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yourself, but to be yourself here. Is the cap yet call it a comeback. Its to be seen good to see you thanks for listening thanks for the french. This week we are very excited to be featuring bourbon county brand bananas foster by the brilliant brewers over a goose island beer company. This is a delicious and decadent american imperial stout aged in bourbon barrels with bananas. the bark? I think it is a little boozy which I like, but it also has a nice sweet finish. This is an adult deserve. In a glass HIV Bv, is high at thirteen point, percent and the bottle big at sixteen wait. Nine ounces so drink this one at home in your garage garage, grade

let's ring in the new year with some trumpets, please five out of five bottle caps of provo ad here are a couple of thank yous to our beer fund. France. First up a long distance cheers to jarboe kula over in german in the big we like to chip to heather in norcross ga next up we have low anna and transylvania and last, but certainly not least, we have melody and riverside california. Be new year to everyone all around the world. Let's all pull together and make twenty twenty four the best year yet and all strive to be our best cells. you can't tell captain the colonel. Well, under the web, but like boys, demand ban were kicking it just for you. so it ring in the new year with the first be w w in beer run. If you

more true grabbed ride. Your boss make sure you subscribe to our show off the record on pay. or apple subscription and colonel that's enough bees all right, everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true cry. richard alan is charged with killing abbe williams and libby german hagen.

Realistic sacrifice. Tied to Odin is important to this court document. Richard Allen's defense attorneys claim there was an obscene amount of evidence linking organism to the crime scene, where the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German were found. The according to ireland's defensive attorneys evidence at the crime scene like sticks and branches, arranged in symbols around the girls' bodies and another symbol on a tree nearby point to Abby and Libby being sacrificed, in quote some sort of pagan ritual. The main deity is the god odin

today the police have become popular with white supremacy groups. Richard Allen is charged with killing Abby Williams and Libby Jr Allen confessed to murdering the girls to his wife. Talking to her on the phone from prison from prison. Allen confessed from prison on Monday february, thirteenth, two thousand and seventeen. at two o, seven p m fourteen year, liberty, German posted a picture of her best friend thirteen year old. Abigail Williams to snapchat a photo of abigail No dear friends in some relatives as abbe shows a stir walking across the moaning I bridge located in a rural part of carroll county indiana liberty fondly

libby by many of those closest to her captured the image of her friend and using her cell phone post the picture on social media. The two girls were not heard from again after at the family searched deep into the dark night. Looking for their girls, sadly It would not be until the next day a little afternoon when the girls bodies were found about it half mile or so away from the moaning I bridge, someone had moved them from the very public property of the bridge to one of the quiet, rarely travelled corners of wrong, Logan's, large, privately owned property. Quickly rolled a double homicide and assert for the killer or killers started in cairo county and then spread across the nation, after many twist

and a nearly six year investigation involving several law enforcement agencies, which included the indiana the police in the f b I and arrest was announced was on october thirty. First, two thousand and twenty two that the indian the police finally announced that local carol county? indiana resident richard Alan have been charged with two counts of murder and the case he was in his forties at the time of the murder and worked at a delphi, Indiana see vs store. He admitted to least detectives, but he was there at the odin high bridge on the day that the girls were last seen while he had it's too being there at the scene around the time the girls were last heard from his pleaded not guilty charges of murder the tree In turn, we continue in this case even

for the rest, the finally came, after so many months years and prayers. There's been questions of the suspects, sanity and safety introduction of a cold killer, ritualistic murders, theory suspected corrupt and within any correctional facilities and leaked to the public murder scene photographs we are here to bring you up to speed,

This is true crime garage. The richard Allen is charged with killing Abby Williams and libby german alive confessed to murdering the girls to his wife, while talking to her on the phone from prison, the prison allen confess the longtime listeners of off. The record are already aware of the gentlemen joining us here in the garage day that goes by the name. Fig we've talked with him. He's been one of our allies over the years. In this very strange bizarre delphi, double murder case. That's been ongoing. Unfortunately, since two thousand and seventeen when Abby and Libby work-

and now that we sit here all these years later within arrest. There's been many updates over the past few months in some strange news coming out of the indiana state regarding this case, and we thought that we bring fig into the garage with us to have a interesting discussion about all of the updates in things that have happened in this case, and some of it is a bit of a delay. In and the not so speedy process of of the justice for these girls. It's been delayed for so long now. Some of it is worth diving in in very interesting topics of discussion regarding this yes and for me a lot of these topics came about in september of twenty twenty. Three and as we close out two thousand and twenty three and welcome in twenty twenty four, we also have some interesting court proceedings that will be taking place. Hopefully,

January scheduled for january, and I'm hoping for no more delays in this case, so welcome once again into the garage fake, thanks for four have em guys, pleasure. Yes, lots and lots of things went on with this case and captain one thing we wanted to talk about. In this case it's been ongoing since the or early goings, in this case. Is the social media madness and I know figure seeing certain things that maybe we haven't seen and we ve sir, We see our fair share or much more that we wanted to see throughout the years, but let's talk a little bit about these social media. Madness that surrounds this case, yeah. I think what happened with this case. People got into it good intentions may be wanting to help where people started identify a person of interest per se and then once the richard Alan arrest happened and if they ve already stated who there

and of interest was in power look on social media. Are you tube podcast then wanted it turn out that way. I think what happened, was they didn't want to lose? Maybe they're listeners or credibility so instead I'm just saying hey, maybe I'm wrong because we didn't have other evidence seem like that. well down on whoever that person of interest was so instead of am being wrong. What did it was say? Nobody law enforcement is wrong. There there. The problem, not me, I'm not knowing one so just turned into this almost as game and edges. It's been ass. He ever since the richard Alan arrest and annoy you guys know I mean you have talked about it several times to have this position as spectator really to say that you know more than law law enforcement in this case- is just absolutely ridiculous. There's no sense to, but I think we talked, turn the wheel of fortune analogy on the phone where, if you are looking at the letter board there as a

outsider looking in, we only have one or two letters up on that will a fortune board and law enforcement skinny, lot more than us, how could they guess wrong make mistakes sure, but they have allowed more information than we do so sometimes we have to drop the ego and just follow their lead but also, if they are making a mistake now we can, we can realise, that, while, in the other thing to you, you guys are both spot on their yes laud forspent does have more than we have. Will they have they made mistakes? The I think we ve seen mistakes or errors that they ve made along the way. But you know one of my favorite quotes is in an air, only becomes a mistake when one fails to correct it, and so we ended up with rest in this case, and I think it's a lot of what you're saying fig as far as the motivation behind some of these really loud voices in full

lay them loud, annoying voices to me it's we, we beg them, were pleading for an arrest for all these years and we finally get one and you're right in it's like. I think,

for some people in this is not the only case that I've seen this type of behaviour. This type of behaviour is amplified time stan, but I think that it's one of those situations where you have this polarizing case this case the cap, debates of a town, a city, a region, even parts of the nation, and because it becomes such a big case on that front, I think that there are some parts, small, very small percentage of people out there. They think that this case has to be something incredibly complicated. It has to be. There must be a reason why took forever for their too to be an arrest was made frankly that this is not the movies. Ok, yes,

Are there complicated cases out there? Yes are their complicated, complex perpetrators, murder suspects out there? Yes, the the zodiac killer, comes to mind right away completely off the rails, complex individual. It's it's me, in a game out of his killings. This, unfortunately, is and I say, unfortunately, just simply because it happened, because the law loss of life here, but its we said this from from jumped street this case to me, never appeared to be that complicated. The end The geisha was going to be complicated, but the case itself never appeared to be that complicated from day one it appeared to me to be a sexually motivated homicide and likely, I thought, given the location, the venue, if you will

that, it was probably a stranger on stranger crime and I say that not because I felt that right away, but after days of this thing within days of this thing not being solved not having a hot lead on a good suspect that fell to me, like we're charting into the waters of stranger on stranger crime, and I think that the general public need to pump the breaks a little bit and understand how complicated that is for law enforcement. So if you wanted a complicated case, if you wanted a complicated suspect good news, you got one. You got one stranger stranger crimes are incredibly difficult for law enforcement to to crack and for for reasons that are both obvious and not so obvious to the general public, but you know that

that drives me mad is dead, the leaps that some people are willing to make to support their argument. This is not your case. This is not your burned bear. This is not your great war that you are fighting ok, this you. You want to tell me that the dead man who who This is this is gonna started, leading to our next topic here, but you wanted I'll be that a dead man that was financially not sound. That was how do we? around the edges an alley difficulties with relationships. You wanna tell me that he had such a. He has a grip and power hold on so many people of this community that we gotta start getting into some weird and bizarre crazy conspiracy theories. It just doesn't add up man.

Doesn't add up. I think that's what happens when you start with the conclusion. You start with YAP rama. indeed this and then you train villain. Many blanks to make point that direction instead of just king added, illicit glee and sing or taking a new evidence, to me the richard Eleanor S, that is new evidence that needs to go into here. You know your home thought process where remember the day. The richer down was arrested at thought was awesome how Becky posted that that image of the old bridge guy scarce, like we got em, and then I saw other people posting. It's absolutely not him still run logan, it's not richard Ellen. On the day. Why of his arrest, when it was announced like? How would you no, that no one knew was guilty or innocent. At that point, let's just stepped back. Let's have it animation come in now decision so like when the the probable cause effort

David for his arrest came out there. I got some more information, then, while the sky was on the bridge and There is a picture of a man on the bridge eddie. I then start logically piecing things together and making indecision? in a sad state of affairs and really some bizarre and disgusting behavior? As far as I'm concerned, you know before even before Richard Allen was arrested. I spoke to several people in the carroll county that lived in Carroll county and they told me nick. You won't believe, what's going on here. There are we, we have. You know flyers still justice. Further girl seeking justice for the girls help wanted information wanted. Do you know these this man, those type of flyers posted up around delphi and throughout carol count and I had several individuals independently of one another- tell me the exact same thing. Can you believe that there are people in this community there are going around in taking down,

flyers before the arrest of richard down, mind you taking down these flyers because we are telling everyone I'm taking it down, because the real killer is dead, and here here's from where I sit, though fig and in captain what I see as far as the social media madness goes, the it seems like the loudest most aggressive behavior is coming from those that aren't They don't know the families that are not from delphi that are not from karel county that are from other states. In fact, are you guys doing the same thing for sure it it's? Where that that happening in its another way of saying it. It's all the people who guest wrong under the killer was. I would say that they are very

I'll go and they're, making the noise they're trying to prove that corruption took place and adjust its appalling, and I know what you're thoughts our captain yeah. I think I differ from you guys little bit because I'd You think these voices on the internet or through youtube's, whether its through podcast or where it says, people making on line it, I think a niche lee all this came from, because law enforcement is asking the public for help. So people fell invested into case, and then I think also law enforcement has made a couple missteps we The change we had they release once gets. We have a change in sketch, they don't give really much of an explanation, doesn't seem like they give the family much about explanation of why the the sketch change and then when they do make arrest they made a misstep by saying well, there also

might be somebody else involved. So anybody that made a prediction or said there's, a bunch of evidence that points to to toronto, or two some other individual that was there that day, Their argument. Well hail enforcement, told us it could be richard Alan plus somebody else. Now our people about it, the wrong way or, for speaking, the wrong way. Possibly by I do Initially, all this came from a place of wanting to help and to want to find justice for ibm and that's where my head was too. I thought that's how I explained away. or rationalized some of that behavior away for the longest time, these are people that just want to help and but but then it continued after the arrest in and actually it changed in in morphed into something different and that

is surprising is shocking. Some of the behaviour- and I dont want to really get to a point where we start singling out certain types of behaviour. I think that the people that are super dialed into this case, know what we're talking about it and we need a kind of stay with a broad brush here, because there are some pretty hard core people in different realms of the internet being incredibly aggressive. Some Talks of even persons, spying on people close to the case document their movements via pictures in journals and in time cards and things of that you're in, and I dont know that we ve been. I know that some pod casters and youtube and have been kindness singled out.

I know that we have, or we ve been mentioned in that group. I don't wanna. Frankly, I dont want to fall out of favour or become a target of of any of these groups kazoo there who know who knows what they they would be capable of, but it is just surprising, me to see that people so far away geographically to the case, are spending this much time and try and is to discredit. So many people, then, are close to the case. and frankly, the most appalling part. Is this still the the disgusting? rumours that they're trying to create about some of the family members of the victims, that for me, I will never ever be able to understand. And how anybody could could do that could say those things that I guess it did they. They must

have lived such a nervy life and never have experienced any kind of tragedy and all that they that, because of the Maybe they ve completely lack compassion for their fellow man. I am, like captain said. Maybe it did start off with trying to help, but and eventually became about these individuals and in themselves, and their ego then being right, but I think What were alluding to here is there's a line that could be crossed when you're meddling into a case and you live in a different county- different state. I mean it doesnt matter, you you Listen just meddle with with any case, don't interfere. Let law enforcement do their job. If you have tips tipp the men but to go in and contact you the prosecution of the defence. Just a train. You know, a decision or or just to meddle with the case

you really don't understand it. It just becomes very problematic and look what happened that a trail got delayed a year now fig e g. I think you know more about this than I do. Maybe I'm miss speaking so correct me if I'm wrong, but these votes Since these ideas, these other suspects is it. Is it true that the fence reached out to different content creators to basically trying to create It is for their defence yeah, don't know who reached out to who first so could have been the content of the content. it is reaching out to them, but yeah? There was definitely contracts put in place and some some content creators were helping out with the defence team. I headed verified even knew that and team was gonna be removed about a week before it actually happened. because someone, let me know

they got a cease and desist letter. They are he's content creators and talking about so there the cease and desist for it was announced that they were gonna to that the attorneys were to be removed from the case. Why I'm pretty sure there are working with them, I don't know if I have a big issue with that- and in here why this is my understanding of that situation. It see it does seem bizarre. I want I want to throw that out there, but My understanding of the situation is this, and this is pretty simplistic here, but that you don't want one defence can always be an alternate, suspect or a complete alternate theory presented by the defence opposing the theory or an suspect put forward by the state. That's not unheard of from.

I understanding of it the defence team, the original defence team will get into more that in a minute there were reaching out, do not just contact creators but but also, I believe, even chat room chat groups and- you kind of collective lee when I should say, is organised and collect. I can't log all of the other discussed theories and suspects out there along the way leading up to the arrest of richard Alan is that is that a bow right, fig yeah, and about saying it wasn't smart to do because you have one of the defence strategies that will get into is it theories and good storytelling, and that's what looking for air looking for people who could tell a story and who, frankly, no the case, than them so gets into our saying these people who follow the case so closely. They ve told

lies told stories, and maybe some of them seem pretty credible, so they already done some groundwork filling in these gaps or something plausible, so the defence this contacting them we're getting contact by them and said you help us we restore together. I think that's kind of would have The. The show is sponsored by better help. New year knew me, I think not theirs. May things I love about myself, but there are a few. things that I need to change around the new year's we get obsessed with how to change ourselves instead of just expanding. We already do right, maybe I only one part of your space, but you want to tackle another maybe you're, taking your supplements every morning and now you

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Well, those that, like you said latch onto a suspicion, fell head over heels in love with the one particular suspected that, when the arrest of international and came out in it. Wasn't there sus back than they are they they can't? They can't go through the break up there. They are complete rack and mass than they have to convince everybody that, though they were right. There suspect this is the one that is the most simple thing in the world. We ve said, if, since day, one in the garage, the first thing that you don't do as an arm chair sleuth

a webs a web detective. Whatever you want to call us you, don't you don't find your suspect and attempt to build the case around them. I mean we. We spoke with Johnny Anderson last month about the germany ramsay case because he was so close to lose smith, who we admire and respect his career. So much unfortunately, are ip loose meant is no longer with us and he worked the job any ramsay gaze as good as anybody. In my opinion, he had a list two pages, long of suspects. In that case, that's what that's? What a real detective? Does you you? You don't exclude anybody until you can exclude them. You

always make the mistake. You always make the greatest of errors when you home in on a specific individual, and then you want to put together a powerpoint presentation of. Why he's the best suspect? You know I'm not trying to to pat myself on the back here too much, but we talked about the door. by case odd, true crime garage for five years, I wrote a book about. It never mentioned anybody by name ever ever once, because that's the biggest harm and foul you can make in any of these investigations. People would ask me who's your guy and after the arrest. What were you aware that they do that? but how it was a good suspect. No, no, I wasn't hell. No, the police were even aware that he was a good suspect and an eye I agree with the captain, one hundred percent. I think that I don't think that that was. I dont think its law enforcement fault for saying that other people

could step? We ve not rule out the possibility that other players could still be involved. I dont think its. Therefore, I agree with what he says. I think that that is is a bit of the genesis of some of of the people that are still bargain and hawk and his loud as they can about their suspect opposed to richard Al but I think that that was a reality that maybe people were willing to accept, but the Science of a and their investigation, leading up to the day that they arrested richard Alan, it was an incomplete, investigation. It was an incomplete narrative that richard Alan killed two girls in the woods that day, it was an incomplete theory that they and they had a lot of blanks. Still in that theory, it wasn't that they locked in on Richard Alan and that date they they built a case against him. No, they decided to go and get a search warrant and found evidence. It said

He had to bid you. He was either there or he killed them there, there's no ifs or buts about it. He was either there or he killed them. Now we have to make an arrest, and so I think that's why they say that that was a variation to me of saying that our investigation into this specific individual is incomplete and there's there's reasons that we condemn. Get into. I think they say that I've seen prosecutor said in other cases too, that there there might be other actors involved, in the Steven avery case, even after they arrested him and his nephew. I read that the prosecutor, they still said hey. There might still be other people involved, the reasons why they want to keep it open I just saying right when they make an arrest. Yet that's it. We knew it was him and stolen else. Thank you good bye, but they still want to keep the door open and I think sometimes, that phrasing is confusing for the

because it makes it seem like theirs and another individual, that's responsible for the murders or was there, and when they say that might be another actor involved. It could just be that I new this information that richard Alan told, maybe he told his daughter- maybe he told one of his friends there, be another actor involved as far as maybe not so much the the killings themselves, but maybe covering up and in helping protect richard Alan. So he doesn't and then there's some people out there that are scratching their heads and they say captain. How does that work? Well, let me give a a prime example in a a real life, true example of how that works, how another player could be involved in the april tinsley murder before they finally found her killer? They were looking for and trying to crowdsource, and using the public to try to help find the murderer of April tensely, and I like I

Examining it from this angle, because it's it before before. with the murders of Libby and Abby. I think one could make a strong argument that the murder of April tinsley and probably the burger chef murders, were the two or two of the most infamous unsolved homicide cases in the state of indiana so late they would arrest and individual, and this was only after doing the familial dna, which was not something that were that they were typically doing in indiana and the stain of indiana prior to the. So when they finally make the arrest, we learn a couple things that were possibilities in, in this case

So John miller is the one who is arrested. He is arrested in July of two thousand and eighteen prior to that they had done. They had gone to every where you could think of to try to get help in solving this little girl's, murder. Okay. So this was investigated by the f b. I they were brought in. They went to a Most wanted crime watch daily. The genetic detective show was was after the fact, after the arrest, but they reached out to to every one that they could to try to crowd sources. The Americas most wanted on the april tensely case is fascinating to watch. That is when they start really telling the public like hears a bunch of new information, that's new to the public, but not new to our invest. Geisha. We been holding on all this stuff for four years, hoping

something will come of it, and now we ve decided last resort public. Please help us so in one of them that the bits of information that was new to the public was a picture so that this criminal, this murder John miller, he took a picture of himself exposing his the lower half of his body and left it with a threatening note to a little girl years later. They do based off of scientific evidence that that know that threatening no was written in left by the in person that killed April tensely. In the background of that photograph, you could see a bedspread police work were honing in on that and telling the public look either. I to find the man in this photograph, or could you identified this bedspread that you can see behind the individual? Another play?

involved and we do not know because John Miller has never expanded on this and his mother is dead. She passed before he was around did, but it later came out there believed that his mother recognise the bedspread in the picture on the news and called him not knowing. We cannot say one hundred percent conclusively that she knew that did he kill April tensely, but what we can say is we know based off of several sources she whole John miller? If you still got that bedspread, you should probably get rid of it, so that would be an example of players involved without having one hundred percent direct knowledge that the person was the actual killer right

So I guess you're making great points its because there's other bad actor doesn't mean it. There's a murderer, another person involved and the murders accessory after the fact there's there's other criminal activity, such as obstruction of justice, failure to report a crime aiding and abetting tampering with evidence with information such as the mom and even financial support. If someone helped, you know with what money so that they could get away or hide out or logistical support for things like that that that are crimes, and that, your participating in the murders, but not by doing the actual, murdering doing national, murdering and they also say bad actors because We keep investigation open, which is smart, because you don't wanna, get told, we alluded to earlier about, I say

There was tunnel vision and they didn't do due diligence and all these other suspects that they were locked in their law enforcement were locked in on Logan and then look at any one else, because defence will use it against you later on in court also, why you say, there's other bad actors involved because it keeps investigation open. Like you said it, I could open up more tips. More witnesses, might come forward when you give out certain information, like in the case that you mentioned resource allocations, money on foresman, it's it's a bit. this and if you say the cases, closed war, they're gonna, take out funding, they're gonna think that no known you no longer need. funding to support this case. So you dont want that you want to keep getting fun so keep doing investigations. Keep going through tat sometimes might need even more resources once it wants. An arrest is made and yeah. So those are cut a reason to say that there are other bad actors involved and that you want to keep investigation open in all

Other possibilities that you just mentioned their fig makes me wonder about a very specific item that the state would love to have in this case and on basing this off of the search warrants that were for wrong logan's property and the search warrant for richard out This house, if you read through, if you read word for word through those search warrants through those affidavits, you will find that police work looking for a specific luck, electronic device that yet you agree with me on that big, a specific electronic device that they did not find at rod logan's or they would have arrested him to my knowledge. They have not found that item at richard Alan's house, either

and so where we say there could be somebody who's done something. In this case I hear we sit. We wonder what's up with that electronic device in his at something that will we will hear about- and I hate a phrase it this way, but should thing ever get to trial, and that's the thing we don't know yet what they found at richard Alan's house. That's that's what I wouldn't that's what I want to know what what items did they actually find? We know where it was There was the items that they took, but what did they find on those that still unknown they took Our drive to computers, they took drives. They took a bunch. Cell phones knives, but we don't know yet if one of those were the murder weapon, if maybe they're electronic device in other found, evidence on our monitors

last drives or even in his car that they looked at bay. Another swathed seat belt think they swathed in the trunk of his car may he put the murder weapon in there and they used. Luminol name got a hit and they found something. We still don't know why I'd love to hear the confession to his wife and to his wife and his mom, and I mean yes, current context, matters for sure. I want to hear too so I'm trying not to make too much judgement but, as I sit and try to think how do you say it five and six times You know the defence acknowledge this, and the prosecution and knowledge is. How do you do that? Five or six times like without being incriminating leg? Is it again Are you joking five to six times? Are you being sarcastic five or six times like? How does that go down without being incriminating? Of yourself, without really trying to confess,

and I'll here. Well, false confessions happen all the time I don't know about all the time. But that's usually when you're confessing to law enforcement area, interrogation or false fashion is some loony person calling up. that they did it now confessing over the on to your wife and mother- that's a lot different after you. Been a rested and incarcerated for that has specific groups, and I, like I, love that you say fake than your presented with this idea from others. A false confessions happen all the time, I wish you can you imagine if they did happen all the time? How messed up to the justice system would be? We Nothing would ever get the court right. I don't think people realize how many people get arrested for murder per year in the united states, and you start looking at the stats on false confessions. It's probably smaller than people think so. Then we get this it interesting information we're in a back up to september. Right so may delay.

september. This openness theory comes out and what that leads into is some discover. Or photos that had leaked an early october. So, I'll, give you the kind of short of it and then we'll get into this mess here. So the defense attorneys for Richard Allen. They in September the sent out this memorandum in support of a franks hearing that they were requesting so during this memorandum or throughout this memory and they are outlining and alternative murder theory that the girls were killed in rilke ritual eliciting fashion by members of a white supremacist called called owners later prosecutor nick mc leland for in a comment to the media in which he called the theory quote fanciful the fence

for social media to devour and quoth, he described the defence teams, one hundred and thirty six page memorandum, as quote colorful, dramatic and highly unprofessional. Now this the timing of this sucked on my end right because I went out to crime con late cept, yeah, my book, the delphi murders came out late April, early may, and so this this bit of information was not It was. It was not in a form that was fully digestible. I would say that's out like the catalogue it at the time going into crime cod. But this was the question that I think I got hit with the most while there was. What do you think of this odin ism stuff and if I had to let's pretend that I was doing like a taking up all right and I'm just simply basing this off of very brief com

patients, because I did not want to have conversations with people about this particular item of the case when, as I said I had. I catalogued it as not fully digestible at the time right and I do not love to engage in depth come in depth conversation about something that I have not had the time I or given the information or materials to review beforehand. But if I were to have taken a pole, I would say that out of all if the people that I spoke to or that asked me a question about it, I would say about fifteen per cent seemed to believe in it. Maybe twenty twenty five per cent dismissed it and then everybody else was in the I didn't really know what to make of it, and I was enough. I was in a venue that the hand over

thousand people the love to talk. True cried, so I was in there place just at the wrong time. What word? What we're your guises? I guess first, maybe you're initial reaction to this information when it came out and then how do you feel about it since then figure our guests will with you, I'm whenever there's no information, I I take it in like all right. Let's, let's I'll, just anderson that this was written by the defence and they obviously have motivation to make their client look innocent. Like that, Back of my mind, but I read through it and it was. It was a story. And since I kind of new some of the people who might have been involved with this and heard some of their stores before its kind of some recycled things

I was just like well words that evidence if there's multiple people there than there should be more likely that dna left there. Could you place these people at the crime scene? Or their witnesses who saw multiple people adjust it seem very likely because the more complex the more people- involved. I think the probability ever being likely go down. Oh, I thought it was unprofessional, especially when they were they a necessarily kept saying that no abbe, kill those slow and agonizing unjust things that didn't add any value to the motion that there trying to write they didn't get to it. At the very end of it. and thirty six pages and just the that the title of a man fears of a pagan, norse religion called odin ism hijacked by white nationalist ritualistically. professor libyan abbe, a national enquire just popped in my head when I first read that and its

yeah, you have to explain: why would white naturalists kill two way, girls, explain that end, Was this a ritual like ours? they do it. Is it when's the last time that it happened? Was this the first time. Since, since we know, the family spoke out said that this trip that the girls took to the trails was kind of spontaneous and it was they weren't really surety. Libby was ensure shed a ride, so they show up right. So how? If, if it was this, you know ritual they didn't have the victor planned out like how would they know that libyan abbe we're gonna, be there after they said think up there, just hoping that two girls to Girls would walk across. I mean it just I dunno it. It in ass the bs metre. For me, it was a lotta bs were in Could you explain to the audience this? This was not the first time that you ve heard of this theory.

So there's been, it's been talked about, especially like, like the fbi on a tree? Is it an f? Is it blood spatter? No one. No really knows people's minds, run wild. So before this came out, I heard about it. and this will kind of get into some the leaks, because the leaks that we talk about it. It wasn't just the photos, the crime scene, those there was other leaks, and this was the beginning of it, or I heard this may be started in june or July, and definitely align september. That that fence was riding the story and there I blame it. On organism and I thought I was a joke. I we all get sick. Lots of stuff and lots of things and rumours and add a go back after the think him out? Look it but get the emails like well, ok, they were right. but this is one thing that was made clear where I'd I thought it was a joke and I didn't even pay much attention to until it came out.

There was rumours that that this was possibly connected to biker gang and that came out. Years ago and- and I think some people then took that area than morphed it into this organism. Theory at others. Your gang stuff, just people. They see if on tv v, because remember that did that that motorists, go run candidate and tribute of the girls and people like ours, gotta be a bike and just because I saw bikers are on tv and they tie and the mass, because they watch sons of anarchy and they think that bikers mean drugs and there's a history of drug abuse in the area so they just try to connect all these things and it there's no there's no evidence, there's nothing that places those people at the crime scene. I get. Does Richard Alan's shell casing

one thing you know, I know the captain noses because of his lengthy music career in I know he's played in similar gigs that evolved this kind of effort, but I think that something that one thing that the general public may not be fully aware of. Is it these? These biker runs when you're doing a fundraiser. There incredibly valuable. They are very charitable groups and, if you're really trying to raise money, quick for for something. That is as a great way to kick start. Your fund raising efforts is, with these differ different biker groups, the biker runs and things of that nature s so the the odin theory is what the defence try to use to come up with

compelling story to create an alternative theory and they made it more like a press release because the beginning of that memorandum, the heard three six page manifesto as they call it, is that says. Have you never heard of the case before it starts with a statement like that. Meaning its obvious are trying to get out of the public, because, of course, of whose meant just to go strictly to the courts. people who are supposed to only read it. They ve heard of the case before I believe the prosecutors podcast did a great job of breaking down What the motion was supposed to be about, but this was simply just for the defence to put out alternative narrative, and I think one of the brilliant things that it did

Was we any scene this and in other bio picks with like oj simpson and in other cases like that, we all have to defend everything. We have to tell a better store and I think one of the brilliant phase that they did was name the names that they did name start diving into richard Alan online? There's not a lot there. Some people they named there's a lot. There there's a lot of weird stuff and theirs. Lot of weird online activity by these individuals and so get the public. I mean they name names and then the public then goes it looks into these individuals and goes on these guys, similar crazy. Yet that's a good point thing. They named people that were weird and to this organism stuff? The main point and the day named I've heard of before and always had it. Bye.

and then they even mentioned in the memorandum. While this person had an alibi, they were at work in those on video like at least a car was so and they brought up charles manson after that. Well maybe, if he wasn't, there may be, was in other master. Behind in had other people, it was bidding forum. So it is they got like dating even fully believe it then you had an alibi and then they said, one of the other gentlemen, whose name names was had a really weak alibi because he was at home and home Is that really weak alibi? And then they proceeded to give rick alan's alibi, setting that rich Ellen was at home. So, like yours, it's a week, alibi for one guy, but then by you give rick Alan during the day, the burners was he was at home, so the kind of contradicted themselves a little bit a memorandum? What This whole idea, I think, was the I hear

I think the seed was planted with some people way back when, when the previous prosecutor, robber, ives annex several interviews, he says it there, signatures at the crime scene. The crime scene was odd. It seems like everybody Not just honed in odd, but they they heard that loud and clear that statement from Robert ives loud and clear what they didn't, what they didn't hear or when a lot of the people did failed to here is. He follows that statement up with saying well at most murder scenes there's a lot of things that are odd and that that is so true and given the venue, given that this is an out door scenario. We are going to you, one would anticipate seeing different aspects of this crime scene than one would in an indoor.

Would seen wheat. We have that seed that is planted with some and I would like holy shit these by the gray. Of god to sticks, fell on each other in a in in this form I did on the ground and holy hell? It must mean something: it's I don't I I'm with you think I thought that I agree with what prosecutor nickname in his saying that it's a fanciful defence for the social for social media to devour and devour they did it, was colorful. As he said, it was dramatic, as he said highly, professional- I don't know it's, it is their job to defend this individual. It is their job to to present other theories, and maybe even other suspects and here's what's weird like

so if they, you know they are reaching out there talking in their kind of cataloguing a collective of other theories and suspects that things like that. What's interesting about this, this theory and using this want because that's what they did. Ultimately, they chose this theory over several others, but this would also provide. Something that many of the other theories does not provide. One at present provides an alternative, suspect suspects, an alternative motive and alternative, here. It is, but it also now tells the public. Not only did they get the wrong guy, but the guy that they got locked up, he's a victim to hear of it I'm too in this fight a little spot in your heart for this guy. What here's? What I think they did I think they started going through every pod cast every youtube channel every online forum and said what

story. What narrative can we tell them? also will account for one Our client has already done. Our client is now arrested. Arclight has now confessed to me The boy, individuals. How can we we need to find a narrative. There also will account for why he did this. Why did he confess why you only confessed because, these members of the organism are connected with law enforcement and connected with Prison guards in prison guards basically forced him to confess, and it's it's up. The story is lunacy but they had to find a narrative what you said they had to do their job and they found the story that basically connects all the dots you have to

really go out on a limb to believe all this stuff. They prior realise that people don't pay much attention to detail because in it statement about the member and I'm about to prison guards, kind of threatening, rick Alan there's a footnote on that page, footnote fifteen their basically says well, this never actually happen, but it could have happened so people skip that footnote over and just like all see the guard certain terms. I now read the whole page, the footnote at the bottom there snaky, It says that that it actually happen, but it could have happened. Well, if we want to go down the road of every time that a member of the corrections or an inmate, Or somebody else being housing jail threaten somebody being a cheap accused of killing a child or children that there must be some guy.

it or conspiracy involved. That's a commonplace thing that happens in not just carol county indiana. It happens very where in damn near every country on this planet, when you have a person accused of these types of crimes. It's not terribly uncommon for them to be threatened or me even harassed. I look I can't the inmates population. I wish the corrections. Members are correct, It would not do it, but look at happens. It's it it's in its going to continue to happen, and I love what you said. Therefore, because that's the thing when I thought ok right after crime con, I told several people there that if they really put the bare enough, I said look. This is all I have not had time to. One hundred percent

Go through everything that is out there at the moment, because I think this actually came out on the day that I was traveling to orlando, and so I'm trying to pick up bits and pieces of it as best that I can, because I kept getting asked questions about it, but I, when digging into it, I same thing: it's like okay, cool. You guys released three hundred and thirty six pages, are supposed to be in support of this theory and while why you should get this francs hearing which, which initially, correct me. If I'm wrong thing that the franks hearing was to dispute, did they should have gotten the job search warrant for richard Allen in the first place and so but within this one hundred and thirty page document you molly We'll times you contradict yourself also say like it is our Even we found reason to believe this, but all the

also no evidence to support this like what, like. So we're just gonna pull shit out of thin air now and had presented in a court document. I mean and kind of worse than that is when they see that there were that they try to connect them. The crime scene that the odin folks and the one guy look like there placing the most blame on at the mental capacity of seven or eight year old, lived a hunt thirty miles away and have a car that person just seem like that in Heaven. If autumn, so what did was they. They said that there were horns placed at the at the crime scene, because this individual said that he helped placed horns on one of the victims, heads so horns or antlers, something like that and that we'll get into the crime scene photo staff, but that's just not true. Your word

their work, any horns or amateurs what Everybody for join us here in the garage for this delphi murders, update, join us back here in the garage for part to, and you know what to do be good behind

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