This episode is supported by progressive insurance where customers, save an average of over seven hundred and fifty dollars when they switch in save visit, progressive dot com to get or car insurance quote. It only takes up seven minutes national annual average otto insurance savings by new customers surveyed in two thousand and nineteen potential savings will very do you. Valuable diamond jewelry or a luxury watch that you are wearing. Why not dusted? and sell it with worthy turn, those peace into investments that will grow or use your new found, cash for their vacation or home remodel I ve been dreaming of worthy is a selling partner that you can trust to get you the most money possible for your jewelry risk. free and now, for a limited time, you'll get an extra one hundred dollars when your job, resells for over fifteen hundred. All you have to

who is register at worthy dot com, slash garage, that's worthy dot com, slash garage, welcome to true, graham garage, where view or whatever you doing, thanks re listening. I'm your hosts naked with b is always it's been years,

these dance, the calypso and, of course, I'm talking about the cap that's cause. Captain has a wooden leg with real. It's gotta be seen good to see you thanks for listing thanks for town a friend. Today we are drinking light speed by brew dog. Why? Because we are hoping and praying that this week's unsolved gaze gets some justice, how fast light fast light. Speed is a delicious hazy ip and only ninety nine calories and who brooding can this beer? You heard me correctly the first time brood, so you know it's super super garage great three out of five bottle caps, and here are some of our friends that are super quality. First up we have wit and yorktown heights the big shots, pam and see and missouri. Next we have Jamie

and santa Rosa California, and a big shelter victoria. I think it's pomona new york. Next captain we have kitty to lula in london, england and last, but certainly not least, we have mary in Malta, everyone we just mentioned. They helped us out what this week's beer funded for that. Well, we think yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Be that way. You are you in tehran. If you need your ear ball smacked around the little bit check out. Our bonus show cut off the record. It sounds tat. Your premium only constitute a premium. Also, you can find our podcast, wherever you listen, I guess, but were also on the serious x in europe for all you, serious listeners, colonel dent That is all right. Everybody gathered round grab a chair, gravel beer. Let's talk some programme

the or youngsters who all dogma fire at their family home soon how the fire started. Investigators, looking at the first floor electoral system, the girls with two police officers and try to save the sisters eyes at such an early age such a heavy loss, the she was a single mom working very hard and the babies her age. The I can't imagine the Sadly, on november twenty third, two thousand and sixteen the carol

county comment ran the following report, but the headline for sisters parish and floor fire, the article red impart an early morning, fire Monday november, twenty first two thousand and sixteen and flora claimed the lives of forces. authors, ages, eleven, nine, seven and five and sent their mother and two police officers to the hospital. The victims names have not been released. nine hundred and eleven was called at three hundred and thirty five, a dot m to a two unit apartment building located at one hundred and three east columbia, street when emergency personnel arrived, flames were visible according to floor town marshall, Paul redmond the victims, families resided on the main level, which also includes an upstairs bedroom, where the girl slept officers,

biology or five riders removed, the girls who were not breathing from the residents redmond said they were hard to resuscitate them, but could not victims. Mother was airlifted to an indianapolis hospital for treatment, a county debbie was flown to afford wayne hospital for treatment of smoke, inhalation and birds to his hands and face a floor. Police officer was transported to lafayette hospital for treatment of smoke inhalation. couple occupying the upstairs apartment escaped unharmed fire units, Delphi, Camden, burlington and cutler also responded according to Edmund the fire, was knocked down quickly. Also helping at the scene, where the care county sheriff's department, any anna state, police and other police units Indiana department of homeland security and state fire marshal along with low,

authorities are conducting an investigation as to the cause of the fire. Redmond said the victims were students at carol elementary school carols councillors as well as others from near by school corporations and local ministry were available, at the school to help, students and staff cope with the tragedy comment will run dozens of articles about the fire and fatalities for the weeks and months to come. We have covered several house fires and arson stories on true crime garage and unfortunately, there were fatalities in those fires as well, but stop and really think about it. For a while. There are few things: more terrifying than a house fire Imagine waking in the night, the house still dark. The smell of smoke is strong. That of your bed with one thought, my children, he rushed from the room only to be confirmed.

Did with a wall of black smoke so thick your eyes, water, your throat, birds and your long. Seize up. The heat searing your skin, to the point where you are sure that you are on fire screaming is impossible, as you are overtaken by car and you stagger out the front door, choking and gasping for air, and your children are still inside this is what happened in the middle of the night on november twenty first, two thousand and sixteen and flora. Indiana later we learn this deadly house. Fire was no accident. This is true grand garage, and this is the floor. Fire case

in november, two thousand and sixteen little girls to yoni key opera, Piana carol lived with their mother Galen rose and a rented apartment inside a duplex in the tiny town of flora Indiana, the house was situated on a corner right next to downtown flora. This is a town of just one square mile occupied by two thousand residents Small town of floor is located in carol county indiana, the house Galen. her girls lived in located at one o. Three east colombia street was divided into two separate apartments: the family of five our family that were discussing, lived in one half and other tenets, a mom and her two kids occupied the other. Half of this duplex galen in her kids slept on two different floors of the home. The girl slept in bedroom

upstairs and Galen occupied a room on the main level. The forced sisters were normal little girls who love to play outside and were big time into cheerleading, and that is an understatement. I cannot emphasise enough big time into cheerleading they were on various competitive. Cheering teams and they ranged in age from five to eleven, so preschool age, up to the sixth grade neighbors later tell the media that the kids were always playing outside. They were very nice and polite children. They said the mom was friendly

We say hello, the girls love to play with other neighbourhood, kids, dogs and we're always smiling and dancing one floor resident said they were so joyous. They were very happy girls. I've never seen them not smiling, always on the front porch waving it everybody that went by they didn't know a stranger. Well, let's get to the details of this tragic event: ok, captain! So on the weekend of november. eighteenth through the twentieth two thousand and sixteen the girls had a cheer competition on that saturday afternoon on sunday, gotta. Who was big and a basketball. She had a game, so the five members of this family went to the grocery store and went home to eat dinner. After this basketball game and after dinner, it would be bedtime for the girls on sunday

This is the twentieth. The girls all went to bed around ten p m upstairs in their room. Galen slept alone downstairs, so she said She went to bed around the same time as well, but around three Forty, a m Galen wakes up. Here's what happened per fox fifty nine news. This is, everyone was asleep. The girls were upstairs and Galen was in her bedroom. On the main floor until she said, intense smoke woke her up. The whole entire house was full of smoke. I couldn't really see Galen said I pretty much tried to save my babies by running up the steps I got half way I couldn't breathe and I just ran out of the house

to try to help now Galen stood in the front yard in her nightgowns screaming, but other screams could be heard as well. Coming from inside the house, a neighbor one of many awakened by the sounds of Distraught mother called nine one one. The first to respond was carol county sheriffs deputy drew yoda. He rushed into the house when Galen screamed at him that her children were still inside. He was quickly forced to retreat from the burning structure. Second, to respond was floor. Police officer, Josh dissing, her the two officers attempted it enter the home several more times, but they had to pull back each time on another attempt: disallowing her had to pull yoda out of the home because the smoke was so dance the flames so hot

later yoda said to the journal and courier. The third time is when things were bad all, I remember, is waking up in the ambulance with dissing. Her standing over me telling me that everything was going to be ok, firefighters were able to be on this in very quickly by the time they arrive. We have smoke in flames that are billowing from the house. Galen rose stood on the front lawn screaming hysterically. The to law enforcement officers were down by this point injured by their repeated attacks. Into the home re. So shortly after three thirty a m, we have an e m t who lived next door to the family. Her name is Angela Francis. She was away can buy the screaming she ran out help and was immediately you know, thrown into the situation where she's helping in assisting anyone that she can increase

the ambulances that are now arriving on the scene. We also have a neighbor chassis fox, her her husband also went outside of their home. That night and watched horrified as as, sadly, the first responders failed to save the children per fox. Fifty nine galen rose recalled the ambulance. Man told me that my babies is no longer here and after that moment I don't remember anything. Galen was sedated and air lifted from the scene to a spittle in indianapolis. Her condition was listed as critical but stable. She was in the hospital for nearly a week the floor. Fire fires were eventually able to pay. out this fire one by one p m tease brought out for little bodies on stretchers deputy odor suffered burns to his hands and face and smoke inhalation.

He was airlifted to a burn unit in fort wayne where he stayed for several days. He wrote a hand written note to officer de singer that red quote: you saved my life if Josh he later says it has no recollection of writing. This note. dissing. Her was treated at the lafayette hospital. He too had smoke inhalation, but he was released Monday night The two men had done everything in their power to try to save all four girls. Unfortunately, they just failed that the smoke was too bad. The fire was too big and just think I have little fires at my house. You know outside

low bonfires you're moving around those firewood and bore me hit with some smoke, and you start coffin and choking immediately and that's a little fire and your surrounded by fresh air. Can you imagine how you'd react or how the body would react when her hit with smoke and when your gasping for air, all your body, it is getting is or smoke the residents of the other half of the home. Remember we have a woman with her two children that lived there. She was able to escape that night without any injury at all. Luckily, her children were not home with her that night carol. County coroner, J D, cree announced at all for girls, had died of asphyxiation due to smoke inhalation manner.

Of death was listed as accidental. This was obviously devastating to the family, but also all the fire fighters that were involved in trying to save these girls lives and devastated the whole community, so they held the funeral at the local high school. This is one of those horrible situations that we hear about captain where the first responders are now traumatized for months and even years to come. The funeral itself, be unbearable we're talking about four children here. The carol elementary school provided grief councillors for the students who all the girls students created banners and cards and post them all along the walls of the school and a candlelight vigil was held on tuesday evening of that week, afterward people

livered meals to Galen, rose in her family and fun, razors and sales from a cookbook raised money for her to help try in some way to reach. build her life deputy odor, who we have already talked about. Who was on the scene and tried several times to get back in the house. He was obviously devastated by the incident, as was every and he when he learned that the girls had not been saved, he was crushed. He says you know, I know these girls, I drove through flora all the time for work, and I would see them he says quote: those girls were always outside on a nice day. Dancing around in the greatest thing is they would all stop smile and wave as you pass by. He had

then spoken with Galen, who was a cashier at a gas station in town, so he knew her as well. This is one of those situations. It's a small town, not a lot of people, and he shows up in responding trying to save people that he knows, people that he has seen in his every day. Life. Oh first responders gets no gas station attendance a lot because they stop and get coffee at all hours of the night and In a small town of your cashier anywhere, you really get to know a lot of people in the community. These four girls were absolutely beautiful, girls, absolutely beautiful and captain. You know twenty years ago, I worked at a gas station and I've always recommended here. If you work at a gas station, offer free coffee to all the officers to first responders, get those people in your stores and take care of them on that

Andy captain. This was like three thirty in the morning on that monday. So now we have all this tragedy that happens in the middle of the night and have fire vessel gaiters who are going to have to begin the process of sifting through the debris, rubble and ass to try to determine the point of origin, because we have four fatalities here we have an investigation that has to happen zactly, so we have assisted chief of the burning to fire department. Derek Jackson has said is just a fire that happened at night. People were sleeping in didn't wake up in time, right. But it is not really that simple. As we know the indiana state police, they were the official lead investigative agency on the case, the actual on the scene. Fire investigation would require experts, the fight,

would be investigated by the indiana state fire marshals office, which is part of the indiana department of homeland security, and this would be well rather extensive and ongoing investigation and the first few days fire, investigator Dennis randal would only say that the fire was categorized as undetermined pending review of the structure by an electrical engineer, most house fires and even business fires are electrical at the point of origin right, and so I'm, assuming that that's what they were thinking they could be looking at here in this particular fire. This also older building that's correct. Throughout the years the electric codes change and part of the house. Possibly was it up to code, and so after a few days of investigation, they were.

Really sure what caused the fire they were still listening. The official ruling is undetermined, even at that time. They were able to determine that the fire it started in the kitchen, possibly behind the refrigerator, and there are other reports out there. They say that the fire started at the back of the house on the ground floor, I want to be clear about something here: it's not been we're gonna go. through this along our time line here and even in these early stew,

images of their investigation, the first couple of days in we're getting conflicting reports about the origin of the fire where it started they've not officially released to this day where that fire started. So when you hear us reading off different points of where the fire could have started bright, just know that nothing is absolutely official on those statements. These are from reports that have come out since the investigation has been going on, while a lot of people think that it's possibly it was starred behind the oven as well. You you hear that on several reports. The sad fact is their running this house. This is a mother, a single mother, for trying to put her kids in the best sense vision that she can the running a house without smoke detectors yeah d, the official

statements that I have, or at least the reported statements that were coming out early on was it no foul play was suspected that Nine officer on the scene had found no presence of accelerants and further investigation and found that a smoke detector at the top of the stairs on the second floor had no batteries in it and it was melted from the heat of the fire and there is of a portion of the statement here captain this is. There were no working smoked detectors in the part of the house where the family lived right. By early december, the federal bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms had officially joined the fire. Investigation is

clear whether their assistance was requested or if they decided to jump in to this investigation. The case went quiet shortly after that, as the investigators did their thing, and that is the end of any normal see in this tragic case from here on, our it goes kind of hey wire, in my opinion, the long he donkey two months after the fire. On january twenty eightth, there was big news. So remember. We ve been told already by this point in our time, line that there was no reason to suspect foul play right and that there were no detected, tolerance by the canine officers that the girls deaths were still listed, is accidental at this point and so on, but now As of that january, twenty eightth, two thousand and seventeen

Release from the state fire marshals office stated that the fire was the result of arson. Again, we, a fire of us, get her dennis randal. He said in a statement released on that saturday quote the november twenty first, two thousand sixteen flora, indiana fire has been ruled incendiary at this time. There are no such investigators determined the fire to be incendiary after accelerants, were found in several locations of the structure and quote. As you can imagine captain this is huge news. Accelerants are found in several locations based off of the statement- yeah, and this has several locations inside the house occupied by Galen. the girls, so fires no accident or the result, faulty wiring or even electrical short. This now being told, is a fire that was deliberately set. The

were youngsters who all dogma fire at their family home we're how the fire started. Investigators lacking at the first floor electoral system the girls mother, along with two police officers, who tried to save the sisters. Ives was such an early age such a heavy loss, the she was a single mom working very hard and the babies her age. The I can't imagine the as a true crime garage listener. You know the world can sometimes be a scary place.

but no matter what happens out their home should be the safest place. There is simply safe is advanced. Whole home security that puts you your home and your family's safety first simply safe offers comprehensive protection against intruders, burglary and expensive home hazards like flooding and fires, were twenty four seven professional monitoring. Simply saves agents action. The moment a threat is detected despair police or first responders in an emergency if you're, not home or can't be reached, simply safe uses. Proprietary video there vocational technology, so that monitor agents can visually confirm the threat in order to get higher priority nine. When one dispatch monitoring plans are affordable,

priced at one dollar a day with no long term contract or hidden fees. It's the security system named best home security by. U S, news and world report a third year in a row You can customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes at simply safe dot com. Slash garage go today, and claim a free indoor, security, camera plus twenty percent off with interactive monitoring. Again that simply safe dotcom, slash garage and now a word from our sponsor better help. It's my favorite sponsor it's one. I use most often it's what has changed my life, so dramatic The mental health is so important and something that we need to be discussing every day. You need invest time into yourself and taking care of you

of I've tried many ways to make my mental health better and with better help. Online therapy is look it's the best thing I've done for my mental health period, but our hope is online there. either offers a video phone or even live chat only therapy sessions. So if you I want to see any one on camera. You don't have to as much more affordable than in person therapy and is available worldwide. Better help will assess your needs and can match you with your own accredited therapists. An under forty eight hours visit better help, dot com, slash garage and joined the over two million people like me, who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of experience professional are listeners, get ten percent of their first

if that better help dot com, slash garage, that's better h, e l, p, dot com, slash garage, I love better help you're going to love better help. I know you will check out better help dot com slash garage today Whatever your wellness gulls, maybe hull foods market can help you reach them from their nourishing beauty, hair selection and huge variety of supplements to their beautiful and season produce. You can divide, but well, miss means to you by what you putting your card with so many local and see then I'll find you can discover a new phase but each time you enter the sore, not sure where to start ask a team of every help see what they recommend. Maybe you'll, find a hidden. Jim when a path along to be healthy, be happy, be whole at hull foods, market. The

all right we're back, and we just won't take a quick minute to wish all of you guys in your family a happy turkey day a happy and safe thanksgiving to everybody out their talk hands in the air. I cheers cheers now for anyone who's paying a ten. into our cases that we cover here in the garage and the dates and locations than we have discussed so far you may realise something pretty significant flora that little town abuts another small town in Indiana that was rocked by a crime in which two girls were murdered, Abby Williams in libby german, were murdered on the moon and high bridge trail in delphi indiana, on february thirteenth, two thousand seventeen. This was literally just three months after the floor fire. So now we have six young girl,

who have all died under suspicious circumstances in just a period of three months and about a distance of eight miles away, all in carol county indiana. Again these budding counties they share community. They share com in the events, but they also share family members, so you have one county are a grieving, and now you have another one grieving as well. It's it's very tragic time that region, and then you have the effect it. This was going to take some of the resources away from the floor. Fire investigation that being the delphi investigation so far one thing, as we know, newer cases, always get the most attention from law enforcement bus.

people have wondered whether this was a race related issue and if the four daughters that were killed in the floor fire were white. Some have said that the investigators have continued. Their investigation with more vigour yeah. I don't know how much vigour it had, but the vessels fish and if we continued so the force sisters case, got no televised press conferences. No national news exposure, no public, outcries that the culprit would be brought to justice, in fact, robber, if the carol counting prosecutor at the time, somebody who we ve quoted here before when we ve talked about the delphi case right as he wasn't even notified. The arson was suspected six months after the fire. He told fox. Fifty nine labs tests have been done. Lab results have come back, but

I haven't received anything like a final police report. Not once aspect had been brought to his attention. He said, and it goes on to say, quote the floor. Fire has had as much investigation put on it as many people involved as much serious consideration, as probably any other case. I've ever been involved in, except for the delphi, merle

well. Obviously, it's going to be investigated by law enforcement, but this investigation is going to be trumped because it's going to be investigated by the firefighters as well, but I think one of the reasons why it didn't get as much coverage initially is because the reports was. This is an accident. Okay, if it's an accident, it's a tragic event and we're going to talk about it. N and now we have these funerals. The community is going to come together, analysed start working to move past this. If it came out the night of the fires or the next day that no, we believe this is one hundred percent arson, then you're looking at a murder, invest creation right away. I think that's one of the reasons it didn't get the coverage that it deserved. Yes, this is a horrible horrible situation, nobody's denying that, and neither nobody should he

be comparing which situations more tragic by their equally tragic, and I your spot on here captain apart the reason why we have a less information or at least less news coverage national outcry for justice. Here is the fact that you just said it was originally road or thought to be either undetermined or accidental, and so that takes little bit away from that sentiment from everybody to begin with, but the other thing to I dont know that it's really truly fair to kind of compare the investigations or the efforts put forward on these two cases. It doesn't feel to me like we're, comparing apples to apples. It's a little more apples to oranges here, because very few we ve been

when this a very long time. I have seen very few cases that have received as much attention as the delphi murder cases yeah it's well look at it'd, be like every child that is murdered, saying it's not fair, that jon Benet ramsey case got covered more than theirs. That's a good example and the on top of that in the true crime, podcast community law, the creators we know or more likely to cover unsolved murder case, then unsolved arson case. It is not covered as much in the true crime world. Yes- and I feel like with the delphi case really the there's only a handful of cases. It I think, have received as much more publicity. Then the delphi case- and I mean we're talking John Bernay, the OJ simpson case, there's very few out there now. What I do believe here in this case for the floor fire case.

is, I would have liked to see more eyes and your balls on this from the get go, because I do think that there's somebody out there that might know something, but the investigation, itself has been a little weird and that's. Why said earlier, that that's gonna be the last of the normal see in this case and in this investigation, because we what we here is first off arson is very difficult to determine and investigate right now, The other problematic thing for the investigation itself is most states and cities do not have a high clearance rate when it comes to arsons to clearing arson cases, meaning Most of the time they don't make an arrest or get a conviction in the arts. In case, like you said, it's a tough investigation, because smoke destroys evidence, fire destroys.

Evidence similar to a crime happening and the victim being placed into water, that water is glen, destroy. So much evidence and before we move on to far into the investigation captain. I want to make sure that I point something out too, that really kind of take me off, as I was going through my research and looking into this horrible fire case here: at some point, when there was no news of a good suspect or finger pointing to people outside of the home. At some point, some member of the public started pointing their finger. At galen rose the mother of the three girls, and I found that incredibly, I think disgusting is the best word I

I stand that their suspicion and that when there has been no answers- and you cannot find the culprit of something so horrific as this- that you want to find somebody to blame that you want to point the finger and say I think- that's why I think that's the person that did it and that's why we don't yet have the answers. I get that end of it, but everything that I can see She does not make a good suspect other than the fact that we know she was in the home. That night, I see a woman here that has been destroyed, absolutely destroyed. You think that community was destroyed by this event. Her life has been has been hell. Sure every day for error has been hell and now we're coming up on five years since that horror what my issue is that she's she's a victim in this tragic event, law enforcement know that far. air fighters and their investigators know that to me,

have a duty to investigate this hard and fast, and if you can her out initially again, you didn't say it was arson right away, so it gets less covered with less coverage. Less people talking about it less likely you gonna have some talking and and have some confess into a friend or something of that nature, but so when you know that she was home, rule her in or out very quickly and that's long forts in three days into their investigation if they know that she is not a suspect, you come out and you stand hard that she is not a suspect, and if you do that, then you stopped the rumour meals and you stop having people online speculate and throw blame on this lady that is already suffering. So I said that the investigation itself was a little weird and I think everybody will agree with

because what we have here is remembered, the press release that we just went through where they are now changing the undetermined status to arson. So essentially, if it is arson, these four girls were murdered. Now the problem with that statement with that press release was we ed indiana state police as the lead on this case they were unaware that that press release was going to be issued. This was greed upon by all of the investigating agencies that hey we're ready to announced the public that we made it termination of arson here in this case and then in june, two thousand and seventeen. We have arson investigator, Dennis Randal, who abruptly resigned from his position He was the one that release that press release, saying that the fire was deemed arson after accelerants were found in several locations in the house. Now he is,

on record, saying time and time again that this disagreement between the agencies, nothing to do with him resigning. You know some people work at a time for a very long time or have a career. We all retire at some point, but one that we should note here is some of this disagreement came about because there was a senior fire investigator from michigan working for an insurance company on the fire case. He did I agree with randalls assessment of the accelerants or how the investigation was being conducted, So, in february of that year, he wrote a critical email to the indiana apartment of homeland security director and the indiana state fire marshal, stating the following

the january twenty eight two thousand seventeen press release by the state fire marshal about the conclusions of their investigation or not correct and completely based on speculation and not evidence. Also, the press release statement about accelerants being discovered in several locations is absolutely not based on any evidence discovered At the scene, during the investigation and the investigator Dennis, Randal was not performing a proper origin and cause investigation based on the current procedures of the. F P, a nine to one two thousand and sixteen addition this report filed an press release given by Dennis randal, is truly unfortunate. And potentially a grave and justice for the four little girls at perished in the fire. Well, colonel watch, your opinions on this

I think what we have here. Captain is a situation where we might have too many cooks and the kitchen we have about seven eight. Sees involved in this investigation in it To me, like communication, wasn't great between these different agencies, and I think it points in the investigation. Some of their findings seem to be contradicting themselves. Along the way or other agencies, findings bright. So I think everything was. set up with good intentions of working this thing together in the beginning. But again you have About seven agencies hit are involved in this investigation ike I feel like it going to go wrong at some point. Given the number of people involved

We have seen in many arson investigation where one expert states that this is a hundred percent, definitive that its arson and then years later they come back and say now. This is clearly accidental. This was faulty wiring. It becomes very convoluted and very hard to determine. we're not experts ourselves in this field. No, and we ve seen that expert opinion change throughout the years. This is a science that there still working on that there still working to perfect like everything else, and so we have cases that we ve looked at, that are twenty. Thirty years old look at him now and I am saying: go I dont know if they got it right, based off of the way that we see the science today brain and we could break down each point of this investigation, but it would take us hours upon hours, there's a lot of manoeuvre, but maybe colonel you

break down the major points of this. Well, sadly, captain in its simplest form, what we are being told by the experts once leading this investigation. Members of that seven agency team is at first, it wasn't foul play undetermined next, it was I'll play accelerants, were found in multiple locations inside the home, then a hold up, it might not be I'll play, we are still investigating to going back to eventually. It was in fact foul play. It was arson, but accelerants were only found in one spot and one low key asian and we're not being told exactly what that location. What yeah and when you have the community crying out for a if this is arson. Where are the suspects

who these guys are there, some way that we should be afraid of and our community. But this investigation can't get on the same track on if it was actually our arson to begin with, while in two thousand and seventeen and disease in December, they did a peer review, which I always like when these agencies do a peer review, so the indiana state police work Did that the indianapolis fire department send an experts to investigate the evidence. It was cool, it at the floor fire and we have on record sergeant Kim riley. Anyone familiar with e delphi case will know Kim riley. He says quo, it's a good practice to have fresh eyes, review and investigation, and since this case is believed to be arson, thee, indianapolis fire department was asked

to conduct the peer review by the end of january of two thousand and eighteen, the report from the indianapolis investigators was in. They confirmed that the fire was intentionally set. However, accelerants were found in We one location in the home, not several. In the wake of this report, the indiana state police announced that the criminal investigation would continue. So things started to look promising when we have dug carter again, people familiar with the delphi case, no dog carter he's the indiana state police spokesmen. He spoke with local news stations at this time. Any said overtime. People are starting to talk to us about that place about that home about that area and around the home. What might have been some of the activities in and around that residents? In the days

weeks and months leading up to the fire, he said police were not yet in a place where they could make an arrest, but quote. I believe that we will end quote since that, finding by season, arson investigators over three years have passed with no arrest, no publicly names us x and really no new information. So here we sit five, you after the fire, and all we figured out by this point is that it was intentionally set. It is an arson fire. There was for fatalities and accelerants were found in one location regarding this fire, but we're not getting a lot of information from investigators, so maybe we can get some information from the law suits in this case. Yes, captain in may of two thousand and eighteen galen roses.

Any filed a federal law suit, claiming that heard landlords. This is birch tree holdings were negligent because there were no working smoke detectors in the part of the house occupied by her and her children. They also made a product liability claim against sears and whirlpool. The documents filed claimed that an oven and arrange manufactured by whirlpool and sold by sears. was the cause of the fire because it was defective. Fire investigators had removed the range for testing. This part of the lawsuit, however, was dropped in twenty twenty. This after extensive testing revealed that the stove was not,

defective galen also alleges in her complaint that the house also had a back door that had no functioning lock and some outlets in the kitchen that did not work. Repairs to the outlets took place just a couple of weeks before the fire. Obviously, arson mitigates The fault on the part of the landlord, but the reality is the non working smoke detectors present a huge, huge problem for the landlords yeah. I feel like they're still that still neglect and again. You have a situation, have a single mother raising for children she's in a situation where again trying to provide the best home environment for kids. This might just be what she can afford and then sometimes young fella. You have a leg to stand on to go well, the house does it have this in the house? Does not have that and you,

to make these changes because you're afraid, when they evict you for whatever reason that you might not be able to find a better situation yet, and we have, the mother and family who have stated over and over again that they kind of feel like this cases and being worked as hard as it possibly could be that maybe it's been shoved under the rug. Since much time has gone by. We do have the indiana state police that have pushed back on that I here a little bit, they have outwardly said you know, we don't have any suspects in this case or we ve not named a suspect. In this case they ve said we have persons of interest. We have people that we would like to talk to people that we like to track down and speak with that

not been able to do yet so a little push back coming from indiana state police and in fact we have some words from doug corridor, the spokesmen that addresses some of that. He said to that. He was frustrated by these stagnated investigation, but he also said that the family has failed to provide critical information to move forward. The investigation saying quo, I'm hurt that they think we haven't done anything. Any state police investigators have taken trips to illinois kentucky oh hi in california in the hunt for clues Carter hinted that the investigation had stalled because of a lack of cooperation. He said that while Galen spoke with investigators after the fire, she has avoided conversations with investigators about who had access to her home carter said

it's very important that we understand who's been at the house who had been at the house what those dynamics were, and people who did at the home and right now we don't know what those answers are we have to get access to the entire family period and quote well again, all first responders to this, whether it's a accident or it was on purpose. The end result is for dead children that shouldn't be dead and those first responders are going to have to live with that for the rest of their lives and to think that doesn't affect them or that these the law enforcement doesn't want to solve this case. It's just. I can't believe that that is the case now, I'm with you captain. I dont think that that is the situation here. I think that this arson investigation is a difficult one. I'm not See here, though, and pretend that I dont think that they have made some stumbles the investigator

themselves along the way and there's been a but a controversy in regards to the original fire investigator and the investigation, as it were, that Dennis randal that we ve talked about his wife. Stealing money at one point: we're talking thousands and thousands of dollars from attorneys, and she eventually sent to do some jail time, some prison time. For that fact, so there already kind of a budding of heads between the indiana state carroll county and the fire department, because, while but this investigations going on there also deposing dennis randal to talk to him about his wife's, miss dealings and see if that he is in anyhow involved. or knowledgeable about what she was up to now. And to be perfectly clear they

He ruled that he had no knowledge of his wife's dealing money. So while she who's out doing these wrong deeds, he does seem to have any awareness of it by at least off of that, based off of their findings, but it's not a guy block from the outsider. Looking in that is going look, it's been five years. What happened here, where you can't deny that he was distracted correct because of this investigation and to his you know, let's just say it how it is bag. Why and I dont want to call the delphi double homicide case, a distraction, but it certainly doesn't help keep your focus on this horrible. situation, which has been deemed a crime. It's been deemed an arson right now as far suspects. I think we can touch on that a little bit here, because that's one thing this missing from a lot of the news reports. I think it's fine right. It's been

five years. Indiana state police I've had your guises back for a long time. We ve talked about delphi and in many other cases but sadly, in Indiana state is just like any other state. There are many cases that are unsolved, but I cannot I'm not going to shy away from my frustration that I'm starting to have with indiana state police and their poor record so far of clearing these very important cases will to say how it is, we have a six victims and then thousands of victims that are connected. They become victims because their connected to the murdered victims and those murdered children, their six murdered children that you have no goddamn answers for, come on their their batting a zero right now and I feel, like I'm still gonna have their backs for a while, I'm gonna give you another opportunity here: indiana state police, but this

truth of it is in regard to these two cases. It's not been a good luck. If you were on my baseball team, we private to cut catch a long time ago, but they don't give a shit together. I'm cutting their funding, I'll tell you that I'm not going to send any more beer fund money their way, since very few people were talking about suspects? Let's try to talk about some suspects here and again. This is going to be speculation on our part as we are not on the inside of this investigation if not allowed. Really anybody on the inside of this investigation, so a man named MIKE virgin, is one of the people who has been on the inside of this investigation and been inside the house since the fire. He runs his own fire, investigate company. He was hired by the mother of the four girls and her attorney. He has not worked with them for months by this

but he has said on the record that he still thinks about the house and the case often he said that he spent more than fifteen. Years as a certified fire investigator with the eighty f before starting his own company. So this dude legit right. He knows what he's doing he's been to more than one thousand fire scenes and investigated this one. Just weeks after it happened, there are still things that he does not want to share even while we're at the five year marker here, here's an extreme from an interview with him and a news team. The reporter here is Stephanie Zeppelin, basically captain he sale, relates to lead,

he is saying that where he thought the fire started is where it started: okay, so his initial suspicions, whenever his initial suspicions were when he got there and conducted his investigation, his suspicions were confirmed. Zepplin goes on push him and say- and that is where an virgin says- I can't really see right now, because if we get to a point in the allegations that they make an arrest the only bull that should know where the fire started is the person who said it and the investigators rain he says: did he believes that the fire was an arson, but that the goal was not to kill the children

He is also not sure whether everything possible is being done to solve the case of its not to kill the children than what it was for. Why was of fire started? He done he's he's being vague on purpose, because he thinks that the answers to these questions would leave. Due to the parson roar or may confirm once you have the correct suspect across from you at the interview table right well, because the delphi case has been covered considerably more than this case. There are people out there that have tried to connect the delphi murders to the floor of fire. I think it's fair. the do so. We're talking about time and proximity to the two cases are relatively close and the victim ology is varies. We're talking about young girls here

in all the situations, but to me captain I look at this and I go in the delphi case. Those girls were absolutely targeted now how premeditated that was is up for debate, but here at the floor fire case, you could almost say that the house was targeted. And I say that because I did quite a bit of research on cereal arsonist. Anna at times they will start setting fires to structures that are not occupied and then they will graduate for elect better word to structures that may have occupants inside of them. Some of them

It's so bad and so deranged at some point that they are purposely seeking out a structure with occupants to set fire to one of the things I start. Questioning too is like, like you said. Maybe the house is the target and not the individuals in it because We have it's a it's a duplex, a lot of these older houses. There were at one playing a single family home and then converted into like a duplex or to shared living. So again it could just be as simply as while there is no lock on the back door. So this you know, droopy dookie dung bucket, found a entrance point into this, a residency if the fire was sent inside and that's the interesting thing there to me, because if you have a ruling of arson right typically in these situations, in again

doesn't have to be a serial arsonist, but that's the statistics that are available for us to review. So that's the route that I went here and what you have with a serial arsonist, typically They are only setting fires to structures from the inside, when they are doing that to structures that they know to be unoccupied right, they're, not going into a home or into a business and setting the fire from inside now, the ones that graduate to setting fires, the structures that are occupied typically their setting, those fires to those structures on the outside and off

If it's a home, it would be to the porch area, either the front porch, her back porch, maybe a garage so something that's attached to the home, but not necessarily inside of the whole. While again, like you said that you have to look at the victims surroundings, the the people that their involved within their lives but its again shared residency. So not just one sides relatives and their connections, but the other side's relatives and connections as well, and one thing that is certainly a possibility here. They could leave the door open for not only the house was itself was targeted, but the art if the pants were somewhat targeted, whether they were known by name or or what have you is look, there is a potential that this could be a hate related crime, that this is some type of hate crime. Yes, we have a small,

population of people, but we only have about point three percent of them being african american and for brain, and this is oh, I want to be clear. This is no direct disrespect to the people of flora because you can have an outsider, come in and commit a hate crime in your tiny town and then leave brain, but it's something that we should examine you could target that house by saying. Well, I know that african american people live there, and so that is something that has been. Speculators on and unfortunately until we have somebody standing, of a judge. We won't need what the motivating factor was here for the person that set the fire. I want to use the words of the investigators what little words that they release to us that I think, might be some insight to who

We may have carried out this crime again everything that I'm seeing captain- and I think you might agree with me points to the words that they're saying make it sound like the fire started inside the home, that they believed that it was started inside the home yeah. I agree and I think what backs that up is they're. Looking at the the range and the stone they are also talking about. We, we heard the rumours or early statements at the fire may have started in the kitchen. We the mother complaining about outlets, not working in the kitchen area, and I'm with you, I feel like a zero arsonists does not feel likely here, but I did spend a decent amount of time looking into that, because for some buzz Our reason flora has a terrible record with house fires and a what I have to leave is a higher than normal fatality rate due to house fires, at least in the mud. in the years around this flora case. So I went look

into those, because, sadly, once one thing that is not true lee uncommon when you have a serial arsonist as it is, in fact a first responder fact I'll give you a quote year. Ninety four percent of zero arsonists are male. Very few are caught sixteen percent ultimately are caught, but set, maybe thirty or more fires before being caught. First responders set fires premeditated with intent to return to the fire in a professional capacity. That's beyond strange to me: it's not likely, but it's not terribly uncommon when, like you said, not a high success rate, in this town, I mean you're having a lot of house fires again. Some of that is gonna, be due to just older buildings and not buildings that are kept up. I mean when I didn't richmond Indiana. The thing that I was really shocked by here, where I come from an columbus

when you rent in your normal, renting apartment or apartment unit? When I lived in rich men, if your renting your pride more likely to be renting a house, a single family house or a single family house, they turned into living and again, not a great success rate anywhere in this country at solving these arson fires. But to give you some kind of background here on what we may be looking for as far as a speculation into a physical description profile of of unlikely offender. If it was somebody that was setting and arson fire. They didn't have any ties to the family that wasn't it the home or was not invited.

into the home, then what we're probably looking at here captain and these are just national statistics. Forty four percent of the arsons that are cleared in this country are committed by white males under absorbs forty four percent of the art, consider cleared in this country are committed by individuals that are under eighteen years of age and sixty four percent are under the age of twenty five males make up. As we said earlier, that high percentage number of offenders and seventy five percent of those arrested, are we twenty three percent are black. So if you're, going to put a number of you know, play numbers game here on the physical description of a likely offender. It again if this is an arson, not tie directly to the mother, or any one in the family, were probably

looking for a rather young guy or somebody that was twenty five or even lets you. Go twenty nine and, under at the time of this fire and in the make up of the. general area and the statistics that we see nationally. It's highly likely that it might be a white male that committed this crime where the thing gets. Tricky is again back to those words makes it sound like they believe that the point of origin to be somewhere inside the structure, which then takes a from the probability of it being a serial arsonist. That makes you go back to what doug Carter has said, that they don't believe that they've been given full access to the family or access to the dynamics in what was going on in and around that home, leading up to the fire, meaning, let's say I Didn'T- have a faulty lock

we would want to know things right like who had a key who had access to the home who frequent in the home. What would do while they were there. These are all Is it the indiana state police would like to know, especially if they believe that the fire started inside and if they believe that it was through the use of accelerants? They ve probably identified the seller. Now you said something MIKE. That is very important to remember. People keep accelerants around their homes, their report, our everyday life. This is one of those cases right where we have very little information and unfortunately it doesn't sound like they feel like they can come off of any of that information. Because later a conviction might Tita on the idea of who knows what, but also the public really kind of handcuffed here, where we can offer much help We don't know one who their suspicious of what kind of itself

We should be looking out for whom, coming and going from that area and if they're, even right. If the investigators are even correct it might be somebody that is tied to the family or get. I want to go back to the possible connection with the delphi. I just sent you a picture through text message. It was one of the. It was just a news article talking about the flora fires. It was talking about local businesses donating stuff to the family, and you see a worker that looks like he is coming down the steps and he was probably in charge of boarding up the windows at the time and this picture kind of sparked a lot

of online detectives, armchair detectives go like well look at this guy. He kind of looks like bridge guy and kind of looks like he's wearing the same jacket as bridge guy can has that dumpy pouch look in the front of the jacket like he almost has items in his front pockets or something of the jacket and look I don't. I don't know how much weight there is to this, but I really think it's just simply. It was a picture, an image, this guy caught this person's I or caught these authors eyes and then use this as a possible connection between delphi and flora fire. It feels to me, like anybody with eyeballs somebody somebody they can see, has made these comments. I feel like bridge guy. A lot of people look,

am obviously that's one problem. The indiana state police have had in that investigation, so many side by side, so many people giving tips that are simply. This guy looks somewhat like him. Don't even think that we have a great picture of delphi of the bridge guy to begin with credit. So I think that that's a lot of confusion and a lot of problems. I see two very different cases here. Meta based. Ought I just wanna? I just wanted to point out that, like yeah, when you see this picture, make us all. Well, that's happened right by delphi and doesn't it I look a little bit like bridge guy. Some. could go all what I could see some aid

went down a rabbit, hole and trying to figure out who this individual was and how are they connected not just to the floor fires, but how they're connected to delphi? But I think it's a it's just a rabbit hole well speaking of rabbit holes. One then I found myself in in regards to the serial arsonist or first reason under arsonist angle to it. This is a very weird portion of the story, and I want to make sure that I cut everyone off at the pass here rather than them contacting man saying. Did you look at this? Josh DIS linger the officer that one of the good officers that was trying to help trying to get victims out of this house who was sent to the hospital himself. Oddly enough, this is not the first time that he's responded to a house fire that has ended in fatality right from

the information I could find captain. This is the third situation and about six seventy years, where he's responding to a fire, in running inside, so I to make sure that we are clear here that we're not throwing him under the bus, because this would be to very different people. They were talking about one, this guy's running into burning buildings, trying to save people, that's a much different guy, then our suspicions of a first responders here arsonist right. I want to be very clear about that. I also want to make sure that we point out here, while the floor of fire they were discussing today has been deemed and arson The other two fires that I could find that he was one of the first responders to. In fact, I believe he was the first responder. the other fires there were deemed. I asked Was electrical one was an elite. go fire and the other. They know the cause of so we're not talking about

situation here where he's report repeatedly showing up to arson fires yeah I can, see by having a suspicion that are you start this fire and then you show up and the new save individuals, and then you become a local here, because of it, but again anyway, that would do anything like that is deranged. In my opinion, one thing I do want to point out and give kudos to a web sleuth or for you know I don't want to. I don't want to get too heated at the hole salute their community. Here I liked the web suitor community. Yes, maybe they come up with some far fetched ideas, sometimes, but the more that people are looking into these cases, the more that people. Talking about them. The more pressure we have on law enforcement actually solve these cases. I personally I find that the internet has a lot of far fetched ideas in these kay

As far as the actual webs luther's go brain, I feel like they're alive more spot on or more realistic and logical in their pursuit of justice in these cases so I want to make sure that we point out here something very different from somebody just go, and all this guy looks like that guy. Why do want to point out that true chrome growth has been it's a proven fact that true crime garage listeners are one the best web luther more knowledgeable on on crime in general and the best looking and bess smelling listeners of all true crime, podcast the in that's a fact. That is a fact that backed up by science, so

hence in edison research. This is something that's gone, unreported or I don't know, that's the correct word here not reported. How do you want to put it? But one thing that I think that's interesting here is that three weeks before the fire, a man named John Paden, filed for divorce from galen row and again, there are literally no reports in any of the media about this or her even having a husband at all right the only reason we know about this is because a savvy webs luther user found the marriage disillusion petition. So I'm not saying that there is any that this is any way connected to one another, but it is fact it is something that did happen. So we

that John file for divorce on october, thirty, first of two thousand and six team and the court website listing the parties to the petition as johns address was listed in taxes. So we don't know where he was in relation to floor Indiana. I mean very likely could have been at his home and taxes and had been there for weeks and months and months. But that is something that we did uncover when looking into this case law. in those cases very confusing. You want to know why law enforcement is saying that she's, the mother of these four children, what why she's not been as cooperative as they think they she that she should be and also could be, a situation. H, it's gone possibly through this divorce. Is she afraid to come forward and and to tell law enforcement to look into different individuals? We don't know that. Could she not trust the investigation itself

is where I think that we might stand here, and I think that would make the most sense. Because look you not come out right away, saying whether its orson or an accident she was very cooperative in the early part of this. Invest nation. Why and maybe her lawyers say, look because the law Ozma has flip far back and forth. Maybe they re flip back eventually and say you no more findings. We don't think this is arson, My report on the agenda and will that affect a later law through a civil law suit down the line part of it too, though, Galen lives in california now which so I looked at a map is nowhere near indiana, and so where the investigation beside it may have stalled and where we have indiana state police. On record, saying we don't feel the families being overly cooperative with us.

This point in our investigation. I would like to know why are we to believe that who was at fault? Because of that? Is it simply that she doesn't live in any add any more, and we have not made a great deal of effort to speak with her or, as is simply the fact that she was a mother of fort children than died in a fire and some but don't recover from that. Well, that's why she moved to California. She said you know early on that the the com lady- and she has thanked the community time and time again, heard or family have thanked the community for their handling of this tragic situation in the way that treated her and her family afterwards and try to lift them up in any that they possibly could. But you know she said I couldn't live there anymore. I I lived there with my four children I drove by that house. It's near downtown laura she's like I would pass out house in my my life would be room

Over and over again, I'm waking up to the same nightmare every day. One thing about like her job, like you said: if she's a gas station attended the amount of law. cause she's seen every day. You know if I went into that gas station. I I'd want to give her a hug out. I'd want to tell her hey. I am sorry for your loss here and that hundreds and hundreds of times a day as as heart fell as it might be, that just It's like a dagger every time and sadly, what I'm worried about here. Captain as more time passes. We know how all these cases go be it,

Listen or otherwise, it just becomes less likely that we will get justice for these four girls and that we will get some answers. This such a tragic case, take the time to go to her in ceramic, twitter or facebook will be posting. Pictures of these were beautiful girls and other photos that are related to this case. You can find those again programme garage wherever twitter, facebook and serene indiana state police still investigating this sad and tragic case. They are still looking for the person or persons responsible. They would like information leading to the arrest of those persons or the person responsible for this fire. Remember for young.

girls were killed in their flora, indiana home on november, twenty first two thousand and sixteen this was determined to be and arson fire there as a reward for information. If you have any information, please please reach out to the indiana state police. You can call them at one. Eight hundred three, eight two for six to eight Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for us and ass, whispering if you haven't sign up for our mailing list, go to true crime, garage dot com sign up on our mailing lists, we don't like to send you a bunch of junk email. We like to send ya some promo code, so you can get a discount in the store page. So make sure you do that colonel do have a recommended reading,

for the great listeners this week today. We are recommending that you go cheer yourself up and enjoy some really damn good music go! Listen to our friend lucinda Williams, specifically check out her great album, titled good souls, better angels, lucinda Williams, music is available on apple music, spotify and pretty much wherever you go to find really great music check out. Lucinda Williams and you'll find that great recommendation and great true crime book titles, documentaries and plenty more on our recommended page at true crime, garage dot, com, yeah and a big

here's to our body Travis until next week be good, be kind and don't let.

Summers here make sure you have all the summer essentials, including highlands. Natural's drops the number one best: selling erect jobs for ten years highlands. Natural's Eric drops, provides fast and effective relief of the pain and itching of iraq's from swimmers, ear, cold and flew and allergies, and it's safer your whole family for day or night relief. So you can get back to your summer fast. islands, natural's eric drops to healthy summers and beyond available at walmart walgreens target and CBS claims based on traditional homeopathic practice, not accept the medical evidence, not FDA evaluated.