. Just look, I'm not in favour of any politician. being allowed to speak to her half but by an that's the glib answered. The serious answer is they are not in a position to completely censor the president there in a prison, She too as censor him, I don't. I don't even like to use the word censor here, but the position to block him from using their mechanisms to speak. but there there's no shortage of alternative sources for him to have immediately been able to get his message out even when they're doing their best. They can't do anything about it. Meanwhile, if you look at seventy years ago- their entire schools of thought, which were not only we got word completely invisible, but were regarded

As for radical, I just nonsensical to even discuss so I think that I am not a utopian. I look at improvement and progress in a context. I think it s a topic, but you, I think, that's what people have the kind of recently by us right. So we look at things that have they been the last ten years, I'm taking the longer view, and I think, if people do take that longer view and compare things to how they were to look at this look at the winter or discontent in Britain I mean in the seventies you guys didn't have electricity, I mean he's just bizarre people don't realize because we have it so now, even during these locked downs, how bad it was basically yesterday and we forget about it because we weren't there or because we're not living it and that's just the seventies. That's even talking about the forties and authorities which were just compared to today, absolute nightmare, just opiates,

in part of your worldview markers is informed by by your roots, as it were, the fact that you probably had parents, grandparents sonny you about what, we like to live in the soviet union. So you have a point of comparison. Have the same constitution has the same, but the reality is for a lot of people growing up in america or the uk. They don't understand that because they that has never been explained to them. some of you write a book about that guy says they too little beyond within a year you're about it. That is the message. That is something that you as it as a fellow countrymen, appreciate the complete naivete of people in the west of just how that it can get your from Venezuela, I mean it's, that's like the unspeakable hours, a going there, we're just completely of oblivious to it There's this american idea, like other suck, The russian mindset versus the american mindset right, I had a. I have my pay decent rent, my rents, pretty low its below the market cause, I'm a good

and I had an issue with my sink and every Americans like just go, complain to your landlord and make him fix it, and I go gotta eat up like from the russian mindset. It's like. Ok, if cost him a hundred dollars to fix here. can going to raise my rent by a hundred dollars so now now twelve hundred dollars for the year instead of big it myself this concept that authorities are self serving and cats, their attention is a bit like the eye of sauron is something in the west, maybe two last year it every day their heads, but those of us from eastern europe and from venezuela appreciate. We do not have that perspective, The authority, as you know, trawler benevolent. We, u dont, inherently her like our eye. I may have to pick up this. but I have to be aware that it has teeth yet what year funny. You you mentioned that your writing a book about. I'm also writing a book called in immigrants, love letter to the west covering all night much of the same ground, but we kind of

hi jack! You when you on the train of thought about your optimism for the future and part of I hear you, if you take the long view, absolutely we live and better times, and we have in the past. I guess the question I would have for you what it was one of the things we also know from the past, as things can go from very good to very bad quite swiftly and allow of the conversations we ve had recently haven't exactly left us or audience with the with the sense of optimism about the future, so why you optimistic that things will get better from here, rather than a lot worse. A lot I very quickly sure. So I think there is an increasing amount. Certainly in america can speak for Britain, although I would suspects the case there, where the population by large. Certainly the ones were kind of intellectually curious have are just completely tuning out the agitprop coming out of corporate media and the universities.

And the politicians it's no longer used to be even ten years ago, several put forth an issue and then you're you spend time discussing the pros and cons of the issue. Now you increasingly especially with, since trump you'll have some politician put forth an idea and its debt on arrival. There is not even a pretence that we're going to sit down and have this discussion increasingly. People think that the other two correctly is not engage in good faith, a good issue- and this is gun legislation here in the states. Obviously, we have much more liberal in that subject in the classic liberal sense than they are in the EU. Kay, but for a long time it used to be a right Democrats will put forth it gun restrictions. The conservative argue about gun restrictions. Now conservatives are increasingly standing okay. This is just a nonsense. Article argument, there's no thing is an assault weapon, air fifteen standard weapon so are,

sir, isn't going to be to discuss things with you. We are going to put forth our bills. We are going to increase gun proliferation, which is the best answer, two gun control. So at the end of the day, no matter what you guys are staffing your feet about, there's nothing you gonna be able to do about. It said that kind of change in tactics to as opposed to we're, going to argue issued by issue as now we're going to look at your techniques, disarm them and make sure you can't use them in the future. That is very, very healthy, Ann coulter, who is obviously a very controversial figure who says things very provocatively made a good point in one of her books where she said. If you're a republican, new york times is in calling you racist, you're, losing there have been school shootings in america, which is something that is just unspeakably horrible and tragic,

whenever these things happen immediately, the next day you'll have politicians trying to leverage this argue for gun control, and this used to be for the gun rights, people, something that would knock them on their heels. And There was a huge media campaign after other the school shooting in florida, David hog and all these kids. You know regard as propaganda figures. We should listen to the children to somehow they know what you're talking about. Why? Why they're in school? I do understand if there's a wise just like don't work, but that's a separate issue and there was no I was shocked back and forth on the gun rights issue there like we're, not having discovered and this is when the bodies were still warm said to have that kind of change where you know they're, not engaging good faith. They're, not letting a tragedy go to waste. We need to take these people at face value, that's fallen away and that, I think, is a much more effective Strategy. Where you understand all right there is over

is going to be a group. You could make a call themselves republic in the council's Democrat, who are interested in oppression and putting forth their cockamamie schemes. to the population, and there is increasing people who are like right. What mechanisms can we put in place that whatever be Ass they put forward in the future? There not can be able to do anything about it. Here is another great example. There was a lot of hand wringing in twenty sixteen about the american election, putin, putin, putin, the russians the russians russians, was not legitimate. Twenty twenty the day after the election o this, The most honest election in history, somehow tromp in forty years, went from being complete, corrupt to being a complete angel. When it comes to democracy, I don't know how they manage to talk out of both sides are mouth, but they don't care, it's whatever furthers their gender. The moment increasingly, because many these ballots were mailed in which is open to fraud and not at all claim you there.

A systematic fraud, different republican states are putting mechanisms in place to restrict once ability to vote there. They are god. This is racism. The clan nazi isn't blah blah blah. With their realizing you're gonna, be called racist It's a clan regardless. We might have, well changed the rules that we win because we're paying the cost of having these this outrage and an insult to rate we might as well be the benefits, so that kind of approach is think a big sea change from how things used to be ten years ago, and that is one big reason for optimism. Hiv in strategy for those of us who are in favour of freedom, which I do not regard as sonata democracy, of course, and opposed to you to what many small but calls the cathedral, but my mark, let me put sparkling out somewhat because

isn't debating idea is the very foundation of our society and by debating ideas, don't you find that actually you ve and where the stream sought to your argument, you find out where the weaknesses are, and you find action. You truly find what out what you think, because you have your ideas challenge and the second part of the push back is the weapons that you use against your opponents will invariably you used against you when they one in power yeah sure so, first of all, I don't think the base. It was decided, good ideas on the basis of a good societies, peace and I think the biggest threat to peace is the state aid is only the state that can wage murder in a systematic way. It is going to state that can reach theft in a systematic way, both through theft and something taxation. Excuse me cynical the girl, ass. It forfeiture out enough. You have that over there over here with some nickel acid forfeiture, which is very bizarre, looks legal system, which is, if I'm a police officer- and

I believe that you use your car, your house, your bank account in furtherance of the drug trade. I can seize it, added to my budget and then you have to go through a whole legal process, the over europe have any money, your car anymore, to try to get it back and, as a result, Is this. The total of acid forfeiture has now in america, surpass the total of all burglaries combined. So that sort of thing is something that has to change immediately. I'm not interested in having the right ideas or the wrong ideas that is secondary to me in terms of food, the table being secure. My person, you know all these other things to its I am perfectly happy being wrong as law as I have like mass those hierarchy of needs being met, there's lots of people who have disparate disparate ideas in every Three by definition, many them are going be wrong. I still want them to have food, they wanted to be secure in their proper person and their families. That is much more primary than having the right ideas. What I'm so,

in terms of the tactics? It is my view that the enemy club I will use any tactics in its capacity to an including mass murder, once you realize this is what you're up against you have to start fighting so I do not agree for one second, that the villains in either of our respective countries, the only thing that is restraining them is their inability or not having a need at the moment to put these tactics into practice, but in terms of

like kind of oh. Should we really do this? I don't think that's a concern their part at all. They genuinely for if you watch those footage from belgium where there are people sitting in a public park and police on horseback were clubbing old men in the face because their outside in a park, I dont think you can put anything pass. These people aren't, there was talk, was in their talk in Britain of going door to door to make sure people were staying, homer or being vaccinated. we're talking about here. It's just. I I don't see how you could put anything past these people. So Michael, I want to ask you actually a question a a longer question, but the short questions who are they sure? So it's the power structure, it's the ruling class. So who is the exact sure it would be the universities. So how is it that idea the universities, which are literal monasteries of the progressive faith, their promulgated in turn into a kind of asleep or cells or

shock troops there, the media and entertaining industries where sir mindset is regarded as not as true in just a given and then its promulgated further through government schools and public school teachers and then its implemented, but if necessary by the state of the police hey, francis think about all the times used. Wi, fi, coffee, shop, hotel or even a pair in this house. happy memories well without express vps every site you visit could be locked by the advent of that network and that still true, even when you in cognitive mode, even when you in incognito, among still happy memories more what's more, your home internet provider, I'm talking comcast a t and t whatever can also see and record your browsing data and they are legally allowed to sell it on to others. I'm sure the school you trigonometry is now going to be a solo project.

Is why I use express wp express weeping and is an app that includes all of your network data and re routes it through a network of secure service, so that your private online activity stays just that private Unfortunately, so, sadly every saw you visit every video you watch or message you send, gets tractor data mind when you run expire feed ban on your device? The softer hide you ip address so expressly. The end makes you activity harder to trace and sell too advertising fitted up sooner garden, full and the best part is how easy it is to use. The apple literally has one button you tap to connect and your browsing activities secure from your parents eyes France's policed.

crying. My new suede shoes are getting wet. If you don't want to end up like me and stop your parents from protecting your privacy, go to express vpn dot com, slash trigger and get three extra months for free that he x, p r e S, s b, b and dot com, slash trigger, go to express vpn, dot com, slash trigger to learn so get coming back then too, to what you were saying about your reasons for optimism, which is, if I can translator correctly, do correct me. If I get a wrong is of the left. and I say that the left has been using certain tactics against the right way. She is calling them names is a yo. Yo here. I don't like that expression. The left right. Because there are many people who we are on. The left who are

amazing, human beings, whose ivy I disagree with an issue that, but who would be first and foremost, to be fine this thing. So I don't think this is a very kind of boomer conservative, at which have not you guys hold now is not. The left is a monolith which is just his it's and worldwide just right last out, so yeah exactly and it's always a struggle went when talking about these issues, because you're trying to speak too to the way the conversations being had at the moment so that I'd other progressives, who is it that's been using these tactics of calling everyone names and sure so with britain, I mean if it was just down two names: we'd be entered. Utopia right. Can you imagine this? Is my gold mine all is to have a free society where the word thing someone can do is go up to you and call the most horrible epithets, which is basically what I do in a database on twitter. You ve not been the case right the worst thing so can do. Is you know in

my mother and call me just just just the garbage person, but they may be right, but least we're living peacefully and civilly, and no one has to worry about a knock on the door and the filth barging in. So what I specifically refer to in my previous book than you right is evangelist progressive event, jellicoe perfectly iranian jellicoe, progressive ism, I'm scared to say London invoke the I've sovereign talent and its basically a totalitarian worldview right hands on conquering every aspect of society which does not regard as anything outside. It for review I'll? Give you a good example. If you look at at I talk about this new right as well. you look at video games. If you look at cypher movies right, even places people go to escape reality. Other planets, other dimensions back in time is not safe,

to be outside their purview? They generally feel that every aspect of our culture, including our bedroom, is something worth. they are in a position to not only a pine, which I can understand that you can make the case for that. Everything should be up for discussion, but to impose their perspective on how to live. If this is what you are up against the you know, this kind of absolutist universe, so ass to tell it here in mindset. There is very little room for negotiation and you have to create tat. You're not gonna, show a creation. Is fossils and disprove their worldview they're just going to take whatever evidence they see as furtherance of their produce, Active right, I agree with that, so it may be aggressive, woke kissed. His is a better way to to summarize. I didn't, I feel like calling a focused and years why? Because, in britain at least, it has its roots in the phoebean society which started in the late eighteen hundreds and for those don't know there.

scott was literally look this up because it sound like something like a crazy person, a saying, a wolf in sheep's clothing because their argument is all right. We can have a total military dictatorship voted overnight, but where we can, do is death by a million cuts, little a little we implement? These de as and by the time, we're done we're going to have everything within the context of the state later they were realized. You know, maybe, for calling ourselves of wealth in sheep's clothing were shown your hands, so they say, their mass got to a turtle or a tortoise rather, but that these, people are playing the long game they have for a hundred years. They ve been after everyone's children for over a century. The whole point government schooling is in their words to create good citizens, which is a euphemism for breaking young dependent minds, banishing critical thought from psyche and making a man

able, subservient and interchangeable with everyone else. They got the idea from bismarck and oppression model where his idea was ok, let's take schools and basically create an army starting from age. Five. Kindergartens, there's a reason why the german word. So I think when people real, is how long this has been going on and house stomach and deep. These routes go there's going to be a lot of opinions in terms of what the consequences of this have been all right, so these are even jellicoe progressives, as you call them. That I was just coming back to me question that I'm still desperately trying to ask, but I appreciate the clarification because they are important. They. I have been using these tactics against the rest of society or whoever. is that they yet aid they dare targeting them out. And now

You are optimistic because some of the people who are in terms of the examples that you gave in america identifiable on the right, the people who care about gun rights, etc, etc. They are now fighting back and ignoring the tactics and not then the century not complicit in their own demonization. Right there were using to play along in this stupid game right. The end now, if I play that movie forward, does ways the ends- and I know you're a big advocate for one of them you get a civil war or you get a peaceful separation of the united states into runs, dates and blue states. Designers and That's a medium term golly us I mean, and this claim this isn't so one of the lies we hear here in the states is that any kind of national separation has to be done violently they're like. Can you give me one example the country were allowed secession, it's like yeah, czechoslovakia breaks. It nor

in Sweden. These were all done very peacefully and everyone lived happily ever after. As a result, briggs course was not a smooth transition, but it was hardly you know violent or I see a lot of male treasure got thrown man out of my face. One fly and there were four sites- were hauled on twitter yeah, yeah see, but I've been you guys. We wish our whereby I mean the joke is important, because the techniques they use is look as bad as thing. If I, the choice between the status quo and other american civil war. I would probably use the status quo, because this a war was just a complete, now Mary situation, the loss of life and property and and and recovery was unconscious, so it's behooves them. You know, the kind of like you. Don't want your battered wife to leave its like baby you're, not gonna, and anyone else was gonna love you as much as I do, and at a certain point you you realize. Oh, this is allowed

I they're saying this because they realize I do have other options and they have to persuade me to stay because they have to pay the alternative as full of just blood and destruction. You realize realise that there's plenty of consent, Recounter examples, and you know, who's got Do what who has the will to do this? It becomes very clear which option is preferable I'll. Two final question in this line of discussing this is interesting to exploit intellectual. If nothing else, the seems to me, the obvious contradiction in your argument is that you ve got these people that you refer tooth. It will use any means, including up to and including mass murder and others. I'm time you think they will let half the united states go peacefully if it so chooses that doesnt seem to square to me. So Al Qaeda is a good example. Al Qaeda would have no problem committing mass murder. They just don't have the power to do so. So at a certain point,

it becomes a matter of? Do they have the will do they have the capacity? And I and the more people are becoming aware that this situation, the heart is going to be to pull off their bull crap, you had the american civil war, you know, do they fought it was. It was not at all inevitable. What happened? Was this south at something called fort sumter, which was the north consider northern property. They had a barricade and then they fired a shot. We wouldn't have been in world war two rightly or wrongly, not at all, implying that it was the wrong thing to do without the attack on pearl However, right previously visitor per harbour, this is a european war. We just did that with woodrow wilson, the great war Why are we killing ourselves for them again? We just went through this. This is a complete calamity. Then there's a strike in its like all arms on so it's not at all inevitable that there would be a violence at all,

or that if there was violence, it would necessarily lead to a large scale. It could be. Very. The civil war, for example, is, is a good example. When there, when it first started the south, the confederates, who are, I do not at all regard as the heroes. Let me be clear: had an opportunity to seize washington, take over the white house and hold likin captive. They were so invested in their ideology of national sovereignty that they felt. Okay. If we crossed this line across this rubicon, we're gonna be hypocrites, that they didn't do it. If they had done it and kind have been a little bit. Hypocritical the war could have been resolved very very quickly. So it's not at all the case that if there is a conflict that it has to be that long or that end in the even if they will look at it this way, let suppose there's a hundred thousand people who agree with me who want separation if their put down with great force, which I am terrified to imagine that still have to take five years, it could be

it's all very quickly, so it's all a matter of willpower end and that I think this decreasing amount on behalf of some. These people, certainly among the masses, so my call. The question I want to ask is what Paul to the corporations plain this, because as many people argue the complications and now far more powerful than any government, we can see. This With regard to taxation. They sent you do what they want, how they want whenever they won the day, don't do what they want. However, they want because they can come in your house, any kids. One of the tweets I had, which I certainly think is that corporate amerika has done it. Or a better job of writing. Now, ism than the chinese. It is party ever dreamed up in the states, so I went rights were happening here. I tweeted out that thereabout forty eight hours from getting corporate sponsorship. It was with in minutes ended up happening, but I mean

you you laugh, but growing up. We were all taught that court relations are basically like mild republican. their country that if I die what the cigar, whoever pops out, so the golf course I'm or or like mitt romney, you know, were like David Cameron. Ride like that's the corporations is this kind of vague we right of centre doesn't want to roll or feathers. You know just wants business. Everyone The long and his kind as milk toast mindset we're seeing instead is given that cooperation, are almost exclusively manned by people who are the products of these universities. These which are spreading. These deprave malevolent ideas once they are in place. This is gram she's marched through the institutions. Then they are going to without having to have any one in their ear piece of organic spreading this kind. ideology and philosophy. Now does that mean we have to raise harvard to the ground

I know. Does that mean it would probably be a net benefit? Yes, wow. So you think that, because Surely that we can reform institutions, can we not michael or create and it's all great alternatives. At the very least this one, ok golfer, explain why we create alternatives I have more and how and not reform institutions. I think so, institutions are inherently irredeemable and I think it's so useful in terms of morale to wash them raised and burned to the ground, because that's a concrete victory that people who are less intelligent can point to regard as an accomplishment at it in a very evil sense. If we look at nine eleven them, have been incredibly motivating for the terrorist class them at least because we're in north korea that's the book. I wrote obviously nor dear reader what they often talk about is we're shrimp among whales that were at times a country, and yet we are giving the finger both too

it, china and the united states, and from their perspective this they do that? You know their punching way above their weight class, so I think, any institutions are inherently evil. They ve been evil for a very long time complicity and things like that. clean and genocide. Hitler, Stalin is something they ve never had. Accountability for and I'm not you're still in accepting their apologies. This two years after the fact for what they have done, I'm interesting in watching them be destroyed and suffer in the process. and how you re only some of you. The mindset coming three hours now I can. I can feel that you have put women. We talked about creating alternative institutions, It's not you do that sugar. I mean. How does anyone create anything you have? I have an idea. I get capital. I put my

shingle up, and then I attract people to my venue of creating alternatives to unit. first is going to be increasingly easy, because apple. I had a fan who Yeah we're gonna, show all of our age and how he sent me away retribution, he said. Oh, can I he's from my school paper. I looked at his tomb, the kids in high school. My kid I'm not taking money from you, goes. No! No! I haven't granted the bank- I do e commerce right, so it's there hard to tell this person you should go to university for four years and if I'm an interview were recruiter. And I have two resumes. This person went to cambridge and this kid in high school is making your grand a year, because he invented a website who would I want to hire now the harvard guys going to sue or the cambridge guy excuse me is going to have technical knowledge and he's going to have a look, bringing lots of tables no question, but in terms of being competitive, It is not at all clear to me, or I don't think to anyone that

Clearly the cambridge guy he want to choose from as opposed to let supposed forty years ago. It would have an absolutely clear where ok, this kid, some young entrepreneurs made some butchers shops. This guy went to cambridge you know, if I'm playing roulette, I'm putting my money in cambridge there we go Michael has been an absolutely fascinating interview. Thank you so much for coming on the shot we ve got a couple of questions for our local supporters after this bar or interviews always end with the same question, which is what the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be. That's a great question: I'm not a big should person, but I think what the issue that, I think is the least discussed, is the increasing inability and european parliaments which is going to spread to the states to form. relations are. You saw in the swedish elections. You saw in the italian elections on the czech elections increasingly waste.

And you're, seeing in germany now, where the elect Is going to be september and for the first time in german history, they're gonna have to almost certainly have a three party coalition, whereas historically it's always been wanted. Then under merkel she's had to have a collision with a social dumping. This inability to form a majority while iceland, another example, majority in terms of putting forth the states vision, I think, is a very healthy thing to the breakdown of having a government monopoly, er yeah, true to the cause, all the way to the bitter end. Michael listen has been a after chatting with you at all. I recommend everybody get all your books of the new right I particularly enjoyed, and the anarchist handbook is that is that the one the atlantic, one anarchist, handbook dot com? Yes, fantastic stuff! Thank you for coming on the show, and thank you all for watching at home. Will see you very soon when another,

an interview like this one or shop and they always go out sevenpm uk time to pm eastern to eastern standard time, take care and see you soon guys. We hope even join this incredible interview remembered to subscribe and hit. The bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here, trigonometry is important supporters by joining loafers community, using the link below.

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