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the Welcome the true grime garage wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listing, I'm your hosts nick and with me, as always my friend in yours, the good good care. unless you have your pants off, why you're listening and then please pull your pants up before you start the programme. This is a pants on show its

to see you and it's good to be seen I get right into it. We got part two of the black dahlia nix interview with marked from California o dog. And before we get to the case, we gotta crack. Another beer were drinking east bay, ip wanna thank a few friends for keeping the garage fridge full for us this week. Wanna thank LISA and tyler taxes, Stephen em from parts unknown matt, and schmid, hill, new york and canvas and arcadia Florida thanks for Jenin, and if you want to buy us around for next week, show go to true crime garage dot com. You know what to do whose in parts unknown. Stephen em while everybody that donated we lack jumped Gee, that's another, the business captain, let's grab a chair, grab a beer and, let's talk some true cried. She was very and had our whole life out of her own and heard last.

Several hours or you know I will probably horrific to say the very least. Last several days I mean where, where she was when she disappeared from the biltmore to the moment, she was found at six nights. five datasets, also weak shoes held somewhere and there were marks a wrist neck and lower legs to indicate that she didn't bound m, as I don't like to speculate on what happened during that time at one astor here, try to really understand this case of if but here's the thing much is. If somebody took the time to grab the body and to put gasolene on that

the letter or the envelope. You know I keep it did. I have a hard time believing you, but I have a hard time, believing that somebody spent that amount of time in that amount of care and attention to detail that they did then that I would send my my address book with my name on it. Accident who who would be trying to railroad hands or try to to point the finger at him. But you brought up a really good point and it gets around the world have a girl who killed her. It was her keller, always talking singular

more than I don't think it was one person. I definitely think especially from one and has told me that markets and was involved, I dont think necessarily he actually did the murder It's a big topic. A lot of people who prefer to have the saw this case present one killer I don't believe that one person was involved. I do believe best and heart told me that markets and was involved, how much directly or indirectly now and it's gonna be almost impossible to find at this point. mention somebody suddenly address book now. Obviously, if you were going to all this trouble to scrub about clean and evidence. So clear

blocking gasoline to arrest and your prince you're, not gonna put your own address book. What's your name or cancel on it, I've never felt for a second that was melvin by him, fill it with a male dubai somebody else involved and the murder, perhaps a sick joke, perhaps to put mark hansen on the hot seat which it it certainly succeeded there. that makes you asked the question of who was involved with mark handsome alot of people just among the addressing among the suspects in the dispute. Trees twenty or twenty one pops aspects were several doctors, I think about six of them several of them friends with mark handsome. He had a lot of doktor friends, a few stand out, which I want to check further into. One is a doctor, Patrick o reilly, but his story at all.

Patrick o Reilly was ah asked your path arrested and tried in the late thursday, nineteen thirty nine for beating his secretary. I think it was his secretary Go to dinner, came back to his place and bitter and didn't stop beating her and from some reports here he almost killed her to satisfy his sexual urges. I'm I've seen the newspaper reports of this guy and he seems like a real piece of work at one point during the trial a he claimed that he couldn't have. basically done this dating this girl, and that was very severe, not just your face, but her back and everywhere, but he claimed he couldn't have done debating because he wasn't physically able that he had to.

Something wrong with his foot and a shrapnel injury from the war and that part of his breast was removed to his right press, which is kind of strange because part of Elizabeth short's right breast was from a now. Does this mean anything? Maybe not that it is pretty strange. He was a friend of mark hans There was talk. You I'm happy to mention some of this. I read about them apparently, I have good sources, but until I see a piece of paper in the da files or some public record or something back and seeing confirmed myself, I'm hesitant to speculate to these louth is a so I'm not sure where I want to go with that. Ah, but that we, the the general thought, though, is that her a little bit short cause of death was ah that she was beat to death. Does that

Your words. Yet let me read it to you because I mean that's. That's one thing that I find you know a amazing that when you talk to other arm chair detectives about this case, save a lot of them because of what was done. The body after after time of death The whole cause of death gets lost upon them were actually listed by autopsy surgeon. New bar, as emergencies. I've seen the death certificate a copy of it. in short, due to caution of the brain and lacerations interface struck with an unknown instrument lab. That was what he determined to killed her.

I'm some of the injuries to her body were gone a course. She died torture, a summer post mortem. I don't, you know, really want to get into the ins and outs of that, but that's not you. this is very dangerous. I planned out that they had and according to the a lapd psychiatrist a few years ago, I'm this was a saturday. It was very much planned out and rehearsed in the guy's mind and You know the people talk about it being a random girl, some random person, texture about sending built more, that's a serial killer, and that's, I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. There's no evidence of that was so you know you randomly pick up somebody a girl and something like this

the serial killer. There's never been anything like it, since this was and I think it is, I think, a lot of the speculation of that is that the betrayal of who she was and how she conducted herself in and people think you know when they talk about elizabeth short, that Oh, she sounds like the person that would just go along with any any gentleman well in any car, and that's not really. I don't. I find that the beating heart to believe I dont. It is heartening I mean what I read about her: she doesn't she? Yes, she data the lot, maybe chased the uniform a little bit, but I don't see anything that tells me she would happen any car and you have heard a lot of women were, were tracing guys and uniform. At the time I like it was read red man, rent, manly youth. He had said that he is here. Ouch her in yes, china

I'm down, and she wasn't really interested in didn't, want to get in his car, and it took some took some can coaxing on his end to do likewise, She didn't notice. My purse yeah I yearning today today is still got you so that that rate culture attitude that you know men say She you dress provocatively, so she asked for- and that's that's disgusting and its nonsense, and you cannot, you can look at this. Say: oh, she do a lot of men, social prostitute. There's no evidence of that. You can't say that that people keep publishing that garbage in books just because you dave lot of man, I made smile, that they give you a free dinner that doesn't make her lose from format along I'm. As far as I can tell, she was very sweet girl. A lot of people said wonderful things about her. Her mother and aunt said she was very sweet person. I'm

but to fall into something and your some situation into some group of people who do something This is not a land, and I take it, you talk to. Homicide detected any behaviour list any at the high profile. Are they will tell you pretty much cases when there is extensive, facial mutilation, as there was in this case, it's almost given and it's really high percentage that killer and picked knew each other Elizabeth short, absolutely had a relationship and knew the person or persons who killed her. I'm firm on I'm certain of that just because of the psychological, the physical evidence and actually the via circumstantial evidence. This is not around. Law is not arrange; killing it was it was. It was

sexual murderer of the most depraved you can imagine, and it in this this person or persons spent a lot of time her during her death enduring and ask her and is in what was done to her takes time and- and I agree do. I have always felt that whoever, wherever carry this out, knew her and in my thought on that is it for what was done to her. It took somebody that not only had a deep hatred of women in general, but but had a strong, strong hatred for her well getting back to what type of person or persons Could have done this, I'm like I said there are many suspects or that people have put forth a lot of people offer up their fathers. There's a couple of books on that I'm arrogant

that is a many of them- have no evidence that the or their suspect ever met, others for sure. Now with mark hanson- and we know that's quite the opposite- the other thing about embark, Hanson. when he was first tar and crushing by the police he very evasive, never saw other the short after december. Eighth, I never spoke to her. That comes out. He did talk to her from san, diego, oh yeah, and their comes out. She did talk to him than the built more hours before she disappeared you know until they taught him alive, he's not saying anything, Missouri self protective one thing and hoth reported to the da da investigators that, as from the tenth to the fifteenth she was found on the fifteenth, though the five day shoot Nothing mark handsome came home every early, every night pearly. Now she was living with him at that time. Early on!

investigation, the bright baker, s idea, checkmark hansen's house for blood very early on when he was shot. I love the Titus two and a half years later and he was in the hospital. They went and checked his place again for blood and also installed listening devices in his walls. For like eight months now, there were two suspects in this case doctor George hotel, whose still hotels, Prime suspect is steve's father, two suspects, george hotel and mark Hanson were the only ones I know of that had listening devices placed in their homes regarding this case now, or did you happen to see that film a gangster squad Well, it's gonna get some came out three years ago. You know the gangsters Are the lapd special guys in the nineteen forty the one I'm watching and unworthy- and

ruins. Characters are kind, J, J or jack Omar and I'm thinking to, with that name. Why do I know that pain? And I come back here tomorrow in my black dahlia files, my box, and there is of course a folder. title: jack o my enemy, the guy twenty five years whatever I pull it out and I remember you told me a lot of interesting story The whole was the dawn jack sands efforts. It was a mister toad's, wild ride. I call it I can get that into that in a bit, but another thing a jack was involved with, he told me it was a accused gangsters. Squad guys were listening to all of what was being recorded. Listening devices in march hansen's house. Most of it was nothing, but I have my file a quote from jack, that one of these guys.

Said about mark handsome. You apparently had called on could abnormal sexual desires. That was not the first time that came out and came out before. and the da files that here the abnormal sexual preferences, but ever am there's our issues during the nineteen thirties. He used to have know kind of strange kinky. Sex partners at is residence in the the authorities, or whatever I suspect, use them, radar somewhere in there, but we knew we need start putting the pieces together. Courses. Speculation at this point that it makes makes me wonder: alot about mark Hansen and what sort of people. She knew because, as I said before, six months in hollywood. Elizabeth shore is kind of ghana wandering nomadic existence. drifting, daddy, never

a job and there's nothing. with any that done. The total shift and shoe almost run to san diego and I believe she went there. Her reason, maybe is if something they maybe to escape someone, maybe just figure out her life. Maybe a combination. I mean we're we're just speculating at this point I'm, but when she came back she disappears. The last people talk to her new. She was at the door or that night was mark handsome he was very evasive about that to the police. yeah just makes me really all figure seemed appointed him. He had a reason. You know when you're talking means mode of an opportunity. Now you don't, Has had to prove mother than a trial that it certainly helps certainly had a motive. He wanted her.

sexually areas and have said at one point. I want to call them called almost possessor. It's very jealous when she dated anybody else and she'd have to leave the men down the street, because if he, if he saw them it'd, become quite upset, he presented a much different picture of himself and his relationship to the police as if nothing was going on now. Go you you mentioned mention that there were amongst others, the short items that they found afterwards, the she had had in our possession some letters that they were not Did she intended to send or or maybe not intend to send, but they, but she had had letters in her possession it. She do. You know she had letters from anybody

amongst those or when I read in the old accounts or from hansen that come out. I would have heard that that never came out whether the newspaper reports or anybody any reporters. I talked to that worked on the case- and I spoke to quite a few- are on this as far as a love letter, the letters in her belongings after she was murdered There were a lot of love letter. She saved, I believe, a lot from gordon pickling similar letters that she'd say their letters? She wrote that were never sent, but any indication of any letters from arch hansen or moving back and forth? He was an interesting dire die. Like fifty years go where you going gonna, go to it find out about him- maybe his great great great, certain

wouldn't know anything. They probably wouldn't want to talk to anybody and way right by this strange quick to san diego, to kind of almost escaped allay you one last April this year before she laughed and his data which is down there to talk from the biltmore hours before she disappeared. Third, it makes you wonder you know: did you walk out that door? or go somewhere, or did she walk out because she recognized somebody or somebody's car, and then you asked the question who picked her up? Was it mark Hanson? Was it somebody else he sent? Where did they go afterwards and a because to hold somebody captive for six days, five nights a you're going to have to be very careful that you're not discovered that nobody here suitors screaming, So this is our cabinet at some point,

planned out in detail the beginning. At some point, it became I was very methodical and you know it's not like abducting somebody and telling them that and randomly leaving their bodies somewhere, throwing it car. She was held for five days torture during my time very specific cuts to almost inflict a lot of pain, but not to kill a person and there The very strange mutilations era allow we're on the sexual areas of the body, nasty stuff, hurry ass. They sat and then she's cut in half and wash claim of blood and paused now allow the most people fear. I sit here,

The severing the body was dangerous for purposes is making it easier to transport, which I imagine could be true. I mean you never know, regardless it's very meticulous and very yeah. Displaying the body. That way with those relations is sending a message that you have a hatred of women in general and a real hatred of the specific person you're dehumanizing that person elizabeth short in this case and a very degrading way. That's definitely intended to send a message and the john you mentioned the bisection. The the thing is there sue is you know, depending on you know when, when when people have different suspects, if somebody suspects a doctor, they always jump right out and say well to have done that in a way it was perfect

I would have had to have been a skilled surgical hand and then people that think it was a serial killer or a someone that knew her would say the exact opposite that it did it or that it didn't take a skilled hand that it could have could have just been used saw well. It wasn't a start. First of all, they said it was either scalpel or a butcher. Knife is very clear that there are no. No, I call that green, yellow yourself, the owner. ongoing malaysia, where that is What are you talking about? I think that the- like shards and pieces of of a fragments of bone that would have broken off rather than a clean cut like you're, describing well I've. I don't look like like to look at the body pictures, but I studied them at length.

try to figure out what was in the mind of this person union go so far taken notice at the the cats on this in a very clean. Once you get two per day. there's more than one say sign, but it took a bit of work to do this. But if you look at the whole thing Why does want assume that there is one person involved in this, that it was a doctor or a surgeon? Almost all the mutilations are about body could have been done by anybody. Rough frenzied or the actual bisection was done by a doctor or somebody with a surgical experience. All freestone said to me: every doctors nodded skill surgeons right now they could, medical students and nurses, who could have had their knowledge and do this. I I'd like to actually talk to some experts and-

Could this had been done by some of you, zero medical experience? sign up answer to that point I'm getting at is. Why does I assume that area it was done to her body, is by one person. That's kind of or my mind is gonna this point. Now I don't know, mark handsome, had a lot of shady friends here there allegations that he had experience is a young boy in the cattle business in montana illegal as montana. Now I'd like to find out more about that stuff, I didn't find out twenty five twenty seven, years ago, all the issues is mind, boggling and confusing, and just I never thought I'd be back on this look into it. You know so, many years later, I never thought it'd be on it for three years way back in the eighties,

learn today. Do you have any idea who those friends could obtain? I mean you answer as he is he's too chicken shit. You have done that at the time. At the time I interviewed and hearts they like this, I taught her three times September october and november. Ninety one I found her fourth time in December. after talking to her the first time I sent her a whole package of materials that sent her a copy of a track. Web's the bad xerox's various articles that have come out in the papers over the years He spoke to her three times. I called her in early december and at a different lady answer, the phone and said Anne died. And she goes are you the guidance and all those black dally materials, because there on her bedside when she passed away. So when Anton tired, she was tall reading about this case about her friend the lisbon. The point it is,

me this is I reached her three months before she died and did I plan to go after new year's and driver torino and talk to meet her in person at length, I only knew so much about the case. At this point march hansen I been on my radar, but not as a key suspected at the time. I ah spoke to end the factors that lotta things. She told me that really put him up radar divides my investigating in eighteen eighty eight year earlier, I'm sure what had a chance to talk to I also wrote to I mentioned: I wrote one of the first people I wrote to his finest brown on the two lead detectives. My letter happened to get to him about four or five months before he died. Now I never heard from him

makes me wonder if I'd written in a year or two earlier, what I have been able to drive out texts and interview him quite likely. I could have the coal part about a tracking these people. Is it didn't happen there? When I wrote to aunt half or when I spoke to her tat when I wrote to finance, I thought that would be a fine has passed away and passed away that in both cases I heard from people afterwards. I know about six months after and I got a phone call, a lady that was her daughter. That's my name in number from the centre, getting to know Ands daughter very well. For a couple of years, we speak on the phone. Several times a week we met for thanksgiving once got who are very well and silo. We had a friend but on the other hand I could try china. I know what I couldn't

The same thing happened in silence, browns case I didn't hear anything made, eight months after he passed away, and I hadn't heard anything his daughter how me and I got to know her met with her. So sorry kuwait held continued, but that was our young. coming close to thirty years ago, twenty five thirty years ago, now this father's day find a perfect give further dad who loves the perfect yard. right now save fifty dollars on the steel efficacy. Fifty seven battery trimmer set setting clumsy ever say fifty seven battery trimmer, plus the aching tin battery and I want to one charger offer only, in forty nine dollars it? Ninety nine cents, real steel, find you. Steel dealers that come what may nine. Ninety nine emma s s our pe offer ballot through it's eighteen, twenty three at participating dealers while supplies last. in new orleans. Twenty twelve bruschi chair, I drove to an address someone had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park.

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today, shop and save today, only it actually currently, I'm in touch with just got back in touch with finest brown starter. I spoke with her the other day and er lola Titus his cousin. They both like in their seventies early, days now are of the people. You can actually interview and talk to about this case or are pretty much gone. I mean, if you look at it, killer was say thirty years old, when this happened, I'm going to be like one hundred or one hundred and ten today that it's impossible to to go back and and it's find the real players. I was very lucky. I some people I did when I did I started much later. I wouldn't have too many people there are. I think the youngest person attitude was betty bursting or who found the body she about sixty five, sixty seven the oldest like ninety two or ninety, three and they're all gone now most of them. I dunno, can you still around. She might be

that was long, winded. Wasn't it you, you said very beginning, while we talking at your friend, was. very interested in the three key questions. Yes, what what were the three key questions? Well, you know I got a little obsessed with the three key questions as well. Now one article stated to Harry has said that One key question to ask the question of seven, whereas in a one word answer could wrap up the case. Mostly, I heard there at three I had to do with the condition. I'm attitude it seems that were done to her body. I'm a key questions, as always is not a case. Like this honest I catch, you keep information back, so you can tell false confessions from who actually did it in the treaty as it is in this case very specific things too. Strange too specific

couldn't make them ass. You know so well. I met Paul freestone, the first person, the first lapd retired guy. I talked about the case. It's not, on tape? I did ask what about the key questions, and he said he knew him and he also said it would be pointless reveal them. collapsed at that. I didn't push it, but the weird thing is: this is totally unexpected when I was talking with and half a year or two later, she was getting old, emotional and I mention something like it. It's so terrible and happened. Elizabeth and she was crying and you kind they put their. She described to the key questions she I won't say what she said, but it was a total surprised me that she would even know them and

Why, then, has been published a lot involving the rose tattoo from the peace? Flesh on her side was found embedded into the sbus vagina. This is I hate even talking about this there's something else that he did, which hasn't been published, and I'm not going to mention that I'm just very specific is very sick, I'm so as far as the kt two key, The shins are three key questions: ah yeah they're, extremely a graphic and stuff. You couldn't make up a single answer. Wouldn't me, then, yeah people wouldn't even smaller awhile gas type of answer, but she no one or two

Three? You know he or she knew some of the key questions and she knew to them and the way they came was when she was very emotional about it and she she met. Now by morning, new them, because she heard them from Hansen because well ass. I was lesson. That was why I asked myself later now. I know from talking with an She had a much better relationship with violence, brown and harry Hansen and that I'll wanting this was one of the many crazy word story about this case. early hurry answer would call her hours of the night to ask her. She call them stupid questions like what color coded to land Toward the little short was last seen wearing a coded and a letter very handsome is gone, and it's like late at night. In the middle of the night asking these questions she's ours,

answered she said it was like a really messed up. and one tat one night It also shut up in the door and offered her gun to protect yourself and she told me in her words that man was crazy myself many times since. Why did he do that? Why did harry handsome do such things? I have no idea but to get back to answer your thing about the pay questions she had a better. Relationship was. What time is brown is very I remain very dedicated detective and I ask myself that after she let slip to key questions or two of them Why would she now? How did you come to now? The only thing I can imagine that, as its finest brown told her.

his reasoning, I'm sure he had a good reason. I'm not sure what that was ah, but she did no, specifically all the strange different things at work. then there's one other girl who had, I was going to say: do you think that maybe he asked her? Those questions are told her. The details of those questions because he felt tat. She knew who killed. Well, a short lived with a short but didn't didn't, know the details of what was actually done, and that may be it. If she does, she understood what If she others I'd what a gruesome initiatives it. Maybe she would finally turn in the earth and what it was howdy right. I mean he had a reason to ask her. He wouldn't just randomly mention such disgusting details? You probably want to mention the two. Her timidity like you said:

watching? Oh somebody you'll have a reason to specific types of things by its denmark hansen. An obsession about arose tattoo, as maybe something like that. I don't know he would have had a good reason to ask her but there is some strange things. For a body wanting I will mention is when I met Paul priests down. it was describing the condition of the body at the scene. He took a, he took a close look and he said he noticed a on her upper lip. There was like a little little tic tac toe mark done by like a fine razor. Now I met with the photographer later on who had the negatives of all that the crime scene and more so I got to see at the time I didn't take copies, but I got to see a close up photo of her headshot after

What all this cried, I could see. You can't see it in any photos you get today, but there is very faint slope almost like attacked hallmark energy for nostril, And when Paul told me that's, how are that's very strange and Paul's theory at the time was that Elizabeth was blackmailing somebody, and my thought was the nickname for blackmail of the double cross or tic tac toe mark as a double cross, and I thought oh, no, I'm just reading, if you're into this, but I have to wonder I mean on the bright side. There's all these criss cross double marks double cross marks, I dunno it can be nothing just who knows it could go, but as with the splitting of the alleged to the setting of the.

I don't know it's there were everything was done. Her reason, I'm sure I hate speculated on that horrible really horrible But I did ask and off at one point if she thought a anti us could have been blackmailing somebody and ah- and she said absolutely not, but you never know you never know desperate people do desperate things are, which gets gets into mark hansen and possible criminal activities. Have you read much about that at all? No well people come out, was false information in books that say: oh yeah, he was connected to dogs, they say gonna the underworld and all this there's no evidence of that that he had any connections whatsoever with any of the underworld, crime, mickey cohen, or any of that.

But one are actually three reporters Harold. I interviewed one ass, a mark about mark hansen, First words out of their mouths for king of the bookies king and the bookmakers illegal bookmaking, and I thought oh that's interesting, and that was something I heard many times and mark Hanson was very successful in theater business, the nightclub business he owned a lotta real estate. seems like you know somebody could do quite well it that was involved in bookmaking. All according to this report, as he was It has been kept really quiet. I mean you, don't advertise something like that that you're involved in any criminal activities to to your wife or anybody, I'm speculation about price teaching guy on. As aside business, thornton gardens his night club herbert. abortion rings

It makes you wonder what he might have been involved with, but back then you now and especially especially in l a there was a lot of that going on. I wasn't terribly uncommon, right, I mean there were there will now and william they were. There were illegal gambling houses and and maybe being a nightclub owner, maybe you're, not the king of the book. Making, but you allow some of that that tab, entertainment, if you will to go on because it does it's a draw that brings people in europe. It brings into mind a lot of possibilities and that's you know, there's a nightclub: it's got a lot of a pretty girls, a lot of people.

Drinking. Is there side business but prostitution and who knows? Are there as other side? Businesses like I said you know, That is just gets to mine are landed, it's all speculation, and this is true, what actually went out at that time? Unless you're fired peoples, personal diaries or public records it to dedicate things set out new said, obviously, none of her none of her belongings were found at at the actual crime scene? The dumb site, and then some of some of her items were sent. You know mail them and were any of her. Anything of hers found elsewhere? Did you know? Ah yes, it's funny. I would mention that there is.

Quite large, the mermaid your week, ten days I forget, whence migrants are found. Her shoes least one shoe or purse around the area of crime shine pico. Have you ever look at a map of the world It was a few, miles away from where she was found out of it items were either tossed out of a car or place replace their near like curbside, I think No two. Let me pull up the map, so I can give you a visual. As I'm talking, you really have to look at a map of l a generally a if the body was found when she was ah last seen at the biltmore, that's downtown l, a a and er where she was found was on the south An avenue several miles west and its work

the way south of kind of downtown l a south of hollywood. Today, it's called south central is called though back then it was the limerick park area that is quite south in the area. And her purse and sure shoes were found straight up. Kinshasa tat occurs off around pick on croatia, there were reported seen by a guy. I think restaurant owners something the time he call police and they got there the aid and had been picked up by the trash, so they had to get them from mean that an ally- anyway, so the body is south Norton avenue moving up several miles straight up, Crenshaw shooters impress were found It gets even better than that in miss this line, is going straight up towards hollywood.

This map going well once you have to do more, Assuming somebody picked her up, assuming it was a teller or somebody involved. Where did they take her and you're? Look at a map of l a and go east. There's nothing, but factories and whatnot north has kind of pasadena south as There's nothing no place use ever related to or anybody involved in the case of red man live south. There when you go north last, getting to allay downtown the main portions of north to hollywood size, suspect it was in that region somewhere I mean they never found a crying shame that no evidence of a currency almost makes the mind boggles to think about it. But when I set it gets better, heard about the I'm in the mercedes.

I know Larry aren't issues pollyanna Britain park or even mentioning this, but the The four men in the mercedes in He was nineteen. Eighty three gaming vince carter carter, published a book called road cops and in here. The story of these four men and a mercedes, and everybody has proved the story is being not true. I am her here, but the story about three years earlier. Let me back reckoned in tell you what happened tat narrative about all the tacit killers by sidney hurt patrick. the one about the king leaders, for the murder of boiling desmond taylor, and I read about in a sex and why I started researching the black dialysis acknowledgements and he mentioned

lieutenant haines, jack halstead is being a friend of brown who was chief detected in the black dahlia my trying to find out people those talk to track down jack horsted and actually want to place in there we are receiving Chatsworth way way. Far from me, what we got each other use really nice guy and we talked about the black dire and at the time, I ran a newspaper called lapd retired. It was a newsletter, not newspaper newsletter. Only for retired lapd guys niches again before the internet was something he tied up. He mailed allowed to all the lapd. Retired gotcha islamiya put Sunday and about what you're doing and I can find out. Maybe three farmers, later jack calls me and because I got something for you and up until this point I would go out to jack place and talk and I'd right. Everything down on my little know

I do yellow legal pad. It was this time I went out to jack's place and it'll office garage, and it goes a a Sit out, I got a story for you for my family, but you can't write it down. He told me the story which, like all the four million mercedes, add enough. It's true not that if the candle in my mind at the time so much so that after a jack told me the story. I said I do I can by the time. But let me shake your hand, I will say goodbye, and will you tell him? will you tell me the story a second time and then I'm a random the car weighted down. He goes that'll work, so you tell me Story, second time, a second time now published in their cars book everybody out it's a crock of shit. I I wonder because it was told me by an lapd retired lieutenant who heard it from another cod

happened to. Apparently the story goes on of january, the thirteenth generating says windows with short body was found later. like that nice like two in the morning, or something to detect it's one of whom the store into jack. Two undercover detectives were returning from hollywood. They served. search warrant suspected something you're. The guy was embarrassed, the their driving back down. To their own base, which is university, division south down Crenshaw the short body was Fernand not far from Crenshaw so the two in the morning there at the light crunch on the eighth. I don't know if it was stopped what they call a sum of war that their part there waiting goes from the south comes a car, spitting determinedly to be a mercedes cabin.

the time going higher rate of speed. Now the ass he caught up until the morning whose I driving around the cops people coming home. Late from work, but driving down the street sixty suddenly even of an hour the odyssey somebody up? No good so whether you're a patrol officer, under cover, whether on the assignment and not you're gonna go after the car, which they did they. U turn chased the car up, well sure crenshaw, he was going to a high rate of speed, took a hard right at wilshire and a left. I think it's almost the first left at bronson and according to the story, a they pulled in front of a bungalow court, now look at the map. Gonna get quite away is, but if your clock it even guy, sixty miles an hour, even though over three merged and make it not stopping so the two com

under cover cops pull up, and or guys gonna mercedes, three got right away and headed into this Angelo court. Now Jack said it was a bungalow court on bronson. I don't know I've, I thought a short stash stretcher browser, but from what I can to determine. There's no bungalow ports there, which, like a kind of out of court three guys go in. This room one bungalows, leave the door open for the poor guy who south slower, and I guess he rationed into the back to grab his hat or something as he's climbing around the car. The two cops have already parked and they're coming up to the guy and he seats and kind of steps. Little towards the bungalow and their right behind them. They kind all burst in the altogether, like a arms now boughs and

According to the story, the two cops said you know you guys are under arrest and they're like what for what for like for driving eighty miles now, Crenshaw, that's the reason and from. What the camera goes is the guys were quite relieved that that was the only charge, but they were being a little bit alert and invasive and the cop I take a look around you and the council and what kind of nervous One of the detectives opened the door in the bathroom and said it was just the whole places loaded with blood blood everywhere, bathtub floor laws, everything attitude, believe the story which I'm not sure if I'd do, but it's it's a it's, there might be something to it. I'm they went. The cops are shaken up by this point. They've pulled their guns, the holding the guys are one of them and pulled the card out, which was

courtesy, cardinal there. They face them out soon. After this nl. I pity courtesy card had somebody's name, an answer. To this extent, courtesy to the barrow this card and if there's you know Situation call the person listed on the reverse and they looked at the number. The name on the reverse sound. the number and our goes at an l, a police captain. I pity police captain showed up and I have sent out back. Persons now I'd rather not reveal it. At this point, the toy story. Really true or not story. He took the two

we were outside and they said well, who are the injured? Look at the way that realm is loaded with blood and the captain said you didn't say anything you know just forget about tonight or you know you didn't see anything go home to your wives. Forget this and I dunno it's kind of an interesting story, or if I read it in this guy's book, I probably wouldn't believe it. But the fact is, I hurt, you know from hearing it from a a detective or another detective, a retired lieutenant who put it in the lapd newsletter that which only lapd guys read. I dunno, maybe there's nothing to it it's complete lie. I dont know it. Sir, an intriguing story: Actually, when you look at them map of l, a look at where her body was found in the south, going up north to wear the shoes and purse were found in continuing north to where the bronze,

bungalow court allegedly wasn't continue even further north you're right, our chances house doesn't mean anything. I don't know you're It was one of those stories that it gets so strange and it involves way more people in a game. Are we going to say years ago I come across? poor- and I can't remember who was from but someone or someone had seen or reported a late thirties and black ford said dan being part about slowly, three or four minutes at the in the middle of the night, at the sight of where the body was, and now I mean under the cover of dark you're, talking about a black. mercedes something about a black for sudan who

It was a no. I mean if you're a if I was a detective on this case have pulled my hair out. Just all of all the the things too to get where you talking about his on the night of the fourteenth. Right where the body was found right thereabouts, there was a about nine or nine thirty pm there was a cream coloured. Ford seemed like a guy named Walter Johnson and he was off. I think he had a pickup truck and he was dumping off, shreds and shrubs in the vacant lot and a park and saw this cream. Colored short, and I think the newspaper account goes like you, I just through shrubs, die, and he saw a guy with her a long coat and hat pull. Loan came around scrutinised, Johnson's truck and looked at him, and I was turning a bit of a frightening at the side of a guy took off his tar Alison

Before at six. Thirty am, I think it was on the fifteenth still dark outside another witness named bob myerst black for its part in the same spot, now that makes me go my augur that, was a related. Is it we are the parties to the murder. Is one car scalping it out. I mean you're ready to house connected. I was stealing the car seeing that morning. The blackboard could well have been the the carpet, color or killers used to leave the body. I don't know about that. The other thing the night before that it makes Who is it that you had a scratch yet the black for today and was seen it? What time? Is it six? Six? Thirty six area? I think it was in the due date:

said, the dew was between two am six am m and the sun If you want to get into specifics, the sun rose. I think that that morning, like six, fifty five, so at six thirty, it's still the dark that about to get light. That's a bit risky! There are so many questions. Each one leads to something else but, like I said, everybody has interesting names as well with so many strange aspects to this case and in all seriousness, there is there. Is there? Is there anything that you want to mention or talk about that? We that we haven't anything that we've skipped over or miss? I guess there's one thing well to say briefly. Have you read about the motel asked your motel now I into this,

When I was doing my research, you know, I I think I told you that a certain point I came to a dead end. Then I read about Lola title: shake mark Hanson. I was off in another direction and I research all papers, I could find going through some file, some microfiche in a library there's an article tiny article one inch bloody motel room, the fat ones. You know black dahlia. I don't remember the headline. This is a sometime into the case January february, and I thought oh, this is. This is really exciting. I saw a follow up article the next day and then it was dropped. I thought well whatever happened there, so I I asked nathan hamill the veteran l a newsman about this. I said what about the the bloody motel room and he goes uh. Oh yeah. They found that and they are paid off.

it's happened organ or something it's why those things you could spend a lighter just looking into four men, mercedes or though a bloody motel room. There were many reports. This place called the astor motel came up and that places around you can go rent a room there. I wouldn't just taking a look at the players. It's kinda city today, but back in to god. The whole investigation of the owners of the astor motel? allegedly uppermost just again loaded with blood in this case faces on the floor. Apparently, clothing was burned out, dunno. Why that the people who call the police buddy

So it gets a little bit muddy and crazy, but you have to wonder what there was to it. I mean the astro motel. The police took seriously enough to check every room with ray pinker and s id to check every room. now back in there today we have all sorts of ways to determine if blood was ever in a room. What's the or the one with almost like the blacklight. What's that yeah, but the women are bloom, yet we have that the back, then you think they didn't have methods, but they did. It was called the bends it intact and I could go into a place and The cap- is caught not a wall or bathtub six months a year. After the murder and put a drop of hydrogen peroxide, a drop of benzene or the term blue, that was the presence of blood there a year before so ray pinker and his guys were there.

every every motel room at the astral motel and didn't find anything except in one room. They found evidence of blood and the owners claimed a a woman had to begin menstruating and blood on the floor. There could be, but they are apparently didn't find blood everywhere. I got into this whole thing as oh yeah. Witness all is the short term. Oh yeah, she does. Somebody saw mark Hanson there so track it all down, and they the witnesses apparently were positive. They saw mark hansen at the hotel. So far as brown arranged to an in person meeting not a meeting but a kind of walk through where the the people could walk into a room and see mark hanson in person said dollars. Absolutely wasn't him So when those interesting side investigations in the bloody motel and there were a lot of locations? Mention one on washington boulevard, they asked her

the bungalow on bronson I mean take one you know go town is very confusing. The did you another question, But so do you believe that it was probably more than one person, One a war. or maybe all the persons involved, new was it a shorter were involved in our life in some way. in a nutshell, yes, I believe it arose, involves, knew her. The scenario of what happened after she was abducted during the five days. Who is there? Who did what we'll never know now about stuff. I fought with the night asked myself a lot about

he knows that like say the jfk investigation, you or anything involving possibly more than one person. How do you keep a secret for so many years that your one person you commit murder You probably keep a secret unless you have a need to boast. If it's too people the read somebody talking about it gets higher. I don't take. There is a whole group of people involved. De. I can entirely why I definitely believe mark handsome bald head smart enough during the period of production

to come home early every night, but I wonder where he was during the daytime. I'm it brings to mind a lot of scenarios. Of what ifs are possibilities. I didn't think the fact that a killer set in his address book was definitely a a to put him in the hot seat which, if you're to believe that, because he probably knew who who else was involved. Where are we going to ask? Do you think that the person or persons involved did something murdered before or after I know, we've never seen. You know, we've never seen something like this or I'm, not I'm not a psychologist. I'm not the right person to answer that. I picked a few to ask. If you ask a homicide, detectives or john douglas, they would probably tell you that this person has committed a crime.

Before I don't know what you're type. I personally think that the person ever did it again. I think so It was a this particular murder was. It was definitely the I. I liked that John Douglas has he's released multiple profiles on the perpetrator of this crime, yet he's never reviewed the The case file. What does get low little facts wrong, to which I found stranger than he was able deliver multiple profiles and not have reviewed much of the of the details Well, I, like it, said the Earl lapd psychologists, doktor christmas. There was quoted in the tv. Have you there

It was not a rage. Margaret was planned and china size something this colored rehearsed many many times it at this point I better go to bed just scratch. My head, I once again over over this case after thirty years. One last thing all touch on As a have you read about the phone calls chaffing around the night of the burger to mark Hansen's house. No, I I actually didn't know it was a couple of books that I've read in a recent I didn't know what I in this memorial dancing, an all you won't,

Well, you won't find much in books or websites about mark Hanson, except a theater owner he's, not a suspect. Well, you dig deeper. He was a major suspect in his eye, prime suspects or another kind of crazy little thing that happened and, and they discussed this a lot on there. I think it's the black dahlia in hollywood website which is quite good, quite factual now and have elizabeth short disappeared. The night she was found. The fifteenth and hotspur turn to mark Hansen's house from christmas up north around the tents. I believe it was came through the door or her first question. Daddy marks mark says: oh she in san diego and it's kind of evasive. a few nights later. I think a lot of reports,

instead of just being the twelfth- and I don't have and notes in front of me for months I took on the one I think she told me this may have happened. The very night of the murder, in other words the fourteenth but from midnight to one am a. She was a mark hanson's and was on the phone started ringing, a like every five minutes or less, and these calls went on an hour now, an ant hold me that's a night in anyone. I was absolutely blown away. It came out of the two thousand and three when the district attorney investigation released some of its files. It came out that, yes, he's from calls did happen I won't get into all of it sad to say, lived and top in a room with mark handsomer needs phone calls came in, and this was according to em, The night she was murdered and I won't say,

about it right now. This will probably disappoint a legion of certain bone, people who ripped into shreds. But that's fine, I'm, I won't say anything except to mark Hansen's reactions to the phone calls or or not the actions of what I perceived to be a person with no knowledge about the case. In other words, they're very suspects or evasive responses to this phone calls. I mean it's strange enough that they would come in at all. Why them any desire things, but this murder, Well, I'm sure I'm missing something well, there's so much, but I appreciate the year the conversation in greater detail. Ok, I was good talking to your really good yeah yeah you're, talking to you through the banks.

Frankly, thank you very much appreciate it. It was great talking with you hope you guys enjoyed part two of the black dahlia and hope the extra content made the workweek little more bearable. Just remember the kiddies go back to school in a couple of weeks, so more free time. For a big thank you to mark from california for helping us with this episode I loved here, his inside on the case, and I hope you stole keep working on that book. Buddy you're finished, bulk, so we can promote it on the show it can be a recommended reading until next week. Don't let the this spring transform your.

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