The the welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing, thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is a man who, just this morning, various stuteley pointed out that, right now at every company in amerika, the I t, guy

more important than the ceo. He is. The welcome welcome welcome. I am your captain of the flying garage ship. It's good to be seen, and it's good to see. You thanks for listening thanks for telling friends today I am so happy that we are featuring the very great son drifter by some really good. People over at south county, brewing company garage, great four and a half bottle caps. Five sondra after is a double india, pale ale, new england style within a b b of percent it's loaded with flavor chevy in a little blank like one would expect, but balanced out nicely with notes of white peach white gummy or white wine and just a little hint of pineapple- and I first want to send out a special thanks to my friend, cheers to Patrick, are out in hanover

pennsylvania and a big shout out to megan and millis massachusetts, are I'm going to get this one. My best shot here captain because we have camilla from I can't do it. Somewhere in sweden. A big shout out to maggie- and ruse rouge louisiana. Next up. We Jackie and Joe in the uk and last, but certainly not least, we have no coal. In june civil floor, everybody that we mention went to true crime, barrage, dot com and contributed to this week's beer. funding. For that we give you a big thing, and if you're on the mailing list check email, because you have a special promo code. That's good for this week only as a thank you for being a part of the true crime garage army So enough of the business everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime

september. Eighth, nineteen, eighty three dear parent! This department is conducting a criminal investigation and

child molestation, re, bucky, Employee of virginia mcmartin preschool, was arrested september seventh One thousand eight hundred and eighty three by this department The following procedure is obviously an unpleasant one, but to protect the rights of your children as well as the rights of the accused. Inquiry is necessary for a complete, investigation records indicate that your child has been or is currently a student at the pre school. We are asking your assistance in continuing this investigation, please in your trial, to see He or she has been a witness to any crime. he or she has been a victim. Investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include oral sex bundling of genitals, buttocks or chest area and sodomy

possibly committed under the pretense of taking the child's temperature also vote, may have been taken of children without their clothing, any of nation from your child regarding having ever observed, re bucky too late. classroom alone with a child during any nap period or if I have ever observed. Re bucky tie up a child is important, Please complete the enclosed information form and return it to this department in the enclosed. to return envelope as soon as possible. We will tat. You have circumstances dictate saying we, you to please keep this investigation strictly confidential because of it nature of the charges and the highly emotional effect will have on our community. Please do not Scots. This investigation with anyone outside your immediate family do not contact or scarcely the investigation with raymond bucky anymore or of the accused defendants family

employees connected with the mcmartin preschool. on august 12th, one nineteen, eighty three Judy Johnson called police reporting that her too, old son who was attending the mic. Martin pre,

who was being molested at the school by twenty five year old re bucky raise mother is peggy mic. Martin Bucky and his grandmother is virginia mic. Martin raise grandmother is the founder and owner of the pre school The Bucky family runs and operates this pre school, the detective the caught the case. She would start her voice gave him by interviewing a bakers dozen. This included johnson, sun and twelve parents that Johnson passed along their information to the detective. Ok captain so this is serious allegations, obviously alleged despicable acts committed and your victim is very young. Roughly just two and a half years age. The boys mother is making the report to the police, but are we

please she was not there when the crimes or alleged crimes were committed right. This type, a predator, is actually more dangerous, because if these allegations are true, These individuals are around children all day long. Yes, many many shall victims at the ready for this this offender. So the investigation starts off like this. First, the little boy is unable to pick re. Bucky out of school photos went off. with the police. A medical examination of the boy showed no signs of sexual abuse and really fail to produce any evidence at all regarding sexual abuse, but we all I that there is not always signs nor evidence. Present. The other parents interviewed the the first twelve. basically all said that they had no reason to suspect that anything nefarious was going on at the school at all and

wondering here captain if some of these parents at this first twelve, if they even New RE bulky, Europe probably didn't, know re bucky or who he was, but this was a prestigious preschool allow these parents wanted their kids to be gone there. I don t go, is as easy as signing up and get it. your kid and the mcmartin preschool yeah in a little side note here regarding Judy Johnson son, she just dropped him off at the school one day months and months before these allegations ever came out. He he wasn't technically like signed up to go to the school and, as you said, you may have had to jump through some hoops to get your child into the school. This manhattan beach right, so she described, offer

kid and they just had to they didn't. Even they didn't know who the kid was. They didn't know who the parent was. Why the kid was there, they were all they were kind of confused, but the mick Martin's and are pretty from from I understand he looked, you can look at it one way or the other, either their despicable horrible people or they got into this business because they really, you care about children, while the mother and the founder of the preschool received a lot of different awards actually got none of the year, a word back in the day for her work at this preschool. So they didn't like kick the kid out. They just accepted him at the school and put him into the system. Right and once they figured out who the mom was. He just became a student, but his first day at the school. For my understanding, she just dropped him off and didn't speak to anybody. Well so far, this investigation is not looking so great. We have the boy who can

pick out the accused from school photos, and we don't have any physical signs of abuse that the medical examiners can find on the boy so Move on to the next steps right, we need some evidence, so searches of the school, the grounds and of the bucky family home are conducted during the searches police car the evidence, none of it damning at all. Mostly, this is just typical household items of note. We have a run duck a graduation gown and a few pictures that were cut out of a playboy magazine, despite any real evidence that all police did arrest ray buckey. This was on september seventh, one thousand nine hundred and eighty three, but the los angeles district attorney's office declined to prosecute

due to the lack of evidence, and they wanted more. They wanted more evidence collected and ray bucky was released later that same day, so the next day, the manhattan beach police sent the letter that read by our amazing hosts during the trailer. This letter went to two hundred parents names ray as a child. Molestation suspect. The letter is asking for the help of the parents of these children to question their kids, if the children knew of anything going on at the school, asked them about fondling about oral sex about sodomy. The difficult thing here. Look, there's many difficult it is going on with this situation. The letter doesn't seem like a great strategy doesn't seem too well thought out. I get that you are reaching out to a lot of people to the masses all at once. It's

He was a little while just seems like a dumb idea to me, but then, on top of this you have be questioning parents who are now going to be questioning their children. Some of these kids are very young like two and a half years old. They asking them about things that and two and a half. They don't even know about these things. They don't know what this stuff is born. You have to be careful when you're questioning children where you're not leading them or your eye, giving them the answers, and so like he said these parents are trained to do so, and it's weird to put out this law, because again, the initial all questioning of the twelve parents, I would say, is enough because just because there's maybe some smoke or we have an allegation, doesn't mean there's fire and you you go and read this individual's home. You find nothing right, the list of things that they find rubber, ducky,

What does that have to do with anything? Well, the graduation gown will later be later. We're going to be told to be told that graduation gown was like a a sea tonic robe like a robe that somebody would wear during rituals, are or say tonic mass and at the end of the day, is it just a graduation gown. well, yes, people have them in their homes. It is born during a ritual when you graduate from school pick on october. Seventeen The l, a county DA's office, asked the children's institute international to enter, if children who attended the mcmartin preschool it looks like in the captain that they interviewed about two hundred and fifty children. The interview techniques used were highly suggestive and they even encouraged the children to pretend or speculate about suppose it events

was claimed that three hundred and sixty children had been abused. This is, after speaking, with the two hundred and fifty there were examinations and the children were photographed. Some of them were photographed and why, child in particular- and I'm using air quote or was photographed by an expert who says it, there was some kind of scoring that happened on the child, which she stayed was caused by anal penetration. Later research demonstrated that the methods of questioning used on these children, were ass, sad extremely suggestive and leading to false accusations and others believe that the questioning itself may have even led to false memory syndrome

Now I'm a little confused as to why we see a number so high. You know that the victim number of potentially three hundred and sixty when all of the information I could find says they only interviewed about two hundred fifty kids. So I'm I'm kind of guessing here captain that a lot of those two fifty would have had to be victims, I'm selves, but may have also witnessed something. Maybe they're stories included, witnessing acts on others that were not interviewed right. I don't know it does It doesn't seem to track. It doesn't really check out, but one thing: that's very difficult to get over here is when you're interviewing this many children and it's been said, that not one of these children had made any claims of abuse before these interviews brain. But after that,

these interviews are conducted. You got hundreds of them saying that they were abused wagon and goes back to whose question them in and what level of expertise to they have question in children. is there a reason. We're gonna see hbo documentary capturing the friedman where they go into depth, of how not to question kids and how you can get kids say certain things and- and this will actually be put into practice after the eighties enough this trial? Obviously, what and one very basic thing of child psychology debt that we know is when a child's being interviewed specially a very young child is being question by an adult, regardless of who that adult is most of the time. The child will see the adults as some type of authority and if I were to hold up a stop

and I'm talking to a little kid like three year old kid and I say, appointed stop scientists they. What colors is in it child says read- and I say. I don't have to say no. I just say what color is this. If I say the same sentence again asked the same question again. The child then assumes They have given the wrong answer right and so they want to please the authority they will search for. You answer and it's a lot like the jesse. miss kelly interview, really I mean they just keep asking in the same questions over and over again he keeps changing his answers until until the move on and then he's like, oh cool, I got the right answer. We have all these heads now with claims of sexual abuse and in some even bizarre claims and we're gonna get into some of these, but keep in mind

it all started with only one person coming forward. Only one mother came forward while, and you have bucky work. And he looks like a a mix between I'd, say, Christopher reeves and jeffrey Dahmer, if you see his the first trial, he has a dahmer glasses on dahmer glasses on, and so I think, a superman dahmer baby yeah. I don't that helps him much well in early nineteen, Eighty four social services suspended the schools licence and the school was shut down. About two months later: seven pre school employees, four of which are from the mic. Martin family. They indicted on one hundred and fifteen charges of child molestation. All seven of the accused were jailed all seven pled innocent to all charges. They were charged with sexually.

Seeing eighties children over a ten year period, now in the coming months, the number of victims rights? Official charges would grow significantly from eighteen to forty one child victims these forty one, young victims will need to testify or issue statements for the preliminary hearings. The first child witness states that he and some of the other students played what he called naked games and he was touched inappropriately in in bad spots by some of the defendants, The other thing that we will start hearing much more about during this time is that the defendants used death threats to silence the children on june. Sixth, this an the star of an eighteen month, preliminary hearing of the

them would take the stand, but then, in a stunning turn of events, the mother, who made the first accusations against ray buckey remember: this is Judy Johnson. She dies. She was found dead at her home on December 19th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five at the young age of forty four

in eighty five at the young age of forty four, she died from a liver, ailment commonly found in alcoholics. What's even more weird than that, because she was actually supposed to testify the day that the founder, because she actually called the judge and said hey, I don't I don't wanna, I don't wanna testify and they said well, we we kind of need you to come in it's important for the jury to hear your testimony and then they find her dead at her house, and there were some people that were suspicious of her death in regards to the charges against this again. Air quotes child sex ring that thought

which is it's awfully convenient that she died just before being able to testify yeah. So this next part. This is straight from the wikipedia page on the case, because they had this summarized just so perfectly that I wanted to include it. The page says some of the accusations were described as bizarre. You can say that again and we're going to get into that. Some of the accusations included, satanic ritual abuse. Some of the kids said not only were they sexually abused, but they witnessed flying witches. Some of the kids said they traveled in a hot air balloon and some were taken through tunnels that were located. I the school in one photo line up one child identified actor, chuck norris as one of the abusers. There were a

that a rabbit, a go and a baby, we're all sacrificed in front of the children. There were claims of orgies at car washes and at airports and of children being flushed down, toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused, then cleaned up and presented back to their parents at the end of the school day. So child? Interviewees talked of a game called naked movie, star, acre, chuck, norris and suggested that they were forcibly photographed, nude, Judy Johnson, who, as we said, away. Even her busy. if the were quite bizarre, she came forward her little boy was having painful bowel movements so Judy leave that the boy had been abuse. her son said that he was not, but her claims and allegations against ray buckey, not only included

fondling not only included fondling abuse and sodomy, but she also told police that re bucky had superpowers and that he could fly like clerk right and again, remember her son was not able to pick re bucky out from school photos it. It would have actually come out that Judy Johnson was once diagnosed with and hospitalized for acute paranoid schizophrenia. This this is what's really Sad here you know when we, when we were these stories, captain there's always like this smaller. Sad story hidden within these larger stories. The tragic life of Judy Johnson is just ass. She sat at it breaks my heart. This to me appears to be a woman that needed a lot of help and, I think recognize- She didn't recognize because of things she was suffering from

I don't think she recognized that she needed help and she didn't get it. And get the help that she needed, and I think that that ultimately lead to her. Her passing away at such a young age In january of nineteen, eighty six, a judge ordered all seven defendants to a superior court trial on one hundred and thirty five counts of molestation and conspiracy, but very quickly that would change because, just eight days later, the against the district attorney said there was insufficient evidence against five of the accused was actually requested, a dismissal of charges, so they d I was going to move forward against just two of the accused. Now the two remaining are ray bucky and his mother, so we martin bucky and ray bucky remained in custody awaiting trial facing about one hundred counts of milan station in conspiracy

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There's real, no proof found the child, can't even pick real he out of a line up, and this would be the person that they're claiming abused him and then they send out this letter. This letter goes out to hundreds of parents, like we both said they're not qualified to question their children. We get crazy claims, these underground tunnels, high air balloons and because these claims, and because these allegations lot of a mortal. Well yeah these other kids were there. While this was going on. So therefore, since they can't his be re, bucky, that's involved. It has to be these, their teachers in these other ministers at the preschool half know. What's going on, there's all Other claims that there are three main them with guns, they're, killing.

animals in front of these kids saying hey. If, if you don't, if you tell on us, then we're going to kill your family and and then it becomes a whole, while this is not only just a sex ring, but this is also a child pornography, they're taking pictures, they are filming things and it's all say tanning. The claims by the children are just bizarre. Now keep a mind. Some of them are very young. Some of them were current students at the pre school date, but but it goes to show you that if some of these claims that are so fantastical, if they can't, if they are physically, not possible, I mean just science alone tells us some of these things. One hundred percent did not happen. You would think that these experts would take this a little further and say well our technique that were using the question. These kids is coming up with some some pretty weird stuff here:

maybe it's all weird stuff, maybe it's all made up. We we have, and then you have, the the sun Judy Johnson son, not only we're not even talking about a photo line up that he couldn't pick robe re bucky Adam, he couldn't pick re bucky out of school photo they were showing the child school photos and, like just settle some of these claims. The initial claim, like we said, Judy Johnson's, claim that re bucky could fly. We know right, he cannot fly and one of the students said that about the orgies at the they were having orgies, with the way that these adults at car washes and airports. Yet there is no witnesses to any of this stuff. One of the kid says that they flew him and several other kids flew with the owner from California to florida on a plane.

It had no windows that it left from the airport and then, at the end of the day he and the kids their when their parents came to pick him up its four and a half to five hours. hi back, it's impossible that the child would be there. I mean there was men back, it's impossible that that the child would be there. I mean there was mention of a have a house where law and lived. We also have situations where some of these kids are saying things like an elephant was killed at the school in front of children, that re bucky held up rabbits and cut off their ears and told them that if they told their parents, that's what he would do to their parents yeah they they did a surge of the school to see. If there were digging stuff up to see. If there,

was remains of animals found with correct that there were none. There was some claims where some of the kids talked about being taken off of the school and go into houses. The weird thing is some: those houses actually existed but

again. How are they question and then one of the main reporters at the time that kept reporting about this on air, which that's another thing we have all these claims and because it made good tv that make all these claims public and then you have key macfarlane, which was this a social worker that would, in our view, the children using puppets, and they had tons of footage of this, and everybody thought this was the nail in the coffin. This is the smoking gun and then defence tourney said. Okay, we want to see it and the prosecution did not want them to see this and from defence attorneys mouth which obviously they they have a gender. But they say you can these films and you can watch these interviews and it proves that nothing happen right right. It's like a smoking gun in the other way. Well,

Eventually, captain Peggy mic Martin was released On two hundred and ninety five thousand, dollars, bail, but bail, Bucky was denied bail, remembered this whole thing started back. nineteen eighty three in our time. I now we are at january of nineteen eighty six, but it won't be until April twentieth of nineteen. Eighty seven, that the court begins. Jury selection, so you have the right to a speedy trial, but you just might not get one. What you see here is a process that drags on on and on and the longer it goes, the more the case just keeps falling apart right, we see the reduction in victims, then we see the reduction of charges and perpetrators by october of nineteen. Eighty eight now five years into this process, we are down to just two accused and now There are just sixty five charges left and

only eleven victims. What I think you have here captain is what you are getting out with those video tapes. I think when the price Secures are looking at these video tapes and watching them they're going well. We can't put this. on the stand. He's he's making claims that are scientifically incorrect. That cannot happen right. They are picking and choosing which victims to believe right, but this is this is where it gets tough for me, because the initial investigation, I think at that point you go while there's some claims, we're going to keep an eye on it, but for some reason they were dead set on bringing down bucky and his family. That's where the letter came out and that and again before you even go to.

trial before you charge. Anybody take these hundreds of claims and, like you said, if somebody sane, while we went down the yellow, brick road and ran into the scarecrow and the the lion and the tin man that maybe that didn't happen, and we should push that one aside and ones that are credible or we can now we with some kind of evidence. Now we push that in the pile of possibly could happen, and so again you wanna ruin these individuals lives by making these claims against teachers that worked in this pre school could do match being a teacher, and you done nothing but try to help kids in and nurture kids and you're in this profession because You love, kids and now you're being accused of, say tanning, worships and say ten.

sacrificed in the in the sense of molesting, these kids and your lumped into this, pile with zero evidence, zero eye witnesses that some of the like, you said somebody accusers, can't even name who attacked them, and so there so much stuff that I think I could have been done a nationally and also this became us. This became a story like you said the first accusations. Nineteen eighty three were a three four years into this thing. These new stations are reporting on this, almost daily, all the media loved this story because they loved the the fantastical accusations. How buzz Are these accusations? Were they loved in the really the these seven people especially the really martin family. They were really.

Being tried in the court of public opinion by the media right. What they did was You know we have these preliminary hearings going on. They didn't allow any cameras in the courtroom because we had children who were taking the stand: child victims name, they didn't Oh, the media does not know the name of the child, but they can hear they're. Listening in on closed circuit, tv, and then they're running to the to the press. There, to the camera with each one of these crazy fantastical accusations and, like I said, king farlane, which is a sulphur worker but choose dating on air per,

in reality, that's a compromise covering the trial right, that's a conflict of interest right there and I tried to take a step back and think. If I'm a detective and hear these claims, the initial claim, while I want to get this bastard right, I want to get that. I don't want anybody to hurt any child. I don't want anybody

you re a child and to have them, be messed up for the rest of their lives and, like we ve seen time and time again, kids that are abused, big can become abusers, ripe cycle, a cycle of abuse right and it's not, I think way. Back in the day, I said it was a high percentage. It's not. A high percentage is not a high percentage that you'd be abused, and then you become a bitter, but it's enough that it's like you said it creates a vicious cycle. So this is something as a detective as a path as as anybody that you would go. We need to stop this. We need to get to the bottom of this, but once you keep running into Britain,

oz and just like the tunnels, I mean you started digging up. You start trying to fine before they dug up anything the rooms that these kids come on, claiming all that's the room and we went into a tunnel while there are national checks that they could do to find up. There's no tunnel here right so at at some point. These claims that you are giving it is okay and you can go okay while we messed up because we question these kids wrong you can go ok. Well, we must stop because we question these kids wrong, but you know what these kids will forget about that them. The kids will forget about making false claims pretty quickly once this all goes away, but in the process you ruin the school there.

winning awards. Protecting was a prestigious preschool to go to winning awards. Protecting children, safe environment and because some initial claims- and you didn't even do a background check on the people that making the claims you when so many people's lives. Yeah I mean the they shut down. The mic martens, family business and the mic. Martin family lost everything during the course of all this thing, they February all their money on their buckey in february, nineteen eighty nine re bucky is finally released from jail. This on one and a half million dollars bond and after he is, in jail for about five years, he's been in june for five years. Yes he's being charged with something, but can you think actually

He imagined being in jail for five years and you ve actually not been convicted of anything. Yet Europe you're still in the trial process. But while by that look its both be innocent until proven guilty? So if he's innocent till proven guilty, he should be out god. They waved for no no, release for bucky because of the supposed death threats against possible witnesses. but see here here we are nineteen. Eighty nine! Once again, all the charges are again reduce this time down to fifty two counts, so you can, even

the prosecution isn't very happy with their case, because this thing just keeps getting reduced and reduced and reduced during the trial. Both of the defendants did take the stand. This is pretty much the two biggest parts or or highlights. If you will of the trial a lot of times, defendants don't take the stand of this was this was of interest to the media and both of them in what is A trial that the truly all of america is watching both defendants, of course, strongly denied ever abusing any students, any child ever at all right during the while some of the children's testimony stated that the naked movie star game was act something a rhyming taunt used to tease other children. This was something that the kids up and then it turned into this whole. Weird sex ring thing. They are saying The kid said this rhyming taught went like this. What you say

You know kids come up with them, little rhymes to say, and so this had actually nothing to do. It had actually nothing to do with having naked pictures taken of of the kids at all one big things in this and this trials when they had that three doctors that were taken evidence in other they examining these kids are taking photos or documenting everything, because I wanted to be able to say look, these are the claims are making, and these are the reasons are making these claims and a lot of talk about well because of these views that you can see on the genitals and on different areas that you could see scars or scar tissue in and they had all three.

Which was a great move by the defense team separately? They said. Okay, can you point out the area and they had all three experts and all three of them pointed out different areas yeah, so none of them match at all? When I initially heard some these claims that parents questioning a we know that that's probably not right, we know they're not qualified to question their their kids, but once these kids are. no more weight into that, because we have medical, examiner, saying: hey, look, there's some signs, there's not a hundred percent proof evidence, but there are definitely some signs, and so I put some weight into that on november. Second, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine on november second nineteen, eighty nine, the jurors began deliberations for what would be three months ended sixteen days later,

that the jury ended their long deciding period and the long awaited verdict was in the jury, acquitted both peggy mc martin and re bucky of all fifty two counts, but we are not done yet because some of the jurors at a press conference following the trial stated that they if the children had in fact been molested, but the evidence did not allow them to state who had committed the abuse, ray a reasonable doubt and much of the media seem to be convinced that re bucky was guilty as well. I, and on that, that's going back to what I was saying about the metal examiners, when you have a doctor, forget all this hocus pocus bull shit in these tunnels and these naked movie star game.

All that stuff. When you have a doctor telling you that there is some evidence there, it's like okay, well again, what the jury is saying is. While there is some evidence there, we just don't know who did it? a jailhouse snitch who comes for you. I know how much you love it a good old, jailhouse snitch. They should be they should, who comes for you, I know how much you loved a good old jailhouse snitch. They should be, they should not be legal, yet he comes from and says you know jail. He told me he fast to me that he did abuse some of these these children. Yet did you know how long this individual was in the cell? With Much about it, because I didn't look into that angle because it was discredited. Yes it while what here's here's the story so at the time California was getting in big trouble.

California was gonna big trouble because they were taken individuals that their work able to get anything out of, and there were taken known, jailhouse niches and put them in there and then obviously having them run it on trial. So what they do is they put this individual and the cell less than forty eight hours so you're having a guy that's claiming for years. I am innocent, not telling the authorities anything not cracking at all, but somehow they put it guy in their put him in the cell with him under, the eight hours for confess singa like a bird boy. Here's what so funny the guy shows up he's he's on stan one time. One day he asked to come back the next day by

he down in ever showed up. So they arrested him so the first day they get those jailhouse now and they got him all dressed up and they got it in a suit and they got him. in the game. Right. Combed, hair and everything doesn't show up the next day and they find him they have to arrest him. So now it's the second day of him talking about how he got confession of re and he doesn't have a suit on any recovery. In tat and he his hairs not done and by the way, that's too sheriffs on each side of him as he's testifying yeah. Now it didn't go well for the prosecution, but these jailhouse niches, Is it stupid there? So many of them that have been false, that it's like they should this be it should be illegal.

The the thing here, though captain we have, for who is actually going to be retried later this time on just six counts. But this trial resulted in a hung, jury, the fusion but hold on. This is two years I've roughly two years, the the first trial. What I one thousand, nine hundred and ninety to July 27th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety. This resulted in a hung, jury. The prosecution then gave up trying to obtain any in a hung jury. The prosecution then gave up trying to obtain any type of conviction. In the case. The case was closed, with all charges against ray bucky dismissed in the end ray bucky was jailed for five years. Without ever being convicted of committing any crime at all. There should be a law there in the into the trial.

dollars at lasted seven years was cost fifteen ilene dollars at the time it was in this still may be the case today. It was the law of the united states legal system, and I have said it was a trial that ultimately resulted in a grand total of zero convictions, and we said the mcmartin preschool was closed, but the building itself was actually just met dismantled preschool was closed, but the building itself was actually dismantled and guess what there were are no tunnels under the school. The secret tunnels under the school were much of the alleged abuse supposedly took place. They didn't even exist while they did bring in an arca archaeologist to do some

is india jones and I he he claims he found tunnels, but a bunch of reporters that followed him. His investigation was yeah. He found tunnels once he dug the tunnels her so that building material was pretty much just trash from where they constructed the school itself, while he building material was pretty much just trash from where they constructed the school itself. While he also claim that he found a plea that had a penny, graham on it again that could have in place there. A good thing about this wave, your some teenager that lived in the area- and you know what they're looking for and you jumped the fence one day in and put a penny graham on something right and I'm not trying to make excuses. It's just. I don't buy any of that stuff. I don't lie.

will europe your spot on, because there were people that were like spray painting graffiti on the school and on the grounds after these charges were brought forward. When these kids talk about these tunnels. Are these secret rooms? Don't you think the police and the detectives in the the prosecutors want to find that, and they would have found that if there was a tunnel just a simple tunnel, If the killers want to find that right and they would have found that if there was a tunnel just a simple tunnel, there would have found that and to me you find that while there's your smoking gun- because for a kid to say, oh yeah, we were, we were molested in this tunnel and were playing this secret room. If you find that secret room and that tunnel- and you have hundreds of people

that lead. Their kids go there than never heard about this room or the secret spot to mean that would be a smoking gun, but that this This whole scenario is strange because you know we have to take allegations of sexual assault, rape, anything like that. We have to take it very serious and cuz on some level I go. I can't did these detectors a they wanted to find something, but they did anything in such a way that I think you would have found anything a if they were a question of they, would set out a no to two hundred and some parents and said there there was a murder that took place and trying to see if any of your kid saw it, I think we should get back a percentage. Kids that were like oh yeah. I saw

I I think you would have got that back anyways, because the age of the kid you're talkin about age range of three hundred and twenty five. You're talking about a range of three to five six. This is prime time for four kids to make up cases and child abuse that that has become. She really helped create some of the standards on how we document the stuff. So I'm not saying that she was right, but if she was so wrong, why would we adapt anything that she so I'm not saying that she was right, but if she was so wrong, why would we adapt or anything that she did in this trial that we didn't get a correct conviction to modern day practice

and I m on I'm unclear on that, as I thought it was, this was examined in and it was decided to change the way that we do it not because this worked well, but because it went so badly, I'm I'm not certain you. You could be spot on with that. I I don't know the details, here's my thing as I again I dont want to fall detectives or please her the prosecution for wanting to get a child molesters. That is the scum at the earth. I want them all to die all to burn in Hell,

they examined these patients and maybe they're wrong on a percentage of the patients. How can you explain all the the abuse marks or the scar tissues or whatever these medical professionals are saying- and I understand that it's it was early in the study of all this, but is it possible that there was study of all this by is it possible that there was was some things that were gone on. Well, there may be not in the preschool, but maybe at somebody's house. That's what I'm saying: that's what that's where you take the jurors words where the one juror said: hey it's it's my opinion that maybe one or two of these kids were in fact molested. But the evidence doesn't tell us who who was the perpetrator of that beyond a reasonable doubt

So, as you said, it could have been the you could have a child who was abused just by somebody else. There nothing to do with the school at all. In fact- and I didn't get into this, because I don't know how true it is, one of the accusers later The the mother changed. The story of the abuse, sir, was her boyfriend, and I not somebody at the school and I dont want get into that too much, because I don't know if that resulted in a conviction or what, but you go back to the along the way in in a secure something that I want to point out. I do believe that a lot of these people who were ultimately do believe that a lot of these people, who were all and the wrong and had bad. Judgment that being that a lot of the district attorney's office and a lot of the detectives and the judge, and so on and so forth,

You believe that a lot of them thought they were doing good work, that they were helping a bad situation, either Their intentions were good one. He had thirteen kids take the stand right there, yet have a judge who is saying: hey, let's reduce these, It was along the way I mean you have a judge who is saying: hey, let's reduce these charges, because this this cases get weird it doesn't make it's not making sense. You do have a prosecution team who is reducing charges who are letting accused go that they're dropping charges against it. We went from seven accused down to two right and we did have you know a detective? They came out and told the prosecuting team. The days offices before you bring any official charges. You need to take a look at this and you need to take a look at that because it this stuff is still to not check out in what I mean by that is the first allegations altogether right of judy job.

when contacting the police and saying hey. My son is having painful bow movements. Therefore he was sodomized well, when you dig a little deeper, you figure out. Did she not only accused re bucky twenty five year old re bucky of the pre school of as being one of the abusers, but she also accused her a strange husband as having sexually abused. boy re initially the boy says, and there was never any sexual abuse and all this is the same woman that would go on to tell the detectives that she saw re bucky flying and that her ex husband also raped a dog this this, for woman was mentally ill in needed. A lot of help in she was very paranoid, and I think she I think she was afraid

kids. That testified. Some of those have came forward now and said: hey. I don't think any of that stuff happened that I testified to. I saw at least two of them. The as adults came forward and said. Testified to made, I saw at least two of them, the as adults came forward and said I right whole thing out because of the direction of the doctors and my parents right, but we have other victims that have stated that. No, what I said then was true in an ice I still stand by that and that's where you wonder if we have that false memory syndrome that we were talking about earlier as quoted in the sand. cisco examiner who, like several other publications, had some great coverage than

The case in the examiner was much less bias than most of the papers at the time, but the quotes that I wanted to read are first from the first one is from peggy mc martin bucky of the accused. She said I've gone through hell and now we ve lost everything, and that can be more. That statement could not be more true. One of the jurors was quoted as saying I believe the children believed what they were saying was true. I could not tell if the children were telling what actually happened to them or if they were repeating what their parents told them, and we talk bit about the bias of the media. Well, the l a times in a in the ninety article by David Shaw, who was a pulitzer prize winning media critic for the l times, It's deeply reported series were often tough on his own newspaper by in regards to the

coverage of the where martin trials. He posed a very simple question: where was the scepticism in the media citing pact? elysium in hysteria that marked the early coverage of the mick martin case from the article, which is just a fantastic read. Any one can find it. Just google mick martin trial, l, a times Shaul wrote, media feeding, frenzies have come almost commonplace in recent years, but in make martin the media seemed especially zealous in part in large part because of the monster. bizarre and seemingly incredible nature of the original accusations, more than most big stories. Mc martinet times exposed basic food cause in the way they can. Cozy relationships, news, prosecutors, function, competitive journalism, laziness, superficiality,

Reporters off in a frantic search to be the first with the latest shocking allegation, responsible journalism, be damned a tradition that often discourages reporters from raising key questions if they aren't first brought up by the principals in the story now captain I watched, I had to re watch principles in the story now captain I watched, why had a real watch, because I actually wash it when I was much younger what The H. Bio movie indictment, the mic martin trial James? Would the grid James woods. So this came out and nineteen ninety five, and it also has one of my favorites Oliver stone- was one of the producers. An indictment actually won. a couple of awards. It want to prime time Amy's into golden globes and according to wikipedia. The film is cited,

as a watershed. In the shift of ideas about say, ten, a ritual abuse, recasting re bucky as a victim of hysterical conspiracy, rather than a child abuser. While again in this case to me, it still leaves questions as much as we go along. These claims were now claims of fantasy, really and hot air balloons and secret tunnels in and these devil worshipping games. I do not want to dismiss, or especially the thirteen victims that testified, and then the victims that still claim that abuse happened to them. I don't wanna dismiss that, but it's it's one of those cases where it it's a. U can't believe it on either in light. Ok, we get this initial claim and then we send out letters to hundreds of people. Were you think you're gonna get

at the end of the day, you have this good school. That was closed. You have teachers that their career was ruin. You have kids that possibly have false memories, a whole family. They went bankrupt, shy, childhoods ruined rate bucky, who spends over five years in jail in five years of his life, to honour them out and has his life was gone after this there is no going back right. You know he had to leave changed. His name he got married, has a son. I just want to leave you with this one thing, and I believe this was in the second trial as one leave you with this one thing, because there's so many questions here, the first question that was asked by the prosecution to re when he was on stan and the second trial was. Why do you like kids, so much

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