Hello, everyone and welcome to episode thirty, nine of the true crime. All the time podcast mike argus in and with me. As always is my partner and true crime? Might gibson gibbey goin on today. I'm just happy to be here

man, you're just use every beer, you know folks. I love a good game nigh with the facts and the latest star of game nights is hunter to kill. This again is perfect for crime, mystery, thriller or horror fans. You get to be the detect you get to sort through. All of the evidence used the clues and try to solve the case within an immersive murder. Mystery gay solve a murder hunted killer, honey killer has different difficulty levels and storylines, so you can customize it to your interest and skill of each box is a complete murder mystery that you have to solve your thee. Detect my family loves camp calamity. We ve had such a good time without to hunt a killer, dotcom, slash true crime atp in use co, t tickets for ten hours off your order today. Thank you, hunt killer for sponsoring. This episode so gives a star. Our patriarch shouts sure we have Cathy Davis

Gillian major hyena sore amos or then we have betty Jackson. And I know you remember Betty gibbs from crime con. Yet we took pictures with Betty hung out with her a little bit and better- Is the one that actually got the crime contact to forty brave over? It is because what, if crammed crimes not around now used up with a tattoo what they are, but it does have her husband's fingerprint dear, so either I think she's attribute was future scans realisation just put her arm right there and scan and be good. Then we have rachel fur and megan marie megan maria Megan marie like to first names so you, everyone knew importers As we always say, we want to thank the people that continue to stay with this month after month. It is very much depreciated absolute

Pritchett all of it so gibbs keeping with our tradition. I wanted give a shout out to one of our very early patron supporters, and that roberta miller, your big thanks to roberta First, supporting as from the very beginning of the show, yeah Pritchett that she was one of our very first patron supporters, says a giver very much appreciated. So we do have a couple voice, males that will play towards the end of the episode it gives gotta talk about. She cried all the time unsolved, yeah right Episode dropping sunday the same time as this one right about gregg and burn that all a marker ad Actually forty eight hours made this it's it's a very interesting case for good, so good, twists and turns lot twists and turns so make sure you check that an unsolved sunday night if you haven't,

and so recently make sure you check out our website. True crime, all that I'm dot com you find out. contact information, including our voicemail number, including our voice mail number. A lot of people say that all the time put out the voice. Mail number it's on website under the contact section and there also merchandising fanny. By one any of that. That's on theirs links on the website to that as well. and then the lasting also gives is. We got this coup and episode common ops, probably gonna drop, not this week, but next week burundi like amid we. It won't replace a regular episode. It will be an additional episode that comes out. Midweek bonus, reel yeah bonus type episode going to be good, though we're going to hold back just going to be kind of fun free form. We haven't finalized it, so there is still time to get ways males in if there's any by that

been wanting to do that, but hasn't set one, and yet I gibbs are you ready? talk about robert Charles brown. I am now my edge mercy you're on the edge of this day have your seed about what you already know. But what are the thing? robert Charles brown, not a household name, not a serial killer. That's probably gunnar roll off the tongue of people when they start naming top serial killers. Brown It has been described as polite courteous. I mean this is how people have talked about just a good guy. Well, if they said he was good guy, but they did say he was polite and courteous equals good guy. You can sure some reports have his. I q, ebbs as high as one forty. So as we ve talked about, I mean there's just short of where europe, if you gimme extra time I come through, you can get ire.

yeah just go, I'm a little extra time, sewers, and some good things about robert Charles brown here The problem is, he was also what You would call disorganized throw killer and he actually could possibly be one of the most pro a fig serial killers in the history of the united states. If brown is be believed his killing. free runs from nineteen. Seventy all the way, to nineteen ninety five, while that's severe, we ve done cases like this before gibbs, where Most of the information does not come out until after the killer is caught, but this one's even different from those that we've done like that this one's got some real twist to it we're gonna get into all that I give so as we like to do

get in to Robert Charles browns early lie here. born on halloween in nineteen. Fifty two is kind of a omen they could be crushed, a lot of people that are born on halloween. I was just thinking. I got a niece that was born on it and she's she's. Wonderful, so I don't think that's a it's. A bad omen at all. More of a coincidence how about we caught that yeah, we'll leave it at that. So he grows in this very large family in Kinshasa who shot it is a small town, less than three thousand people in northern louisiana I'll. Take your saying that right now thinks a coup shudder. I'm going with kusadama sounds more russian versus french well, our track record of pronouncing names in Louisiana is not what you would call stellar yet, whenever irrigated that so

go, I'm going to shatter, I think, we're let it run and will be corrected later. and we have a lot of listeners from them. Indiana, because they've reached out to us before it just so happens. Gibbs there's a lot of serial killers in Louisiana and we ve touched on some of em, so that swamp when in the heat man the here that he human, just drive, people were gonna drive and the do bad things are some but back who shot, which use rudely interrupted me on bout forward, fifty miles south east of shreveport, the robber brow was the youngest of nine as I said, is a big family and dad held a wide range of jobs. and when I say why I mean wide me: he ran a dairy farm at one point. He was a janitor and then some

Point later Gibbs he becomes a deputy sheriff here in the town that they live in, not right, it's mom was a homemaker which, what else could she be gives got nine. Heads- I encourage mandatory somebody's gotta watch, these nine kids and take care of him. So that's what his mom did. One in resting fact. So I said his add would become a deputy sheriff one of roberts, brothers, would later in life, become a state trooper state trooper, just meaning what I say to go. Look at super trooper superman make it through one episode where you put A movie my bed already pulled over decouple over any more right. Now. Gibbs childhood was not a great for robber as good a super troop area. People likes like super to preserve, seen it their reference. His mom was reported.

Have trouble with outbursts of rage. She was emotionally unstable and they you had his siblings- and we mentioned he had eight of them- and it was said- They tormented him. They humiliated him growing up and on top of You have his mother report italy, allowing all of this to happen. Now just allowing it. She may have encouraged it at the very least gives condoned so gives have to talk a little bit about the triad. We haven't been or two on a lot of our recent episodes, but we have information about that on brown. He didn't have all three of the factors, but when did have was during animals and he was into setting fires so arson as well, just to the trifecta

We need bed wedding and we don't have that so yet, so he had two of the three which is enough. Why think? Those those are the two big ones right. I've never understood the bed waiting fully anyway right because all kids whet the bed g. Are you well the bed at twelve or fourteen is that what it is, or in your case forty three forty three rare, but I think as far Those three elements, the two big ones for me: torturing animals and arson, and for me, the only. What really stands out for me is the cruelty to animals. If you're willing to do that. I think you're wilma do about anything. I would agree with you on that and then you and I talk. A lot about people getting hit on the head is not part of the mcdonald triad, but that seems like. At least and allow the episodes of wheat done. A very big indicator had dino some type head trauma. So as a child brown, hair

several traumatic experiences and his life. The first happened on new year's eve and nineteen sixty one and what happened. gibbs was that Robert's grandfather, committed suicide by throwing himself down a well wow man, that is seems like a very strange way to commit suicide. At that point, Robert would have been nice. Years old and then just a couple years later. His aunt brutally murdered so we're talking about your time span gibbs here, where that's a lot to take in for a kiss in the short amount of time and effort, anybody, let alone a kid right, yeah you're right I mean any by of any age, but especially in nine ten year old, have to wonder what a fact those kind very traumatic experiences had on robber brown, both

italy and emotionally? So we talk about in school, a little bed people would come out iter and describe him as cod, I a loner, but he did have friends. I mean he wasn't a loner loner he just he did like to keep to himself, but he had a good number of friends. Well, he was polite and kurdish he was polite. Incur yes, but the other thing that they set about aim was that he had an extremely short views that I mean it could ignite at the drop of a hat There was stories about in a playing basketball and jean men if he thought some without him I mean he he would just go off on people and, as we said, No, the guy's fairly intelligent, he's almost too small, you are, but he ends up dropping out of high school at the age of sixteen brown joins the army at sea. Nineteen any actually

observing gibbs from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen. Seventy six and he made the rank of sergeant you're. So he was in for quite a little bit there at seven years. yet during the vietnam war part of that right, so he goes to the army and sixty nine later on, Gibbs he's gonna tell investigators that he actually committed his first murder in nice in seventy while he was stationed in south korea was your there with arthur shocks, he might have been cause arthur, did some bad things when he was her brow didn't, do the same type of things and in over there that arthur shark cross did, but allegedly he did kill somebody, but they never could corroborate this more so this one's really just on his word, but at the ages seventeen. He also gets married

and he marries a thirteen year old girl named terry. Thirteen years old, gibbs, yes, Austin but you know what back then, maybe we're out and back there that was accepted I don't yeah. I wasn't thinking so now. If you were saying this was like the forties or the fifties, I'd say maybe thirties and forties. Maybe right yeah, I mean I, I know some people in my family, a couple of generations removed that got married very A very yeah yeah. It's not the aged difference, it's the aged difference That time do you had? Somebody was twenty three when someone get married, no big deal thirteen and seventeen big deal, the ice age differences still the saying that, so it's not that the number know how old you are at the time and maturity level. Here right now, I gotcha, but in my eyes a thirteen year old should begin Mary. I don't. I don't have a lot of facts around the situation or,

how it all went down but ministerial? generally louis type situation we got going on here. My question is where these girls, parents and where they can be ok with it and they must have been. Maybe I'm not ok with it, because you got a thirteen year old, yeah you're right Now what brown was in the army? He actually received a good, number of awards. It's like we said he was therefore, seven years in seventy three, He gets a divorce from terry, but he marries exact same year, and this is a be like vol being thing that we're gonna have to talk about, he marries of a vietnamese woman named to it men, hewn, that's what I'm going with. I was going to go with the same thing where you had that same same yeah pronunciation, so we're we're spot. Onto the idea now. Seventy four roberts father died,

the same year, his first choice. was born with you, he has a sun named Thomas buddy. Forces hewn and nineteen seventy six, and this is the same year that he gets a dishonourable discharge from the army and it was said it was around drug abuse, so a night in seventy seven rob brown marries for the third time He marries a woman named Brenda where, and there were story around this marriage gibbs. That really indicated to me just how brown treated, these women that he married because he beat air so severely at one point in the marriage early on has none of these marriages last very long that shit barely survive. Well, if he said He had a temper. The drop of a hat went off, yeah he had very short fuse. And apparently no problem

it out on women whatsoever most scoured do I grew so this incident occurred, I sometimes nineteen eighty cause. It was right after this that they got a divorce. So at this point gibbs brown Twenty eight years old, been married in divorce three times, and he has on child and the reason why I think it so important that we have to talk about some of these relationships is because it's gonna come out later that These relationships, the failings, his thoughts about these women, they're gonna, be big drivers. Why he says that he chooses his victims, so gives us same here that he divorces, Brenda He marries a woman named Rita and just to getting married brow strangled this woman so badly that she ends up in the e r and the doctors gonna

come out and say that, strangulation was so bad that colonel larynx was almost completely crush. Lottery age yeah a lotta rage. I like the word used, which was coward, how you could throw piece of shit in there to refuse fuel towards a bunch of other words. Anybody that treats a woman like this deserves all those types of work. All in all gibbs brown is gonna get married five times and what I very interesting is that when you look at the descriptions of all five of these women they were very very very similar. He had a type yazzi into the area of the fact that he had a type, so they were all petite. All five wade between ninety five

I and a hundred twenty five pounds, but brown didn't kill any of these women, but I think you have to say give that all of them should consider themselves very lucky not to have had who endure some of the domestic by london and the physical abuse that they did, but lucky that they got away from the sky with their law, knowing what we're getting ready to talk about yeah, back, I'm sure they're real glad what an that's something you and I've talked about another podcast. What does that feel like to somebody to know that they've had a brush and a lot of times. It's just a like a passing encounter. these people were married to this monster fur a year or two years, three years, whatever one be pretty weird I mean maybe we're like enough- did pack ass whistle

for a while and then you found out they had this stuff in the closet. You know they came out later. I find out that they had a secret life they were they'd, been hiding from you all this time year vote. Bar and travels, and I'm sure that is gonna, be weird when it comes out for me. If we for you when I have the bail you out here. Don't good for you our nets, the one good thing about you, so just a touch on little bit about what Some of these women had to endure browns. Fourth wife would come out tell reporters that he once put a pistol to her head and pulled the trigger, but it went click like the old russian roulette, kinda yeah- I don't know if it was loaded at all right. Russian roulette is what, when why there's one bullet in boat and you spin, it spin it, and I think, was vietnam. They called it something different. I don't remember what they called it, though. That's good story, then,

yeah. It's always a good story when you go down the path and say, but I don't remember what it's called and then roberts, fifth wife. You know she would tell detectives that he was very vocal to her about how much he hated women, how much he hated cops, and then you have his third wife said that he beat her one time because she forgot put a spoon in the gravy. Well I mean how are you supposed to get the gravy on the taters? A spoon in the gravy but you gotta get the gravy on the taters. Now nobody, ever be physically abused. Never ever and there there's no reason for it, so how you even rank it, but is that that's got to be the worst reason. I've ever heard of for getting up That was somebody.

writing somebody. Whatever the situation was, get up and get a spoon burying their take care of yourself, get your own spoon in this same wife is the one that label robert brown to police as the devil's right hand, man and she, quoted as actually styling. The police. Hey call me when you pull the switch on this guy. Well, she wants to be Air for the electric commissioner yeah, oh yeah, think she wants a front row see, but can you play It sounds like this guy put her through hell and not just her errand. one of these women that he was married to. I think they are put their hand on this, which impose the same time. Yet how? If you don't want to be married, just don't get married five times is marrying somebody to have somebody there to beat on. I think, eventually, you just have to say you're not made to be in relationship yeah, but I don't think people like that realize it yeah. I don't think they have. The

wherewithal. Well, sometimes, I think people chase something that their hope, their visually gap This is not always greener another sigh, but they think it is so they might have something, that's good, but they think there's something better. You just talking about why move from one to the other year, but sometimes you go, put your losses. Man say you know what I'm to be in relationships, because I'm just not made may be relationships, think about it. and that's a negative wisdom. Gibbey

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He ever got at any one. Time was forty five days in jail. I eighty five. He actually its charged with steel, a bell from the local church come on gibbs the hell. Are you going to do with a bell with a big ass church bell? I dunno I spray painted once vandalized the church Well, not a church bell, but another schools bell. Ah, ok, baby at that you are putting your ticket right dear me, and I will never Dana lies in the church to certain other schools bill. So you're gonna say yo la belle. I guess out of the whatever the belfry or whatever you call it about our the bell tower and what are you gonna do it sounds like you're going to sell it on the black market. Was grass or something melted down hell? I dunno. You know tired of trying to make sensible, stupid things that people do is pretty data on its hard. You know I dont dome any type of stealing

but there are some that I understand, better than others right. Stand when someone's hungry and their broke and they shovel tebow's stake in their pants and they walk out the grocery sure I understand that. I'm not saying it's right. Yeah and I understand when people that are addicted to draw break into a house and steal some electronics and then ultimately sell it because our track, get money that to feed that happen, I dont get stealing it Church bell, maybe you're right, maybe was what was made of that doesn't have to be so he's disguise the tools or the know how to melted down or how did? How did he get it down? Those those are pretty heavy, but he's not done stealing. as an eighty six. He takes it All right offer dealership lot as you would do you just walk on the lot in the truck drive off and he drives all

the way- the colorado now not right, which gave him it kind of kind of cool kinda bad ass, yeah, you know, walk in and the keys are there and you just jump in and drive off and keep going. Why? I don't Remember, gibbs, but, and I'm sure you do back in the day it been a lot easier to do that Nowadays I may hell, you can't even get in Damn car ray they got him all locked up, Drivers lies some, I half time. So my wants to go with you. I don't want to some punk going with me. I want to drive, the carbon marcel often gets curly, were there and in colorado, gibbs he's gonna meet with an old girlfriend one of his old bodies and at this point, he's into drugs and he's in the drugs in a pretty big way. He was entomb because that's why you got kicked out of military he was, but I dont know to what degree you said he got kicked out for four.

drug use, drug abuse by dont know to what degree so he's kicking it up, he may have been pretty bad back then I don't know, but you make a valid point right now is into we'd he's into cocaine, but not just you using an he's into selling now as well, and there story that comes out from this friend of his in colorado. Now is disgusting, but it really goes to show the mai and set a robert charles brown, because one night during colorado, they're out partying and brown in shooting a cow for what I do. He considered was fine right no reason to shoot this cow, but he does a man. He proceeds to slit the castro and drink the blood. Kaliko ritual. Well,

I don't know- that's not a normal saturday night in my home town. So yes is disgusting, but it's kind of it's kind of getting to a little bit too. What disguise all about your somethin's? Not firing yeah, he's missing zone you don't just go out and do that on a saturday night for ships and giggles, you typical yeah cow tipping I the a cow you don't and then you don't drink. The boy took gets back to this incident, ebbs what I'm not sure of is you. A combination of drugs and maybe Robert brown's twisted mind- I just don't know a combination of most likely, maybe of the two. So here Getting arrested for the truck fast back in louisiana. He gets eighteen months in prison. Does about seven of those eighteen typical and give

for old and nineteen. Eighty seven and now gives working fast forward to nineteen. Ninety one and I know what everybody's is gonna- be thank it dummy thinkin. You know my gear where all the murders you said, disguise prolific, serial killer, yeah saddam hussein to bear In my own mind, you know the story. You researched We know he started killing in nineteen seventy, but we chose Do this one a little differently? you'll, see why, when everything is said and done or you won't, and you say that were dumb asses and that's ok to your garden, now, Michael, what about me, If you wanna do gibbey score to crime on twitter and to say you're, a dumb ass he's fine with that he likes it or you get it tell me that you love me he has brought me the way so to tell the story correctly gibbs. What I think you have to do is you have to start with

heather dawn, church and heather church was from black forest colorado. It's about of miles away from colorado springs. She thirteen years old at the time and that she went missing and ninety ninety one heather was described as I for one. Seventy. Pounds to we're talking about just a little thirteen year old girl, gibbs, yet anything honour student, an assent, bright, bubbly, thirteen year old girl. On September seventeen. Ninety ninety one heather was baby sitting her five year old brother her mom was out with her two older brothers at a boy scout meeting, heather's me called home around eight o clock to check owner it had a conversation. Everything was fine, but by the time that got home around nine. Thirty. They all

he found the five year old brother he was tucked in bed heather, was nowhere to be found so ass. You can imagine gibson you would- or I would ever It goes into panic mode, the community comes, gather theirs king, the police are searching, but none of them searches by either the police or the citizens come to help with Lee defining heather and it's not until two years later and ninety. Ninety, three that her skull was covered on a road where of colorado springs. They were able determine that heather died from blows to the head, but really aside, from finding her skull. There was no clues, I mean they found a skull out the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else that was good help them solve this murder, the only

a piece of evidence that they found was set. Finger prints that they were able to lift off of the frame of a window screen at the church house and at the time they had sent the prince out to the collar oh bureau of investigation and to the fbi. There were no matches, they didn't get any hits. It gives you and I talk about a right, the the print database, but this was prior to efforts so this point, what you had was data banks of fingerprints in each state and then you had b, I they had their own data bank, but they weren't connected you couldn't just sit at a computer terminal and access the whole thing. Thoughts go that gives I think you're right. It was a little bit old school because what they ultimately did is ended up. Sending

formation mailing it out to a bunch of different jurisdictions around the country, and they had photographs of the finger. and they also had some computer records that went with it and it actually paid off but not all nineteen. Ninety five so remember she disappeared. ninety one and its not until night ninety five that the authorities in colorado get a match on this fingerprint and they figure out who it belongs to Think it's any secret here that it's gonna be robber brow and we have to go back. Two browns arrest further stolen truck in Louisiana, because this is ultimately what's gonna led to this case being saw you he was fingerprinted. time of that arrest- and it's this humble. evil work. That's done by

the colorado authorities that ends up getting that match coming back, so they can figure out who it is. We'd. Have your fingerprints from inside the house don't leave behind anything, it's not possible. You may have somebody that are similar man, but you don't have mine. I wish you'd take my hand and compare them we've compared them several times we got being reproached the Louisiana stay voice on colombia barriers. So that is the rule In our view, an here, robber brown, saying: there's no way you got mine, take em again test them again, but they had the right guy and the internet thing thing gibbs is that, at the time of the disappearance of heather church, They realised that raw. Brown living about a mile from where heather church live- and it was said gibbs that

could actually see the church house from his where he was living so there the theory of one point that they thought he could see the driveway. and he knew whether or not people we're home or who was home more that that was part of the theory that they came up with right so they arrest brown and after the arrest they searches house or as mobile, homer or whatever and they end up finding a whole bunch of guns. find a lot of stolen property, because apparently he'd been robbing a bunch of his neighbours as well. So after the arrest gives, while their due on background on robber brown date Discover back, we see that there were a number of women that law, near him in croatia, gone missing or had and found murdered,

wheezy anna here then there many times are unsolved. Oh There is no doubt the women the end, there's a lot of unsolved, this'll huh solved ones to but lot unsolved, murders down there? But at this point you ve got the police thinking that they may have a serial killer on their hands. So what The investigators that was working this church case was a guy by the name of loose met and law. People may recognize that name because he was a purse that came out and talked about the job nay ramsay case, and I think he was one of the first people gibbs too really come out and say that he thought that it was intruder that had killed john banana. She have him. Helping build this case against Robert brow and loose It was very season and what he would say is that he had the feeling

talking to brown that this was a guide had had done unbelievable things, bad things, so he was getting like a serial killers type vibe, it's not a word, but I'm saying that any So the prosecution is getting ready to take brown to trial and his defence attorney comes forward with it. we deal, and this is where robber browns gonna plead guilty. The murder of heather church in exchange. Taking the death penalty off the table. Now, as I think you would, I have in a lot of these cases, gibbs the prosecution reaches out to the family right there salting, with the family, It just so happens that the chair family was not in favour of the death penalty, so they agreed to let prosecutors move forward with this deal, brown

would be convicted of first degree murder and get sentenced to life without pearl and normally gibbs. This is what are you and I would be starting to wrap up the case with kind of bee, in our opinion right getting the sign off, but this case is very different, reduce half way into it there because what happens is in two thousand brow decides to write a letter to the El Paso county district attorney This is El Paso colorado, not taxes and gives you and- Talk a lot about unsolved cases on our other podcast and were usually talking about whether or not a case will ever be saw, and I think that there is a chance that a lot of the orders, the work getting ready to talk about would probably now

We have been solved if it were not for what about the come. Next, I would agree. So what you have is a court case group is formed. Their therein instigating. Robert brown he's already in prison he's got a life sentence, but they think that he's a serial killer. You know and part of this cold case group is this Lou smit and I think, he's a big driver of the fact that you know whether it's you call it a sixth sense. You call it into the gin or just the fact that this guy had so much experience on the force eating there's more to robber brown, then what they know about. But this is where the twist comes gibbs, because it's actually Robert brown who shines the spotlight on himself because he ends up sending a letter to prosecutors in two thousand In this letter, brown hints at the fact of what he called

seven opportunities and investigators take this to be him talking about other possible murders, so the cold case group nay jump all over this and they She write brown back a letter asked how about your wedding, and by this did he commit other murders, the trying to get where information out of him and he actually respond with another letter, and this latter gibbs is creepy big. As one part of the latter. It reads: seven sacred virgins in two side by side, those ass worthy are scattered wide. The score is you won the other team, forty eight, If you were to drive to the end zone and a white trans am the score, could be ninety four.

So little freaky now feed dissect. The first part. The score is one to forty eight. I think it's Safe to say that what he's talking about is the guy for one year? Has forty seven out. That they haven't found yet, but he's got forty eight now the next parts, a little more cryptic re talks about- driving to the end zone and a white trans am the score, could be nine meaning they could find a more cells. I could make more fairly easy if they knew were too Well, he also talks about the seven sacred virgins laying site by side or in tomb side by side. So it sounds like you seven that located one spot and then the first of all, you know, individually. Murder throughout

sounds like their seven that must have been. The remains must have been put together and some sacred spot. I think you can in turn, for these a couple of different ways. It is a law cryptic, but a long with the letter. Browning a hand drawn map, on the map he has. Lined the states of colorado wash. in ten california, mexico taxes go homer, easy, arkansas and mississippi. So we got quite a few states here, gibbs and inside the outline of each state. He's written a number, and the number is meant to indicate the body count that he. Act up inside each one of these states, so we talked about his first murder and that was can claiming to

killed somebody while he was in south korea back and nineteen seventy. On top of that. He would claim that he murdered seven people in texas. Nine in colorado. Seventeen in louisiana- that's a big number three in mississippi five and are and saw, and to end california, oklahoma and new mexico and then a single person in washington, and I know we're going gibbs with louisiana. You want to tie some of those into the different unsolved that we yeah yeah. We've done a few unsolved down there and just wondering if that temp yeah you just never No, that's a big number, though seventeen people in Louisiana. Now, if all of this is true what robert brown claims, this would make him like. We said one of the most prolific serial killers in the united

its history, because you have gary ridge way that confessed to forty eight murders, and this was back in two thousand three. what brown did would put him. You know up there if not just passed. Gary ridgway yeah he'd be he'd, be in the mix for sure. So, as you can imagine, this piqued the interest of this cold case team and big way and they try to get brown to open up now, initially he's kind of unwilling to talk, but they do get him to to agree to have discussions with them and eventually he's going to start providing details about some of these murders. Now some of this is done gibbs and you- and I have talked about this before by giving him things that he wants. If that solicits the truth, I don't have a a huge problem

with it, because you're getting closure for families that don't know what happened to their loved ones. When I have a, problem with is giving a killer that has a life sentence for killing a little thirteen year old girl extra privileges for making shit up right and that's what you gotta kind of way. I guess when you, when you do this thing First of all, you had to size up how honest you think this guy's being Then you have the way this person getting extra privileges verses, be enabled to tell somebody actually happened to their wife there d water, their son, whoever it is after a lot of years of now, really knowing whatever happened to him,

yeah, I'm not as worried cause, I just say, throw them in general population when you sent him off the prison where, when he's done getting his extra privilege, yeah yeah, so I'm off the general population but things happen. Let the chips far where they may yeah. That's a gibbey way. That's exactly when it comes to this stuff, and I you're alone, in that I dont think that there's a lot of people that would disagree with you present rules take care of certain things themselves. Man that kills a thirteen year old girl. I don't think there's a lot of people that give a rat's ass. What happens to somebody like that? I I really don't we shouldn't now. There's a you know, I'm a compassionate person, but not for that I know my compassion kind of goes out the window when you, when you start talking about things like that, so there, talking to brown he's, given them details, but

and, at the same time he's getting a lot of extra perks and part of it. It would be like he'll say give me this an hour about three murders and then after that he would ask for some. Now in exchange for details about a certain number of murders and at one point, the coal case, crew and the investigators they ask brown. whether any of his victims ever got away and brown answers. Not ever got away I never gave them the opportunity. He said if you're gonna do it just do it that some cold hearted shit right there, so one thing that would come out from brown as he was talking about the killings, as he said that he rarely ever planned any of his killings. He chose all of his victims at random. He met his victims in just every day.

The types of settings. Motel bars, convenience stores. There was one situation in particular where he said that he had worked as a maintenance man, an apartment complex. and he had changed the locks on one of his victims apartments. So I get that gibbs and that make somebody very hard to catch right. Une I've talked about that before. But the murder that he got caught for was not random. be very random if you live like then a half a mile away from the victim, and you have line of sight to the victims, all right too convenient, So when it's all said and done the investigator we're gonna have a forty four page affidavit the paints. This whole picture of robert brown, how he met his victims, most.

We women there were a few men and how he killed them. Now he said he used different types of guns Sometimes he would use blunt force trauma and he would beat his victims to death and we're gonna get into some of these costs. There are some that are have been corroborated, that we can talk about and lie some other killers. There were a lot of killings that he said he committed by. he couldn't remember names. He couldn't remember enough details where any body ever really say for sure that his story was true, as he get an have the whole story here I don't know if I would If I was out killing forty eight people in twenty five years, not really sure how much detail I will remember. I agree. I may I think, if you killed one person now we're being a here here, go hypothetical

You will remember that, for the rest, your life, I'm only, I think you remember what you do with your knife. I think you'd amber every detail, I cleaned it up. The weather was on purpose accidental, whatever was accidental accidental. In your case, I think you would remember every detail, it wouldn't be sought. You'd forget you. I think you do. If you just talk in one or two yeah, thirtieth, fuzzy round three, let's say: you're a psychopath, you're sick killer chilling, does mean anything to you? I don't think a lot of those things are stand out, maybe as much as they would to somebody like myself, who is a normal person with normal feelings, shirk a normal level of empathy towards others. Here now, but I agree: I think we're on the same page there unless you're like a

decay kept a scrapbook right yeah, he was just so meticulous, so gives we talked about investigators being able to corroborate. some of his information with independent evidence and they were able to do that. To some murders in louisiana, texas, arkansas. in colorado all in all, they would say that there were nineteen murders. That brown claim he committed where The information that he gave was knowledge that only the killer or an investigator could have no solution. Valid, should behind it that there really is, and that that's why I say not all forty eight but ninety in and of itself is alive. So if they think the nineteen is true, there's a good

If that number is a lot higher, when you get to some that he can't remember the details of yeah, I can think I think you can probably safely say. Maybe thirty, that's what I was thinking the benefit of the doubt thirty, but yeah. I think it could be real every one of the forty eight. Yet because what happened is so, even where he had the details. Here. Let's say He would say that he dumped the body and a certain place. say it was a body of what will they couldn't find the bought. But that doesn't mean you didn't, kill somebody right and it doesn't mean he didn't, dump him right where he said he did in forty eight a big number, but it's not a big number over twenty five years now, yeah too here too a year may you're scaring me, but I give you say it makes a tragic them about.

now I get that I notice for somebody like that twice a year, but really you're a hundred percent correct, because killing fifth people is almost unbelievable wit when you think about it in totality sure but when you say that you ve been doing it for twenty five years to people a year It doesn't sound the same yet right I mean is still sounds horrible Don't get me wrong absolutely, but if we're talking just about the mechanics of it Would somebody do it to kill two people a year yeah they could do a serial killer could easily do that if they could get away with it for twenty five years they could kill many more people, I'm actually to be on with gibbs? I'm surprised that the number in the united states is not,

higher than what it is. I really am, and I think it probably is. We just don't know, but I don't know about it when I give so it's time talk about some of the murders that I believe, are linked to brown and the first one we're gonna talk about is key foreign fuzzy haze. She went by fuzzy now she was from croatia, Louisiana only fifteen years old and she went missing on the fourth July back and nineteen eighty, so we're going back. And we're gonna run through. time line of when these girls went missing, that the police are pretty certain brown heads to do it yeah. This is where we're going in where we talked about a little bit different than our normal format. Yeah we're doing it a little bit backwards, but we almost had to because of the stress in way that his

murders are discovered. I mean he's almost likes. hey here. I did this and in a very strange way, catherine remains- would be discovered by a hunter on october, sixteenth nineteen. Eighty and this is what brown says. He says that he met the girl now He only knew yours, but he didn't know a real name, but it was corroborated that she went by fuzzy. He met her at uncle albert's chicken stand offered her a ride and a place to stay. He ends up taking her to his mother's house and they have sex what he claims is consensual, but after that he ends up strangling her with leather shoelaces. and when he says that he puts her body in the trunk of his car, any dumps her offer bridge into account.

near Montgomery louisiana. So some of these early murders gibbs these were people that were in his home town. Some lived very, close to him and the murders were never solve until you know he starts giving details. Details now he's not going to be convicted of the murder of fuzzy and in fact, he's only going to be convicted of one and we'll talk about a little later, but I do want to throw that out there. Is it because the only find skeleton remains and not an actual body that would have any type of evidence on it. I think you're on

something I I just don't think they have enough evidence in general. You know beyond what he's telling them they don't have the evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what I think, and you make a good point. You know the remains that they found were skeletal. It's not going to tell you probably a lot about how she died because she was strangled. So the next person we have to talk about is faye self, and she too was from croatia twenty six years old five foot to a hundred pounds gives we go back to the beginning We were talking about browns wives, they all fell in this type of range characteristic wise. And you mention that, while that's his time was this type. There seems like it. think you were. You are right on the money about that, so faint

appeared on march, thirtieth knights and eighty three and gives her remains would never be found and she would ultimately be declared dad and ninety one and the very interesting thing about this situation is that Faye lived in an apartment complex. That was, owned by robert browns brother and Robert also lived in the apartment complex in a building that was right next to hers. now. What he would tell investigators is that he met face at a bar called out his wagon wheel, but he'd later entered her part? and drew and unlocked door. He took a rag soaked in chloroform placed it over her nose and mouth, but it wasn't really chloroform gibbs

What it really was was some type of commercial aunt killer is was few different things you can use for sure, but it must have done job because it knocked her out. He goes, leaves and gets rope ties her up. He ends up having sex with her. while she's tied up, but she is up die now. What brown thinks is that he used to much chloroform? I think she died from this aid killer sounds like it, so he comes back into the apartment. Gets the body puts her in the trunk, car and again disposes of the body off of a bridge in nearby river, and we talked a lot at this unsolved. There are a lot of rivers in Louisiana that make for good places to dispose of bodies, and you also got gators and a lot of gators. So the next person we have to talk about gibbs is Wanda Faye, hudson

so from true shot a twenty years old, five, six hundred twenty five pounds normally, I would not read off the statistics like that, but the reason that I put it in is just to show that he had a tight. He stocking these women now he said that these were all random and they might have been random but is still means he has a time there's no doubt about that gives. When you look at unconsciously, maybe yeah or purposely more per, either way she was also a neighbour and she died from multiple stab wounds, was found on may twenty, eight nineteen, eighty three so again, he's killed several people that were neighbors nobody's, put it together yet, and I don't get that you know

All these people around town shown up medicine, but they can't tired all and what an especially these people and their support, my complex that was owned by his other, because brown was the maintenance man, you would think he would be looked at and wander was the person and we cannot touch on earlier This is the one where he had changed her lock the previous day. and so he returned at night and had the key and again he ends, knocking her out by using what he calls chloroform most likely was. Some kind of aunt kill, but she didn't die from that because he did stab her several times with a screwdriver while and that's brood, let his brutal to think about, I mean be burn or to get stab with anything but a screwdriver. Now he would later tell investigators.

he's recounting all this that this was a spur of the moment killing, but to me gives the facts: don't actually Baghdad up now may it, was a spur of the moment when he what about it when he was changing or locks, but it's me. It's not spur of the moment when. Ok, I got the key, I'm gonna come back the next night, I'm bringing chloroform. That's not to me. That's not spur of the moment. There are some planning the premeditation tat. I don't call that spur of the moment at all. so. The next victim is night. Mendoza am we're out of louisiana. This point we're in sugar, land taxes and night. It was only seventeen years old, five foot tall, ninety five pounds and went missing February second of eighty four and they found or just four days later, and what brown

tell the investigators later on is that key met night at a dance club where she worked as a topless dancer. he says is that they agreed to have sex for money and at this point in texas, gives he's driving this white van that he used in this job, making deliveries for some kind of silk flower colson. And he says he took nine to motel and this mode how was right off of? U s? Fifty nine in houston- and it was not very or from where neither lived and brown says that It have sex and then after that he strangled her. He put her body in a bathtub in the hotel room and he set to dismember her. He cut off her legs up at the thighs Annie cut off her head

again. We talk about this guy killed in a variety of ways. He really did. May you talking about strange. Relations. Stabbings now is in two dismemberment, but has taken it the level well yeah. He hasn't dismembered anybody at so, but what he does with her body is, he puts the pieces into a suitcase and then he walks through the hotel lobby carrying the suit case These body parts inside they couldn't fit all of em in the suit case. So he got out who is ban dump the body parts in the van went back to the room gathered up the rest of the body parts put those in the suit case, I did. That is many times we need it. I don't know how many times did it, but just think about that gives per grossman in to walk around with the suit case.

knowing that it contains the body parts of an individual that you ve just murdered, I'm gonna get. Why did it missus grow? yeah. I know he's trying to get away with the murder. I give you that part, but I'm thinking My head that to him. This is no different than You know you or I checking out of a hotel. We got her bag were put in the trunk and were re we'll get ready. Hall was like you, a crime con when you took all those taos and the nice Yeah, you know he put him in your bag out to your car and your truck, I mean, and alone went back and got the rest of em, but it's just that thought that to him This is nothing more than that Shows you how literally values but human human life. Here I absolutely agree with you. So it takes the body parts, to a field and sugar land and dump them and then

days later, there's a man who is searching for his hubcap that blown off his car and he's out in the field lookin for this hubcap and he stumbled upon these body parts. Can you imagine not Say I mean so. This is a person that has normal types of feelings. Gibbs mean this would devastate somebody. I would think I think you saw cut off agar had. I think it would freak the shit out of the air, so the next big dumb. We need to talk about melody and bush she was also from sugar land. Twenty two years old nine hundred twenty pounds. She was I seen somewhere around march eighteenth into march nineteen nineteen. Eighty four witnesses would say that she was barefoot, she was had been drinking, she was intoxicated and she walked out

a place called the stag bar. Nobody ever saw her again. She was declared missing march. Thirty of and they would find her body and a covert. Long. The highway that very same day just north of a place called flat tonia and at the time gives authorities they couldn't figure out what it, killed her and then they did the autopsy and the autopsy comes back enlist the cause of death as shoot acetone poisoning. Let's take the stuff, my daughter users do you're, no polish, yet the it's exactly what is in no polish remover and I think it's in like paint or mover in and things like that, now. What happens early on in this investigation is that they start to look at her husband, Robert, because I guess they had both been drinking that night. gather they got in an argument, but they can never come with any evidence that tied robert to the murder. Now,

brow would say is that he was staying at the sight, hotel as melody, and he gave her a ride back to the hotel after she had gotten into this fight with her husband. this is good. So you got what, when assessing the husband and wife fighting against, shows up murdered so they go after him art. I would think yeah, because he's the last person witnesses see her with yeah. He is her husband. We know that you know a lot of times. That's the first person that looked at brown says that they go to his room. They have sex and again he always talks about it being consensual. Now whether it was or not, I don't know, but he makes a point when he talks to investigators to stress that the set

in all these encounters was consensual, but I dunno how it was gibbs cause. We talked about it earlier. He tied one of these. Ladies up, that's not consensual! No and again brown says that he placed some kind of add over her nose and mouth and then he stabbed on the chest with an ice pick nice guy. But I think that's where you get the autopsy report about the acetone. Rights of whatever he put on the rag cause that to get into her system, but you would think it would have been pretty easy to tell that she was stabbed in the chest nice pair so that had to have been on the autopsy report for his well. You think so. Gibbs now want to talk about, rose seo, sparing he was from. Colorado springs colorado, so we on from Louisiana he's moved a texas. Now

up in the colorado, she was only fifteen years old, five, four hundred and four pounds, but at the time she was married to a soldier, and she had a daughter. She was last seen in colorado, springs november, tenth, nineteen, eighty seven driving agree. And why pontiac grandma? now mentioned her husband was a soldier he was stationed at fort carson, but at the time he had taken their daughter and was visiting family in florida. She alternately gets reported missing on november fifth, he's. An her remains were never found so now brown comes in and he's telling the investigators that role c, o came in to this convenience. Where, where he was working and they would talk- and she was telling him about some of the thing that were going on with the family. I guess her and her husband were getting along

that well, and he told investigators that she said tat. Her husband was out of town with her daughter, she was all alone and she actually agreed to go to the movies. With her brown says that they go to the movies and then, after that, back to his apartment, they have sex. He strangled her, puts her body in the bathtub an dismember sir, and this time he does it at the joint. But he takes all of the body. Parts puts them in trash bags and then put some in the dumpster, but and his apart, while not what he would tell em vesta gaiters is that he knew that the pick up schedule was the very next day and that's why he felt comfortable putting the body parts in the dumpster does

Do they weren't going to be there very long now one thing we have to talk about gibbs Rocio. She was supposed to pick her husband up at the airport for he was flying back in with their daughter from florida, and she never shows up. So the husband goes to the apartment. There is no sign of his wife, who was the first person that police is gonna, look at the husband, and in this case they re- we do and it changes his life because he's a suspect or, let's say, he suspected of this murder all the way up until the time that brown comes forward with this information. You have that living your life with all of these people. Thinking that you probably killed wife. Then you have your baby girl growing up wonder

whether or not her father murdered her mother Can you imagined that? No no I mean how terrible could that possibly be I mean I, I really feel for this. Guy gibbs, because to be in a situation like that, knowing you had nothing to do with it and your life is essentially, turned upside down: ruined yeah over something that somebody else did does not somebody comes, later say. Oh man, I feel bad that I thought yeah. You were always right and we didn't believe in this at the red buttons. You can restart your life and you know it doesn't work that way This is the murder that brown would ultimately plead guilty. Two and two thousand sex

and he would get another life sentence on top of the one that he already had, and the reason why this was important b is because we talked about the fact that they had taken off the death penalty in the heather church case, and they were desperately trying to get m on another cow of murder, just in case any went wrong. Let's say in one of the appeal, goals or gibbs. Anything like that in the first one year they wouldn't contingency plan yet the last thing in the world they wanted was this guy on the street. They knew he was a bad guy. It was the matter of getting enough evidence to pin something on it. So there one more gibbs that we have to talk about that police our investigators are pretty confident about, and this is lisa low in this actually happened in west Memphis.

arkansas and ninety ninety one Twenty one years old, five foot tall hundred twenty five pounds so get every one of these women that we ve listed. They have been so. similar. Now some have been a little taller period, a toss, one of five foot nigh yeah, but wait wise. Yet they have been, such a small range, it's it's eerie about what his type, what so she's report and missing november. Third, ninety one her body would be discovered november twenty six, ninety one and at the time they couldn't determine her cause it. LISA last known whereabouts- center around her leaving her boyfriend's house and head in to memphis to go to a nightclub. Now

I would say that this is where he met her and the two of them would leave the night club drive to can saw to wooded area right, The highway and brown said is that she performed oral sex on him. And that he strangled her afterwards aims, fuzzy on this one cause he thought he may have shot her as well. He would lead or dump her body in the saint Francis river, but that's a lot of women and that's a lot of cold cases, really only the perry case is officially solved, he's convict he got convicted of that. But you have to think that I want a cot closure gibbs, but some type of comfort in just the knowledge. Maybe of what Ben to some of these people for their families, dare I say so

you mean rat rather not knowing it all. I think that's the worst thing not knowing yummy years and years and years. Well, it's it's horrible that it happened. Obviously, but then and not know exactly what happened and to or to not know who was responsible for it. That has to be that's another kind of hell, so gibbs as we start to wrap up. I want to talk a little bit about How brown was able to get away with some of these murders, regardless? What the number is right. We're never gonna know the real number, but my thought is: is it's probably pretty high weather nineteen or whether its forty eight, it's it's a big number It is, and I think it's higher than the nineteen I did to honestly the investigators come out and they talk about all the different ways that they used to track criminals,

and you're. One of them is by using credit and job history and things like that. Right took to pin down some ones timeline, where they were at at some certain point in time. The problem with robert brown is that He was travelling a lot back and forth in some of these delivery, tight jobs, it he had if you're travelling a lot from one place to the other and in the case a brown he stopping at a hotel he's going to these bars giving him an opportunity, far away im home in some cases to target people and women in particular kind of makes for a successful killer if you're more mobile, oh there's, no doubt I mean kind of like Forests are. Recording. We were gonna of talking about the success rate of a serial killer depends

our mobile. They are, I think, in a moderate way. I think it has lot to do with it, because if you look back at some of the people we profile gibbs israel keys and now he was mobile in a different way. yeah it was extreme mobile that was extreme mobility, yeah tommy lynn sells was hopping all over state to state. There is no doubt that that makes it harder to track these people. to pin them down to certain locations at certain times. Now, when brown would talk about hidden college trolling, he called it for opportunities and amusing. My air quota have asked them in a while ago, up her pretty high, so he that's what he called when he was out looking for victims looking for opportunities and that day could probably say that about a lot of serial killers right when the opportune de arises. They sees it, but him being a truck driver. You know it s. A delivery driver and things like that. The age in the convenience of

I think it s the other thing that investigators thought was that he never spent much time with his victims. A lot of these things that we're talking about he may have picked them up at a ball but he ends up killing them that night very quickly. from have that. You know relationship with them right, so what it does a lot of things limits, the amount of time that people have to see you with them. You connect you with them things like that. One more thing that the investigators really talked about a lot was that how adept robber brown was at disposing of bodies. That was something that they they really thought.

Aided him and his ability to get away with what he did for such a long time. At one point, an investigator was asking him in prison about basically about how he did what he did. How did he go? bout it and he told the investigator that he never went looking for any one, and this goes back to opportunity. He just waited for an opportunity to present itself and that's when he strike, so the investigator says so ever had a plan ever and he says no never but gives there's no doubt that robber brown was a monster, regardless of what the ultimate number turns out to be. But when you hear some of the cold case,

Investigators talk about brown, one of em actually said you know, he's very intelligent, very respectful. He never casas and he's always courteous recipes for the podcast out right. Why is the word? Yes, we use the word courteous and he's provided them with extensive details on a lot of these murders enough, so that they they believed that he committed whatever the number is I get what you say and I just have a hard time. Thinking of polite and courteous, but yet a monster I mean the sky was truly a monster eat. I go back to somebody like. monday. Your bundy had aside the ham. That was, you All smiles fresh face friendly, and how did Robert brown

Who was no bundy limitation and the area of looks? How was he able to engage all of these women now, if really was consensual. Yes, air quotes again I guess we I am he's, never quotes cause he's as it is, but we don't know that right down. to me that he either a very smooth talker or how the manner or way about him where he was able to disarm where men are charm them or whatever was or he got The whole of on data like what he wanted to do. His temper, which we knew was quick to ignite dead, and he strangled, armor, stabbed him or whatever after sexually assaulted them and then fur. kicks? He said. Oh let memory well, and I think that something that you can never know right, so

it could be telling the truth about the fact that he killed these women. He could be telling the truth about how he killed them and what he could be doing is lying about the part before it right and making him. Out to look better than what he really is right. He doesn't want to come out and say I abducted Some body and I sexually assaulted them right so that that whole part could be a lie. I don't know, but that some of that stuff- you know, I just don't know, there's any way that you could ever know it now, but that's a case of robert Charles brown, charlie yeah gibbs, likes to call calling charlie brown an unbelievably bad guy may even gives if he only committed the to the guy's. A monster, but I picked a number so much how I agree. I I think it's north of thirty yeah. I I think it's so much higher, but you know

unbelievable monster that I really didn't know much about. This is not a guy that I had heard of about he's, not one that I think you hear a lot of people talking about. So I thought I was pretty interesting. So gives before we go, we have a couple of voice. Miles was check. Those out a mighty and give me this is man. I live in new albany ohio, but I'm actually an altar high school grad just want to call and say I love the podcast. The guys were actually the first podcast I started listening to they'll coming from what used to be a new rome, ohio that will be given for unsolved, or maybe the lewington brothers are twenty cavalry killers for to crime I look forward to it because my reaction, start Sunday night, so further highlight the idea to listen to it were things like he regarded at work a lot that voicemail manner

there is right down the road and albany aegis when our hour and a half, maybe they're not too far. So we shit that will look into those cases. I don't think I've ever heard of the wanna. No definite put them on yet sounds interesting again wanting I am I I usually you're all and I have just been listening for the past few days work. For he about what you howard it'll, keep out of the great Look for the hearing more firmly on the ground again, like Michael from all. Thank you. Again so much. We appreciate that in any body, knows me knows much. I love kentucky, go wildcats a kind of thinking and, moreover, team gimme person, you think I think so, smart beating fergie though after she finds out how much I love the wildcat yeah, but my family grew up in kentucky so to mine, yeah, but my grip on closer to megan

anyway mega. We appreciate it fourteen hours straight, who that's girls like having gibbey in your lap, where we read that I gibbs that is it for another episode of true crime, all the time so, for my gibbey stay say: and keep your own time taking the.

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