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The welcome to true grabbed garage wherever you are whatever you were doing, thanks for listening, I'm your host nick and with me, as always, is a man that knows the solution to all problems worldwide is simple: it's pure rock

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in early june mary of ninety ninety, the message inquire reported the following with the headline at the top of page one announcing victim of brutal murder. discover the body of a man beaten and shot with hands, feet and teeth removed, was discovered sunday morning january, seventh, ninety nine and ninety south davies county Kentucky the public affairs officer for kentucky state police.

Says, quote it's absolutely a case of foul play and whoever did this attempted to obscure the identity of the body. They didn't want any fingerprints or any identification from dental records. It appears that was deliberate, one trooper with Fifteen years experience with the force described it as the most brood murder he has seen the davies county corner was at the scene. in judging from a preliminary inspection set of the body appears. The victim was shot at least twice and severely beaten on the chest and head with a blunt instrument. He said that no tattoos or a fine marks on the body. The unidentified victim was described as being white, twenty five to thirty five years old,

one hundred and twenty five to one hundred and forty pounds about five feet. Seven inches tall with collar length, brown, hair, kentucky state police said a cadaver dog trained to find bodies will be brought in to search the area, for the victims body parts, but would not say whether anything besides the body was found at the scene police have no suspects. He said police were urging anyone who may have seen anything unusual or no of a missing person meeting the description of the victim to call the state police or the sheriffs department? They would be keeping all cause confidential. They said adding that the description of the victim will be sent to law enforcement agencies across the country. There is a great quote that sums it up nicely by one of the office,

in charge of the scene. When asked to comment on the murder, the body recovery, seen in the situation as a whole, he simply said it's bizarre. The kentucky state police said that they would be pursuing all of the possibilities and quote. It may just be a brutal murder or it could be a sophistic aided type situation, but it is kind of an unusual situation? This is true, grime garage.

ro captain we are once again in the great state of kentucky- and here we are talking about another unidentified remains that were found in kentucky, and I want to take it a step further than what we did in the trailer. So what you heard in the trailer there. Everyone is kind of pieces from the first article that ever came out of it. This case, and that would be from january of nineteen. Ninety now the second newspaper article- and this is the same newspaper I dont it's the same writer or not, but we have the same newspaper here in just one day: two, I wonder a kind of here how the information has changed already now, what is stated in the trailer is based off of

what they would call a preliminary autopsy, and that's just simply that we have corner on scene, where this body is found and located and kind of, assessing the victim and the situation as he or she would see it on the crime scene and then, speaking with the newspaper, this article comes out after they ve had time to actually conduct a proper autopsy soulless, how some of this information has changed or or the variations of the information that we have. In this case, this articles, written by steve hunt and its from the next day, say the headline says: slaying victim remains unidentified says. After an autopsy assert by a cadaver dog and checks of new. Leads authorities have not identified the mutilated body of a man found sunday in eastern davies, county, the victim, a white all this time we have em listed at twenty five to thirty years old.

and now they know that he has been shot six times three times in the head and three times in the chest, with a twenty two caliber weapon, the victor also had been severely beaten with a blunt instrument and his skull was crushed. The autopsy did not determine what type of instrument was used in the blunt force travel, the man's nude body with its hands and feet severed, was discovered off of pleasant valley. Road again, that's davies county can okey police initially reported that the victims teeth had been removed, but the autopsy revealed that the majority of the teeth were still intact. Of the two thousand death investigations that this corner has worked. He says quote: this is the weirdest. The victim is described as being about five feet: seven inches tall, one hundred and twenty two one hundred and forty pounds with collar length brown hair. I do want to note that I've seen on the internet captain that this collar length

our hair, even though put it this way in the first couple days, I've seen reports on the internet that state that it could be hair as long as eight inches. So I dont know what the discrepancy there, but it appears that this individual had quite curly hair and that will become obvious when anybody looks up pictures of this still unidentified individual difficult thing about this cases: the conflicting information online. Yes, but when they say this is the weirdest case, I mean to me it's brutal and maybe possibly leads to more than one attacker, because how Much damage was done to this individual and I think that the the suspicions that you have in that I have really kind of echo what the officer was saying at the crime scene at the body, covering seeing that very first day where he says look this just might be:

other brutal murder or it could be something far more sophisticated right. We just don't know at this time, because we ve not been able to identify this the article goes on to say- and this is the coroner's word saying- that the victims hands had been cut off at the risk in the feet, cut off at the ankles, and they were able to determine the instrument or what instrument was used to amputate the hands and feet by amputees, in the hands you're eliminating one, the identifiers, but by leaving the teeth than he could get ratification through dental records. Yes, in the article goes on to state that you know that the sheriff davies county sheriff at the time he saw

seeing this autopsy was very helpful. It did answer some of the questions we have. We now know a little bit more about the circumstances, not only how the victim died, but what he may have been dealing with in terms of a perpetrator or I'm sorry what they may be dealing with intent of a perpetrator. He declined to elaborate. The the sheriff did, of course, of this sound familiar to anybody. We covered a case on episode, five hundred and thirty four, we titled that case man with no hands this cases possibly connected to thou one yeah and people are probably thinking hey. This sounds familiar that exactly why? Because it's a very similar case where the man with no hands still is just that he is a man who has not been named yet I've been given his name back there he found around the same time in both in the state of kentucky and we'll get into those.

Kind of similarities and differences. Here in a minute they go on to say this: Police goes on to say in this article that that can the cadaver dog was brought in. They were hoping to find the hat. I'm sorry, they were hoping to find the hands and feet somewhere at the scene and with the cadaver dog, nothing turned up, so somebody somebody dumped this body there and were very aware and went out of their way to two not leave these items. Behalf to, let me just get this correctly, so we have multiple gunshots. We have blunt force trauma to the chest and head, and then we have severed hands and feet d, and so here's what I'm not clear on- and I was hoping to get some clarification on this in may be. Will we will at some point it seems like the kentucky state police are pretty tight lipped on this case and and I get it, and I understand why I dont think that either this

or the man with no hands are cold cases. I think that they have the potential to heat up very quickly and a lot of that's based off of just science right Firstly, they have the dna of the man with no hands and they the dna of the davies county, John doe brain what you're hoping at least with that information that, at some point, if we identify, are victim, That may lead us to one standing the circumstances in how, why this individual was attacked or killed. and also may lead you to a suspect, poor, a pool of people that would have been closed this individual, maybe they have criminal it. Maybe there's a criminal element within side that social circle, as though it could lie need you to to the suspect just by identifying the victim here. What's so interesting about that to me and why I think that that's a very likely

situation here captain is it look at what the length of the perpetrator or perpetrators went to make sure that the person was not identified rain, and so could lead you write to the suspects doorstep. Again, though, the weird thing here is: I'm unclear about the the teeth right. So we two very different reports very quickly in this case, where the day of their saying look, teeth were removed. This second day there saying there were some teeth missing, but there were not. None of them were extracted. Brain so what I'm wondering, if you look at where the blunt force trauma occurs on the victim here again, they say chest: head. But to me the majority of it is on the face itself in the face If anybody was listening to our show last week, they know that that's important, but how

I wonder captain if, though, the teeth missing any of those that are missing if there's some missing because of the blunt forced trauma. Yet it made somebody didn't go out of their way to extract them. The way that some reports have said here, it just happened stance that when you are applied that force and that day doing that damage bones. When a break bones will chip teeth? Will chip teeth will be knocked out that still call them and both of these cases to think that there is a family out there? That has a missing person in their family? Why hasn't this end of vigil been identified, and so by shining light on it and be able to share this information. And share the image of this victim that that me be somebody will come forward and say hey, I I knew that guy or or that's a family member right,

and the thing to you know: they're gonna do their work behind the scenes to process all the physical evidence that was found at the scene. This would be things like blood, hair fibre samples bullets taken from the body and that last bullets taken from the body is an interesting line there too, because really looking at this crime scene and where they find the victim, I'm guessing that any physical evidence they have they're going to have to pull it from the victim. Themselves. It it's doesn't appear like this crime scene will have a wealth of physical evidence. It simply looks to me, like somebody dump this poor guy. There covered him up with some stick and he's easing the thickets. I mean he's in the woods pretty much and there guess. That's another interesting angle to this whole case when you look at it in itself, that reminds me very much of the man with no hands. Obviously, then we have a secure,

should that it looks to me like it probably would have taken to individuals to place this person where he was ultimately for and so, while you may only have one actual murderer, you may have me people involved in disposing of this individual. Now, with no hands he's found in a barn peace, six foot, five, even even on the short end of it. They listened at six. What for right I've seen unless it is tall six with six, but general consensus seems to be the main, with their hands with six. What five two hundred and thirty pounds- and he found inside a born- ass, you had some tools or something to help. You move that person that's going to require two people to place him here now our davies county, John doe, he is significant. the smaller than the man with no hands they have him listed at approximately five foot, sixty five foot, seven inches taller, a hundred and twenty five, two hundred and forty pounds. So

nick ITALY smaller than the man with no hands. However, given the late the land and where the body was found again he's found in the thickets of the woods it. looks to me like a good chance that somebody may have had to carry him a decent distance from from the road we have any tire tracks the if, if they do have them, they ve not said this publicly did they have any certain types of tyre that they are looking for? What information. we do have the is interesting to me as it. The court stating that we believe that he was killed within a day or a couple: ways of being found so he's not. decompositions not stream here. If we were hoping fine, tire tracks or if there ever were any. If anybody did drive off the road, you would think you would be fine them, given the short period of time that elapse between placing the boy. Be there and then, when these two hunters are out in the woods and discover

pilots sticks with the man underneath of rain, but also of these cases were connected as the murderer, maybe don't places the visual tobacco barn. Is you don't want them to be connected right? So, let's take a look at that. There grant county John doe if you, if you were to want to officially look up the man with no hands he's refer to as the grant county John doe we chose this other name in don't attack us for because we didn't come up with it. It was actually reported one way at at some point that a news outlet ordered him to be the man with no hands- and that was a very interesting title and why do you choose an interesting title? Will this guy needs to be identified and the more people that are interested in listening to the information and looking up the information, the better chance it is that he gets identified right, So that's why you're role with that? So let's compare the great

county John doe, the man with no hands to this davies, county John doe, the these county, John doe, is found january seventh, nineteen, ninety and remember: it's believed that he was killed shortly before being placed there. We are have our man with no hands is found april- ninth, nineteen, eighty, nine, so less than a year apart. Now they were found about approximately one hundred and eighty five to a hundred ninety miles apart when there asked about, A bizarre this davies. county john doe case and situation is, you can almost see it? You could almost see it with reading between the lines of their words where they're like yeah, this is pretty unusual. This is very unusual. They won't. out of their way to say it's. The

I think we ve ever seen like this, no because the officers at the same time there at the scene and they're gone or wait a second. Where have I heard of something like this before? Oh, it was in our state, and it happened less than a year ago, where hands were removed of another victim, yeah you'd have I assume that law enforcement heard about the other case, you'd have to assume it some point that maybe even those law enforcement agencies reach out to other people on the state for some help to possibly identify the victim well both cases here. Captain we got the state police that are called in immediately right, so it's technically belongs to the same agency. You just have different posts that have these jurisdiction or or or will be actively working a particular case. But let's, let's refreshed the memories of the beautiful,

there's out there. So when we're talking about the man with no hands again, that was an episode. Did last year november of twenty twenty one episode number five, thirty, four, the very basic general summary of the case- and this is by the via cap- alert that's on fbi, doc, gov you can find this on. Their website says. On Sunday April, ninth nineteen, eighty nine, the victim's remains were discovered in a tobacco barn in rural grant county kentucky, it is estimated the victim was killed. Approximately two weeks prior, the victim was shot twice in the back of his head with a twenty two caliber gun or sorry. Twenty two caliber weapon is the exact words they use here. His hands were cut off and he was stripped of all of his clothing. The victim had extensive dental work to include a ten unit. Porcelain, fixed a porcelain to metal

bridge, with missing teeth, replace with porcelain. Politics, I believe, is how you say that for additional information and photographs regarding this victim refer to the national missing, an unidentified persons system. Nameless database case report number. You p h, six because of the extensive dental work. I can't believe that this endeavour has not been identified right debts. That's always been a very troubling thing for me. The first thought that you have in this situation when somebody like this is now Been identified, you start to wonder: has he ever been reported missing, as you ve been report missing from anywhere I may. We went through our coverage That case we went through persons, it would match his height right, we're ported missing in the months in years leading up to it and we can anybody that looked like him. We had some great listener feedback on this as well and with his other case with the,

these county John doe. We here same thing repeated in the grant county case in the man with no hands case, twenty two caliber weapon, weird right y- know. That's a pretty common caliber too to use and we we often will site. There are many cases that we ve covered here in the garage but interesting that bodies disposed of in a very similar fashion and so much so that we're talking thirty years later, neither these individuals have been identified still to this day and in both cases the same caliber of weapon is used and the mammoth no hay case shot in the back of the head. That seems execution style to me with the davies county, John doe, at demeaned, it does seem a little different right. I mean it's: if we have the blunt force trauma along with six gunshots, so

It's a bit different in that situation, but we have the same caliber. The first thing I'm doing. If I'm law enforcement is I'm doing a bliss iq test to see if those bullets match the same gun as the victim exactly and the other thing that makes us really interesting here to captain is unfortunately, thirty. Thirty, two years later, neither of these individuals identified yet, but the work that kentucky state police have done on both of these is it: they ve done a lot of hard good work on these cases and that's why I think that either one of em could heat up like that, I mean it at a moment's notice. They can heat up very quickly in both cases. Now as far as the davies county John doe goes. We did have the the serbs pointing out very quickly early on their like look. This is going to be particularly difficult to investigate because usually we law enforcement police, we have more leads to go on. We use

have something to use as a starting point. There's a here. We don't know who the the victim is. We don't know how he got here, we don't believe him to be local. We believe that he was killed just Ease or couple days prior to being placed here but you have no victim name, no, no clothing, nothing to point us any kind of direction at all, and one thing that makes us particularly difficult to is found this with the man with no hands at some point in their instigation. They ve not released a whole lot to the public, but at some point there investigation. They start kicking the tyres on this idea that, maybe This man was brought here. Maybe was driven here firm, a great distance to be dumped here We already know that they went to the extensive lengths Removing his hands well made I don't mind driving

miles several states a way to dispose of this person's body. Now, in the day these county john doe situation. They point out that the victim had a quote farmers, tan well he's found in january in northern kentucky and fact this is I've never been to davies county, but it it's directly below the indiana border state line there he's found in january and northern kentucky and found within. It or so of having been killed. Yet he has a farmer stand and so one thing that they did put out to the public fairly quickly in in the Davis county case is based off of that information where, where, where Looking for a breadcrumb here, we are looking for a breadcrumb here, we're going to throw this out to the public and say because of this farmers, tan there's a good chance. He was brought here from someplace else.

Yeah, unless he's a complete weirdo and where t shirt to the tanning bed, exactly exactly throws a whole another ranch into this situation and we do, now that they were putting out the victims description across the country, they were looking for anybody that would vaguely match the description of this man. This is also a tricky situation, I think for law enforcement, because if you do a den of fires family does this put his family? either one of the victims does that put their family in harm's way?

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representing the black economy. Mobile requires prospects for internet after twenty four months, regular supplies, more services and devices all right, we are back to the windows of the walls, cheers everybody cheers and make sure you subscribe to the show. That's right! can we really shows willy nilly whenever we feel like you're, probably miss one. If you're not subscribe, yeah don't be left to be left in the dark. That's right! Well, air captain! We got this weird situation where we left off. We were talking about how law enforcement were work under the hypothesis that the victim may be from outside of davies county, then maybe driven there in place there in

in the spot, however, they also go out of the way to say that they believe that the killer probably local or how some kind of local ties based off of where and how they found the body, meaning that they be that somebody new that spot that they didn't just drive at random, pull over and place this victim there, so that We are tired of angle to work off of that, the victims not from that location, but the killer is probably local we have brought up dna this case, and we know that that's going to be what will ultimately break this case. Wide open this situation in two thousand and seven they actually are. Defied the davies many John doe as a scar, Michael morse. So scott michael moors. Missing from indianapolis as a teenager in nineteen. Seventy eight. Let me, let's just think about that, for a second,

I know we're throwing out a lot of numbers and lot of location, an information so gets a little cloudy, sometimes scott, Michael Boris, who they identified to be there. of the davies county, John doe case solved, went missing a night in seventy eight from indianapolis davies John doe is found in nineteen ninety in kentucky twelve years Eleven in change after this teenager went missing. I have a couple different reports. one reports as two thousand and nine, the other reports as two thousand and ten, but regardless both have the same result. What they say here captain is it Further dna testing, I dont know how they arrived at the idea that, Person was scott, Michael morse. Maybe some samples got screwed up. Maybe they were too there's something else. I am a little unclear of of how they arrived at that conclusion yeah, but we need to give them

You stay police, big ups on there because I mean one of my favorite quotes is in Air only becomes a mistake once you refuse to correct it and here they made an error they did not allow, to become a mistake because they did corrected in they announced to the public. There saying look. Whether be two thousand nine or two thousand and ten. We stake only identified, these remains they do not belong. The body does not belong to that of scott Michael morse. Well of my favorite quotas. I believe and goes but more importantly, I think they should believe in themselves. Well, let's not leave the listeners hanging here, because that scout michael morse angle of the story is interesting in itself. So, just a quick little bad choice of words when we're talking about a victim without hand, just a quick little aside here as far as

Morris's case goes. It says here on the Charlie project website. This scott was last seen in his home town of indianapolis indiana on august, fourteenth nineteen, seventy eight he went to a convenience, store down the street from his home and never returned. He was a frequent run away at the time of his disappearance. Three days after Scott went missing, he called his family to say that he was worth for a carnival in pennsylvania in nineteen eighty nine. He called a family friend and said that he was okay and still working for a carnival, but would not say where the conversation was very brief and Scott never got in touch with his loved ones. Again after that, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine phone call to

family friend. Then we had the new body found in daviess county kentucky. One thousand nine hundred and ninety was miss identified as Scott. In two thousand and seven, the victim had been beaten and shot to death. His hands and feet were cut off and his teeth had been removed. Again it sounds like only a portion of the teeth were removed, and this, According to the charlie projects, as in two thousand and nine was win, dna analysis proved that the dead man wasn't scott, more so weird angle. To that that story that he's misidentified the bodies misidentified, but then the scott morse cases interesting in itself, because a known run away. He called a couple times so let his family know that he was alive. In fact, he calls the second call. comes in eleven years after he goes missing. The point is not a runaway right he's, never gotten in touch with his family. Again after nineteen, eighty nine and I've read

several articles, captain that says it is believed that he is, is dead the heat. No longer with us right so I guess you mean that Certainly, gonna make sense in it hell this identify. Body was identified to be him, but lab kind of wonder where this this scott morse case goes now, Anybody would have any information on the scott morse case, you'll want to contact the indianapolis police department for that one hundred and thirty one. Seven thousand three hundred and twenty seven six thousand nine hundred and fifteen, but we do want to point out here based off of all the information we have in that we ve seen and received. It appears that scott morse wanted to be missing, or at least not with his family ever have bizarre. Is it that we have a situation where we think possibly because of the distance, because of the time because of the because the way the bodies were found, the torture

that was to these victims, you can make out pretty intelligent argument that there are connected and with its twenty two caliber yeah, then one of the victims is identified, and then they go whoops up, see that not the guy sorry right it makes the case, even even stranger, yeah, and it's one of those things to that. I wanted to make sure that we included this. Portion in the show, because of what? If this scott more guy, is still alive and well and he's fine, he's gone and he's created a different life forms of living, from his family, We don't know why he laughed, but obviously we have. The it's obvious he did not want to be with his family for whatever reason, but at the same time as this

where he goes. He reaches out at least on two occasions to go out of his way to let them know, hey, I'm fine, I'm you know terrible's happened to me. I wonder This got morskaya still out there if they're wrong, that he's not dead has, This information that he was you know identified as this this boy body that was discovered in Kentucky if this informed it is just not reaches iser ears for some reason, because have to wonder if he went out of his way twice to let family, no hey, I'm alive and well right that if this for me and had reached him. You would think he would reach one more time and say nope, that's not me, I'm not the guy that they found in Kentucky. But he's not done, then. Maybe that's what they're basing off their statement Well, we believe, for whatever reason this got Morris's is now deceased yeah our strange that there is no follow up coming from law enforcement they're, the ones that made the mistake

you think, maybe at some point they go all well. We know we did further testing and we actually think were wrong, and on top of that, we actually know what happen scott. So I do want to make sure that we discuss the discrepancy in the general information in this case, just so that if this word hit the right listeners ears that they don't go, oh they're, not talking about a case that I know wow so rather than rather than we do. Not know what the exact information is, what the most correct information is, because we can only base it off of the very limited information that has been released by the kentucky state police. Now we have it reported multiple ways from different sources, so we're just going to kind of give it all to you and you can sift through and find what you believe to

or what is in fact the case here, but this individual still unidentified has been thirty two years. It's easy mail that was found in owens borough kentucky. The age range is weird to me: captain, because I've seen it fluctuate quite a bit, it seems to be it seems to be a very fluid situation with this man's age, where he was listed at twenty to thirty years old, then at some point is listed, Twenty five to thirty, which is a nice tight window. I like us, I like a smaller windows, so we're more specific here, but now, as is thirty thirty two years later, the most information, you will find. Is it this individuals estimated to have been twenty five to approximately forty years of age at the time of his murder? He is caucasian here again. You're gonna see a wide swing in the potential height of this individual, where they have him. As short as five foot and ass tall ass, five foot, seven

and I know, that the information that we read at the top of the hour was was Different- five foot six or five with seven, but as it sits today, most of the infirm. Should that you find out, there will have him enlisted between five foot and five foot. Seven wait seems to be ready spot on. They seem to be pretty convinced about the way ever where I've looked. It's all very similar saying one hundred and twenty five to possibly one hundred and forty pounds brow this particular website here has the post mortem interval. Listen a little bit longer than what we reported so far, which they haven't listed as thirty six hours to possibly up to seven days that he was killed before being found. I'm gonna go with. I really like what I was hearing from the coroner within that first week, right that first week the coroner's words always

where we believe he was. He was only there for a couple of days or who had been killed a couple of days before he was found by the two rabbit hunters. While I I'm not trying to be silly here, but it'd be tough to give an exact height because he is missing, is raised right and we don't know because I dont think that corner. I don't think their release. This information on where, where did the suffering of the feet happened? Did it happen at the angle? Did it happen low, but higher we're not really for sure that the early information was the ankles. But again that's not something that's like repeated over and over again. So when you, See that in you read that you go ok. Well I, to my notes- and hopefully I get confirmation of that later- and you don't you just don't get confirmation of it later-

well. Somebody knows something in either one of these cases and again it I came in a fall individual. If you You ve something- and maybe you knew more of and why they died. You might feel like you're gonna yourself in danger, and while we are on the topic of miss identification, we should also point out that very early on in the case, and I am sure that I mean that the police hate that this didn't work out, because it here's that they had or receive some good tipp early on in the investigation. The way that its report is says rumours, but I think that they received a tip here and maybe tip was in a form of a rumour but they're saying the rumour was The body was that of a white seville Kentucky man do not name the individual, but they did you know when we have a situation where they are not really

a whole lot of information. They are quick to come out and say we looked at that and its simply not true. It's absolutely not that person is what they state in the papers. So other case of where they may have, or at least on the public level, rumours of misidentification that this guy was possibly this missing white veal, kentucky person. Of course, these all these cases are set the all these situations are very tragic that we discuss here in the garage. It's all loss of life and love, of a family member, a loved one. But this is a little kind of extra weird angle that you don't get in other cases that we do have here in this case and its wilds I'll read it for you, it's it's nice and shore, but the sad, none, the less headline here, captain his funeral held for nameless victim and assess seven people paid their last

respects to a man. They didn't know saying but we memorialize one who we know not. This came from the chaplain that led the services for this unknown individuals, a short ceremony that was attended by detectives in members of law enforcement as wells members from the local sheriffs department, it was all attended by the coroner and representatives from the funeral home that the agreed to host this service for this unknown, vector yeah- and it's just kind of sad. You know you see these these people that went out of their way and had big hearts and heavy hearts and went to this service for, and in individual that they have never known may now, for now in their lifetime spent.

Two years and has not been identified but kudos to those people that went and paid their respects to memorialize this. This victim, this victim of a very brutal murder, very violent martyr, I'll be lucky to have seven and the visuals my funeral, I'm in a shop with one of those Michael Scott, fake heads on my right shoulder so that I could suit count is to I'll sign? The book is to different people, or maybe three people show how well shall we get in the possible theories, because there's been a lot of theories that have been discussed over the years in this davies county case and of horse allotted these theories are going to mere that of some of the theories that were discussed in the man with no hands episode. Our off the list to you, we conduct can go through them, one at a time there was a a theory that it was a satanic ritual, and this is weird because this

is rumoured to have been reported that way by law enforcement. So I I don't just throw that out there and everybody Well, we ve heard that a million times this might be something different I'd be something a little more concrete. I hate crime, a revenge killing a mob killing a sin. Oh killer and then I wrote down one of my own, which I know you will share in this idea to probably here too perpetrators, two or more perpetrators as a theory, and I base at simply off of the difficulty of getting the body however, they transported to the actual physical location. Where was ultimately found, but let's circle back to the top of that list there and will start off with with say, satanic richard That's very interesting to me, but I also want to throw this out there to look at the timeframe. Look at the data period that when this body was found and with the ample

asia with the removal of the hands and feet, it's not uncommon for people to speculate that this could be something satanic. but also its nineteen. Ninety right, this is just shortly before west Memphis, three and remember what was going on in this country at that time. There was a lot of satanic panic, There is a lot of that going on that started. It goes into reason and throughout allow the nineties, especially when you're talking about crimes it were to become by young adults or teenagers. I dont know that anybody's, expecting or suspecting young adults or teenagers to be the perpetrator perpetrators of this crime, but it's always been, ported, that that was an angle that police were working or it did. They had stated that at some point again, I'm just gonna go back to the idea of the amputation mixed with the time frame.

I could see a situation where the sheriffs Department- or somebody is saying that and then really wishing, maybe a year or two or ten years later, that they had never said that because it was just a suspicion. There was no actual evidence of that right. You would think that they would have found something at the scene to indicate satanic ritual, which They did. I mean they ve been tight lipped about this this case for thirty two years yet, could you wrote flew remind me of the exact wording that he said, law enforcement said about this cases. We did. They say weird

bizarre. He had the one officer summed it up simply by saying it's bizarre. The other officers stated that look. This could be just another brutal murder or could be a part of something that's much more sophisticated yet so again, I find that statement those terms I find that bizarre, because two young, it's like this, is brutal. This is this is gruesome. This is violent. These are the terms and I would be using when somebody sword saying. While this is bizarre, this is weird it starts making you question what else was found at the scene or what other markings are on that victims body that we don't know, so they one thing that we ve not reported yet. Is a very interesting angle in this case, is that seminal fluid was found on the victim and it was. It did not belong to the victim so

the weird angle that that provides us is this weird situation of two things in this kind of goes to the hate crime theory. So its report reported two different ways everywhere. You got that its suspected that this individual had some type of homer sex. Who counter just before being killed. And then other places its reported as it. He was sexually assaulted and then killed which to their of course or very, very different things, which also leans to the idea of a hate crime right. So if he, if he self were homosexual. Then then people org ok! Well, maybe this was some type of hate crime, but then the complete opposite of that? That would maybe he was raped or sex, He assaulted before being killed. So he'd in him choice in the matter brain so is very bizarre where you think that that that one element right there if they are able to decipher if there

able to figure out the very big difference. in those two if they have it strongly supporting one over the other. I think that did that stuff that should be released. That stuff, should have been released thirty some years ago. If they Determine it back then, because we're talking about a completely different type of perpetrator in that regard was this stuff nightmares, if you're not getting up and locking the door right now, you don't have a door with it. So far you have. You are not aware that a normally when someone would brain up some kind of satanic ritual. my ear and have to sell me pretty hard on that yeah, but because we ve been, we ve been duped by that before bright. Maybe not us personally, but at least the public is has been full by that dozens of times yeah. For me

Shame on you for me for me: never again, is it possible that some whack adieus around their praying to some golden goat and awe and they decide that. There's this ritual, where we're going to take a victim and rape them in torture them and then dispose of the body, there's a lot of wackos out there I mean we got almost six hundred episodes to prove that point and the thing with the sexual assault with The rape. That also would lead me down another avenue of potential serial killer right, because I only and throwing that out there, especially at that time yes and we're seeing where there's another victim dates dispose in a very similar way and around this, time period less than a year between the two. So the difficult thing here with these theories,

is that you don't have really a lot of information to point you in one direction. Specifically, you have a future. Good ideas to work off of what these different theories, but nothing that will point you in a very specific direction. That kind of leaves us with the idea of two other possibilities here on our theories list, captain one being ever and killing and the other beings type of mob killing yeah, maybe not ma, but some kind of organised crime see this is happens when you don't pay here, your debts off for gambling or or whatever or you do you did so thing to upset somebody in the mob that you did something against one of their family members? Maybe maybe this you know we don't the davies county. John DOE was a good person himself. We ve not jennifer him, yet the figure out what this guy was up to before getting killed and always here in these stories, o the colonel

was the nicest guy in the world. Nobody would ever want to hurt. Him lies Antonia, the problem. The problem here, as we know in the davies county John doe case at least one individual- wanted to hurt him at least one individual wanted to hurt him to do so, and we know there is at least one in a fit of relevance to hurt. There's a line man at least one with the mob thing. Usually I'm quick to kind of look away from that, but when I'm, what I'm comparing notes here, davies county, John doe in the man with no hands. I really, like there might be a little something more to that in a little more weight than we should apply to that possible theory, because it would be terrible far too transport somebody to kentucky from the great chicago area and theirs No there's mob ties to every big city in this country, the

Think, too. I know that I think this was brought up when we discuss the man with no hands. There's people outside of kentucky don't no a whole lot about this angle. But there was a very vicious group that was active years. decades ago. In that general area they went by, they were called the corn, bread mafia, which sounds like of a funny name, but I don't read up on them and you won't be laughing very long mean that I mean literally nibbling, but one angle that I do want to point out here. This kind of reminds me, let's pretend here for a minute captain that these two cases are connected. Ah, ok, My guess here is. If we went into the history of other states to find unidentified individuals, we might find cases that are somewhat similar to these two kind of we're goin with this is. It makes me think of richard plenty and I'm not saying that richard cook, linsky

old either of these individuals. What I'm saying simply is that watch the iceman tapes. This is This is one of the documentaries that we discuss years ago. You know every every year, every so often we pick our favorite true crime, documentaries and create those list, and I think it was the first time that we discuss Captain one of the documentaries on my list was the iceman tapes and this the iceman tapes originally from ninety ninety two, I believe re so of course he's locked I'm not saying that he had any involvement, but the thing that you picked up on with richard cook linsky was he's a guy that working in organized crime, and he is that he is the hit man, well. Why is he the hitman? Because this is the type of dude that if- but he wasn't paying him to kill people. He probably would be doing it for fun. He's he's is the psychopath in that group in that form,

element in their groupies, the guy that they know go to him, because you don't have a problem offering these people and then the other thing too is he talks about how he would dispose of these bodies and something very simple right. Keep it simple stupid, one thing that he pointed out there he's like look. I use this method to. I often use this method to individual, but I also use this method over and over again to dispose of of the individuals will. Why did you continue to use that that method to dispose of the individuals- and he said I looked at the interviewer like they had two heads- like their moron. He says they look like Austria because it worked it worked when I did it and it worked the first time when they trouble identifying my victim or didn't find em for months or even years. I just went ok next time. I off somebody. I'm gonna use that same method because it works one of the things that I think about, and both of these kids

says maybe They'Re- severing the hands not to get rid of that identifier, but to make a statement, because back in the day, if you stole something, they would cut your hands off or cut a hand off or chop your fingers off. So maybe that act of this crime is actually more to send a message to people yeah, it's very interesting to me and I think you might be onto something their captain, because we have other Dana fires that were not waiting other measures to carry this person, unidentified right with the man with no hands he's got extensive dental work, expensive, extensive, dent dental work so that three times ass I will try- somebody could have could have taken stuff remove those items to make it so he couldn't be ideal. I'd removed the head, if you really

If you were really dead, set on on making these individuals not identified at all there are other extremes that you could go to, but whoever killed and then Both of these individuals didn't go to those other eggs, for whatever reason they didn't take those other precautions, if you will, but they did remove the hands and both situate, and the other thing to like I got to thinking about like well. They went out of their way to remove the feet of the day. county John doe, but ever remember a case of an individual being identified by their feet. Right, right. I mean you're leaving his dna because obviously whole body, the rest of his body. Is there the feet thing really? makes me wonder what was up with the feet. Why go out of your way to remove the feet? Well, if we go back to the original idea that a lot of these steps were taken to prevent the identification of this victim? Well,

Could the foot, for whatever reason, one or both of the feed have some kind of identifier? Maybe did this innovation didn't, have normal looking feet maybe there was a tattoo on one of the feet. Maybe you know You use your imagination and you can start to see a situation where that might become important, but it doesn't appear have been important in the man with no hands case. They took place in nineteen. Eighty I have here a bed in man, and I know you like better every now and then on the? Could people say that, if betty? Well, I have you happen to be talking to a better man. So so I am banning man, but you won't say it's a problem a problem when you loose of europe, man, would you say that these again did of two weeks in a row

it's funny how this stuff works last week were talking about the boardman murder cases and if those were connected ah similar time periods, similar area some similar victim ology here, the victim ology, seems different, but d lean towards them being acted or or not connected actually lean towards them being connected and use. I and I didn't go into it. That way, writing go into looking for reasons to connect these and I'm gonna say up to that, I didn't find anything that says to me one hundred percent, that they are in fact connected, but it just seems a little convenient, too convenient to me that yeah the victim apologies weird. With the davies count John doe, we have so little information and again reported different ways that I don't believe that,

allows us to really honan on one particular thing here to say that I think the victim ology is similar or dissimilar because with didn't may have no hands according to the via cap, alert from the fbi, his approximate ages, twenty five well that certainly its within the age range of our davies, county, John doe, where we are seeing the current asian has listed at age, twenty five to approximately forty I have a difficult time with why that that rain. So that their so so many years applied to how old this guy could possibly be they're both found new both found what no hands there both found within a year. Here of one another in the same state of kentucky and it for me, there's just too many similarities for me to to get past it right. If again,

you're asking me to wage war on something we don't have a lot of information on. I guess I had to go gut feeling here. I'm guessing that they would be. I would leave, more than being connected in some form have to be commanded by the same perpetrator, especially for talking about some type of mob hit or some type of criminal groups You know I had really suspected of a drug connection with the mammoth no hands and then with the d, these county, John DOE? I just feel like. I don't know enough about who this person could have been too even hypothesize. What led to this? If I had to go with my gut feeling, the gut and but feeling I would say, connected it's it's eight months between the discovery of two of these bodies,

and I know yes, it's a hundred forty miles away so that a big distance there, but eight eight months is tough dish, I want to leave so much of a mob hit, but to me canna seems serial killer in the sense of well. I put one victim here and then I and then I don't put another victim somewhere else and I think if we don't even deeper to that area, probably will say a three hundred mile radius see if there's any other similar cases, those in individuals might have already been identified, but to see if there's anything similar one seven of the hands or seven of the feet or the way in which the bodies were dumped with the man with no hands case. I know that a lot of the listeners got on the blog and stay

It is there that the one hypothesis they would have is it made He was an undocumented worker, someone that we just don't have by information of and that's why he remains so difficult to identify to this day. His ethnic background would have been based off of. I think this was pair Bonn. They came out with the man with no hands, but some agency has stated that probably eastern european, maybe middle eastern descent for the may, with them as I have not seen any of that speculation or or information in the davies county, John doe, but where I can't offer a little bit of a little little. Light at the end of the tunnel. For both of these cases is. We know one thing with the mail with no hands,

obviously they have his dna, their working that they're trying to figure out if they can identify him using the dna. I seen that last year it was reported the dna dough network, was actively working on the man with no hands case. It was one of I think, five or six it they were discussing on the news at the time- and he was one they were actively looking into the basic report that they offered at that time was it we are getting close. to identifying him. We have not been able to get a match to an individual and unfortunately, in his case We have not been able to get a match, its close to an individual meaning they ve not matched up with apparent or a sibling. They said that their their basically at the speed bump, we can get, we feel like we're getting too distant cousin level- with the man with no hands but nothing close enough

we have any idea of of. Possibly identifying him or narrowing it down to a few individuals. Now, with the these county, John doe with our case for this week, the light The end of the tunnel with him is two fold. You have not just your victims and I like we have in the man with no hands case right. We have potential, suspect dna. And again that's why a part of me wants to go. Can we clear this up? we do know. Maybe they don't know. Maybe that's why you don't want to releases information if you dont know be a responsible, but if they do no if they had some way of determining this sexual salt verses, consensual. Well, if it especially for sexual, all been that changes everything for me because now that goes from a possible of europe and ship or romance with

other dna, that they have with the davies county or its suspect dna So that's the light at the end of the tunnel in the davies case that one we could identify this individual it. Possibly we have the science to do it were working on it. We know that are actively working it, because is identified him in ending cleared up. So we know that It's been active at times. Its throughout the last thirty two years. It's a case. Still on the minds of kentucky state police, their proper still doing work on it, and so we could have a situation very soon where either they identify one, the victim himself or the suspect and his ace in either way is a huge leap when they were when they were scrapped. the ground lookin for bread crumbs before identify

this individual or the dna that could lead to this aspect. Huge leap huge break The case either way the there is a tip line, a tip phone number for the kentucky state police. If anybody has any information in the daviess county, John doe case for the grant county john doe case, the one that we referring to as the man with no hands. You can use this number for either of those cases. And again this will take you to the kentucky state police. The number is one eight hundred two hundred and twenty two

five. Five. Five one of their you so much for joining us here in the grounds we just like you smell, we liked your musk makes you tell a friend we want. There must be in the garage as well colonel do we have recommended reading for the beautiful people this week this week- and this is very fitting to this week's cases Well, we are recommending a book called the lost family held. Dna testing is up ending, who we are author, Libby copeland does a deep dive into the subject and a deeply reported look at the rise of home genetic testing, as well as looking into genealogy buffs, the science of dna and the business of companies like ancestry and twenty three in me make sure you check out the lost family by Libby copeland. You can fly

that wonderful title and many more on our website. True crime garage dot com. Another thing you can find at the website is a link to off the record. That's our opponents show we do case updates. We get a little silly up here in the garage. It's a great time. Please join us. It's five dollars a month. You get every show on stitcher premium, which has tons of content for five dollars a month. You can find that programme garage dot com until next will be good, be kind in dover.

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