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the the hello, everyone and welcomed episode. Two hundred and fifty of the true crime, all the time podcast mike the centre with me, as always, is my partner true crime mike gibson Gibby. How are you doing good man? How about you I'm doing great? I just can't get over two hundred and fifty well. I have no problem getting over two hundred and fifty. If I eat more food I mean two hundred fifty episode. Ok, you know you and I have really been trying to

good job of shortening the intro. We have to get to the story quicker this one might be a little longer, because I want to ruminate a little bed over two hundred and fifty episode. It's alive. I thought you know we're also getting ready in a couple of months to come up on our five year anniversary our so you think about that right. Two hundred and fifty episodes, that's just on true crime The tired add in unsolved add in what I do with more fun criminology, it's a ton of absent in five years. It seems like its flown by good, thank goodness you and I haven't so much fun. Yes, I think it's a bigger accomplishment. I am not trying to pat ourselves on the back, but I'll pack on the back of your part of it, and I am proud of what we ve done. Apache on your back to know, don't touch me so that I have that phobia of people touching it.

Restraining order, an a restraining order on europe which are violating when every time we record. But you know we are proud of We hope other people like it and I think we ve been blast too. Been over the years able to amass the listener ship em you and I are very grateful. We are to get the best listeners ever yes and We want a pat everyone on the bar due for that as well. You ve got some patron shouts. Let's do those. We had gretchen schulz, a gretchen Akashi about who ass ya, Erika Walter jumped out, our highest level was gone on, Erika, LISA, gray, eva Denise, god degree jumped out or high slope. The new teresa aztlan, eight risa re re was gone, Sarah Rodriguez jumped out or high level acer cassidy. Why appreciate that capacity? Joseph tat, Mina jumped out or high Islam was uptown mina leah smith.

Melissa morrison jumped out or high islam aim alyssa a wall raven, while written Edith. Why eighth Becky thrift was up act, flores homestead jumped out, our highest level was going on for years, and last but not least, the lowest galloway also jumped out at our highest level, operate at lois, and then, if we go back into the ball gibbs this week, we selected lil winchester of thank you little. So we appreciate the new support. The can he needs support. We had some great pay. Pal donations as well. Angelique wanted to wish her hubby carson de krona happy birthday, happy birthday. Thank you. Julie, tell ya milliner colombia. Lauren porter Lauren sue louis. So we appreciate all that, thanks to you,

did you and I just got done doing our weekly patreon episode and we spent the bulk of it talking about nine eleven. We did in the fact that twenty years has gone by since the attacks so you know if you're on patron make sure you check it out. If you're, not as a great time to sign up? We put something out every week we put some stuff out every man, full blown episodes reiterate hook, gibbey up to a lie. Detector test it's coming up. In a few weeks, you can tell from my ex voice, I'm so excited about it's on order, I'm waiting for it so gives I did what let everyone no bad You and I have switched companies for true all the time and solve now. Switching common there's a lot involved with it. I won't get into it. We thought and maybe we'd, be ready to put out the episode the sunday it doesn't look like were

owing to be so I'm putting it out on t tee cac, lotta people listen to both to help explain, why there's no unsolved episode and why we didn't say that on the last unsolved depths owed its really because we thought we would be ready to go and we're does not make sense I gibbs? Are you re to get into this episode of true from all the time man? I am ready for episode to fifty we wanted to pick up. Ok, some more well known killer, and this is some one who we have received. Countless requests to cover really going all the way back to when we started the show pretty big name. Yeah we're talking about donald pee, wee gaskins, a serial killer from florence south carolina. Now, if you look at all of his confessions,

and if they are true, he murdered, maybe as many as a hundred people throughout his lifetime. That's a pretty big number That is a huge number and they would put him and I hate to say the word elite category, because it's not a good thing. It would put him up and I very notorious tear, maybe that's a better way to say It- met enow gibbs was a guy who used his nickname, pee wee and on assuming stature to his advantage. Really people underestimate him his entire life, which allowed him to. It his true nature, which one that he was a sadistic killer, pee, wee, kidnap, tortured, raped, possibly cannibalized and murdered as victims, before dumping, their bodies in snake and alligator infested, swamps,

I've done a number of cases where killers have, The decision to dispose of ease say in a bar. Of water or swamp that was known to be invested by alligators. Ok, it's gruesome when you think about What those alligators would do to a human body. It also makes the end negation into those murders, very difficult officer. In early childhood. Pee wee definitely showed signs of anti social behaviour and, as he got older he has said he fell, urges you. These were urges that he couldn't resist he has described them as a need for blood. Ok sounds like a frog, demon to me and will obviously get into it. Did you touch your problem? Did on the desk, as I there's the frog demon

they're? So so in this part, one of two, the pee wee gascons episodes talk about his childhood, his life of crime before he became a killer, his first murder and what pee Wee calls his coastal that's how messed up this guy is gibbs. He has named certain segments, of his murderous life. He's got categories yeah and I just think it says something about him, but we'll get into it. All so gives the state news. Her out of colombia south carolina. They interviewed a man who had served a prison stand with gascons. Now Obviously this was after pee. Wee was apprehended for the final time, but they quote This man is saying if you put pee wee out in the desert, with a frog any cactus within a couple of weeks.

He'd know something that the other needed and he'd get it for them truly if he had been a legitimate businessmen. He'd have been a genius. He also have the kind of personality that could sell eskimos snowballs if they were sitting on, snowballs, but in conversations about certain things things he'd been hurt by, you could feel the anger and then coming out of him, evidently the venom found a direction when he got to the point of taking people's lives without blinking, and so I thought this was very it's kind of how I wanted to start this episode even though timeline wise, this happens way later, but I think it gives you a lot. Of insight into donald pee, wee guy, because this is a man who,

shared cell with have spent a lot of time with them, probably knew him pretty well and was able to break him down getting the used car sales men, vibe the very manipulative type of person vibe. Having conniving you know how many times do we talk about killers really. Is firstly, serial killers, them or not what you would consider to be books, mark right, there's exceptions, but the obviously and indifferent people bathing. By and large. These are not people who were going to be adjunct. Professors at harvard at any point in their lives, but the things that they did. What they learned that heeded them in and doing these really bad things that they did. It made

seem as though they were smart. They were crafty, they were very, clever again and rain is that most people don't realize yeah? I mean we know we ve all known somebody who was greenly manipulated yes and sometimes a little kids pit, one parent against the other in, but it sounds like from what this guy said about pee wee. He was able to break people down figure out either their weakness was or what they really want aid in play off of that and then provide something to them. The kind of then made them either letter our down or feel obligated to miss a very valuable tool to have you're absolutely right, and then you have to make to this, Am I using this tool for good or am I using it for evil and for

well, yeah. I think a lot of people make that decision with a number of things. Yes, so you know where you are obviously we're going to talk about pee wees childhood. The problem I found, with really his biography. Is that it's full of inconsistency is no doubt, there's a stark difference between what he claims happen to him, and what some researchers, family, members and other witnesses have said over the years. So I think, what's best to do gibbs is to present all the details we have and some of the different accounts of die holds childhood university of south carolina. Researchers wrote an article on his life because of the lack of research that was out there on gas

since they compare multiple biographical sources: ain't they created a chart comparing different facts about his life in the nineteen nineties. Pee wee, co, authored a book titled final true and it contains some of the only published by rascal information about that wasn't while researchers started, writing books and articles after he died. Wilton Earl, co. Author of final truth pose the biography as the full truth, but here's rob. Pee wee gascons was a notorious liar as many serial killers are theirs down very when you're a master manipulator. Well, what's a big component of that line, sure in in many cases and are so good at it because they believe Why is at a certain point? I think they do grow too to believe Is that what they're telling is the

truth or maybe they know it's not to truth, but so sincere because they've done it time and time again, and they just know how to pull that off caroline. Stories reported that donald was also allegedly paid for this book and one point, told his family: hey, they wanted a juicy book, so I'm gonna give them a juicy book there you you know. If that's true, then that point, he probably tal some stories, our at least embellished quite a bit. I think the point is that it's hard No, as it is in many cases where and really the majority of what you have comes from the serial killer himself or herself how much evidence through how much of it is designed to get some sympathy. Sometimes you just don't know how I can tell you what to do now:

Pee wee gascons was a rapist, possibly a cannibal. He was deafening. Assyria. Pillar who murdered at least eight people. Those are confirmed, but like said he confessed to as many as a hundred murders. Towards a number really said, probably higher than eight some my guess would be somewhere between eight and one hundred. Now, that's a pretty big chasm. Sure either way he's a notorious killer. Yes, even it at eight, but let's say it was closer to a hundred again. That is putting him in a cab, the gory, where very few serial killers have ever His murders involved. Extreme violence and sexual sadism gives he killed malts children and even a baby. I think with

lot of serial killer cases. People have asked a number of questions right. Who was donald gascons? How did he go What in what life choices led him to become a serial killer in its often what we're trying to figure out and I think what a lot of people listening or try to figure out as they go through these stories? With this dialogue, Asking was born on march thirty. First, nineteen thirty three in prospect, south carolina. His real name was actually junior parrot. Born to a young unwed mother, uli parrot, who is twenty six years old. And Donald, was born dial was under way and under developed from birth, which earned him the nickname, p, weak and really probably gives I'll be calling him man more than I will don. He was

he's by his mother and his grandparents, louis and fanny parent. They were farmers who grew up in prospect Donald had five siblings and a pretty large extended family his siblings, have tried pretty hard to keep their names out the media- and I don't see it reason why we would need to really. Name them were or dragged their names through the mud mean, I don't think you'd want your name out there anyway. Now No, I I can't imagine what it's like for the sibling of a notorious serial killer, Gas is a lot of them. Maybe look at changing their names because who wants to be associated with the person like this? Even if it your brother, your sister, whoever it is, it's gotta be really tough on the entire family. Once all the nasty details come out exactly

Donald later said. He had no problems with the fifteen members this family they got along well, but other people have said things that bring the truth of this statement into question prospect as a small coastal farm, community near the larger city of florence, south carolina don, his family on their own plot of land, but they also worked on a bigger farm to make more money, and I think that was pretty com, Now I think tat happen gibbs with some of my family in Kentucky, maybe some of your these. Well, I don't know for sure. No doubt his family was poor and His mother did occasionally turn to sex work as a way to make money. So I I think right here is where accounts of donalds childhood start today, he has claimed that his mother beat him and said

Lee humiliated him throughout his childhood he's gone as far gibbs is say that his mother sold him to some. Her boyfriend's, some of her clients for sexual abuse purposes. He was sexually abused by these men right now. He's also said that, from his perspective as a child, he didn't think he was being used but did acknowledge that his step fathers neglected and beat him if this is true, this is very disturbing and brutal. It is. Is it going to make why he later does okay now, do you have to look at this and say: did it play a part yeah. I think you have to look at all the aspects of his childhood. Again I gotta know, which ones are true or to what extent everything is true

but if you're telling me that your own mother so you, two men who sexually abused, used in sexually assaulted, you ok, that's wrong and no doubt about certainly set the stage for what's to come later in life. Donald daughter surely participate in a document produced by the real crime you to channel. She gave him for me. About her fathers early life. She told their producers. Most of my family was good christian people. The parrot family were considered decent church going and hard work. In people, and I think you see this in many cases right. The killer says this. Other family members come out and say, though it didn't happen. That way, now didn't in that way in these people didn't see, it could have or does a killer embellish what happen too,

themselves during childhood, maybe to garner some sympathy again. This is where we don't know, but we have to give all the different details. The one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that pee wee was a badly behaved chop his mother told pleased water. Surely that he was all we're he's doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing so is uncles and grandparents always had a beat him, because he wouldn't listen and that's what they did back then right. If you don't listen to me, I'm going to have to get that twitch switch or that switch nor the twitches, but let's go with switch cause. That's what I got hit were exactly, but you you're right. That was Hey I'm telling you what to do or what not to do, and then I'm going to give you to the count of three you can either comply or you can.

Beat and a lot of cases? That's how people did parent back then those parents back then, would understand what time out means no They're, probably wasn't a lot of time out in this house all now. The one thing that did reed was that his mother couldn't ever hit him. She couldn't do Donald did confirm over the years. That is aunt and uncle's, hit him with switches if he made them angry. It's also been reported that Donald was spoiled as a child and he got whatever he wanted, because his family thought he was a cute little kid they just had a very hard time saying no to ok. I can relate to that. I try to be a good pair by I also worry that sometimes I crossed the line into spoiling now. Might my kids, you re kids. I think you would back that up. Do they get sward from time to time here,

is any doubt about that see. I thought you were going to go a little bit different with that story, that you are going to talk about how he you were spoiled my because I was an only child exactly anywhere spoiled. I was spoiled and I'll tell you why so as an only child from a family of divorce. I think I was spoiled as I had two different sides, kind of say buying, because my my mandate, along really well right by it was two groups so to christmases multiple sets of grand insurance so yeah. In a way. I do think I was I was spoiled. Well I mean that's, don't let's not forget you were a charming kid. Yeah again, like pee wee is good. Looking cute kid charming, manipulative yup. All that sums you up, but you know in seriousness

vague you probably back then at an early age, is where p we learned to use this to his advantage and really how to manipulate or play on others yet mean once you figure out how it works and how good it works. Why wouldn't you want to continue it and reap the benefits of doing what he was doing? Well, I think you're you're making the point exactly once you find out that you can get what you want by doing things this way and here's the Mccain makes it. I have to go through to make it happen. Ok, why we do not want to try to get what whatever it is. You want now kids, try to manipulate your parents day in day out, but most parents. Hey. I know you're trying to manipulate me cut it out. You can have this toy you not getting

toy every time we go to a store or whatever it is always a hate. You can't manipulate manipulator know you where the kid lane in the hour, kmart bang in his face, on the ground, face down and get my feet while the blue I was going off exactly so master manipulate ray that's what he became. I don't know at what point, but obviously we know he started that at an early age now will say those people who knew him as a child have come out and said gibbs that his claims of abuse or not sure, and have also said. The real problem is he was never discipline and never had any boundaries. Git boundaries. Yeah. Well, we ve seen what happens when you don't. I we ve seen in Some of the stories that we ve profile what happens to kids way and there is no discipline, no boundaries. That's not good! Obviously, abuses, not good

but in the somewhere in the middle right, that is good parenting sources I agree that donald head, multiple step bothers throughout his childhood. Donald, never knew his real father, but he leave his father was a wealthy and esteemed farmer, and store owner named Henry gascons. Henry was Mary ann children, but it's not know if he was really donald biological father. But this is the exact reason why Donald changed his name from paris to gascon there's an adult. Sophie were henry gascons. Your probably wondering why this p wheeze taking your last name, go especially if you're, not his dan yeah? You definitely be wondering why he's doing that obviously later on. When everything comes out about him, you, like that's horrible

that my name is now associated with this vicious killer If the guy wasn't his dad at all donald star the show signs of anti social behaviour in kindergarten and us early ets early, but it happens you he was bullied in school. He was often ethically assaulted by the bigger and older children. They talk did him. They bullied him. They called him. Peewee yachtsman said that he got in a fight almost every day, but I think the others thing that that happened beginning around that same age, kindergarten age was that he started torturing animals. Well, to the point that iccat, the attention of his teachers, which they made several reports about yeah, we we ve toward a lot of stories, rough story about the so the animals by some of these killers. You don old, was said to be found.

And of pulling the legs off offer frogs our red one report gives where he would pull one off just see how he frog would jump around without without that leg that sick, that's twisted. In cardiff, we had this is at a very, very young age. He killed baby birds. He would snap their heads off So again, this is some really you know six stuff. It's also a very bad sign. Now I will say this I have received a number of emails from some listeners who said they have a compulsion as what they called it to torture, animals when they were there not proud of it. Do not happy about it. By

you're out of it and they went on to love. Animals led a very productive lie. So I think it's interesting when, when we get that type of feedback from people who are willing to be so open and honest because torturing of animals is never good by any one. Is it a sign of bad things to calm? It can be there's no doubt about. Does it mean that your son, in her daughter, whoever's going to turn out to be a killer. No, it doesn't mean that it's not a good sign, though, or I gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about grow. Did you know seven, percent of people say they want to use natural products, but only about two percent. Why is because what they sell to store is from the biggest companies, not

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my mother in law, using it she was a maze how much money she is saving with good our acts. So start saving up to eighty percent on your prescriptions today go to good our ex dot com last t cat? That is good. Our acts, dotcom, slash, t cat good, our ex dot com, slash teak, good! Our x is not insurance but can be used instead of insurance in two thousand twenty good. Users received an average savings of over seventy percent of retail prices. Pee wee life of crime started when he was just a paddle eleven years old before he her committed, a murder. His criminal record consent the daughter of solid and battery accessory after the fact murder interstate transportation of motor vehicle, rape, carnal knowledge of a child and multiple scape attempts so yeah He headed down that bad path. Very early on any

never got off of it re never. And round. He never change direction. He just of wind down that path: a dropped out of school at the age of a web, got a job at a local garage. It was at tat garage there. Joined up with two other young criminals, danny and march. They both had also dropped out of school early. The group called themselves the trouble tree. It ok I'll know, that's great advertising. Where your gang, your kind of tipping your hand there that hey look at us cause whereby raged in trouble now are we didn't do anything wrong officer? Not this trouble trio gang. The trio spent the next couple of years back. The rising homes and businesses and gives a sexually assaulted other boys and when they did sexually assault boys, they try

those boy with more violence. If they told the police, they also stole cars. So could drive around in higher sex workers, a lot that's going on at a pretty young age, yeah mean they're still in cars and to maintaining victims firing sex workers at like eleven twelve thirteen years old. The trouble trio broke up after the gang raped one of the members younger sisters and there's no doubt that Donald had a big hand in it, yeah. He was only thirteen years old when he can this act of extreme sexual violence, so basically what been? Was they lord this little world to their hide out and they attacked her the girls order? Parents what happened, and you know all the boys parents beat them and tell them black in things that most people don't do today right, we don't

our children until they bleed, but back then that type of corporal punishment was, I think, fairly common belts switches paddles at school. You know I have talked about that and probably almost expected in it and since like this well, I mean: let's look at the grab. The crime damien moorish laughed florence caroline after this incident, but donald state and he continued committing crimes. Mozilla in may or june of nineteen. Forty six, when pee wee was Thirteen years old, he attempted to murder a girl from school. There are different, ports her? She may have been one of his cousins, but this is unconfirmed but she was not was one of his cousins that that much, I noticed her make. We saw two final: that's ever banker now. I think the jury is out on that. Ok, but what happened? Was he broke into her home, but she caught him in the act.

As he was loading up items that he was stealing from the house, Donald may have tried to distract her by making some sort of sexual advance. Remember he's thirteen years old she resisted. He pushed her to the ground. And when she got up she attempted to hit him with an ax, but he was able to take it from her. And ass. He fled the scene He hid her in the head and arm with the axe and then threw her into a ditch. Well, pee wee thought she was dead, but she wasn't, but I think it shows you how vicious this attack what's right, you're striking A little girl repeatedly with the max you leave her in a ditch, you'd think she's dead. That's a pretty brutal attack for anybody, let alone a thirteen year old kid, but I mentioned it. She lived now diving the only reason that

he survived was because, when she landed in this ditch there was a small, of water trickling through it. She drank the water, and she was able to survive until someone finally found her know how long it took her confine that information, but she was able to identify peewee after she recovered. He was arrested and convicted saw with a deadly weapon and intend to kill again thirteen years old. I cannot stress that another one that that really hit me kind of hard gibbs was that allegedly when pee wee was in court, stand in front of the judge that was the this time he ever heard. Real name gone. Oh no, he told story or somebody else has, as why said, allegedly, but apparently

Before this he only knew himself as junior or pee wee pair, where he's probably standing in court, on whose Donald I thought I was up next I just found that very interesting people, received the maximum sense for his cry and the court order him to live at the south carolina industrial school for boys until he was twenty one years old, so what he did was awful, but again he was only thirteen years all right. We ve seen some kids that young who have killed, get some really long sentences. Now he was sent to base reform school for a maximum of eight years, but this reforms, who was really more like a prison right? You the boys there had to do a lot of

farm work of all kinds of different types of hard labor. I know in your head, you're thinking cool hand luke. I know you are absolutely am now from I understanding the reform school and end staff there they weren't physically abusive what did was they made all the boys? You do this hard labour as punishment for their crimes, but doesn't mean that there was not abuse that went on because pee wee claimed that on his second night at the industry school, he was gang rape by twenty boy. If that's true that is so brutal says, I maybe I was an initiation yeah again any you really have to look added and wonder how much of his claims are true, we know cyril there's lie. We know they brag. We know they manipulate. The truth doesn't mean it didn't happen, though.

You know. He said that he basically had to perform sexual acts in exchange for protection from a kid who he called the boss boy. So this was probably An older kid, a bigger kid who was kind of the leader of the pact. This boy apparently picked pee wee as his sweetheart, which essentially meant that he was forced to do whatever this kid won him to do We claim that this kid traded him as a sexual object forces rats and other things around the school and cool, to him. The abuse lasted for five years. So again that that's bird, like you said, that's not right. That should have never happened, now. He never should have done what he did know he should either and while he's in there, he does the same thing. He starts to abuse and sexually saw other kids younger than

What now he claimed that he had to do the right in order to be respected by the other boys, but that's kind of hard to wrap your If your suffering so much abuse, know. What is doing to you? How can you turn around and perpetrate dan on other kit It seems like it would be hard to do now, he's all claim that, in order to get respect, he attacked a larger with a hammer him in the knee and bit his ear off, which we call him MIKE tyson. We do and you just don't know. What's real, what's the story, it's tough tuna pee wee did escape four times from the school, when he was fifteen during one of his escapes, he joined a traveling carnival asthma. Can we know how much our colonies lovers so he became a car

which my thought is especially back. Then that was a good way to lay low yeah carnivals move around where they all that particular your background was which your real name was. Maybe not probably not pretty interesting, though, that he was a mechanical Fifteen. You again, I don't know how much they checked in age and know how much they checked in two claims. You made the imo mechanic until the total whirl those flying off in the middle of product bill. Who s day with fifteen people on and strew gunnar used wrong button cruise. On that thing I know you were really bombed when you got turned down to be the pixie dust spreader on the tilt, a whirl you're, still kind of upset about that. Ever really let that go, but it was at the fifteen while he was travelling. He was this around with a carnival pee wee

married a thirteen year old girl, the mayor didn't last long How at least the pee wee tells the story his fellow em, boys at the carnival talked him into finishing out his ends so Obviously the certain point they must have known, or maybe even told them- that he had escaped on the rhine said: hey man, you gotta, go back finish this out and he did on February twenty eight nineteen. Pee wee was due for release the head of the roof. Warm school, wrote a letter to the superintendent of the california state hospital they read. Dr Odom, the subject was committed to this institution. On june eighteenth, nineteen, forty six by the court of general sessions of orange county under indictment for assault and battery with intent to kill. He plead guilty to this charge and was

in here until he reaches the age of twenty one years or until their wise discharge by law. We are not attempt any diagnosis, but we are you're from our dealings with abnormal delinquents that this boy's antisocial and there is something in his past development, then, is praying what is more. We are requesting. Psychiatric treatment and proper placement in view of the fao that we are unable to adjust this boy to a group, and so I know that's a lie at a mouthful, but I wanted to read that because basis, lee you have the head of this reform school sang. I think you need to reconsider this, this boy, got a lot going on to set him free tool at him, loose may not be in best interest of the general public. At the view,

least this person is asking for some psychiatric treatment placement in a proper facility. You think any of that happens no. Now, of course, now the boy where they re- oh yeah, there's no doubt that this guy had pee wee pact, but of course they have a lot of dealings with him over the what for five years that he was air. Peewee was set free on his eighteenth birthday and when he got out, he found out that his wife, who he'd make While he was in the carnival, she had divorced him. She was already remarried. So he got married to a local girl whose name is really hard to find a couldn't, find it in any

sources, but they didn't stay together. Long gibbs and you didn't take long at all for donald to return to a life of crop. Now- and we see this, people just don't give reformed and they go back to their own way doing things back to the life of crime. Yet I'm just not sure how much reform. Work was actually done, I'm not even sure how much of it have today. I really don't know, but I do think a lot of these people when they get out. They just don't know what else to do gibson. He dropped out of school when he was eleven years all right, he doesn't have hardly any schooling now was, a mechanic could have gotten a job,

at a service station or a body shop, or something like that, probably but outside of that, what do they really teach them? Besides a lot of physical labor, stuff yeah, I I think you know he probably looked at his I've done. This I I know it works. I can get some money, I'm going to do and not me the fact that even more probably talk about a but he's got a frog team that is Turning up these urges to do some, really horrible things donald its attorney later on his murder trot was a guy and grady query. Query spent twelve years with We interviewing him for his book. He we serial killer or homicidal maniac volume one end to this guy described in a dull, pee wee as intelligent polite and completely on remorseful, and were we'll talk about it, probably more and impart to buy you eventually p,

we admitted to and then attempted to justify, every murder of which he was a cue used in the days leading up to his execution, but I think what was interest thing about queries book. Is it really kind of contributed to this reputation, at pee wee got as the meanest man in south carolina. He wrote that An old was a true sociopath, the only rule he acknowledged were own, and if you broke his rules, your life might be the price peewee the killer, apparently devoid of conscience. I'll tell you right off the bat. To me that described so many people we ve profile. It really does you have your rules, don't applied I've got my own set of rules, because your rules would keep me for doing what I want to do and if you get my way I'll kill you

think the lack of empathy, the lack of conscience. It goes right with it. It's like flipping a switch. Controlling whether you live or die, and if I make the decision You're gonna die, makes no difference to me go on with the rest of my day, I believe, get back to die all these out the reform school his first. Was a worker on tobacco. For now, of course, he couldn't just do that. Right gives you, to try to make a little extra money by stealing tobacco and selling it. He also started other business scheme which was burning. On farms for insurance scheme thomas. People would pay him to burn down farms so that they could collect the insurance money in it. Probably didn't take long right for the rumours to spread about his past criminal history and for some of these farmers to reach out to him and say hey

we know you're willing to do certain things. Will you do this, so he got himself a partner and he began. In collaborating with local tobacco farmers to burn down their barns for money. Now, of course, Donald would get a little bit a cut of that money, but it didn't take long for people to start to suspect that Pee wee was the the mastermind or the person that was committing all these fires you Heaven abnormally large amount of barn fires have very specific area right. You have a guy who is well known for being prolific criminal or who are you going to think right off? The bat is responsible, good. All pee wee get all peewee just one year after his release from reform, school peewee was back to committing violent crime. In nineteen. Fifty two at the age of nineteen he attempted to kill another girl.

This teenage girl was the daughter of his employer, and I guess what Now was that she was teasing her about down, barnes and a one point she threatened or afford him to the police, but that turned out to be the wrong thing. They do yeah with a guy like you. I because obviously he does only get in trouble again. He doesn't want to go back to some type of facility loses freedom. He attacked this girl with a hammer. Led her skull. Now she survived, and He we earn himself a six year, sense for attempted murder this evening very vicious guy. You know at this when his life in and even earlier It seems as though he was maybe trying to kill these girls, but he didn't sixty. Thankfully, by that man, What gives they were alive is too then tell police, exact

what happened and he later ended up serving time. What have seen with so many killers. You at a certain point some. Ngos, often they're mine, saying I can't keep leave in people alive to turn me. I need to make sure and I think we're gonna see that with pee wee as well. When I work is in all one solution to manage employee schedules, attendance and communication, it's perfect for small businesses, save time building your work casual, no more hours spent with pen and paper or spreadsheets scheduling, templates and drag and drop shift creation makes it easier than ever easily our time with payroll integration you can choose the one I work suite of tools that fits your business best when it's time to process payroll. Everything you need is all in one place and sent automatically to your favorite payroll provider useful

example cell scheduling to show employees that you care about their work, life balance a huge benefit that keeps workers on staff and act your tracks potential new iris, a game changer in this tight labour market start your forty. A free trial today add when I worked out come you'll have acts as to all the features so you'll know right from the start, how much it can help your business one more time for that fourteen day, free trial head. So when I work dot com now this portion of peace. Time line is a little bit unclear and in all the different sources, really the only references to this incident or from the one morning newspapers published back and nineteen fifty two from the research it seems, like Donald, was sent to the local jail for this crime. And eventually he escaped and was out for over a week. I think he good it at escaping is forcing

like tat. He had some bundy anymore. I'd. Bundy was really good at escaping but during his time on the rhine, he committed another heinous crime. This was onset we're twentieth. Nineteen, fifty two when peewee, raped another thirteen year old girl. He was at his uncle weldon parrots home. He borrowed his uncles trying to go to his house to get lunch and when he laughed, he invited several Children with him, including this thirteen year old girl, he lord her into his house and then attempted to rape her, but apparent he was surprised by his wife and fled in the truck. His uncles truck was found banned in at potato bed, ferry and marion count sums gives you got married at some point again again. The Horses on this earth are not great you. You are talking about newspapers, going back to the nineteen fifty here

can be difficult. Madonna was on the run again there for a number of days, It was on September twenty six that farmer, J, c power reported that his shot gun had been stolen, the police search, the surrounding words, and they found remains of a camp where they believed pee wee slapped the night before on the twenty. Seventh, a heavily armed policy serves the woods and swamps for him, but locate and search team had to call it off when it got door. Pee peewee was captured at the end of may timber and he was convicted of arson, saw what the deadly weapon an attempted murder, He was sent to nine years at the state pen in colombia, south carolina, so I want to take a step back four minute and just kind of look at his life up to this your bad childhood. If you go with some of the claims, he's major

maybe they're all true. Ok, committed crimes from a very young age and really just never stopped me even that She was locked up here committing crimes. He was sexually assaulting Other young boys. Now he claims he was being sexually assaulted himself, and maybe he was as yet let out. What's he do just goes right back into yeah gets caught escapes as soon as he can. He is trying to sexually assaulted, very young girl. So to me the word that comes up isn't george, no matter what you do. You're, not gonna, quote: unquote fix this guy he's always going to go back to what he knows and what he wants to because I think that's important sure it is you say knows, and I do understand what you're saying I think he wants to do these things. He has a compulsion to do these things and he just doesn't care about the concept

It says I think, there's a part of that, and then you can say that same thing about many many different killers. So when you grow up and you get accustomed going to jail, the threat of going back to jail is just not that scary to these guys, oh yeah, that's great. The deterrent is not bear right. The way It would be with me you most people listening who now wants to go to jail exactly. I think these guys not that they want to go, but that their need to do whatever sick twisted thing. They. Do at waze far. Ways the consequence of going to jail because been there done that, and they know they can do it again if they have to. I think the problem for pee wee is even though he can do the time it's time, for him was rough. The reform school. The same thing basically happened to him at the state pen. You know you

these can big guy. These guys are leading groups of people ruling there. The gin PA bright, violent, feared inmates One of these guys again chose donald as his sex object. I think, because he was so small, he was weak and maybe even pray. Thank you could use our word by these type of guys, Botswana go away than one option think at a certain point he realised that he had to kill in order to protect himself. He didn't just want to be respected. He wanted to establish a fearsome reputation, so he approached a man named hazel, brasil, who was one of the most powerful men in the prison and he slit his throat

While this guy was sitting on the toilet. Will you know what, if you're, going to get somebody in prison as the time to do it on on the can yep or when they're sleeping? Will you you've heard that axiom you ve heard people say that in movies or whatever you soon you get in there. You find the biggest guy and you go after that will get you some instant respect, Donald somehow claim self defense. I think when you jump a guy who's trying to do his business and you slit his throat self defense right in that moment, it's pretty hard to argue that was it self defense, something that had been happening or was about to happen. Yeah maybe, but he got six months in solitary confinement by what he did. We because when he got out of solitary he

considered kind of a power man in the prison right. He took out a powerful guy, now he's viewed as a powerful guy So this elevated pee wee to the top ranks among the general population from that point, word, no one really messed with him again his wife in side, because much easier because he had some respect that it cost him what an additional three years to sentence the big originally they added on sex, but they later knocked down to three, some like that, but yeah three years he was able to use the fact that people under estimated him to his advantage. We talked about that right after This murder prison psychologist who examined him and that there was no. Nothing wrong with peewee, except for the fact that here

his plane me, I don't know, that's an official diagnosis, but that's what they came up with right, we're not finding any indications of mental ill, we're not finding this when I find nad this guy's just them it s a big any wants to hurt people The name of that movie with guys, like you just mean any prior, won't get this one cause it, sir, Why? Who would you are really giving me a lot to work with here? You're just mean you're. Just me it's all. I can say I'm sure you can I am not going to get this once it was not drag it out. Our I think we're gonna have to go. Letter and alan and move on so well Peewee was in prison. He made a number of successful prison escaped like you, said gibbs. He was pretty good at escaping from prison really well.

In one of them. He rode inside a trash barrel that ultimately transported him out side of the prison as like some day. Superman thing where lex luther comes up with the plan right, but a it worked here did didn't take em long for police to find him at the trouble trio's old clubhouse, while places of all places, that's where he went so I said it right a number of prison escapes during but these when he escaped t camped out in the form of words for months the time he drank old water from ditches heat rattlesnakes if he could, hon anything else: he basically was a survivalist he was. He was survivor without the million dollar jackpot prize. Sometimes used women for a place to stay for sacks, an for protection,

some over the years, peewee married six one and had two children that he was aware Surely, in Donald June six, when that's a large number when you think about the fact that probably a lot of this time he's on the run from the law. Exactly but still able to meet women march Holmes author of Paul, meadow predators, monsters among us wrote, number of times. Gascons escaped from authorities would be humorous if not for the horrific consequences of him being a free man, and I get that right. You can look at this hiding in a barrel and getting transported out of the prison is almost part of some type of comedy. The problem as we know when he's on the outside he's doing really bad exactly yeah, so it would be humorous in a vacuum,

but not when you know what the results are of him being outside in nineteen. Divide, pewees, wife, divorced him for unknown reasons. What we don't know what they are gives birth think we can speculate. Guy was doing bad stuff if he was a convicted found. At one point, he got married again Marriage only lasted two weeks after a second prison escape, he beat involved with a woman named betty gates, henhouse meeting all these women. I he's a liar. That's perfect word, for they travelled the tennessee to bail out betty's brother when don came back to their hotel room. One day he found out that the brother was actually Betty's husband who had recently escaped from prison, and this turned out to be bad for peewee, because the police found them both to convicts and they both gas and back to prison. So maybe this explains. Why he's able to meet some of these women? Maybe

he's, not me, I'm at church right, that's for sure. You know they. They ve got the wrong things going on. Donald was released in August nineteen sixty one, then he went back to florence burglarized homes. In his spare time. He worked with a traveling minister, as a driver and assistant. So you would think okay he's trying to turn his life around now. Basically, what this did was it made it easy for him to travel, different towns to burglarize houses without getting caught. Well, you know the time they might have figured it out he's gone, and are they really gonna? Look that hard a guy who's, assisting a minister ebene by nineteen sixty three. He was back in prison for raping a twelve year old girl and we to talk about it. Why is he getting the chance? Are they letting him out so that he's able to continue

raping very young girls at a certain point and I'll use the word again rate and cordial Somebody in authority has to look at this guy. Look at his track record is criminal record and say maybe this one person? We don't wanna, let back out right. He needs to be a lifer on june. Eight nineteen sixty four during an arraignment donald escaped from and story window of the courthouse. He basically you the makeshift row that he fashioned out of prison mattress cover ok, Bundy, tuner yeah little Bundy ask its daft when he was pretty close to the ground. May valley hurt his leg, but he made to run for about a block. He stole a car are any ran into the swamp to hide out the sheriffs deputy sent bloodhounds to find him.

And apparently, while they waited for the bloodhounds to do their work, they took a nap in their car. Probably not perfect. Police were certainly got a surprise when they woke up. They did woke up to a message written on the back of the windshield. That sad pee wee was here pretty embarrassing. The next time you walk into the station, I'm sure those guys were theo but of a few jokes at play point: the f b. I got involved with the search and they did full loney, asleep fleeing to his charges. Should that be there are automatically you think, a fallen who fleas they gotta get some kind of charger right. Pee wee was free for now, weeks and during this time he traveled the north carolina south carolina georgia, florida georgia officers almost caught him by

He ran a roadblock wrecked his car and again escaped in a swamp. This guy was really good and swamps. He was afraid to go into this bombs. No, which would not be me because as there's a few things that I am deftly afraid of alligators being very near the top of that lives here Alligators, don't mess around religious kid town, they do they roy you and then they take you to the bottom now, for you is it I've seen the movies I dont want none of it, and you know it is poisonous snakes either. I dont like snow I don't like alligators Donald fled to colombia. And there he started a relationship with the seventeen year old girl. This girl finally turned him in for statutory right, so he was reached insured on august fourteenth, nineteen sixty four on august, twenty nine

he was transferred from florence to colombia to service ends. He had charges for rape escape unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, interstate transportation of the stolen vehicle and out of them, so his trial took place in october. Ninety six, for he was convicted sends to a whopping seven years in prison for all that. For all of that, on top of this laundry list of criminal charges that he had act up over the years. This is my home point: gibbs fraud, the sixties, the seventies. It was almost as if what you it before what you had been doing since eleven years old, made no difference and lets say eighteen rightly say from the time he was at the doll it was like it didn't matter, we're not

putting it into a cow again. The other thing I think it shows is how disgustingly law all value they placed on the rape of women as very true in its it sickening rightly states disgusting. The thing that time after time, he raping, sometimes very young girls, but even a seventeen year old girl in he is getting not much more than a slap on the wrist seven years in ease what paroled, after four yeah healy did for years, and I think it was after this point that pee wee gascons made the decision that he was never to go back to prison again now a lot of times. You would think. Ok, great. That means you're going to Your life around you just gonna, go the straight and narrow,

mighty him. He just said: I'm not going back to prison because I'm going to become a full time sirocco, I'm not gonna leave any. What does this mean and again that's something we see so often right at a certain point. These people figure out that the only way or maybe the best way to keep myself out of prison. Is to not leave any witnesses behind so he's out of prison, m p. We posed as a roof, sir. He occasionally fixed up stolen cars to resell. I think to a lot of people in prospect. It seemed why he was reformed, but Obviously we know that's very far from the truth. In nineteen sixty nine p, we began hunting for victims along south carolina coast in these murders would be why he would call his coastal kill

so he traveled up and down the roads. Picking up hitchhiker, he tortured them. Dump their bodies in the marshes making sure weigh them down so that, One would ever find now gibbs. Nobody would find out about his what he called coastal kills until his arrest in nineteen. Seventy five, obviously we're going to cover more of that in part too well, and that's where the eighty two one hundred people coming to play right, yeah. I think at that point he eventually confessed to his daughter shirley, that he murdered one thousand eight hundred and ninety, maybe one hundred people. I guess she begged him not to tell her any of the details. She do. But he said he had to get it off his chest. This is enough. Asian than pee wee, also told wilton, Earl co, author of final truth, so peewee like to visit the local hardware store

is, but he wasn't goin, therefore any type of business purpose. He went there to pick out tools to torture his victim He claimed that he murdered somewhere between ten and twelve hitchhikers each year and in his confessions to surely he said that every so often he would get the urge to see blood. That's the way he put it. He caught himself, a vampire and basically what he said was that every few weeks he began to feel anxious, he got shaky and the feelings wouldn't stop until he killed some. So you and I talk about in our frog demon- that's right getting this. This urge this com. Ocean, whatever it is, that comes over a killer. That says I have to take a lie,

it is almost as if it returns them back to kind of arresting state until they do that they're all over the place, we ve heard it many times you're. Obviously, there's something to it. We don't understand it. Investing in discovery reported that Donald himself said that the aggravated and bothersome feelings made him feel like he had to commit acts of violence. His first victim was a female hitchhiker from south carolina in nineteen. Sixty nine he raped. Fourchan this woman until she died, then sunk, her body in the swamp he later row. All I could think about is how I could do any thing I wanted to her so right. There you're talking about control, power and that's Pretty common theme among serial killers. Alleged. Lead. Donald became angry. When

woman resisted his sexual advances, he beat her Well, she lost consciousness, then raped and tortured. Her so gives we talked, at the fact that he made the conscious decision to kill, and once he started that was it. And he began a pattern of picking up both male and female hitchhikers too during their man, murdering them he stabbed strangled suffocated in shot victims. He then mutilated the bodies he may have cannibalize some of them. He castrated some of the male victims. I mean this was a bad guy before any this everest This is a whole another love one eyes amongst yes, right, is a monster who is just out their killing. You are one of the things that is interesting to me is that these picking, both male and female victims her in a lot of time.

We see killers having emma where they are. They stick to one. Gender sat always the case. But you see it a lot of times. It was almost as if he didn't care he's just looking for someone. Torturing, kill, pee, wee sad. This process of rape, torture and murder was his vision in two how to satisfy the feelings. He had and make them go away. Urges urges sick, urges twisted. Yeah over time. He said that He learned how to torture people so that he could keep them alive for several days and for him he probably thought this was an art. I can keep these victims alive longer to even satisfy my urges, even greater yeah. I don't doubt it he problem view this as being successful right. I've learned I've grown I've gotten better.

He occasionally made his victims watch him eat their body parts or force them to eat their own body parts. Ok, I think about threw up in my mouth well. This is some hannibal lecter type stuff we're talking about here between nineteen, sixty nine and nineteen. Seventy fought the play found the remains of men and women long hi ways confirm at least some of these coastal kills. There aren't many specific details about them, because I think a lot of people believed old made up some of these really high numbers to get attention from the media, but these coastal kills, as he call them eventually led into what he called serious murders again in november nineteen seventy emmy breakdown down firm in Europe. Me these other things that we just talked about: we're not serious murders,

there's more heinous. No gruesome staff to come, but I think he referred to these coastal killings, as is recreational, weaken fun yeah. This is just like what I did on the weekend. Let me I'm a lot of us play golf. You might go bowling, you might go sailing fishing whatever it is he's going out. On his coastal kill. Is I'm gonna capture, torture and eventually kill somebody s my weekend guys, but then he gets into what he calls the serious ma. Leaders, because I think it is mine. Gibbs P, we had I'm serious! That's the said, because you bees these going to be just random people right. In these cases he killed people. He knew that he felt it long term owed him money, it was different, doesn't make it better, but to hear this wasn't just simple:

pleasure as some of the other murders or had been or too can fraud or satisfy you know the whatever was welling up inside him right. He was gonna kill with a purpose. Yeah yeah. He had a purpose for these murders. In one of his first serious murder. Victims would be his own needs so well, it into that in part to as well. His other murders how he was finally caught his trial and his execution, but no doubt mean this. Guy was an absolute monster and we still have a lot to go yeah. He made me throw up there towards the end. Thank yeah, and I had to witness that yeah and you're welcome I'm scarred now, but that's it for our part, one on Pee wee gascons, more her some stuff to come next week and we'll get some voicemail

check those out his harem be backed up on our way again until door dashing and listening to your podcasts. I was just calling because I had. I heard somebody call in about asking to hear about the mcmartin preschool case, and I still hadn't heard anything about that, but I grew up in southern california. I grew up around the neighborhood where richard ramirez was. I, though, that of brightening. We all were scared about him at the time a big one, that good farming for lies with that move. Martin preschool case it was crazy and the little kay grown up out there like you're, like a wise that grandmama grandpa. Why so? I was born a guy had enough information on that, if he ever were going to do that. That would be cool that you just mentioned about how there are certain cases we all here as kids, that really impacted us, but that was one of them

it's good to hear you guys. You guys are still awesome and I keep your head on a swivel and keep your own time ticket, and I can't wait to hear next week's okay by two so excited she is happy love it. So let me martin preschool case is one that is always fascinated me. It's on the list has been on the list. Probably since we started the podcast again, sometimes forget about things. I've I see something else, a peaks. My interest will definitely do it. No doubt in my mind that there's plenty of information out there sure it could even have to be more than one episode, because there are so many things to that case. A party neck from tennessee and I'm calling, because I want you to cover the case of hollywood

eva from darden can see, and I would honestly also like you, I know you did all criminology. I would like you to cover ted Bundy with gibi. Please you two guys are awesome, love you guys. Y'all are great, but yeah holly bobo from dark in tennessee and ted Bundy, Cleef yeah. Both cases are are definitely on the list. I mean a lot of people want us to cover bondi, but you know for me: gibbs. There was, much that has come out about him lately with netflix movies and the different books and things I don't know I felt like you know. Obviously, every podcast at some point does Bundy in and we will definitely come him, but I can probably in putting some distance between all the stuff. That's that's been on him. Lately

making. Maybe this is the first time for even a boy's, my name's destiny them south carolina. Listen you! By having a moving car, can I'm actually addicted a consummate each one? work, don't tell anybody, but I spread the word to people at work who love true crime and now they're upset in that we talk about which cases which and sometimes we were to think the same. When we look at each other and we're like oh boy, but anyway, I love you guys to death, especially given your laughter, your humor, in between such the seriousness of the situation. With these cases, it kind of makes it easier to listen to cause. Some of these cases are just horrible to hear, but with your humor, it makes it easier, but there's a cave here in south carolina, it's a bit soft and somewhat unstable and the heather Elvis case.

As you know, she was taken by a former boyfriend and his wife and they never found her body, but both of them are in prison right now for for her disappearance and possible murder- and maybe you guys can look into that case- a hit this area of myrtle beach very hard, and it was shocking and sad, especially for the Elvis family Imagine what they're going through, not no more their daughter is Madame yeah, I'm king gave all the way our mike, but when you I love you guys, you have a good one, and I say this from south carolina entrusting the pope. Was she likes this one? Yes, we're doing right now, deftly will look into that for a future opposite, and I can't believe we get a team gimme. Finally finally, because we hardly ever have exactly like I gotta be wiped from downpour our again just one and Let you know that I'm not related to william now Darlin, oh

relieved about that will keep up the good work love show just became a patriarch. Am the obscure content on the website. I realise how much extra content there was so once I get then king church high crime. All time, I'm gonna go to unsolved criminology and try to the website, you pack, you guys later he today. Thank you. On time. Picking awesome. I know she was really worried about that being connected to dock. So, she mentioned Pedro. We appreciate that support. There is a lot of content. There is out there and a lot of people are surprised. When they actually get on to find out how much stuff is there and when you're there. If you can find a little tiny, cowboy hat and click on it, it takes you to the special rex west. Ass. It does everybody we had. One thing mailbag melody builder bag cynicism.

Care package. She sent you some. Twister's and playing cards she sent me some do so a machine He listens to the chosen as what we like in shells, sent me a hardly challenge coin, wherein the money we are lebanon. Hi buddy. That is it for now. Their episode of true crime, all the times for might end gavi stay say, fan key your own time taking

use belch into the microphone as the visa flying fish. You did. I heard you did here. I did hear away. I kept my I was close, no, no, no see. I only have one of my ear. I guarantee he doesn't come through my headphones on one of my ears. I heard that. Did you really

I got it, I man, no, you did not, and I'm leaving the sin. I want people to go bag rewind, fifteen thirty seconds listen to that music and see if you can hear gibbey, suppress a belch, but do it unsuccessful. It was like the day of K, video of YAP back into the love you back until they will. I dont have felt here- and I heard the music pretty loud so, but I wasn't to that. I was listening to you, be gibbey, peter that you force fed me. Vesture pack could be