Bedtime is rough even for peanut. That's why people will try anything to fall. Asleep had stands before bed even blowing bubbles, but actually has a trick that works every time. A new timber, peter mattress, it adapts to your bodies, needs help me fall asleep, faster and stay asleep. A longer you'll, wake up feeling refreshed every day, even being at agrees so did the wacky bedtime rituals had to actually to take home a temper peter day bored of binging on box boxsets, try something new trial the casino over a million players, love playing our fine casino style games every single day, you'll find hundreds of games to choose from, and some amazing prizes to join the jumble fun had over two chamber: casino dot com where you can always play for free, that's chump see age, you, MBA, casino, dot. Com play for free play for fun play now

no purchase necessary void where prohibited by law. Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply, see website for details I the. welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is a man who may or may not be the father of the royal baby he is

the cap. Will you already have dual citizenship? So why you explain that one to me, to be seen and good to see you things for listening, thanks for town, a friend tonight tonight, everything's gonna be all right captain because we are sitting on a dark subject matter by our good friends at monday brewing garage, great four and a half bottle, caps out of five. This is a silky smooth american imperial stout with a high ebby of twelve percent, so I would recommend staying at home impairing this with your favorite cigar and your favorite. True crime garage episode and we are herod up with this great beer by some of our good friends right here. First up a big cheers and thanks to jacqueline turner, an errand w.

Two christian and mike and billy. Next up, we say hello to tracy and her cat fat boy and mountain home arkansas what she is too fat boy and a big. We, like you, do kelly in westminster colorado. Next up, we have vanessa from enver grove heights minnesota and we also have tosh o who says she bought the album, the captain made of the show muse so cheers to you and cheers everybody that chipped in with this week's beer fun yeah fine, that album on tunes, and we have some other episodes in some other music in some other nonsense to check that out on itunes, and that is enough of the business everybody gather I'll grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime

long view. Washington may fifteen nineteen, eighty four the school bell rings, the end of the school day. Eight year old, Rima tracks leaves on foot returning home from saint Helena elementary school, on the way she decides to stop at a friends house

she wanted to show off in our project she made at school after a brief visit She continued on her way walking towards her families residents eye witnesses observed her walking approximately two blocks from our families, home region, never arrived at her house that afternoon she has not been seen again. Rima was a smart little girl raised by mother, who totter the dangers of talking to strangers little did she know. Pure evil was lurking close to home and just right

round the corner. Rima was last seen walking home from school, greater was about forty three inches taller and forty five pounds. She was a beautiful blue eyed little girl with blonde hair that fell down to the middle of her back. She was wearing a pink shirt, plaid tan, skirt and white tights, when Rima failed to come home. Her mother Danielle became very worried. Daniel walk to the school to retrace her daughter steps, she saw nothing that would alert her and nothing that could offer any clue to wear. Her daughter was when she return home. She called the long view police and reported her daughter missing with the announcement of her child's disappearance, the

Lisa community organised and conducted an intensive search for the little girl, but just like now that in fine Rima and they didn't find any clues, despite no one coming forward, saying that they saw the little girl, abducted, police actually had suspects. Once aspect was a friend of remus step farther the suspect was twenty six year old joseph andrew investigators question him during their initial nineteen eighty five investigation, but there was no evidence linking Joseph to her case unfortunate Rima never returned, and eventually the trail when cold the case remained opened an unsolved. Then, over a decade later, on november, twenty first nineteen, ninety six as seven fifteen, a m Larry Holden, dropped off his niece and his fiancee daughter at school. His niece is Yolanda patterson and his

the answer is daughter is twelve year old, kara rudd after Larry drove off a nineteen. Eighty, two pontiac firebird pulled up to the sidewalk. The driver is now thirty. Seven year old joseph conjure up both girls new conjugal, the girls actually lie. together. Larry has custody of his niece and he lives with his fiance. Janet Karras mother, Joseph Conrad stayed for brief time at their so when Congo pulled over in his car, the girls came over to talk to him. Kara got in, car, while Yolanda state outside Joseph and care, I had some kind of conversation. Kara out of the car and tells Yolanda that she wants to skip school and go out to willow grove. There's a pig I'm out there and she wants to play with the piglets Yolanda once none of this, because if she skipped school they could get caught and then they would be in trouble.

Yolanda starts, making her way to the school billet contra drives off The last time Yolanda saw kara. She was walking east on hemlock street. The score principle is gonna. Karras mother to let her know that she was missing from school and then karras. Never gonna show up to the house that evening police instituted a community wide search karras. Their janet almost immediately suspected Joseph conrad of abducting her daughter. She called him repeatedly. He called her back returning her call. She picked up the phone but for some reason her answering machine, picked up and then recorded a conversation in which she accuses him of abducting kara Araby suspects that kara went to the pig farm, so please are gonna, make contact with them I repeat: yeah. He said that he wasn't home during the time frame in question and he also said he did not suspect that anyone visited his property while he was gone,

of Yolanda story about seen, conjurer outside of the school police like janet, where suspicious they question he claimed to have an alibi, but there was no one to back up his alibi. In fact, there was at least one person that came forward and said his alibi was false. Here's another case that were missing a kid that knows control and he's a suspect, but we have no body. We have no evidence. and we have a crappy alibi. So police start talking to every one knows contra. They need to get a handle on this guy. They talk to his ex wife, Julie west and they learn a good deal of info from her one thing of importance. She said that the same day that care went missing, she was in josephs car when she went to move the seat back. She saw a hair brush under the seat and she said that it look like a hair brush that would belong to a little girl. So

He said that she later called carers mother and they talked about the brush. Her mother said kara carried around a hair brush, just like the one that she saw in contrast, car, so condos ex wife, julie, Wes, gets into his car the day that care goes missing, sees a brush talks to the mother. They confirm that as possibly karras brush now she's going to go to police with this information yeah and the weird thing here is, and after she's done talking to the police, she gets a call from conroe. He wants to know what she told Paul is what is going on with the investigation and what do the detectives now right, jack,

tells him very little and then he threatens her with bodily harm telling her. She is not to talk to the police again. Well, god bless julie because she tells a detective about this phone call in the detective goes to the home of a judge to secure a rest warrant for Joseph Conrad. They arrest him that day for tee bearing with a witness they lock him up at the county, jail booked him on twenty five thousand dollars bail and that amount soon doubled, because the law was finally catching up to do. Ro he's also arranged on child molestation and rape charges. This is from a completely different incident and it was why He was sitting there in jail waiting for trial on these different charges. The police are taught to every one knows contra. They lie that he liked to hang out, sometimes at a vacant decaying house, on mount solo. This is just west of long view. On january.

Fourth, nineteen. Ninety seven less than two months after care, disappearance police were searching. A remote wooded hills. I'd at the mouth solo area. They came upon a ravine and spotted a rusted red volkswagen would know. Tyres are wheels inside the vehicle. They found karras black reebok shirt this car was tipped up. So it's it's lying on its side, but underneath the car they find the body of a female with her head toward the rear and her feet. Beneath the passenger side door officers used a winch to tip the car back up and they brought out forensic technicians. They took all relevant samples before cutting down a tree near by tree to remove the volkswagen from the immediate scene and process it further. The upper part of the torso was badly deacon

first in several of the ribs showed evidence of animal predation, but the lower half of the body had been well preserved by being completely under the car underpants and a pair of black shorts matching the description of what kara was wearing were on the body. after collecting samples in the immediate vicinity, the crime scene, tex loosen, loosened the dirt under the corpse so that they could slip to body bags over it one from each end. They were tape together and sealed, and the body transported to the state crime, lap. Dental records confirmed the body as carers. The county corner Gary Grieg declared that she died from homicidal violence by another

means pieces of physical evidence, including all of the clothing found on and around the body were sent to an independent lab in san diego seamen, deposits on carers, body and clothing, tied Joseph Conrad directly to the murder now that they have evidence against control has already said and in prison. still looking at him for two other crimes, so for two years, conjuror refused to cooperate with them. Two gaiters, even though his dna linked him to carers body, but then the trial begins and in a I'm shell courtroom announcement. Contrary plead guilty to raping and strangling kara and killing Rima traxler. Fourteen years earlier in his confession, he said he saw remo. when he was driving to local stored by beer and cigarettes. Joseph said he took remoter swimming hole on germany, creek and long view, and strangle

He claimed he buried her in a shallow grave near the location he agreed to deal with prosecutors which allowed him to. fast to murdering both Rima and kara and avoiding the death penalty investigator, sir the area, ninety, ninety nine, but we're on able to locate any sign of rumours body. God bless murder, victims care abroad because of her courageous fight to live and the forensic evidence collected because of that fight, her killer jos, contra was caught in the murder of Rima. Traxler years earlier was finally solved. When asked about Joseph Conrad, the county prosecutor, who participated in the legal proceedings against contra, said quote I have only twice in twenty five years, felt the presence of true evil when can draw. I would look at each other in the court room. It was a field

that there was nothing there in those eyes. I just never got any shred of humanity from him. If you had the chance to be brought back to life hundreds of years in the future, would you take it? Wonderings, newest outcast frozen head hosting ashen, alina of the hit show morbid, tells the true story of lawrence pilgrim, a lifelong scientist who plan for death his entire life, because for him death wasn't the end. It was just the beginning, Lawrence's dream to be frozen and brought back to life in the future pulls us into a cryonics soap. Opera filled with dead pets, grenades, family feuds, of fame, baseball legends and frozen heads. Lots of frozen heads the story about the desire to avoid death, the links that people will go make that a reality and what it means?

to be alive. To begin with less, the latest episodes of frozen head. Where ever. You find your favorite podcast watch. Pulse pounding moment. Sports live with sling tv starting at forty bucks. A mud slinging has the biggest channels espn, c network ac network big ten network? be a tv anti in t offer the best price stream on any device. the major channel line up to get the coverage you need and paused change your service at any time star, watching a five minute check out sling dot com for special offers even the live tv. You love for price, you'll love, try us today. Today's your lucky day, you can redeem sweeps coins for a fifty thousand dollar cash prize. A chumby casino joined for one million players at jumbo casino america's favoured online social casino. It's your turn play for free at but casino know, com, that's see, age. You mba casino, dot com. Now,

purchase necessary void where prohibited by law. Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply, see website for details. all right, sears mates and make sure you go to the website. True gram garage dot com, we have three different tank tops that are available for pre order right now, so check those out cheers. Do you captain and cheers to the great john douglas, so mister Douglas was kind enough to sit down with us in discuss some of his expertise, particularly in this case and have people dont know who John Douglas is he's responsible for what he's largely responsible for the what is typically known as the behavioral science unit at the fbi, which has inspired movies like silence of the lambs, the sick

mine hunter and many others, and just like so many times before John douglas, went to the prison and interviewed Joseph Conrad put the law through the bar after all right, so it's time for your airbus say bye to me, because I was invited to the then we'll. Maybe next time, captain now here's my interview with John douglas Guarding the Joseph conrad case, what can you tell us about the mount solo area and why police were searching there and what they found? The area with the weather, disposal site to occur. That's where they find a one of the victims, a and a m a in a volkswagen. A that he placed in a place in the and thinking

conceal, a good concealed area to dispose of the a you know, a lot of the body and, ah congo is far is getting on. whose history too, he was why did the interview a fan? It was pretty much predictable that one day that he would be perpetual in crimes like the ones that he that he did, he was he was abuse as a child, he had alcoholic patsy and too alcoholic was a. I was a bully. What a what was interesting with him was that as he grew older, he or she stayed fixated on on

a very young children use fixated autumn when he was young and then ass. He grew older. He just stayed fixated with with these young children. I e the crimes perpetrated they got him on to. They think that he could have done ass, many ass Seven, I think what makes the case so unusual with him. I really didn't. I didn't understand it and I had asked the question is you're, killing and children. Why I mean? Why are you telling here for your friends, children- and he said it's just a you just easy- he says attacking strangers. You have control or control issues and because they'll fight back, but by going after my friends, children or that a I would not have that. Have that problem I said yeah, but then you'd be an obvious or obvious suspect, wouldn't do it, and he said I was a suspect, but that they never could come up with anything plus

at the time for a post, the fence, what he would do it he would participate in searches. So the parents of the other big himself than on a suspicion, but a really. Never they never looked at him hard until, obviously, when he found the body and his the only mistake is when they found the body. That's hidden in the in the volkswagen was that he didn't do a better job of concealing the body and daddy got caught. Nothing as far as remorse towards the victims or the families of the victim is just that a you know that he got caught after months. Prosecutors offered condo a deal, so he could avoid the death penalty gave a full confession. Can you talk about his confession in some of the details that he offered up, it was offered deal to escape the death penalty, although they, they still believe that he was responsible for

and and even after they made the deal they were still trying to because he made a deal just signed on to his ammo. You know was too obviously he's close. You know close to the a and the children but the details and in fact, I actually did have this for MSNBC and they they really didn't and they cut out. All the details of the crime itself is how he he he tricked a one of the victims. For example, they had a code word or his family said okay. Now, unless you say the word person says word unicorn, that's gonna be our or our password then feel free to go with whomever is asking for that. Passwords Unfortunately he knew the password was and he picks up the or the girl any such young child, and he says he knows to kill it. There's no doubt about as soon as you get in the car, I'm going to kill her access to this were a remote area.

To all. In the details of specific details, the gory details of how he avis rate, rape is it how he strangled a victim try to drown the victim. How difficult it was to strangle. The stony jar takes a lot of body strength to kill I do manual, strangulation and excited. I didn't know that and then even after doing, all that he's still decided to you know basher her head in with a a with a larger or a large, There was just gonna remarkable that again, if it's the come emotionless. I know no empathy, the only time he shows some kind of some kind Emotional reaction was really about himself and about his his. Children is upbringing, but like

with his own children. I brought up the question. I said what, if somebody would or would go after your children when he said? Oh, I you know I would uh. You know I want them punished. I would. I would kill him, so he he's just coming from two different points of view anyway, and what he did to he, as as so many of them will do. Is they use they? Don't always? Why accept response ability? One hundred percent, so they'll blame they'll they'll project and projected on sometimes the victim. Sometimes children's parents, you don't have Two trusting tat had a case and flawed aware if you're a rapist- and he was you- know telling me that a I said- why did you pick this particular victim as well? She was in sitting on a barstool. In a diner at nighttime and it was obviously didn't have any underwear on so she was a mess. She was looking for it yeah it's it's like her fault, you find this so much with people like handwriting and others,

him? I? I already knew the answer to it was really crime of a power. Were he never thought he had power over his? He felt and his feels like one grain of sand on the beach of billions and billions of sand in grains of sand and how can the inadequate no. To become a somebody in and ensuring a lot of aggression at his house. Become a somebody how he can retaliate for his poor upbringing. Those in his mind it didn't wrong, was to retaliate by by killing killing others, but again he's the only only Cyril fan of I've ever interviewed. A attack attacked a attacked. His friends is friends, children, which was yourself. So bizarre. He serving a life sentence in you went to interview him in prison. Just like you, ve done with so many other killers. How do you prepare for these types of energy,

The preparation for the end user is very different than what you see on television and what and even in mind hunter where they go the prison and they have a tape recorder, Taken note one: when I do the interview I go to the police files? First, a medical examination, ports have all that. I look at the circumstances of how he was apprehended if he gave a confession Did he volunteer? The confession was discovered your work them over a period of time. I want to get to the present the prison itself. I then go into the into review the police. records the file, the files, I should say corrections, but that they have built up over the past years. You know on his feet how he's being analyzed by psychologist or you know there, and so when I walk into to the room, I will not have any any notes I will have. No someone have taper quarters anything anything like,

because I found early on one. did that, when we introduce save my job, mansion at camper, but we had a small tape recorder and was a little cosette and they were they like that to a very tyre noise. They live in and it should be paranoid thing where they are in prison. We can't back on someone without fear of being then be a knife don't be perceived as a sneer training like that, so by having it record or no se to deal with this stuff know what you know and- and so I finally decided no this- I have to go in there. We had a fifty seven page protocol interview protocol that was developed by a with us doktor an burgess at Boston college. She shall mind hunter. Is the wendy really in reality, an was not a psychologist Helen.

Sadly, the interviews we knew that we choose helping us on the air damn to developing this instrument. Fifty seven pages thousands of questions concerning the victim victim selection, subjects prius fans post the behavior behaviour all that stuff. So we would fill that out. That would be pretty much good chunk about be sold out. For going in and then the rest you'd have to memorize and that all have to do with, with ah the crime and the crime and the or the offender and the approach It would be more conversational, it's not it's. Alright, positive. You made I'm kind of some false hopes at the other No, she cooperating with us here we're helping what you're doing is helping us to receiving cases from all over the world now and we're going to apply what we learn from you and others. To these

the case of seeing if there are in fact the similarity second cross over into these other other crimes. You do you do that? If you do it right, they don't want to leave they. I want you begin. Even tell a magic gain experience. They want to know about themselves? What do you think? What made me take away? What some of them are very arrogant, very arrogant, doktor bruce about the crimes that they did and that you the other so good? yeah they made a mistake. They got caught, but that was it. It was a fluke A little bit I interviewed a an airplane skyjacker, one time who was shot yeah. He was shot at kennedy airport, he sky, jacked, an air airplane from a a lh to new york. He said, John, you, you never could catch me. If I was a fugitive, you have to cut off all contact with your family's christmas time. We know.

Christmas and the holidays is fbr police. You know they're looking for male and- and I said oh well yeah- we really, we can't catch. You know Obviously this is AMOS. Gary trap. Now I wrote a book called the foxes crazy to and at he scary. You often divan crime lies one year when you're dead. your dad was really a military hero. He he's buried at Arlington cemetery He went to his grave and saw where he was. and he was shocked that I had done it Just look at me, Tell me that we can't can't catch you, because you just so swiftly in your blood. Smarter ass I thought, if I totally fbi or police, I said at around the time of year. around how his christmas holidays and around your dad's birthday in the date you dad died, that we should search

a base, surveillance and owing cemetery. Will your dad is buried as saying that I dont even please sentence. He starts shaken his head side to side smile. And he says you got me. He says you did it right. He says yeah. He says you know I I did it. and so those are the kind of things in it and after a while, you gonna get good you start. You start the scene, these patterns. So these They start asking you about that. They want to know about that themselves? How was I created than, and why do you think I did the things I did. So how do that? But also tell him about the crime I were. I don't know anything about the crime other than the mere learn about, but I'll tell them about themselves. Around the time of crime was committed

the behaviour leading up to the crime. What was going on in your life, what they did after the after the crime based upon We can do on every case, but his face upon how that crime is interpreted interpreted here by me Looking at it and reviewing you know all the material it's interesting think for me interesting interesting as well for them and that created by doing that and creating a criminal profiling one from a programme to a major unit within the fbi that still has even groaned. In a bigger than it was when I was in one hour, hoping to learn about the killer. During these interviews to learn the why, So the behaviour does this before I have used it, and I've mentioned in this book and other books. Why, plus, how equals true? Well now we have the who, in this case,

What's that han sub case on one subject case, we got the guy. Why? Why, in the house of of the behavior and see you know, is there anything that he's can tell us that a that I can apply to another in other cases, I mean what he's telling us, for example, injecting himself into into the investigation or dissipating and searches. If you notice, in the same book the killer across the table, Joseph mcgowan did the same thing use school teacher when you killed a brownie, I joan de los angeles, as we see see a pattern, a you know like that, or you know as well, and so a lot of these cases you go in and you kind no action, I get a whole lot of information, but it may be. Question like just- one question you you just to know that can really help you get an example, dentistry.

The decay, strangler dishonest Is there a ah another book I I did because they interviewed him. I get the cases over the years from when he first killed in the seventies until eighty in the eighties click apprehended in the nineties by I interviewed I wanted to know why he stopped for years at a time you know that's, because law enforcement. Thank other guy moved to another area. He's incarcerated before he died. I just couldn't stop Nor can the chronic problems with bt k was committing just start. What happened dennis? Why did you stop? said one day I came home from work early was lunchtime, I decided to put the victims clothing on he would souvenirs momentous, you repeat the calling of the victims and he would cross dress the victims of any would put a plastic mask over his face and anyone in like lipstick and no

I browse the nose and he would then reflect his image in a mirror, and sometimes we take pictures in others, well on this one day. Guess why he's married two children within about square for household tiny house. Pre. Has all these commitments, mental lawyers of victims, secreted hidden from the rest of the family. His wife walks in anna and what the hell is this? It scares the hell out of him and he says. Well I got this problem that this cross dressing. He didn't tell her that Is it the colleagues from his victims, or did she realised that use mary to the bt k strangler? So he said John, that or the hell out of me. I thought you know for sure, or you know that John's dismay leak out or she may tell somebody that you've done goes and tells us he's. So we start for a couple years and then, once again, he did it a couple years, but then he did it again and and ah got.

for the second time and by his wife, almost lead and left them and scare the daylights out of him. So he did He just stop a couple more years and then, when hiding again and then the last time that would create his apprehension and causes apprehension. that there was a lawyer who is writing a book about the bt, gay strangler and in his I am thinking, is crazy, if anyone's going to write a book, it's going to be me. He says: well, who's got. How are you going to publish a book as well where write a book- and we have a high the book and who knows me two hundred years from now find someplace well bury it, and I realized I was the bt kay, the bt k strangler. So this this lawyer, my writing. That book so on demonstrated the beating strangler and then he started communicating with only the lawyer, but with the press, as well as on tv stay

And then he made a flagrant era when he the police. Are. He asked the police if he could or if he, if he spends a floppy disk or to them or to prove that he's the Bdk are like pictures of evidence and things like that, which would be evidence, but, like crime scene photos that he took. Would you be able to to trace this back to him? Yes and, of course, the police, I know well, he submits the floppy they bring in the computer guys and you really they Didn'T- have to be much of an expert as soon as they put it in a floppy disk and they see that a Dennis rader name is president of Christ, lutheran church in in a wichita Kansas how smart he thought he was he got caught. again the dumbest vague, but the point is I go back the interview you go in there, just young To ask us certain things that people humphrey, other things again. Is there anything we can learn to prevent, prevent this?

I'm occurring your. Maybe there was the trend in their backgrounds. If I mean what would they like as children were there were there red flags, forensic flags as a young kid that maybe a schoolteacher could have picked up on anything like that, and we started seeing that in his interviews. So flags such animal cruelty. We saw trend in that an earlier the early nineteen eighties and it's not until just a year ago. A year that now, after all these years, that the fbi has a category animal cruelty and uniform crammer port service, The police fills out that never crimes their cities today, how that category, because they recognise that There is a oftentimes stepping stone from animal cruelty to violent behaviour Did you find any animal cruelty encounters background congo had the animal cruelty. Is backroom traffic specifically why he did

or they don't always have it, but he's there were some early on and in a in his life, but I think it was dogs or cats and is also a bully in school, as well as in fact here. the other ones we interviewed as well in this particular, but we found ammo cruelty and their background. I speak at the species in hand, alas couple years and they can investigate eleven. Investing of arm, and there s a species. They have a scene links as well between this animal cruelty is progression elementary school. They notice follow it along and ensure enough, you start getting into a high school. You start seeing crimes, progress and in violent, violent types of crimes progressed. Did he ask you what you thought made him a killer? It's like so in so many of them do with conjugal. It was its life if you cannot say

Well, the with condo that condo what you did is not excusable felt for you You have the ability to make choices, but I can the stand because How you raise your appeal, abandoned, neglected, neglected as a as a child. It turned to alcohol at an early age. A and again there was there. Was this a cruelty in his mind toward him from family, schoolmates or so, and so it was, it was dick double that something like this would happen, not that everyone's gonna growth to be, in his case, a serial killer, but it depends on it, individually. How this pressure smiles, pressing respond by internal I it and turned alcohol drug seated, Someone asked someone goes so far as commit suicide. Others may survive depend. if they have a significant person comes in contact with the with them. So the early on in there

you know in your life with him as he got older and you can't change them, you can't you can't rehabilitate at that point in time, because and what I've said is really rehabilitate someone who is really not had militated to begin with, I mean get them back to when to what a I mean, his whole life has been, has been a hell and in their minds and then the crimes that they committed. I mean it's in their way of thinking, they're justified, it's justified as poor me is, it's always a a poor me, not the poor victim for me who Josef conroe: do you believe that an admitted child killer could go from nineteen? Eighty five to nineteen? Ninety six without killing know I know, but I don't have to look at into the case, but to go that law, but it would conjugal. Now others and he hinted

the interview at first. She says you know, I can't talk about other cases, but then I ask them during the interview. Are there other other cases, and he said yes, there are other cases and if I know that if you're going to police and try to solve, and you just can't trail they used to say was like boy out, maybe a burner factor and now there isn't any any by burn out, because in any it's a sexually motivated crimes, just thought. That was a that. That was the connection that it is a sex crime. So they don't. His burn out the pressing is older, saturated and inside. there may be saxon while in the case these occur, of power and and dominance, and bye, bye, fantasy and emotion. Ever early fantasy of what they want to do if they have the opportunity for committing a crime. That's right who had a real cultural heritage and the fantasies are sometimes it from an adventure. Standpoint

in a write out a the the their fantasies in books, or they actually will draw drawings like Dennis rader did of a of what he would do, how he would torture his victims and the fantasy as the fantasy is better than reality with sir, you know with them and I conjure up greater like some of the others and current the current, but because fantasy. Everything works perfectly they're they're, the they're, the the writer, the producer, the director a and a c actor, and and they it's perfect, but in reality, when the perpetrator, crime, they'll tell you this, if they didn't go, you know his plan. I didn't expect the victim to fight back as hard as the ah, you know as she did, or you know, or he I didn't. I didn't expect you realize what I would take us much strength through manually strangled, I that wasn't prepare for the victim to start crying.

Sobbing begging for their life. I I I I wasn't prepared to you know to hear you know you know to hear that so it just now, it's never as good as the fantasy. Some. Therefore, if it's not as good as the fantasy, they keep trying to keep trying to perfect the crime and reach a point where one day it will be just everything will be perfect because, like dennis rate and certainly up and other ones to hear their real fast would be if they could have a a a victim whenever the victim preferences captain. And as a slave type of thing, and do as they please with it. It was pleased with it Have you seen it on the west coast? You had likening your listeners will probably heard of them like an eng and and we've had a and this and this a current book, hot coal, half who's kept the victim a in it

toward container for a period of two to monster so down in south carolina. That's a city that they're looking for that. That's what Dennis rader really wanted to do a you know. He. You know him. You know himself, but ah it never worked out or never worked out. That way you've been face to face with some. Most notorious killers and just some real real life monsters. What, in your opinion, is the appropriate punishment for the worse of the worst for the worse and worse will work out where we're talking about. We have plenty of a series of as a serious crimes or mass mass cry- mass murders. Things like that, I have, I believe I I have eye for an eye on those types of cases yesterday, you say the worst of the worst, when, when I, when scotland, the actor came back to quantity,

I made him listen to a tape that I had from the two rapist out of college. name did occur, anaurus guidelines living up in idaho news. Yes, then believe and death penalty, and I let him listen to the tapes, because these two Rapists were now rehabilitated back into society, which was a joke and a fantasy. that time, but also to the people who release them was too great murder teenagers for every year of teenagers life. So they start at thirty and would go up to nineteen years of age and they kill. I spent six five six and what the was some of the worst. It was that they with torture, the victims and audiotape the torturing and spinnaker. His nickname was pliers better after the name in prison,

I interviewed him and a a b, and by that he would. They would use these different tools to torture, and I I could I couldn't. I have a hard time listening to it, when I would train police and I only play for really not that long to scotland who got, real emotionally supply I don't believe in the death penalty that I said I could see where and apply in a case like this, because this is really horrific or so I feel strongly about that. But then, since I left the bureau, I've helped free amanda knox. I was involved in that case. I helped Amy and eccles jesse ball, and Jessie misskelley and jason ball in the west mfa three case where three eight year old were killed. There are falsely accused of killing him wild with germany ramsay going into the thinking. There's a good chance

these were responsible, but looking at the case, workin passes in the grand jury, they had nothing to do with you with that. The case may be you know re, I I see, and I was just a panel of the new york two weeks ago with If the Amanda knox and eccles, discussing your there, their you cases and hear these these people who are. Fortunately there was no evidence. There was nothing for it. sickly linking either either of them today to the to the case. It was police using theories to drive. The investigate and went any time there was any forensic evidence taken them away from their theory, they would ignore evidence they were, they were ignored and the theory likely They met in even with a man and acts. Was that, as these are some kind of sick and murders with it. Calls was the early ninetys and put people police, particularly

we're attending seminars on satanic murders. They had pictures, kids are mere no boxes. Scientists, fifty thousand kids, are being done. We don't know where they are, like the suspect, making us I, like it's satanic satanic, the murders and the same thing with with a man that acts with her her prosecutor thing was trying to make sense census a marduk ass. He did it. for in the master flies case where douglas press than the author. He would he was going to arrest douglas press and he thought tat was preston. Was the monster So this is who she was dealing dealing so that I see those cases and I, I get concerns or you'd. You better have more you'd better. once again as any better, not realise just on some jailhouse.

or rely on a witness eye. Witness testimony which is is faulty and then you gonna watch even a collection and the collection and preservation of evidence to make sure that was done correctly. So I really if you're use it, I mean I'm satisfied with life without pearl ever having parole less unless that it makes god you then you gotta executed, because a guard and in the present, because you have to go and his presence to sea How do I really that can be how dangerous other opposition is four guys in their work life? And and if you can't get the death sentence and we want to stop him from killings, god a killing another another inmate but

it has any health, and just certain types of you know certain types of a you know of cases a b, but not a a. But I I have questions some of the some of us, I'm retired and of your, I just wondered if, when we got cases, if the evidence was collected, I believe it's. The medical exam in fact was certified of the precious they forensic pathologist was certified and but I've seen sense as well as in the bureau. I couldn't do cases for the defence, and so we can do it. The knife in everyone's while I'll get a casey occasion and sometimes nodded their guilty of sin, but other you'll, see in alma goddesses its pre ban, but they're everywhere? Looking for dna today, well dear the dna or framework not every case as dna

you're having a csi effect with the jurors looking way for the dna. Ok, what practices dna well, there may not be the dna happy dna to help free somebody from prison who maybe maybe wrongful convicted, and so I change my attitude because I For a start, I sent out everyone So now I yeah you're innocent got the other prisons innocent people, but then you see I've seen your that done with certain in certain cases certain individuals, certain departments. You question the question or you know the a a question or if they've done really like a capable and credible and honest job, what would you consider to be your most successful interview, I miss how they've all everyone you get all the different camera was good at it capitalised on the earlier ones. When why and the reason because he's smart is,

in forty five, I q. So so, who is he could be very introspective and and is any articles he was very good one. In this current book. I call him Another guy I mean who criminal? a very unusual crimes, easy he would retaliate against someone to get even- and I just don't cry This path across him up, he'll he'll, come back and and and He was very interests introspective. I had him right throughout the actually the fifty seven page for any and he gave me that plus plus heck of a lot more and we just learned. he has learned so much share felon? everyone can do something, but of the best I mean, like Manson, So I think we will have a good handle manson winning you go in there.

you could see on the ethics he played with me. He did at the joy spot gradually judged by ranch. Pretend to his followers. He sat upon an iraq, whereas with me he sits up on top of a chair or from here too a credenza, and you let him do I spicy two and six were to an end, I don't want intimidate our into talk, talk friendly but inaccurate, yeah going to learn a whole lot. You know fr or you know from him, or maybe the You love him. Is he the charismatic spinelli that he has were and you can see that pass we're into other crimes similar such as Jim Jones in Ghana. has matic personality or the waco taxes. So you see that hagen others charismatic articulate person. Now we are at his

he's gonna like you're a profit would like a profit play over the guitar, but the real he was primarily interested in drugs and rock and roll, and- and I was pretty much it and how we call it go for personalities. These young is looking for something like that That is better than whether coming from even other families, majority moved fairly well off families and that's really were rebelling against, and he just gonna simplifies life and he's. He wasn't big on the use of drugs, but he went with a administer drugs to everyone else, kind of orchestrate things and then went with women. He would have sex with the women, but then he would have the women are and then it was script and like fantasizing like they were having sex with like their father, and he was like his father, his father. You know, you know image, so you so he gets you. He has

experiencing his personality and you some of the mass and family members sweetie from Sandra good text. Watson with you any view, do you can see, we can see, these kind of people how these gophers, how they can easily be yeah yeah easily be MM, be manipulated or you know, by someone who criminal, smart, young, spanish the majority of life in prison and hear these kids are just coming from very much yeah upper class, middle class families and anchored easily when the boy and dominated by guy like mass. Do you think that text watson was trying to take over the leadership role from Charles manson? We never got that you from him

He certainly was one of the smart ones. He was a smart young kid at the time and a that never came across a yeah, but but he to start wondering probably know, he's a minister at the imprisoned and an effort for years. What we found when you ask when you ask people what, if you had a wake up the violent, potentially violent people, people, what jobs, if you could do it again, would you like to have and they would like to be ministers and counselors and have some type in law enforcement. You know, like you said at school counselors and then, when you think of it, these are positions of a power or you're listening to people's weaknesses and- and you can, you can

they take advantage if take advantage of people like that, we ve seen people in those businesses. I just mentioned done exactly like that for real. And so here you and that's what makes them attractive. So well, I'm a whole forget tax watson. Minister, Of course, he's trying to get out of prison to be parole. This should stay right where, where he is for the rest of his life, and you got David Berkowitz up in a while, he was Attica and when I interviewed him, but monsieur where he is now the here. These also so called ministers, and you can see why You can see why he would be. He was definitely looking for this power when he was perpetrators. Crimes up in new york I pulled out the new york daily news and I showed him. Son of SAM terrorize is new york city,

I mean his eyes blue eyes. Just kind of lit up and he's looking at me and he looks at my partner who's doing the interview. It was me back back and forth and and see if you know we're not trying to pull the wool over his eyes. You know the one hundred years, a david everyone's going to No, you no one's going to know me, but everyone's going to know you the son of sam of new york city and are just kinda. You just got they opened up so everyone you a little bit something, but from eleven some somebody knew the wonder and fairly dennis rate, is not smart. Dennis rader was lucky, he didn't. He wasn't really that a you know that intelligent and- and he got caught, making a dumb mistake. Sometimes they they get caught because they feel like they're, invincible, or they can do anything else on there, just so much smarter than the police and that's usually the the time we catch them is when they they start

doing whatever their doing the crimes committed. Maybe more frequency became or of a risk takers and then a unfortunately, we have to wait for that time before they can be we identified one thing: I've always wanted to ask you about John, and this is because I dont think that the general public, as a great understanding of how important this is when you are trying to profile a criminal. Could you explain to us how important victim biology is when you're putting gather your criminal profile. That's a good question. I licked victim algae, because why should a question to you is as because when samantha case oftentime, I just kinda skim over the background you know of the victim because they don't provide enough. In a you know, information on the victim I'm trying to give an example, a case a case comes in, and They make me say where the girls and women s issues, promiscuity, something or I'll

What do you mean? I mean? What do you mean by that After have years ago, years and years ago, I owe my dad mama allow. I was a kid, show? This? Is your life and somewhat come out behind the screen and start talking about their life to to do at any time. You spoke a guess who this person is, and when I asked for police, I say: tell police doo doo victim I'll. Do you have to find out everything about his neck? I want to know I'm trying to figure out why this victim was the victim of a crime. Was it was a he or she a victim of opportunity, a in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something that the victim was was involved with the young hear that increase the the risk level, a give example a say. A woman's driving down the highway runs out of gasoline a a a a. Trucker combined, someone in car offers offers a ride

shows are missing in finding a body she's dead, so we ha. We start off with a that's a difficult case by the way to solve, because we we start off with it. With a very low respect them. She call breaks down. I our gas, whatever the somebody she doesn't know? She's increase the risk level. The victims of violent crime, the body. In all probability, be disposed outside book, leaving very little forensic evidence to you know to work with pleasure it also shows the mobility of the of the offender I'm in the area of rape, free sample and, of course, a lot of people say. Well, we do a serial murder cases, you do every a case really, and every into assessments you got a problem, Corruption, assessments, police, corruption? You could do ice and bombings, product tampering, extortion, kidnappings in the area of rape not coming in the states. You know the a the victim was right. The subject perform sodomy a a on the victim. I would

What do you mean to me something in every different state? I don't know what do you mean for me? I will tell him an analysis of your case. I have to know three components of a of the rate case. no, the verbal, the sexual and physical assaults took place without victim verbally. What was the subject saying? confronted the victim? What was he saying to the victim and I, if at all during the sex act? What did he say when he left the victim physically? How much forces to use that he use it just enough, the control of them, or was he excessive or in the amount of force and least sexually. What did he do sexually the victim and in what order? Did it These things such later, the victim how you combine it all now level sexual physical scripts here now, that information I'm able to do now, decide which

type of rape typologies, we're dealing with, because your five wait, I policies and once we have information, we can argue. We have extreme extreme left- would be power reassurance rapist joey. Someone who lives in the neighborhood he's the carpet reassurance cause he's asking the victim, how's performances. Asking for reassurances performing well. it's the way over on the other side, the other extreme, on the right side will say: is that the sexual sadist? No matter what the victims as amount matter how cooperative victim will be if they get out of this mess. With this decision He goes way beyond is necessary that the torture, the physical, the language, threatens the killer. Come act together here, so an impetus, all the other one steward it's it's. We all sit around power anger, but by tat, Information we can. We go,

so determined paper. Maybe prior crumble histories that they would have whether or not This is a transit guy. Whether or not this is a local paper from rape is generally The first one I mentioned. The power reassurance type is someone who is is in the area has familiarity with oftentimes effects of indoor a case a more times. Another indoors with the power reassurance is, is familiar with the residence may then there too paper, the walls report, my shampoos, carpets, fix plumbing or just duvalier respect activities has it does not want to go and call also has familiarity, so we can, you can return but you gotta have the information you got it. You have to educate the police to get the right and more times than us

they may not have that they don't have it. You have to go back and so victim ideology. The commodities is key and victim algae too de. It is a product tampering, attic, say a major company, so dictum algae is not so much the person, but really. the company here, what's going on with it, Why would there be product tampering? What's is any trouble going on to shovel the union's is troubling supervising and subordinate sir pay cuts, lay offs or anything like that so and so that that becomes your victim here, you're victim This is not a person. Now it say yes, a building, and from that we can come up with yeah. I always would come up with a direction for the investigation.

Thank you, John Douglas, for being on our show thanks. I ave figure it out, but by Joseph Conrad never expressed any remorse for his deeds and in fact he vowed to kill again even behind prison walls. He hinted that there have been other victims but saw nothing to gain by confessing. Well, if you hook up a meter to my emotions, their flat line, conjuror set in a prison interview, I dont know where my emotions are. I couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks authorities also suspect conjugal kill. Eight year old, Shiela silver nails of kalama, whose strangled nude body was found in a creek bed a day after she vanished on her way to catch the school bus

silver nails. Mother had dated conjure in another interview, contra said quote what I would like to see result from publication of my story. Contra said he hoped to explain what happened to a good, healthy kid and cause the reader to take better care of their children. Look what I have taken. He said I took a whole communities, children in two thousand and twelve murder Joseph conrad. Serving a life sense for killing two long view girls died in the state prison at while a wall. hundred died of liver disease. Due to hepatitis c. He was fifty two years old care odds, grandfather said he was happy to learn of condos death. Adding quote he's burning in hell right now, I hope he suffered and, to quote the captain quote, use a real piece.

This week we are recommending the killer across the table by, dare I say, good friend, of the show garage army member, the great john Douglas check out the killer across the table, unlocking the secrets of serial killers and predators with the fbi's original mine hunter? This fascinating and haunting expert account helps us understand why the most shocking homicides occur. and you can find that title as well as others at our website. True crime garage dot com on the recommended page of you for more true crime, garage to listen, do or old episodes download the stitched up and check out our show off the record on sticker premium until

next time, everybody, bigger, betide dauntless. You can go competent. Continental is the smart choice in taxes and a heavy with streams. Anything further guy who finds that one potholes they made up of chilean engineer tat, really really real continental available count tyre.