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welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening. This is the show hosted by two guys just living on the edge of a lightning bolt. I'm Nick- and he is the captain- and let me tell you it's electric bogey woogie you, as can be seen in it's good, to see you things for listening and thanks for tom of friends, tonight. We are drinking avalanche and pale ale by smoky mountain brewery, garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five. This is dry pale, ale, featuring a fantastic bouquet of cascade hops and has a beautiful, deep gold color

a wonderfully pronounced hop palaver, and this week's beer was brought to us by these beautiful creatures. First up we have lonnie and sedona woolly washington, the big shouts of rachel and amy in lincoln nebraska, and let's go all the way out of wellington, new zealand and say hi to lucy and Charlie, who says true crime in chill forever out of richard and patent ruse, wheezy in and cheers to tracy from dallas taxes and, last but not least, robber, who is on the road truck and in the netherlands. Thanks everybody for filling up the fridge for this week show if you want to was that with next week, show go to true crime, gorazde com and click on the donor, but and why you're over at the website, make sure you sign up on our mailing list, as we do send out notices about when we have sales on something on the a site where you get to know? First, that's right

at an that's enough of the business, everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime: the great smoky mountains, our mountain range rising along the tennessee north carolina border and south eastern united states. They

or a sub range of the epp. action, mountains and form part of the blue ridge, physio graphic province. The range is sometimes called the smoky mountains or simple the smoke is due to the frequent fog. The covers the mountains and which looks like smoke from a distance smokers are covered with drainage is rode by creeks, with many giant boulders as well steep cliffs cut with crevices. The landscape also features thickets of trees and vegetation the country you, u stray from an established trail. The thicket can be so thick tat in one case, it took over a year to find an airplane, so you imagine how difficult it would be, the locate, a single person given that type of terrain roaring rapids, especially

heavy rain could drown out sounds of screams are crying wild cats. Black bears the couple different points, the snakes are a rare but dangerous site in spring time, repairs come out of hibernation than they are at their most danes. As there isn't much food but eve, the summer they can, if provoked, attack, people. with millions of visitors annually is no surprise at some. People get lost in the wilderness of the smokers, but they are typically located within forty eight hours by dedicated rescue efforts. What is surprising This is how many people have come to visit only to never be seen again these you keep secrets. There have been number of mysterious disappearances and deaths that are as bizarre as they are unexplained.

This is one of those stories ride, a june thirteenth nineteen sixty nine six year old, Dennis Martin was on his first overnight camping trip. This part of a long standing. Martin family tradition of fathers day outings in the smoke with his nine year old brother dug his father, Who was a knoxville architect? His name is bill. Martin and his grandfather, Clyde Martin, the group spent

first night in a location, called russell field and they camped with doktor carter, martin of huntsville alabama and his two sons rust field is a grassy clearing in the forest with a panoramic view across the smoky is the next day june fourteenth the group east on a ninety minute, walk to a spot called spence field, some quick specifics of spends field. were to shelters located there now, the apple it and trail runs east and west through spends field, and there were two trails and one jeep road that leads to and from spence field to other destinations there at approximately four thirty p m. The four boys were playing a game of hide and seek a grassy area of spends field, and they thought it would be funny to hide and then sneak up and scare the adults in their group Douglas

and the other two boys went south and then west little dennis by himself headed forest spot to the northwest towards the appalache and trail and into the force yeah. He went into the forest, but his father saw where he went to hide. Literally a few minutes later the boys jump The woods you know in an attempt to scare us all the adult ha gotcha, however, Dennis does not jump out of the woods does not appear, and he was nowhere to be seen very Shortly after the adults, Ask me ten minutes so at approximately four forty p m. Just a few minutes asked, without anyone, spotting or hearing Dennis his fur their bill. Martin was calling out to Dennis. Looking for him, obviously bill then followed. The apple can trail west for about a mile before heading back and then west again, this time, all

way back to Russell field only to reach alone to Spence field and there's no sir at all of Dennis. There was nothing of his that was found during this quick search, while the boys there was making his journey. The grandfather clyde me his way back down, anthony creek decades, cove, roughly eight and a half miles and reach the ranger station shortly before eight thirty p m. This was to summon help, and at this point it began to reign very heavily with a very nasty store wall every parent will. Now. This is your worst nightmare. You could be in the grocery store and, u turn I was not there and it's like your heart sinks, all the way to the bottom of your gut well, and I want everybody to kind of picture. This ok cause. I think it's easy to work through this

and I tried to find an exact time that they had left when they woke up that morning and took off on that ninety minute walk east. I couldn't find an exact time. My guess is. It would be some time that morning they'd make this walk it's about an hour and a half walk there there now this new spot and they ve, set up camp spent the day setting up their camp right. This is the time where we're relaxing were children out. The kids are planned in others. No work to do we're just gonna, hang out and chill the kids are playing. This high seek I'm runnin in and out of the woods runnin around having a good old time now. They come up with this idea to cut a prank, the the parents, but what we third, and one thing that I can't like get over like when we cover cases and there's those moments where you wonder if, if other people feel guilty about something or if somebody

Second guess is one of their own personal actions for the rest of their lives. The mole For me is this: we have four boys, three of them decide to hide together and area and one boy he's only six dennis is only six hiding by himself now from what I could find and it seems like Dennis was wearing a? We know that Dennis was wearing a red shirt it seems like is the one or all of the other boys had suggested, that dennis go hide by himself because he could be easily spotted with bright red shirt in that area. So he of hiding by himself. These other three boys are altogether. They jump out and it's like you know at first probably call you know you got me and then away any way in weight. You know where's dennis why's. He not with you guys right,

then the boys are saying hey. He went over that way any hit by himself. Dad and grandpa are out walking around calling for dennis his name. You, you know how it is. You just explained a right there, but when you all out your child's name when you screaming ass, you know you expect him to come running out or at least hear him call back to you. One, like I said, there's multiple reports that say that Dennis his father saw him go into the woods I watched where he's gonna go, hide laden, that's what he's going to go, hide and then obviously, because they're playing a game. He you pull your eyes off of him ran. I guarantee you that he sees that image of his son going into the woods over and over over and over in his mind well, and you never think you never would expect to look away just four seconds,

maybe a minute or two and then they're gone by, and so let's walk through this, because the official search would begin saturday june fourteenth approximately eight thirty p m. This is after the grandfather notifies the park rangers that hey my grandsons missing and we ve been looking for me and his father as well as other people, and we can't find him and obviously they have some things work and against them because of the time this too. place, didn't have cell phones to make calls I'm enough. Cellphones will work there now, but some way to alert people, and stay in the area and have you not the dad the grandfather, the kid searching why they have help coming define help find this kid so from the this of this search at eight thirty. We have three rangers from cage cove. There are checking trails to and from caves cove all the way out, dispense field and

buddy that they come across along their way there to you know some have interrogate some say question whatever right, but any hikers are buddy that they pass on these trails. They're going to ask them hey. Have you seen a boy? What have you been doing? You know where were you at this time so on and so forth, and this produces random? This produces nothing the other thing we have to keep in mind, though, is there's a heavy rainstorm and when I say heavy rains, I mean two and a half inches of rain fell, and this occurred at dark all this, dreams became very high and turbulent at this time, and the three rangers the family member of the Martin family, they continue to search the immediate area for the rest of the night. The results were negative, not only did they not find Dennis, then find any clues to suggest where he could have been where he was hiding so the day that desk

missing. We have three rangers, look inform, plus the family and plus. I believe the other martin families helpin search format. Well, yes, and we also have other people that are camping in the area that are assisting the family and the rangers, because that's how this work, you know when the rangers come across. Other campers, they're, saying hey: this is we're doing we're looking for a little boy. This is what Wearing his name is dennis, and can you help us search from the gate? Go captain we're going to be dealing with several. What I would call major issues in the investigation and search for this little boy, the first being the obvious, the the rough terrain, as well as the two and a half inches of rainfall. That night now this is not help. You find anybody, and it also does not encourage others to join in on the search on these are very thick woods as well. So it's not like you can look into the woods and see couple even houses

back? You know, you're, not gonna, be I'll, see that far back, what we're going to see take place a massive search effort and the other thing that I say, is a major problem in this case is it's it's very important to note that the park itself had no detailed search and rescue plan any distance at this time, and what I mean by that is those three rain. Is that one out looking in assisting the family and other campers looking for that little boy that night? That was as much the plan is they had. Ok, somebody gets lost. We now a few guys, we find the person it's all over with don't worry about it, have no plan for a massive search effort. So start on day to the, though other is moderate. This is Sunday june fifteenth now we're going to start seeing resources and people entered the area to assist in the search

stay. We have nine jeeps and we have three trucks that are used to transport searchers. They search trails. The trail search can use and the initial searches of drainage is begin, all hikers, an camper, spotted in the area are question large helicopter was acquired and was used to haul equipment for a base camp at spends field. The number of urge personnel on day too was two hundred and forty people now Now we do have to note that there were poor conditions on that day and there is also adequate food and water for the personnel involved. Yeah. Nothing pisses me more when I go on to the woods searching for missing six year old to see that crafts and service does really screwed up the spread. Well, there's no sign of dennis at the end of day to ok and, more importantly, there's no. Actually. I should say more strange

there is no sign of him. There's no clues as to what could have happened to him at one and the other difficult. Then hairs mentioned the rain, and that affects things but having two hundred some searchers that affects other things too. It was at that point you can't brain in like a specialist or a tracker. This track the single movements of the six year old boy, you already screwed up the scene but Brendan and that many people and sometimes you'll see encases of specially a younger child that they brain in a tracker for they bring in search units right. That's interesting that you say that cause you're exactly right, you would have what did we say, two hundred forty people just kind of destroying the scene. Right stopping all over the area on day three They june sixteenth, the tray and drainage searches continued and an intensive grid search of spends field was conducted. rural military helicopters arrive to assist the new.

Media arrives on the scene and we have forty special forces. Troops arrived to help as well to blood. How are brought in and they are used during day. Three right again, probably would be more helpful and day, one or two, because we have now two hundred in some sense better get in the way of this. Work after all that rain as well, and then we have had crossed that establishes a food service operation for searchers at cage, cove now total number of people involved in day. Three was three hundred including personnel from the park, a local rescue squad, the air national guard and, as we said, forty special forces troops. That brings us today for captain june seventeen. Now this is an interesting, A because at this point we ve had no sign of the little boy. However, it to third

in the afternoon a set of one shoe on and one shoe off prints are found at this time, so the shoeprints was possibly of in oxford type shoe. What Dennis was last seen wearing now they followed for three hundred feet until they came to the edge of a branch that feed The eagle creek in north carolina eagle creek feeds Montana lake ten miles from spencer field then, after three inches of rain having fell these tracks were still intact in the mud. Investigators did not famine, the shoeprints finding in detail, because the area had already been searched. The footprints could have been overlooked by previous urges because it was mentioned repeatedly that there were no footprints all over from searchers. The person who found the print used a stick to measure

its size in comparison to an adult print. It is noted, that there were no small children involved in the search at the time. So what does this mean that all That means we need teach out the same measure. Well, what this does mean is they concluded that it's a child's footprint right, that it's a small footprint ones. who is on, and one shoes are correct and there are. Children involved in the search the way. thing now, like we just said, is they did not investigate this finding. because the area had already been searched and they found no prince. They believed that they found no prince when they originally search this area. A strange seems like a misstep there one hundred percent and the scary thing for me and this, as you say, the tracks are leading swords or their leaning towards water, yes, yemen, I want to know how deep

Water was an because, if Dennis try to cross this water Dennis could drown in the water Well, what we have here captain as we have several creeks that are flowing into this fontana lake refund tana lake, so this lake is he huge it, this is not a small body of water. This is a very large lake. So if, if we have this heavy rainfall that occurs We have these sweeping creeks in streams that have said encouraged so that are leading to this large body of water. If he were to have slipped fell months, I'd any reason to end up in one of those creeks or streams he very likely of ended up in the lake itself on we have footprints gone, and so we have evidence of possibly him gone into the water, but we don't have any evidence of him, leaving the water and the current. And so not only do you have to search the other side, but you need to figure out how fast this water is moving and if he'd

get into water and did get pushed around a little bit. Would he drift down the water a little bit and come out on the other side? If he, if he could come out on the other side, the tracks would be somewhere We'll keep in mind too, where finding these prints on day for the speed of the creek or stream. we have been significantly greater than night that he went missing with two and a half inches of rain falling that yeah. I would argue, though, to find these tracks. This is probably happening after it rains because the does, though, be deeper, so they want wash away and then also have be after some of the rain, where maybe there is a little bit of rain, but you're talking about a six year old, so these are not would be very deep footprints. Now. You say he only wait about fifty five pounds. What is believe so yeah he's not a big giant man leaving huge footprints in the modern dirt. Now I did find some note

from a meeting that was held on Wednesday june eighteen. This was the koran quote first strategy meeting and I found notes from several people involved in that meeting, but I just wanted to go through some of the notes from the chief ranger, so we all have a good understanding of the search itself, the poor homes that they ran into and his his notes say. First unable to transport, men, the roads or in bad shape, due to heavy rainfall that they needed more helicopters. The helicopter is actually nullified: the need for a huge base camp at spends field, which they did spend time, setting up that huge base camp right wasted He also noted that the helicopters were using jet fuel, so they were losing search time by flying to the base for to refuel these helicopters from time to time He also stated that they should be reaching out to north carolina because at some point there is going to

to be a cut off for the search, that's being conducted on the tennessee side, If you ve covered all your ground on their side, he beyond the north carolina side, and you need to search there. he also said the term was one thing that was was didn't make you feel very good. Ok, he said, we need a reference map to show areas that have been covered each day and daily. we can record areas covered in the effort made, meaning they they operating with one big map that they're all look and saying look on this day. We searched here right from this time to this I'm nothing found on this day. We search here so forth and so on. So While we have people at the top trying to organise this search, it's all kind of lucy goosey. It seems like you, have a lot of people coming into the area trying to help, but

we have a lot of cohesiveness to this actual search. Luck. This this happen in nineteen. Sixty nine, I think, because of the lack of technology, the lack of experience with putting together teams the lack of being able to communicate easily with one another that I believed ass would have been found within a day or two. If it happen this car and weaken. He also makes a note. The fbi agent, Jim Reich, was checking them families background for any possibilities if they were involved in this disappearance of. Son or grants honour whomever now the other thing to- and this is disconcerting is that we have on day five makes a no to tell select leaders to watch for circling, buzzards and no

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see age, you MBA, casino, dot com play for free play for fun play now, no purchase necessary void where prohibited by law. Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply, see website for details A right cheers meets cheers. Do you captain? Let's get back to the case of Dennis Martin? Well, I want to discuss a couple plans that works up and this was set up by the chief ranger- and these were discussed in some of these strategy meetings? So the chief range or set up two plants would say, plan a plan b plan a is. What do we do if we find the boy alive plan b, what if we find the boy dead so under plan

The boy would be taken by helicopter to the knoxville headquarters of the? U marine reserves and then by ambulance. The university of tennessee hospital under plan b. The blunt county corner would be notified and this is what they had to tell the searchers because This is a large area, so you may I have one individual, this kind of out on their own, find the Why either alive or deceased, so we better have a plan organise too we're lay this information to other people, especially if he's alive, so we can get him help as soon as possible yeah. But I also think the plan, if you find the boy dead, it almost feels like they had a hunch that maybe something went wrong. Somebody

family possibly was responsible. Well, we have the I that was checking the background of the Martin family, so the instructions to finders one is You find him first determine. Obviously, if dead or alive, then notified chief ranger by the fastest means available and give location in detail if dead. The radio code is ten. Two hundred, if alive radio code is ten one hundred a so if you find him climb a tree, set a flag, also build a fire. If you are one of the military personnel use a smoke bomb or some other form of signal for a helicopter. Then stand by while special forces repel in by helicopter and secure the boy if alive or dead. hard, the area until released by the chief ranger or the coroner so guard. The air

because we're going to want to look, area over we're gonna want to see blues we're going to see what we can find to tell us what happened to this boy if we find him dead yeah. Now all the reports that you read and there's been obviously so many years of pass census since Dennis went missing. Have you found anything that would lead you to any suspicion on the father No one hundred percent now and I'll tell you what it- and this is what you know. We talked about this very briefly last week an really. All I had to offer when we talked about it was as like. This is just this is a sad story, and I can't find anything to suggest that the family knew anything other than what they told the rangers new anything other than what they told the police and the fbi and the searchers actually in all honesty man. I kind of think that the Morton family the file

they're in the grandfather might have been searching more for this kid than anybody else, brain and You know- and I know that we we cover a lotta cases and we often say you gotta, look for the family, you gotta look toward the family their whereabouts, are fairly known. I mean there, it's it's pretty pinpointed out. to us, where they were what they were doing at the time we have a bridge If moment you know we have a short at a time where the father is off on his own searching the guy and father is off on his own searching. But the thing I want to point out here: we have a whole other family of people. That was there at the time of. Disappearance at the time that it was noticed that this boy went missing, yeah or that gets confusing Her last name is Martin but they're, not any relation, I'm glad clear that up, because I couldn't figure that out one hundred percent at first, I made the asylum in that they were

related and then I found Dennis martens fathers obituary, passed away in two thousand and fourteen, and I found his obituary to try to check to see. If Mr Martin was on their as being in relation to him and he was not listed. So thank you for clearing that, because that's been a headache for me. But again, the important thing here is if, if his, if Dennis Morton's father, had something to do with this, or his grandfather had something to do with this, we have a whole other family of people that were there at the time that the boy went missing and they're not say anything there, not saying hey, the father was suspicious hey the grandfather did even act and weird We don't have any of that and we have other children. We have other chill and that would have been eyewitnesses. They could have told police arrange something was going on as well. Now we have a search, a massive search effort that goes on for overseas,

seen days captain and we're not gonna, go through every detail of that sort, What I am talking about it for sixteen days, so quick breakdown of that search, just just trust, When I say this was a massive search effort. Ok Dennis is not found over the course of these sixteen days on, one. At the peak when we have the most searchers looking for the little boy, we have fourteen hundred people out there and we talked about all the helicopters evolve. We have special forces. I think it was recorded that sixty six events sixty six green bahrain, we're out they're. Looking for this boy. These are people are trained to go into areas like this and fight some one, whether they are dead or alive. They are specifically trained for this, so I say that they didn't find the boy. Here's the thing when you have a search for a person a lot of times. People

on the outside. Looking in they're going to set the standard of, was it a successful search? How hard did they try? Based off of did they find the poorest? right this situation, while they were prepared going into it they adapted as they could. Along the way they brought, a lot of people a lot of resources. He was in fact But it wasn't because of lack of effort There was a lot of effort to find this boy, one starlight he's just in open field somewhere. We have very tight path Then woods, I think, then you have the other element of if he was attacked by an animal. The animal could have took his body somewhere if he fell into a river or lake or something like that then yeah, I dunno. If there were searching those extensively, I'm guessing

but I think they would search some of those they were searching, though the drainage is in all honesty, I thought when I would look through the detailed versions of the searches and the efforts made, I saw a bit of a lack of effort on some of the larger bodies of water in the area. I think they search portions of those, but not the entirety now right, so that those are some of the elements that have gone yeah. We do have rangers that state on and promised the Martin family that they would continue to look for their little boy as long as it talk and base Finally, we have a meeting that takes place after sixteen days of searching where everybody in the meeting kind has to throw up their hands and say, but where do we

from here. What do we do now and part of those people were the Martin family as well the modern family saying? What do we do? We must we ve tried everything will thus dive into their there's. Only one a cow or possible account the eyewitness seen Dennis. Yes, so here's the thing, if, if you believe this theory then it's likely they Dennis was abducted. Young Connemara, I said preferences is gonna, get a little sister right and I'm not laughing at the thought of the boy being abducted, I'm laughing at the thought of things that have been discussed because of this possible, I witness account or you might be laughed and about that cause. You laugh at a mine too well so on the afternoon that Dennis disappeared, we have herald key he's forty five years old he's from tennessee. He was near the ruins. I hope I said that right, but we're going to go with that. Rowan's creek, which

a short distance away from the martin families campground now mister a key and his family had been walking a trail in the area. Looking for wildlife in particular, any signs of black bears near by when they heard an enormous sickening screen. I got a wrong growl. Okay, so in moments wrought look. I think that's important yes, he's son pointed out. A bare cordon quote a ban. Our near by now, howled was the sand dune poor, as I can find them. I couldn't either in this, is actually a very weird eye. Witness account the whole thing about it's weird: the bear. Was located up by the ridge. This is a bit of a ways from them now Mister king, upon observing the quote: unquote: bear his son had spotted determined that this was not a bear, rather what he would refer to as aid dark figured rough looking man attempting to

well. He says that he thinks it. This individual was trying to hide behind some of the bush there and man, which key didn't managed to view in clear detail, had purportedly been carrying something over his shoulder, key unaware of Dennis martens disappearance earlier that afternoon, suppose that the figure might have been a moon shiner who head you know, is trying to hide from them. And upon learning days later, there's the key there days later of the search for Dennis Martin, Harold key. No, five, the fbi about what he and his family had seen this afternoon Dennis went missing. The fbi gets involved right. They actually rule this out, as they were as being not connected to Dennis martens disappearance, because

this was about nine miles away from where the boy was last seen, and the f b I's thought here is that at the approximate time that MR key and his son see this unkept man is what the the theories actually called and referred to as a lot the unkept man theory at the time that they believed that they saw this. the visual it would have been too far of a distance away for the small child to have. Made his way there or to have been carried by this man, ok, so Shall we dive into this just just rip right through it Where shall we get in some other stuff? Captain there's a lot of weird things here where I think the weird thing is that we have a kid again. We don't know that aid saying I saw bear, I believe. After

His father says now is the shovel man his son still says now: there's a bear that and that's where we have the this is where it gets a little strange, because normally your father says now is disheveled man and the kid would go now. Okay, maybe it was in this case from what the reports I've read. The kid says: no, it was a bear, or at least something with far and then that's when ah the coast to coast starts and and when people start saying. While we have this, this guttural growled the summer scream, which, when you hear that initially they're looking for a six year old boy ah- six year old boy he's the one screaming. No, as this does man that screaming possibly now again, if you

some moon, shiner and he's hiding in the bushes from you're hiding behind trees from you. Why would he a guttural scream? So that's when people start put it on their velcro crow, she's gonna through the woods and looking for the big foot, the sas squash in there being that a rogue sas squash abducted Dennis miller bar mylar ass Martin. I'm so well, ass start with the first idea. This is that they hear this, federal grau. They see this dishevelled man or bare, and its let's neither one of those its combination. It's a big foot has something on his shoulder. We don't know if that's dennis or not so it could do

be a weird citing has nothing to do with the disappearance. People go a little step further and say: okay. Well, if this big foot as carrying something in that something here, carrying again wherever we know that Dennis was wearing a red shirt. I don't think there's anywhere that they report that the key family saw. You know this figure carrying something that had a red shirt or red anything according to MR key, he could not identify what this thing or person was kay. report by war and he was in fact carrying something at all right and what I would argue as if you care in this child that had a red shirt on that doesn't mean that the shirt collar and left him at some point bomb saying if they still had the red shirt on dead or alive. You would have been able to see that red shirt from the distance at this hour

you might not be able to make it out exactly what you saw, but you go well who's Karen something on his shoulder and I was right and that would lead me to believe that whatever they saw had something to do with the disappearance. But our look, here's a thing it was now big foot. It was not us ask watch very whenever you want to call him. It was not that wasn't, or our thought now I believe, and no I'll get it I'll get into it, now break it down real quick for you, but before I do. I would love if something like that existed the world. Would be a lot more interesting if something like that exist in the whole reason I got into true crime when I was a little kid was because I was it bigfoot know I was reading about big foot in see, monsters and stuff like that, and I got a little older as well. This is not likely

not a whole lot of substance here. Let's read about some other form of mystery, and that began my love of true crime. That was my favorite parts of unsolved mysteries when they would dive into bigfoot, sightings and locked in sponsors, because it seemed like it condemn. You know the the disappearance or of the past or murder cases that, when they dont drove into different things like that or alien abductions, canada lighten the moved a little bit. Well, here's why that's not possible! Ok, let's say, The easiest way for me to explain this is that there are a lot of varied reports of this possible. I witness accounts And what I mean by that is, there was one original true statement that was given it at the gecko incense. There There have been more fanciful versions of this same story where people

taking it they're recounting the story and they are giving it their own version there spinning it a little bit and some of them that I've seen captain there's dozens of matter and somewhat. or downright they sound like a science fiction story rather than the actual account right. So if you want to break down the actual account there, there's some that even Refer to this individual that that say that Harold key says he saw an ape man here never said he saw an ape man. He said he saw a dark conflicted. Unkempt man here, every man. Ok, he said that he also one that appear to being that didn't want to be added by anybody. He also said that this individual, when whenever they threw this thing over their shoulder, whatever they were carrying, they threw something over their shoulders, walked away and Harold keep. Leaves at the individual got into a white vehicle and drove off ok, so

some problems with their enlists ask watch owns a white vehicle. Then it's not ask watched the herald key saw so you're, saying bigfoot doesn't know how to drive a car they. If, yes, what you're saying if he does, then he of done quite the shaven hair cut before he showed up to get his license. His driver's license picture taken at look. I'm not saying that you're, not an expert on big foot but wires and as I've seen Harry in the henderson at least a hundred times, and I believe he drives a car. So I know Yet what you're saying, but but I'm regardless, if I'm not here too you, crypto zoology with anybody. Ok, I'm just I'm just stating the facts are that Harold key never said or further to this individual as an ape man number one or to whatever he said that he saw he believes that that thing

that person got into a white vehicle and drove away now again there there was an animal a long time ago. Cod Jake can a pit that sis- I believe that I said and which was a giant ape figure that they believe they believe, walked on two legs, so that there would be some sign that something like a big fat.

for existed at some point now we ve had a million sightings, but now with technology everybody has a camera array, has a video camera in their phone. I have seen a couple videos that I can't watch and explain to you what I'm seeing again, I'm with you love if these existed, where it gets Harry part in the pond, is this figure gets into a car? And if there is any truth that statement than when he saw was probably dishevelled man and then these reports of his sons, who knows a bear that might not be accurate and then, but why,

happens in this case. Yet this missing boy, six years old, then it goes from bigfoot sightings, two possible alien, alien abductions and this theory that these aliens and when they come down to earth that they have bases within side, rivers and lakes and these deep forest areas, and that maybe he was abducted by alien? Then you have other reports that maybe there's portals and I don't want. I I put this out there. I Haven'T- read the missing for one one. I saw the document documentary I've heard that the book goes more into the unexplained as far as port

there's time travelling portals alien portals again, look I luck. I, where the evidences you know. I just said I've seen a couple videos of of big foot and a couple videos of alien. And, u f, o sightings, that I can't explain that doesn't mean that they're real. So I hope some of the stuff exists somewhere, but I don't think it has any bearing on this case at all, even though, for whatever reason it gets brought up a lot. Will I think the this? I accounts were, What I think you're missing here when I think everyone- seems to be missing, for some reason is what this man says. Harold key says that Whoever I saw there in the woods whether he was carried. something or not got into a vehicle and drove off by them. Is that no, I

But nobody you what you went way out her left field here with with some alien talk, and I know that there has been a lot of it, but when I know that some my talk, what I'm saying is because of the big foot sightings that has led to other people. They have some fascination with true crime, but mainly their fast nay. It is an alien, sightings and bigfoot sightings in time travel. and portals and all that stuff and that stuff look, I love coast to coast. I love listening to some odd stuff write about what I'm saying is this case. People took this sighting of a disheveled. Man turned that into bigfoot turn that into aliens turn, that into time, traveling portals, and it's just it's just ridiculous. You know he is. I believe this case is pretty simple. He have a six year old why that went out to hide and maybe went too far and then ass, he got turned around started, gone all k. I knew

papa and the woods I need to go this way, and you said that you are one of the key things that you said. Is there was a time lapse of maybe ten minutes, maybe there a time lapse of ten minutes met again. In every case, you can go five mins forge refinements backwards. If you go backwards now fifteen minutes time window. That boy was missing, maybe maybe even as much as a twenty minute time window If that kid got turn around and thought, and this has happened, looked gum, whereas in boy scouts would go out and play your hiding go see can stuff. That I remember one time getting so freaking confused because we were playing up on a hill and then I then I took running went down the hill. The hide, then I end up going up hill and get in turn around for a sec. and started going the wrong way, and I think, saw saw some other bodies. I way over thought out

crap. I'm I'm way in the wrong area. So is it possible very possible that a six year old boy go out there to hide, gets turn around and starts I'm just gonna head in this direction. And dependent on how fast he's heading in that direction. Now you're half a mile away now you're. A mile away and you could be a mile away and and fifteen minutes then, even if he's not moving quickly is moving in the direction that you're not searching now your talk, within an hour he's three or four miles away and- and you know, and and two three hours now now he's he he's at that point on muscle he is a lifetime away, because that's why they never found them. Well, the key thing that I want to point out here regarding the story of Harold key and his son in that. Possible I witnessed citing is the vehicle

because we have a statement. This says the fbi rule this out as being connected as nine miles from spends field. It was too far. Well, it's not too far. If somebody took the boy from spends field put him in vehicle and drove the nine miles and ended up there. For some reason: ok, it's an author is not too far for that, so Why they chose to root rule. This out makes absolutely zero sense to me, because if this person was the the of some kind of crime of some kind of abduction, he had access to a vehicle and likely used it knowing where they went, spends film,

where they were at. You said, had two shelters, there was campgrounds, but we also have two families that are pretty close together. You would think that if this individual saw an opportunity to grab a six year old that there would be some kind of eye witness either of the man at spence filled or some kind of eye this of his vehicle there, so that I mean that's the only reason why it seems unlikely to me, but we're not talking now a situation where the martin molly in the other, Martin family are the only people in the area camping or stay now. I understand words about a very busy area, with lots of people coming in from all areas to stay there and spend the weak yet known,

and I understand and as well again now you have more people more pos. Why witnesses that didn't see a main carrying a child, this child? Again, we don't, I don't know for sure, but with this child scream yell whatever and so, we have more eye witnesses that didn't see this vehicle and you think, but we don't have a great description of the vehicle. not likely have have a situation where they're saying saw a white buick nineteen. Eighty six with the more soon vinyl top know that this guy saying, I think that the I got into a white vehicle and drove off? That's that's! His could have a discreet Did you get a vehicle that could have been white? and then we have a. We also have a situation of if this man, described the one: that's hiding in the woods bigfoot? Well, if he is as described do you think he would be easily remembered. He would be

memorable to the people staying in the area. Right quota quote unkempt man, the problem. I wonder the amount of distance between this individual. The key family as well. is the obstacles between them. I dont think that they had very good, They got a very good site of this individual. Now now,

somebody saying it's just the animal yeah barons of his enough with a bear I mean you could you could have a guy wearing a brown sweater at a great distance and he's got some weird hat on and maybe that's where you come up with this strange description of this individual was on it. I think the thing that is it possible that there's this pedophile out there or or murderer child murderer, that's out there just trying to find a victim, that's very possible. I mean we've seen times with Bundy and other people that go to campgrounds and and to kind of stalk prey it's possible the, but you always have to look at the evidence, and I think one of the pieces of evidence is when they found

the shoe print where there's one shoe print and then the missing shoe print you're. Finding that out, I don't know how far away it was from the site that he went missing, but I think it was a distance and so again it's like the. the eyewitness of the disheveled man, would have to line up with the boy gone missing at this time and then, when the the shoe prints were found- and I think the shoeprints would have been found after that, if I'm correct on that, then I think this disheveled man, men, probably has nothing to do- with the case. I think if the shoe prints were there and if they are in fact part of the disappearance, if they were left by Dennis Martin. I think they probably It would have been found on day two of the search idols

any way that the family and some people helping in assisting and three rangers would have found those prince during the course of two and a half inches of rainfall. so day to now, we do know we have to believe I dont have record of where those prints were found, but the inference we can make. Is it there, should have been somewhat close to where the Morton family was staying, because the key word words that are used is stating that This area had already been searched in these prints, weren't there or not believed to have been there the first time we search this. We know that when they first searching, they sorry searching in the most likely areas first and work their way out. That means starting point. close by where the Martin family was staying. While and that's the other scary thing to those I mean you, you said it, I believe in the trailer that took them an hour once

none of our took him a day, one time to find a missing blaine, who was a year a whole a whole year, wow I need to pay attention to you earlier off by three hundred and sixty four day. That's not what I want to keep him. Oh, I think We should keep in mind. You know I've gone over that statement, time and time again and I'm like well, of course, aid and find an Dennis Martin. How would you if it took you to find a plain, but the plane got there, much different way than dennis would get to where he may be resting were But what I mean by that is: is it possible that there searching for this child but because he is so small, because the woods are so dense that you can't see him? Maybe fifteen yards away, so he walks by you during the search, and so is it possible that again, these footprints are not left till day to or possibly even day

three and then you go he's here he's been here the whole time we're just not seeing him when we're searching. I mean I I again, I I don't know the terrain too. Well, I mean I've seen a few pictures, but it seems like once you got into those woods that it'd be hard to spot anything. So here's my one of my thoughts. then you know it's tough for me to go a whole case without throwing somebody under the bus or least bringing up some good questions that I think have not been looked at regarding individuals, my first question would be for Mr Harold key, the one that has this quota quote possible eye witness statement right. He does not report this four days, because he didn't, he was unaware that there was a missing person for days. I will her. Where was Harold key during the course of those days before he reported this

and what I'm getting at is well well. I dont think that should be laughed at. We ve caught, we ve, So many cases where somebody comes forward with a possible I witness cow. Why do they do that? Sometimes they are trying to create and establish an alibi for themselves actually up to no good but is in his wife with them, That's no! That's what I mean. I would like to know where this individual was during the course of those days and how does it and into that he doesn't know that. There's somebody missing for days when we have state it's all along the way the searchers when they came across anybody else, they'd be like hey we're. Looking for six year old boy, his name's dennis he was wearing this. Have you seen anybody, and so his eye croissants dishevelled man, but I mean it out in his egg is win. This citing occurred, did he's shortly. Leave after that, and they didn't become aware of Dennis martin missing

until they saw it on the news when they return to their home. It at home and in the comfort of their family room, and they see it on the news so that just in question. I have item not trying to to make it look like anybody's guilty of anything right. What, but what I'm getting at is. We have a very possibly important eyewitness accounts, that we have no information of we're fed this account. So many times, and if you look into this case, like I said, you'll find two dozen different versions of this account. and only one of them is correct, We have no follow up information on MR key his family, what they were doing, why they were in the area and in nor were they into whom did they finally report this possible, citing of this man and or this boy and to the other weird story involving this disappearance of dense martins, it's weird as big footsore alien, but it's still

odd. So several years after Dennis went missing an illegal ginseng hunter claims that he had found a skull. and other remains of a small boy or I'm guessing. I don't know how you would deter and it was a boy or a girl but state that in the same vicinity, however, this person did not report this to anybody officially until nineteen, eighty five, because the man had feared that he might be arrested for his illegal activity in the area which led him to the discovery this area was around three miles away from where Dennis was last seen, and a later search of this area yielded no results. so many years after the incident for whatever reason my get. This tells me that this story isn't true that this guy didn't see a scholar anything. I believe that

after he told them, even though so much time passed, I believe they would have found something right kind. It remains. This is a lie. This is gonna, be why I mean anybody that that would come forward to want to do the right thing we. What are you gonna do captain you and I've talked about this gap of your damn dancing and you go report your findings immediately or he said I was nineteen. Eighty four. When he came out, and when he finally reported this incident, it was nineteen. Eighty five against us, ten years after the boy goes missing, I mean so, if you are told the truth, your horrible pizza shake his awaited for sixteen years and if you're not telling the truth, your horrible piece of shit you're lying about well, I know always away keep in mind that help his shit, that when the search was fine, d, you know when it was over. They had searched fifty six, square miles of land, fifty six square mile. Of land? This guy says the

he found this array three miles away from where Dennis was last seen and hears The other thing that strange about his statement. I found a score and other remains of a small boy in this area. Again years later, after years of de composition. How would sk. I know that it was a small boy right. You know what india peters told him. It was a small boy, not a small girl right and then the indicators are He read this story somewhere and he wanted to be a part of it right that to me he should probably look into individuals like that, though you know I mean because it's like why. Why does this guy want to be a part of the story again, and but it also shows that there's also people up there, hunting when they shouldn't be and so again does Dennis, go into the woods and gets. Does he get lost, get attack by animal or does he does he fine some evil piece of shit out there

I have trouble with the theory of an animal attack as well and the reason being is, I think there would have been evidence of such. I think that we would have found something of dennis or some something belonging to dennis after this animal attack. This debt never have there. There's no sign of this boy anyway. Why? Well, I think it's in the documentary missing for one one, or at least in a documentary I wants recently where this in the scenario they they went up somewhere, the boy there. The kids were playing, they turned around the boy was they were hiking on the trail, they turn around. The boy is gone, and so then they hightail it back to where the father was staying, say: hey can't find your boy he goes up. There may was the grandfather they go up and start looking. They can't find anything and one of the rangers and would tell you this

If an animal would attack, anything is gonna, take those remains with it. and so yeah you would argue. Would you fine blood? Well you're talking about? He goes missing I don't have anybody with any knowledge searching until eight thirty, so now it's dark, then once it starts raining, would whatever blood would been found at the scene where he was attacked? Would that be washed away? And so my gut feeling is to me? It's the simple. I think he turned around. He got lost. He either was attacked. You got lost, moved around for a while and then got attacked by an animal or he will.

was lost roaming around and possibly tried to. You know off cross this water and you know, drown in the water. I think those to me are the two. Most likely scenarios yeah. I agree with you. I think we have a situation where I was The most probable is that somehow the we got disoriented, he got lost for whatever reason ended up in water. Now that could be a million different reasons as to why what maybe he put himself in water, but we, and we also have some evidence of this- we do have footprints that lead towards water and we hit the boys got no food or water, no food or drink, so did he go towards water ted to drink, something at some The only thing that I have issue with in this theory is that ok, so the average adult

would walk a mile in a bow a little less than twenty minutes six. You're old boy. Ok, let's go expand that out to about thirty minutes, and you also have the factor in its rough terrain he's not king on paved rode on a flat paved road. This is the wilderness where this child is walking his father in and father began. Looking for him if we are to believe the stories within minutes within a very short period of time, calling out his name Why did he not return there shouts? why didn't he shall back at them? Why and if he did, why didn't they hear him? He would have been close enough in that time period that they should have heard him. So it's it's a very troubling thing, because what seems the most proper bull of him getting lost in then ending up in the water and if he were anywhere if he were any anywhere on that property to this day

it would be in the water, because that's where they had the toughest time searching, that's where they weren't able to conduct proper searches shortly after he went missing, but in the troubling thing is widened. He call back to his dad and his grandfather and it did. Why didn't they hear him? So then My other thought, mine or to theory, none one would be got lost in something happened to its surprising to me that all this time later, they ve never found anything. You know too, to tell us what happened, but My number two theory would be that he was abducted and what I mean by that is some people have said really all those people in that big of an area- and he is abducted. That just seems like to perfect of a scenario for the abductor you the thing that these people are having trouble figuring out is I'm not

suggesting a theory where Dennis Martin was targeted to be abducted, I'm pointing out a thought in theory of the abductor, went to this location in you know what there's gonna be a bunch of people here they're my the unsupervised, children, going to watch some of the children in the area and if I see someone on unattended two. If I see an opportunity, I'm taken it and We have a situation here where, if we have an abductor whose attracted to young boys, what very well may have been watching those four young boys playing together. That day, I thought you know what I might like to take one of those voice and a situation may have presented itself were through Boys went off in one direction and poor little Dennis went off in another direction. and either he was enticed by this individual to walk further into the woods or he was grabbed up by this individual.

And you pointed out a very good thing. You pointed out a very smart observation gap. And that's one that I'm having trouble getting over, and this is why the abduction theory, as my second most probable to me, is that if he was abducted, there would have had to have been some time of this individual running with the boy in his arms, and nobody ever saw that no, ever came forward, saying you know if somebody would have come forward leave. You me this would be an abduction. This would not be a missing persons case. This would be an abduction case and they would have investigated in such right from the get go, and so that's that

as smart, intelligent observation that you made, and so those are my thoughts and I and I and I apologize that I can't have a better answer for you, but those seem to be the most likely in here. Here's the thing as far as the abduction goes captain this, why can't get over the thought that it might have been an abduction? was there is no trace of this boy anywhere. It's almost as whatever happened to him, not only remove dennis, but it removed everything that Dennis had on this. Person at that time, it removed all trace of dennis. time from the area, I believe we have a seat, cheer. There was big enough that if he was in the area, he would have been found or something of him could have been,

found was scary. Here is no! You just look up missing persons from parks numbers as far as over sixteen hundred people gone missing. This is a lot of people by think it. It shows one that that arm mother nature in the wilderness is not anything you to take lightly bright. You could just get lost, you could be attacked by an animal. You could again, you could have an accident fallen off a cliff something with water, so I you know be careful out. There and- and I think the reason why some of these crazy, you know, quote unquote crazy ideas as far as alien abduction and time, travel, portals and dimension portals and.

But sightings and and possible, other animals is because there is so many individuals have gone missing that we don't have answers to, and I think it's people try to fill in the gaps. Young and I do want to address two other things that have been pointed out in this case, as being quota quote: weird: ok, the first being author de white, a card he's the author of lost a rangers journal of search and rescue. He had astray tale to tell about the martin case in which macarthur, in which macarthur claim that, during the search for Dennis Martin, the special forces units they had called in had barely communicated at all with authorities rangers or civilian searchers. Instead, working on their own as if, in his words they had their own agenda? He also states that they had been heavily armed as if they were expecting something big to happen, and he asked. What could this mean I want to address?

at real, quick, your captain. I think this. This is another way of making this story more fanciful than it is than what it actually is he's talking about the green berets when they came in to look for the boy they were going to work on their own. Ok, these are. This is a year a special forces unit that is trained, highly trained to conduct, searches and fine people and remove them from an area. Ok, they're, not going to fraternize with the law. Oh rangers with some locals. They helped search that are we going to, muddy the waters for them cloud their operation, they're not gonna, spend time, Ok with those individuals. They can do nothing but slow I'm down. While this is another, and why the bigfoot community has said that big foot was involved, and this is evidence of that because

they came and that they knew that they're. Looking for a boy and its possibly that he was abducted by a big foot. That's that's what I've read time and time again in the other of what could this mean that they were heavily armed there, the green by? How would you expect them to be armed they're, going to be on the way that they're always going to be armed on any search and rescue mission? Tell you something when they sit down at dinner, table the heavily on the other, we we're dead the people bring up. Is that the lead fbi investigator on the case agent, Jim Reich, later committed suicide, ok, I'm sorry, but people and law enforcement have a higher rate of suicide than most other professions. It's just a fact. Ok, we're talking bout. They want to paint this picture of what Jim right must have known so thing that the general public didn't he couldn't take it anymore, so he killed himself. Did he know

things at the general public didn't know, of course, he's in the b I write, but most likely was about other cases. This guy was probably he worked, distress job for many years and who knows what other stressors it added to his life? Is personal life and his family life? I'm sorry, but to point out that the agent that work this case later committed suicide, it has no bearing on this case itself. It means nothing. It carries. No weight, so again captain. We have a lot of strange theories out there that are interesting to read and think about, but they just don't carry any weight yeah. I don't want any hate from the big foot Kennedy. I want any hate from earlier tsar or go stir any community or time travel, our portals different dimensions, I'm until it all. I watch some of the crazy, things you ever seen and then sometimes I laugh afterwards and sometimes ago that ship might be real

You know it all depends on the day. I think, but I do find that stuff fascinating I enjoy it. I mean I've been a big fan of coast to coast for years, and I I find those they're just puzzles in there. They're like mind puzzles- and I think it's fun to think about- and I do want to point out a couple things here: to capita we have the Martin family. Ok, everything that I read states that the grandfather Dennis my grandfather was looking the child till very late in his life. We also have his father, william William Morton, you know one test that he passed the Martin family passed for me. Was they didn't move away? He lived in the same home that he lived in with dennis at the time of dennis his disappearance. till very late in life and he was married to his mother for fifty five years until he passed way in two thousand and fourteen and again

thing. I read stated that he was looking for his son until he passed away, all right, I hope ever bay had agree labour day week in others, fawn hope you get some nice cold drinks and enjoy the short work week that that's it that's the best part yet the great holiday, followed by the short work week lit I reading for everybody out there, We are recommending missing when the sun sets the jared added, darrow story and son is spelled s o and discover the case that rocked the of colorado for five years and changed the way. Many view their world forever on october session ninety ninety nine three year old Jared atta darrow, vanished on a group pike in the comanche peak wilderness.

as ours turned into days and days in a month's jeers far, Alan goes through hell and high water to combat nightmarish circumstances hindering the search for him. son and how about a little recommended listening captain We have our show that you can check out. People always ask us. Where can I and the old shows of true crime garage, guess what it's very easy. You get the stitched up and you can listen to every so I was over and garage you get years of great garage goodness and then, if you want to take a step further, which I recommend that you do because we're getting so much good feedback Our other show, which is called off the record, used five dollars a month and you get every show that is on stage a premium. Yes, so you can chew that out off the record by going to stitch premium, dot, com, slash true crime, garage and use promo code garage, and if you just want

check it out before you buy. You can listen for free for a month. Yeah it's becoming one of my favorite parts of the week is just when we're done. Recording the show for us to this keep the mike's gone. Unkindest talk about whatever's happening, one in our lives. Anything that's going on with the show. Any updates on cases has been a lot of fun so check that out and they for sharing the show on social media and sharing your pictures and everything with us on social media loved to repose, though so much loved everybody out there and, like the captain, says thanks for listing thanks for telling your friend we So you all back here in the garage next week and until then be good, be kind and don't let

the. You can go governing continental is the smart choice in type is in the hands of streams, anything further guy who finds that one potholes they neither of the chilean engineer tat, really really really continental available. With this now entire.