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Said soon there there's some there's some interaction, and maybe I do need to go back and really listen to two zero, because there's there's the weird action when their when their court together, where add nonsense, something to J, because in pathetic, yeah. I thought that was to me. That was a little telling right when I'm sitting there in in my my arm chair sleuth action, rightly armchair right, and I'm trying to salute this thing out

already come to the conclusion base off ever with everything. I reviewed to that point that that it's one of three scenarios adnan J or add Non angie in that little inner action to me? I thought rather telling I thought it a tip. scales a little bit for me to to believe that it was Adnan. You don't look direct jays, not he certainly not trustworthy. so you always have that in the back of your mind, but In some weird way, add not doing it is jays alibi, but that that little that little exchange rate there one eye

it was a little telling a tip the scales toward Anon. For me, and then there is something which I can't recalled the moment to do with gloves that you know that they some statement given about gloves it that I've. I felt that it was the statement that J gave and they did it had stuck in it carried so much with me that that I do need to. I believe that I need to go back and review that fruit. For me, the timeline one spot. That I thought was incredibly interesting. Was this anonymous phone call that comes in shortly after haven. Liese body is discovered in lincoln park ads Her bodies discovered on february, ninth, And, of course, there's there's some pier as time that goes by before she before the body is identified, but on February twelve, the baltimore city police, homicide division receive a an anonymous phone call suggesting that the.

together, should focus on, add not now Why do I have that right in tuk? Could you guys expand on that a little bit for the list yam and give him an I'm actually trying to pull up the actual timeline to make sure that's right? but so we talked about a little bit earlier that you, oh they focused on ad nine from the beginning in this was all about railroading here and This sort of idea about this case. Now what you hear from some people and, it seems, like is actually pretty clear that they didn't really focus on and on until this phone call you're talking about, and there was this and I gotta tell you. It is one of those. It is one of those new gotta be careful with rather holes in this case, if you let yourself get cited.

down in the rat, holes you'll be lost forever, and this is one of those that I would love to know who called right. It's, Great wealth is one that outcomes in the same day by the way that baltimore has fifteen police officers, who spent the entire day canvassing, but more looking for that car, no they're looking for them. car, trying to find what they think gonna be a vehicle is gonna have what evidence in it. So Sancho comes into them on February, twelve, that's a few days after haze body has been found and yeah. It's an anonymous collar, the officer describes them is. asian mail in his notes when they testify about neutrality actually says, eat him. He met indian which, interesting, because I think when you most people here, asian there thinking more sort, anthony chinese, something on those lines, indian closer to pay standing, which is at nights racial background

and it makes you wonder, is someone who knows Anna has some from the mosque- is it someone that he might have been friends with a lot of people have been lotta time trying to figure out exactly who that is one thing They absolutely knew was this yasser sir I'll they say you need it out to him, because he's gonna be able to tell you in the place. Actually, I think they meet him it up in a pizza, hot or something to talk through And the answers like yeah, you know it was we talk, bout that he said if he ever know killed a girlfriend, the driver car into a lake or something like that which is such a strange the whole. The whole interaction is strange that the fact that the anonymous call the vaccine, was colored then calls back, so he calls says- that you had not nodded hey. It had saxon weaken park in the past, which I cannot doubt goes weaken park. The current debates that you do, but maybe there I don't want her to speak for what goes on we can bark and he says

thing about driving the car into the like, and then he calls back and says you should talk to yasser Ali and when they talk Also rios is like Canada had a conversation about that, but not exactly. so whoever it was kind of new I have to be dangerous, but maybe it know a lot in life That is a rather hoeing go down, but I dont think you got a funny answers to but new and to send police in the right direction of talking to somebody that that does say. Yes, we had some kind of bizarre, our at one point in our friendship in his hands. I guess it's probably well before the fact is that she's eventually killed, but that he says something to the effect. If I were killed, someone or if I ever killed a girlfriend, I would dispose of her of the vehicle in this man and what s interesting about it, as it really is. That is lets him off an anarchic. So that happens. You know they get this week, phone call, good ideas on the twelve and fifteen there talking to disguise the pizza hurt

right. The next day they pull and non cell phone records and its when they pay cell phone records and they start looking phone calls and they see it that comes up over and over again in his gin pizza, and then they go talk to jan engine says nothing on earth and I like they leave and in their notes. If you read the note there like spoke again Jim, she doesn't have anything to say, in the next day. Gin shows out with her lawyer and her mother and tells us story that is going to become the store that we hear over and over and over again. I've never had a conversation with a friend about killing a girlfriend. I have had several conversations about killing a co host Now the bizarre is you know, you're being recorded, really bizarre part of that to the lake the make sure leave believe that conversation took place. One yeah. We have yasser saying that, yes, that conversation happened, but let's that that aside

presenting its the added detail of not just like Oh we're having this bizarre conversation of killing somebody. What if but by the way. This is how I would dispose of their vehicle. You know that's an added detail that that makes it just ring. True. and of if, of course, you cut investigate disguise suit. Is you ve learned this detail, I mean, would be incredible mistake not to It is very possible that he now he was just do talk in a big game, is very possible. What I think is really important is that they didn't know the police didn't know Adnan cell phone number or to pull his cell phone records before this interaction, and so we're talking about what mid february. At this point, its cuts against the narrative that the police you knew.

Was missing and immediately zeroed in on add not as the main suspect by all accounts. They weren't looking at him really with any seriousness up until this point, otherwise they would have probably found some way to subpoena his records. Much earlier Well, there's a lot of indicators to to suggest that there were not a whole lot of investigating going on until our bodies found by the euro it is a concern there, where the she is air quotes missing. She may have gone to California or whatever, but there does not appear from I'm sitting to just a lot of evidence suggests that there was any kind of hard core. station going on to find her. and then, as you guys said earlier, it's the it's it's the disk. every of her body of her, remains that now one hundred and eighty degrees flips this investigation.

And now the importance of finding her visa conniving baltimore tree this like they treat a lot of stuff. They know they ve got too many murders to investigate and way too many, probably actual. Action to investigate to worry about some eighty, I a girl who decided to go off. You know to california or something I think they They really do not want to be. In we talk about the so much when police do this. When that when they, the initial call comes in and they don't take it seriously, in two weeks later of three weeks later for his letter, you have a murder on your hands, It is really easy to be very critical of the police and say one well. Are you guys doing wanting you look into this in very beginning, but it seems like that's the way the baltimore police gonna approached it and I think you're right till she They found her body there, It's when it really starts to ramp up, and you see that and you see that, with all the searches for the car sending out the police, the bolos requesting a helicopter. You know all these efforts find that car, because I think they realized, if we find

the car we might be able to figure this out. The car is gonna, be the key and win eventual. They would find it when J led them to it. Well in their their hoping to find clear evidence of who put that car there. They they don't believe that their victim was abducted there. They don't believe that their victim was abducted elsewhere. You know that they believe that that car is is disposed of after the body disposal. and they're hoping that what they can find in that vehicle will lead them to the killer, to the same person that put the body in the park and. when, when they don't get that it and then there is also the complication of

gonna find evidence inside of that vehicle. That will suggest that add ons I had was in their vehicle, but of course we would have expected to fight. We should expect to find evidence that he's been in that vehicle at some point, because it's because he was in on days when she wasn't killed so yeah there, zactly didn't, but but what I see two one thing that that I we saw in one thing I try to point out, and I dont know that it's always taken the way that supposed to or even digested properly is that there is a there is a strong psychology in trying to conceal.

A body- and this is an investigation that really highlights that that psychology of of typically the more effort that has taken to conceal a body usually means the closer, the pope, the closer connection between victor victim in purpose. And here in in the reason. Why is because, until there is a body found in most cases, there is not that level of investigation and hear this clearly points. All of that out that someone took the efforts to to partially, bury or or conceal this body to the best of their abuse early on that day at that night, and it took four weeks to find her. and then what happens immediately once she's found the now

We have an actual investigation. Now we have a hard core investigation so that the closer the purpose is to the victim, more vested invested. They are in the idea of if they never find this person. I probably don't have anything to worry about yeah, that's exactly right. We see that. Unfortunately, if the victim has our relationship with the perpetrator there, is some attempt to cover the body, because you know if this is a random attack, some random passer by what say her car broke down

and you know some ne'er do well happens upon her and they decide to kill her. Why not? Why stick around and risk getting caught with a dead body? It's going to take time to drag her body into the woods, even though it's not very far into the woods to stay, you know, stay there dig a hole to put her body in they're, probably leaving evidence of you behind, and if, if you didn't know this person, because a random attacker is really difficult to find, but if you're going to take the risk of covering someone up, it's likely that you know there could be ties to you. Actually, if you're an ex boyfriend or have any sort of relationship with her, there are going to be people who are populated on the suspect less by mere, by mere relation to her right, usually famine Member to anyone and close to the purpose, the too close to the victim will be

an initial suspect was who has to be cleared by the police and so make sense. Psychology wise to cover up that body and also there's this strange psychology, even if you are the person who is the perpetrator, that it's difficult to look as someone, you know that you ve had a relationship with miss in this instance a very close relationship, a love relationship in fact of seeing that person, even if you have very you, no hatred feelings toward them to leave them exposed and open the elements when they are dead, and so that's a that's a great point to raise here that if it were a random attacker it it is it's it is. It would not fit the typical stereotype of the attacker, taking their chances and just running as opposed to sticking around and maybe getting caught with the body or with more evidence. What was some of the evidence was found at the body. Recovery

you know we basically skip over because her so little that there's either so little or so much depending on how you look at it. This that I found you know they ve on things like lagging bullet casings. They found, which you know sometimes four times. I've been talking to you, an officer about a shooting, and they last year. The first thing we have to do is sought out the bullet kay, from this shooting from the we're casings that were left over from the last shooting and figure out which ones go this land in which go with some other shooting that within investigate Things like that there were things like discarded. Whisky bottles a mean, when advantage to taking someone to a place, I weaken part is the the potential evidence of of was. Is it necessarily gonna stand out from the evidence this just there, because it's the kind of place at all kinds of people hang out the various things

Thank you see that when you go through all the evidence list, not a lot of india being all that significant Yes, I remember that she was. She was there for about a month. So when you look when you re jays statement, he talks about instance adnan throwing up that he's he's throwing up when you know around or the barrow the body we had. Some people ass well today, you that they find that they test. That is like month later another there's. It's not. gonna, be laughed so the thing about the case that I think trips alot of people up, there's not a lot of physical evidence. As you point down the finger prints their interesting there's, a manner finger, prints, fingerprints in this case, but it's easy to say: animal karla I'll. Give you a couple examples. There is a map of the mat book according to people who knew hey state.

Her driver sad pocket, that's not where the police found it they found in the back seat. They found it open. It had an ounce prince on it, and there was a page torn out of it, which was a page included. The map of weaken park sitting on their member was rose wrapped in floral paper on that floral paper were adenoids fingerprints, so those are some fingerprints are interesting, but in and they were it striking to me and they really stood out to me. It painted picture for me of what I think happened on that day. But it's also not unusual to his fingers would be in a car since he had been in the car many times before, while I'm trying behave myself as as much as I can hear in the garage today. Nix should gimme actual cookie for that, but. ok, so there's all this evidence that you say points to add nuns guilt. Then why would the prosecution, the prosecution, the state, not the defence team, the prosecutor,

Why would they release This killer corner unquote. With their release this killer and give him back his freedom well it's it's a tangled web, it it's I say we go all the way back to the original trial. According to add nine, he wanted to plead guilty in the first trial And his attorney according to him, went to the prosecution and the process. was an interest and giving him a deal? restaurants and mistrial animal simply guilty again, once again the prosecutions, not an arrest and give him a deal and goes to trial he's convict. All of his sword of appeals are exhausted, see comes along. Brings a ton of attention gave me makes It- maybe the most famous drew ground case in the world, You start in a lot of new money. Comes in. A lot of lawyers are looking at new things, a couple things it come up whether or not Christiana Gutierrez who was his attorney was ineffective for

Following up on Asia Mcclain, who we haven't even talked about, but asia Mcclain Couple letters that said, I saw add nonce I had at the library around the time that the prosecution had said. Hey It had been murdered. So. The argument was, if he's at the can counter. The prosecutions theory must be wrong, therefore, his innocence Is there a problem with that? Even prosecutions. Theory is wrong. left the library shortly thereafter, so he still could have done. It just means not. When the prosecution initially said, somebody might need a good argument. There is often arguing about the cell phone data, so, as we've talked about. their outgoing calls, an incoming calls a greasy outgoing cause or are good for location, there's a huge debate over incoming calls good years, brought that up a trial, and so there is an argument that she was ineffective for that she should have brought that up and those two issues. There's theirs much later, something I'll posed, conviction, review which can happen

If there's new evidence, it comes to light things that you didn't know about before. Initially the judge. You heard the case. Says yeah, you know, I think she was ineffective. She should shit out asia. She should question the cellphone data more neutral. He gets appealed and surely that ruling gets overturned? No neutral goes away, so it there. point Marilyn passes a couple laws. One of them says that if someone is under eighteen at the time, they commit murder and they get Why sentence that sentence can be read reconsidered. This is This follows along with a lot of supreme court president. It's really questioning whether not people under the age of eighteen she get life without parole or the death penalty is the same sort of thing marylin passes a law and they create like a unit to look at that. At the same time, more police, unlike their drug testing unit, gets and want to transforming them. Forgive me if I'm wrong he hits in a lot of trouble in it They were doing really poor job there, drug testing so

and passes a law that says hey if it's patently clear that somebody you know was innocent or there is a major corruption. Their case, you can vacate their conviction. so they start. Looking at add nones case is an example of this under eighteen thing, like you re, are. We gonna give him sort of an opportunity to be led out of prison cause. He was under eighteen At the time a woman, a marrow most be, is the state attorney for baltimore. She is also at the time under indictment for some used, obviously innocent until proven guilty accused of some sort of fraud involving covert relief funds. I don't even really understand it all She loses a real action and is getting ready to go to trial roma same time. The person who looking at the case for whether or not he should be released because he's under eighteen starts advocating for Vacate the conviction altogether, it, sir point they decide to do that they put together.

A motion to vacate it and in the whole thing is haywire: they do they they father they call haze, pham and basically tell them. I look, we know. For twenty years we ve been telling you it was announced I had, but now and to change your mind and say he's not guilty? His case will be vacated on Monday. Essentially, they ask for a week. they say: hey can you give us a week, so we can get out there and appear in person and speak to the court about this and about her sister and art water right, they say no good at all. I just wanna say me: don't they have to say here's the evidence against him, but this is why we, the after splain away that evidence. They have to explain to the to the vote Firms and explain to the public Why were releasing this? Quorum quote killer and the victim has a right to speak.

Victim has a right to appear in court and speak on behalf of their their relative and victims rights act and unless they have em in the very important. but they basically say no we're not gonna. Let you do that. Her brother lives in california. Instead they sent him a zone link thirty minutes before the thing starts. He reads are prepared, payment which, if you haven't heard it is just heartbreaking, has prepared saving is heartbreaking. He reads it. They thank him. There, yes, absolutely heart heartbreaking and it's very confusing because they also don't explain anything to the victims or to the public, correct, there's no evidentiary hearing, there's no opera at present testimony theirs, opportunity for the people who are accused of misconduct, including the prosecutor, in the case of the detectives to address that they use some notes, the prosecutor wrote which they interpret to mean one thing which he has since said. They don't mean that There are so many irregularities in this that you just

see happen even in cases that ended, exoneration? Think back to the Michael petersen case, so the marco petersen case he gives can did. Dwayne diverse, turns out is just come lately, incompetent. Will they just released Michael Petersen, the hand but ensure hearing. Where are they testimony. They. Your prayers their arguments and judge said based only argued the testimony of vacant and conviction. ways in which petersen and then later on, they entered into a plea. this case. None of that happened. Your hundred sent right in they just Really I mean in a whirlwind they vacate conviction. Marilyn mosby goes out and declares that adnan Syed is innocent couple of weeks later, get back. The dna results from hey shoes that are inconclusive. Them is the best thing you contravened there's an unknown. Dna

honor. She use it on add ons and for some reason that means it wasn't him, so they dropped the charges while at that point the brother young lee challenges. This goes up to airline court of appeals merely Cuervo bills reverses all of that and says the whole thing is was improper. He didn't give. He has an absolute right to a period in giving their right to appear. We're versing the dismissal of the indictment, versing the vacation in the conviction, but we're staying for sixty days. If you want to appeal to the supreme court, they ask the court of appeals to reconsider. They deny it. They were killed it. The maryland, in court where the court case currently stands? Is american supreme court has continued that stay of the act, of the of the court of appeals while it gets the briefing and the arguments and at some point, the marine corps of appeals. will decide whether or not to agree with what are you the maryland supreme court,

what a sad were there not to agree with what the court of appeal said order them, if they reverse them animal, free and will be free if they uphold what they did, then we'll be back. It we'll be back where he's a convicted murderers, and now the desire to do going forth from that and how to people out there if you're interested in this case read the mail court of appeals, opinion and, in particular, read the footnotes because the foot, It's just destroy the motion of egg. There All opinion is all about victims, rights and how that was violated. But then it knows that's where the action is so read. The and you'll, see that all the problems, some of which he wrote you ve laid out with why this was was in progress.

also, I think, really irresponsible, because the farm heymann liese brother, I believe that Once I had killed, my sister strangled her and they did not give me. The evidence to to understand why they're letting a murderer out. Get security for that. Guy I'm coming after him. I just think it. Very irresponsible, not just believe that this guy killed your sister, but you being told by the state for twenty years that this guy killed your survive. and offered no, no other explanation as to up well where we ve, we

changed our minds now Alice, Maybe you can help me out with this here. What is about

maybe violation and was there one in this case sure so, a Brady violation comes from the supreme court and stating in the case Marilyn vs Brady, that if the prosecution the prosecution has to turn over has has very stringent discovery and obligations as it should, because it's the investigative body and the the evidence is in its hands. It has to turn over all evidence, but not just evidence that the person they've arrested is guilty of the crime. They also have to turn over any evidence that could potentially be used and by the defense to argue their side of the story. So in other words, the prosecution doesn't get to pick and choose what type of evidence gets turned over to the defense. They have to turn over everything, including evidence that could be helpful to the defense am and it you know. That is a very, very serious obligation and in fact, most

and most prosecutors will go above and beyond their discovery obligations just so that they don't even come close to any sort of a Brady violation. They at you know it's not quite open files, but they will go above and beyond their discovery obligations, because what you want to happen in the court of law, you want justice to be done. You want the proper cross examination to be done, because you want ultimately the truth to come out in the day. You know a lot of people can say that the prosecution all they want to do is to get another w on the board. Just when whoever they've arrested they want to make sure that they get them convicted. I mean having having practised in this field. That is the worst, but I would say, most prosecutors. Worst nightmare

is to be on the side of having an att, be in violation of any sort of discovery obligation, but even worse, putting someone who is innocent of the crime in prison at his truly I mean wakes me up at night and makes makes me make sure, that I go above and beyond all of my obligations to make sure that I am not a player in that sort of situation. And so with respect to whether a Brady violation has happened. In this case, no, no abrading violation has not happened in this case because remember just because evidence is turned over to the other side. There are ultimately strategy calls for any sort of attorney defence or prostitution as to what your story is going to be out there. We ve already talked about the problems with witnesses

You may have an credibility issues or even stories that may not be backed up by the evidence, and so when evidence is turned over to the defense, the defense doesn't just wholesale throw everything at the board. They have to take into account what story's going to be believable in general believable to a jury and also what can feed into their their narrative of what's going to happen, and so, if a defense attorney gets information about a case and they ultimately choose as part of their strategy not to present it as part of the defense that

in itself is not necessarily ineffective. Assistance of counsel that in and of itself, is not necessarily be defense, attorney falling down on the job and shifting to information that could or could not be Brady violation. Just because an piece of evidence could look good for the defense, doesn't necessarily mean it rises to the level of a Brady up of being brady material. You know that the courts have said often

times, it has to be materially and the air has to materially affect the case, because there is always going to be this incredible amount of information that you can argue should have been in or not. But a lot of that information, as we've talked about in ad case, is going to be ancillary to the actual charges brought here. You know an investigative file is you have to draw a boundary somewhere? Otherwise you know that the amount of information that could come up that could come in is not helpful. Is duplicative and could also just merely be confusing and if they have nothing to do with the case here here, nothing when you think about is not every discovery. Evaluation is a bright evaluation and I think I swear confuses people. think. There's this notion that the prosecution has to give the defence everything. Well, that's not true, don't I shall have to give the defence everything but If you didn't give them something you should have. That is in its broad evaluation, you also have the proof

that had you given into them, it would have had an effect and usually big one on the cap and a lot of times of the evidence is overwhelming anyway, one even matter people miss all those little new answers and in to me it is wild that the prosecution- or this in this case, included as grave violations is as a reason to vacate this conviction and the the attorney general of maryland even came out said none. None of this is a Brady violation and it wasn't and honestly, in this case- but we talked about this and we have another bike- ascot legal base. We talked about this this should have been argued court of law there should have been argument about this with two sides debating it and putting on evidence and in putting people understand Making them answer for the things they done and that should have been done not only for hay and not on four adnan, but because the justice system is about the public too it's about ensuring that the public has faith, that whatever you're doing is the right thing and they

this essentially in the dead of night behind doors without any presentation of evidence in it. It bother then, and when we look the case, and we realise how strong the case was. It bothered us even more, but this not. This is not a case where he might be guilty, but it, social rights are violated so egregiously. He should be out that did not happen in this case. one thing: I learn as that. There's of the two trials the first round second trial on that at both trials that add on one or two points, guilty to me. That seems like some. A wanting to either does make a deal save themselves or possibly wanting to confess or because some people do feel guilty and if he did lover and he did killer he, he might feel bad about that and want to show remorse for it. Do you think you have a thought process on on if he is guilty on why he never has confessed to the crimes. Well, at this point, I I don't think I can

I mean you said: I live in an ounce head, but at this point here I mean just imagine imagine you were in his circumstances where the entire world is divided over with you're innocent or guilty. You have people invested everything, improving your innocence and and I don't think this is the only case you see this in no. We talk about withdrawn by the german me dollar case way back when how you guys. I don't care what you said about the case, but I feel like you're on the same page as we are now Jeff from me down. Yeah down here hildy devereux mcdonald know he killed a family, he so obviously guilty, and yet to this day he wanted minute and you have people who will make that argument if just admitted it he could get pearl, but he won't admit that must mean is innocent and in Why does it I'm not his mind? I'm not a psychologist, but I think that ignore some pretty strong psychology, when you think that's true, I think

was much easier for ad nine, when he's no eight even and being charge of murder and the trials about to happen to plead guilty at that point, me no know or whatever, since he would get a move on with his life now his entire being is wrapped up in being wrongfully convicted well that's what he wanted. That's what would have wanted twenty years ago right for a room divided which he he didn't get and the I mean that's what a defense attorney wants to get to a room divided because then then they're not going I your guy and now he has a room divided and yet the broad of psychology, so I'm gonna circle back around to that too. I think they're, so Weird psychology about the whole cereal presentation as well, and I dont think its tension or on their behalf. I think it's just human nature, so you know

their journalists there telling a story but right out the gate just like they would, in a sit down meeting with with their editor with their boss right out, the gay in syria their site? You know why doing this story. Why are we covering the story? Well, we're covering it because- there's someone who tells us that their loved one has been wrongfully convicted didn't get a fair trial and he been imprisoned all these years for murder that you didn't commit. That's why you're doing the store and so I think it's huge nature when you're tuning in right out the gate that need has been planted in your brain and you, as you continue to listen and, as you can, you to invest your time, in listening to this story.

that seed is already been planted. The well they're doing the story because he's innocent wrongfully convicted and I am now continuing to listen in giving that more weight and credibility on some weird college human nature. Level, because that point that seed has been planted a long time ago, but nothing grew group dynamics happen all the they happening in courtrooms too. They have the jury, you have twelve people, begin to a jury room, never served on Julia. I wish I could You can imagine if you take that first vote in eleven p, say guilty in you, don't one thing innocent you may, you spend the whole time china proverbial is wrong, or maybe you start reconsider. You know why these people He spent some time wailing out to know and all seem like normal rational people think the person's guilty there's nothing wrong with. That is actually one of the ways most works was to make you question your own sort of preconceived notions, but I think when it comes to pike ass, nothing, its impact,

would remember this. We try to remember it is hard to do there is. There is always going to be a strong group dynamic of we all want to be in this together. Now we all want to be cheering for the right side, and I think he saw that cereal is very effective, made you want to cheer for adnan and maybe by the EU. you weren't cheering for him anymore and you regarding your own way, but very much. There were many people who listened cereal. Like I have network that people it was either you ve straw, we felt like he was guilty or you strongly felt like he was innocent and cyril very effectively. Did that really hard to get out of that kind of group mentality, and in that psychology things absolutely there well for me, I know a lot of people were really

infatuated with this case and in really have stuck with it and followed it since the first time they listen to cereal, I did not. I very much enjoyed the podcast, but I kind of moved on this there's other cases that piqued by interests And oh, by the way, were kind of doing it. about a new case every week too, so I and other things that the focus is on, but you're you're guises, podcast for me brad to light some things and brought up some new things for me that I was unaware of that. That are central to this case. In One was the anonymous phone call. That was something I don't recall ever having any knowledge of the other thing, and I can't I can't let you go until we talk about this a little bit in in bring every. up the speed as as much as you know. Why? Because it sounds like this a bit of a shadowy figure here, but who

the law amid a balloon, Bela ahmed. I think I'm trying to say that at best they can help us take this. that's a good question. You know I didn't know. This is where you are going neck of all. The things in this case that you could ever about I'm not gonna, say I knew what you were going to ask your support. all is this interesting, like you said, shadowy figure. That kind of is part of this case, but not much is really discussed about him and not really that much is known. Him. Basically, we know that we know more about him now than we did at the time that all this this happening happening with in these investigation, but belong, is someone that was like an older figure within the mosque who knew at nine a m. An interesting we enough. We know that add nods parents, add didn't have a cell phone for him. Well, was not allowed to, or what have you he didn't have. A cell phone that was paid for by his parents

but we know that bull basically opened up a cell phone, a cow under his own name for ad, not and a cell phone we've been talking about here, the one that he left with Jay and all the cell phone pings were talking about that cell phone bill is actually open under the law's name, and apparently he had opened this phone account up for adnan the day before brett. I think the day before the day before that and hey goes missing, and so of course, he's going to be an interesting figure here, because the cell phone is you activated essentially right before hey is hey, disappears and his murdered, and also who is he? Why is he getting a cell phone? add non. Who is a teenager at this time? I belong older man and then in a fast forward. Many years belong has since Ben I'm in trouble with a law himself with the kind of sexual improprieties with em, with her.

but with minors as what, as minor minor boys, he was when he was a dentist, so he was taking advantage of of boys, basically he would give the mattress oxide and then sexual abuse them sally. Obviously, I eat he hasn't kept his nose queen and those are some serious allegations that have been brought against him, and but you don't see him discuss that much. We talk about him a bit but he's an interesting figure just because of an his relationship with Adnan, in that he provided the self That is central to a lot of the evidence that we ve been disappointed with him. As he's like a black hole, if you, if you get near him, he will you it's not a rabbit whole, it's a black hole when you get sucked into it and you can get out because he's obviously He is such a shady individual. He is a criminal. He is Sexual, a predator of young boys,.

Yeah he's also friends with Adnan he's opening up the cell phone for him. There are a lot of people who go, a lot of different ways with him, but the problem is you: can you can speak, he lay well. Maybe he did it. Maybe you mean we mention this. One upsets You know, maybe he abused adnan and hey found out about it, and so he had to kill her to silence her. Ok, I mean that's a great screenplay, but there's literally no evidence of that whatsoever. Now we have his diary and she wasn't shy about rotting in it. Don't say anything like that. You know you ve got maybe ballade for other reasons. Maybe he was doing it fervour and nine, and so you know, once again. Other belarus for being a bad guy no real evidence of it and we he we talked about him. But we try to just talk about him in general, because we didn't want to get sucked into that to that,

to that black hole me in this case is one of those cases. New gas seem to me I'll. Do an amazing javelin, hey, do it on a hierarchy or series. So short, as you know, we thought of others and for fourteen up Second, it and more, but you are doing an entire show. On the add ons case, you probably could talk a lot about the law we tried to avoid, which I think was smart because, like you said it it's a black hole. It's not! I don't you think it's I brought him up. Because I wanted to point out that once again, the that you are bringing something new to the table for for some of the people with their understanding of this case, and so I am really only brought him up for that reason. But, like you said, he's a black hole because the then then the problem if you, if you want to go and make the giant leap the the annan didn't do this or that jaded do it or the two didn't do it together for it to be anybody else,

then you have to also believe that J for whatever weird in see. Reason would lie to police, saying he helped bury a body when he didn't n n in face severe criminal charges off of that statement it. When you talk about rhyme or reason We don't have either with with that idea that that somebody else could have done it and then, oh by the way, the sky also admitted to bearing a body that he had nothing. Do that such an important point, and it goes back to what she said about their three real possibilities here. You can, never forget the giant conspiracy theory that you have to buy into hang over here where the baltimore police are somehow a bunch of bumbling idiots. Frankly, you know because we all know the baltimore police do a lot of really stupid thing. But also have managed to build. This amazing can speak.

see that involve J jeanne for no reason changing the not covering for themselves. Their disk framing at nine, because they were to do so, and that's why whenever you mean oh below you man, I don't know. Blossoms gooder allows us there's a guy. You know he's hee hee The done some like this are, you know, dawns the current boyfriend. Maybe it was him, but that that hangs they're just over you the whole time and for me, The reason that you know we talk, the difference between reasonable doubt in any doubt that something is important in the court system and when I look at this case it it It's just. I feel it so much because there ams where I'm sitting random like well. You know I mean, I guess something could have happened. Maybe something happened so that Adnan didn't. Do this it's hard for me to figure out what it is, but maybe maybe you know, and then I'm like but know that actually is completely unreasonable because of all the things that would have to be true. For that it too, to be a fact, and

you're hunter wasn't right. You just keep coming back to that. He can't can just it can't be the case that J is not involved in this at all, you just can't be the case and for it to be in those other people. That's what you'd have to believe what I think people- but so much weight on whether J wilds is line or not, and we know he's a liar, but does that mean his line about everything, but. The ranch in this becomes Jen is she doesn't seem like she's a liar and somehow she knows the story before J even tells us to the cops before a deal made, she does and people forget about her forget about her lot or they ignore, and I think, there's a and for that, if you go back and you will read her statement that she gave before before, Jay gets picked up is to me one of the believable statements that you can read. It just reads like it's true in

The point out. We have it it's all here say she see things you just heard from J, that's true, but that means J hold her. The story first before the police got to him before the police could have fed him. for any information, she's walking into a police station with her lawyer and her mother sitting down in telling the basic story. In fact- telling them some details. That J doesn't even offer in his first statement, like the fact that to happen at the best buy J told gin that jane his first. Why doesn't tell the police that which I have always always interesting. You know if the police were feeding the story to them, Why isn't that consistent? That's a pretty important detail, but it's not and yeah you just gin. Gene is Just a glaring red flag: if you want to try and get around J this kid, it pretty emotional, for me. I was in at the same time as these characters and this yeah it's almost ago, tragic opera

I feel like we always forget about Heymann Lee and how special of individual. She was in the house the real victim and this and she's always gonna, be the real victim in this tragic play, Maybe the prosecution will come out and tell us why they let him free and how that makes sense, and all of this what evidence they found and what's up Banks, and maybe they can actually make rest and some justice to humanly, but what do you guys think is next and this saga, so I think that, as we often talk about on a show, the farther you give him a trial court, the the facts of the case matter, nor moving up the appeals court

the more and more. The court is concerned about the precedent that setting- and I think. And this is my opinion- I think the vacant- of add ons. Conviction was a fraud on the court. I think it is an absolute injustice. it was done improperly whether he is innocent or not, and I think it was election of everything we hold dear in the justice system and it should be to overturn. Even if they go back to court, right this time and they do it in the open- and the evidence presented and they reach the exact same conclusion. I think that's what should happen. The court of appeals, what's weird about this case is because the state did what it did there. the person to attack the conviction is kind of missing or the vicar, It is kind of missing or merely be the state they found appeal everything will be very normal in an ordinary course, but in this case you have victim the victims, other who has to stand in for hay and has to speak for her. when he wrote a story. It young lady who, to this

day has not stopped fighting for his sister spot amidst pressure to do so. He steps in in challenges this on the basis of victims rights, and unfortunately, in this country and an you know, it's this wafer allow really good important reasons. People were used to crimes, have all kinds of rights, people who are victims. crimes often don't and stay I have tried to remedy that by passing laws, but allowed times. I don't have teeth, and young lee using where those laws is challenged this the court of appeals looked at this case and, like I said, if you read those footnote, you see it. They saw a massive injustice and they india, everything that had been done up to this point supreme court of maryland. When I think about this, though they have to consider all the other cases you they happen There are things like standing, which nobody wants to get intake. It's a sobering have to consider how broad victims rights statute should be and I kind of wonder if they want

answer. The case is not quite right, but basically say the standing doctrine in the victim's right doctrine is not brought enough to do. This overturn this vacation. This. This is where you can do it and act I feel like that's the way they're gonna go cause? I think they're gonna be thinking about the law sort of writ large, not an individual case, so they the day. I think it's likely that his conviction, which has been reinstated, but that reinstatement has been put on hold that the court of appeals, opinion ends, up not going into effect and he'll, be a free man. The ads then it's all sad said we tend to forget about human lee, and An avowed non is truly and- then you're you're out now, and you power to brain pressure on the prosecution to find the real killer. if you are not the killer and we see this and other cases where people so once I get out free, I'm gonna work to get justice for the victims,

They seem to never do that. It's a very depressing. All of this I have just said, pressed about what bred said. I don't know if I can add more to the hat. I think what's important that bread said right, there is we they should have gone about the proper way and it absolutely was not on the proper way. Even if that they went back to the district court and move for vacation through inevitable hearing- and it came at the exact same way, I would be ok with that, because the proper procedures were followed and we care about procedures, because there this is not the only criminal case. right. This is if this is a wrongful commission. This, hopefully you know there are not many raffle convictions, but we want to make avenues for the overturning of wrongful conditions and procedure matters, because that is the route in which we can seek justice in the core systems. No matter your facts and no matter who you are and what has happened in advance case, I think threatened

because it makes it it makes the judiciary system a laughable, completely laughable to others who are looking at the judiciary, especially if they are on the inside and dont know how the judiciary system works. I am afraid that brats premonition of what's going to happen at the maryland supreme court will come to fruition, but I hope it is not true. So in a we will, we will keep our eyes open for what happens next, but we have so what we do know that what happened in the past? and since inserted in terms as it paves vacation at the district court did not follow the proper procedures. I want on party yours for having an intelligent conversation about this case. We might not agree on every little detail, but important, that we hear all sides and its importance for. heymann Lee again, the true victim and all this

and so what one of the things I I really loved about your guises coverage. As you said, hey, don't take our word for all this there's other sources that you should check out. Canoe does tell the audience some of those sources that you believe they they should go check out if their interests, and diving more into the case of heavenly? I I just want to say you know I listen to serial again and nick you're one hundred percent right when you listen to it. It takes you back to the: listen tom and here that that music, with the syrian aims, are you now Does Europe back and twenty thirty twenty only fourteen when it exactly that wasn't it came out, I think, listen a serial look alike this change and Cyril. A lot has come out and cereal cereal, it was, it was good I mean it was really good, and it was really entertaining in some ways. A lot of you out there who who listen to true crime a lot. Now you listen to serial. You also see a lot of the flaws and you'll see the little tricks and the

see the places where things are short of oxy skated to keep the mr going, but I do think you should listen cereal and then The big programme but I think you have done the most for laying out the case. Her announced innocence. The one that's indispensable as undisclosed and skies which Israel you're splitting robbie chowdhury. There that is sort of thee. I think the gold standard, or if you want do you hear the arguments for her and on sad is innocent to listen the other one, barbara, we always and a good show truth and justice, very for season was called cyril dynasty and in it was happening basically parallel with it's closer easier lot, a sort of a lot of talking about undisclosed, alive he's talking to other people. Undisclosed was interesting to hear sort of both their perspectives on the episodes as they come out, there's a greater send two, but only if you are wrong fascinate about this, and you spend a more time with this case. The case file is built,

but it's not as biggest some and it's out there and you can read it, put a lot of it on our website. There a lot of websites it have the information on their redraw transcript read the interview transcripts with gin and and with J meal read through. If yourself, you guys, You're, all you know your uncle about be jerk, you're smart. I have to decide whether or not somebody is guilty or innocent based on the evidence. The evidence is there, Google look at it for yourself, don't let anybody tell you what I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage colonel. Do we recommended reading for the beautiful listeners out and I know that we have recommended this one before, but it's a great reed and

story share some unfortunate similarities with the heymann Lee k. So this week recommending little crazy children by longtime friend of the show james renner in it's true crimes story, a young high school couple, The girl in this case is lisa pruitt she's, just sixteen when she is stabbed to death in the affluent neighborhood of shaker heights. Police had snuck out to go over to her boyfriend's house. She is full outside by police. After calls a learning the police to screams heard in the neighborhood now did her boyfriend kill her where did someone intercept her late that night you'll want to check? out little crazy children, a true crime tragedy. james runner? You can find that great title and many more recommendations on our recommended page, true crime garage doc up until we'd be good became.

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