In new orleans, twenty twelve bruce catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park What were the address should have been, he was shot and killed. I'm you d umbra, join me for the newest season of counter clock, as I die the motive behind bruces murder. a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now binge all fourteen episodes of or clock season, five, wherever you listen to pod, Whether you're looking to buy or sell with a remax agent they'll use their years of experience to help you plan for now and later from when this welcome to your new home baby girl turns into this beggar home, and this hate this place turns into

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welcome to through gram garage wherever you are whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is Just like the other members of instinct, he was not invited to the half time performance either. He is the captain. He too, if a tone, get to be seen and good to see you thanks for listing thanks, I'm afraid Today we are drinking war elephant by the fine, fine people over rushing duck brewing company garage grade three and three water bottle. Caps out of five together, as for the first time this weekend and it made my weekend great war elephant is a double ip and, as one might expect from the powerful name, it is a powerful beer with big flavour and a high a bv of eight point. Seven percent so enjoy responsibly. My friends and this the room was brought to us by this powerful garage crew. First up a big shall to man.

In misty, a couple of coworkers listening from watertown south dakota big shot out to kill us brooklyn ohio and I want to give a big thank you in a cheery made to Steve Alyssa in pink me Michigan and a big we live. Jib, tat, elizabeth and superior colorado and sending a long distance cheers to Linda all the way and king lake, australia and but not least, a garage grouping. Here we have a lena, Michael and also their friend, Mary Davis, at bennington college cheers made, and thanks for everybody for filling up the fridge this week. If you want to help us out with next week's beer, run, go to true crime, garage dot, com and click, the donor. But I've been to that college got waste We would also like to give one more shout out. This is the someone that Some of you are aware has contributed in helped. This show behind the scenes. It's the garages, dear friend, the skipper. We would like to congratulate him. He has been named the disk,

vice president, vice president for ohio, police and fire fighter retire ease. So, congratulations to the skipper are resident in the garage detective what more shut up go for a big shot out a big we like you, Jim to run a cup for sending me the fuss face the seventies fuzz pedal check out running cuff dot com today they make amazing, guitar and base affects pedals and followed true crime, garage on instagram and untapped, and if you want case updates and if you want to put in your thoughts and your opinions, check out our blog at true crime garage dot com captain, that is enough of the business everybody gather round, grab a chair grab a beer. This talk, some true grab

Monday august, seventh. nineteen, seventy two sixty year old, jeanette deportment told her mother. She was going to go to her friends house to say the afternoon. The friendly about eight miles away did not yet have a driver's license her mother to drive her, but it was nice that day, jeanette system on walking She left her home to shortly after one p m that day the plan

miles solo hike to the train station and then the train, drop her near by her friends home wild that was seen walking that day she never arrived at her friends house. Nor did she call. Its belief that she never even made it to the train station. She simply disappeared on September nineteen, after Jeanette had been missing for six weeks in one day, the discover of a rotting human forearm lead. LISA investigators to her body? discovered in the woods badly, decayed and resting on a cliff known as the devil's teeth, the coroner could find no signs of bullet or stab wounds after examining the body he could provide the police and the debate

a family with no cause of death for jeanette. police could offer no explanation as to why her body would be found in that location investigators suspected eggs are strangulation. Her death was being treated as a homicide, mainly because of where the body had been found. when the community needed answers the room or male began to generate stories about satanism in witchcraft. this only fuelled more gossip. How did this innocent teenage girl die? and if it was in fact martyr who had killed her and who knew about this Was she killed by a stranger the saw her walking that day or was it a friend. maybe a boy she knew or was it the mafia some kind of police cover up. This is again then you'd story of the bizarre death of sixteen year old genetic,

alma. The. as everyone may remember. From last week after they found jeanette body, the police were quick to identify her. However, they could not offer any Conclusive ass to how she had died or what the cause of death was, it's pretty We ask that the investigator suspected drugs early on statements from the investigator state that They located the body. Remember her pocket book was found near by. Obviously you check the pockets of her pants in the pocket book looking for identification maybe a driver's license school idea, or even a library card to tell you who this body may belong to, but the investigators were also

acting and looking for drugs on her person or in that pocket book or even evidence of possible drug use they suspected, either a suicide or possible accidental overdose from drugs. They found no drugs no evidence of drug use either they also locate any forms of identification on her putting a name to the body came later by the way of her dentists, comparing x rays and her dental history. More importantly, they would test the body for drugs, These tests provided no answers, only more questions, as there were no trace of drugs found in the body they did. However, and a high level of lead came back in these test, so possible lead poisoning, but I I don't That would explain why her body was found in the woods on top of a cliff

also. The amount of lead detected from these tests shows a level that, while it is quite high, it is not well, that is high enough to where you would commonly see death occur. So what does this all mean? Well, it certainly clears up one or two of them what seems to be very likely possibilities when you look at this case from afar, that being she didn't use drugs to kill herself and she didn't overdose on anything. Yet some party correct, so that might put to an end, the possibility of her showing up at that blood at the black s house dying. Something you know drinking too much or doing drugs and something happening to her, so it couldn't have been of an overdose. Now, while we cannot fool

determine if she was or not at the blackness home that day, this kind of clear that up in my opinion, why one wouldn't be uncommon to find a body. That's been on a ground that is a dumping ground for construction to have traces of lead because of their dumping construction items, their dumping paint wish have led in it and night and seventy two yeah, you bring up a very good point, because we have to keep in mind that her boy, he had been resting there for weeks before she was found and remember. We said that her body had sunk into the ground to the point that later, a girl that knew her and had visited this I'd just days after they were moved, jeanette body from the devil's teeth right she's there. She saying that she could see. She could still see the outline or the impression that the body had made in the ground and genetic body was badly decayed, so bad to the point that some have said,

oceans of her body in the clothing, had become one could portion of the body, ground have done the same or did elements height inner making up the ground below her seep into the body through osmosis serve, you know, leaving hide traces of lead later found. The body through us, moses. Here's the thing, though you did, that I dont think that they did captain and in your your exactly right, I I wondered: did they take soil samples of the area? It doesn't appear that they did. We can't find any record of that way, but it's as a dumping ground for construction and an if you ask the people that are dumping stuff. What did he dumped and they said what we use this paint, which has led in and we'd dumped it and to the soil, and then this body, found inches within the soil. What is good, what is it going to absorb that paint and was that paint gonna have in it lead? So it's pretty easy, I think, to explain. Yeah yeah

I think they could have gone. The extra mile actually went back to the scene and may be taken a soil sample. Couldn't hurt me instigation in any direction at all, but let's, let's you're on, because I think those are all reasonable explanations why these high traces of lead were found in her body I want to move on to a possible suspect here. Captain and this takes place about em. Month or so after Jeanette body was found a place. keep in mind by this time too. had already occurred in this case yeah. The rumour mill was turning out witchcraft stories and well. In the second thing, captain is it. The stories coming out in the newspaper were starting to take her off so lesson for me in either coming out or being presented. However, you choose to look at it. This is when a young do. This is twenty one year old, terry were cattle. He goes to the police department,

he tells them. There is something they should know about where jeanette body was found, he tells them that where she was found, is right by where someone lips terry told the detective about a homeless man that made part of the woods that is fairly close to where the body was found. While this this homeless man, He- he made it his home? You know he was staying there. Technically, he wasn't homeless, right yeah. I guess that's a contradiction right. This patch of woods is is the home to this homeless man and what's his cat's name, you know at camp. Didn't you mentioned something that you said while he's not really homeless? That makes me think of in old george carlin bit, who, who I miss dearly when he was good friends, you all very good friends, and we used to go picnic, in the park and he said that the george Carlin said that there are no such thing as homeless people, because home is a state of mind what the what they are as houseless right. So I

good memory of my good picnicking friend george Carlin, I, refer to the skies houseless so this year Man tells the police that some of the locals refer to this houseless man, as read then he has a like a shanty you're, a lean to or something that liese he's fabricated in the woods out here and he says that the man is called red because of his long red, hair and beard he's got a wild beard, not a kind of a hippie yeah. Looking guy yeah there you go and this guy does work, though he works, and I don't know how much. But, according to the book that we've referenced a few times the data at the devil's teeth, he worked several days a week at a local golf course. You know Cady jack looper, you know well the so yeah, so he's a cat

and he's working there for cash tips. He does. Sometimes you can make pretty good money doing that if the course is busy that day, yeah or if you're, not caddying for the dalai lama himself, hmm, this guy read, seemed to be pretty resourceful as well. You know we had said and mentioned that he had fashioned himself, some of dwelling there in the woods while he would sleep and he would also cook meals out there, and I don't think anyone really reported anything on this guy other than that he lived in the woods and he carried at the golf course in town he's referenced in several different accounts of the investigation into jeanette murder but it looks like other than the caddy thing. Nothing is really known of this guy now the suspicion falls because of the proxy. From his dwelling and where the ball he was found to further the suspicion. It sounds like

this guy read like he may have took off and laughed, which is a tricky thing, because when I think of houseless people I typically jumped to the thought in conclusion that there nomadic magic. You know moves around based off of kneader or be no right, but I- but I guess you know each is their own, so maybe that doesnt work with everybody, but will also get into this point right, because this is a big point of speculation Yet, as we have this guy that's living in the woods, that's where she has found a lot of people think that maybe she was traveling or something and that she went to these woods for whatever reason and then he attacked or their legs. She is too stumbled upon him at night right, There's a few different theories regarding that, but one thing I want it one thing I want to clear up right here before we get into this too much. Captain is ok, so I have some experience with this in an hour,

lots of people out there do as what do as well, but back on he's doing property management. There was plenty a times that I would have to chase off a guy from time to time. That was clearly just squatting in a place that he found for a night or two and there's a there's, a big difference here. This everything we hear from the police regarding this red guy. He seems have been living there. It wasn't like he just found place that he like it, he was gonna stay for a few nights or a couple weeks. This seem to be set up that he had arranged and he was planning to stay there for quite some time. The room being is that he would show up in town stay at this place. He had set up in the woods and he would stay there through the course of the golf season. And then he would kind disappear during the cold or months and then he would pop up again and he would stay in the same place. Jani did this for multiple year.

So before we get into this. I just want to clear up that you know people are going to set suggests. Well, maybe he was just staying there for a couple of nights. That's not the case here that the thing is is how suspicious is it that this guy took off because you got a wonder: did he take off the their several rumours that either a he took off Shortly after jeanette was murdered. This would be in august of seventy two b he took off shortly after her body was found, which would be in september of seventy two Now you have the maybe another possibility that have a shortly after her body was found, but once this report was given to the police, this is in october of seventy two they went out there in the woods. Looking for red, ready fat and all of his stuff they ve. Well, we don't know if it's all of his stuff, but they found some of his things there and they saw what they suggested.

As evidence that he might have left in a hurry like that there was food. The EU had prepared and just kind of left it there. The heating come and collect any of these items. seems to me like he might. I dont know his set up. That's hard, that's hard to gauge here, because he's the kind of guy that he's just going to leave these items behind in whatever happens, to be left over when he gets back there the following year. He makes use of what makes the most sense as let's go to the golf course and, let's say hey: let's try to figure out when's the last time that red worked. The problem with this, though, was that the caddies are quote unquote sub contractors, so they don't have like a technical work schedule, but I think, if you In our view, the members of the golf course you get a better time line, because nobody really knows the schedule, and it would it be that crazy

think so my living a nomadic life when he comes into town multiple times throughout multiple years, and then he goes off to work somewhere else. You don't know if he left a week before or two weeks before, right so they need to. They should of you know, ask the members of the golf course to try to get a smaller timeline yeah in what they did was they did go to the gulf horse and, like you said, he's a subcontractor whenever you want to refer to it, as the golf course didn't no his real name either. They just referred to him as red as well. He didn't he didn't work work for the golf course, though, the way that I understand it to be his back then these guys were just kind of show up randomly from. The time and they would sit there and wait for a golfer to come up and say, hey, I need a caddy and then they

their bag and follow along and get tipped at the end of the at the end of the round. So he didn't. You know he didn't in the sense work for the golf course- and I think you're right that would have been an interesting avenue to take is to talk to the actual golfer because you know how this thing works. Captain somebody's people when they know nothing when when they show up when these were golfers that are there, time and time again they may Ask for him by name right. Somebody may know his schedule, or at least the last time they saw him or he caddied for them. One. The other speculation here is that you know they find they find her body in the woods right and then this guy hits the hits the road Maybe it was just that they found a body in the woods and that scared the the crap out of him. alpha. If I'm living in the woods right down the river and they find a body, you think I'm gonna stay there

have standards of where I live. When I'm living in the woods, I have standards, and I can't believe in and woods that they found a body, and I love that cause. Thank you, and I share the same feeling on this, where you the rumour that this guy left after having killed her light, left in august after having killed her she's, not found he'll september you and I kind of lean towards the possibility that maybe was living there until closer to the time that they had found her or maybe even afterwards, while right, but they did track this guy down yeah. yeah they did in this is this is what's weird, I dont know the particulars of how they tracked him down, but they did identify him and they did eventually speak with him. Supposedly, this guy red must have checked out because either they have nothing on him, which could just be the case or either through questioning or some other technique. They let him go after.

Having cleared him, several online reports of this case will say that the guy was cleared personally. I question that, but this The the rumour mill is that red came from money and that when they went to look into this guy has a suspect. They ran into a situation where he came from a lot of money, filthy, stink, rich, and that is reason why we have thoughts of there being a cover up. Then he was going to lawyer up and they decided they couldn't fight the good fight and defeat this guy and trial he hour the people that he his family was so powerful that they stop them assocation. Anyway, that's a rumor it and it, but I would like to I would really like to explore why they cleared the guy design, seen online report stating that he was cleared, not that not that we do,

couldn't charge him with anything that all we checked into him and he checks out yeah. But again, this is a a weird time in history. Seventy two so late, sixties, seventies. You have a lot of people living in vans and traveling across the country, and this you know taken some time off to discover themselves and this guy could have came for money and said yeah, I'm just going to live off the land and I'm going to caddy during the day and and he could have went to visit some family or friends during this I'm where she went missing because, like there's a six week, gap right right out in the well, that's what I'm getting at, though with if okay, so if he supply you with an alibi, the trouble that you run to hear is I'm guessing the if you cannot determine the cause of death? then determining the approximate time of death is way out of the question, but so in less in some type of

In our view, he can sit down and say hey. I was in europe with bill todd, Tammy and Ethel backpacking through the hillside from august third to the thirtieth. No, I would question really any kind of alibi that you get from anybody on this to me, the alibi would be kind of a non factor. Here rightly, you said I mean the frustration with this cases. Okay, this guy that seem, like a plausible suspect. What is his alibi? My other thought would be. Is you know, backed in this? Is this? Is nineteen seventy two and this this would be a just. A total guess: I've never seen any evidence of this, but my thought would be think about nineteen. Seventy two, they put a lot of faith in the old lie. Detector test back then allow faith in the polygraph test back then, and if they really like this I or if they really wanted to try to clear him or real

we hone in on him they're going to try to get him to give a polygraph test, especially if he's cooperating during the the questioning portion right, and so maybe he took that test and passed the passed with flying colours and they're like our world done with you now one thing that in you references last week, I believe you reference the west Memphis three last week when we are talking about this devils teeth case An economy me remember something regard John douglas from the f b I's behavior science unit. Now, one thing that he said- and he said this in several profiles that he's given not all of them. This is not something that that runs across. board, but he gives us in several profiles and even gives it when he gives the criminal profile of whom he think may have perpetrated the west Memphis three case of any state and a lot of these cases that somebody but will pass this guy will pass the lie detector.

you could bring him and you could hook him up to the polygraph. He still killed her, but he will pass the test ray. I wonder I wonder if they use that to clear him in hearing that from John douglas makes. You suspect, I mean it's scary, thought of how many people throughout the years they may have used the polygraph test to clear them. and then it turns out they. They only pass the polygraph because Now they are murder, but they are truly truly a psychopath the in new orleans twenty twelve bruce catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist as he stood in the park what were the address should have been. He was shot and killed. I'm You d umbra, join me for the newest season of counter clock. As I die The motive behind bruces murder

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price on more annoying than normal chasm little under the weather under an over the, whether at the same the why I went on a boat in a big giant boat and were attacked by pirates, and I been sick ever since birth. So I want to bring up something here captain because there is something strange going on and we we need to point out the jeanette diplomas, murder and her cases really the only one of the time they goes unsolved. We have to fast or to nineteen seventy four, where we have girls getting killed it. What I've made it my notes here as an alarming rate in new jersey and nineteen. Seventy four: I want to bring up something in this. Is only taken from the new york times and we ve summer

as the article but thea. The articles headline is rights held for two girls latest of six slain, and this is from December thirtieth. Nineteen. Seventy for they had a catholic mass celebrating the lives of two teenage girls, two teenagers as it were, murdered hundreds of people attended the wake. While this is going on, there were detectives from three different counties: meeting all new the counties meeting Comparing notes on unsolved killings of six teenage girls. Now the church service, as for Joanne de Lombardo, fifteen years old or even carlucci, who was fourteen years old. They were I seen walking together on december thirteenth. They first went to a recreation centre, they left their and going to a nearby convenience store.

after leaving the store they disappeared into the night. Roughly two weeks later, their bodies were discussed, in a wooded area in manner, lap and township, new jersey. an examination reveal that both had been badly beaten and they die. As a result of strangulation. Both bodies were found partially nude and one of the girls still had a length of electric cord around her neck, father strand, o over, saw the services for the girls and he directed most of his sermon at the classmates of the dead girls telling them to live life, as it is, do not expect everything to be joyful, happy or pleasurable, don't look for constant climax has come, an highs turn away from drugs, grass and booze. So I think captain we we have to do with them, be murdered exactly I that you and I might have been right about something here. You know well, why do we

the priest using the sermon at the service of the murdered girls as a teaching moment for the other kids is more on and I think we got jeannette depalma. That is some of these rumours about her behaviour and about her character came about. If you start talking to kids at the services saying, stay away from drugs, grass and booze some of those kids, are thinking well. These two girls must have been doing Some or all of those things and that behavior may have led to their demise and is in that some form of victim blaming. I think so. Fourteen year old, girl and you're going to blame her, you know she's some drug addict. it's ridiculous, and even though we can't put together a cause of death for jeanette, there is good reason to suspect this. She had nothing. She is doing is what led To her her death rate, we can't we can't

find anything any big red flags. Anything standing out saying all this is this is some bad does she was doing or some bad people she was hanging out with. We can't find any of that. Yes, most likely heard trying to find a ride is what caused her so who are these other girls it that they are mentioning in this article part of these six girls that were killed? Nineteen. Seventy four well here's to more of a man in separate incidents first in january of seventy four and then in february of seventy four we have susie and garden. Who was just fourteen years old cynthia leslie eighteen years of age, both were out walking after susan was out walking after leaving her home and then Anthony who was out running errands. Both were found dead just day. after they were last seen, both strangle both partially clothed in bodies, left and wooded areas. Now neither of these

Girls had been sexually assaulted. This and over in dover. Township now want to take us to fry, august, ninth nineteen, seventy four and let's move to a place called north bergen this again in new jersey So now we are about twenty miles. North east of springfield, where jeanette was from just actually almost two years, almost two years, Actually from the day that jeanette went missing, we mary ann prior along with her friend Lorraine, Marie Kelly, marian priors, Seventeen years old and lorraine, Marie Kelly is she's, actually the days away from turning seventeen years old. They were planning you go to the mall walking to the mall according to priors, family This was around four in the afternoon when they left saying that they would be back a little for five p m, but they dont return run

mary Ands mother, calls the police and attempt to report that her daughter is missing. Well, captain you can play, but guess what happens here. so her mother and you know they're there told she not missing. Until it's been twenty four hours, we can't take a report such bullshit. So her mother in older sister go out looking for her and unfortunately they find nothing once the mud, is finally able to or shall we say, allowed to report her daughter missing. The police insists that she is a runaway and therefore is labelled as such on the report that data your job yeah. They did do so. looking for her. We have to be fair and state that one person they spoke with, among others, was la boyfriend. This is ricky molin arrow now Ricky fills the police and

some of the details of that evening. He says that he had picked the girls up and drove them for a portion of their trip. I'm guessing. Toward their destination, but dropping off along the way it sounds like two teenage girls had a few stops to make on their walk before returning home. Right Ricky tells the police that the plan was that he was going to pick them up at a predetermine location at approximately nine p m. That night ricky goes to the pick up point and his girlfriend Lorraine and her friend, Mary Ann. They never show up five days later on august, fourteenth nineteen, seventy four and twenty miles away. The two those bodies were found on a hill and mont veil. New jersey two girls, were naked and lying next to each other in this an account mainly taken from pixels in new york and checked with the new york times

its referred to as a hill, but it's more like this there's there's a parking. and then there's some woods near the parking lot, this is pretty much a small stretch of land between the parking lot in the woods. That's where the bodies were found so What I picture is someone pulling up pulling so the lot and a truck car pulling up in it to a little lands, there and unloading these bodies- and I carrying them or more likely dragging them one at a time from the vehicle and then Lang or placing them between the law. in the woods just to give you week, idea of what we are looking at the picks eleven headline, one of the. Recalls. Mention is says too sure rape and murder of two north bergen teens still mystery. Now the girls jeanette were found face down, and

then, just a couple pieces of jewelry. There was nothing on these girls and both were in shape, we, we signs of taunting and torture here bruising to the face and burn marks on them. Now these these would be small burn mark. So possibly cigarette burns both had been angled in due to ligature marks on the wrist and ankles. Some have suggested that they may have been haug tied. This is quite possible, but I want to throw this in their as a thought, rather than haug tied, and I mention this due to the time of death offered. Later by the medical examiner. So keep in mind the girls were missing for about five days. Well, the newspaper accounts says says: five days they d technically, went missing in the evening right and they're not found until later. There not found it,

what a morning time. So it's more like five and a half days. If you want to be technical about it right, well, the medical examiner, comes back with the day, had been killed between twenty five. war and maybe as long as forty eight hours before they were found this of these windows they give yeah. They were. There are killed within an hour to four days. Well, a kid can't get very difficult to determine its it's not like on tv, where they they stick a little probing somebody in their like this person was killed at three fifteen, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they were laying their the entire time, but they were just dead. For before to forty eight hours before being placed there so now we have. We have a window right, a rather big window of sixty. maybe over eighty hours of missing time time

The girls would have been alive but missing probably held somewhere. So I europe that may be rather than hog tied wrist to ankles, I suspect, tied to something may be more likely that ligature marks tied before they were killed, yeah that there were held hostage somewhere. These two deaths are very different in the sense that we see signs of torture and both were assaulted, sexually war with janet's death, I mean we still don't have a cause of death nets, couldn't be a big problem. So are these connected mean, I think one you have? Ah, women have the same roughly the same age, who's that connects them. Also, there, you know, ah traveling by foot hmm so that connects them. You know, are these connected? I I don't know if there's any way of us knowing- because we don't have you know to me- it'd be these would be

in a line- and that may be jeanette- was one of the first victims. You bring up something good there because you're right, we see if, if, if she, is in a series of murders that we just discussed here. You would see an escalation going on because it and it's tough with genetic kay because she was badly decomposed. We don't know what evidence we would be missing because of the time that her body sat there right by in these, and these two women's cases we have. You know the situation where there they're tortured the the rape there be in JANET's case. It could be a boys. This was one of the first attacks he had on somebody and he strangled her radiant strangle enough to break her typhoid bone right, but I do want to point out that there is a medical examiner that is quoted in that article regarding these six murder. Victims that are separate from genetic case

and this medical examiner in his opinion, is quoted as saying that the the killings are dissimilar, but the prosecutor, investigators, at the time they wanted to wait to make a conclusion until they had the opportunity to sit down together and compare everything that they had now they never come out at any point and say that these are absolutely connected. They're just stay, to the media that we are sitting down and working on these together, because We have an alarming situation. We have girls at or walking down the street there going missing and then their later turning up dead now if somebody that most of us are prob. He not familiar with and his name is rob. zog risky, now out of isa, rise if many of our new jersey, red residence even know who this guy is. This guy is a real problem: ok and

Look as as you can see. In the early seventies, a few counties in new jersey had a real problem. Now this guy zarinsky, he might not have been the single source of all of their problems, but I'll sum up What we know about him and I'll, let you be the judge, so Robert zarinsky was- worn in nineteen. Forty and at the ice age of eighteen, its body tat he had killed for the first time. This is a nineteen fifty eight. They think that he killed a cop. The story goes like this there's an officer charles bernard ski, so this officer responds to a burglary, that's in progress at the miller, pontiac card dealership, and away. New jersey, the officer when he arrives and he startles these two guys he's fired at and he returns fire now the officer was shot and killed at the scene. Finger

and were left in lifted from the crime scene. hang on to your horses calving. As this is strange. Forty, one years later, they identified the fingerprints and match them to a man by the name of theodore, shifter, now turns out. The schiffer was at the pontiac dealership there night way back in nineteen fifty eight, he was there with his cousin robbers, a risky and wood. Officer caught them there they shot at all. officer. The officer managed to actually shoot both of these men that night too, for him and yet We find a way to get away and too thousand ones, a risky sister testified at court. They And her mother had removed bullets from both robbers, a risky and his cousin that night boys telling them that night did they had shot at a cop.

Risky was tried for this, like we said in two thousand and one, but it was not successful. He was acquitted of the charges out. Ok, only of his fingerprints. Well, they have his cousins fingerprints, her finger, aren't we actually vowed and they they tie him there because of what his sister states about removing the bullets from the two of them and the two telling the story- hey we shot at a cop tonight right but sir one, a piece of the evidence is lost to see if he has a bullet wound, as is find out if he we're been shot before yeah. I dont know if they till it that avenue, I would guess the day right, but then, if you have been shot before and you claim her sister didn't take it out of you. Can we see the doctors report from which hospital you went to take his bullet out of you.

you should have been the prosecutor and I'll. Tell you why? The reason why they pick the part that that case and they couldn't sentences guy was because they discredited the sister they, you know they basically tore her apart and her life apart and stated. You know you can't trust this woman's. Story? Jesus sleazy she's pleasing woman, she's, easy here, believe a word. She says, but you bring up some some good things are now this dude serenity, of course, you can see that he's to be a career criminal. You know he and he did you know he had things like robbery, arson, a lot of that sort of thing. In his background, in on his record by nineteen sixty five, it's believed he started killing women and girls, but this didn't catch up to him until nineteen. Seventy five. So is it

whence it in just one year. After these six female victims were killed, then it he's finally locked up and they stop the killing. Tom he was given a life since for the nineteen sixty nine murder of rosemary man, I'm gonna butcher. This last go for holland. calling drill. Oh, nice. Shot try buddies Fortunately, I apologize to her and her family. She was only seventeen years. All she was from atlantic highlands, new jersey, but it's not just that simple. caused. Kerensky was indicted for the nineteen sixty eight murder of joy do rare just thirteen years old. But this wasn't until two thousand and eight. Now he ends up dying in prison before the trial could start and then either crazier after his death. This didn't take

until two thousand and sixteen d d Evidence connected him to the nineteen sixty five murder of merrick Linsky, who was eighteen years old. He was all a prime suspect and for other murders of young women and teenage girls from the years. Nineteen sixty nine to nineteen. Seventy four and this increase. the martyrs of two that we discussed here, this Doreen Carlucci in an joanne delano these The two that were walking together to them all right, it looks to me like if I had to pick somebody just based off of previous crimes, other activity that we know they were up to and being in the area at the time. I think that he probably killed these two girls, I'm not convinced that he killed the other four. I certainly don't. I certainly don't really think that he killed jeannette depalma. While who knows him and his

he's a serial killer. But I write any it's not as roma possibility right. Any certainly belongs on the suspect list, certainly for those that include a serial killer our theory or an unknown serial killer theory when discuss in genetic death is definitely also on the list of pieces of sheer daddy is captain. I you know suspect it had robert killed jeanette that there would have been signs of the cause of death. there would have been some marks. Some indication, that she might have been tortured before being killed, and I mean I know she was badly decayed, but I think it would have been an obvious homicide because Robert zarinsky. I mean he left the item strangled girls with at the dump. Scenes

and even on their bodies yeah. He was a real genius and that's why I question the autopsy a lot, because I know that she was badly decomposed, but I just go back to the fact that maybe this person didn't have enough experience. Maybe this person just didn't do their job that weekend, but it just seems like Those are the things that were missing. They can really help this case and I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Their captain. I think I mean smells little far me well, but your talking about. I think you're right that the person made Had the right experience and the reason why that comes to mind is because the six weeks between that and she went missing and then the body being found. I think that a law was left from there a lot was lost,

over that portion of time and that somebody with less are experienced didn't know what to look for or didn't know who to go to to ask the appropriate questions, and I dont have the person's name here in front of me. The they act coroner or medical examiner or whatever you want to call them at the time I do know is that the person was a and appointed it was similar to the farming malik situation, where it was somebody that was appointed the position. It wasn't a position that they applied for and sat in front of medical boards. earned the position. It was an appointed position. It was a practising physician. The person was a doctor that did tell deposition, but not a trained from what I could find, not a trained pathologist. So you, you might be honest, something their weak. We could be missing the cause of death simply because this person giving the

examination may not have had the proper amount of experience, I do want to kind of move towards a high note, Maybe I should be bigger than this, but I'm I'm not so I am happy to report that the the guy that we were just talking about robber, serene ski, is under dirt. Like we had said he had passed away, is under dirt, where he belongs. He died latent too thousand in eight in prison. He had pulmonary fibrosis. This is a disease that makes it increasingly difficult to breathe, Oh, I guess that I'm not bigger that. I wish I was bigger than this, but I'm not. I hope it was hell for him at the end. This is idea is killing people by strangulation right yeah, so I mean the universe karma, sometimes as a bitch that chokes shia, really slowly. For a long time. Well in may be fitting in a way that that was how he passed away, but

There is a right that we bring him up because he's a he's, a lesser known, likely serial killer? And there is that theory of an unknown serial killer, having worked the area may be jeanette part of series. Maybe she was not a victim in that series, One thing that I would encourage people to do is, I think that is a risky could be a likely suspect for a victim. That's named john. kramer and now she's, not somebody that we discussed here and some People have have been led to believe or some people believe that there is a possibility that Joan kramer's death is in fact connected to Jane ass in some way, and we have not discussed that death Here, but I would encourage people to check that out in the book that we keep bringing up the death on the devil's t ugly. We gotta talk with jesse tomorrow. yes and the thing here so captain I do want to cut a rap. A few things up, you know, as we ve gone through

all these different theories and in all this watson rumours that we're out there regarding jeanette palma and what could have happened to her. You know we ve talked a wheel. We spent the last half hour talking about this possible unknown serial killer idea. We talked about what happened here to the man that Brought up robert, the risky, We ve figured out. What we failed to mention here is some of the other theories that we discussed one of those being that one of the blackest brothers had disposed of genetic body this thing happened to her at that at that so called party that night and one of the blue Just brunner brothers left her there in the woods now I do want to clear up one thing: we kind of we kind of put the key on that because we're stating know there were no drugs found in her system, second of all. So why would you dump a body that so my o deed, but again

if the person doesn't know how to do their job and do the autopsy right. Maybe- don't know there were drugs in our system or not what I don't think he conducted those tests. and I dont have the information- ok right in front of me- I think you I think he sent that was sent off. I think it was in a way that This is going to sound very crude and I'm sorry, but it's it's. What happened? I think, because I held the key. the body was that he had to remove a piece of flesh from a remaining the flesh from the body that was sent off for testing. Now I I dont, have you know I'm not a doktor, I don't play. on tv, I don't pretend opportunity, but I do want to play this out for my limited knowledge on how this stuff works, it's mine, understanding that that the manner that they

perform that test by cutting off a piece of the flesh and sending it off is not the preferred way that they that they would like So this right, so that tests could be ink close if it could be and could be wrong, but there is, speculation and rumours and and some some loose evidence to prove that she left the house. So that would kinda well mother's a couple people. They said it that's what they believe, you know the day they heard from other people. You know these are people of the same age that go the same school saying, hey I from so, and so they should. showed up there that night, the she showed up there that either now. There are a few police officers out there and we reference last week, stating that You know regarding the blackest brother theory is well wouldn't work. The jeanette palma case, because I'm ninety percent sure, that this blacklist other and I'm gonna refrain from using his first name had some

thing to do with this. That left her body in the woods and he died, he's passed away and it was in the late eighties, early eighties or early nineties, and so therefore, dive of drug overdose. I do now I don't know all I know is it because if he did and there's no more weight to the store, all I know is that he's passed away in their stating, you know, look the guy he believed it did this or that had something to do with. This is dead and gone So there is no point in investigating that theory any further. We talked about the homeless, the house, this man. Excuse me read that theory: he Did you know we question how they cleared him? He has. asked away as well. They found him in the woods he and another dwelling that he had put together, and I believe this would have been about twelve years, twelve or fifteen years after the jeanette. The palma case is still

all searching. He was still do in his thing in the woods there and a different part in new jersey, and he was found, and I believe it was an ax. It was ruled an accidental death and the less case that we covered. Yes, the conclusion of that for the listeners that were wondering. Oh yes, sir john list, after having killed his mother, wife and children and nineteen seventy one He was on the run for seventeen, and a half years is ass during that time. He had relocated a couple of times, moving to michigan than to colorado and onto virginia aware. Was apprehended in living under the alias of robert Peter clark, going by robert Peter Clark, three first names I didn't pick up on. Eight, he did go by bob for short, now! That's very bob clark during this time. On the run, he had married again

He was arrested in june of nineteen eighty nine in richmond virginia the now give a brief, a brief story. This cause it's kind of its quite lengthy, actually, but this is one of my favorite kind of old. True cried stories that I'm very fond of its it. It's a story that I read many years ago and some of you might be familiar with this, but for those of you that are not job, this was actually apprehended and, in large part, to the America's most wanted tv show they had presented his case at least one time multiple times, I believe and to the point where they they made a bust of what John John list would probably look in nineteen. Eighty nine now, one of his neighbours a person they had lived with her. yeah. I remember the service it yeah summit,

It had lived near him in colorado, called america's most wanted and said. Look. I know this dude, he looks exactly like him he's a weird guy he's the same age and he's one by this name and whose first names he and his wife moved to richmond virginia and they later tracked him down now the crazy, here, though, captain is john list he for like it was like an for ninety nine months. He nine being john less names like nope, I'm robber, Peter clark, I'm right Peter clock. You have to prove that I'm not this person that I've been living as for at least seventeen and a half years, whether he does the crazy son of a bitch that decide and I'm gonna kill everybody my family, because I'm afraid there go

on the other way around I've got so if I kill them now, they're gonna go to god right now, yet pure insanity and it's what what baffles me and all these satanic panic cases is those are. There is a lot that we have talked about, or that are popular cases like the west memphis three, for example. Don't you think these lake, very religious people, killing their whole family cases should be a little? the more popular to warn people right right I mean, but but often what we see in these situations as we if somebody that, probably especially with John listless use, just use him as the I'm example, but in this ample. We see somebody that is a complete psychopath and is it then to use religion, God's name and have in as some kind of excuse score. Or some reasoning behind something that the rest of us do not want to have comprehend. Why? Because it was a piece of shit anyway,

a believer in god anyways I am all for religious rights and spiritual beliefs. You know, and a healthy manner, though well too, to come. Wrap this up, though the way that they and remember he was going to stick to his guns and and say that he was robert Peter clark and way that they did identify him robber, peter clark trio yeah. If the one man band they they found his old. from his old military records when he, a young man. They finger print you when you go into the military. Well, they compared those think fingerprints fought with his his fingerprints and they matched em up. So you can get Yeah got can't get out of that. So he was past heavily identified as john list. Remember, He left that letter to his pastor. Their kind o was a confession. member, he said exactly why he did, but, like you are saying, is less of a commission

fashion and more of an excuse excuse and putting some packing up his reasoning or what he did, but why, bring that up, because at trial they use that letter against him as a confession and then his here attorneys pointed out that they couldn't use it, because that was something that he left addressed to his past. And they have that relationship here they have the confidence between the two of them can be brought up in and core. Don't worry, They they had no problem convicting him and- Unfortunately, he Given the there, the worse penalty he could face at the time was five life sends is so

it couldn't. They couldn't give him the death penalty. They couldn't give him anything more than five life sentences, but that's what they did in the John lisk case of John Lewis still went by Robert Peter Clarke. All three got what they deserved in prison. till next time be good, be kind and don't let her the.