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The following is taken from letters to John Paul Faye from Arthur Shaw, cross, written behind prison walls. Hello, John, you can call me are, if you want, the stationary you chose is quite good, remind. We have someone. I knew one time tied up line folded and gagged, is good, Legs would not be tied, Why open I like blondes, brunettes, redheads or whatever, but I am choosy in the type I crave.

but at times I lose control, and it's as if I made a snuff film you forgot to mention a saw to my specialty is the key hole saw. It's what I used on three victims, then you have the jigsaw. Real handy, o j didn't kill Nicole, his friend did think about He also had a white bronco, very strange. It was rid of right away. So you tell me something worth looking into. John, if you want a woman for the winter pull one of the homeless, she will get inside all winter. Then in the spring, let her go. I've been there all winter, with two women in the apartment, what tastes better than pork,

Jeffrey Dahmer was into eating and torturing his homosexual partnerships. As for me, I only eight certain parts, quite tasty at that dont need salt either at gains last victim was just about. One of mine, but not tied up mine, was laying back legs open with a silly grin honour, mug. John the saw man. for human, no matter what color looks the same after their skin, you go to southern cow, stay away from any earthquake, section

Aids lets you and I waste some more odds, be cool pow, don't hurt anyone at least don't get caught at it. Gotta go pow good day, Anna maria step in age. Twenty seven was an amazing, aided sex worker who took two working the streets to support a drug habit She was last seen alive on Saturday July, eighth, nineteen, eighty nine, while walking along Lyle avenue, arthur shaw cross, had met her by the princess restaurant on lake avenue and he walked with her to the back of the war. I'm so he then drove her down to the driving park enduring oral sex. He grabbed her throat and said

angled her before rolling her body over the edge of the Genesee river gorge. It is replied did. This she was frustrated after arthur could not get an erection after forty minutes. It's also alleged this. She threatened to tell the police this. She had seen arthur shaw cross with darcy. Remember she was the victim that we Sk, yesterday, Anna maria body was found on Sunday september, eleventh nineteen. Eighty eight, this is by hector maldonado, while he was searching for returnable bottles so that he could save up some money to buy cigarettes, the victim was lying on her left side, curled in a semi fetal position, a pair of calvin klein genes, were pulled down around the ankles and turned inside out a white tank top with red shoulder. Straps was wrapped around the right wrist and a clump of hair had been ripped from the skull. The eyes were missing from their sockets. Now, just

Three weeks later, on Saturday July, twenty nine nineteen, eighty nine dorothy keller- this was supposedly shaw across his friend- would be his third victim. Now she was different from the first two in the sense that she was not a sex workers. She was a fifty eight year old. And she was homeless. Aunt shaw across had met dorothy. Why, when she worked as a waitress in a diner that he had gone to the two struck up, a friendship which had quickly turned into an affair on an afternoon this was on his way to fish in the river he stopped when he saw keller to speak, with her when she found out where he was going. She asked if he could take her with him and he agreed according

de shaw cross. They spent the morning fishing and making love until around mid day when it started to rain. But then she live with them at some point, I believe so there there there were a couple people that Shaw cross had affairs with, or so he would later claim because we have this individual here- that would end up a murder victim that they can't tell us otherwise and one thing that I think that we're going to see here with shawl cross is seems to be a reason for most of these murders, or at least a reason that he has made up his mind. You know either, though the woman made fun, him or bit hammer assaulted, hammer tried to rob him and therefore he lost control and decided to kill them and with dorothy. The interview than I saw arthur was saying that door they lived with him and that he also paid her. Some weird amount like four dollars and thirty

sense or somethin to clean the apartment yeah. He would claim that there was a couple things that sent him into a rage. You know there Huddling together in this crude shelter that shaw cross put together while it rains out there and he states it their huddling together. They get into some kind of argument and it starts off with an argument about her stealing money and then it turn into their arguing about his relationships that he has with rose and with clara. He claimed that she started to threaten him telling. saying that she was going to tell the other women about their affair, and this is when Arthur shaw, cross became angry? He picked up. A small logging beat her on the side of the head until he killed her. out. He he hid her body under a fallen tree, and then he went home

body was found on october, twenty first, but he later told police. Then at one time he had written, turn to the spot several months later and remove the skull and dumped it in the river and in the interview I saw they said, how did you remove the scar? He said you just do you just do yeah? He doesn't have that big of a accent but yeah sound, better santa My head on Friday september, twenty nine nineteen, eighty nine patricia ives. This was a another lake avenue sex Her also known as crazy patty. She was twenty five years, at the time drug dependent, a high school dropout, she did have a baby, a young child who had been placed him. Foster care. Some say that she wants Was a very attractive woman? Did she she used to bear

or of a resemblance to the film star Julia roberts, but by this point, because the drugs had taken their tall and she was a bit of a walking skeleton she had ragged in it unkempt hair and she also had needle marks from her elbows to her fingers sam. It was also believed that she might have had the aids virus now are arthur shaw cross claims that she offered him sex for twenty five dollars when he I the same diner where Dorothy Keller had worked. He agreed to this and they went to a construction, eight, while there and while having sex shaw cross, says that he caught ives trying to remove his wallet and pushed her hard against the ground. She began to cry and he raped her and began to strangle her until she didn't move,

many more Sha ka said that there were children playing near by any states that I put my hand over her mouth and held her nose. She didn't struggle. She didn't holler. She didn't fight That he knew her and that patty had been in the company of a white male who was writing a bike with balloon tyres. There were fishing rods, protruding from the cycles. Rear basket, patty was reported missing the following day by her pimp, slash boyfriend who, on the street went by the name, get get ready for this and when I went aim, is the pimps name. Yes, rat face billy, you can't make the stuff up until now. who's. Your boyfriend. Oh, you know old rat face a pet wishing, laugh pot

these body was found by children who were looking for a loss baseball on Friday october, twenty seventh, when they saw a foot sticking out from a pile of flattened card board. The corpse was clothed in black pants and a sweatshirt lying face up and a wedding and was missing from her finger. There were no shoes or socks on the body and maggots head devoured, most of the flesh on october, one Third, nineteen, eighty nine june start was thirty years old was the youngest of eight children. She was homeless. She apparently heard mysterious voice. is in her head and had been taken to sleep being on lisle avenue. Now, she's she's different in a sense that she's not a sex workers, we're a drug addict. This is something that you and I have spoke about before on our little show here. Our little garage show that taking care of people that have mental health issues

yeah, but I mean I also think we have issues with know trying to take care of. You know the sex workers. I mean whether it's you know should be legal or shouldn't be legal. I mean we have to do a better job. Why only point that out here, because from everything I could gather, it appears that this young woman was simply homeless because of of the problem she had in it wasn't due to drugs or any of that nature that she's simply needed to be taken care of and didn't have any one to help her with this now shaw cross. You know this is this is what We will see time and time again from four monsters like shaw cross. They will find somebody they will come across. Somebody with the let's say what he He would determine to be a weakness and he's going to prey upon that person and make them further victimized them because he hell yeah he's gonna talker ain't, a goin fishing with them, which we know is a bad thing

well in when they're down by the water he's trying to talk her into having sex with with him refuses? And he says this is when he decided to strangle her. Two days later. He returned to the body and he dragged it down into the theirs. area there with those large cat tails he drew the body there and using a knife he cut open, her body from the breast bone to the crotch. He then gutted her like a fish using his words throwing the end trails into the river, thursday november hold on. I just want to point out that in view I watch on him. He claims that this attack happened and he didn't leave, who was there all day and that he actually cut her open beforehand, but now, returning to the body

right now, that's what he claims now. The only reason why I bring that up is that you see a lot of times in his stories now he's either misremembering or he's making stuff. Up correctly. yeah and on thursday november twenty third, a man walking his dog. He noticed an ice covered object. It was a piece of carpet under which was the badly decomposed body of june start. The corpse was face down, but levity staining this she had been rolled over long after death. The right leg was bent in word at the knee: elevating the buttocks and suggesting the possibility of intercourse after death, with the body The vagina was missing from the body and Arthur Shaw cross later said that he had eight it yeah and wireless. A graphic show

but law enforcement are now well aware that they're looking for a serial killer. Well, that's kind of a unique situation. I guess in this That's not always the case. You know. Sometimes they arrest a guy for a murder and then later find out that he's guilty of three or four or five here. We have enough of a consistency and victims and how often they are finding these victims that they well aware that they're, probably looking for their at least looking for a serial killer, its undetermined. If all of these are connected to the same guy or not, yes,

They actually had a couple of sting operations that they set up and having police officers go under cover and because you know, a lot of these victims were sex workers, so they were trying to. You know figure this out now what arthur talks about in his interview as that he used to hang on at dunkin donuts, and he happened to be wearing like for whatever reason he says some very shiny shoes, and so when these officers were in there talking about this stuff that they kind of just assumed because of his shiny shoes, that he was law enforcement, okay, but none of them were dressed in uniform, so they started talking about how they're, trying to run the sting operation and basically by just being at that doughnut shop. He'd learned

There's plenty a bunch of contracts out there with the don't shut, but he learn all the decoys, and so he could stay away from right right. He would he would over here these officers talking about their investigation at times he was even speaking with them and if he were a regular in several dinars and coffee shops, and this allowed him access to those individuals. Now there were several victims and the course of november of nineteen. Eighty nine marie welsh francis brown, there's one that I do want to talk about. In particular, this is a story from early november nineteen, eighty nine, a m, by the name of Joanne Van Nostrand, told police about a client named mitch, a guy that called himself mitch who had paid her to play dead. The man also I to strangle her, she pulled a knife on him and fought him off. This was the,

first real led the investigators received. It was the second time that the man with the same physical description named either mike or mitch, had been mentioned in reference to the murders interview with many of the little street sex workers, indicated that he a regular and that he had the reputation of being violent with the women Elizabeth Gibson was all one of his victims. Yes, she was last seen working the streets on lyle avenue on Saturday november, twenty fifth, her body was found just to day later by a deer hunter walking, through the woods now at this crime scene, police discovered are your impressions in the muddy ground and they also discovered blue paint chips, where a vehicle had scraped a tree. Now this paint with

later be matched to Claire's blue dodge omni. This was, of course, a vehicle that shaw cross, often borrowed the his ninth victim or believed to be. Ninth victim was darlene trippy aged thirty two. She was last seen alive by her sister on food they December fifteenth. It wasn't until after his arrest, the shock cross was able to direct police to darlings frozen body, I want to point out something, though, here captain we were seeing a frequency to this, aren't we I mean we're talking about multiple victims and in the same month we're talking about what, they would later say. Probably eleven victims is what we're looking at, as is pretty much a certainty. Pre Thirdly, more victims were involved in this series that were not enough

who did in his later convictions, possibly but we're seeing we're seeing what we ve seen from time to time before you know when we discussed ted Bundy or the green river killer, where you see a guy that huh Is this capability that has murder on his mind, who is appear solemn have spiral out of control to the point where he's murdering two three people a month, talk about how old noodle dick is caught. Well, so the instigation, kind of works like this. We have most of the victims were sex workers who worked in the red light district of lake in life. Avenues. The women were either strangled or beaten to death and each was disposed of naked or partially clothe around the city and close to or in water. Most of the victims had debris, stuffed into their ears knows and other body cavity.

Their clothes were often found neatly folded or close to the corpses, which ranged in de composition from skeletal to preserved. In several instances, the body exhibited signs of having been partially eaten by wild animals or cannibalized by the killer himself recognised these patterns, the rochester police, doubled the size of its physical crimes. Unit round the clock, surveillance by rochester peaty tactical unit focused attention on the red light, did rick, where many of the victims were last seen to be alive. The services of the fbi profiles were called upon to complete a psychological profile of the serial killer. The successful capture of arthur J Shaw cross was due to an equal combination of good luck.

in dogged police work. Ultimately, though, it was the mindset of this psychopath, they ultimately sealed his fate. One of shaw across his last victims was june cicero. She was aged thirty, for she was a strong character with a drug habit. She had arrived in rochester from brooklyn, new york and nineteen. Seventy three and she been well known on the streets of rochester, where she is regarded as something of a mother figure to many of the younger women who operated in the red light district to as a pistol yes june, suddenly disappeared without a trace from the red light district. This was on the late evening of sunday December seventeen nineteen eighty nigh now, where this comes into play here. Captain is a police helicopter crew spotted her frozen corpse lying in the icy, so when creek on Wednesday january third nineteen ninety

the body was naked, except for a white sweater and white socks. Arthur Shaw cross was seen standing. on a nearby bridge by the same helicopter and he was seen drop something into the creek before driving off in the vehicle. It was this incident that would later led to his arrest, while this is kind of confusing, so the body was found on the third and what we think based offer ports is on the fourth as when they would see him that cause it. What what law enforcement started to understand who ever committing these murders is gone back to the scene so that he probably polly dumper body before that

Third, she was found on the third. Probably the fourth is when he is caught, which, in my reports he is urinating on the bridge. Some have speculated that he was masturbating on the bridge. Well, and I think I think in regards to that captain they couldn't determine what it was he was doing. I think they could determine the possibly his pants were down or his fly was unsapped down and then so I think they ended up pulling them over well. What what they ultimately end up doing is the vehicle that he is in that night they're able to trace that vehicle and they they trace that vehicle back to him in a sense that they connected to him because, It belongs to one of the women that he seeing remember my taking turns driving his wife's car and his girlfriend car from time to time to pick up these women to commit these murders. Well, when they traces vehicle.

act to him. It doesn't take long for them to run his his background and figure out that this dude has murdered. People in the past he's been convicted of one murder and what they decide to do. Is they decide to Ok, he claims that he had no involvement in any of this. However, there going to give him the night to rest but they're going to observe him they're going to surveyed him. They're gonna keep him under their watchful eye early that next more is when they take him down to the police headquarters. One thing that the detectives it spoke to arthur shawl cross in here is questioning or interrogation whatever you want to call it. This was not fbi agents, these were local detectives and they kind of picked up on some personality traits of arthur Shawcross, very

quickly and speaking with him one. They found that he was a talker. He did he liked to talk that he liked to open up. If you kept him comfortable, he would keep speaking to you. the other thing he seemed to want to ever trust a talker, He seemed to want to be their friends in some kind. weird way, even though he was denying all their claims, he seemed to be want. Wanting to their friends in the sense that you wanted to open up to them They use the tactic that I found pretty interesting, which is a little bit weird, because this guy has got no soul. My friend, this guy has got no conscious. This guy does not. About human beings or life in general even said has interview. I am no remorse guess what do. Is they start saying? Look we don't want it. You need to face up to these murders because we don't want anybody else to get in trouble for this and what they meant was ok

using your wife's car to commit these murders you're using your girlfriend's car to commit these murders. Those two one of The two are both had to know what you are up to one of those two or both may be we're helping. You commit these murders, yeah and he simply does said, and after hours and hours of them questioning him and things coming at him as what he said yeah, as he just got tired of so this confessed yeah, and so he confessed to the murders, not all of the series. we have at the time. I believe it was fourteen or fifteen murders and total that they had a question about he with later confessed to many of them, actually leading them to a couple of the bodies that had been undiscovered at that time, but it was just indecision or of nineteen. Ninety, when arthur Shaw cross was convicted of killing ten women after jurors decided

was sane and deliberated for only six and a half hours. The judge sentence him to twenty five years for each count. A total of two hundred fifty years imprisonment a few months later shock I was taken to wane county and tried for Elizabeth gibsons murder rat then claim insanity this time he pledged guilty and received a further life since want to learn a new language this year, razetta stone makes it easy to get started and they'll create a learning plan for you that keeps you on track. Razetta stone has been the export and language learning. For thirty years, helping millions of people build the fluids in confidence to speak new languages, razetta stone offers anti five languages from spanish to chinese to polish, with the regime

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Pain in his leg on the afternoon of november tenth, two thousand and eight he was taken to albany medical center, where he went into cardiac arrest. Are their shaw cross died that evening, at nine fifty p m he was cremated and later his ashes were given to his daughter now before his death. There was a relationship that Arthur shaw, cross, developed, a pen, pow relationship with a man named John Paul Faye, and Earlier this year a book came out called these shaw cross letters which gives an inside look at arthur shaw across one of america's most notorious serial killers The shock cross letters is a graphic and dramatic, true crime book that will horrify enlightened and keep you up. At night, author Brian whitney teamed up with John Paul Faye to write this book,

to show us what happens when one of the most evil men in the history of america meets a man? He trusts enough to share his darkest secrets with. and on the phone with us here in the garage is John Paul Faye, the man that was pen pals with convicted serial killer, arthur shock now John this kind of interesting because arthur actually reach out to you, you didn't. I should reach out to him. Well personally, reach out to me. and initially I was telling some of his artwork on Ebay back then you could solve the murder Amelia and I ended up with his artwork through interesting phrase. I did with the fans of his are quote: unquote: boobies and I used to sell very video tapes and that type of thing like uncut, horror, movies, and so when I got those drawings and I decided to resold them and an arthur, discovered this and he ended up getting my address from one of his friends believe it or not, but I was promised a traded

and one day I went to the mailbox- and there was the water from the Sullivan correctional facility, arthur Shawcross and, of course, the first time I was a bit taken aback. I went to a quiet spot to read the letter way from my so called friends numbers, and he mentioned how he knew I was selling some of his artwork and all this stuff and I wasn't sure, one hundred ticket initially, you know I, ah you know if I should feel threatened, but I I just collected self, and I warn back a letter. It was a very. Gentlemen. We letters no no problems. I just set out if you could do more drawings, basically how we could do this, but the policies and wholesome there and so he got back to me and I'm so sure that basically that's a great idea. Let's go ahead with that, and so Are you sure you do not? Work for warning should result in sports, but that we must, no money order, so low wages. We developed a friendship from there and it became very closely. I hate to say it. I only I saw him the kind of father because

My all my life has been so twisted as far as our meal role. Models quote unquote. Just got strange, always me some teeth on the label, that's a of thing. But that's where I live anyway, always are: then a very kind of twisted dark character myself. They suddenly lost, when I say a jeffrey down, we're going to do a two point old dahmer. If you a writer, I think, but of course I I've come a very close just engaging in those activities myself, but I mean I think that that's true the summary all right, so you did hear that correctly. You probably I only go on what I'm more the Jeffrey Dahmer type. What is John talking about while so he gets some items from arthur and he's selling them on Ebay and then arthur reaches out to him, and he says hey. If you draw some more drawings, I can sell these n as they're. Communicating back forth John opens up top to

arthur and says: hey man, I got some dark thoughts that I have yeah. It sounds like John, you know, has a troubled past and a possibly troubled childhood, and that we can ask more question. Is about, but this leading to alcoholism. Some drug use answer very dark fantasies to which he's going to confide his thoughts and feelings. With this monster, arthur shock rosters, reached out to him so John, you say that a friendship developed between you and Shaw cross out during the court of this friendship in the beginning stages was simply just business as usual for shawl cross, or was he trying to manipulate you or use you in any way? Now when it was our part business men are finally once he figured out what time perceval. First,

I was- and I did explain that no letter that I you know- I really had a similar position psychologically. Then he loosened up and he got very friendly. after that. Many long after I stop selling is our work because they bandit long ago and have even there was before we got into the bottle for those there will be just a. There was a letter about every two weeks and he didn't present himself as a celebrity. He was just out like a friend and we just started some strange topics in regards to a cannibalism, my own and ah there's just one stuff. Oh yes, I mean you know I'll see I I will come on everything. Agree on what he did, but I certainly I understand it as far as identifying with or last

it'll tell us it'd be more along the lines of a donald is a chance for company. That's been a part of shawcross yourself. I consider this more of a destroyer. He was more like a kind of human terminator. but for some reason we just hit it off it was. It was the answer way beyond the business that those actually a small portion of it relationship just again, just like your friends talking him in all the beer or something I think a man, the colonel, have different conversations and ewan arthur had John. Did this Go beyond just letters. Did you ever go meet him in person, he ah, that that was kind of a a contentious deal there, because a towards the end of our relationship, because I smoke as opposed to going to eat him up in new york and I have just come back from arizona, investing in a low budget movie and kind of exhausted my fun. So I was going to take a little while before I can get up there. So when I I'm telling you I was going to visit, he thought I was going to be right away, so he said. Well, I thought I thought you said you were going to visit and he's angry about the

they said he will just a month or so that my funds, but that there are things, started falling apart after that it was the end of our relationship. He was upset that I didn't get to visit him. He thought I was gonna want to see him a lot sooner. Alright, so shawcross and son of sam were actually in the same prison together yeah and I heard that arthur Shawcross actually I despised David Berkowitz, the son of sam, did he ever mention that to you John, I resented them yeah the money that burke was making and money that he did not make sure our garage area. It was just the resentment that the Berkowitz was all the more popular a lot more fun funding yeah. So he could talk about her over. the years there have been several books written about arthur shock grass and many newspaper magazine articles was shot cross, keeping tabs on what was written about him. Was he

reading his own material yeah. Absolutely the ethical you did a lot of reading a gal, buddy death. I kept up one, I don't trust in them, but our books, written about him, yes did shall cross ever mentioned the book, the misbegotten son by jack off. yeah yeah, I'm a now. Actually, yes, the admission jackals, no time to actually be sent me an like with the jackals and return address on heart truck was signed in alsace. Actually I have a new envelope here with the jackals for address on it or not, not that I'm thinking of a john did arthur ever: ask you about females in your life, maybe your mother, sister girlfriend or somebody I once in a while ask what you want in my life as far as a female's like a union for the most part are not isolated. You know you're asked about my a cousin michelle, for instance, and ah, who was actually out for a period of pregnant at the time, and he would a

joke about that say. For instance, I never mentioned my mother or sister or anything, but uh yeah. Definitely like the the focus was on my pregnant cousin metallica. Did he ever ask you to send him danes or pictures of these women just picture of her brightness, basically what she is again a copy of it I followed my cousin Michel were drawn is a familiar the time, but how those old mortal comedy search. Really do you ask you to send him anything anything weird or anything that would be considered contraband requested. I think I sent on staff, but they confiscated after tat he never directly requested. I think that it is not become their rights, are worn out of asking about that powder John after you told shawl cross about some of your darker fantasies

You feel like he ever tried to manipulate you or send you encrypted messages to kind of points you in the direction or push you over the edge and get you to do some of the horrible things that he has done. I just read between the lines kind of way. You say things like be good or be good at it. You know, and ah we both knew what were talking about there in that regard, and they both are pressure, points out when or how to choke a person properly and along those lines. So yeah you go, the answer is yes, he was trying to teach me or I guess how how to kill it or people yeah, but do you think he was trying to push you in that direction?. He didn't seem to directly want that, but he didn't seem to be against it either a you know. He knew where I was in my life, so he didn't discourage my line of thinking. You know all it almost seemed like he was encouraging it and what are you

it's true or not. He was fucking with or how to pick up hitchhikers and show them. You know beheadings, and you know that's a all that lovely stuff now and then, of course, cannibalism is often a topic of discussion. He and I know how to put it. He he kind of, I guess, instructing me on how to properly cook a human being. for instance yeah yeah, oh yeah, I guess the simple answer is: ah yes, he in his own way, even though he wasn't discouraging me at all. So. Another has spoke about canada, because I'm a lot, because that is one of your dark fantasies.

a lot of times when he aged pieces of people in the raw but other times she mentions they are roasting via the trap. Muscles are over an open flame or indulging in that, and basically it was a focus on like a calf muscles and india. I guess the buttocks of women and particularly hm yeah, so he would. Ah he talked about that quite a bit with me. We went back and forth on half and a high. I you know I I don't necessarily agree again with his. A type of cannibalism because It was more on destruction, cannibalism, me or my interests would be something like you're absorbing the person somebody who has a section for a assimilation. You know a kind of a quick and dirty way to

Whoa a person's soul into your own soul or his was more a I'd, say, barbaric or my mom will be more ritual, and I suppose I mean my interest on. How long did your correspondence go on with arthur shall cross? a little over five years but allow me to use, but it now there's a Article out there that states see you had said at one point in your life arthur shocks, was more of a father figure or maybe even a better father figure to you than you. Own father or males in your life. You ass well ass also through the male figures life in food, one ignorance in our late worse than shook hands, Well, you know, I understand she in a sense anyway. They I mean they abused or abuse me growing astronaut in one way or another, and basically it was just physical and verbal abuse, but are not my

father, he never met only grew up, but his vicious show basically nine years old Natalie but his extremely vicious and aggressive, and then my sorry to father my uncle jerry, you, the little man Are you a vicious and violence? I had no one to really turned you and your ears like five zero sleigh cycle paths and criminals. so I mean it was so bad. I ended up seeing Jacques also uses a lesser evil, as they say. I I got along with them a hell of a lot better than the other male figures in my life. You know so it's a Let go well in John and just to be clear. We are not saying that the shawl crosses a better. a person or a better man than these two individuals were just simply saying that your correspondence with him. He treated you with more respect, maybe kindness and friendship. Then these others have shown. You told us

yeah. That's it that how bad that's what I'm bad, the other men were just to July, that one of the more serious killer, cannibals as well. There are no so my life. What did you know about soft cross before he reached out to you again? I brought my wife. I have been seeking somebody I I could. Ah, I yeah trying to avoid or identify with you know. So I I've been studying a serial killers and a police are called. Since I was nine nine or ten years old. I started with the zodiac killer again, since I was feeling everybody else. I'd always different searching the masters The reason I got an it so I had read by that time. Two thousand I had read a couple bucks about him asked jackals was broken out your nose, the chair.

and ah so I I didn't know about him. I had read a random rant about him and, at the very least, just not seen at least a documentary about them He discovered you because you are selling things on ebay was shot across interested in any of your collections. While he was fascinated with a shotgun had collection with. I would that be collecting a shrunken heads replica, shrunken heads well, one was made out of a real human scale. I look like to ask the question and he was very interested. I don't think the be a question. Selfie didn't seem like much of a collector height, But he was very interested in them. Well that yeah I used to like a shrunken heads and and mummified heads replica, my mama had a yeah. I have since sold them, but the like to start recollecting,

yeah? I did get a hold a real one than the man I saw them through here as a real. Not that one day I got the whole as a little museum and as a capital parlor. When I visited yeah. That was an interesting story very interesting day, those a day for a lotta. First, one can see that some time ago what was your take away from this pen power relationship with the serial killer, the gas, It's a twisted things to say, but I also want, is an accepted. That was the main thing that there was someone out there. Who would accept me. I I guess that that's the bottom line and that's something else other than people's interest in true crime. What are the other reasons to go out and pick up. Your book are not meant it's not my virtuous time and not one

national as much as the largest stock is stagnant at the space of one thing. In this way, this is about a recovery from it, a recovery some I say purging my man or has this type of thinking and a a as long as the addictions to alcohol and drugs. I mean that's what it's about it's about coming out on the other side of this. At the end of it, and if the thing is, if somebody else is having either or if these types of thoughts or addictions, the main thing is, you have to find someone. You trust you can talk to talk about it. You'd have to find a therapeutic way to exercise these diseases. hurting anybody. That's the only thing! That's why you're not just sitting here. Drawing a running the nightly. I realize this without my getting better at the point,

as a food, all almost a one hundred and eighty degree turn almost, maybe just one hundred and thirty zone, but I'm getting there but yeah. This is where I recovered for the most part from a book that the frequency of thought- because I say but yes, that's the thing- is it's really not meant to be, or you know again, some for I'm reveling in the evil. It's not that at all, because this was therapeutic to write a book. This is a therapy, Yeah, you know it's a work out these demons and their diplomatic and filthy away, and I could you know that was the main thing that you know I had to get out of my system, the

Well, of course, captain I recommended reading this week is the shah across letters my journey into the mind of evil by John Paul, Faye and Brian whitney. You can take that up, amazon or wherever books are sold. I want to thank Brian and john for chatting thus in all of our recommended readings, are on our website so check out true cram garage dot, com click on the recommended page, If you're not listening on the stitcher app make sure you download, it will be announcing something very soon about

partner with them on a corporate all right. Well, thank you, captain very exciting stuff and thank you to everybody out there until next time be good, be kind adult life. you can feel confident. Continental is the smart choice and tigers in the handle of streams. Anything for the guy who finds that one pothole made by like a chilean engineer, yeah, really really really really continental available at discount tire.