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bunch of america and were so far behind, but I is the longest one we ve received so far That's what she said. So this it was by J bar one. Two, three hey guys great shell, perfect makes of off the topic. Shenanigans and serious breakdown stuff on each case, because definitely have the chemistry thing down reminiscent of the young uncle jesse and uncle joey, tanner or mad madden. Some are all days anyways so just playing? good old guys. I hope you stick with it. Keep havin fun. Most importantly, stay pals five stars all day. J bear one two three day you so much on laptop jail step we have one from is easy stir. I am still unsure with a cut of your jib means, but there's killing the game really great podcast super chill funny, dude that no their stuff and them they use is also a

after the business yeah so grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime, the open catholic child killer case, one of the most notorious unsolved cases in the country I grew up. You took your baseball. Bat went down. The field played all summer, no street lights on nobody worried about where the kids went to the park cause. The loss of his brother was the first victim of a serial,

more killers, now known as the oakland county killer. I can remember, and the kids can remember, sitting at the kitchen table: going to him of anybody trying to become operating a drop everything he had and run, he was abducted and that's the last I saw or heard of him since days later, TIM and his skateboard were found in a roadside, ditch his body

wash his clothes brush his fingernails clean. He had been sexually assaulted, the fourth and final victim of a child killer. You don't know how to analyze yourself and much less. How to talk to your kids about it. Life goes on the open. Carry child killer case is one of the most notorious unsolved. Murder in the of life goes on trial, trial, trial, trial, many parents want to give their children extra academic support, but it can be overwhelming an expensive to get the right resources. I EL offers all the learning tools. Your family needs on one side from pre k to twelve grade, making it simple to identify exactly what

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yourself, a solid in supporting this show, get pay. Pal hunting for free at Joe honey, dot, com, slash garage, that's join honey, dot, com, slash garage. The oakland county childcare A case took place between February fifteen nineteen, seventy six and march sixteenth. Nineteen seventy seven now. Originally there was a thief that there might have been seven victims nowadays, the thigh is it there were only for victims The killer was also nickname the baby sitter, because all for victims reportedly were bathe before they were dumped. Now we say the the newspapers say dumped, but in fact there was another aspect to this case: these victims, weren't necessarily dont know they were laid out. Neatly somebody placed these children, after they had killed them near homes

or near businesses, where the bodies would be found shortly after and when I say the laid out neatly well, they were laid down on their backs with their arms crossed and most of the victims appeared to have been bathe and they were all dressed wearing their clothes, that they had gone missing. It Some people have even stated that the clothes were washed or hand or pressed so somebody had laid these victims out carefully to simply dumping them. Another reason why they might have used the term baby, sitter or the baby sitter was did these victims were held. Had been missing for four to nineteen days and during this time period it appears that they were well taken care of their well fed. So that's help that the nickname the baby sitter comes about This all took place in south eastern michigan as we

in the late seventies, now the first victim mark steavens was twelve years old. He was found in a parking lot of south field office building on Sunday february, fifteen nineteen. Seventy six mark left his other at an american legion hall and he walked home with the idea that he would walk home you he had a television show or television movie that he wanted to watch and he walked, by himself his home was only about three quarters of a mile from the american ledge. arcs mother believes that mark never made at home that night. There was no evidence at the home to show that anything has changed since the time that she had left the home mark was found thursday february nineteen. The police believe. that he was strangled and they believe that he was strangled some time the day before that he was found now again when he was found, he had

wrote burns on his neck in his hands and some reports. Rope earns on his feet as well One strange thing that they found in this case was there was a funeral for mark a few days after he was found, and you know when you go to these funerals, you can sign into the funeral book and often there's a prayer hard or a funeral card in remembrance of the person that you are there to pay your respects to, later they would find a funeral card at the spot. Where marks body was found. Originally That could mean one of two things. It could mean that the killer Molly went to the funeral, collected the card and in a way- to taunt, the police or taunt the victim's family went out of his way in place a funeral card where mark was found or could simply mean that a family, member or friend, or somebody that attended the funeral with you know with now nefarious

reasons at all took the card dropped it in remembrance of mark. You know you see. Sometimes you know, victims of crime sean on and on a highway or street. You know you see the crosses that people will put up in they'll, put up flowers from time to time, so not terribly unlikely, but but the thing here is I've gotta believe that this might have been something more negative, something a little more wicked. Then a family member, a friend or somebody. They had good intentions or somebody that wanted to remember mark because I would have to be Leave that this would be an avenue that the police would investigate the day. Would ask the family members that they would ask the people that attended? They would ask the people that sign into the funeral book. If you know, did you take a card there in place it there.

the next victim was Jill Robinson. She was twelve years old and she went missing Wednesday December twenty second nineteen. Seventy six, She left her home after a short argument with her mother. There was something about they were preparing for her, and you know you as apparent you know things going on. You just come home from work. You got kids to attend to you got dinner to prepare an from a reason jill did not want to help. She was not in the mood that night and they go To a brief argue, and jill, lift left on her own, Now she went out the front door and her mother thought that she would just be. She would go out fine jill sitting on the front porch she gave us. time to cool off and she went out front porch and Joe was not there now. This did not cause immediate along. two gels mother, because her next thought would be that job

would have gone to her fathers home. They were divorced and on occasion you know she was very close to her father and it struck me that more than one occasion that jill had probably left the home after an argument and gone to the fathers house as a bit of a rich retreat. Now your mother ends up going and driving to the fathers home and the father, not seen jill that evening. Jos mother, would report her missing to the police shortly after visiting the fathers home now, The police immediately thought of her as a runaway. I dont believe for to be a runaway will get into that a little bit later, but she she left the home and she on her. She had her backpack and she left in her on her bike, which was a will, give a brief, encryption of the bike here? The brand name was a high speed brand bike size, twenty inch frame, it's a purple bike with chrome, fenders and a white bananas

now, after some coercion from from the mother from jewels mother, She was able to convince police that she was in fact missing that she would not have run away and put Stu shortly afterwards start looking for now there were some sightings of jill after she went missing on. Same day, she was seen on a bike by a friend around seven thirty p m, and now this was near the tiny tim family hobby centre now the next day december. Twenty third She may have been seen early. that morning at a place at all night business. I know I am given on the business later that day, police cover the bicycle. This is still early in the day. This is they find the bike less than one mile from her home. Now years later, a witness would claim that he and a friend actually found the bike before police did now. They claim that we found the bike near vince

a road and it was propped up against a tree they rode the bike around for a little while until they left it. Where would later be found by police jewels body found sunday December twenty sixth at six, a m this was founded, her body was found by a motorists the motorists who had found her body called it. An end was never interviewed. This person never seen so, whoever called in the body by the time the police arrived on the scene. This purse was no longer there or they. Probably All in from the scene, the Thank you captain. I mean that's. How they report it? You know that it was called in from the scene but not actual anti, because, nineteen. Seventy six, the person who whomever found jill's body, probably into the nearest pay phone called police from their. However, I do It's gotta be pointed out that I think that its red and weird that the person that found the body is not present by the time that the police arrive, aren't noted,

police, determined that jill had been killed at the place that her body was found. She was killed by a shotgun blast to the face she still wearing the clothes that she had been wearing the night that she left home. She still wearing her backpack as well. Now they determined that the shock and blast was from a sixteen gauge shaka. This type shot gun is typically used by hunters police place, the time of death as queen three a m in six a m that day now. How did they come to that conclusion? Well, it had started snowing that day at three p m and I picked up between three, a m and six a m now police. What and up using the snow fall to help determine the time of death. there was no evidence of a struggle. There was no evidence of sexual assault. Jill had two books in our backpack that day when she left her home when she was found, these books were not present in the backpack, of course,

These two books could be used as evidence. So, let's go through these books. Real quick the first one is a nancy, drew mystery book. Well, this could be avoided. because it is unique, because this was a book from a library, so it would as you know, the library card in it and in such at the time. The second book I was a little house on the prairie book in its believed to be first edition and this would have had an inscription inside of the front of the book from family member of the jail robinson family, the third victim christine metallic She was ten years old town, she begged her by her mother to go to the store she wanted to go the store. She went to pick up one of those teen magazines. You know that would have the you know. The the bands popular at the time or whoever is popular with the teens. Ozma it was done ass, many exactly where other yup

So this was Sunday january. Second, nineteen, seventy seven! She went to the store to pick up this magazine. He went to the seven eleven on twelve mile road and the clerk there stated that she in fact had seen Christine and she had Christine, did purchase a magazine. Nineteen days later on january, twenty first, a mailman jerry was me, found christine's body on it hank met near a roadside. Ditch she added smothered with now other signs of trauma. She had all been covered in snow just like the last victim footprints. Entire tracks found at the scene and imprint impressions were taken. Clothing on the body was in fact the same clothes. They Christine had wearing when she was last seen the fourth victim timothy king wednesday evening march six

nineteen seventy seven timbered a little bit of money from his sister to go, purchase some candy at the hunter maple pharmacy. Now he left the home. with a skateboard in hand and a football and it was rumoured that he went there to get candy and also to ride his skateboard in the parking lot. The store clerk confirms. Seeing tat too left the store through the rear door. That leads to a dark in parking lot. Pharmacy was about three blocks from his home, so this is a terribly far from TIM's home tim had bought. It had brought his skateboard, as we had said with the intention, probably playing in the parking lot afterwards, an eye witness. Would to have seen a boy matching kings, description talking to a dark haired man in a blue gremlin with a white stripe. What is a blue gremlin? That's a small vehicle, some pride better known as the garths car you're, exactly right from the wanes world movie wanes world and then member the low licorice thing yet to spend.

And strangely enough, there's was blue in the movie as well, but they had a fire. They had the flames on the flames, yeah exactly to retain body was found march. Twenty second determined the thames death had occurred. Some time between six and eight p m in the cause of death was suffocation. now. One thing that they have they have figured out was that he ate about two hours before his death. had been sexually assaulted and his hands and feet appeared to have been bound let's go into the eyewitness accounts of what this person saw. Now we mention the dark haired man near the gremlin. Supposedly, they had seen this man talking with ten and the man. Standing in front of his car friends of tim's war looking for tim that night he was supposed to hang out with these people the friends of tim when they arrived. They could not find him.

But they claim that they did see a blue gremlin parked in that same parking lot later that evening, so so people have speculated a few different things that may be. This blue gremlin was not part of the case and should have been. Part of the investigation, because, because there seem to stay there, all night, it seem to have been there for hours after ten with moscow. Those are considered to be the victims of the oakland county childcare As stated earlier, we had said that there is one. Once was suspected seven victims. Now these were despite disproved, there was a couple victims. One them in particular, and we don't need to go through these in too much detail, but one victim, and in particular somebody had end up confessing to that crime and is serving a life sentence in in prison, one of the other victor. Was a girl sixteen year old girl. Now she,

found very far away. All four of the victims that we just spoke about were found in oakland county, or very close to, oakland, counting, one of whom was actually left just across the county lie, and then the third victim that was suspected to be part of this, but some people have tried to disprove. It is a victim that that thankfully survived- and this is a case that place in nineteen. Seventy four. So the other three victims, that we just mentioned there a little bit outside of the parameters of the victims, the for victims that we have just discussed. Can you, just run down that lists of the four again real, quick. Yet so basic de. We have, we have some weird things here: captain don't we we have for victims, We have two boys and two girls yeah. The two boys sexually assaulted. They built

sexually assaulted, with an object both of the boys had binding marks on their hands eat and one of them even on the neck right now, I would be suspicious that of improbably had bindings on their net, I was only reported in one case, the two, rolls were not sexually assaulted and so talk about the boys, real quick one of them was strength. one of them was suffocated. The two world vision which is very similar. Yes, yes and the two girl victims One of them had been strangled and one of them had been shot in the face with the shock the other one doesn't doesnt line up too well with the other three to me, but the strange here is, you know, quickly. We see bodies would be dumped in a field or in a ditch somewhere, it's kind of a quick. You pull up your car, I guess, and you toss them out of the

or drag them to wherever, and yet you want to get out of there. But the strange thing here is that whoever placed these bodies they placed them out neatly they laid them out flat, They they they posed them in a way that their hands would be crossed across their chests like this. Okay and while the the the the listeners can't see you that's funny are you crusher arms and an yes? Yes, that's it that's held the for victims were found. They were we're all places way, and they were all they all appeared to have been clean, meaning like their their clothes were clean. And some of them even claim that their close look to have been pressed neatly asked in washing before media would suggest that all for victims were bathed beforehand, and let's talk about this for a second theirs,

Why would you bathe victim now? There's there some argument whether the victims were bathed before being killed or just after being killed. Now one thing that, has been done and seen in other cases when people were bathed after they are killed, you use extremely hot water not only wash away fibres and things like we had talked about in other cases, but it will, so wash away fingerprints. It could be left on the body itself. They can actually find fingerprints on a body if the He hasn't been washed correct in, but dick thing here is hot water, very hot. Water will wash away the fingerprints some things that points out to me in the manner that the bodies were left is almost shows signs of remorse. You know that victims were posed in a degrading position. They weren't left

naked on the side of the road somewhere they were left in places that would be found. The bodies would be found soon, while why would somebody that is experiencing remorse want to leave body where it would be found soon, is so that bit one deteriorate it wouldn't call further. degradation to the victim or or despicable appearance. When the victim is found, Another key piece of evidence that could point to who did this stuff would be that the victims were held for four to nineteen day. the short the shortest length of time that a victim was held was four days in the longest nineteen, so somebody would have to have the means to hold of and for that amount of time they were all killed shortly before being placed where they were found. In fact, one girl was shot on the scene by the time we got to the fourth victim timothy, king

The police were aware that they were searching for some one and they had already told people told media that they believe that they. looking for one person who had killed the first three victims, so everybody's sense are heightened everybody's on awareness. Everybody is on guard rate, but Timothy's no goes missing and why oh, he is missing before his body is found and during the time that he held captive, his father does do a press conference and it was brought asked on the all the news channels and I imagine that the thames would be killer. Probably this news conference there was a letter that was printed in the detroit news. Now this letter was from Marian came and she wrote She had hoped the Timothy would come home very soon. She hoped they went once he came home. She wanted to serve him. His favorite meal kentucky fried chicken

we had pointed out that the police figured out the Timothy had eaten head a meal two hours before he was found an actually. They found his stomach stomach contents were that of I'd chicken, let's get into the suspects, because they are a ton of suspects in this case, let's first time about the gremlin guy. Now who is a criminal guide? This is the guy that was seen standing in front of the blue colored grimly with the white stripe along the side of it, and he was. talking to timothy king now we say he was talking to timothy king, but keep in mind the eyewitness said that He had seen someone talking to a person that ass, the description of timothy king, so it could have been any twelve year old boy could actually have nothing to do with this case, but is a lead in. It was one that they followed up on very thoroughly

and when I mean very thoroughly is it they interviewed every person in oakland county that owned a blue colored gremlin. Apparently they must not have come up with anybody out of those people. There was nobody the out there that it set anything off. Any bells are ringers offer, alarms off in the investigators and detectives eyes, because we have not heard much these guys sense, Then they were still looking for that blue colored gremlin. But that's that suspect from the eyewitness description. Was a white male. Twenty five to thirty years old, approximately five foot eight to five foot ten. Fifty two hundred and seventy pounds this was up some with an athletic, build now. gonna give a bit of a caviar here. ex thing that they say is a fair skinned man

now that it was also reported at one point that this was a dark complexion man, but the The description that carries weight. The description that has lasted the forty years of this case is of a fair skin man with dark hair. It was like a layered hair cut like us cut the, but we also saw this and ah the phantom killer case, where it was, white, male or blackmail. And not only that the son of SAM there were. There were multiple accounts, of whom thought was somebody that was in the area of the time grant and they were varied. Descriptions of such now the profile this person fbi profile of this person would be so. Buddy that what had been living or associating closely with another person that he was acquainted with in oakland county.

Now so thus think about that. For a second there saying this person had either lived in oakland county or was living with somebody else in oakland county, so there. Is immediate suspect is suspicion that there were two people involved or to people Would have known what was going on This is somebody that would have worked, lived or socialized in the area here, so had in employment that allow him freedom of movement against Then we saw on the ema halibut case exactly exactly they also support system. That this is a person that lived in an area or lived in a home provided him the opportunity to keep a person without creating suspicion. So this within the neighborhood This also would have been a person that may have changed his physical appearance to over the course of the investigation which

makes was sense because a minute they're like we're looking for it's three very handsome sexy voice. Captain you don't with a beard. I'd probably you don't change, might be I changed my voice. Way up high like this yeah, that's what I do. your download, like this captain is enjoying the bells to hearted ale. I know you love a buddy and am also enjoying some red stripe as well. Captain do you want to hear suspects by name chair. Alright, let's call these call these mothers out, ok, well, one suspect we're going to go ahead and cover is john engaged This is somebody that is known to most everybody out That is why, yes, this A very well known serial killer. They lived the state of illinois, during the veto during the nineteen seventies, He was involved and

situation where he had lord young men to his home and handcuff them and did different things to them and it The long and short of it is that they ended up finding about thirty bodies in or around his home, they mostly in his crawl space. Yeah, I'm in the garden summoned the yard. Now the thought was there are rumours that people could prove that on when Gacy was in the area. At the time there was even an eye witness that said that he saw timothy king speed the two men outside of a vehicle now. This was not a blue gremlin vehicle, not have a description of that vehicle, because the eyewitness did not provide one. However, with eyewitness did did say was it. He was talk. Timothy king was talking the two men one of em up, to be a younger man and the second man appeared to have this. Appearances, John wayne, Gacy

again. There was a heavier set guy, yes and again act in all actuality, the description of The man that was seen at the gremlin is not terribly off from John. We you see other than the fact that they dade label him to be about a hundred. Fifty two hundred seventy pounds, John wayne, easy was heavier than that. Its unclear Dna evidence that they have in this case whatever dna evidence they're holding onto and, however they gained it. They compare that too John wayne Gacy dna, and This was three years ago. He became a suspect to you. Years ago he was cleared, they can, here the dna and it was not a match which is now surprise to me, because the ammo of this case does not have anything. It's not even Nearly the same m o the john Wayne Gacy had in illinois. Ok

that eliminates ones aspect so eliminated one who's. Next, ok, then, one goes by the name of Alan. We don't have last name. This could a fictitious name and all glee hood, it is a false name, but Alan what took place was in april of seventy seven there is. I that was involved in the investigation. His name was doktor. Bruce Danton Bruce dando, received a letter from a man calling himself Alan Alan claim that, was a roommate of the man who of a man who he called frank task force officers Ben hundreds of hours trying to locate Helen they used clues. Did found within the letter in the Alan claim that he is a sado master, kiss slave of his roommate frank enough. He claims that Frank is the oakland county child killer and he wrote

pleading and because he was fearful and remorseful at what he had seen and what he was involved that he also felt that was in danger. He also el felt suicidal. Why hope he said suicidal. I mean, if you are involved in these about crimes Alan wrote that he accompanied frank on many road trips that they were seeking boys. However, he stay He was never present during any of the abduction of the boys also claim that he had helped watch wait, wait hold so he sand that they went. driving around looking to abduct boys, yes, but he was never around when any abduction happen again by claiming to be a Saito to kiss slave to this person- frank so he's going to have to if he is a slave, I'm guessing he's going to have to do or go along with whatever frank wants to do so,

Maybe he will willingly or unwillingly, went along on trips looking for boys, trolling for children and but he would claim, is that he was never present during any of the abductions. He would all claim that he did help watch some of the children now now. Should point out that Alan only references boys ever references, boys and girls so describe frank who claimed was the oakland county child killer? as a traumatized person had spent time in the vietnam war and that he added to that Frank wanted to gain revenge again It's middle america and the rich america for sending him off to war. Okay, so how you get Baca at middle middle america and rich america is you're in Detroit and then you go after kids just that That sounds like a real winner to me. As

police spent hundreds of hours trying to put together clues on how they could figure out who this Alan pershing was. They never actually figured out who he was now. Where did this lead, though? This doesn't stop here. What ended up happening was, after this, Alan person believe that he again the trust of doktor bruce dando. He ended up calling the doktor arranged for them for meeting now he to have an agreement before he was willing to meet the doktor and, agreement was that he was going to provide photographic evidence that this frank person was, in fact the child however, he wanted immunity. He wanted written immunity from the governor of Michigan. He would. be brought up on charges because he was gonna help solve this case. He was gonna bring the killer to justice.

he he would have got immunity, and then he was said always me by the way. Well, goes down awfully strange because is weird so they decide. I don't like this guy that well Alan I don't like Alan either suggest to the a psychiatrist doktor data that he would meet, him at a gay bar now. The name of this gay bar was the pony, cart bar This was a genuine pony, cart. Barn, cart. Bar and this was in detroit in the palmer woods neighbourhood now the way that the cops did this is too under cover police officers. They accompanied doktor dando. Or this visit without they arrived at, the bar, the the under cover officers, sat at the bar wild while doc They sat at the table. they sat, they waited and waited no

ever arrived to the table with doktor dando, however, during the course of waiting. A man had walked up to the two detectives said hi to both of them. greet them by name, but he just said hello: he ordered a drink for the two detectives. He was drinking himself. He gave them a nod took a swell. His glass said the glass on the bar and he walked out. There Therefore, a little while longer waiting for this Alan character to arrive. No, ever arrived, the very next morning. The police officers are giving their report to their superior disappear. Your remind them of the description of the man that was standing in front of the blue gremlin. was seen with timothy king and both of those under cover. Officers said that the man had seen that had the had ordered

drink for them fit that description to a T. Right, but that descriptions pre vague anyway Yes, it is a little vague whose next suspect is a man that is referred to as Helen's John now going to take you through a story that place a ninety. Ninety want and for twenty six of ninety ninety one, there is an unknown man, we don't have his name he's anonymous. He lived at one, I'm in the oakland county area he decided in. This is pretty much detroit right. Yes, just north of detroit. Ok, he decided to return home many years after having lived there, his mother had passed away and he wanted to take his children to the place it he grew up and let them experience abroad of their christmas break in the area that he grew up so during that visit.

decides to meet up with an old neighborhood friend. The old man who'd friend insists that they should go to a fresh, is big boy and have coffee, okay, so the freshest I loved the fresh. so they go to fresh as they have coffee and they're sitting in a booth. Now there is a booth that is directly but hind, let's say his friend, so his friend is facing him he's facing his friend and behind them. There is a man and a woman sitting at a booth. Now he's trying to listen to his friend they're, trying to catch up on old times. And during this time he cannot help but be d drafted by the conversation that he's hearing from this man and woman that are sitting behind his friend, the conversation that is taking place now he's hearing bits and pieces Ok, roaming, the the cashier is behind him and everybody. It's been a fishes. Big boy knows that you don't pay your server. You get your checks, your server, you walk up to the cashier, you pay there and there is usually a little bit of chit chat. That's

of how was your meal blah blah answer. He's got that going on behind him, but in front of him he sees. Back of a man? And you can see the front of the women and their engage in this conversation in these hearing the man talking about how he had abducted children or an how he had killed chilled and but wait. Wait hub Please go back. Ok, so you're out afresh is big boy I mean I don't know what you order. The big boy, big boy sandwich, maybe order there that I always get it boy say and then sometimes you can get the big boys sandwich, salad bar, that's always so. I get the salad bar, but I always get the big, but that's a rich man move, but then you over you're, a guy talkin about that he abducted children. but he I mean this- is a day after christmas, so you Take this on a perspective, ok

This is a man that in a public place, you wouldn't assume that you would hear somebody talking about something that crazy. He would. You would assume that you miss Miss hurt him. Yes, at the same time, he's trying to listen to his friend in he's got the disruption of the cashier and things behind him. At some point, I want you to tell your friends use go well, thing that he noted about the conversation was will not necessarily about the conversation, but the interaction that he had with his waitress was the waitress jokingly, said to him? You know how they they give you back, then they would give you a menu that was like what they would give you place mats in the menu but the place mats, and they have those there, like paper placements that are thrown away afterwards. and she had jokingly said to him here. You know she placed the place mass down in front of him before he had heard this conversation. She had jokingly said to him that the whole your place map, because their disappearance,

that will come into play later. Yes, so again, he for years, this woman, a man talking about this story. Of the man who had abducted children and who had killed children now this I witnessed, and we don't know his name again he's anonymous. He doesn't. Oh that their specifically talking about the oakland county, child killings. Right right, for all. He knows that. There's all king about some fictitious staffer renew notes are talking about a podcast okay. So it goes this kind of goes away this. This is just day in the life of this guy. This is just one thing that happened to this guy one day, while he happened to be visiting his old neighborhood Many years later, he said at home, watching america's most wanted an honor Erica most wanted? There is a woman named Helen dagger now

and agnor is on America's most wanted in. She is telling a story about a guy named John. This is We come up with the name. Hellenes John John is a man who was a friend a friend of a friend of hellenes and Helen lived in the oakland county area She claims that she had met this man, many many years and ninety ninety one after the killings and he an odd man. He had some strange behaviors and things like that, and we They had met she I told him that did she always wanted to write a book? through crime book, and she wanted to write a book about a serial killer. well, John, had jokingly, told her, maybe should go out for dinner sometime in may. You'll meet a serial killer, or maybe I could oh you about a serial killer of well,

The wind win this show comes out on america's most wanted now tips coming from the things that she sang, however, move people most people, think that she's a cook it almost that they don't put any validity and the things that she sets are some kooks other. However, this this man who win to that same fishes, big boy in ninety. Ninety one right he is he's over hearing the conversation this, report to Helen gagner would later report right, so crazy. Okay, so who is John as we said it's a friend of a friend of this Helen downward path and joy on would claim that he killed the the four children. He would also He would draw maps for her, and- He was drawing the maps on place on the fringes. Big boy place, bans on the man one either they throw away exactly now Helen kept.

All of those maps and she presented those two police and she presented those on america's most wanted Helen. Agnor. She did not delay dally she This conversation with this John person on some twenty six. Ninety ninety want to see twenty seventh. Ninety ninety one she is at the police department. Turning in the maps that she received from John now I've seen pictures of these maps. These are EL, drawn maps there very detailed with a lot information on now. This non person. Helen knows his last name and gave the last name to the police officers, she had had multiple conversations with john about these things, and she also told John that you know what I don't believe you

I don't believe that you are involved in this. You sound to me like a guy that is just making up a story or somebody that just wants to be involved in something that was now keep in mind. This was a big deal as we heard in the trailer. This is one of the most famous answer when the most famous cold cases. In u S, history, also at the time back and nineteen seventy six nineteen, seventy seven was the largest, it was the largest police, invest investigation at that I'm in u s history so as a huge deal she. else John. I need more information from you I need you for me to know that you were actually this person, for me to know that you are actually the oakland chap oakland county child killer, I need to know something from you that only the these would know, or only the families of the victims would now

sir John goes on to explain to her how he had left a chicken bone in the pocket of one of the victim and then we had their fried chicken exact. So we now, he never states which victim was, but we can probably infer that it that it was timothy king, the boy that that was fed, fried chicken two hours before he was laid to rest the their bit of information that he gives to Helen is that he tells her about the two books that were in jails backpack. Now this is here Yes, and he not only did he described the books actually, as I described them to you, but he also claim He had had them in his possession for many many years here, lost possession. I get like assume souvenir something well yeah. He kept, he kept them and what had what had taken.

was he had a separation from a girlfriend or wife, uncertain of which, because again this person? Is we don't know exactly who he is, but he the separation from his significant other and parted separation was that she kept their entire library that they had, Supposedly the the after giving this information, the police tried track down these books, because did have a receipt from his significant other of receipt. Payment for a large portion of books. Now this was at a pawn shop or something of that nature and they there and then, of course, the books have been sold to somebody else who they tracked down and that person had given the books too a family member or friend in and then this person its sold a in a sale. So basically they were unable to. They tried very hard to track down these books. They were unable to do so. So what ends up here

meaning. Is that police end up sitting down with this john character, And they want to interrogate and they want it in tat. They want to ask him some questions about his possible. Involvement in these child killings,. Now John, is able to provide an alibi for some of this what is his alibi. His alibi is a passport now Helen would go on to explained everybody that this was a fake passport. now everybody knows if you, when you travel from country to country, that you receive a stamp on what country you rat in the town, I'm period that year there so its noted and your passport. Showing the police his passport, showing that he was out of the country- during the time of one or all of the killings. This leasing. Him of police suspect suspicion are no of their fooled. By this passport. Well, I mean it could be a real passport. We don't know and again

This could be somebody just telling a story to this Helen person, but I base name was again his the name that she gives. This character is John sure. It wasn't frank, aben name so the next expect is I got three more jesus. Christ, I got three more. Who, who do you want to hear I got Theodore Aberdeen. I have archer, sloan increase a hush is a great names. Go ahead this, whichever one you want, while nodded. kind of evidence against either of these However, there is a lot of speculation and I believe there is good reason for a lot of that speculation way. So as this, the speculation part of the shell algeria, where get into that, so let's start with Archibald sloan, who is our bold sloan. He is a pedophile who victimize young boys in his neighborhood. Now he lived near the

he lived in the oakland county area at the time. became a person of interest when hair samples found in his nineteen sixty six pontiac bonneville match hair found on the bodies of timothy king and mark stab at. However, the hare samples did not match the other two victims. These were the two girl victims. It should be noted, though, that slow, had told police officers that he often lent out his vehicle to his other pedophile friends. The next suspect is Chris, she now Chris Bush is the son of Harold Lee bush, who was a high level general motors executive, Chris Bush has been in the these kirsty for a short period of time after Timothy's abduction, and he was suspected as being involved in child pornography. Cries him. It is

nobody in this area involved in this shit. Well, Chris Bush, we commit suicide and nineteen. Seventy eight. He had hung himself and this is after views released right after right in there? our people that believe that he is suspect, number one and they would point out that there has been no confirmed activity of the oakland cut county child killer sense. Chris bushes death michigan state police, released a three thousand four hundred page document that investigative records down. They gave this to bury king bury king his timothy kings, father theo, were lamborghini. Theodore lamp held on these names earnest ridiculous Theodore lamborghini that should all be locked up for shitty names. Policing I'm a heights, Ohio rested, TED lambert gain a retired otto work,

Believed to have been involved in china in a child porn, ring nineteen seventies. On march. Twenty seventh, two thousand and seven investigators, told detroit television station w x Y, see that again was considered a top suspect in the oakland county child killer case law. Bringing pleaded guilty to fifteen sex related counts involving young boys rather than except a plea, barging bargain. That would have required him to take a polygraph test on the oakland county Child killings lamborghini also rejected an offer of reduce sins in exchange for a polygraph of the case, so happen with this low clown. Well he's serving like a sixty year sentence in prison right now be regarding those those charges that he was brought bond, and he was an old man at the time of year, Conviction in two thousand and seven so

happy to know that he will be seeing the streets anytime soon ever no ever again good, I mean unless he lives to be like a hundred forty years. Oh good, if he does- and I hope they beat the shit out of imprisoned. So he talked about the suspect. You the talk about eighty, some resource from speculation, sure sure. So, let's go into that. We have some problems with this case and my first thought when I went through this thing, was the victims, were involved in how the victims were handled. Now we two boys. They were sexually assaulted and killed, and we have to girls that were not sexually assaulted and killed. They were all held for some time between four days in nineteen days right, so that presents a bunch of problems to me and some challenges: Well, yes, and I think my first thought was that may be.

Not all of these cases are connected. And so my first thought was like what we had said remember way back when we, when we had discussed thee, long island serial killer case. It seems that yesterday yet so at that, I, when we first discussed that case it was not confirmed, and a lot of people did not believe that shaming gilbert was a part of that case, a lot people did not believe or or even thought that may, that some of the remains were of one killer, and some of the other remains were of another killer right in had suggested that they should invest. Those cases adds as such that you have to: u have to pull these if thumbs apart from one another, you can't just, Lee combine all of them, because what you do with that Is you convoluted case, meaning where there might

The evidence in one case that points to somebody that would in another case, rule that person out. So what I would have done in this case, from the get go would be to put group of guys, a group of investigators on the two boy cases on marks, deadens case and on timothy kings case and I would have had them investigate those two. Why? Because those are the zack same case or two boys were abducted. One was our strangled one was found, suffocated what did he say that all the victims were found with their arms cross across her chest? Yes, that was what was reported in the media. But see. I have some issues with things that were in the media. While always always should have issues with what's report

in the media, so we are hearing from the media that all of the victims were were bathed They were left in their original clothing. Now, let's let me get sidetracked firm in this, one thing that I find weird than ever buddy, is so important. Asked in so stunned by the idea that all food victims. We found in their clothing that they were seen and last well that doesn't stun me so much because the georgie of people that are found murder are found either naked. In the clothing that they wore when their last seen. very rare that someday would be taken from somewhere. They change. They would dressed them up in something else and then leave em somewhere that that happens, so rarely so so low yeah, because that article of clothing would be than now evidence in a lead thing you would want to discard of anyway rent right, so

let's go ahead and throw out that clothing thing? Let's let throw out the clothing there found while, but what's interesting about their clothing is the day that there are five found in those clothes, but the clothes or clean and that's again, reported in the media, cleaned and also pressed yes, The speculation was that the clothes were washed and pressed so let me take you down this thing here. Ok With the victims were found in the snow one, the snow was piled up on top of that, the other victims, it had snowed upon them for three too. five hours as they lie there. Ok, so you mean to tell me that win win. somebody is lying there dead in their clothing

snow was piled on them or their being snowed upon for hours and hours that you can tell me that those clothes had been washed impressed that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why tat he could tell clean or not mean if there, but they need that the victim was held, captured captive, deceiving the five. Is there would be enough to tell that the clothes were dirty. I believe, does not necessarily mean to me that they ve been washed and I'll. Tell you why? If, if I abducted you ok, let's say I I took you you're wearing shorts and a hoodie array. So I abduct you, and shortly after I get you back to my you know, wherever I liver, wherever you're gonna, be held captive, her fortune nineteen days. Did you bring me flowers? Ok? What? If what? If you are strip your clothes- and I hear

those close up immediately afterwards, I dont have to wash them and I'll have to press them to get that impression. later, when you're found wearing those clothes that I put you back into mean. I think the press fain would be hard but and I could this be something that was reported- that was, you know, take an outcome. blown up as a big fact that wasn't right. I I think, that's a media thing. I don't think that's a police investigation thing and I think that's where got convoluted by the community when they hear this type of thing. then. My next question would be the close even clean before, because think twelve year old boys mean they don't care about change, change, clothes everyday. I related maybe that I had a few parents genes who knows a meannesses isis, detroit men. I mean

no detroit was better back in the you know, seventies as far as like income goes, but it's detroit man I what I'm getting at the Eminem town. What I'm getting at is that I think that there's been too much speculation put in put into this clothing thing. Okay, I don't think that I don't that the handling of the clothing has much to do with this at all. If it does, Then it plays into the whole remorse aspect of this case and, let's think about this, for a sec, one of the victims was hell we're here to do. One of this, one of the victims was held for nineteen days, okay, so if I acting alone and I abduct somebody I'm going to keep them where for nineteen days where they, where they appear to once I once I'd, dump their body, they appear to be well kept. They appear to be well fed,

well looked after their their body is wash their clothing is wash their clothing is pressed, as is as the media would report, How am I going to do that? I have to go and work some of those days. Maybe you don't have to maybe I dont have to, but most they can. We agree that the overwhelming majority of people have to work both days to support their. I've style to have a place of privacy. hold somebody yet now I get that were they can live family member or a house could be left them men theirs, possibilities mean they could get government assisting well one ok. So there has always been we're. Gonna go down a few different avenant spotless go it led to to make selves clear, but if you are also, if you have nineteen days, that's the days to wash person that's allotted days too,

clean underneath their fingernails, there's a that's a lot of days to wash your clothes suppressor close, But I think what you're missing here is that's a lot of days for me to have to leave and go to work and leave. My captor by themselves and hope and pray that day, no one hears their screams and it does have a lesson and get loose. Think about how many cases that we have that people go missing for years. It does and by but there's also what I'm getting at here, captain you're not listening to me, I am listening to you understand. green with you and that's bothering you. Ok, I'm trying to go through this theory here right now, hear me out camped now, if if I'm holding people for four to nineteen days again have to be worried they will be discovered or they will break loose and escape what is best way to make sure that they don't break loose and escape the that somebody. cover them? Is it

have somebody watching over them. I can't be they're all of the time watching over them, so what I'm getting at there is loose speculation in this case that there would have been too boy involve now One thing that is not been discussed very often in this case that I think needs to be investigated. Is it I think that there is, possibility that a man and a woman were involved in this case. Ok and I'll tell you why this is seventies, okay, now I'm not saying saying that you know women don't work or whatever anything like that. What I'm getting at, though, is I can see it likely that there would. a situation where Husband and wife would take these children the been goes off to work the nine inviolate lending through friday, when there is a wife at home too,

to the need of the captain. The captive hang on, first. Second, what what so what this go towards the now of remorse that we see in the bodies when their found there not to laid and despicable positions there not left. Naked on the side of the road the girl who was shot in the face was she displayed the same way to yes that's. Also, media speculation, ok, but go now but what I'm getting at is that there are some signs here that, if, if we are to believe than motherly motherly care exactly at all, if all for these are the same, connected that there is some signs of remorse, whereas more likely to come from not from the killer. In my opinion, but from the kid his accomplice, which could have a woman it was left, home to make sure that so and so did escape.

Or so and so was well cared for Maybe she was a chapter on some level. I mean captor as far as like mental abuse, physical abuse could very well be right. There, part of that that makes it and resting. Is it as we had said, this was very well known case? Okay, so at this time parents are already by the time the timothy king, the fourth victim, is abducted At the same time, we have parents already telling their children will behave how to handle themselves how to how to withdraw from somebody that might be trying to lure them Ok, so here's what I'm getting at here then had that discussion bury king, his father, timothy kings, father had that discussion with timothy king before he was abducted. Now so that means one of two things he was either lord. He was

he- either willingly gone into somebody's vehicle and went with them or he was abducted and he was taken. Okay, so a war. This is what I'm getting at. If I work method, king. I and I were to that that pharmacy, to pick up some candy and then I'm going to ride my skateboard in the parking lot afterwards, I'm waiting up for some friends to me, I'm heightened awareness right because my father had already spoken to be here- He told me that there there are kids out there being abducted. There There are men that you should probably watch out for the other programmes. Plan, assuming that it's a man exactly so I'm not going to willingly get into a vehicle with a man, but if there's a woman there does that Let my guard down a little bit. Does that guard down little bit. If, though, if the woman comes up to begin talks to me, I I think timothy king was a smart young boy, and I think that here-

have willingly got into a vehicle with a man by himself, but again, that doesn't mean he wasn't physically put there? Okay! Well, then, that takes us down, another wrote. If a woman was not involved, then what that means is that these kids were the majority of improbably of dutch abducted, and not just to into getting into a vehicle right and what is proof of that? Well, here's the problem. Ok, We ve already pointed out some problems with the sexual assaults. In that now sexual assaults of some of the victims we ve so pointed out the problem of some of the victims having been suffocated or strangled. We have one girl, Joe Robinson, who was shot in the face. Okay. So why

They link all of these together when you one shot in the face and the rest of them killed in a similar manner. Laughter said after display the same way minutes telling sign right, and I agree with that, but what we're talking Is the behaviour of the killer? Why? while the sudden, when he shoot one in the face and suffocate or strangle the others I amid the I mean it's a possibility that there's four killers: five killers. But you just said that they were all laid out the same abba. But if it was like, like a spiritual, or are they go, not spiritual, but ritualistic killing. I am simply discussing the manner in which the four kids were killed and why?

in presenting to you. Why would they be killed in different ways? But it's all the same. Emma we typically don't see multiple victims from the same perpetrator, killed in in different ways like this right. What if the email was all the same, but the means was differently and what I mean by that ok walk with me for a sec now, I'm not walking with you any work, as you just talking about abducting me and take my clothes. Often hanging them up, I'm, not walking with you anywhere. Thank you very much so too that the two male victims, one m was strangled and one of them was suffocated now that actually could be the same way of killing someone Yes, I mean that's what I'm saying before to me. It's like it's a moot point. It's like they're close enough right in one

Would they be close enough? Here's here's my suspicion, mice, Spain was that you know we had heard bury king the file of timothy king say that he had thought that his son that somebody held there. Hand over his mouth and nose. suffocated timothy ice back to something else. Actually happen, and I think that the same thing too place with the earlier male victim mark. I think that a bag was placed over the head of both of these boys. I think that that bag was tied up with something around the neck and that led to suffocation of timothy king, I actually think that mark was suffocated as well, but they suspect strangulation because they found oh marks or wire marks around his neck, meaning date. Somebody

used a rope or a wire to secure the bag around the victims head now and maybe the rope was this tied to type. In one case it was tied tighter than the other and that's why There was evidence of a strangulation. My appeal, they both expired. The same way both were laid out the same way now. two girls were like. The same way as well. What the girls I believe she was either suffocated or strangled, but but either way, the fall into this theory. Now we have this situation of jill who was shot in the face with a shock. In the end, they believe that she is actually shot at the scene, and actually they know that to be a fact, and how do they know that? Because there would be evidence of her being shot at that place? Well, these other victims were poor public killed before they were laid there So why would jill all the son be shot in the face? Wins he's being late

out at the scene. Maybe she wasn't dead yet right, but there's no right exactly. There is no way that she just laid there willingly with her arms crossed and this person shot her in the face I mean he could have posed her that way afterwards, but what I'm getting at is what if he had thought that he Forget her or thought that and strangled her and wait. He pulled her out of the vehicle and went to lay down there. He realized she still breathing. Well then, he had a on in his car. He had that shark and sixteen gauge in his car and he shot her in the face. What what this also point to again I have just said that there was heightened awareness that these kids wouldn't have got into a car with somebody for no reason in your said what what they weren't lord, what if they were what they were abducted. Well guess what you're probably right. timothy king wouldn't have had a chance if a man, kept out of his vehicle with a shotgun

Get in my car right down he keeps scared to death so that to me, except since the reasons why there's different causes of death and Why there's different reasons, different methods that these kids were were found? it's really really all similar methods mean as far as the yeah you don't if there's back over the head than that explains three of them and also explains the fourth one, really it's actually a very simple theory to that in the other thing that I would get at is why were the girls not sexually assaulted, but the boys were sexually assaulted, okay, well In most of these serial killer cases, we find end of the day when they find somebody many years after the crimes were committed more chase somebody, after after handfuls of people were killed or dozens of people were killed that typically, the the perpetrator

of these crimes was actually interviewed at one point, and I believe that the perpetrators of this crime of these crimes was interviewed at one point I did the cops know who did it, but I believe that spoke to the person that had had done it and thing that I find interesting here is two or three the suspects that we reviewed they were involved in some kind of child porn child pornography The thing going on at the time I don't understand how that kind of ring works, but I'm getting at is that I think that they probably if you are involved in some kind of child pornography free ring. I I'm good that. There is some kind of trading of of porter ethic material or pictures or images of things going on there trade or sale. I dont, know how that works, but why getting at is that might be

reason why the boys were sexually assaulted and the girls were not now the victim there was held the august was one of the girls she was held for nineteen days. She's held for nineteen days and not sexually assaulted that doesn't mean that there weren't pictures taken that doesn't that there wasn't something else going on. They would provide in income or some kind of trading or something that was going on- and these are like pictures that you'd think would surface unless they are scum, skated than you'd. Think there were to be known, then maybe this killer only had a proclivity form boys and didn't have any interest in the girls, but there was an interest in taking the girls, because it was something to trade. Something to sell right, and I think that in this case as disgusting and despicable as it is. I think that this whole thing goes deeper than just abducting.

kids and killing oh come on. Man doesn't really get much fucking our current now while absolutely believe that there is probably more than one person involved in this, whether these cases, connected or not, You know you either have multiple killers or you have more than one person being involved. and the killing of all for these showed an think that there is a lot of dark in terrible, shit going on around in that car, unity at the time by some weird freakin dude, and I think that this is the terrible outcome that we saw that I think it's because I think a lot of stuff happens in a large These main, maybe not the actual abductions and the actual murders, but some of the solid bullshit it happens everywhere. Now I dont know that will ever gain anything from this Alan character, character,

was one of the suspects that we did discuss? He was the their purse, named himself as Alan, and he described frank as the killer both of these people may be fictitious and I d know about this hellenes John. I dont know that that we can anything from that. I think that the people that should be of biggest interest would be that thing, or labour gain, and chris bush on the principal issues then and I, but I believe that those are the ones that u n, sloan archibald I believe that those are the three that are probably. Why or two of those or one or one of their associates were the purpose leaders of these crops yeah I mean they were involved in pedophile rings. They were via involved in child pornography. I think that that's what this cases about I'll deftly daphne and I

The problem, too, is you know it's it's really. This app I them act because normally, when somebody is sexually assaulted, when their younger, they have or tendencies to do that later, an arm Is it such a dark circle, but I don't think any of those people could come forward with any knowledge. You know and say: well, you know I have this. Suspicion that this guy was involved in this. Well, why, while such trading you no child one with him. I mean that's really hard to come forward with well, The thing is too in there have been, the recent years in the last ten or twelve years there has been. No, family members and parents of these victims that have come out and have passed, blame on to the police in past blame onto the investigators, and they have question

why the investigators handrail the case away that they did why Did they not dive deeper into the lives of these children and they have question law enforcement had conducted the investigation. Now the thing is I can understand that I can fully endorse you're upset. These crimes happened right and I agree with them. I agree with them on many levels. The thing that I do want to point out that there I feel like there are traces of this that are similar to maybe humans Half on some small, level that I dont think that the police, or investigators understood at that time and the elections a new thing or so, exactly something that they're now aware of I mean? Even today I mean in ohio, we've had a lot of laws passed and a lot of tax task force set up, so they can start work

on this problem in sight, if you were to ask me five years ago, is there human trafficking problems now ohio, say you crazy, I dont think that case will ever be solved and I, that I'm wrong. You know. A situation like this. I always hope that I'm surprised in that. I'm not right. I'd rather be surprised, then right, but I think that it's gonna be tough to to solve this it. You know I don't happening. Unless there is somebody with a death. Bed confession, you know, rubio a wife girlfriend of somebody like that first scenario that we discuss war if it is a man that comes out and says he was involved in something you know as despicable as this for the latter, I don't see that happening elsie happening and that's unfortunate and This whole cases unfortunate are endless, wrap it up yeah we do have some recommended reading for you this week, recommended book is

the michigan murders. This is by edward key. and actually this is a trimly interesting book this, about a killer that it's not involved in this case. I know that this case took place a mission as well, but this is a co ed killer of such an. This in my opinion, kind of the east coast version of ted Bundy, and actually these cases took place just before ted Bundy went on his murderous rampage, so goat amazon you can actually go to our website. True crime, garage dot, com, click on the amazon banner and you can pick up the michigan murders by edward keys. Through our website. Any can pick up. anything to support the show I mean I yeah, that's where I got this hoodie from my new headphones. You, like my new red, headphones, beautiful I've read headphones. I got I bought a red mic for the show, so I get an all fan see up in the garage

and just a reminder. We have our garage sale going on from now until may, fourteenth go to true crime, garage, gorazde com, click on the store page and check out the tea we have there. We have em in men's and women's designs, there's a few different designs, air for you help your shirts, we limited quantities. So, yes, support the show, keep the show going straw, So thank you for joining us in the garage tonight until Time will see a next week be good

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