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the welcome to true grime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing. Thanks for listing, I'm your hosts nick and with me, as always, the guy. That would like to remind everyone entering the garage there's a five dollar charge for whining. He is the cap and theirs thousand dollar charge. If you're, the colonel to be seen in it's good to see you thanks for listing thanks for Tom, a friend

fresh out the fridge, we have you're a good man, charlie brown ale, by santa cruz mountain brewing garage grade three: and three quarter bottle caps out of five you're, a good man Early brown ale is brood with roasted malts features, aromas of toasted caramel, its brood with This ale used for a nice crisp and classic finish in today's beer was right it is by these classically awesome friends right here. First, step have merited in spring city tennessee. I created a beard because use a piece shit. Charlie brown makes up we I have Kelly in ST petersburg florida, the nice gb gibb, zip to cheryl and Henderson nevada. Next, we have connie and parts unknown, we have miss myra and nowhere as ville and last but not least, we have michelle who I'm guessing is in springfield, because she recommends mothers

brewery, which I am almost certain captain. We have recommended them before on this show, I believe so. My kind, sir thanks everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show and make sure you check out the store page, because we have the zodiac hoodies. You have to order them by the seven they ship out on the fourteenth. So, yes, you should receive them by christmas. That's enough of the business everybody gather round grabbed share grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

Many have choice. The story of edmund camper, but you ve never heard it quite like this before Most of the information in this case is well known but I will lay some of it out here. Admin milk hamper the third. was raised by a mother that, even when he was just a small boy, she very likely hated Edmund. Like the plague death ritual games with his sister he tried live.

with his father, but he didn't want him either. Grew to be a large man. An extremely intelligent ed was about six foot, nine inches tall and his iq near genius level. Some call him the ogre of actors as an adult convicted of the mutilation slayings of eight women was this hawking monster born evil, Where was he made evil? This week we will study admin and those who have studied him before we will try to learn about the angry little boy that lives inside this giant homicidal man. This is a look at the murderous madness of Edmund camper, the co ed killer or are not enough

I'm not an authority, I'm someone who has been a murderer for almost twenty years. Can you say how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing? It would be a guess, but it's not it's far more than thirty five. It isn't that impossible in this society it happens. Are there more people they didn't give up she didn't give up. I did I came in out of the coal and what I'm saying is there are some people who prefer it in the cold. You were able to appear like an ordinary person non threatening to. I lived as an ordinary, most of my life, even though I was living a parallel, an increasingly sick wife, other life, one victim. Let me back in the car I locked myself out. She opened the door for me. My gun was under the seat, what the hell am I doing telling you that my look

You might have a masochistic looking to be tormented further. trying to show you just how awful god how commanding israel He's got the true crime garage army loved the hit series, mine hunter, the show based on the real life events of the genesis of the fbi's behavioral science unit, housed it fbi, headquarters and quantico, virginia on mind hunter the main characters, holden ford and bill tense, Essentially the dramatize onscreen versions of famous real life fbi agents, John douglas and bob wrestler.

like on the show in like in real life. These agents worked in a special unit of the f b. I that had many objectives, but two of the most important were helping local law enforced, The agency solve crimes and studying the new phenomenon at the time, which was the real isolation of the significant increase of stranger answer and your crimes- cereal offender, in serial killers, which are both terms often used, but back then cereal fender. serial killer were new terms both coined by the special agents working with this unit at the fbi. This week we will be discussing serial killer. Edmund can or who spent a lot of time talking with the fbi over the years, the general topics of discussion, who was he what crime did he commit and why the first series of mine hunter features, some of these- Dramatizations of these talks with temper and the fbi now

both watch season, one and loved it, and one thing we have discussed on our show off the record- and I say this almost shamefully captain: we both loved actor cameron, britain as serial killer, Edmund camper heck. Sometimes during breaks we when working, we would stop the show and we'd. Both were doing camper impressions. I particularly like the scene when they were talking about the horrible murders. Camper has committed and he's offering the agents, another slice of pizza. Now this is disturbing on several love. because, while I'm watching the show and thinking to myself, I could listen to Ed camper talk for days then the realisation comes back to you. Kicked you in the teeth, with the reminder that Ed camper was a despicable, human being. He's a monster, and yet I find him somewhat charming and somewhat be saying: well, that's the tv version of ed colonel and it is but

if you- and we have watched interviews with the real ed camper is very similar, so we felt bad about that, but we are not alone in our liking, of the tv version of camper, because actor cameron, Britain did win and emmy for his work on the show that want some of the lines that they use in the show our direct lines from the interview. that were recorded? So let's go to the real life version of the genesis of the fbi's behavioral science unit in case study of Edmund camper now interviewing serial killer, so it was. It was john Douglas that suggested to Bob ressler that since there were so many serial killers locked up that they should start talking to them to see if they would talk about what they had done.

And why they believed that they did it one. Just like you here earlier with the pizza offering the pizza the f b, I would offer them a special meal like hey. If you interview with us, we can get you a pizza or we can get you some specialty sub or something that you can't get in prison. Well, Bob Ressler agreed with Douglas and they decided that they were going to start interviewing these guys, and actually they decided that, while they were in california helping law enforcement to start there, because, as we all know from the various cases we have covered here in the garage, California has certainly had its more than fair of weird crimes and serial killers still so this was nineteen, Seventy eight and they're going to go interview, their first serial killer and they decided to start with ed camper ed was housed at the california medical facility in vat avail california, they decided their best method of going about this To show up, unannounced and with

permission from the fbi and without giving the prison prior notice as well. So this is for two reasons one. The fbi believes these guys believed the f b. I would have told them. No, you can't around interviewing cereals, but in two I also believe that the meeting was scheduled with the inmate, that the would likely be considered a snitch by the other prisoners, thus possibly pudding. Theirs checked in danger and making them far less likely to cooperate and agree to these interviews. So if they showed up on announced, the inmates would just assume that they simply were investigating a case or investigating something or other. Now we have to consider how terrifying this could be even for federal agents. First, they can't go in there with their gunnar weapon. You know they don't want those things. Working their way into the you know: population right and sex

They have to sign waivers agreeing that if they were to be taken hostage at any time that they understood that they would not be bargained for, while on both these men they're going to go in as a pair, so both of these men are trained but ad is also sick nine, that's a big boy, yeah, basically locked alone in a room with six foot, nine inch tall, almost hundred pound. Man and then another thing that Douglas was concerned about was the iq of Edmund camper. Now gotta, be honest with you here. Captain I've seen this iq kind of all over the shop I've seen it listed as high as one forty x and as low as one thirty one or thirty. One well I do know that he was tested at least twice so that might be the cause of some of the variations. I also

I stand that there's multiple versions of the what we would just call the I q test, which could give a different score so to speak. Sound like credit scores, there's different topics, also different crows scores, yes, and so we have douglas, who he thought to himself and I'm sure you discuss with ressler in advance he was a little worried that you know these guys are used to being the smartest guys in the and now they're in there, with this giant and they're worried that he's smart, than them. You know so physic. he could overpower them ITALY, he might be able to manipulate them or to bullshit them. To put it quite frank right but, like I said, both these guys are trained individuals. These guys have made it to the fbi, so they ve dealt with some of the scum other earth. Nausea

so they're going to I mean, but just imagine, if you're not trained at all right. Some of these police officers have taken criminals that have done heinous crimes and they had to lock em up handcuff 'em put them in the back with their car and transport them to another prison or to another jail by themselves, and so yes, this is a this sounds crazy to us to go. Hey you're going to go in to this little steel cage with this a killer, but I, but I also think these guys are, are alot. tougher them, ah that maybe he gave him credit for well, you and I discussed wick line, which was a somebody that was put to death here and in ohio for a couple of months, yeah and where klein was a large man who say he's quite strong is Any was intelligent too. He was not as biggest

Men camper his iq was probably not as high as edmund campers in any case, was a guy that you know we spoke several officers. That said, I knew it had to transport him. I knew guys it had to be in a room with wick line and data. They went to their superiors in advance and said I refuse to be alone with him right. if I'm going to be in a room or in a car with this guy, there better be multiples, you know there better be a bunch of, guys in only one week lie so the thing with the you know and, like you said, guys or train these guys are skilled, individual doug It was a job. I believe he was a boxer in in college. You know so so a bit of a tough guy. I guess, but I mean this luck if you're a trained boxer and then you have to he had to deal with the scum of the earth. Those guys aren't off they're, not afraid of this guy, but keep in mind just the reach alone. On ad camper I mean six foot, nine

yeah, but you know the difference between a normal human in an actual train boxer, ie, eight survey says: hey I trained as a boxer. You don't want to fight that guy right. That guy knows how to throw punch The thing, though, to that that's tough for us, regular civilians to get over is just the eye. dia forget about his size or his intelligence, but just the eye the idea of being in a room with somebody that you know is not only kay boy of martyr, but, according to the case it tells you that he enjoyed it yeah, I'm not trying to put a damper on this, but I also think some of the psychological warfare on this is now add. Six. Ninety kills women, you I mean like it's, not, He just killed anybody and everybody right. You re hearing his heart, like like so crow entering the colosseum yea your eyes. Are you not

entertained. Are you not entertained so the John douglas and bob wrestler, they were interested really and truly and anything that camper wanted to tell them, but per the units study they were, merely interested in getting answers to the following questions: one, what leads a person to become a serial sexual offend? and what are the early warning signals to what serves to encourage or to inhibit the commission of his offense three. What types of spots are coping strategies by an intended. Victim are successful with what type of sexual offender and avoiding victimization for what are the implications for his dangerousness prognosis. Disposition and mode of treatment are so question for you because it

you watch mine hunter. They don't really have questionnaires or really much of up objective at the beginning or that's, or at least what the show portrays. So do you think that this was the first, the first thing that they're trying to get an certain than that develop more later I think that probably the between the two of them John douglas and bob wrestler, that this was their primary goal right from the onset of everything, but I just don't think that they put penda paper to come up with an effective strategy so according to, The show the tv show in what I think we can kind of infer from the show is like you said they come up with basically a quest there hey here's kind of a script not share with the subject, but between the two

you. You know that you're working to get answers to these set of questions right by that script happen once they gotta doktor involved correct, and I think what that the whole Jim, of that would be an where the smarts of that comes into play, as these guys were, Strangely busy and what I mean by that is when this first started, they weren't you paid to, or their superiors didn't even understand that they were out interviewing the serial killers. They were actually supposed to be there on other business, their training, local law enforcement agencies on how to detect introduce certain crimes there so working with local law enforcement agencies to actually solve crimes. So while they, can it be in the neighborhood so to speak their like ok? Well, what in his near by and who is locked up for life or you know any. Let's go talk to them. Yam both of these guys were also original members of

kids on the block, so they had a lotta stuff going on so most of the time in getting until they got their grant money. They were doing this on their own time in the evenings and on the weekends. So I think this script and I think, together. A list of actual questions is really just a to maximize their time in their efficiency. While they are, they are talking to you. Ve watched plenty our views with ad camper? You, you know it's obvious. He can just talk and talk and talk and talk for hours and hours and hours when he graduated. He was most likely to have a podcast in his eye school class. So The interesting thing here, though, is you asked? Do you believe that these were were questions that they saw answers to right from the beginning? That does because, if I'm wrong

It made it seem like we don't know what to expect. So let us go on there and see if we could get him talking. I think that's the truth. I think that's the truth. On some level, we do know that this was their up, active, because this was later released. Many later this was after they got their grant money. It's kind of to champion cause so to speak. They release these its of questions hey. This is what we're looking for. We interview these guys in it b. I news bulletin to the rest of their department in their agencies. Confusing real life with the tv show, but also in this tv show wasn't in the first meeting solo meeting where he accident and with his partner. Well, that's a dramatization in real life. There were three, individuals that sat down with ed camper the first time- and I don't no the name of the other office

involved, and I came in to be honest with you. I think it was a local f b. I agent, you know douglas in wrestler, not local, to the area right. I think that that F b, I agent, probably worked because he had not been in a prison yet, and they didn't know that hey, you could just walk up within flasher, f b, I badge and most of the time that works to get into the prison right while cause a lot of these prison guards or local officers had a lot of respect for the f b. I will think about two of the questions that they listed there. In those for you, know, they're all kind of lengthy questions. If you really dissect them, each one is actually multiple questions worked into one question right, but the simplicity of it is two things one what is the early warning signals of who this person could turn into be another answer too much flick epa, and then to this is interesting. What can a victim do if you find yourself a car

with an individual like this, a serial killer, cereal rapists. What can I do to try to get myself out of this situation and behaviour or why you know: are there things that I can say things that I can do or their actions ike Take or reactions to this mad man that I can use to to save my own life and get me out of this situation right cause. What we ve seen with Bundy you're gonna, see with camper usc with other serial killers that they will have moments where everything you know, this plan that normally takes place normally the serial killers. It's like after the first attack, for the second attacked and they start one. While this is harm gonna. Do it, this is my ruse to get them in my car. Then we go here. Then we drive this and then we do that

and then I pull my gun on them and they can. I have a routine that their building, but there's also times where it's like my routine, was the picture pick up a hitchhiker. My routine was to pick up a sex worker and they will do that and they just drop the individual off and there is no murder right. So what made those difference than the actual attacks, the simplicity of both of those questions and actually, in my opinion, almost all four of those questions is really early: detection of a serial killer and preventing more loss of life, You know we have: how can a victim get out of this situation? One s while enforcement you wanna victim to get out the situation not only to save their own life, but to help you solve the crime help you make an arrest somebody they could later identify somebody that did something terrible to them, or at least attempted to do so.

And then we have the early warning signals. You know the early signs of of the creation of the serial killers. Have I could this energy for a second? This has been on my mind all morning, but we're talking about serial killer, so its relevant k don't give me those eyes big, shot out to build or the comedian as watchin is show. Last night, his cart show on netflix efforts for family and there's a scene where he's argued with this kid and he starts fighting the kid and then the dad comes up things like would you were you doing, you're trying to fight my nine year old son you? What? What are you some kind of

asshole all right, and then you notice that the guy's name, honest a name badge. That's fighting, though birds character. His last aim is dahmer unease. Then he starts call on his son, Geoffrey and the kid has blonde hair with the little glasses, and I just thought I can't one. I can't get away from true I am, but how clever it is that he just kind of threw it in there like. I I wonder how many people watched then didn't even know that it was jeffrey, Dahmer and true crimes, kind of seeped, it's way into all different kinds of media, while on the fact too, that, like the cartoon, is based around that time period where Jeffrey Dahmer would have been, John. Ok, ok were a key thing to keep in mind when talking to these serial killer types, and we ve touched on this a bit already

is it they are often skilled manipulators and some of them quite intelligent, which, as is the case with camper, so it was. It was, and is extremely important that the f b, I agents, know the case inside and out in order to hopefully get the answers to the questions and to advance the f b I's ability to prevent, detect and capture serial offenders and cereal. Phyllis now the agents are going to want to learn everything they can about campers childhood environment relationships, crimes, habits and his arrest, but they are going want to know this in his own words right from his mouth and when we come back, we will talk about the things that they learn. If you had

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After you find your favorite podcast, you are involved in a campus because your mother worked there. I was also involved in killing coeds, because my mother was associated with college work, college coeds women and had had a very strong and violently outspoken position on men for much of my upbringing. My mother was a sick angry.

It's hungry and very sad woman? I hated her, but I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase. I watched her social life drop off. I watched her get bizarre. She had terrible pain from her life earlier life. Her upbringing, a failed marriage with my father, I'm a constant reminder of that failure. I hate to distill it down into such a in one word: realities wait, there's a lot of leads into that happening, but that is what happened. They represented not what my mother was, but what she liked, what she coveted. What was important to her and I was destroying it. Why did you actually kill the girls? My frustration, my inability to communicate socially

actually I wasn't evident, but emotionally I was impotent. I was scared to death of failing and male female relationships I know we absolutely nothing about the whole area, even if just sitting down and talking with the only I need to be able to really communicate, and, ironically enough, that's why I began taking people up and I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time so daring kind of a thing First there wasn't a gun. I'm driving along we'd go a vulnerable place. There are people watching where I could act out, and I say no, I can't and then the gun is in the car kitten and is craving this awful raging eating feeling inside, I could feel it consuming my insides. This fantastic passion was over.

Calming me, it was like drugs that was like alcohol. A little isn't enough at first it is, and as you adjust to that psychologically and physically, you take more and more and more it's the same process, so it I only came down to the thing of Dwight dear bring this gun out already realizing. If that gun comes out, something has to happen. Edmund emil Kemper. The third was born december, eighteenth nineteen, forty eight in burbank california. Now, during his childhood, camper was physically and emotionally abused by his alcoholic mother Cornell, who was divorced from his father before the divorce. Add, was close with his father after the divorce as mother hated him and its believed. This is because Ed looked almost exactly like his father

one of its favourite games to play as a boy was game that he invented in which he called it gas chamber or the gas chamber. This would be a game that he played with his sister, where they would take turns base. They pretending to be gassed or gassing one another, and then he would You ride around pretending to be in pain on the floor as he's pretending to die because of this game that they were I now why cornell in ed's two sisters slip upstairs she made her son at the age of just eight years old sleep in the dark and cold basement alone. At night, This is likely that she did this for many reasons, but the reason most often cited for this treatment or abuse was, she was afraid, edward molest or rape. One of his sisters so, and we ve heard, in several interviews ed described this, and he describes it in a way that,

makes you really realise how tormenting this was for him. This was a form of some kind of psychological abuse because he was afraid to be in the basement by himself right, but there was there any evidence that he would do this, or is this just a minute nonsense, fear by his mother. How that he would rape or molest the sister right. That's really good question and I've. This is a thing that I have often wondered about because now, let's say you're his mother. you are now in a situation where much later in life. This is projected as being a form of abuse in torment that you instilled on only one child out of three. You gonna signalled out this do so. Without this dude and put him through hell- and you know- It's kind of like a cinderella situation right tree

bad in the other good well, but you'd hit on something important here. What if there is some type of evidence that he will, molested or maybe even raped his sister yeah. Then in aceh sure preventing the torture or abuse of another of your children using mean by putting him in the basement were right in I put in out in a shed right, but now this is also the fifties, so the basement they're, not what basements are now basements- must have been terrible. The fifty ryan that there probably were- and I I heard also that he could hear rats, possibly yes. So the thing when we talk about edmund camper here that we should be completely clear about regarding this story is that there has been variations of his childhood variations of his story throughout the years. I wonder what is fact in what is fiction after

All these years have passed. I do know in our view that he gave he described sleeping in the basement and describe it simply as every night he would go down here. You know he would. He would walk down the stairs so picture like an old rickety wooden, staircase he would walk down the stairs and there was a single light at the bottom of the staircase, and he would you know, has the string hanging from it. reach up any would pull the strings to turn it on, and then he said that that would only light up basically that corner of the basement, while he slept in the far corner away from that, so he would walk all the way because he was afraid of being in the dark in the basement by himself. While that was that's the age where your mom says, go, get the a towel out of the basement, he go okay and then you brave the courage it's middle of the day and he turn on the light, and then you grabbed the towel. And now you have to turn off the light, but you have to run up the stairs

you're, so afraid that some he's gonna grab you write, so he would walk the length of the basement. Basically to the other end where there was another light hanging- and he would put you know with the string and he would pull the string and turn that light on, and then he would all the way back to turn off the light that was near the stairs and he their most reports and stories would say that he was locked in the basement. Every night although if that, in fact is true, because his own words state that he he was in closing the the basement door. He actually references that he would. yelled out by his mom because of the the code would see up into the house if he'd enclose the basement door and she did not feel the cold

so nice of her? I don't know if he could hear rats. You know the that's. The other rumor was that he could hear the rats scratching around in the ny hour. If that was just made up in his head, yeah or or if it's just a story to make it worse than what it actually was an all reality say there were no rats. At the very least, we have an eight year old boy. many whose very young men the young as well emotional, young sleeping by himself in a dark cold basement to which its so called that he's required to shut them more so the cold doesn't seep into the rest of the house. At the very least in the middle of the night, he's going to hear the furnace turning on and off. So there would be noises that would probably startle him and wake him up or scare him throughout the night

right, and on top of that, why are you there? Why are you in the basement? If you know it's because your mother fears this, then it's late and again, if there's no evidence that you're going to do this or even capable of doing that, do you then become capable of doing it, because you essentially being accused of being capable of doing while the other thing to captain is. It is no question that His mother was an alcoholic, so there could be a skewed perception on her behalf as too. Was going on in her home if she was or under the influence a lot of the time while she was home but camper did engage in psychotic in sight how behaviour early on so he started off by dismembering his sisters, dolls, This was all based around a violent fantasy that he would later tell us about killing his other and his sisters. Now one book disguise

this scenario, pretty simply in something something like this stating that, as ed sat awaken the cold dark basement at night and his hatred, ruined grew. He fantasize about killing the females upstairs so ran because he's less than rang and they made him less then, but also just because you're son ripped apart your daughter's baby, our barbie dolls- I don't know that's a sign of aid and the fact that he is stating that it was a replication of how you would murder his family. Now, that's that's all different level, but a kid just written a part, a doll! That's sometimes boys will just be boys yeah and he said that he he started off by like popping off their heads. You know so like if you picture like a a barbie doll or any kind of doll. They usually have like that plastic head connected to a much stiffer stronger, sturdier plastic body, and he says you know

He would get like pleasure from hearing that that noise, when he would pull the head from the body brain well later He said that he actually believes he even received some kind of, or got some kind of sexual arousal. By doing this, and look I'm just gonna put this question out now, because we're gonna be talking a lot about his viewpoints on things and again. This is this is also hindsight. Is he just making some of this stuff up later in life to make him seem more interested? I mean this is a guy that wants to talk. He wants to be heard. He wants people, listen to him. Are they more likely to listen to you if you're coming up with these and arresting scenarios? Well in here captain where I think we should probably drop a bit a warning for the listeners, as gonna get into a couple things that I know some people don't like to hear about in this is tippit

behaviour of a lot of these serial killer. So Some of you might wanna just kind of fast forward about a minute men and a half or so so One of these behaviors, the camphor camper, was showing us as it as a young man when he was a teenager earliness ten years, This included the torture and killing of animals. Now the family had two cats were of arm he buried alive any later, dug up in. What's he stored the carcass of the cat in a closet in their house and then the second cat he killed with machetes. So this a different situation, much different one buried alive, the other he's actually physically attacking it with a machete to the point of he's getting blood on himself during the course of killing this animal bright. But this is a huge step up from this memory,

Dolls, yes, and actually I found this quite interesting. Some psychologists say that cats are the most kill, animals by these young later to be serial killers because of a couple of psychological reasons, one most by far most senior killers are men and many have suggested that the cat on some psychological level is representative. The female gender. and then a lot of these guys kill for their hate of a single female. Or of all of the gender, why? I you see this with Dahmer. You also saw with the cat torture, videos of lucca magnesia, a k, puke hata, but in that scenario, with the lucas. not a case of his victim was was a male yeah, and so that's that's wise. They believe they can

usually you know we see the torture of different animals. We certainly did when we talked about bt k and, as you mentioned, others but seems to be that cancer, the most often killed by these guys. Now this is good time for us to introduce what the mind hunter guys would refer to as the homicidal triad while hold on. This is a good time to apologize for people that we probably should have two and a half minutes fast forward, two and a half minutes, so he probably caught that tail anon we're sorry about that. Yes, the the homicidal triad as the my hundred guys would later come up with. This is ass. Years of studying these serial killers and enter viewing them in coming up with and getting information straight directly from them, so these behaviors, these three behaviors

that? We would see time and time again in the childhood of these eventual serial killers. Are these three types of of things one fire starting to bed wedding and through the cruelty to animals. I'm a fire starter twisted fire starter. I I I so I'm with that edmund and his he wed in the bed. Is he making the what basement wetter? I don't know about wetting the bed or fire starting, but we do know he was doing the cruelty to animals. But this is, I mean throughout their studies. This is something that they would see enough to the point that they came up with a name for the homicidal triad, and this is something that they would see out of the serial killers where they are

the often exhibit one or two or all three of these behaviors during their the course of their childhood was there's different levels to have like pyromaniac. So I mean when you're a kid, especially a young boy in you, yet a box of matches or you get a lighter you're, going to light every toy that you can on fire, but then sometimes you're hanging out with one of your buddies and they're like to the extreme, and I think, that's kind of what they're talking about. There's. Always going to be somewhat of a fascination special with little boys playing with lighters, matches yeah yeah, so put people out there listening shouldn't freak out. If they have experienced some, I would freak out if your son or daughter is doing the cruelty to animals thing. That seems to me to be a different level, but, like you said some kids play with fire. Some some kids wit the ban

I mean right- and I dont know how much I think years later, I'm curious to see how much they think the bed way It is actually involved because it's not that's not a destructive behaviour. When you compare it to the other two, you know not instructive behaviour. Behavior at all. You have a oh wedding of the bed problem. Well, but they're talking about so your defending this one. Now not defending any of it. What I'm saying is it, then what they mean by bed wedding is of of accounts. the older age right, you know, if you the three year old kid in their went in the bed. Sometimes there just a three year old kid right anyway. It's What we do know is admin grew up to hate his mother and at the age of fourteen he ran away from home. This is in search of his father s. Fines is father Van eyes, california, so many caught up it was looking for a better basement. Well, when he caught up with us

other. His father had a new family and he didn't want Edmund staying with them. So camper said just him being around gave his stepmom. migraine headaches, so he wished Don t go live with his father's parents on a seventeen acre farm in north folk, California, he had, but could ok, let's say: you're, not Ok, so you are married and then you bring your son around and your wife Hossain. I get my grains. This kid gives me migraines. You really gonna pick this loony tune. over your son. Well, you gotta keep a mine. He's already chose to not choose his son he's right now. Living with his son. He's already walked away from that job and from that responsibility, and that

Why? But you also see, I wonder what actions were between or what kind of relationship was their violence or anything between campers mother father? What what was their dynamic like? Because if she is, you know This alcoholic loony too, then you'd think on some love. Ok, yeah! I didn't choose you them, but a things are probably pretty bad for you. Maybe I should do so. Well, he would have had a good idea, and when I say he I mean Edmunds father would add a good idea because I believe his I don't remember the exact words, but something something similar to this. He stated that being with clear now, with edmunds, mom was worse than the time he spent fighting in the war and he was from my understanding, like he referred to his time in the war he was in in served. I don't know which war it was, but he served

we're year in combat to what he referred to a suicide missions. he said being with her, was worse and more frightening than being in those suicide missions, said to her yeah, so you would have to so you're a you're a bit yeah, but well here's my point, though, it's worse than a suicide mission and that's what you're in your eight year old son through in his opinion, yes and then, when your son finally shows up and leaves their assets look. I didn't like living there, so I've ice. I saw you out. I came in, I found you I do have to give some some credit here, and you know I'm not liking edmund's father at all. I don't I don't say he sounds like a he's, a piece of shit. I don't appreciate him not being around four edmunds childhood or for taking the responsibility of being a real father, but what I will give him: therefore, is sending him to his parents. Home,

other than shipping and back to clear now, all right so use a piece of shit, but you a little less piece of shit cause. You sent him with her, parents. Well, he probably figured hey. If I can't raise you here, then I'm going to look I turned out you. Maybe he considers he turned out pretty fine and he maybe he has good fond memories. His childhood and thought well I'll. Send you to go live with my parents, key imagine what this country would be like or what this world would be like if every man actually manned up and raise their kids. Well, that's a big portion of of this study into the serial killers and why said We'll take a look at this situation and try to figure out if admin camper was born evil. or if he was made to be evil, because the very simplistic thought of a serial killer is this that they cannot have

in in you can email me. You can hit me up on the blog. You can do whatever you want, but you it would be tough to convince me. Otherwise for a person to knowing and willingly and plan out the murder of multiple people of multiple individuals they cannot have. the same or share the same emotions that quote unquote normal people have so I don't, they have the same emotions as we do with about. Does that excluding like soldiers? Well again, that's that that to me as a different situation. A serial killers are very defined type of of person and killer. where a soldier is a different definition of a killer. Technically, they both are. They both are killers, but there are there huge differences between the two so again

Why don't they had so? Then? The question then becomes: why don't they have the same emotions? Why don't they the same responses as we would too. their environments and to begin years around them into treatments that their receiving and this You go back and you really get to probably the simplest form of this is. Does it start with? being a little baby, and does it start with have a mother. They didn't want you and having a father that wasn't there and not developing those emotions and not of you, know developing those behaviors empathy and not developing empathy at a very young age. One also known that it doesn't always have to be that order. Sometimes it's the mother that rejects them and the father's still around, but he is just the not suit such a great father, so there I think you see

happen multiple ways, yes in and not all serial killers had a horrible time growing up horrible childhood, but some of them did, and I do under stand that there are a lot of people out there. They had bad childhood because look if, if ever but he out there that had a bad, a quote on quote what they have determined to be a bad childhood re grew up to kill people and the double digits in the you know ten or more people would be running out of people on this planet. So it's saying it's an excuse. It's more of a quiet, of why and how all right, so, his father ships him off to live with his parents, vs on seventeen acre farm in north folk california, and has seen, like ed, got along well with his grandfather, but not so much with his grandmother, grandmother, was a bit of a strict disciplinarian. His grandparents got him a twenty two rifle for christmas for small game hunting

There are differing stories about what I'm about to tell you, but the simple truth of it is this that, on august, twenty seventh nineteen sixty four fifteen year old, edmund camper, used his christmas present to shoot his grandmother in the back three times ass. She sat at the kitchen table typing afterwards. He stabbed her three times with a kitchen knife. This is because he says that he You want her to suffer. He wanted to end it for her as quickly as possible, the reason being for killing his grandmother he's still over the years that there's been several reasons, but the one that he cites the most often is he wanted to see what it would feel like. So his grandfather was out. It was not home during the time when he killed his grandmother and and the reason why I say there are differing stories about this is because there is the way

these stories go is either his grandfather was out in town shopping and then return home or he was out hunting and the air was mad that he could not go or upset that he could not go. Hunting with his grandfather well. If his grandfather effect was now hunting than we know, he wasn't mad about that right, regardless when his grandfather returned to the home as edward describe it there had a brief interaction where his and father wave to him. You know, is getting out of his truck and he waves to him and, like I said it seems like the two of them had had a good relationship and add waited till his grandfather turned his back and he shot his grandfather, he would later than hide the body in a closet, and he said that he his grandfather for reasons that all see

to stem from not wanting him to have discovered that they had just killed his grandmother yeah. Maybe not one in him to see the body may be, not one in him to be disappointed and an camper yeah, a problem several things here so not wanting him to be angry at or upset with ed disappointed and, as you said, or also though the loss of life of his wife right. You know his long time companion. The weird thing, though captain, we ve actually heard this with several other cyril killers in it and how reference bt k as a prime example. Here is admin immediately felt like, Any time a whole bunch of we're going to come to get him like everyone in the whole world probably knew what he had just done and that they are going to come up there. They're going to arrest him they're going to attack him they're, going to kill him any number of those things right and we heard that would be

tk dennis rader would say that often when he would go out and he would kill somebody or kill multiple people, he felt like the first forty eight hours afterwards that the police just going to show up at any time at his door. Knocking and saying We know what she did body now, your arrest it it's like this paranoia sets it neck, that's interesting and so Ed, said the in that situation. He was going to shoot. and kill any one that would have approached the the farm or the house at that time. That was his mind set at the time, so we almost have to count our blessings here in some form right because he's out seventeen acre far out in kind of the middle of nowhere. If he were in a major city when he had done this, can you imagine all the innocent people that work coming to get him? That would probably have been killed. That too, I mean you. Even something is some. As the person delivering the male right, you know

have a scenario where be you'd, be a mass murderer and they would were caught him and then the other. The zero killings would never have well that's tough to say that stuff, to not tough, to say when I'm out, I'm assuming as that in the sixties, sixty four or if you had a guy that went on a rampage going around killing people in a city that the cops are gonna common arrests that individual yes, but. essentially isn't that what ended up happening and what I mean by that is that ok, so we get lucky there's nobody else there and at some point his paranoia wears off he calls his mother and explains what he had done and he is want to be picked up. Like you said he gets arrested for killing his grandparents right. four was committed to the task. Darrow state hospital for the criminally insane.

Captain I wanna, let everybody out there are no. I received a lot of great emails. Several people asking about specific cases to cover a mention, a few of them here. one the honey and bury sherman case the Tita louis case, the Amy Mahal of a case, and laura superior. I want to point out that we do cover all of these cases already- and I find all of our back catalogue. It's a huge back at a log where, over two hundred sixty episode strong. Now you can get our back catalogued for free and listen to those cases. On the stage. Europe will have a show on central premium caught off the record. It's five dollars a month and you get every premium show

it's a premium. I we will talk more ed camper, the kohen killer tomorrow back here in the garage. Until then everybody be good beat. I don't live.