In new orleans twenty twelve burst catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park What were the address should have been, he was shot and killed I'm deal. You d join me for the newest season of counter clock. As I die, The motive behind bruces murder, a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now binge all fourteen epoch. loads of counter clock season. Five, wherever you isn't to casts this spring, transform your outdoor space into regular gathering place for you and your loved ones, with help from actually whether you're into wicker, teak or driftwood inspired furniture. We ve got the look you're going for add an accessory like string lights and beverage touch to take your patio party from basic to gear, aided and enjoy cosy evening vibes with a new fire bit visit, ashley dot com or start by your local store and find affordable pricing and expert support it.

A sharp and save today only it actually the. I welcome the true crime garage. Where of you are whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening, I'm your hosts nick, may, as always, is a man. I got me a mug why? For christmas, and one

Later, my house is completely destroyed birth to the ground. He is the cap, not my fault brow. I gave you then struck since he had dummy good to be seen, and it's good to see you think for listening and thanks for town of france, Tonight we are drinking secret stairs by trillion brewing company garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five secrets there's. This is a stout that is bold and balanced and, unlike most out, it's not syrupy or too sweet, but there hands of caramel in here secret stairs was brought. To us by these fine members of the garage grew first that we have. didi in a wasp oakwell home and a big, we like the jib to tiffany vibrating ohio, I let's go down to one of the garage, favorite states and say hi, and thanks to brad and katy and taxes. Also

x is we have Eric and asked him and then the little state of rhode island? We have elisa and we give a big thank you to Sarah in Joplin Missouri and last but not least, we have timmins Cindy a full metal rock in law, vegas thanks to everybody, fulfil one of the four for this week's show if you want to help us out with next week's, show, go to true crime, garage dot, com and click on the done, but he can follow us on social media, instagram, facebook, twitter, all that stuff at true crime garage and if you want to keep up with all of my beer adventures, follow me on untapped at true crime, garage and you'll notice. When he's on his AP he's a wasallam, I kept the That's enough of the business everybody gather round. Grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk, some true cried. The

on august, seventh, nineteen, seventy two in springfield new jersey parents, salvage or, in florence de parma, tried to call the police they wanted to report their daughter jeanette, who was sixteen years old either is missing. Or, as a runaway, they were told their daughter, would have to have been missing for at least before hours before they could take the report earlier that day june, had had at least one argument with apparent before leaving her home to venture off to her friends house, which was eight miles away, the plan was, she was going to walk three miles by herself and take the two in the rest of the way to her friends house, she was also scheduled to work at her part, I'm job. Later after going to her friends house She never arrived at work. She never arrived at her friends home. We did covers speculation in some rumours regarding of where she may have gone that day. However, there

people to suggest that either she did go to this party, or there was now party at all. We also suggested that that could be just poor recollection on the on the part of these young teenagers, who are being asked questions. Why are they being asked questions? Because? Not only is this girl missing, but approximately six weeks later, her by is found in a wood. It area on a cliff known as the devil's teeth reigns. There ask in her grasp in these kids about these events that took place six we prior now we got into the whole thing of whether this was a situation where the parents had reported her is missing or as a runaway the police state that the deposit family called in a city. Patients that their daughter had run away when the police work later give different accounts on this situation, because the we're interviewing the parents and accord

The police- it was the diplomas they had reported jeanette as a runaway police, would later say that a run way, situation is not really investigated that they, they give a disguise none of the girl to give some brief information to their beat cops and if nobody, he's the girl there. They don't really do anything. You might kick the bushes a little bit, but you don't spend a lot of time. I'm working on a situation where somebody left willingly from their home. Now did interview genetic parents, the problem it investigators had with with her parents was this. They claim that the answers that they got from her parents regarding the final day the day that jeanette had disappeared, the answers were short and often vague answers, almost with no details and the police seem to like this. They thought that the the diplomas would have more answers for them. They would have some details cement for me.

that might provide some leads into the annual murder of their daughter, but just a few days after the daughter was found. The mother said some odd things to the newspaper. Yes in this, a lot of people in the public took some issue with these statements. Now this was florence to palm. This was just two days after the discovery of genetic body he tells a local newspaper. This is the newark star ledger. End quote: she says she had resigned herself to her daughters death weeks ago now, mine she sang weeks ago, and yet her daughters body was just found two days before giving this statement to the newspaper and she states, The lord had told her and had gave her peace weeks before finding the body of her order in some would point out that that suggest that maybe the parents knew something or maybe the parents had some kind of involvement in the actual murder or what took place with their daughter. Yes, I may

The parents know little more or maybe it's to some other intuition intuition that she eventually felt like she headaches. Well, when I find out a little bit more information about the parents and about the diploma family, I don't find her statement to be so incriminating. Let's say we have statements from her other die. Cindy now Cindy was older than jeanette for my you're standing there were two other daughters living in the home with jeanette. Now said that they had a large family like seven or eight kids, I'm assuming the other kids had grown and moved out of the home, but it's often rip. Did that the two remaining daughters you know after they found the boy. body of jeanette newspaper articles will the two remaining daughters samson just two of them live there now cindy The only one that I could find that would give statements. That would talk about this case for years to come,

I wish we had a little more information from Cindy as to what was going on with inside the walls of that diploma home during the course of win, Jeanette was still missing and the body had not been found, because I'm assuming that, if her mother had resigned herself to her daughters death weeks ago before the before the discovery of the body, that there would be things going on with inside that home. You know, you would think that she would almost be what would she be comforting her, has been, or her husband comforting her you what you think there'd be a lot of dread inside that home prior to the finding of the body. but the reason why I say that it I don't find that that statement to be so incriminating is one thing we have keep in mind here in factor in this situation, is that the debate, a family, especially the parents, were extremely religious for my understanding that they went to the

that it's been reported was they were not just the type that that the attended church on a weekly basis the day would often go multiple times per week and they were extremely religious and I that's why find it so incriminating, because I could see with somebody being incredibly religious their daughter having been gone for three four weeks. I mean you start hope lose hope. Oh, you lose a little bit of hope every day, each day as it gets, There are further from the last time that you saw your child and its point you might just have to put that and god and you might be looking for answers, any may have come to this conclusion or or felt it felt that she will

was being given this information, while this is part of the reason why this case to me is so frustrating because for every bit of information that you think maybe you're going to get closer to having a picture of what was going on, hmm, it seems like there's a counter story, so one stories that the family's really religious and so again she had this bah god told her. Your child pass, accept it hm. Okay, that's one story. The other story is that the family is not that religious and that one of their daughters start going to different church. That was not there the nomination bright, but then the family started going to that church and then there's reports that jeanette is highly involved in church works for some teen crisis center type thing. Maybe crisis center is not the right word, but do you know where she is

mentoring, yeah and there's other reports that she was not involved in church at all that she possibly was involved in like witchcraft and so that that's what so fresher about this case. The seemed it's the same thing we saw when we discussed janet's character, what kind of since she may have been what kind of teenager she could have been. It's you have half the room telling us that she was super religious and she was super into going to church and she was. trying to mentor some of her peers too fine legion into join the church, and then you have the other half of the room. Saying almost the opposite. The exact opposite saving know her parents hug her. They are her family drug. Are there multiple times a week? I think they called it on drug and alcohol counselor, which is weird to have a drug and alcohol counselor be sixteen, but I think it was more of a system set up where, if, if a teen

Peter was having issues where they could call be somebody of their own age to say: hey, come of the church. We love you with work. We care about, you will get you some help, If that makes any sense will yet because you would have that that would provide some one, the opportunity to discuss, what's going on inside their life and things may be that Dave experimented with or without the fear of getting in trouble. You know from anybody without their parents, finding out or or a teacher, or something like that, yes of supposedly she did do this, but I was this prize story out there that says that never went to that church, but while we are on the subject of these newspaper articles, there were several they came out within the two weeks of the discovery of her body, and there were several that of significance. In my opinion,

There are two that I would like to discuss, and here are the headlines from these two. The first one is a headline girl sacrificed in which right in the second is de palma's, say slayers possessed by demons. Okay, We should go through both of these, because this is where this might be. Where this the genesis of where these rumours about witchcraft and satanism, having been involved in genetic mark the star with one that's cod girl sacrifice and which right yeah hears important little snippet. From from that article, it starts investor asian into the death of sixteen year. Old jeanette diploma is focusing on elements of black witchcraft and satan worship. A review of death seen photos according to reports, is leading authorities to believe the girls death may have been in the nature of a sacrifice

pieces of wood at first thought to be at the scene by chance are now seen assembles detectives throughout union county have been alerted to the possibility that a called or a cult member played a part in the death. search party discovered her remains. She had been missing six weeks on September nineteen. In a area of a quarry atop, a forty foot cliff above four hundred yards from shun pike. Road, one searcher said two pieces of wood were crossed. On the ground over her head more would framed the by like a coffin, another person who was there said I guess if you we're looking for signs. They were there Just go ahead and read the next one, so we can dive into both of them. At the same time, and I'm going to kind of give a summer of this article cause it's it's a bit longer, but it starts by. Saying parents say daughter, may have been murdered by persons.

bodies are possessed by demons. Then the article mentions the following incidents of witchcraft in the area. Also stating authority said Jeanette death may be linked to a coven or witchcraft assembly in the area and, what's especially troubling here, is this the first mention of of this sitting creation. This article also mentions acts of animal sacrifice. This taking place in reservation near by stating that state part police found these acts committed against dogs, cats and even a goat, the reporter about a bowl of blood that was found, the bowl of blood, all contain, the bodies of pigeons who add their necks snapped. I think it's him point out, though, when we're talking about The animal sacrifices that the state part police had found

This was in a nearby reservation. This was not in the same area where Jeanette body was found its. I think its key to point, that out of a humming miles away, I don't. I don't know off the off the top of my head here. Look of its five to ten miles in that radius could be linked Possibly, what I'm getting at, though, is yet is their possible that it spill over or at some point that they moved into another area that could happen, but what I want to make sure that I point out here. Is those acts, those things it there leaved or going on in that reservation were now, going on in the area where Jeanette body was eventually found, they found no evidence of that at any talk right. There's rumours that there was witchcraft activities, gonna at devil, scholar,

devil's teeth, but those were just rumors and maybe maybe the name itself. Devil's teeth inspires those rumors yeah. This again, devil's teeth is a difficult place to get to. So you know who we're a bunch of devil, worships, going up there to performed acts probably not likely right and it sounds like they were leaving you hate to be gross, but they were leaving the carcasses and they were leaving evidence of such at this reservation like it was pretty easily. do. You know they were fighting blood and they were fighting bodies of animals. Now I could find one story specifically talking about chickens, and I know that that paper: article reference dogs, cats and a goat. However, I find any thing specifically saying that they had found carcasses of a dog cat or even a goat reddick again, these

rumours than the other rumours that are weirder. These items that were left at her body, these Blair witch type items that would be be left at the outer sacrifice. seen near well, and that's what I want to kind of focusing on. We should push away the stuff. That's going on, may or may not be going on at the reservation and talk specifically about what was found with her body and at the crime scene. Now there are We generally three different reports of what are considered to be like, lee what was found there, because this all over the shop captain. We have different people saying different things were found at the crime scene, the first one I want to discuss is we have the police officer Mr Daul, that we spoke about yesterday. He involved in. He was the one that responded to the call about the arm at the apartment complex, and he was part of the search. He was one of the first pillar.

Or to see her body a top of that cliff. Now what he described at the scene. Was he grab a single cross, a single wooden cross. Now I have to we to be clear here? This is not a wooden cross. It somebody bill and had nailed into the ground. This is white describes as a large stick crossed over a smaller stake that would form the appearance of a cross lying on the ground. This would have been just above if you were at the feet, if you were at her feet. Looking at the body, this would be just above her head right, so some people would say it's like you know a headstone almost right, but he also says that it looks like there was a tree and that possibly a tree just fell over and therefore making the cross. He says between the cross itself, and

net body were four or five stones that look like they were placed around her head. Giving thee The image of almost a halo right, though the only things that he describes finding their or seen before, he's told by detectives to get off cliff and go down until tell people to ban, up and get away We have another account. This is I'm a girl named LISA she's about she would have been about jeanette age, and I want to give our full name, but she says that she went to the crime scene two days after the body was found and when she got there. The crime scene tape. The police tape was still they still robed off the area, but that there was nobody guarding the area. So she went up there. This is almost like up like a stand by me situation. You know going out. This a body, but they ve already removed jeanette body by this

Let us not as cool I mean think about that of stand by stephen king, said hey got make movie, I figure he wants your body yeah and they go. But there is no do I go see? Where happened not as co re hatred Anybody out there listening deciduous my own opinion, the move stand by me, incredibly good, the the book that its base from the body very good that something people should check out anyway, let's go get into. What Lisa says that she it's all there now remember. We said that the jeanette body had kind of sunk. into the ground ray when LISA went up there, you can still see the outline where the body once was. So it's not like you she's, look at some random spot, she's, looking at a spot that is correct and what she described. Was it. There was a large log that would have run ah above where her head would have,

and then a smaller log that would have been right at her feet and then to each side of the body were multiple makeshift crosses from from small branches. This gives a vague picture. Maybe a coffin like thing or resting area for jeanette. Some some say that there were built kind of an altar, and that's where the sacrifice had to happen was on this alter But- and you know not not where we look at it- is like you know, I was raised catholic, so you think of altar beans. That was raised right, but this was basically were creating an altar on the ground, like a perimeter around the body right, so not so much a casket. The third, a cow is what is described according to newspaper,

scouts- and this is kind of a combination of the two we have the cross that we spoke about. The officer dawn saw above the head. And then we have the log going up by the head area. The log also it the area and then the body is position, but two logs as well, giving a full outline of either an altar or a coffin like situation. Now, with inside that perimeter that was created by those four logs, we have multiple, makeshift small crosses. Created by branches, small branches, on both sides of the body, but this come from LISA. This is the from newspaper accounts on it, so he so we have leases accounts that are similar to this. newspaper account well in a sense, it's it's almost like officer dawns, a cow is minimal.

You know there is that he's only finding a few items, there and then leases is a little more extravagant there's the addition of the logs with multiples makeshift crosses. both sides of the body and then the newspaper cow is like a combination of the two, but on steroids, where you have everything involved and you have a you- have a bunch of stuff surrounding this body. So what's your gut telling you? What I think captain is I I favor officer dawns account as well as the teenager leases account right. than the newspaper, and I have nothing. Very little. The base this off of, but the newspaper seems to be the most extravagant. It seems too. Contain the most items up there, all right, but there there in the business of selling stories right it could just be sensationalism window for the purpose of their art. those which you and I absolutely hate that I think I question

if any of the writers had even been to the location. I think that they were probably basing what they thought was their off of other peoples stories and off of other people's accounts of what they may or may not have saw of isa was found by the body, In my opinion, I I think that it was prob lee like I said, I think that the more accurate statements be either leases account or officer, dawns account, so, ok, so to contradict Mr Sir account we have another officer that says yes, there were sticks instead runs up there near the body the body was in the middle of the woods and in this off there's opinion the sticks and stones were just thereby chance. They weren't arranged by anyone. Nobody had placed them there that they were just their biggest sticks and stones exist in the woods right now office or die,

and you know that these too are not really. These two officers aren't really saying one is right, and one is the wrong. You know he saying don would have seen, sticks and stones up there. But I dont believe they were arranged now officer dawn would say well. This office was only up on top of that hill for a very short period of time before being asked to leave and what I believe I saw appear to have been purposely place, in position near the body the thing here is under this situation. Both of these officers would have been asked to leave the area relatively quickly after finding the body were. You if somebody like lisa, who, if she the adventure out there, two days later, she's she's, looking something and not being removed cheek? She can stand there as long as she likes and observe whatever is their whatever's present now keep in mind. It is in fact, two days after the body was removed from their somebody could have altered the scene I think

leases could be slightly exaggerated. She I'm just factoring if she's a teenager, I'm factoring in that she might have been scared. While she was up there that also she's, like think about what the one officer said. Yes, of course, there were sticks and stones up there. It's the woods for crying out loud right I think maybe she may have seen things up there and put into a little more thought that was this area into what item she was looking at. I think they are so for me and what my belief would be as that it, somewhere between officer, dawns, account and leases account of what was seen up there, and this also possible that some day, one

there and have these little crosses made as sticks and put them down. As like a memorial to the girl, I mean you see that all the time somebody dies in a car wreck. You know two days later: it's like there's a bunch of crosses that put somebody put down, could be something like that, but I from all the accounts and all the interviews, I've heard the majority of the police officers say there wasn't anything there brett, I'm not going to go too far fetched with this lisa turtle story. You know that there was no crosses. There was no nothin, because that would have been reported by multiple cops if there were crosses there weren't, where there's some sticks that were placed in certain you know, but it could be as simple as the area was altered before or after the murder, and that's why they're? There is some sign of any of that

to me. There is no sign of that. This was a sacrifice or witchcraft. It's it's a strange situation because, like you said, we have multiple officer saying that there was nothing up there to suggest that, and then we of two of the officers, one who says at the scene hey. This looks like craft and then another officer officer don stating I saw across and I saw some stones arranged near the head-

My name is jason alexander, the star of bedtime stories of the english side in a brand new scripted comedy pakistan, which I play palm springs. Hotelier mel Haber fool in the nineteen. Seventeen turned the run down ingle side into the best, kept secret, get away for hollywood's elite. The series also stars Brian Jordan, Alvarez Michael, the keen richard kind last basque, and what you can find bedtime stories of the angels I didn't on serious example or sticker or wherever you get your bike s don't forget to follow the jobs you never miss. An episode this spring, transform your outdoor space into Iraq. You were gathering place for you in your loved ones, with help from actually whether you're into wicker, teak or driftwood inspired furniture. We ve got the look you're going for add an accessory like string lights and beverage tabs to take your patio party from basic to gear, aided and enjoy cosy evening vibes with a new fire bit visit, ashley dot com or start by your local store and find affordable pricing and x.

Support today, shop and save today, only it actually did you know instigate, delivers more than groceries. Even get tech beauty office apply sporting goods and more all delivered right to your door in as fast as an hour. So, whether you're cooking dinner or your phone chargers cooked you can save yourself multiple trips by shopping over one thousand stores in the instigated app visitants our die com to get free delivery on your first, three orders offer valid for a limited time. Ten dollar minimum per order additional terms apply, all right. We're back cheers may cheers captain now I'll. Tell you what, regardless of what was found up at the scene? Ok, because it's all over the up either. Nothing was found, someone were found. Her a whole bunch of items were found that were resemble items. It would be

satanic in nature or witchcraft. The thing here, We there was a great book written about this case in it's called the death on the devil's teeth, and this was written by jesse, pollack and mark moran, now one thing these two guys did. These guys are authors, I believe they work for are founded. Something called weird new jersey or weird n J, which I guess good bye annually, publication that comes out for what things that happen in the state of new jersey is that right. And by annually doesn't mean twice a year or every other year. I was confused when I hear that I, but I believe there are public and comes out twice a year, one thing these guys did, which was grey. was they took the information of what was speculated to have been found at the scene? According to all sir dawn according to the teenager, LISA that we discussed and according to the newspaper accounts at the time and they took

information and they presented it to some experts in the field of of witchcraft and satanism to get their opinions on. You know if the if, in fact, these items were founded, the seen what can we make of it ran? Ok, so the the first professor that they talked- and this is Ronald hutton now he teaches cos is on contemporary paganism at the university of bristol. He says that the items he sees and the items that he has been told and ascribed to him. as being placed at that at the murder scene at the crime scene, his opinion, are not even items considered to be that of a pagan or ritual magic relationship. He says that guard list of what or wasn't found at the scene items

in his opinion- these are all traditionally christian symbols that would have been found there. We talked about cross like things being found. Maybe a coffin earn alter like situation being found at the crime scene right which hence my idea- that some baker, the left these after the body, was removed now another professor drawing on the subject points out there, and I was happy to find this because I know little about this subject. I, like you read about called cases but crunch. You know I. I figured it out. Sorry, sorry, You know, I know a lot of people think that satanism, men, witchcraft and things like that can come up a lot in these cases and actually that's just not a thing when it has come up. It's usually simply Bad lead or misunderstanding and the report on satanism, slash whiff, witchcraft being involved.

Often described very hollywood like presented in ways that seem cheesy and to me. So I was happy to find this something I had thought this is from doktor jason, coy professor of history at the core knowledge of charleston, he's a renowned expert in the field of witchcraft and he modern day witches or weekends have none. To do with historical witchcraft and are generally peaceful. all environmentalists and feminist who, who practice? a sort of new age neo in religion which he said seems they have nothing to do with this case at all, nothing that was present. To him and nothing to do with that's murder in opinion. He states that this looks more like the work of psychopath, with a type of religious fixation, while some of them

his ideas that he was talking about kind of get brought up in the west Memphis three case, where Damien talks about that he was, it was more so a spiritual view, n, almost feminist. he's as well. Yeah, that's one thing I had always thought like, I said I'd know very little about this, but that was always my understanding that these are not traditionally violent people. Look, to go out and make actual sacrifices, not hugh or bore animals While we are on that subject- oh captain I want to mention, though I you had asked about where, regarding the location of those quote unquote, animal sacrifices that we discussed that took place at a place called the. What tongue. I hope I said that regular ray. I did not say that, but I am not terribly off. I can't be terribly off because its w ain t c h, you in g reservation now

No, the location in proximity to wear her body was found. What good are you, but what Do know is up. I'm just review my notes here that, according to police, they refer to these as aunt theresa acts that they found evidence. this in the reservation, and this is the the largest p and union county. So it's in the same county as where she was found and the reservation is a one third in nine hundred and forty five acre forest. So a very extremely large area. Now we pulled information from the article that was titled, the palmer's say slayers possessed by demons. There was also one thing that was extremely interesting near the end of this article, and that is that in this a straight from the article states, End quote: the investigation has also been widened to include a review of the list, martyrs

Look after we have not even got to this portion of the case, yet not list right list Some people here that they hear list ally s kay but ass. It were list I wrote a list of research in this case and was like this might have something to do with the list murders and I thought long island, zero killer. Like again it goes back to sell me to earth. My god is so fascinating. Then I realise those them, moron. So why would why? Would they suggests that the investigation, according this article and quote the investigation, has also been widened to include the review of the list martyrs. Well, we have to paint a picture here gown and it is not already been honest martyrs so, though, murders are A family was murdered in this area just months before, Jeanette had gone, missing and, This is considered to be one of the most famous cases from the state of new jersey.

keep in mind, though, the community was still suffering and still trying to heal and and and still trying to make sense of this horrible crime that had happened just months before this teenage girl goes missing and then is ultimately found dead in the woods now, the list murders were not discovered it until december. Seventh of nineteen. Seventy one remember are jeanette deposit case is taking place in august and september of nineteen. Seventy two so less than a year later What we have here, though, captain is upon a welfare check to a home occupied by the list family. Now. This whole is referred to as a mansion, and it was given name breeze? No- and I dont know if that was given to the home by the family or if it had had that name prior to their purchasing of this mansion, but police.

responding to a welfare call at this. seemingly well to do family we have a home where what was reported is that the family would be gone on some type of vacation. Visiting the the mothers mother. who lived in north carolina, and they had told people that they would be. Therefore, several weeks deem, the milk deliveries had stopped at the home. The male had been stopped as wells newspapers, but there were lights were left on inside the home day and night and currently no activity going on within or around the home Finally, neighbours began to get concerned as the lights began, to burn out one by one and almost appear The family had left the home and they were never going to return so when the police force bond to this welfare call they decide to enter. The they find and unlocked window in front of the house towards the front of the home

and they decide to enter the home through their as their way through the home. They could hear what sounded like either symphony music or religious music like being played over a radio. They made their way to now mind you. This was referred to, as ball room. I believe, which you would think would be like some big grandiose, so room rippers, two feet by tv is: it was for a ballroom over a puppeteer. As for all those tiny dancers, so they get to what was referred to as the ballroom and win get there. The rooms not as large as one would would expect to see, but they fight the bodies of of children, and of a woman and they are lying face down on on sleeping bags now all of them. Comes had been shot in the head, the pole

These are pretty frightened by this discovery and shocked, to say the least, but, they're going to move room by room throughout the home, their kind of expecting that they could encounter a killer that is hiding in a corner somewhere in one of these rooms, gone ready to kill whoever finds cycle killer So as they move room to room, they make their way to what is in fact, the man of the home, the man of the house, it's his office in this john list, it's his office and on the desk. They They see a series of letters and find in envelope that is addressed to John list. Pastor This is reverend eugene re winkle. The letter is dated november, ninth, nineteen, seventy one- and it reads dear pastor- I'm very sorry to add this additional burden to your work. I know that

has been done- is wrong from all that I have been taught and then any reason that I might give will not make it right. but you are the one person that I know that, while not condoning this will at least possibly understand why I had to do this. I wasn't learning anywhere near enough to support us everything, I tried seemed to fall to pieces. True, we could have gone bankrupt, it may be gone on welfare, but that brings me to my next point, knowing that type of location. One would have to live in plus the environment, for the children plus the effect on them. Now, that they were on welfare. Would more than I thought they could handle. I that they were willing to cut back, but this all a lot more than that, with pat so determined to get into acting. I was also

fearful as to what this might do to her continue. to be a christian I'm sure it wouldn't have helped also with Helen not going to church, I this would harm the children eventually in their attendants. I hadn't and you too hope does she begin to come to church soon But when I mention that to her she, blew up. Did that she wanted her name taken off of the church roles and this could have only given an adverse result for the children's continued attendance So that is the sum of it. If any one of these had been the condition we might have pulled through, but this. too much at last. I am certain that all have gone to Heaven now Things had gone on. Who knows if that would be the case, of course,

mother got involved. Doing what I did to my family would have and a tremendous shock to her at this age. Therefore knowing that she was also a christian, I felt at best that she be relieved of the troubles of this world that would have hit her after it was all over, I said some prayers for all of them from hymn book that was the least I could do now. For the final arrangements, Helen, in the children have all agreed that they would prefer to be cremated, please see to it that the costs are kept low for mother. She has a plot at the church, cemetery Also, I dont know what will happen to the books and other personal things, but, to the extent possible, I will

for them to be distributed, as you see fit books might go into the school or church library, Originally, I had planned this four november. First, all saint stay, but travel arrangements were delayed. I thought it would be appropriate day for them all to get to Heaven ass. For me, please, It may be dropped from the congregation roles I leave. Myself in the hands of god's justice and mercy. I don't doubt that he able to help us but apparent he saw fit not to answer my prayers. The way that I hoped they would be answered. This makes me think that perhaps it was best As far as the children souls are concerned No, that many will only look at the additional years that they could have lived

Finally, they were no longer christians. What would be gained all So I am sure many will say did anyone do such a horrible thing My only answer is it isn't easy was only done after much thought. One other thing, it may seem cowardly, always shot from behind. When I did when any of them to know even. The last second that I had to do this to them John got hurt more because he seem to struggle longer. The rest immediately out of paying John didn't consciously feel anything either Please remember me in your prayers. I will need them whether or not the government does its duty as it sees fit, I am only concerned with making peace with god and up

I am assured, because of Christ dying, even for me, p s, mother is in the hallway in the attic on the third floor, she was too heavy to move signed. John. So very obvious: captain that John list murdered his wife, three children, and his mother, for writing that letter on november, ninth nineteen, seventy one after wrote the letter. He turned on the music key, lock the doors and he left the house, the police. Obviously, looking for MR list, who is now a mass murderer, they do Some checking into his background because they had some evidence regarding the letter that he left them or for the past or more appropriately.

What led him to committing these crimes, who any talks a lot about being a christian and going to church and, however, ultimately, he commits a very on christian, like act to solve his troubles and not wanting to put his family through. Any trouble swell may be discussed this with them. First strike he chose he chose he chose to get a redo and didn't give them the option. For that now, what it appears to me to be captain- is it this family was living well beyond their means, and this has got to be primarily his fault he's the man of the I see the one that's in charge of paying the bill. those in problem- setting a budget for the household, his wife did suffer some type of illness, and I don't have that spirit- weekly here in my notes, but I know that she suffered some type of illness that cause there.

maybe even some dementia from her, where she would would act out at times in. This was a big reason. Why she was not attending the church like he had referenced in the letter. He does mention his oldest daughter in the letter saying that she had kind of fallen out of the church that she wanted to get into acting in that caused him to question her christianity, Danny also thought that maybe the more she got its act in the worst that would get for her christianity, correct and that, if not done this act when he did. Maybe would not have been received into Heaven, apparently Not only was he over spending and spending beyond the means of their income, but the mother lived Then, because this was such an expensive home that he had to go to her for money, whether

before the down payment or to pay the mortgage, probably both, but the agreement was she would live in an apartment? Did they basically furnished in the attic of this mansion quote, unquote mansion she lived there and He apparently at some point lost his job and rather than informing his family of this, it was for It was for many many months every day would wake up. in shower. He would get ready for work. Redress in a suit and tie, and he would leave the house and he would go to a local bus station anymore. sit there any would read all day long. Many would come home at the end of each day. now I'm sure. At times he was probably looking for work because he did it ultimately find work, but ones he had. The family was so far behind on its bills and behind in in debt that he chose to take.

The lives of his family and, like I said, give himself a redo but not given. buddy else. The option of this and a sad as it is, I mean it's horrible in it reminds us so much of the william Bradford bishop case that we discuss when we covered the fbi's most wanted list. It's a guide. did the same thing to his family into his mother. Just a couple years after this took place with the list family he shot John was shot all of his family members, with the nine millimeter gun and said in the letter from behind in a very cowardly way, leaving them split in the ball room in the mother, up in the attic where This ties to the case in the case of janet diploma, its tricky, it's really tricky to say but I feel like we needed to cover this into who give someone detailed description of this crime because it

be rare when you research the jeanette case when you researcher case it is, Rare to find any mention of her case without them referencing the list murders or john list in his family, while one because in this area these are the two biggest probably murder cases ever. syria and their happening less than one year apart, both on saw, at the time of the investigation, and then you have books that were found, it seems to be that there were things and with in the list home? That would suggest that the oldest daughter the one that was getting into acting in that John said was getting further from the church did. She may have been involved in some witchcraft or weaken type activity. Now it has been reference from her down areas entries that she made into her journal and books and materials that were found

within the home, this is the thai. This is what ties this too diplomas case you talk about satanism in the possibility of witchcraft. They even possibility that the Jeanette herself was involved in witchcraft books? Yes, where these books and that's right that will really that's it and that's. What sad is that this has reported that oh Police are now going to widen their investigation into the list martyrs because of genetic case. However, it's a lot of what we ve seen before in what we suspect with some of those newspaper articles regarding things. Were found at jeanette crime scene. Was it There's some sensationalism going on here. I am for first bomb. Mr list, you he's my friend use a piece.

but this has nothing to do with his daughter, probably was and arrested, and probably some spirituality stuff. She probably was doing some research ah curious now, just because you have some books on the shelf about a subject matter mean that your into that right, I mean like if somebody went to the colonels house right now, right there, I would go off I'll get were him, but they get past the one o gotta get past the five dogs worthy to does MR duff love or leave the dogs alone. Please. Islam Breaking my I would like to have my dogs. Will I get the while one might bite your head off, but then they get to the bookshelf right. pass all the porno mags they get. The bookshop there's no poured over exploited

it'll, just because you have all these books about serial killers and mass murderers and other doesn't make you one more. That's my point, and I think is it just the naivety of the of the seventies, where they just jump to these crazy conclusions or or is it what you said during our break that bleeds at leads Yeah- and I mean it's sad, but that's the truth- you know you You talk about some of the biggest murder case. cereal, murder and other wise throughout the history of the world. and what we have seen time and time again it sells newspapers and magazines people do tv shows about it and to go on it in a garage drink beer and try to figure things out or part of the problem. I guess we're prouder the problem here. Maybe I should have highlighted that for everybody, but in this, situation? Nineteen? Seventy two! neither of us were around and they

This is sensationalism, in my opinion, for these newspaper article in reality. What we do know is this: is there any chance that these cases or have any involvement, one another other than being from the same area in the same time period? Now I couldn't find anything to suggest it did the list family even knew the deposit family. Yet the other connection We're trying to make was that the oldest list daughter was into witchcraft and they did sciences and they did witchcraft activities, arts and crafts with which ran up at devil skull, and so that, therefore, that maybe she was loose

connected to genetic and that's not true writers. There is really no evidence that there was any kind of activity that happen at devils. Devils teeth is the. Is there any connection now, there's no connection with the list martyrs, but when you research this come on. Hearing about these murders in the might be connected, saw without was important, go through it at least especially if we run a reference them later, but it's one of those things captain you have to in this. You have to get over the fact that they are not connected to the list martyrs and you have to get over the fact that their it's a leaning towards that. It's more likely that witchcraft in neither was not involved in jeanette diplomas, murder, and once you get past those two things, those those little man, there venture on. Then you have to go, Should I think, that's when you can start to see what may be really truly happened here? Why did she

appear. Why did she go missing and, ultimately, why would she kill and are there other cases that are connected to this one? Yes, That leaves us here. Captain we have so much more to get too. There has been speculation that if this was not witchcraft or satanism, could it be? simply have ties to the mafia. Could this? Could she have been killed I a stranger or a friend or a boyfriend- was this. ultimately, some kind of cover up involving the police and This is going to lead us down the road of looking into some other murders that may be connected to genetic case. And we also have plenty of suspects to discuss as well, I therefore join us in the garage and turn a friend. We had no clue. This was gonna turn out to be, for it

It was kind of a last minute, punt situation right captain we got into this we're like wholly molly. There's a lot here on the surface. It doesn't appear to be such There is a lot more to get too. We appreciate everybody joining us this week in the garage. If you want to continue the chat go to true crime girl. dot com. We have our blog. There there's room for your comments in your questions there on our website array

next week, colonel you be good and captain you be kind and everybody please don't let this spring transform your outdoor space

into a regular gathering place for you in your loved ones, with help from actually whether you're into wicker, teak or driftwood inspired furniture, we ve got the look you're going for add an accessory like string lights and beverage tabs to take your patio party from basic to gear, aided and enjoy cosy evening vibes with a new fire bid, visit, ashley dot com or start by your local store and find affordable pricing and expert support today. Shop and save today only it actually.