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as with seeing emerging around us in america in the united kingdom in Europe today, it tends to become whoever shouts loudest perhaps the the most powerful lobby group. It gets to determine what the moral code by which society is to be organized is the hello and welcome to trigonometry I'm frances pasta. I'm constantly. Listen. This is a show for you. If you want only conversations with fascinating people. A brilliant guest today is a christian theologian and an ecclesiastical historian, who is also the author of the rise and triumph for the one self doktor carr.

welcome to trigonometry thanks. How million guys it's great to be here? It's a surreal. Pleasure to have you on the show before we get cranking I've. Given you an introduction, you have, of course written a fantastic book Many bugs tell nobody who doesn't know who you already, who are you? are you where you are? What has been your journey through life? The leads you to be sitting here talking to us on the yet another point: cost, as you explained, to us before the side well I I live in. The united states play school slippery rock, which is about forty miles north of pittsburgh and western pennsylvania, but you can tell, by my accent I was born and brought up in. The kay born in Birmingham grew up in gloucestershire. Consider myself a west country boy emma some, you have a follower of gloucester rugby club study at the university of cambridge classics and then went to you as you have a date where I did a phd in reformation history and tore the this is of nottingham Aberdeen and then irreplaceable, westminster seminary and in philadelphia emigrated here in two thousand and one

Primarily my work has been in reformation history, but five or six years ago do two things going on in the the township where I live near philadelphia. I got sort of pulled into The whole transgender issue, which lies partly behind it, the books, I've I've written recently in so I guess now has been very little time on ecclesiastical history and most of my time talking on very politically incorrect topics with with guys like yourself for married, two kids, one grandchild does fantastic were very happy to hear that.

but you mention the trans issue and I hope people on this point on board. This is going to be another conversation about the trans we ve had plenty of those. I think everybody knows what they think about it. This point really. I don't want to talk to you about that, but the reason I think that people like you are really in the mind at the moment. Suddenly, from people like us is francis now what we ve been fascinated by history, and I do feel that historical perspective gives us, has a sudden explanatory power for things that happening in the present. An your book, the triumph of the self, the modern self, rather really talks about our self perception changing over time and how we view our selves changing over time sure the trans conversations part of it. But it seems to me that actually, what you're talking about is the entire world view that we as human beings, have of our selves has changed in a dramatic way. What has been that change and what has caused. In your opinion, what great question

one of the things that a lot of people all of the mistakes. A lot of people makes me. We tend to view things like the transition in isolation. We don't set it against a broader background of things that have been happening over a long period of time, particularly in in the west. Again, I know you don't want to keep on the transition, but just reflect on it for a second. For for the statements, I'm a woman trapped in. his body, to make sense. We have to have come to a position in western society where we intuitively give our inner feelings, tremendous authorities or authority that even even aces the authority, the external authority of our own bodies. So what? When you look at it that way? I think that the question becomes: have we reached the point where we see ourselves so much in terms of our inner feelings rather than for fauna, better external obligations? Why Is it that I think of myself ass, a

feelings the dwell within, rather than my connection, to my location, to my feet. lay up to my ancestors to my employer, to my local community. All of these things have become somewhat weaker over over recent years. So the answer the question is it because we ve come to order Those in is any feelings. How that's come about is is interesting and complicated story. This there's an it. What we call intellectual genealogy, we can go back and we can look really from sixteen seventeen century onwards as to how the the emphasis upon the first person the eye become so significant philosopher, like descartes. I think therefore, I am or could go to an essay starlight maintain whose who's the first real writer in the west, who uses the first person systematically in his writing. Rousseau. Eighteenth century Geneva

ass. He is the man who says you know really you're born free, your boy in pristine, its assent, that message you open it. It message you up by twisting and perverting you your natural feelings in your natural instincts. So we can talk is that intellectual genealogy going back really to the sixtieth seventeenth century. Most people, of course done, Reed montana re data that red russo, but when you think about messages that world around sends to us now that shapes our intuitions. We can see yeah the self, the enemy, the eye- has become more and more important for, for a variety of reasons, I think of music. For example. I use this example in class Two three hundred years ago, if you want to do enjoy music, you got to go and be part of a communal events, music with something that was produced. It was not something that was consumed today,

I can put my headphones into my phone go to spot. If I can choose, listen to what everyone I choose to I become god I become the one who choose. I decide what makes up my day so, sure is a complicated one. It has an entirely tool genealogy also has for want of a better service of attacking a logical genealogy as well and call. It seems to me that we worship these things and we don't worship god any more, and that has created a very well problems in our society. Hasn't it. Yes, I mean the it's an interesting question, how her household the idea of god fits into this, and why things, we could say about traditional societies are not speaking particularly about christians societies. Here, though, they provide good example. If you think about sir think about me evil christendom. All you at a single

say about the ottoman empire in the middle ages, or you to think about the Jews, doing that the old testament, all those societies are organised along lines that appeal to a sacred or authority. In other ways, the reason they act and behave the way they do is ground indeed in some transcendence external or authority, two three hundred years, certainly in the west, we we'd lost that we, on the one hand, be privatized, religion area. We both live in countries where you're free to be religious. You not sent to prison for being religious, but we ve. We ve taken that out of the the public square we ve taken out of the kind of dates that that shape the moral courage by which we live, and on one hand, that has brought great benefits, it means people don't get persecuted for their religion or their lack of religion anymore. On the other, it poses interesting questions when

sort consensus on what is good and bad. What is wrong What is right starts to break down, because then the question becomes. How do you justify your moral code? Had you justify your law codes? Well If you have a sacred authority, they can only be just In terms of themselves, and then you move into a kind of pragmatic world where as well, seeing emerging around us in america in the united kingdom in Europe today it tends to be whoever shouts loudest whoever has the most powerful lobby group, it gets to determine what the moral code by which society is to be organized, is and also as well. What it does is because you realize that you are going to die. Your time on this planet is limited, whereas if you are religious, you believe you're going to go to Heaven you're going to never lost everlasting life in Paradise, but the here and now you realize your time is limited, so Why should you enjoy discomfort

why should you do something that you don't want to do? If life is fine then surely it should be as preferable as possible until ends. Yells of good points, and I think again is an intellectual genealogy too, that the german philosopher nature in the nineteenth century is right, dealing with the question of well your life? Is meaningless so is it also worthless and in his answer that interests me is no life, is meaningless, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth living. You should if every second, as if it's going to come back for all eternity, what it when you re means by that is needed, live in the here and now make every second count and, as you point out in your statement, there, that tends towards a position where immediate pleasure becomes king. So, for example, why have children but my children, on the great delight my life. My granddaughter is now the great after my wife, I have to say that she, my isn't this after my wife,

my granddaughter is the most important woman hit by high. At this point, I ve learned if you like in in seeing the future unfolding before me, but if you don't believe the really any future worth working towards, why bother having children they they cost a lot. They keep you up at night. They break your heart. They, convenience you, so I would you are looking at the western dramatically falling birth rates, which are getting so dangerously low in some societies, I think connect. This idea of a live lived for the moment the father a virtue months held for the first time. I really appreciate your pep talk on how berlin showed you're not, but what you are right, of course, and you know one of the other things that his really really troubled me and bothered me and made me question many things that have been happening in the in the angler sphere, particularly in recent days

aids is what has happened to the concept of truth. Now. Obviously, when you have a religious society. Truth is given to you from above. Do you leave and look. I say this in france and neither process are I believers, particularly, but I'm just questioning whether is it possible. Is it natural consequence of the disconnection of religion from society. Then you then a road. The concept of truth, or is that something separate? That's happened for different reasons. sk interesting question, and it goes up opinions divided on that view. If we don't, if you had steven pinker on the show, but Steven pinker and aid yes and he would make a strong case for truth and justice. Case for morality and and and ethics, even though he nice any any sacred order. I think I have to say that if you, if you reject the sacred, if you reject god, I'm not saying that you have to devolve into

kind of pragmatic utilitarianism that tends to rule the day to day, but your presenting itself with a difference in a somewhat difficult challenge, if you like you, you're gonna, have to think long and hard about that. And certainly in a world now again to return to the technology? Should this is made far more difficult by by technology, because now we are all able to two pickens use. The news we receive were able to a buffer ourselves against views that we may disagree with. We were able to cut ourselves off from from alternative viewpoints, and I think that creates this sort of in the public sphere creates this anarchy of competing voices where there is no consensus on truth, everybody does have their own truth and it raises the question of what can we build? A coherent society on at the moment

yet we want could look back to the nineteenth century and- and I have used stir the example of the civil war and this in class. serious disagreement in the united states over where the slavery is moral or immoral. Whether it's acceptable or not, what's interesting about that debate is that both sides appeal to the same authority they're, both typically going back to bible now that doesn't mean they agree on what the bible says, but I think in a situation where you have an agreement on the authority, you have some hope. of persuading the other side or reaching some sort of mutual consensus we lack? We lack that today call back in the sort of the early, nor is there was a sort of new atheists movement. Wasn't there in other the SAM Harrison richard Dawkins people that we both had more greatly in

We get on great thinkers, but it may be a little bit unfair of me to say this, but looking back it, it always struck me as a little bit arrogant. This sort of. We don't need religion, anymore, religion, stupid. We have science we have. logic. We have reason, but the thing is signs logic. Unreason isn't isn't going to comfort. You were when you have grief it not gonna, give you ve soulless wait when you feel naso emptiness, oh you're, out of control, I mean how do we reconcile things. Are you I think you make a good point and, of course, historically that the thing guess who emerge in germany in and to some extent in in Britain, in the aftermath of the french revolution, saw that the french revolution was postponed, be this great exercise were reason we would finally liberates, and yet you you read the council, the french revolution, even by those who are sympathetic to its goals like Mary walston craft and you

we all know that it led to the terrible bloodshed. You move into the tree. this century. A new look at this remark system, and to rebuild society, I know the new atheist worry we're gonna need some is justifiably so and on the bloodshed. Christianity left in its wake, the inquisition, for example, but the more people slaughtered in Stalin's rush, run any given day of the week than in the whole history, I think of the the inquisition in europe, so that a lot of evidence that trying to build on on pure principles of reason doesn't doesnt work that, as you say, human beings are more, we more than reason and that's why, in the aftermath of the french revolution, you get her fingers like predictions schiller in germany, wrestling with the problem of how do we make people moral, and you know we can't do it just by reason, because People are also emotions there. Also affections, We understand that. I think, if you, if you look

the window, and you see somebody being mugged an u have to google. What to do all you have to reflect on. What should I do in this situation would say: europe like a bath, is something wrong with your morality. No, you feel you feel immediate empathy for that person and you move to help them so sure. I think it is We can't do this by reason. We also have to have our emotions properly chewed and I think that's what the new atheists missed, that they were generally, with upright relatively moral people, though they were not advocating genocide or anything like that, but they over they over over reached in what they thought that that getting rid of religion would do a human being strike me as creatures that want a worships

things are better to worship and others. It has to be said: hey constantine, you want better mental health, I'm from russia, we don't have mental health. So how do you deal with mental health? You drink vodka then go out and wrestle bear. If you leave, you feel better. If you die you not real men. What about it his feelings, it's the russian bear, it has no feeling people told always realise it. Physical symptoms, headaches, teeth grinding and even digestive issues can be indicators of stress and, let's not forget about doing squabbling. No sleepy enough sleeping too much on the rating and overeating brutal merge under this is worse than the disease. Therapy is really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus its really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about a tricky issues. Thing you're sure

mean to deal with therapy, has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my idea each day and become better in all areas of my life. Was he telling them how we keys drink vodka feel Burton better help his customers of online therapy, the authors, video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist? So you don't have to see anyone on camera. If you don't want to trigonometry phones, get done at the end of the first month, a bit to help dot com forward, slash trigger, especially if they're, not real men, that b e t, t e r, H, e lp, dot com, slash trigger

and I would also sort of modified arguments slyly about the new atheists, because I think quite a few of the people who, at the head of that movement, were quite capable of being inspired by nature and comforted by the beauty of the galaxy. And all of that is just one that ideal beyond that worldviews apply to everybody, then you find out that not everybody can worship those things or take comfort from them. Nothing that that was also met, perhaps a floor. In their approach to ask us, I reach some richard dawkins writings on the beauty of nature, remarkable quite quite remarkable, exactly think actually all of us are capable of being inspired and comforted by those things, but that does not make for the most cohesive society that that's really the question that will work dressing here? So without all in mind, where, obviously you talk about technology and not something, I've been thinking more about how many

the social movements that we think about, as as being these great steps forward are backwards of sideways or whatever we're actually not social movements at all. They were legit amazing, the technological change that has happened already, the sexual revolution being one of them, for example, We are now living through a period where, I would argue, the pace of change is extraordinary and completely unprecedented. why? How do we cope with what is happening? How do we find a route through this yeah me you you you pointing to something very, very singular thing, I'd I'd sort of come of that too, I would say first of all technologies Health is a shifted the way we think the famous essay by the german philosopher, high dagger, the question of technology, where he makes a point

difference between building a bridge across the river and damaging the river up to generate electric power, and I think the point he's trying to make is this: the bridge respects check. The dam is exerting control over nature, and I think we move. We we very much in the last century into technology being part of our control of nature, rather than working with improving upon respecting nature. So that's one thing that I think plays into the early part of our conversation. They this other godlike. How are we giving ourselves the phenomena your pointing to in terms of the speed is? Is what did the german, a cradle, fairest, heart, rosa calls social acceleration and its. It helps plain. I think why a lot of us feel all at sea

I'm so glad that when we came on air today, my it didn't take us too long sought the microphones out, because technology leaves me behind all the time, so acceleration is is re. The argument that what's happening at the moment is technological developments are happening at a speed. the site, is not able to reorganise itself around them before the next development comes long, forgotten, back in history, to the reformation too, to show how serious this is. You could argue in europe, emissions my area, you couldn't, you could make an argument that the reformation is large part. The result the technological innovation, the printing press rife. Suddenly power shifts to the written word, people start become illiterate people become more political self conscious. Well, the reformation is two hundred and fifty years of bloody conflict in europe

four things settle down, and one could say that one technological innovation created such social to step up the hundred fifty years of of bloody conflict is resolved. Move to the present day. We getting developments like the printing press. It seems every few months. Almost. How is society to adapt accommodate itself be transformed by these when the next one comes quick on its heels. Every time the years. I have to learn a new software package, whatever institution I've worked at and the software package is generally don't seem to improve on the old grade books I like to use with the fans in bed, but I have to learn them and I'm disoriented and- and it throws me out it takes up time it it makes me grumpy, etc, etc. That's just a

we'll example. These things are happening in society at great speed. Those you your point to endeavour The blue leads us, I think disoriented, confused angry resentful a lot. Our political pathologies, are not unconnected to two. What we're observing Can we learn something from the period of the reformation and because I mean one, the things that I've talked about this as well. Of course, the printing press was wasn't just a news. Technology was very similar technology to the ones that we now have in arms of accelerating the spread of information in terms of bringing new people into the political sphere in terms of emphasised, divisions that perhaps lay latent prior to that is awesome the modern humans can learn from that period. Sure I think there are a couple of things wanna. I think we can learn will first or we can. We can learn what to expect, and I think,

there's a sense in which yeah we can expect all kinds of we don't. We can't honestly predict what they will be, but we can expect disruptions transformations to be taking place in the next fifty to one hundred years. That could cause significant social upheaval. I I one of the examples I would point to him. We can explore this later. If you want, would be the concept of the nation state and national. identity I think, is being transformed by the internet. The second thing, in the broader lesson I think we can learn from it is to realize that you're technology but just allows us to do the same things faster. It doesnt just make the same world cleaner and more efficient. What it does is it fundamentally transforms the world.

Knowledge is not the way we would you it's not a tool for addressing the world. It's the very medium through which we experience the world, and I think that's want to hide egg- is points that you you when you change technology, you change the world. You you don't see you remember those days. Perhaps you guys are too young, but I was told you know emails gonna be great because you gonna then the less time on correspondence. Now, because you don't have to write letters, you just at the email in your email response would all be done within fifteen minutes of arriving at work or in the day, and you get on with the day's work. That's not how it's habit. The email correspondence is not written correspondence. Only on a screen, email correspondence has a vast volume

I ought to it that written correspondence never had. So I think that's the second thing we can learn from the reformation. A technology doesn't just tweak part of the world we are living in. It fundamentally changes the whole world that we live in and is now also the programme as well that we have come to start work. Green technology, yes again, we can see that sir, in how we think of where, prior, why Try to think over a non contentious example, but the knowledge

I trying to get back to the friends we've got you guys are breaking with your uncle uncontroversial reputation. This is why our reputation is anything but uncontroversial. I read that I read the tweets online so that I can think of, for example, I'll try to be as sensitive as I cannot, but think of the aids crisis of the nineteen eighties. One of things it's interesting to me when I was doing the research and the self book cause. I read quite a bit on the history of the aids epidemic, which of course was tragic and it it destroy lord young lives and, to an extent we still live with with that, with the wounds and scars about two to the present day. One of these interests me was that in the early days of the aids epidemic, the gay Unity was itself sorted, divided over how to handle it. There were those who were pressing for

what became the dominant? Where dealing with it, not the technological solution. We need greater access to count arms. We need safe sex, we need to develop. antivirals as quickly as possible, etc, etc. There was another group, though within the movement that was pressing for a fundamental change behaviour, close down of the california has is which was sort of hotbeds of of anarchic section behavior and I'm become sort of noble points for transmission of the disease. What's interesting is that that second group, a pretty quickly. Marginalized and then written out of the narrative and that's interesting, because you can you could step back say well in some senses. What you have there is is a battle between innovation and technological vision and the technological vision, one It's the same in the abortion debates. Nature courses is exploded in the last few weeks over here and in the united states that the abortion debate is divided,

those who want to see pregnancy is some that involves a natural obligation between them. And the child and therefore has to be beat be framed. A pregnancy always has to be dealt with in in those kind of moral terms, and those a bright with a view of autonomy. Says no, the until the child reaches the citizen. ages. Bore me. The child is merely part of the woman's body for what you have here- is a technical problem, not a moral problem, because we're only dealing with one person and if what we're dealing with this is merely a function of healthcare, not of interpersonal relations and the kind of moral questions that come in there? So there would be two weeks Apples were the tends to be a default in law. Parts of society towards seeing what would tradition we have been regarded as moral issue.

Now really is as technological wants and the thing is. Is we expect technology to be able to solve all of our problems yet, but he can do it. It's simply calm, because life presents problems are far deeper. complex in that yes in technology, pull out with your wife, If you commit adultery, if you get divorced, if relations break off with your children technology offers no answer to those who are then I would route regard. Those is whether you did you saw nothing to me, those the big questions of life? I teach her course college were part of the focusing, especially on a pistol ology, and I make them that the how we know things- and I make the point the students is here- we can look at a pistol malagigi, it's interesting, but bottom line is, unless you each a for living. Nobody gets out of,

bed in the morning for epistemological we get out of bed because of the things we love the things we hate things. Desire, the things we want to be rid of technology dozen, as you rightly point out, doesnt offer answers to those big questions life. If it we could, blow me say in the realm of medicine. Technology can tell you how to save a life, but it cannot. plain to you why the life is worth. Saving you want, to put it bluntly, is that which made she the covert thing interesting because it was like in the united kingdom, but I know saw a moral philosopher being interviewed about covert prevention and education strategy? It was always the technocrats, the medical technocrats, it's interesting that you bring up covered because I thought that a large part of awe hysterical reaction to it came from the fact that we don't talk about death anymore. We don't we don't. We call

he said the fact that we are more to the time on this planet is limited and has become a taboo subject in all of a sudden. You have a pandemic that comes at all. The sunday reminds us of this and we have a meltdown yeah. The only resource we have is to double down on the technology. We need this scramble to get antivirals vaccine mass above the way, I'm not making any? I I all those things served to good purpose, I'm I'm not sort of saying those are binding, but they are only part of the issue, and I think you're right that again, it goes back to that. But what knowledge he teaches us to think about the wheel technology teaches us to think we're in control every now and then nature bites back and reminds us we're not in control, and now we don't have the resources to handle that other than panic and a doubling down on technological efforts.

That's a really interesting point, because I suppose one of the things that comes with that illusion of control is an inability to deal with the fact that life comes back and bite you as you, says, and so were actually seems to me at least less prepared as individuals and as a society for dealing with setbacks for dealing with shocks. We saw, for example, with the reaction to the invasion of ukraine, so many people were shocked by it, to me as a russian. It was entirely predictable, of course, but I am not even talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that Things like war and disease, which have been a constant through human history and essentially ought to be expected on now treated as these gigantic paradoxes and they must be explained, then no one has the answer, and no one has the solution. People sort of evil even the conversation we'll having about how do

deal with invasion of ukraine. It was fascinating to me how many people thought that what we need to do is somehow assassinate vladimir Putin, as if, like turning off one human being solves the problem of a huge country which has a movement within which is intent on expansion and blah blah blah blah blah. But we go his apiece technology we switch. This person often done again, that goes back to something you you mentioned earlier that the right at the start, the history is important. Because the way we behave is also shape by the stories we tell about ourselves. The way we think of ourselves and that you are going to russia, ukraine, yeah one can try to explain that conflict in terms of a single minded evil megalomaniac. But I think you here and I know that that that's not adequate one's gonna think about the whole concept of holy russia, one's gonna, think about the relationship between the two nations will start to think about the the aftermath of the of the night

Seventeen revolution all these things that play into how individual people, the nations think about themselves that That shows once again that the technocratic solution, this is not the answer. I think it's why, for example, breaks it or even the should have donald trump over here was met with such incomprehension by what I would regard as a sort of technocratic class, the progressives they I couldn't see any reason on god's good earth why brexit might be seen as a good thing or why Donald trump might be seen as preferable to Hillary Clinton. It was very interesting to me that you know you look at the cities in the united states, the east coast and the west coast, where all of the technocrats live. They cannot understand that big mass in the middle, whether rural people, let the people have strong eyes to the soil.

strong ties to their national and local narratives. None of that can be technological, explained away. I was surprised or dismissed and it's very, very powerful in shaping human behavior. The great point call because, when you think of the lord of the people, you know David Goodhart spoke about this, who voted not for voted remain no those people voted for retention. They tend to be masters of technology, which means they can effectively take their laptop and work anywhere. Therefore, they don't have that deep connection, therefore there, nor is bound to their community yeah. I think that's absolutely correct you. You might say that globalization has favoured the corporate technocratic class and its left the rural agrarian agricultural class behind and it's also lead to this. This mutual incomprehension between between the two

yeah. I think it's a very, very important point and it's something that it breaking down the traditional division between right and left. I was interesting to me and twenty Sixteen, when Bernie Sanders the very left wing presidential candidate pull out of the the race, a significant chunk of his support is transferred to trump, and that was interesting because there was a kind of p list was native strand to Bernie sanders that, if you just look at it, through the lens of capital, This was the socialists, right versus old left you you simply don't understand? What's going on technology is remaking the class system for want of a better to. I call, and we talked a little bit about- relate jan and frances, sort of asked you a question which may mean the people assume that he is religious which is not but

What has been the role of the church and all of this, because I dont know what did the case in the americas very different of course, but here in the uk the church is becoming a smaller and smaller parties, lives its having less and less of an impact, it's less and less relevant. You know. The church sort have to take some responsibility for abandoning the flock in this great time of need good cheese is reaping to some extent the the harvest of what it sewn, of course in in britain and on and on the continent. It goes back to the first year you go back to the first world war, the connivance of the church in him walk. I did a special project on the first world war and in high school, a grammar school, and I couldn't really tell you what it's parrots. Ah, I I think the church was worked hand in glove with the establishments and wet when the old establishment sort of

There are always exposed as corrupt the church kind of fell with it, so that the situation is different in america, because the still, even now, with church the churches declining rapidly and influence, but the still significantly higher proportion, the americans would it I dont via religious, typically christian and proper. Students of one sort or another than you'd find it in britain. I think the churches I might say in Britain the church has reaped the has reaped the the harvest of having identified itself too closely with dubious earth, pounded worldly policies, rather than focusing on what it wanted, what it should do, and that is the worst.

We both of god that will take a long time to unpack, but I think you're onto something that the church is not simply the victim in this, the churches to is, to a significant extent, the victim of itself, we hope you are enjoying this incredible interview. Did you know that you can ask? Guess your questions? That's right when you join our local community Not only will you know who were about to interview, you have the opportunity to ask them your question. You have the chance to ask Jordan petersen the co founder of extinction. Rebellion nigel ferrars, douglas murray, Andrew Doyle, Jeff Norka, Simon Evans, Larry elder David, but deal Andrew Sullivan Megan kelly Julia heart. brewer lord Nigel lawson brat Weinstein's in najaf, allowing Emma doktor David, not jimmy door. Gad, sad blair, white, melissa, Chen trevor phillips. I am hersey, led glenn lowry, bridger, fantasy Jim

cards, car, benjamin and so many more plus were bound to interview some of the previous case in the world. We call name them just yet, but trust me. They huge makes for a clear speaking, not just because their american locals gives you access to a great community of like minded people well, you can share means and make new and problematic friends. You also get early access to live, shows and we're about to release details of our talk. So you want to know about that is well on the high tease you get monthly supported, calls and the opportunity to have a meal or coal with us click. The link below goads, trigonometry, taunt, locals, don't come and join the community. That's trigonometry! Dont locals dot com will see that, and we see now and I wanted to get your sword summit as well, because you we're seeing increasingly religious figure

whether that the bishop of canterbury or other senior religious figures in this country weighing on issues of policy. The fourth environmentalism or culture or been expressing opinions about quite contentious topics that you don't have anything to do with the primary function of the church, which is to connect to facilitate the connection between human beings and the supreme being, if you like, your religious person, which I'm not, but I'm still curious about this, because it seems to me a phenomenon that is reflective. Of a general feeling that every institution now has to be expressly political The church is probably the one that I would have expected resisted that the longest. What do you make of that? It's interesting. I think that, to some extent that comes from the church even and I think we weak your- this- would apply the archbishop

cancer brain away that it may not apply to your local baptist church minister, the archbishop of canterbury still presumably thinks that he's a significant public figure and therefore should opine on these issues The problem is, of course, when you, when you, when you pine on issues that I would regard people of good faith, and I mean faith area it not in not in the religious sense, but in in the chances of well and sincerity where european on issues where people of good faith can legitimately disagree, because they read the evidence differently. We'll see the solution differently. When a religious leader I pines on that, you shift The issue into the realm of sort of one of the better term sin and transgression. Essentially saying anybody who disagrees with me is actually committing themselves to send an evil at this point, and I think that's real problematic move for for church leaders to make on a whole host of issue. So I think this

yeah the church, when the church, opined in public on issues of public policy, its its opinion should be Infrequent short and lacking in policy details, I would say: if it's to to remain helpful, I I I do think that the you know what is the christian position on the basic rate of income tax in twenty twenty to do social programs to help the poor or hinder the poor? These are questions that I think people can legitimately disagree over peep. Well, well, meaning thoughtful people can disagree over. It doesn't help when church leaders

I have to wade in and make these things in a one down from the the the teaching on the resurrection or something in importance called that isn't the problem and with technology. That technology has now turned us all of us into political figures. Everybody is now political he's, political, I'm, political, all, producers, political, you go to starbucks. You pick up a rainbow cup. My coffee is now political. Isn't any surprise at the church is now waded into politics. No, I don't think it's a surprise. I think it's about move. I don't think it's a surprise and I think you're putting their again to a couple of other things that have happened in our society want technologies. We abolished private space, it used to be that the ep. Unions? I hold about issues a b and c well, my employer.

Necessarily even know about them, unless I care to express them to him now, of course, you find positions where you can be a postman, an you posted something on twitter. That is, nothing to do with your efficiency in sorting and delivering mail and everything to do with the contemporary It is of the modern world and you could find yourself facing disciplinary action at work, because this new private space, in order to express those things, I said he bought the other side of it is I I view corporate weakness very, very cynically and yeah. I yeah. I have a starbucks really concerned about these thing. now. I think starbucks is concerned about marketing itself in accordance with. The the means, the pathologies, the trends that respond to certain kinds of marketing. At the moment, I am, I keep it. I was told last year that m I I got a notice of my keep it up

say you know we we're we're, not racist or something it was kind of yeah. I'm delighted to know that, but I'm a little more concerned that the yell you keep fit that works efficiently. You know I kind of assume they probably weren't racist. I wasn't sure why they felt the need to tell me about that kind of performance, a virtue now I think it's a marketing scam by a by a lot of the big corporate it's there and you can see that by the way, whatever the flavor of the month is next month, they'll be jumping on that bandwagon as if they've always been committed to it, but it is again a form of religion. Isn't it because if you go against that, you know you can say it's marketing and I agree with you, but it's martin there's something else going on, because if you dare question that Even if you a gay man who questions pride month, yeah, I mean you're likely to lose your job you're likely to be ostracised you're likely to be treated as a heretic.

We have our own equivalent to the inquisition today, only it's much much more. reaching, I think, are often much more ruthless and in the way it operates your absolutely right and one of the interesting things for me. Over the last year two has been the fact that here gay white males- I think you know only one step above white straight males in the in the sort of political hierarchy its Fascinating have yesterday's poster child marginalized victim. it is, is moving rapidly into the realm of being oppressor. I think you ve had Andrew Sullivan on this programme. Great example: twelve years ago, he was a cutting edge advocate for gay marriage. Now he's a heretic because he doesn't feel sexually attracted towards we. men who transition to being met? That puts him beyond the pale? What what a time to be living in. I wanna see

we can find some positive some remedies at least to to the moment, wherein, if if what we are facing is a period like the reformation, but perhaps accelerated even more so we ve talked about the fact that we ought to expect rapid changes and and difficulties in the time to come under the technology will change how we view the world you, someone who has children and grandchildren now as is as a new father myself, I'm off unthinking alone? I know a lot of people are thinking about this. How we raise children in this environment. How do we protect our own minds from many of the things that are happening because, let's be honest, we all want to profit and benefit and whatever from the technology, this show wouldn't be possible. If the of the new technology didn't exist, so we want to take advantage of it, but we also want to protect ourselves and mitigate some of the negative consequences. How does one charter path through all of this in a way that

allows you to remain saying that it's a very good question under, I think, a numerous aspects to any any answer. This can be remotely I think that's all you're, absolutely right! Technology is not an unmitigated evil. it's great to live with how you still, I hope this never happens, but if you're you're new book child suddenly develops illness the job There is a much greater chance of surviving now than than two hundred years ago, you wander around a graveyard and look at the number of graves of new born and small children that are there from from really I just about its great that you look at a time when you you he's, got a fifty fifty chance now. Are you charge reaching twelve, It's old, but seriously technology sites where you going. I think being aware that technology is not an unmitigated. Good is good as well.

it will allow you to your, I use the word. If the police advisedly hit, what are you to police your child's use of technology? I I advise parents is: they do not buy your child a smartphone. but by the rome when they leave home, but don't I'm a smartphone because then the most it essential people in your child's life again going to be the nutcases right, laughed and all points in between operating on tik, tok and youtube and places like that. You are you, you don't want to allow any anybody direct access into, charles live to shape the way they think so beware of beware of the problem, then I think I'm encouragement, some of the students I teach undergraduate soon, that each on this learn to appreciate true friendship and true community, one of the lines I use at the beginning. My humanities course colleges here. What, if The answer to the meaning of life is not My idea

with its sitting on your deck of an evening, sharing good conversation in a glass of wine with a group of good friends. What, if that's part of the meaning of life, one of the things that I think we really lost it is the notion of friendship. It's one of the reasons I think so I don't know what it's like in the united kingdom, but the united states Large number of young teenage girls are ideal, define as bisexual lesbian now at an age when I wouldn't even being aware particularly of of sexuality, and I asked, a teacher recently. What what do you think you're, the eight out of ten girls in your class, identifies lesson at the age of twelve said because we don't teach them a friendship is anymore. These kids fails strong feelings for other kids and we have given them nothing other than sexual categories

for them to understand those feelings in that relationship. So I would say, teacher kids, what friendship is teach them? the value of the friends who there are really no on facebook or whatever, but the friends in the local neighbourhood. I really believe that one of the great opportunities that this current moment is for those who get what's going on, we can look at rebuilding community in friendship, refocusing ourselves on the people that we rub shoulders with day by day. I think hospitality, cultivating hospitality and friendship is a great opportunity, great opportunity, that lies before us. At this point, much to lament and worry about in the situation. We find ourselves, but, let's think about, for example, More marginalization has historically done two groups. Jews in the middle ages. Now the quakers in nineteenth century they became

strong communities. The marginalization was not simply for them an opportunity to sit around. I feel sorry for themselves. It became an opportunity for building real friendships. Real community bonds So I think, even though the odds are rarely stacked against that kind of thing, one of the great and beautiful things that we can do at this point is model in a small way in the street we live in the family is that we have true community have dinner at the dinner table for five times. Are we not in front of the television invite people over to your hand, Have drinks on your deck and fine conversation show people what real friendship and rural communities. that's really really path became so because it here's the thing, and this is why I feel so worried about this technology. Call people talk about online communities. Isn't it there's no income immunity is not a community is not a community, It's an illusion. You know it

We ve been sold. This idea of connection that's talking to someone on facebook is not a connection. A connection is when you sit down with someone literally in front of you. Is someone people use this that this termed I hate to during the pandemic? We met on zoom them. Fucking me on zoom never mate, sorry to find your strength and I'm glad to be a therapist for you, guys, yeah I'll, send you my bill later, but yeah. No, I think you're right one of the things I think the pandemic towards a lot of people is bodily contacts, quite important. You may that's on zoom, but you'd rather have met in person and each one of us heartbreaking pictures of the whole pandemic was a picture that the funeral that little muslim boy, the maid made the headlines over here. I think he died from cove it isolated an award his power

This will allow the visiting and then is buried in the funeral, those just a tiny little coffin, the emma think in a coffin bear his parents could. embarrassed fewer, and I defy any body to think about that situation and think that was right and appropriate. No, it wasn't no child the child should die, let alone die alone without the piece of their mother telling them they loved them without holding their hand. That was heartbreaking. I think when we, when we are confronted with things like that, we less wow. This is dehumanizing. Why, wise did humanizing, because we lack body contact unseen. My mom physical evil We have yours, I'm coming back to the uk and a couple of weeks. I call my mom every couple of weeks and it's great to hear her voice, but nothing will be

sitting in the front row and haven't a cup of tea with her, because bodily presence is important. I think you're getting to another thing that yeah the disan body in nature of technology is also at issue and I think part of technology they I agree with you entirely. I think, is a doctor. The comments you have made towards the end there absolutely perfect in terms of having some sort of vision or how to navigate these time. Call. We always end our interviews with one question which are Here, you are uniquely placed to answer well, which is what is the one thing that we are not talking about as a society that we really should be? I think, The one thing is: what is all is doing to children. What is all this stuff doing to children? that to me has a lie at the heart of its one. Thing for us

to do whatever they want to do. But I think we have a responsibility to our children and our grandchildren. You may not be a believer. Okay, we may not share the same moral vision for things. It's ok, but I think everybody should be an agreement that Our responsibility is ultimately not to ourselves. It is to our children and it's that I think that needs to inform the debates about everything from from adoption to the environment and I'm not pre empting. our conclusions on those things should be, but I'm thinking I don't hear children referred to is anything but policy. Footballs or collateral damage at this particular point in our public discourse. I think we need to. We need, as adults, to realize

our responsibility, lies to our children and that needs to be at the heart of the ethical and moral debates that are taking place in society a fantastic way. I've got a couple of questions for you from a local supporters which only they will see in a second, but for now the book is on the rise and crimes of the man himself, I recommend people get it. Where else should people find your work online? Call. Generally, I write. I write for a magazine called first things. Every two weeks I have a column, the first things, dot com and that's a joke. Resources, conservative and religious, but not distinctively christian side through a jewish It is as well the occasional muslim writer actually so first things, not tom would be too were where you could find most of my my my online work fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being with us and thank you for watching and listening will say very soon when other britain episode like this one. Or russia. They always got seven p m. You take time.

for those of you who do not your trigonometry only go. It's also available as a podcast, take care and ceased guys absent religion which the environment were operating. Now, how does one cultivate restraint and oneself

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