In new orleans, twenty twelve bruce catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist. Ass he stood in the. Parking lot where the address should have been? He was shot and killed. I'm dvd umbra join me for the newest season of counter clock, as I dive into the motive behind bruces murder. a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now, binge all fourteen epoch loads of counter clock season, five, wherever you listen to podcasts The anti connects an ode to part casts connected. change the podcast. You stream connect this news. Ten more minutes to dream, connect the shower lather up with the new sports talk, comedians or movie, reviews connect with that three. Our philosophy show change the drive into work and traffic, so slow connected dishes, two voices they glow. Thank you the geniuses of spoken audio,

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Nineteen year old Melissa wit disappeared from the bowling world parking lot on December first night. Eighteen. Ninety four: now her he was found about six weeks later. On yesterday's show we were able to go through some of the early leads in the investigation. What they were backing down and then the finding of her body, today we want to get into some of the suspects laden

It said that there were a lot of the level three sex offenders in the area, while there were also some very dangerous people that were probably in that area in december of nineteen. Ninety four and we'll get into that today. So, let's dive in the two major suspects, let's start with Travis crouch, I'm absolutely now there. There are quite a few suspects, some of them, and I can't talk about it as promising effects or what I'd like to touch on in there there's two of those and the first is travis dale, crouch and Travis is at our consolidated. He is currently in prison in colorado. We can touch touch on why, but he from the ozark area. In fact, he lived and worked at a church camp when he was a child. That was about a mile from where melissa wits body and then later at the time of her disappearance and death. Even

He might try to argue this point. We ve been able to prove that he, Was a carpenter at that same church camp, and it was about a mile from where her body was found in nineteen. Eighty four. So what is travis in prison for and how can we connect him to melissa wits murder? What progress have curly We have presented colorado for the right of a young woman. He met her at a ball. He talked with her in the parking lot was able to. I guess tat. Her coerced her to give him a ride somewhere. So they got the car together. He then forced her to a remote mountain tops. the middle of nowhere, were here.

Made her take off all of her clothes. He um raped her and he then I'm passed out due to a to an overdose of drugs at the time. Just a drug induced type situation and she knew they found. You know testimony that she gave her the court that tighter this she knew he was going to kill her, so she fled from the car completely nude and ran for her life and she was able to escape. He's currently in prison in colorado for that crime, and he did not the cause? of any interest in the militia wit case and tell several years after her body was found. Some people came,

word, I can't give a lotta details about who they were for their own protection, that they came forward to law enforcement and said that they had suspected Travis and law enforcement track travis down. We know that he was in the area, although he claims that he had left, the ozark area. Well, before you know, Melissa was kidnapped and murdered, but that was not the case. We have other witnesses to date that has given statements that he was indeed in town. You know Travis was a heavily into drugs, Aha, he had a history of violence, women, a war history, but violence against women. I've done a lot of investigative work in the Travis of life talking to a lot of people that he do. and that he was involved with, and he was the for raping women at gunpoint, knifepoint You know what he got away with a lot of different crimes, but this

overall violence, but you know what's interesting about him- is that he committed a fairly similar crime. Does the girl was taken to a remote location where she was, you know, raped and she escaped and she was totally nude, and you know I shared with you earlier. You know some of my theory about what could have happened with Melissa. Is that kind of lines up? And you know he knew the area very well, he it didn't work a mile away from her body. You know what her body was found. It didn't. You know we were later able from in a different way. This is it came for that he actually participated in somalia, activities in this very area warmer was his body was found. You said that he's committed some illegal activity in that area where her body was found, but I'm guessing with his well known drug use- and they were talking about dealings ox and purchasing drugs. In that area

certainly worth their drug dealing? So he actually grew marijuana plants near that very rock. Where molest his body was found. So yeah. That area meant something to him and he had a violent history of violent history against women. He lied originally about his whereabouts and when melissa went missing and um was murdered so yeah he he's he's. Definitely a suspect that you know. Law enforcement cannot rule him out. He does not cooperate, he hasn't cooperated with. even though we reached out to family and friends of his answer. We ve got a lot of work in looking at Travis, crouch and here he will remain as ever. Wants us back and tell him either you know, decides to cooperate or we can find evidence to prove that he did indeed kill

well a wet. So if Travis did this, this would be a stranger on stranger type. Crime quite possible, I he was proud that area he was in. That area is possible that you know he he had grown into her at them all here, just to put it, even more contact when he met the girl that he raped on that at mountain top in colorado, he met her at a mall in the day melissa when she went missing, she had lunch at the local mall with her friend. We know that the moles were one of Travis's favorite spots. I think it's feasible to think maybe he ran across more for that day. Maybe they had a conversation may b he followed her. That's that's completely plausible thing that could happen now here captain because LE presents a an interesting innovation here that potentially Travis could have been worse.

Watching at the mall in spotted so there I mean what better play If you have, if you predator and you have a type that you're you're hunting. What better play to go to if you're looking for someone, you know, eighteen nineteen year old twenty year old, attractive young woman you got you gotta them all, and maybe so much even just a type, but this is this: is your emma Now we ve seen this multiple times in and serial killers or syria rapist, where they cannot come up with a plan on their job then becomes too. secure that plan over and over and to get better at it, and we already know that he likes to pick up his prey from them all, and it's pretty simple too, because if you, if you go to them all, you find somebody that you, like you, follow them. If they,

in a situation where they could be easily compromised. Might you abduct them and you ve achieved your mission? but if that situation never arises, you just go back to them all the next week and repeat And this is something that if this was travis- and if this his m o. You know this wasn't the first day He went to the mall and this happened. This is something he probably did time and time again until he found a person did He thought he could easily overcome law and think about how many times we see it with with other killers again, where it's your developing, so you know some may lay gum. Ted Bundy will be a peeping tom first, you know, and so they are developing could have just been goin to the mall. For while you know just as less as a kid and an he disliked go on there. and following a girl round, and that became ok.

I want to follow or outside of the more not you I mean seems like he also needed beyond drugs during this time, so you can see that two with some like dahmer folks here yeah needed to be or wanted to be right where I guess there could be a debate there. The situation, though for me would be if this was travis and if, where he first encountered, melissa was in fact the more? We have to keep in mind that that he would have been not easily detected because We don't see any scenario where Melissa appears to be on guard for the rest of the day. She was not at the mall alone. You know we ve interviewed that person. Investigators have interviewed that person later they don't give clues any leads as to that aspect. So there person would have been where travel

seems to have been very atta control in his attack in colorado and you're you're right. That's because of the drug use, whoever If this war was his ammo and he was at the mall that day, he was in control at that time he would not have stood out for any reason. You necessarily didn't actually have to meet her. You know it could just been he she caught his eye and he does. Canada followed her at a distance. Ok, look down! That's the thing that you have to ask yourself. Is this just pure coincidence, guy that has picked up followed? from a mall before an hour victim here Melissa happened to be at the mall earlier that day right. He also has ties to the location where her body is eventually found. big question I have is, you know, we know he's capable of rate, because that's what he's been convicted of in colorado? What I need to be convinced of is how

Why are we so convinced he's capable of murder, because its alleged that he's come multiple rapes at gunpoint before what made that attack colorado different from the previous yeah, and how do we know that he was going to kill his victim in colorado? Well, I mean that's based on her testimony, so the only reason she got away from him just because he was also drinking and doing drugs while he held or in this car I mean he was raping her repeatedly, it was a violent attack, but he passed out and she was so certain that he was going to kill her when he woke up that, instead of trying to put her clothes on or even take them with her, she took off completely nude. She knew she couldn't waste any time to get away from him. That's her testimony. She escaped with her life. She was certain he was going to kill her and the attack was just so brutal and violent.

as as far as the other rapes. No, those are things that he was never charged for now. These are. These are rapes that occurred m two women who did not come forward to law enforcement for a variety of reasons. Perhaps a you know some examples. It has a I'm talking a little bit baker's herms because some of these, the men but I've been in touch with either to protect them because he will be prevailed at some point, and I want to be certain that it travis kraut here's this, that he is unable to go after the particular people that I have too, but you know they. These were women that were involved in some things that were a less than desirable. Does it mean that these are what happened to them. That's not what I'm implying, but those where there were that's what they told me. That's why they didn't got to law enforcement

As you know, he traversed heaping Travis was involved in a biker gang and some other active Where does very violent temper? He tried to kill us. I heard it was gay serves the time there though he had been arrested, pray that should every state did he. ever been in south carolina louisiana colorado arkansas, for you know anything from theft to trying to burn things down to. You know stabbing people, but he you know Travis has been described as someone that has no care at all for life. It doesn't matter to him and he's literally walked up to people and just and staff them. Or he he just he doesn't care I'm you know he wasn't a half bad looking guy all those years ago I mean that's just seen some photos of him. So it's easy for me to believe that a young girl might talk to him at first, flattered? It don't realize what they were dealing with, but he's he's a danger,

his predator, and I hope that he does not get cold, but it's looking like parole was quite possible for him it about. do we have any eye witnesses that would put Travis in the area back december of nineteen ninety four We do we have people that they continue to say that it was in the area. We can't place where he was for sure, and we know that he was arrested in in new orleans on new year's eve or day I'm not really sure how that worked out is. It happened it they or twelve or one what you know where that, but that's the next, the rest that he had, but we have pre reliable sources that have come forward all these years later. That say, oh no, you know Travis was here and they believe that they, the he took off to louisiana, show

shortly after m, the body was found because he was a flight afraid he was going to be blamed. Is is what some of these sources have told us, but as far as you know, being able to definitely prove that You know beyond a reasonable doubt, though we can't, but you know that people have come forward to kind of a paint, a picture for us that we're very confident that Travis was here, we're very confident he has people that were close to him. You know relatives that have I'm not told the truth because they want to protect Travis, and you know, there's only one reason why he was wise. I now I was, I dont you taken off to louisiana but he was really here because he was possibly involved in this crime. He has something to hide for sure, but he has not responded to any of my

requests for an interview, but he has not responded to any of my letters in prison. I have corresponded with a his mother and a sister of his, but we have not had any real cooperation. So you say that you know the Travis was arrested in Louisiana, either new year's eve or new year's day, but she wasn't found until the thirteenth, fill me in here. Are we saying that that after he was arrested, was released and potentially came back to arkansas. He was released after that arrest and he started traveling. We believe back through this area, as he made his way to to meet with some friends to possibly go on to his next adventure and I'm not sure if he went to south carolina first or he went straight to colorado, it's really difficult to track. But if you have to remember it's two decades later and you're dealing with people, the doubt really want to cooperate, he was held. Very long is the woozy.

Maybe a day for that arrest. What I recall so it does it mean that he came back and he was the one that move the body is possible. We must think about this that someone that was clear, to him knew that he had killed most aware, and perhaps they were overcome with guilt and they moved the body. I mean any anything like that as possible. You know I I can't say for sure. I can't say for sure the child was crouched so long as a wet, but he's an awfully good suspect has lied. Repeatedly. Has a violent history just to cooperate, so I mean it seems to me that he would want to help rule himself out that he has no desire to do that with this drug use. To I mean you have to wonder if he even knows that he did the crime possible possible, my guess would be if he spotted or at the mall. He has some good recollection of what took place leading

to getting her in his vehicle, meaning he would probably sober at some point yeah and he would recognize her face on the the news right, but I guess the thought here: That may be once more likely. Is that because of his intense drug use after day in alcohol use in a combination of both reports we got so intoxicated or high one day he told somebody either where melissa was where her body was or what he had done. Yes, that's my thought because he was he was heavily into drugs heavily into DR, though I think that cat temperament friend remaining. That kind of a drug addict. Is this the stairs he doing in prison for the rape of that girl in colorado and a travis Travis was walking chaos let's take a seat

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dot com, slash garage today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help. H e alpi dot com, slash garage, fine, or balance with better help. All right, we're back cheers may tease before we get back The madonna with her second suspect in the militia wit murder case. The first aspect trap Crouch seems to me that the story, the theory, would be this- that he would have gone. to the mall looking for potential victim that day came across Melissa, followed for a portion of that day until he saw his opportunity with her getting out of her vehicle in the end parking lot at the bowling alley and a pretty big time gap too. Approaches her as

Madonna said that this Travis may be an attractive young man that she may not have run off screaming from immediately right. He attacks. Are This is our into his vehicle dumps. Are a location takes her to a location that he knows well murders or their leaves the body there and then at some point in some kind of stupid some some intoxicated stew, for he tell somebody that he someone close to him either where she's located or what he has done so either. He moves body or so may that he told possibly moves the body yeah Potentially, he could have moved the body because he told somebody where it was, but you would think that if, if the whole point of it was concealing the body, you would move it to a location that we conceal it further, rather than putting it in a place where

be found right, but I think the theory on this is that are well and his drunken stupor or drug state. Maybe he did this and didn't mean to don't mean to bring her out into the open or again, if he told somebody that there it got to amend, figured hey. If I move the body, somebody will find it, but I'm ladonna. I think there's no coincidence that there happens to be this phone call where somebody seems to be, striving melissa, wit. and then the next day the bodies found, I don't think, there's any coincidence at all will escape into the seconds us.

Well you know. Larry Swearingen m was arrested in nineteen. Ninety nine m for the murder of Melissa, trotter Melissa, trotter was a nineteen year old community college student in Montgomery county texas. She met Larry swearingen by chance in a ca. You know it's like a convenience store, slash pizza, parlor type parking area where their conversation, or was is haste by a security camera. They talked for two hours on December. Sixth, in this parking lot, just in this little area on the outskirts of lake conroe in texas. Okay, so we know that he came across her. We know he was very intrigued by melissa trotter and according to testimony in in the melissa, trotter murder trial. He went back to work the next day and told some of his fellow electricians he's met. This really

cute girl and that she was going to meet him for lunch that day well, Melissa, trotter, set them up, didn't show up for lunch, and these same witnesses told the court in the murder trial that a which she stood him up. He became very angry. He really angry, so that was the seventh. We know that witnesses saw I swear. I just can't this of the community college in the german county taxes or December eight, the he sat and talked with militia and that they left together they gotten his vehicle, was the trotter was never seen again never seen again. She was found roughly thirty. Forty days later in the sand, use the national forest she had been strangled. She had been and sexually assaulted and strangled how long until they make an arrest. Unless swearingin, you don't he was arrested fairly quickly,

they were able to determine really quickly the hidden melissa trotter. They re able to pull that security camera footage. They were able to get you some information about that he was saying about melissa trotter and they were really able to tie the pieces together pretty quickly his wife at the time with later testify that when she came home to their trailer that evening that the trailer was it a disarray, you know he had brought melissa trotter back to the trailer. That's where its believe it. She most likely spurred his sexual advances in Haiti that raped her and strangled her with a section of his wife's pantyhose, and then loaded her up and dumped her body. The same he's the national forest. Of course he denies that whatever do we have against Larry swearingin in this case and we know that he has disputed that he was at work at the time that melissa trotter disappear. Well, I have been a lot of evidence- was described as a mountain of evidence against larry swearing, janet. I would

agree with that, as I have the court transcripts, the testimony against Larry werrington in the melissa trotter trial, so I've taken about a year and a half to do a case study on Larry swear. He did he killed melissa, trotter, there's no doubt, but as far as evidence, there was hair and fiber evidence found in his truck that belonged to melissa trotter. There was no fiber evidence, fiber evidence on her body that belong to larry swearing. Did you know he had a cell phone at the time it is paying right around the area where I'm he would have to had to have driven through to dump her body in the SAM Houston national forest. You know her pack of cigarettes were left behind in the trailer that I'm with the worry swearingin lived later. They were able to find the other sections of pantyhose that was used. You know he torn apart. Apart to strangle, Melissa

ashcan can swearing to taos paperwork that belong to the list of trotter was found all in this area near where Larry swearingin family lived. There was all found trying strung out across ST, so it's almost like it has been blown out of a trash can or some kind of some kind of area where I'm where he had hidden it. So that's just a little bit of the evidence is against Larry Swearingen and, of course, here His defence t try to paint a picture that he had been at work that he had picked his grandmother. Ask that you know he and militia trotter were this great brows, but you have to keep in mind. You know that there was a trotter today's prior there wasn't a great friendship with melissa trotter, because there are a lot of interviews with Larry swearingin out. There is different forms of media about this case.

And if you put them all together, he never tells the same story. I'm about melissa, trotter, it always changes. You know what one story is that they had a consensual sexual relationship for weeks. Well, that's not possible. He only knew her for two days. You know that they were great friends and I spent a lot of time together. Well, that's not true. If you only knew her for two days and she stood him up the next day after they met, I mean it's, it's a lot of a you know, smoking mirrors with larry's range and ass, his defence team, to try to create doubt in the minds of the general public that he did not kill melissa trotter. But the fact is, as he did, kill more trotter theirs no two ways about it. Were you able to speak with his ex wife? He has many ex wife- and I have spoken to two of them- they have had been very, very cooperative with me, these two

particularly- and I prefer not to use their names, but that these two wives have shared with me, how Larry tried to strangle both of them and anger that he was violet. He was volatile and they firmly believe the he killed, not only more so trotter, but that he also killed more aware, and I believe that he has killed where women are in agreement. I believe it Larry Swearingin is Assyria killer before we get into that, let's get into Larry's background To me, like he had traveled around a lot. He was some kind of car tractor or an electrician is that correct your crack? He traveled a journeyman electrician who both often travelled with his stepfather Joe martini,

and um they traveled all across the eastern united states, all kinds of areas you know he's being looked at by law enforcement in many different locations where there were young women found strangled, he's a prime suspect and in more than just the two cases, but what about his background? He had been in a lot of trouble in school. He had broken into, and you know his own high school and stolen some things he he was in trouble quite a bit for selling cars. You know breaking and entering into buildings. You know fighting just a variety of Let me just a career criminal is how I would describe Larry flank the funny thing here captain when we spoke with madonna, and we got into all this conversation about Larry, swearingin being a a key individual to look at as a suspect in the militia, wit, murder and abduction. The funny thing was we were speaking with her on the date that letter

swearingin was supposed to have been executed. We always have weird serendipitous things happened like yeah. He was supposed to have been executed on november sixteenth and do we Actually it was actually push pushed back before we had the conversation with her However, it was just kind of ironic that we were speaking with her about him on the very that he was supposed to have been executed so little. soon, as we get some better information onto. Why are they pushing back his execution? They continue to do that. getting they were pushing it back, maybe year, and then they shortened it to the point where their pushing back just a couple of months. If we continue what they ve been doing, he was opposed to be executed in september of this year than later november, so I'm guessing maybe they'll finally kill this guy in january or february of next year, but let's sent into why the hold up is it be

he's being looked at as a suspect, in other cases, other four cases. Or is it just simply the appeals process so the hold up in his execution. It has nothing to do with the other cases, though I will say this that Larry Swearingin was able to block into a phenomenal defence team. I mean he has the innocents project backing him now, in my opinion, in its is it only. The innocents project took him on because they wanted to see some of the laws trains in texas in that did happen because they took on his case right.

So the way ahead handle dna in places so that with the wind for them, but they worked very hard to create this doubt that very swearingin is guilty and it's a frustrating point for me personally, because you know, as a mentioned, there is of evidence that he killed also trotter. It's almost offensive to me that anyone would out of these linked to defend this man there. The crust of their argument is this: if they wanted additional dna testing- and that was part of the law change- that they had made adjusted applied, larry swearing just case, but they wanted additional dna testing on some things that were found in a melissa, trotters body of evidence under her fingernails, and I think evidence of the pantyhose and things like that. But let me did you? Why that is absolutely asinine? You know the jury with presented with this information,

The jury do going in to this case that there was a full dna profile. As a note I or known male found a daughter, melissa, trotters fingernails, so they do that. The jury saw that they also day that there was a full dna a file found on some other evidence and either as there would be the pantyhose that he used to strangle. The charter belonged to his wife case that there was an explanation for these things, so the jury knew all this event convicted him anyway.

because of all of the other evidence, but you know, of course, melissa. Trotter had another dna profile under her fingernails. She has been at school that day. She had done all kinds of things. The day before I mean she didn't meet up with Larry until noon that day, it's absolutely feasible that there would be another dna profile. I would be as that there wouldn't be, but you know that has just been the crux of their argument and they d hammer that hair or that home in the media. If I sound like I'm from I did about it. I am because the nineteen year old girl was killed and their dismissing the mountain of evidence. because they want to make an argument on something that the jury already looked at and said. Ok, I understand that it's been explained. We still believe that he killed melissa, trotter based on all these other things, but you know so where he has.

A career on death row of being able to weasel out of these executions? Because a key oiling motion the keep getting struck, by the higher courts, but this latest situation with to the delay of his execution had had to deal with two different things. One being that, unfortunately, the paperwork was piled incorrectly in texas with the wrong office and that's just an unfortunate event that happened so that delayed its execution. And then you ve got a couple that, with this this greatest and The scandal of worry swearingin, where he has been working with another death row inmates for who knows how long I had talked this death rower into admitting

the midnight hour before his own execution, that he was the one who killed melissa trotter. Fortunately, this I and his Davis Anthony shore had subconscious before it all went down and he admitted to officials what was happening in so that delayed anthony shores execution, but has also been created. This huge media circus around the irish were. Having issues one more way for Larry to delay his execution and in his mind, to try to create some kind of doubt where there is no doubt he kill no, it's a trotter. So basically Larry got this other gigantic pile of dog duty to confess to the murder of melissa, trotter and that actually postpone both their executions per year. The the

This system should go a. We see what's goin on here right that they should be pretty simple, Well, I mean you know the shore with known as Houston, tourniquet pillar. So here killed many girls in the same found fashion as of most trotter emotional. Acting as if they were strangled, but though he he's also believe have maybe some sort of trawler at. I don't know a lot about anthony shore, but I do know this We know that where he has been working that angle for many many years, because he's got some people that have been blogging for years about how there's no way possible that it with Larry.

swearing gin that killed melissa, trotter, and you know they put out the theory that it was Anthony sure. So this has been something that he's planning for a very long time, but anthony I'm, you know, has admitted to the things that he has done and I think that he's just he just got suckered by another death row. Eight. I think that's what happened. I think that we have maybe there was a part of him If you don't worry that he didn't kill, melissa trotters, though he was only to take that route for him. I don't know what kind of europe they cut. I really doubt that Larry's, where aid is very manipulative described someone whose very charming and he's a liar, and I think that Anthony fell for that

You don't I dont know Anthony shore personally, but I was. I would think that maybe maybe he does he had about is contents right before they could follow through with it. Maybe something told him that that was wrong that if he went through with this, they would be letting a killer out on the streets, because, if they did, Larry will does kill again. There is no doubt in my mind about that. It is hard to understand or to know what kind of relationship those two men have me they're, both on death row because they killed young girls. So You know the calibre of these people that we're talking about is off the greatest. So let's get into the connection between Larry swearingin and are victim Melissa wit. I believe the way that the story goes is that he was ultimately connected to this case, this cold case because of a piece of paper

or some type of no. There was found in his jail cell year correct. What happened is that authorities attacks has contacted the detective at the time, which is the taxes rider appointment, He said I don't know if you're aware of who larry swearing, it is, but without a doubt book in a cell turnover and it had. Your name stacy rider and it had Melissa wit name and it had the super first. Ninety nine for written down That's really how Larry Swearingin came to the forefront of the mines of portsmouth police, in that when I started looking into larry swearing and that's when it really started becoming apparent. That is quite possible that he killed more, where that he could be involved in any had to be looked at closer arise with the militia wit case. Larry, what it had been working in the area or had family in this area. Well, he does

family in arkansas a they live in Clinton arkansas, which is you know, roughly a couple of hours away from fort smith m. We do know that he was there in Clinton arkansas just days before, melissa Witt was killed because law enforcement was able to track. down a receipt where he bought a car park in Clinton arkansas. So we know who is in the area. I do. I can't put it back in texas until mid december late december, so he had plenty of time to kill militia, which I believe is quite possible that he was working in the area and law enforcement Look at that angle, however, at the time it was so little to go on, they didn't know that he was just a jury. and electrician It realised that he would be working under the licence of Joe Martinez so when they did their search,

anybody that had filled out a license or was working in you know the greater fort smith area. They looked under the name, Larry Swearingen, and so we're trying to recreate that search. Now, two decades later, it's really difficult if the records even exist, but we know he was here. We've got an ex wife that can place them here and she's, pretty confident that he killed melissa wet, but we have to have more than that before he could even be charged and that's something that we're looking at we've been in touch with a retired detective and one of the original detectives in the trotter case, who tells us that they did find a receipt on swearing gin but that there was in the four from the fort Psmith area in december of ninety four, that first we could decide provided for in the EU. They assure me they believe that he killed more with song, trying desperately to find that out

are you able to say what one of the ex wives said to you? regarding why He firmly believes that Larry killed melissa where she has the suspicion for a couple of different reasons, and- and why does that he and was very abusive to her and he had actually violently raped her choked her until she blacked out and dumped her in the woods he thought she was dead, and so you know in her mind. This is something he's very capable of doing, but also she at the time that they were together. She found quite a few women ideas on him- and he could explain It- he took them away from her and he dumped him in the woods there. Does she remember if one of those belonging to melissa with no, but that that really, that often

radar have you been able to talk with Larry. I have corresponded with larry swearing several times and he's not a fan of Ladonna humphrey and I'm not a fan of Larry and he is actually had his legal team serve me with. I think I met my forest cease and desist refuses to cooperate. You know will not talk about melissa with at all, not at all denies that he killed melissa, trotter and then my last correspondence with him. You know I just pointed out: hey You have family in arkansas when they were interviewed. They said that you used to camp and in hike in that very area where melissa body was found. Is that true? You know he doesn't respond, I know I reminded both girls were named melissa. They were the same age, same kind of physical appearance. You know both of their bodies were dumped in a national forest fifteen miles from the side of the abduction. Both girls were abducted in the same week exactly four years apart,

that, does it a ring, a bell, the serial killer, I dont know what does, but why you're both girls were strangled is, is it this is due to the closure for me, melissa, which had a watchdog from her her murder or stolen, it was a mickey mouse watch, melissa, trotters watch was stolen from It was a mickey mouse watch, her killer Sola. That was me they were part of the entire interview right, and I'll tell you. Why did you now as a mickey mouse? What if anybody followed my good instruction, many many months ago and picked up one of our recommended reading books. This was the ah called a good marriage by stephen king. It's not a true story. It's a fictional story. Nobody listens to you. If anybody picked the up they know. Why that I found that parts interesting when when she says that this is all here say by the way we have to throw that in their because its

a telling from one person to another than to us. We don't know if this is in fact true hearsay your say the portion where she said that the wife one of his ex wives of, Mary found several driver's license in their home from young women when confronted about it. He has no answer. He confiscates them and then he supposedly summer or discards of them in the woods somewhere by that's it exactly what happened in a good marriage, though has been as away on work, she's law, king the wife is looking for something in the garage and she comes cross, a little heidi hole and inside their several driver's license. I girls that had gone missing in the surrounding stay And it's exactly like a case that we covered, which happened in the attic, not the garage and the dark past

that's right, the attic they felix veil case and I think the people that were running off of him, I believe, found the box. Yet they found some some old items of one of his very likely victims. the thing that we should. We should I want to mention this because we are talking about stephen king would talk about storytellers, you note the the mickey mouse watch the two victims that happened to be named, melissa, they're, the same age, their abducted in the same week four years apart. Some of that seems a little storyteller ish. You know it seems a little icing on the cake. I don't oh, that that a killer, that's that's, attacking two women that he would have you know he's a very likely situation that, if Larry did kill both of these policies likely would not have known. That's not why he killed them.

He's driving around looking for the next melissa. I agree with you, but we do have. We do have evident that he met first melissa if he met melissa with. I can't writes a tricky story because he was convicted of of melissa trotters case, but that was actually after melissa wits so we have evidence that he met melissa, trout beforehand, I'm guessing that, if, if this is a victim in his Emma would conduct suggest that he would have met Melissa wit prior to the. the attack possibly could have had some kind of interaction with her in advance, but I think that- that were kind of losing track of here in this story is why really is tying larry swearingin to this case, keep in mind the her name is found written melissa, wits name is found written in a note book of his as well as you- and I were talking about this as well as the detective,

slow down a little bit, so he's he's in a different state he's in another state. This is like a decade later: death row yeah and they fine ain't that fine her name and not just her name but the detective name. I mean I just keep going back to the fact. that there is no reason for him to have her name. Written on any of his property at all yeah. It's pretty that's pretty mind blowing so fill us in on the current state of Melissa, which case yeah. The case is more active now than it has been in years and I'm you know we work daily with law enforcement and you know I just talked to the to you- know the detective this morning and you know they allow us our team to run a tip line and that tip line is pretty And then we share that information on immediately with law enforcement and the other they're following up on tat all the time- and I did,

leave it's just a matter of time right now. My focus, you excuse me foley on trying to get very swearingin rule and are ruled out. The boys executed once is executed. We may never know all right, Documentary might come out spring, but there are still negotiating that so once we know something will let you know well, and if you want to find out the release day day, will be making updates. Guarding that on the website, which is who killed, missy wit, dot com or their facebook page who killed see wit. The thing that I'm interested in seeing here captain is what more information can we find out in the documentary, because I think that, even even though

forthcoming, as le was an eye so appreciate her time with us in her keeping her efforts in all of her energy working on this cold case, because I don't know if there's the everybody picked up on this, but during the court Their interview, one thing that we learned is that unfortunately, both melissa, wits parents who passed away since she was killed, so they didn't get to see justice for their daughter were sometimes you wonder you know. Cover a lot of these old cold cases Sometimes you wonder that when the relatives of these people start to pass away and once they to fade into memory. Does the case itself fade into memory as well? Is there anybody out there working the case? Does anybody still care and it's great see somebody like Madonna, focusing her efforts on this old cold case

working on a documentary. We ve seen movement on cases because of documentaries and because of podcast. So it's very interesting to see what their eye think I was trying to read between the lines there. I think there's some more information that that will be released when that documentary comes out I also want to include it but he wants to do heard this case and has information that they can offer. You can submit tips at the who killed, missy wit, dot com website. There's instructions there on how to do so or there's a phone number that you can or to submit a tip in that's for seven nine to one nine three nine three, all right do have a recommended reading for the week we do this week. We are recommending convenient, suspect and seeing here little coincidence, tie into what we covered this week in last week and just haven't. We are two cases back to back. We can play in this. They have

they take place in december of nineteen. Ninety four: we wanted to cover those what we did with the want sims last week in the militia with this week, well that spired me to come up with this recommended reading its from a cold case from December back and nineteen. Ninety four that took place in pennsylvania, and I should Say a cold case, because this one has been technically solved as far as the books are concerned, but you can t by the title- convenient suspect, there's a lot of you while there that wonder if they have the right suspects. So if you're interested in this pickup convenient suspect a double murder, a flawed vested in the railroading of an innocent women- and this is by tammy mall and you can find all of our recommended reading on our website. True crime grudge dot com and it's click on the recommended page can also your crime garage that come. We have our blog there as well as our store page, so check all of that good stuff out,

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